Cassette's Not Dead, Apparently! [Archive] - Page 2

Beechwoods

29-07-2009, 20:50

Elcaset machines were also produced by Technics, but it was killed by the fidelity and convenience of compact cassette, particularly in conjunction with Metal tape that came out just a year or so later. I wrote a few words about it here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=875) a while back...

While Elcaset only ran at 3¾ips it had the advantage of using proper Type II tape, which gave it an edge over reel to reel which only utilised Type I formulations. I really need to do a critical head to head versus my other machines, but it does sound fantastic, very low s/n very solid and dynamic - I have an original Sony 'Demonstration Tape' - the only pre-recorded Elcaset tape manufactured - which sounds amazing, and very funky - Japanese Lounge Jazz wah-wah version of Also Sprach Zarathustra - fantastic!

DSJR

30-07-2009, 09:30

Our EL7 was thrashed to within an inch of its life and not once did it ever chew a tape, even though the pressure rollers were caked. the tapes seemed to last well also. I do seem to recall that the tapes weren't at all cheap.

SA-CD? I still reckon the main reason for "improvements" in this format are careful remastering and even more careful recording and presentation of new classical material. the added 20 - 40KHz mush may have a lot to do with it as well, giving a false sense of extended frequency range..............

AudiOH!

31-07-2009, 13:22

- show me the oscilloscope that measures musical emotion.

I played the clip that Alex provided earlier in this thread. It brought a smile to my face and yes, even a tear (of joy) to my eyes:) Maybe I should change my forum name to Oscy:lolsign:

Enjoy the music:doh:

Les

The Grand Wazoo

31-07-2009, 13:47

I played the clip that Alex provided earlier in this thread. It brought a smile to my face and yes, even a tear (of joy) to my eyes:) Maybe I should change my forum name to Oscy:lolsign:

Enjoy the music:doh:

Les

Hehehe,
Maybe you're onto something there - So it can be measured after all, but not with a scope, just a measuring jug. That was a one tear performance!!

AudiOH!

31-07-2009, 14:32

Really. Any discussion that supposes that magnetic tape is the more stable archival vehicle than CD is not serious. MHO. And, as far as I can tell, the HO of the entire professional music industry, which is saving the history of music from the stability of magnetic tape by archiving it digitally.

Tim

This item might be of interest

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8172568.stm

Regards

Les

AudiOH!

31-07-2009, 15:05

No no no, thrice no.

You're all way off the mark, as any one with ears to hear will tell you the only real recordings are those made in the true golden age of audio before the advent of such artifice as electricity:-
http://www.sandybrownjazz.co.uk/forumclpgsrecordings.html
:smoking:

ps I bet they all had a ripping good time, don't ya know, daddy-o:lol:

http://www.clpgs.org.uk/

Oh JOY! More smiles, more tears:lol:

Les aka Oscy the human Oscilliscope!

twelvebears

31-07-2009, 15:16

Following my previous post, (particularly the last line)....

Well following the excellent purchase of a excellent condition DR-2 for £89, my following acquisition of a Sony TCK71 (3 heads Sendust and Ferrite, closed loop drive) for £26 also seems to be a good one.

Heads and rollers need a clean but other wise it's in lovely 'one careful owner from new' condition.

Now where am I going to put it?........

I paid a visit to Alex who kindly tuned up my DR-2. Excellent, lovely....

But then he did a head-to-head demo with his Aiwa XK-S7000

Now I consider myself to be something of a Hi-Fi geek, and one who had quite and interest in cassette 'back in the day' but this model? It would have never even have registered on my radar. Certain Naks, yes. Monster Teac machines like the Z6000 and Z7000, yes. Even early Aiwa like the AD-F990, but this one from the early 90s would never have caught my attention.

Well on Tuesday night it did, big time!

So much so that, er... ermmm...

Well let's just say that it's not just the Sony I have to find space for.

Oh crap.

But on the plus side, it only cost me £74. :eyebrows:

Beechwoods

31-07-2009, 15:38

I'll be doing some serious 'tidying up' of my den this weekend to make room for my latest deck... sounds like you might be doing likewise! Happy days :)

AudiOH!

31-07-2009, 15:39

This is weird?? :scratch:

Technics owners are known worldwide for buying their gear on spec's rather than sound.

Feels a little like enjoying a picture of a great strawberry cake.
:lol:

Just joking now.
Don't censor me.
;-)

"dolph"

I bought mine because the opinion of people I trust was /is that it is a great sounding deck at a ludicrously low price. I have heard nothing on my unmodded deck (though I am not as experienced as some) that makes me think otherwise.

Regards

Les

AudiOH!

31-07-2009, 15:58

It is also no guarantee that longevity of experience correlates directly with genuine accumulated knowledge Marco.

50 years experience or 1 years experience repeated 50 times?

Les

twelvebears

31-07-2009, 16:09

I'll be doing some serious 'tidying up' of my den this weekend to make room for my latest deck... sounds like you might be doing likewise! Happy days :)

Yeah well if only I HAD a den! I am, in fact, in mid-preparations for a house move on the 11th August which means the flat is full of boxes and the space I actually have can only accommodate my existing set-up...

Basically all the 'new' stuff I've acquired is currently safely boxed up in the boot of my car.

Items recently collected and awaiting a proper home are:

Nak DR-2
Sony TCK71
Aiwa XK-S7000
Meridian 206 CD transport

I will NOT be buying anything else!!

I can't. The boots full. :doh:

The Grand Wazoo

31-07-2009, 16:40

Yeah well if only I HAD a den! I am, in fact, in mid-preparations for a house move on the 11th August which means the flat is full of boxes and the space I actually have can only accommodate my existing set-up...

You'll never make it to the new house - those bleedin' speakers will kill you first if you have to move them again!

Sympathies on the hassle of the house move - I've got a big shitty van booked for this weekend, so I know what you're going through, mate.

Good luck!!

twelvebears

01-08-2009, 16:32

Cheers Chris, likewise I hope all goes well for you.

Susy now knows about the Hi-Fi collection in the boot and fortunately it's bargain basement price means we're still on speaking terms.:)

Other good news is that I've dragged the XK-S7000 in and it seems to be in good order. Fully functional, clean cosmetically and sounds pretty good even playing a very old Rose Royce tape...

Heads and rollers need a bit of a clean obviously but that's par for the course.

Quite a chunky machine physically. Certainly seems well put together.

aquapiranha

19-08-2009, 22:11

Cassette may not yet be dead, as can be seen here... a bargain for tape heads?

METAL (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIVE-x-TDK-MA-90EB-METAL-CASSETTE-TAPES-RARE-AND-NEW_W0QQitemZ160356910324QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Con sumer_Professional_RL?hash=item25560444f4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

michaelhigh

18-10-2010, 20:40

Barry

18-10-2010, 23:43

I still have 1000+ cassettes, I still listen quite a bit, but don't make compilations as I once did often. I even wore out a Philips CDR I bought used for $125 at a second-hand store making dupes and comps... It is cool seeing the yunguns scrambling for blanks in the thrifts, and it's good to see that the medium isn't totally washed up. I make sure to use good gain structure, store them properly, never play them more than once a day (per tape of course), and they seem to hold up well. I have a little bit of everything (media-wise) except rtr, and even have a few 8-tracks on my "B" rig just for fun...

1000+ tapes! :eek:

Good grief - I though I was overdoing it with (only) 200+.

Despite enthusiasm for the medium shown by the likes of Nick (Beechwoods) and Alex (Nikitin), I have largely abandoned the use of cassette - apart from a Nakamichi machine connected to the TV to record the occasional performance.

Regards

Reid Malenfant

19-10-2010, 14:52

Good grief - I though I was overdoing it with (only) 200+.
I must have a couple of hundred as well :eyebrows:

I switched to a different type of cassette for audio recording once i realised i'd be daft not to - Hifi VHS video recorder. I must have a couple of hundred video cassttes with about 6 hours of music on each one ;) I used that constantly until i bought a CD recorder unless what i was going to record was longer than 80 minutes.

I really have no idea why other people didn't think of using a video, after all it has an amazing signal to noise ratio (up there with CD) as well as sub 20Hz to over 20KHz response with zero need for noise reduction :) It's similar to a reel to reel operating at 2M per second :eek:

Barry

19-10-2010, 17:07

Reid Malenfant

19-10-2010, 17:13

I don't think I could put up with all that 'faffing about' to try and find a particular track out of 6-hour's worth. Anyway video cassettes are just too bulky - they're bulkier than four C90 cassettes.

Regards
True, finding an individual track isn't the easiest, but i tend to listen to albums so just use search to find whatever.

They may be bulky, but it's less faffing than any real to real & better quality. That's got to be worth something :eyebrows: Don't think of it as a cassette replacement & it all looks rather rosy :)

Barry

19-10-2010, 17:36

True, finding an individual track isn't the easiest, but i tend to listen to albums so just use search to find whatever.

They may be bulky, but it's less faffing than any real to real & better quality. That's got to be worth something :eyebrows: Don't think of it as a cassette replacement & it all looks rather rosy :)

I think that might be a moot point. I might have a go at trying this out; you would have to explain how the audio is recorded as though it was video. VCRs use a conventional head past which the tape traverses at 1 7/8 ips for the audio track. Would be interested to hear how that compares with 1/4" tape running at 7.5ips.

Regards

Reid Malenfant

19-10-2010, 17:43

I think that might be a moot point. I might have a go at trying this out; you would have to explain how the audio is recorded as though it was video. VCRs use a conventional head past which the tape traverses at 1 7/8 ips for the audio track. Would be interested to hear how that compares with 1/4" tape running at 7.5ips.

Regards
Hi Barry, on a Hifi video the stereo recording heads are on the rotating drum along with the video heads, i can't remember which uses a deeper layer, either the video or audio? ;) As the tape is wrapped round the drum for more than 180 degrees at least one head is always in contact with the tape. It's the rotating drum that gives the equivalent speed of nigh on 2M per second :)

E2A:- Some japanese manufacturer actually made an ADC/DAC so that digital info could be fed into the stereo audio heads, i can't remember who the heck it was though. Also the are the DVRs from the likes of JVC that were digital & had similar to the above built in. Take it from me, you'd be amazed at the audio quality from a Hifi stereo video recorder, any that have Nicam splashed on the front should in theory do the trick, if it says "hifi" then there is no question about it ;)

dave2010

20-10-2010, 20:13

Take it from me, you'd be amazed at the audio quality from a Hifi stereo video recorder, any that have Nicam splashed on the front should in theory do the trick, if it says "hifi" then there is no question about it Not really sure about this. I had a Philips VCR which seems to fit your description, and it was really good for picture quality, and the recordings made were excellent. However I think it developed a fault, and perhaps it wouldn't even work for audio now. I did think of dumping it, but it's still around somewhere. Suppose it could be worth just one last try to see if it's good for anything, though I suspect that if it gave up on video (I can't remember exactly how) that it wouldn't do audio either. I guess sometimes you just have to let go!

I guess anyone who wants to try this can pick up a Hi-Fi Nicam VCR perhaps in reasonable condition from eBay - currently there seem to be around 10 on offer - prices around £25-£50 including postage/carriage.

Reid Malenfant

20-10-2010, 20:27

If the video is gone then so is the stereo audio :( It's probably a head alignment thing, take it from me that it's vastly more complicated than any cassette deck. However it could just be that the heads need cleaning, this isn't an easy job either as you'll need to remove the top cover & then get at a few awkward bits whilst being very careful.

The audio quality is every bit as good as CD when everything is in alignment & working as it should be. I know that if you check on any specs for a decent hifi video recorder you'll find 90Db+ of S/Noise ratio & response from 20Hz to 20KHz though they'll go above & below that with a flat response unless filtered.

There is no noise reduction on any of these players, they don't need it as the background is as quiet as a CD due to the high effective tape speed (fast spinning drum but slow moving tape). They don't put tracks longitudally down the tape (except for the fixed heads), but in very close diagonal strips, this is why the drum is tilted & spun at a fairly high speed.

Beechwoods

20-10-2010, 20:35

The problem I always had with VHS and Beta-HiFi audio was that if the head drifted only slightly out of alignment, you'd start to hear the affect of the 'frames' as the head failed to track the striped signal properly. Drop-out was also often catastrophic rather than merely irritating. While on paper Beta-HiFi in particular had excellent S/N and frequency response credentials it doesn't compare with 7½ IPS open reel, or good (metal / chrome) cassette, IMO. For archiving open reel beats the pants of video tape, and indeed DAT (I've had horrible experiences with drop-out on DAT, even after only a couple of plays, or only one pass :ugh:!)

Reid Malenfant

20-10-2010, 20:47

Hi Nick, yes the alignment must be bang on or it's not so hot admittedly ;) Just think of it like fettling an LP12 every so often :lol:

It's to do with the distance between the fixed head just before the tape hits the drum, this puts the timing signal onto the tape. Then you have the angle that the tape goes accross the drum at as well :eek:

But then why the hell did Nagra make what is in effect a digital version of a reel to reel, similar to DAT if it didn't work..

As i say, keep things clean & in alignment & it is a wonder to behold :)

Beechwoods

20-10-2010, 20:50

I've not had any personal experience of the Nagra D, but assume they designed it to very tight operating tolerances, and it needs regular fettling to keep in good order! Forum member Lodgesound has a Nagra D if I remember correctly, and may be able to shed some authoritative light on the subject...

Lodgesound

21-10-2010, 15:19

Hi Nick;

The Nagra D is a specific digital format and is extremely rugged and reliable just as all Nagra's were because they were designed for field use in highly varied conditions.

The thing that most struck me about the D was just how good it actually sounds - whether you record tapes and play them back or just use it as a standalone D/A converter.

Apart from a software system that takes a little getting used to they are a joy to use and to hear - there will be one in the speakers room at the bake-off show on Sunday week being used to drive a pair of BBC/Rogers LS 5/8 speakers if anyone wants to hear it in action...

Pete The Cat

23-10-2010, 18:44

I feel guilty that I did a deal to buy my mate Dave's Yamaha KX580 off him for £20 while we were trolleyed at a festival a little while back. More Dolby NR types than you can shake a stick at and perfect for copying off cassette via PC to FLAC. Suddenly I'm listening to John Peel's 1979 Festive Fifty all over again... :)

Pete

TheVillageIdiot

03-04-2012, 16:52

Still use cassettes in the car occasionally - less fiddly than the mp3 player, never need recharging and in my rust-bucket sound quality doesn't really come into it!

Hope it's not built-in, and if so, then at least something that's easily detachable, what a PITA to demag and clean the heads if not and hope it doesn't break.

Btw. for that reason, I got myself, a nice vintage portable cassette deck from ********, amazingly good sound, considering it was from the more 'primitive' era of cassette decks.

Mods, and Marco, please forgive me if I am resurrecting a 'dead' thread, I am a wannabee cassette fanatic, and I've had a lot of fun reading this thread.

TheVillageIdiot

03-04-2012, 17:05

What I CAN tell you is that cassettes are noisy, unreliable and even well stored, anything but metal (type IV formulations) will lose treble output after a few plays and especially after a few decades in storage. Still got a box full as proof..

Did you demag and clean the heads 'frequently' enough?

I used to have that problem myself till I learned to demag and clean the heads religiously 'frequently' enough. Never had that problem again ever since.

Give me a decent high-speed reel to reel, DAT and, better still, a decent CDR anyday (accepting that even some of those can be unreliable if you're unlucky).

Actually, I was interested in DAT for a while till some very learned and informed people warned me about unreliability of DAT tapes.

Beechwoods

03-04-2012, 17:09

I couldn't agree more re. DAT... not a great archive medium by any stretch. I had / have a player, but use a hi-res file-based recorder for digitally archiving stuff now. Providing you keep backups, this is way to go...

TheVillageIdiot

03-04-2012, 17:21

....only there as the compromise to bring that micro dynamics out of the closet that digital encoding can't.[/b]

I call that 'magic'. Please Marco, I didn't mean it as an insult. A term of endearment.

Sorry to read about people who never understood how to record and treat tapes and what machines to go for to get the best out of them.

"dolph"

You wouldn't believe how many people who used the tapes don't even know the importance of demag and cleaning the heads, and even worse, those who do know don't demag and clean them.

TheVillageIdiot

03-04-2012, 17:34

a tiny bit of tape hiss in the background but enjoyable,

Actually, hiss doesn't bother me (within reason), actually I kinda 'like' it. What bothers me is the 'pop and crackle' from LP, which drives me nuts.

TheVillageIdiot

03-04-2012, 18:44

How old are you guys?

43

I have CDR's going back around 15 years so far and don't have any failures as yet.

What was your secret?

All my cassettes not recorded on metal tape have Dolby B mistracking errors - Ah:doh: I've just realised that you purists didn't use Dolby,....

No, I don't. Sucks the 'magic' out of music.

....
so if the treble gets shaved off it won't be as noticeable :ner:.....

I'm sorry, I don't understand your implication. My experience has been that music without dolby has more treble than music with dolby on. So how could music without dolby be less sensitive to treble loss than music with dolby on?

But what about the hiss I ask?

Oh, I don't mind it at all (within reason), I actually kinda 'like' it. I've personally never had problem with hiss, only exception being, a cheapo deck that has been beaten to death playing cheapo pre-recorded cassette that's been beaten to death.

Well, if you don't think vinyl has a problem, then a noisy cassette won't be too much of a problem I suppose :lolsign::smoking::cool:

Well, actually, I do have problem with LP 'pop' and 'crackle', drives me nuts. Which is one reason I was really neven taken up with LPs.

TheVillageIdiot

04-04-2012, 04:25

TDK metal tape with die cast aluminium housing, Type MA-R

These are cassettes of TDK MA metal tape housed in a cast-aluminium body. These tapes run more smoothly than versions using the conventional housing, and are thus very good for copying piano, where the slightest trace of wow and flutter can be intrusive. Barry

Would cast-aluminium body be better than ceramics used in TOTL Sony cassettes?

ursus262

04-04-2012, 09:56

Here is mine, a DCC recorder:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-o8wja0M0C-M/T3sEE03IVkI/AAAAAAAAD9c/AYWsnbQVgsY/s822/IMAG0120

Alex Nikitin

04-04-2012, 14:24

Sorry chaps 1/4'' x 7.5ips is the only acceptable tape speed for me in the home hence R+R or nothing..

I've used a cassette deck at 3.75 ips as a secondary source at the recent hi-fi show in Weybridge. Perhaps you should listen to a deck like that - you may change your opinion on cassettes ;) .

Apologies for the picture quality.

Cheers

Alex

Beechwoods

04-04-2012, 14:48

If your going for machine to record with at least buy something like a Wega Elcaset machine (1/4'' x 3 3/4ips) which were extremely close to a semi pro open reel..

The Wega is a lovely looking machine, very rare, I've only seen one once since I started keeping an eye out for them about 3 or 4 years ago. They're really only a badged EL7 with a black fascia though. Not that that is a bad thing!

The thing that cassette has over reel to reel, are the benefits of developments like Metal and Chrome tape formulations, and biasing / eq to take advantage of this. Developments like Dolby HX-Pro also allow the medium to punch well above it's weight. Now if the market had allowed similar development of consumer reel to reel, or for Elcaset to take off, that would have been particularly excellent for us tape heads :)

trio leo

04-04-2012, 17:18

Back in the 80s I spent what to me was a lot of money on a Teac Tascam C3 cassette deck, being a 3 head machine it was sold to me because I could not tell between the record source and the recording I was listening to, it was built like a tank,I really loved using that machine, at the time I used Ampex professional tapes, with great results.
Unfortunately I had to sell it.

Years later I bought a Yamaha KX 530, which to be fair is a smashing machine and I haven't used it for about 5 years, however last week I plugged it in again and I'm going to do some more recording to cassette, then I will put a cassette player in my classic car, I have about 2500 7" singles from my motown/pop era, I'll enjoy taping some of those memories.

regards Al

Beechwoods

04-04-2012, 17:22

Recording vinyl to cassette is like have a warm bubble bath with candles and the rest :) A very enjoyable passtime ;) Enjoy!

Rare Bird

04-04-2012, 18:00

Alex: I used to own a Tascam 122 & 234 cassette machine with higher speed..

Nick:
All that Metal & Chrome never bothered me, it bothered me when i had cassette decks but not open Reel. i buy the best tape for the R+R machine.

I have noise reduction units but never use them on the machine.

Beechwoods

04-04-2012, 18:13

I like my DBX unit as the best NR outboard you can get, consumerwise at any rate (IMO), but it steals that smidgen of presence I love on raw reel transfers. At 7 1/2 ips or higher the noise floor on a good machine in a good reel is low enough to disappear anyway, NR isn't at all necessary...

I wouldn't mind hearing a DBX encoded LP though. Never found one that had any interesting stuff on it, or cost little enough to go for it, though!

Alex Nikitin

04-04-2012, 18:25

Alex: I used to own a Tascam 122 & 234 cassette machine with higher speed..

And I suspect these did sound considerably worse than a good R2R. However the deck I've used at the show is nothing like those decks. The deck in the picture I would happily put against a good R2R at 15 ips (as 7.5 ips has very little chances). It is a cassette done right ;) . 20Hz-30kHz bandwidth, about 65-67 dBA SNR with a good Type II or Metal tape (without NR, obviously - the deck hasn't got any).

Cheers

Alex

Beechwoods

04-04-2012, 21:00

Alex, a friend of mine has one of your modified Technics decks and going by the high-res transfers I've heard off it is definitely right up there with the best decks. I am happy that my CR7 is up there too, but only after a service and alignment by B&W that cost nearly ⅔ the value of the deck!

Most people haven't heard cassette done well. For me the key thing is not so much to record, and play that recording back brilliantly, but to squeeze every ounce of fidelity from a pre-recorded tape from some other deck. In my experience, decks tend to record better than they can play back, which means you can retrieve shockingly good playback from old tapes recorded on moribund equipment, with the right playback machine.

People have given me tapes they have recorded themselves and been shocked at the quality of the straight transfers I've got off them; they have never heard them sound that good, and they often sound 'generations' better. That's why I find my tape obsession so rewarding!

TheVillageIdiot

05-04-2012, 20:47

I've used a cassette deck at 3.75 ips as a secondary source at the recent hi-fi show in Weybridge. Perhaps you should listen to a deck like that - you may change your opinion on cassettes ;) .

Apologies for the picture quality.

Cheers

Alex

My dear Alex, that deck looks like one of their TOTL from Uher, am I right?

Btw. I agree some of the TOTL cassette deck's sonic is as good as 7.5ips as may be hard to believe for some people.

My favorite deck certainly is.

TheVillageIdiot

05-04-2012, 20:57

Alex: I used to own a Tascam 122 & 234 cassette machine with higher speed..

I'm sorry, dear, but I've listend to those two models myself, and sonically even with those higher speed than typical cassette decks, I was never impressed.

Btw. I was interested in those two models for three reasons.

1. They were Tascam, and I've heard that when it comes to reliability, pro version of Tascams were the tops, better than anything from professional repair people.

2. I was intrigued by the higher speed.

3. I just loved their 'Don't mess with me' looks, very sturdy, and 'professional' looking.

....till I've listened to their sound quality, needless to say I was way underwhelmed.

Nick:
All that Metal & Chrome never bothered me, it bothered me when i had cassette decks but not open Reel. i buy the best tape for the R+R machine.

What is your best tape for Open reels?

I have noise reduction units but never use them on the machine.

I am with you there. I never use NR.

Beechwoods

05-04-2012, 21:00

My dear Alex, that deck looks like one of their TOTL from Uher, am I right?

Btw. I agree some of the TOTL cassette deck's sonic is as good as 7.5ips as may be hard to believe for some people.

My favorite deck certainly is.

I think it's a modified Technics, but I may be wrong...

TheVillageIdiot

05-04-2012, 21:17

And I suspect these did sound considerably worse than a good R2R.

They were, 25 to 20k at their highest speed, using metal, +-3db.

http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/324/122mkIII_TECHDOC.pdf

However the deck I've used at the show is nothing like those decks. The deck in the picture I would happily put against a good R2R at 15 ips (as 7.5 ips has very little chances). It is a cassette done right ;) . 20Hz-30kHz bandwidth, about 65-67 dBA SNR with a good Type II or Metal tape (without NR, obviously - the deck hasn't got any).

Cheers

Alex

How did you even manage up to 30khz, even more, how did you still manage to keep bottom end to 20hz? I am not asking you for a trade secret, but did it have to do with modifying heads or just electronics?

TheVillageIdiot

05-04-2012, 21:20

I think it's a modified Technics, but I may be wrong...

I think you're right. I mixed up with Uher decks.

TheVillageIdiot

05-04-2012, 21:28

Most people haven't heard cassette done well. For me the key thing is not so much to record, and play that recording back brilliantly, but to squeeze every ounce of fidelity from a pre-recorded tape from some other deck. In my experience, decks tend to record better than they can play back, which means you can retrieve shockingly good playback from old tapes recorded on moribund equipment, with the right playback machine.

So do you think azimuth playback control helps?

Beechwoods

05-04-2012, 21:37

It's useful, but I find I don't use it that much now I have it, most recordings have good azimuth, it's the quality of the transport that makes the biggest difference :)

TheVillageIdiot

05-04-2012, 21:57

I've heard it, before and after, using real live analogue master tapes! you haven't, obviously :ner: In no way does vinyl come anywhere near the fidelity of the master-tape, even on a proper turntable, although the best ones (if not refining all the energy out in the process of £refining) do a great job, the limiting bits being the sh*tty black plastic played (most of the time) on them.

I agree with you there. Do you think it's due to inferior channel separation of LPs compared to tapes?

Alex Nikitin

05-04-2012, 21:59

I think you're right. I mixed up with Uher decks.

It is actually a heavily modified Tascam 122mkIII, with Dolby chips removed and replaced by my special hybrid modules, a serious rework to other electronics, my ANT4066 chips for switching and additional screening on the transport and control buttons. Here are some photos and graphs from that deck. The DIN reference level (250nWb/m) is at -10dBFS on the graphs.

I choose the Tascam as it is well built, the transport is designed to run at 3.75 ips, the bias frequency is 150kHz and it has good calibration facilities and excellent discrete amorphous heads. In its original form it does sound like crap thought... .

Alex

P.S. - some explanation on the graphs - the first one shows the frequency response at 0dB DIN, +6dB, -10dB and -20dB using Sony Metal XR tape. As you may see the frequency response does not change with the level (no R2R at 7.5 ips can do that, only at 15 ips). The second graph shows a very good linearity of the unit - it is an intermodulation test with 10kHz+11kHz tones at -10dB DIN RMS level, using the same Sony Metal XR tape - a very difficult test even for the best tape recorders.

TheVillageIdiot

05-04-2012, 23:26

I choose the Tascam as it is well built, the transport is designed to run at 3.75 ips, the bias frequency is 150kHz and it has good calibration facilities and excellent discrete amorphous heads.

I believe 122 used direct drive transport. I don't think Dolph approved of direct drive transport for sonic reasons.

Btw. Even though normally I would agree with dolph on direct drive vs. belt drive, not absolutely. Nagra T-audio had the best sonics I ever listened to, but it's totally direct drive.

P.S. - some explanation on the graphs - the first one shows the frequency response at 0dB DIN, +6dB, -10dB and -20dB using Sony Metal XR tape. As you may see the frequency response does not change with the level (no R2R at 7.5 ips can do that, only at 15 ips).

I am very impressed with the curve, especially the flatness. However, I do notice that measured from 20hz, within 3db, the top end goes up to 'only' about 25khz. Not 30khz. Please don't get me wrong, 20 to 25khz within 3db is still spectacular, especially considering the original spec was only 25hz to 20khz within 3db.

EDIT: My apologies, dear Alex, within 3db, your frequency curve actually goes to close to 30khz, I've been working all day on computers without break so I missed it. Also, my favorite deck's frequency curve is 30hz to 20khz within 3db. Still, I believe there was only a dimple at the bottom end, not 'bump' like most frequency curves. I am sorry for unintentional inaccuate statements from me. I still have to find that graph just to see how 'flat' is my deck's curve.

I believe that Beocord 9000 and one of the TOTL Naks go up to 25khz within 3db. (Actually I was informed by one of Nak specialist one TOTL Nak model goes up to 27khz.), that is, only utilizing the standard cassette speed lower than the higher speed available on Tascam 122.

Btw. For what's worth, my favorite deck's spec is only up to 22khz using metal tapes, but I still prefer the sonics of my favorite deck over Beocord 9000 and TOTL Naks.

One particular audiophile society that tested my favorite deck over the other TOTL decks when dubbing LP to cassettes claimed that my favorite deck was the only deck that faithfully coped LP to cassette. They also noted that my favorite deck's flatness of frequency curve was better than anything available, not just in cassettes, but also open reels, especially on bottom end, basically there wasn't much of a 'bump' you see in frequency curves.

When I got the 7th of my favorite model(now I am on 9th), I finally managed to get the original test frequency curve graph along with it, and no, the typical 'bump' you see on the bottom end of the frequency curves was not there, only a tiny dimple, and if I remember it correctly the rest of the curve was just as flat as your modified 122's frequency curve, if not flatter (Of course, my favorite deck only went up to 22khz within 3db unlike yours, which went up to about 25khz within 3db of 20hz.)

I am going to dig out the graph somewhere and compare it with yours.

Alex Nikitin

05-04-2012, 23:46

I believe 122 used direct drive transport. I don't think Dolph approved of direct drive transport for sonic reasons.

Btw. Even though normally I would agree with dolph on direct drive vs. belt drive, not absolutely. Nagra T-audio had the best sonics I ever listened to, but it's totally direct drive.

I am very impressed with the curve, especially the flatness. However, I do notice that measured from 20hz, within 3db, the top end goes up to 'only' about 25khz. Not 30khz. Please don't get me wrong, 20 to 25khz within 3db is still spectacular, especially considering the original spec was only 25hz to 20khz within 3db.

The response goes to about 27kHz (-3dB) even with a Type I tape, as the attached hi-res graph shows (and if I would reduce the bias a bit than it is easy to get 30 kHz in the +/- 3dB margin). However what important is not the actual extent of the frequency response (it is possible to get over 45 kHz at -20 dB DIN with these heads and 3.75 ips) but the same response even for 0dB input and relatively slow slope, indicating a limited HF lift in the REC EQ amp - it is only about 7-9 dB at 30 kHz. That improves the overload behaviour and phase response.

The Tascam 122mkIII has a DD capstan, however it has very good W&F results, even non-wtd DIN (q-peak) W&F is less than 0.1%, DIN wtd is about 0.05-0.06% at 3.75 ips .

Cheers

Alex

Yomanze

08-04-2012, 22:19

Here is a fragment (http://www.ant-audio.co.uk/temp1/HD8_fragment.zip)
44.1 kHz 16 bit - "CD quality" is simply not good enough compared with a quality cassette recording. 88.2 kHz or 96 kHz 24 bit is required.

Alex

Hmm properly implemented 16bit 44.1KHz is better than 24/96. 24bit resolution with upsampling is not only impossible in the first place but with more artificial etched highs. Cassette can also be awesome though. :)

TheVillageIdiot

09-04-2012, 05:01

The response goes to about 27kHz (-3dB) even with a Type I tape, as the attached hi-res graph shows (and if I would reduce the bias a bit than it is easy to get 30 kHz in the +/- 3dB margin). However what important is not the actual extent of the frequency response (it is possible to get over 45 kHz at -20 dB DIN with these heads and 3.75 ips) but the same response even for 0dB input and relatively slow slope, indicating a limited HF lift in the REC EQ amp - it is only about 7-9 dB at 30 kHz. That improves the overload behaviour and phase response.

Indeed.

Btw. I've finally managed to find the Frequency Response Chart from the factory that measured this particular deck of the model.

..and the result was pretty much what I suspected through my ears. I'd say overall the flatness of frequency response from 25 to 20k of this model is about the same as your modified 122, even at slower typical casette deck speed, but with this important difference.

The 'bump' you see usually at the bottom end is indeed quite smaller than even your modified 122 at higher speed. How small? About 33% smaller than your modded 122. The 'high's' are about the same, but 'Mid's' are flatter on your modded 122, how flatter? About 50% flatter, but with the benefit of higher speed than typical cassette speed on mine.

The Tascam 122mkIII has a DD capstan, however it has very good W&F results, even non-wtd DIN (q-peak) W&F is less than 0.1%, DIN wtd is about 0.05-0.06% at 3.75 ips .

Cheers

Alex

The higest W&F DIN is indeed better on your modded 122. Mine lists 0.7% DIN at 1.875 ips.

TheVillageIdiot

09-04-2012, 05:21

Hmm properly implemented 16bit 44.1KHz is better than 24/96. 24bit resolution with upsampling is not only impossible in the first place but with more artificial etched highs.

You know what I agree with you on that one. I think this fellow explains why so.

http://www.mother-of-tone.com/cd.htm

Cassette can also be awesome though. :)

Yes, personally I feel that even when cassette may not sound as great as properly implemented cd, at least on paper, it is definitely less tiring to ears than digital. After all, by definition, analog is softer than digital.

Alex Nikitin

09-04-2012, 18:18

Hmm properly implemented 16bit 44.1KHz is better than 24/96. 24bit resolution with upsampling is not only impossible in the first place but with more artificial etched highs.

Are you trying to say that less information about the original signal is better? Sorry, that is silly. Obviously, a poorly implemented digital equipment, whatever the format, could sound very bad indeed, but a "properly implemented" 24bit 96kHz format recording would always be miles better than a "properly implemented" 16bit 44.1kHz recording. I am not talking about "upsampling" etc. but about the original recording format.

Cassette can also be awesome though. :)

I'll agree on that ;) .

Cheers

Alex

Gordon Steadman

09-04-2012, 20:35

Not directly related to cassette but my ears tell me that music that I have recorded from vinyl to CD and then transferred to the Mac to play in iTunes sounds better than a commercial CD of the same music.

I do find my wife's top of the range pioneer cassette player very musical although we have very few tapes now.

I suspect there is still some part of the human ear/brain interface that the engineers / specification brigade haven't quite decoded as yet.

WOStantonCS100

09-04-2012, 21:24

...properly implemented 16bit 44.1KHz is better than 24/96...

One can argue over how many bits are really necessary; but, that statement makes absolutely no sense if one truly understands the difference. Taken as what it is, it is not possible for a higher sampling frequency to be less accurate than a lower one, unless the designer of the ADC was drinking heavily at the time, as well as smoking a bong.

http://www.mother-of-tone.com/cd.htm

Yes, personally I feel that even when cassette may not sound as great as properly implemented cd, at least on paper, it is definitely less tiring to ears than digital. After all, by definition, analog is softer than digital.

Analog tape (especially over 16/44.1) is truer to the orignal analog wave form. When talking about CD one always gets the numbers and there is some truth in the numbers. SNR is great. Dynamic range is great. The number one doesn't get is the percentage of the original analog wave form that was actually recorded (retained) in comparison to an all analog format. This isn't insignificant. This is what makes analog recording sound more believable, convincing and accurate... because, it is. Not even mentioning open reel, cassette tape has largely reduced tape hiss to a moot point with 3-head decks, Dolby S, dbx Type II, high bias tape and even double speed. (Sadly, many consumers never got to hear cassette done right; but, instead, remember the sound of cheap and poorly aligned decks.) CD's SNR and dynamic range just makes it easier to hear that only a percentage of the original signal ever made it to storage. It takes some pretty dang clever digital filters and algorithms to make 16/44.1 sound "good/right". Newer DAC designs jump thru hoops and have come a long way. Still, it doesn't beat having more samples from the get go. The article at the other end of the link you provided has some very good illustrations that seem easy to understand. Thanks for adding that.

Are you trying to say that less information about the original signal is better? Sorry, that is silly. Obviously, a poorly implemented digital equipment, whatever the format, could sound very bad indeed, but a "properly implemented" 24bit 96kHz format recording would always be miles better than a "properly implemented" 16bit 44.1kHz recording. I am not talking about "upsampling" etc. but about the original recording format.

Alex

Glad you spoke up, Alex. I was biting my tongue, trying not to be the first to say something. ;)

Not directly related to cassette but my ears tell me that music that I have recorded from vinyl to CD and then transferred to the Mac to play in iTunes sounds better than a commercial CD of the same music.

I do find my wife's top of the range pioneer cassette player very musical although we have very few tapes now.

I think most are agreed that the loudness war thing has really bastardized the CD format (yea, most modern digital formats). Vinyl, the lion's share of what's out there, certainly from the beginning 'til up to the '80's, is largely devoid of the compress the "hell out of it and make it LOUD" mentality so pervasive today. When digitizing LP's, few of us do that. Therefore, the dynamic range (naturalness) of the LP is preserved. This is where the dynamic range of a CD actually has a chance to shine. It still chops up and discards info in the recording process; but, at least it's not squashed like a gnat with a whole bunch of clipped peaks.

I suspect there is still some part of the human ear/brain interface that the engineers / specification brigade haven't quite decoded as yet.

Precisely, they are working hard on it and I actually hope they succeed.

Beechwoods

09-04-2012, 21:33

Nice post Biff :thumbsup:

seoirse2002

09-04-2012, 22:18

Having read this thread with interest,I gave it a quick test today using her indoors as the guinea pig.
Recorded the original vinyl lp to cassette...
recorded the cd to cassette making sure the gain was equal....

so now I have 4 things for my other half to listen to:

cd
cd copy to tape
vinyl copy to tape
wav thru sbt

Blind test......she chose the vinyl to cassette copy every time...
I was actually surprised myself

dantheman91

11-04-2012, 09:10

Hi

im just re-visting tapes dug out my old tape deck and was quite suprised on the quality a tape can have. i was playing my old rock tapes from led zeppelin to guns n roses. the sound was impressive.

seoirse2002

11-04-2012, 09:43

And still Tony(thevillageidiot) wont tell us what his favourite cassette deck is,even though he is in the USA and we here in the UK are unlikely to be snapping them up from over there...Im still racking my brains:scratch:

Reid Malenfant

11-04-2012, 16:16

It's a modified Technics deck, that's all we know :scratch:

Tasuke

16-05-2012, 18:36

Cassette's Not Dead, Apparently!

certainly not in my house, for sure;

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/CT-S800%2004-09-2009/CT-S800JOHN4-16-121.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/CT-S800%2004-09-2009/CT-S800JOHN4-16-122.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/CT-S800%2004-09-2009/CT-S800JOHN4-16-123.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/CT-S800%2004-09-2009/CT-S800JOHN4-16-124.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/CT-S800%2004-09-2009/CT-S800John5-26-111.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/MacGyver%20System%202011/MacGsystem-1-21-121.jpg

snapper

16-05-2012, 20:22

certainly not in my house, for sure;

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/CT-S800%2004-09-2009/CT-S800JOHN4-16-121.jpg

Nice picture. Cassette's not dead in my house either.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/nakatape.jpg

Reid Malenfant

16-05-2012, 20:37

certainly not in my house, for sure;
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/CT-S800%2004-09-2009/CT-S800JOHN4-16-121.jpg
[QUOTE=snapper;326581]Nice picture. Cassette's not dead in my house either.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/nakatape.jpg
All very nice....

Except I appear to be the only one playing one :D

http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad240/speakermark/Audio%20Video%20system/Image2-1.jpg

:lol:

walpurgis

18-05-2012, 22:50

Got rid of all my cassettes, so there wasn't much point in hanging onto the deck. Always fancied trying an 'Elcassette' (is that spelt correctly?) though. Geoff.

Beechwoods

18-05-2012, 22:52

They're very funky Geoff, and it's Elcaset ;) But I'll forgive you your francophone translation!

walpurgis

18-05-2012, 22:59

They're very funky Geoff, and it's Elcaset ;) But I'll forgive you your francophone translation!

How did you know I was French?

WOStantonCS100

19-05-2012, 03:36

We keep a few on hand. ;)

6oXBVDmFBpQ

http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz80/TCKA1ESa/Album01/IMGs_0010.jpg

Mr Kipling

19-05-2012, 22:47

I must have a couple of hundred as well :eyebrows:

I switched to a different type of cassette for audio recording once i realised i'd be daft not to - Hifi VHS video recorder. I must have a couple of hundred video cassttes with about 6 hours of music on each one ;) I used that constantly until i bought a CD recorder unless what i was going to record was longer than 80 minutes.

I really have no idea why other people didn't think of using a video, after all it has an amazing signal to noise ratio (up there with CD) as well as sub 20Hz to over 20KHz response with zero need for noise reduction :) It's similar to a reel to reel operating at 2M per second.

Hi Mark. Was going to mention Hi-Fi Video when I've just found your posting.

Years ago I got Roy Orbison's "A Black And White Night" on VHS. I was STUNNED at the sound quality. Picture was a bit soft with saturated whites in places. But the sound. . . Hugely entertaining to listen to. Years later I got the dvd expecting the same fantastic sound quality - only to be disappointed. It was a shadow of the VHS. With the VHS there was a real sense of an event and you could clearly hear the difference in tone and contour of sound between Bruce Springsteen's, Roy's and Gary Burton's ? guitars. With the dvd however, the differences were so much less obvious. If you came to the dvd without knowing the sound possible from VHS you'd have no idea just how special a recording it is. So if you see it at a car boot - snap it up!

Another example is The Beatles' "A Hard Day's Night" Remastered stereo video. Again the VHS sounds better than the dvd and the picture quality is pretty good. Got the Remastered Help video recently but haven't got round to trying it yet.

Never really used Hi-Fi Video to record music except when there was something on the radio I wanted to record when I was out and I could use the timer.

Kind Regards,
Stephen

PaulStewart

20-05-2012, 22:37

Back in the day when I was with JVC, we launched the first Metal cassette deck range on to the market. 3m gave us the tape and Tandberg got a reel to reel metal tape machine out a few months before we launched the cassette units. The top of the range, the KDA-8 was a stunning piece of kit. It had X-Cut sen-alloy heads and an auto bias,eq and sensitivity tuning system. I had one in my home system for a while. I have many hundreds of recordings, both my own and demos I was sent while producing so I have two decks at home, a Pioneer CTS-800 in the Hi-Fi and a Tascam 112Mk2 in the edit suite. JVC also had a Elcaset, which if I remember rightly never made it onto the UK market but I did get to take it to a few studios to make test recordings.

My favourite cassette memory was in the late seventies,when the powers that be in Japan decided we should break into the wildlife recording field, because Marantz has a portable recorder in their Superscope range which was doing well in this. We had a couple of good ones in ours including the CD 1635 MK 2 we also had a nice stereo electret mic the M210 and a studio quality m510 which had a normal or shotgun capsule. There was a bird watchers festival a month away and we were going to have a stand showing our wares. One problem, no recordings, I was despatched for a week with kit and our in house PR journo who was a "twitcher" in his spare time. He was to identify our feathered friends and I was to record them..... We drove out into the Herts and Bucks countryside found a really nice pub to stay in, dinner couple of pints and an early night to get up early to record the dawn chorus. About 3:00AM Journo wakes me up knocking on my door, "Quick there's a grey owl out there". I throw my clothes on, grab mic, headphones, deck and reflector and run out to the woods at he back of the pub and for about ten minutes i record this bird. Then I get transfixed in a bright torch beam and I record the local plod walking up to me saying "Hello, hello, hello, what's going on here then". Later I got the shotgun mic a recorded a Mistle thrush at dawn. When we got to the show we sold a fair amount of kit, but best for me my "Mistle Thrush with Dawn Chorus" won an honourable mention and my "Grey Owl with Police Constable" got an award for best recording.