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Barry
18-08-2013, 00:20
My Life with Quad


Once again I seem to have reached another millennial post – and as usual on these occasions my post will be more of an essay, which I hope might provoke some discussion.

The actual subject for my millennial post was suggested to me by another forum member, but seemed pertinent given a recent flurry of posts on a similar subject. In fact it might to some to appear ego-driven, self-indulgent, smug or downright contentious. It might even read as a hagiography! But I’m not concerned– after 7,000 posts I think I have earned the right.

So to the thread in hand – My Life with Quad


Introduction

My involvement with music and audio goes back some 45 years. In those early days I could not afford to buy ready-made equipment (save, obviously, a record deck and cartridge) and had to build my own amplifier and speakers. However I read the audio press of the time (which were a better read than today’s audio comics) and knew of the manufacturers Quad, Leak, Radford, Rogers, Lowther and Tannoy, amongst others, and quickly became fascinated with one brand in particular: that of Quad.


The Quad ESL

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/IMG_0007-1-1.jpg


Of all the Quad products this is probably their most famous. I should perhaps refer to it as the Quad 57 ESL (itself a misnomer: the design was announced to the public in 1955, but the error has become sufficiently well promulgated that even Quad themselves accept and use the designation), but I simply regard it as the Quad electrostatic. I became fascinated with the whole principle, theory and operation of electrostatic speakers, however until the Quad design, all preceding designs were either unsuccessful, or were used as tweeters only. Quad were the first to successfully design and market a full-range electrostatic speaker.

This was due in no small part to the work of F. V. Hunt who showed that a constant charge push-pull design would be free of distortion. However it was Peter Walker of Quad who realised that to provide a constant charge on the moving electrode, it would be better to decouple the electrode from the power supply, not through a high value series resistor, but to give the electrode itself a high surface sheet resistance. This would prevent the charge from “moving around” over the surface of the electrode. Quad were able to take advantage of the, then, recently developed polyethylene terephthalate (PET) polymer by ICI.

Once introduced the Quad electrostatic took the audio world by storm for its purity and neutrality, thanks to the lack of an enclosure with its concomitant colourations. Such qualities were immediately recognised by not only audio enthusiasts but by record companies, who used them in their quality control suites and by broadcast authorities. The BBC use (or used to use) Quad ESLs to monitor the quality of their overseas broadcasts.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/IMG_0001-3.jpg
The BBC Transcription Service’s listening room. Note the ‘remote control’ arrangement of the equipment.

As soon as I could afford to do, so I bought a pair in 1974 for the princely sum of £120. They were my second set of speakers (the first were a pair of Wharfdale 8/RS/DD 8"drivers built into 1.25 cubic foot distributed-port cabinets).

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/005.jpg

So, I have lived and been thoroughly content with the Quads for nearly forty years and I can’t foresee me ever changing them.

No they aren’t perfect – far from it, but then what speaker is? None to date that I have heard! The Quad ESLs have many shortcomings – some might say failures, but I readily acknowledge them and live with them. What are they? Well here’s the list:

1 They don’t do bass. Agreed, they don’t go much below 50Hz and roll of at a rate that is asymptotic to 18dB/octave (i.e. fast).

But what bass they do is pure and clean without any “enhancement” (that is frequency doubling) by any enclosure. Just listen to a 40Hz note played on an electric bass – it is so clean. And anyway I was never a bass freak – I have attended enough live rock concerts to know I don’t like to have my guts ‘churned’ by high volume bass notes. Nor am I a fan of the pipe organ, so do not miss the deep notes. (The beginning of R. Strauss’s Also Sprach Zarathustra starts with a bass note of 32Hz, and with some recordings 16Hz. This comes across well enough on the Quads, though it doesn’t have the ‘weight’ that other speakers provide.) Peter Walker designed his speaker with domestic considerations in mind: he had no intention of foisting wardrobe-sized units on anyone. His design was a practical compromise between bass extension and size.

If you want to extend the bass performance, try stacking a pair of Quad ESLs (if you have the room), or use a sub-woofer (which is not without its own set of problems of integration).

2 They can’t be played loud. Agreed, and for many this is a serious shortcoming as it means the Quads cannot really impart a true sense of dynamics.

Without wishing to sidestep the issue, I have attended enough live concerts (especially orchestral concerts) to know that there are very few systems available that can truly reproduce dynamics without compromise. I’m happy with what the Quads can do - when the software allows it (!) I don’t play music loud enough so as to feel I’m having my ears battered. Again, I attended enough rock concerts in my youth to know I have had enough of loud music. The sensitivity of the Quad ESLs is 82dB/W, which when driven by a 50W amplifier achieves 99-100dB, and that's loud enough for me!

Overdriving the Quads in an attempt to increase the volume is a serious issue: they will be damaged by arcing between the motor and the stator electrodes, if they are fed with an audio signal of greater than 30V. In practice this means 20V rms or about 50W.

3 They are directional; they ‘beam’, so much so there is really only seat (the ‘hot seat’) where one can hear the superb imaging and soundstage. In other words they are anti-social speakers and have been likened to a giant set of headphones – only one listener can enjoy them.

True, and I have had friends complain of the sound staging, until that is, they sit in my chair, or alongside it. Sadly the directional properties, both in the vertical plane and horizontal plane are as a result of the layout of the ‘drivers’ in the speaker. Directionality in the vertical plane is due to all the drivers being ‘line drivers’, that is, consisting of vertical strips, though this directionality has been somewhat ameliorated by making the drivers curve in a shallow arc. The vertical directivity can be reduced by either raising the speakers about 10" off the floor or by tilting them forward by raising the rear leg by about 3" (subject to experimentation). People sat in higher seats when the Quad ESL was designed. Nowadays, easy chairs allow people to sit lower down, so the treble ‘beam’ shoots over the listener’s head. Tilting them forward (at the risk of making them physically unstable) allows the treble beam to be directed at ones ears. Beaming in the horizontal plane is due to either the narrow width of the treble line driver, or to the interference pattern caused by the mid and bass driver pairs, which flank the central tweeter.

4 They are difficult to house and set up.

Being a doublet, or dipole design, almost as much sound comes from the rear as from the front. Despite some perfunctory sound absorption fitted to the rear of the speaker, behind the driver units, the speakers do need at least three foot of clearance (and preferably 6 foot) between the rear of the speakers and any parallel surface or wall. This means one needs a fairly large room, however Quads ESLs can be used in small rooms and can actually be positioned a couple of feet away from a rear wall, if sound absorbing material is used in between.

5 They are fussy of the amplifier used to drive them

As long as the amplifier is happy driving loads having a large capacitative reactance and can tolerate low impedances (the Quads present an impedance of only a couple of Ohms at 10kHz, then any amplifier will do. The speaker themselves do have a loading inductance fitted to a secondary winding of the audio transformer, but even so at frequencies above about 200Hz the reactance is capacitative. I have used Quad’s own amplifiers (both valve and solid state), Sugden, and Electrocompaniet solid state and Radford valve, and none have shown the slightest instability when driving the Quads. I am now using early Mark Levinson amplifiers, and these too drive the Quads like a dream.


What the Quads have going for them is a complete freedom from overhang; speed; superb attack and decay; complete absence of cabinet colouration (though there are some mild colourations at 7kHz and 10kHz due to the wooden support frame being insufficiently rigid); with wonderful focus, imaging and sound staging. Accurate rendition of the human voice, both spoken and sung, is very important to me and the Quads do this better than any other speaker I have heard – in fact most other speakers sound coloured to me.


Quad electronics

At the time I bought the Quad ESLs the only amplifier I had to drive them was a home-built Sugden “A21” power amp fed by a Sugden C51 preamp (don’t ask!). 12.5 watts (though it was probably less than that) was insufficient to drive the Quads fully; for a lot of the time the volume control was at near maximum. So the next Quad item acquired was the Quad 405 power amplifier, bought in 1978.

Since the C51 preamp takes it power supply from the power amp, I tapped-off the +50V supply rail of the Quad 405 and used it to supply a simple Zener regulated 16V supply for the C51.

When the Quad 405-1 was first introduced, there was much discussion as to how it actually worked, but the audio press generally gave it good reviews, however some commentators had their doubts about the sound quality. A large part of the criticism was directed at the quality of the op-amp used. It is a simple matter to replace this, as well as fitting the necessary by-pass capacitors required to maintain stability. Since then, my Quad 405-1 has been heavily modified, mostly as described in;

http://www.dc-daylight.ltd.uk/the-Hi-Fi-stuff.html

and

http://quadrevisionspot.blogspot.co.uk/

With these modifications in place, the Quad 405 is a very good amplifier and an advance over the Sugden class-A designs (as well as the Series 2 Quad valve electronics).

The next Quad item acquired was a tuner: the Quad FM3. Since its arrival, the FM3 has been used every day when at home for the last 33 years. It has provided enormous pleasure listening to everything from Pick of the Pops, the BBC proms, Late Junction, as well as radio plays and documentaries.

I was not entirely happy with the C51 control unit, so for a while used a Hafler DH101 but as soon as it was made available I bought the Quad 44 preamp. This is a highly versatile design, whereby any of the five inputs can be customised through selection of the appropriate input cards. The pick-up input card has provision to adjust the sensitivity as well as the loading impedance. The same applies to the tape input card: allowing me to hook up an elderly Series Six Ferrograph reel-to-reel tape machine. Another attractive feature of the 44 is the ‘tilt’ control, which provides a 1 or 2dB tilt to the spectrum either up or down. I found this helpful in providing correction to some either dull or over-bright recordings; subtler than could be provided by the usual bass and treble controls of most pre-amps.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/002-6.jpg
Quad 44 preamp (left) with Quad FM4 tuner (right)

I have always preferred to assemble my own cables: the choice of DIN connectors by Quad has not made this easy; one has to be adroit, neat and tidy when soldering DIN plugs but it does allow one to make up better leads than the ‘freebies’ provided. I use metal clad Preh or Neutrik plugs and either Neumann microphone cable or RG 174 coaxial cable. (My system at that time used a mixture of RCA ‘phono’, DIN and ¼” jack plugs, more recently Canon XLR, Tuchel and CAMAC connectors have been added to the menagerie!)

Again the first version of the 44 suffered some problems. These were corrected in the second version; largely due to a redesign of the motherboard as well as improved quality components. The best version to buy is the last – only available in grey livery with grey buttons, it can be recognised by the additional +/-3dB setting on the tilt control and by the absence of the ‘cancel’ LED between the tilt control and the high frequency filter/slope control.

I have always found Quad gear to be reliable, but nothing is perfect. Because I cannot be without my system, I like to have replacements to fall back on, should and when the Quad gear needs attention. To this end I acquired a complete set of Series 2 valve electronics: a pair of Quad II power amps with Quad 22 preamplifier and Quad FM1 tuner many years ago for £75. It was interesting comparing the valve ‘sound’ with that of the Series 4 solid-state electronics. It was also amusing to try some tube ‘rolling’, but in the end the whole system was inconvenient to use; so I gave it away to a friend of mine (they sounded very ‘nice’ feeding his Lowther Acousta horn-loaded speakers).

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/IMG_0006-1.jpg
Top: Quad II power amplifiers. Bottom: Quad 22 control unit (left) and AM2 tuner (right).


To replace the Series 2 Quad valve electronics, I bought the Quad 33 with Quad 303 combination. I have always wanted a 33/303 since I first started getting involved with audio. When first introduced they were very well received by both audio enthusiasts and by professional users: The BBC used hundreds of them, as did groups like The Pink Floyd. They work superbly well into the Quad ESLs for a couple of reasons. First, despite having a fairly high output impedance of 0.1Ω, owing to the very low mass of the moving electrode of the Quad ESL, the amplifier has to provide very little damping (to stop the “tail wagging the dog”). Secondly, despite the Quad 303 using capacitor coupling, the series capacitance resonates with the inductance of the audio transformer of the speaker to flatten out the effective speaker impedance and extend the low frequency response.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/Uher4400beingputthroughitspaces004.jpg
Quad 33 preamp and Quad FM3 tuner fitted in the wooden sleeve.

The Quad 33 preamp design is “of its time” and now sounds dated – as do all other preamp designs of the mid-to-late ‘60s: be they Leak, Radford, Lowther or Sugden. Like all Series 3 electronics, specialist companies such as Dada and NET can improve both the 33 and 303. There is only so much improvement that can be done to the 33 (such as modifying one of the inputs to suit the output from a CD player and improving the power supply), more so with the 303: but even unmodified they produce a very smooth, satisfying and ‘comfortable’ sound (often referred to as “pipe and slippers”) devoid of ‘nasties’, if not the last word in resolution. Given the reasonable price of used units available on eBay, the 33/303 combination represents very good value for money. I have two 303 amplifiers: one fitted with the conventional sockets and a second fitted with Cannon XLR connectors.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/012-1.jpg
Quad 303 power amplifier fitted with Cannon connectors

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/Quad_303.jpg
Quad 303

The 33/303 combination was used for a few years to relay the audio channels from my DVD player and digital TV decoder, running into Bowers & Wilkins DM2A speakers.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/Uher4400beingputthroughitspaces001.jpg
Quad 33 preamplifier, FM3 tuner, 405-1 (to the right on the record cabinet) and 303 (on floor) power amplifiers.

Before Quad introduced the 303 design, they had already designed a 50W solid-state single channel amplifier: the Quad 50E. This was intended for use by professional organisations only, such as recording studios, broadcast organisations (such as the BBC) and others (such as British Rail). It is an interesting design, in so far it was one of the first power amp designs to use a regulated power supply with choke smoothing, but more importantly it uses an output transformer to couple to the speaker. On the 50E there are four 17V secondary windings and four 8.5V secondary windings. To configure the output to be suitable to drive Quad ESLs, the four 8.5V windings are connected in series as two pairs (to make two 17V), and these pairs connected in parallel with the four 17V windings. That way the ESLs are never subjected to more than 17V, which is within their operating specification. Of course by connecting the eight windings in other series/parallel combinations, speaker loads of anywhere between 5.8Ω and 200Ω can be accommodated, with maximum voltages of 17V to 102V respectively. The BBC was a major user of the 50Es as well as the customised 50D (which only had four 17V tappings, permitting 50W into loads of 8 -32Ω). Both of my Quad 50Es are ex-BBC - the only distinction being the replacement of the usual Bulgin 3-pin mains connector with a Cannon XLR type.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/002_zpsbcbb7e0f.jpg
Quad 50E

One of the disadvantages of using either the 50E or 50D is the use of Plessey ‘Paignton’ connectors. These are no longer made, and whilst still available they are very expensive.

The 50E can have its input configured to allow the use of a 600Ω - balanced line. This is achieved through the fitting of a transformer having a centre-tapped primary (such as the Sowter type 3654). I acquired a pair of 50Es to use as monoblocks, placed directly behind each speaker and connected to the preamp via balanced-line interconnects. I didn’t use the octal-base Sowter transformers, but used German studio-grade Beyer transformers: type TR/BV 3 061-060.


For the last three or so years the Quad FM3 tuner has been replaced with a Quad FM4. This was bought since I listen to more than one radio station (these being Radio 2, Radio 3, Radio 4 and sometimes Jazz FM and Classic FM), and liked the idea of being able to store these as presets. I also liked the idea of a tuner using a conventional tuning knob with a digital frequency display.

The FM4 is well regarded by many: the BBC selected it as being representative of a high quality tuner that their listeners might use, and with it they check the quality of their broadcasts. Compared to the FM3, the FM4 has a slightly ‘dryer’ sound, which I feel better suits the human voice. The inclusion of the FM4 completes the Series 4 electronics.

A couple of years ago I acquired a Quad AM3 and was given a Quad FM2 (valve) tuner. I very briefly tried the (European version) AM3 with a rudimentary ‘washing line’ aerial; mostly to listen to the World Service, but it now is no longer used and is kept as an [I]objet d’art, along with a Quad AM1 (also valve), the styling of the latter matching the Series 2 electronics. Compared to both the FM3 and FM4, the FM2 has a sweeter, warmer sound.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/013.jpg
Quad AM3 tuner

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/003-1.jpg
Quad FM2 tuner

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/006_zps9eaba540.jpg
Top: Quad AM1 tuner (note that the company was called “Acoustical”)
Bottom: Quad AM3 tuner (European version). Both AM tuners employ valves


Lately I have bought two Quad 405-2 power amps: one being a late version with power switch and RCA phono connectors – necessary as I had replaced my preamplifier with one made by Mark Levinson; and the second, bought from a fellow member is also a late version but fitted with NET dual-mono power supplies.

Finally, about four years ago I bought a Quad 520f power amplifier, also from a fellow member. This is a 150W/channel professional amplifier designed to be used in theatres, cinemas and recording studios. Again there are special versions of this amp customised for the BBC, and several of them are used for the sound reinforcement at the House of Commons.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/007_zps355b2e62.jpg
Quad 520f power amplifier

Usually so-called professional power amplifiers are a case of superb reliability at the expense of sound quality. This is not the case with the 520f (the “f” stands for the provision to have a completely floating balanced-line input), it has enormous authority, yet is delicate, detailed and completely lacking in harshness or grain. I didn’t expect it to sound so good as it does. It now replaces the 33/303 combination used with the TV, where it is driven by a Mark Levinson ML10A preamp and runs into B&W DM2A speakers.


Summary

For the last forty years my listening pleasure has involved one Quad component or another. I hold Quad in very high regard, being one of the few British audio manufacturers that “got it right”; the Quad name is well respected worldwide and is something to be proud of. Their designs were the product of no-nonsense engineering, made by people who knew what musical instruments ought to sound like (Peter Walker played clarinet in a dance band) and priced reasonably. All Quad products are very reliable and although the company is now owned by the Chinese, all servicing is still carried out by engineers in Huntingdon who continue to provide a customer care service that is second to none.

Used samples of the series 2, 3 and 4 electronics all maintain their resale value, yet still represent excellent value for money. You get a lot of good sound quality for your pound.

As to the most recent Quad designs (the 909 and CDP 9), these have received good reviews, but there are reports filtering through the grapevine that the Chinese company are now using inferior home-sourced components (capacitors in particular) to the detriment of sound quality and, sad to say, to the reputation of the Quad name.

It might appear to some that I’m a bit of a “completist (?)” where it comes to Quad gear. True – I confess; I am a bit of a collector who admires the superb build quality of Quad gear, however there are many other enthusiasts out there who have far larger collections than I.

However lest you think I am a “dyed in the wool” Quad fanatic, I prefer to think that I am a Quad enthusiast: my loyalties do have their limit –since the beginning of 2013, the amplification in my main system is now all Mark Levinson and I have recently been experimenting with a Radford STA15 Mk. III valve power amplifier.

Audio Al
18-08-2013, 02:03
WOW Barry that's a post

Will read it with interest when I have time :)

Firebottle
18-08-2013, 07:08
Great post Barry, I have Quad gear (57s, 405/2, 306, 34) but regret letting my 303 go many years ago.

Love the pic of the AM1, not seen one before :thumbsup:

:cool:Alan

MartinT
18-08-2013, 08:02
Nice story, Barry. It's always interesting to hear how others have built up their systems over time. Like you, I was a constructor to start with as I couldn't afford anything ready made. However, you became the ultimate 'one-brand' king whereas I experimented down a few dead-ends before discovering the kind of components (and sound) that I like.

Thanks for the journey!

Gordon Steadman
18-08-2013, 08:07
Nice one Barry. Thanks for the interesting summary of your life with Quad.

I seem to be the only person in the world who doesn't experience all these 'known' problems with the 57s. I have used them in rooms of various sizes and they have always been superb. I am unaffected by the beaming treble, it just seems natural wherever I sit and the imaging works fine over a broad area. The bass in my present room is extremely good. Admitedly, if I want to listen to organ music, I connect up a different speaker that offers a bit of wellie but that's the only time I am aware of any lack at all.

I too have owned 33/303/FM3, 50Ds, 34/405/FM4, 306. All of them superbly designed and extremely satisfying sonically and especially, ergonomically. The current trend for in your face histrionics, screetching treble and booming bass is not for me.

I now only have the 57s which will only go when I do and the FM4. In many ways I regret parting with all and any of the others although there were good reasons for moving all of them on. I often dream of that lottery win (if I actually did it) and getting a collection together of every Quad product ever made. How would that look on Audio Al's racking?? Awesome.

Stitch of present system added - the prog couldn't cope with the angle at the bottom but the rest is OK

MartinT
18-08-2013, 09:05
Nice looking stands there, Gordon.

Gordon Steadman
18-08-2013, 09:13
Nice looking stands there, Gordon.

A bit of oak worktop 'left over' from a kitchen job:eyebrows:

Macca
18-08-2013, 09:16
Barry - Excellent stuff. I first heard the ESL57 just last year, what you read about them does not prepare you for the experience, they are quite astonishing. They are also much larger than I expected from photographs, I wonder if QUAD deliberately used big people as models in the photographs for their literature in order to make them look a bit more domestically acceptable :) Whereas the 303 power amp is smaller in reality than it appears in pictures. Amazing that you bought yours in 1974 when I was six - thanks for making me feel young ;) . And they must be good because you have not got around to re-decorating your living room since :)

Tim
18-08-2013, 10:52
. . . all servicing is still carried out by engineers in Huntingdon who continue to provide a customer care service that is second to none.

Super post Barry and funnily enough I drove up to Huntingdon last week and dropped off a 405-2 for service. I haven't found customer service to the level that QUAD provide for many, many years, truly outstanding and I met the engineer who was doing the work for me. I complemented him on the level of service and he replied, "Well we have some really fantastic and loyal customers, so it makes the job easy"

Anyway, a great read and thanks very much for sharing - I may do something similar if I hit 6,000 posts, about why I went down the file based audio route?

Chin, chin fella

:cheers:

MartinT
18-08-2013, 13:08
Barry - the only manufacturer who have given me a similar level of service in the past were SME.

Tim - excellent idea, I was thinking of doing the same thing when I hit 15,000 posts.

Alex_UK
18-08-2013, 19:44
Wow, Barry, we have an early contender for "post of the year" I feel!

I know Quad aren't British owned any more, but they are still a proper British company who know how to do customer service.

Congrats on the 7k. :)

DSJR
18-08-2013, 20:18
The 520f is a TERRIBLE soggy monstrosity of a power amp and you need to donate your example to me IMMEDIATELY!!!!! :rofl: ;) :respect: Why the related and beefed up 606 wasn't styled similarly I don't know, the breeze-block looks hardly purposeful, even if most are hidden away :scratch:

I was told the 50E's weren't as good as the 303. I take it your experiences are different to this? By the way, a 606 can happily drive 57's and this combination is sublime. A friend has used this, with the limiters in her 1978 vintage 57's, for well over twenty years now with no hiccups at all (small cottage sitting room but with lots of 'stuff' behind the speakers to break up rear reflections...

Rare Bird
18-08-2013, 20:38
The '240' was a nice power amp... Nice living room Barry :eyebrows:

I don't think i could live with any other Quad but the 3 series..

Gordon Steadman
18-08-2013, 20:40
The 520f is a TERRIBLE soggy monstrosity of a power amp and you need to donate your example to me IMMEDIATELY!!!!! :rofl: ;) :respect: Why the related and beefed up 606 wasn't styled similarly I don't know, the breeze-block looks hardly purposeful, even if most are hidden away :scratch:

I was told the 50E's weren't as good as the 303. I take it your experiences are different to this? By the way, a 606 can happily drive 57's and this combination is sublime. A friend has used this, with the limiters in her 1978 vintage 57's, for well over twenty years now with no hiccups at all (small cottage sitting room but with lots of 'stuff' behind the speakers to break up rear reflections...

I'm sure Barry will give his opinion but I can confirm that the 50Ds were considerably better than the 303. I understand that the Ds and Es are basically the same apart from output options. I used mine as back up to the Stereo20 and they came very close indeed through the 57s.

Barry
19-08-2013, 13:38
The '240' was a nice power amp... Nice living room Barry :eyebrows:

I don't think I could live with any other Quad but the 3 series..

I never heard one, but they are the rarest item in the Quad stable - only 180 of them were made.

Know what you mean about the Series 3 electronics; for me it is the wonderful styling of the 33, FM2, FM3 and AM3, as well as that of the more utilitarian 50D, 50E and 303 power amplifiers. I didn't mention it my post, but I was surprised to learn that it was Peter Walker who designed the cosmetics. (Had I mentioned it, it would have appeared to be even more of a hagiography!)

Good to have you back with us André

Regards

Figlet108
19-08-2013, 13:54
My Life with Quad
1 They don’t do bass. Agreed, they don’t go much below 50Hz and roll of at a rate that is asymptotic to 18dB/octave (i.e. fast).

But what bass they do is pure and clean without any “enhancement” (that is frequency doubling) by any enclosure. Just listen to a 40Hz note played on an electric bass – it is so clean. And anyway I was never a bass freak – I have attended enough live rock concerts to know I don’t like to have my guts ‘churned’ by high volume bass notes. Nor am I a fan of the pipe organ, so do not miss the deep notes. (The beginning of R. Strauss’s Also Sprach Zarathustra starts with a bass note of 32Hz, and with some recordings 16Hz. This comes across well enough on the Quads, though it doesn’t have the ‘weight’ that other speakers provide.) Peter Walker designed his speaker with domestic considerations in mind: he had no intention of foisting wardrobe-sized units on anyone. His design was a practical compromise between bass extension and size.

If you want to extend the bass performance, try stacking a pair of Quad ESLs (if you have the room), or use a sub-woofer (which is not without its own set of problems of integration).

2 They can’t be played loud. Agreed, and for many this is a serious shortcoming as it means the Quads cannot really impart a true sense of dynamics.

Without wishing to sidestep the issue, I have attended enough live concerts (especially orchestral concerts) to know that there are very few systems available that can truly reproduce dynamics without compromise. I’m happy with what the Quads can do - when the software allows it (!) I don’t play music loud enough so as to feel I’m having my ears battered. Again, I attended enough rock concerts in my youth to know I have had enough of loud music. The sensitivity of the Quad ESLs is 82dB/W, which when driven by a 50W amplifier achieves 99-100dB, and that's loud enough for me!

Overdriving the Quads in an attempt to increase the volume is a serious issue: they will be damaged by arcing between the motor and the stator electrodes, if they are fed with an audio signal of greater than 30V. In practice this means 20V rms or about 50W.

3 They are directional; they ‘beam’, so much so there is really only seat (the ‘hot seat’) where one can hear the superb imaging and soundstage. In other words they are anti-social speakers and have been likened to a giant set of headphones – only one listener can enjoy them.

True, and I have had friends complain of the sound staging, until that is, they sit in my chair, or alongside it. Sadly the directional properties, both in the vertical plane and horizontal plane are as a result of the layout of the ‘drivers’ in the speaker. Directionality in the vertical plane is due to all the drivers being ‘line drivers’, that is, consisting of vertical strips, though this directionality has been somewhat ameliorated by making the drivers curve in a shallow arc. The vertical directivity can be reduced by either raising the speakers about 10" off the floor or by tilting them forward by raising the rear leg by about 3" (subject to experimentation). People sat in higher seats when the Quad ESL was designed. Nowadays, easy chairs allow people to sit lower down, so the treble ‘beam’ shoots over the listener’s head. Tilting them forward (at the risk of making them physically unstable) allows the treble beam to be directed at ones ears. Beaming in the horizontal plane is due to either the narrow width of the treble line driver, or to the interference pattern caused by the mid and bass driver pairs, which flank the central tweeter.


Hi Barry,

I'm very new to Quad having only just got a pair of ESL 2805s a few months ago so forgive my johnny-come-lately impertinence and I haven't heard ESL 57s so don't know how they compare to the 2805s.
However everything that you say about how wonderful the 57s are resonates with my short experience of the 2805s. I would say though that I have not experienced any of the first 3 negatives you mention. Bass is deep and powerful and they play *loud*, certainly in my attic anyway. A blast of Daft Punk at volume soon shuts up any ESL skeptic that has visited. I also don't get the beaming with the 2805s.

I'm so smitten with them that I can't ever imagine being without them (or one of their successors). Once you hear ESLs it's hard to compromise with anything else.

Anyway, my point is, what am I missing - why haven't you moved up the ESL range? 2805s for example can be got used mint for about £2k, which for an exit level speaker isn't outrageous.

Excellent post by the way - very informative.

Rare Bird
19-08-2013, 13:57
Barry:
I was on a studio Engineering course when i first encountered the '240' they had a pair of them.. i know about the low numbers but that makes me wonder sometimes because i see quite a lot turn up on auction!

I'm only back till someone rattles my cage :lol:

Barry
19-08-2013, 14:21
The 520f is a TERRIBLE soggy monstrosity of a power amp and you need to donate your example to me IMMEDIATELY!!!!! :rofl: ;) :respect: Why the related and beefed up 606 wasn't styled similarly I don't know, the breeze-block looks hardly purposeful, even if most are hidden away :scratch:

I was told the 50E's weren't as good as the 303. I take it your experiences are different to this? By the way, a 606 can happily drive 57's and this combination is sublime. A friend has used this, with the limiters in her 1978 vintage 57's, for well over twenty years now with no hiccups at all (small cottage sitting room but with lots of 'stuff' behind the speakers to break up rear reflections...

The '500' power amps were a development of the 405, whereby the single output transistors of the 405 were doubled up in the 510 and 520. Incidently the circuits of the 510 and 520 are identical, save the 510 is a single channel amplifier, employing an output transformer to couple to the speaker load (as did the Quad 50s), whereas in the 520 (a two channel amplifier) the coupling is direct. The 606 went one step further and employed 3 output transistors in parallel.

It is obviously a matter of taste as to whether you prefer the professional looking 19" rack mounting style of the 500s, or the more domestic styling of the 606, 707 or 909. That aside, the 500s use XLR connectors and (on my sample) Neutrik 'Speakon' connectors. I don't have WAF to consider! (:() Quad 520s occasionally appear on Ebay, and go for about £300. Most, if not all, are ex-studio and have been "well used", that is, are scruffy cosmetically.

When I used my 50Es, they were to try out the idea of locating monoblock amps directly behind the speakers with the minimum of speaker cable (less than a foot) and use long runs of balanced-line cable back to a preamp with balanced outputs. The idea worked well, but from memory, I think I found that overall the SQ maybe was not quite as good as either the 303 or my, heavily modified, 405-1. I ought to repeat the comparison, but this time under similar conditions: short unbalanced interconnects between the preamp and power amps, with long speaker cables used for both. Having to "faff about" with different connectors though does nothing to encourage me to undertake this comparison.

Anyway, I now have achieved my ambition of using close-coupled power monoblocks with balanced line feeds from the preamp, by using Levinson ML-2s fed by either a Levinson 26 or 28 preamp. And overall the SQ now is considerably better than that provided by the Quads.

The Grand Wazoo
19-08-2013, 18:37
What a great tale Barry, and as usual, so nicely told.
I've only ever owned 1 piece of Quad equipment, which I shamefully allowed to languish in a box for far too long. But you know that, don't you!

synsei
19-08-2013, 18:45
I really like the 306 I have just now, its sheer openness and finesse compared to other amps I've had in my system is a joy to behold, but it has got me wondering about its bigger brother, the 606. What extras would a 606 bring to the party bearing in mind that the speakers I'm using can only handle 60 watts?

MartinT
19-08-2013, 19:18
Bigger power amps rarely have anything to do with requiring more power, Dave. It's about gaining control by better damping factor - giving you deeper and tighter bass; and authority by not capping those rare but mighty transients that only occur infrequently in music.

The overall effect of a bigger amp with similar circuit is of structural authority, more realistic dynamics and greater insight into the music.

Rare Bird
19-08-2013, 19:20
I use 90db speekarse with 12 watt amp, loads of power on tap..

synsei
19-08-2013, 19:27
Bigger power amps rarely have anything to do with requiring more power, Dave. It's about gaining control by better damping factor - giving you deeper and tighter bass; and authority by not capping those rare but mighty transients that only occur infrequently in music.

The overall effect of a bigger amp with similar circuit is of structural authority, more realistic dynamics and greater insight into the music.

The thing is Martin the 306 shows a clean pair of heels to just about every other power amp I've used, including the Valhalla, although this amp has its own charms, especially in the midrange. What has become apparent is that the Hafler DH220 I ran for a couple of years was not a good amp, despite all the money I spent on it to 'improve' it. Even though it could heft 110wpc into the DM2's it did not control the bass or offer anywhere near the extension this little Quad does, which makes me even more curious about the 606 ;)

The Black Adder
19-08-2013, 19:58
Magnificent write up... What a corker!

MartinT
19-08-2013, 20:51
The thing is Martin the 306 shows a clean pair of heels to just about every other power amp I've used, including the Valhalla, although this amp has its own charms, especially in the midrange. What has become apparent is that the Hafler DH220 I ran for a couple of years was not a good amp, despite all the money I spent on it to 'improve' it. Even though it could heft 110wpc into the DM2's it did not control the bass or offer anywhere near the extension this little Quad does, which makes me even more curious about the 606 ;)

Oh yes, I recognise such statements. I once constructed a huge MOSFET power amp with 1.3kW power supplies based on the Hitachi circuit. It sounded flat, lifeless and frankly dull. So did the Hitachi.

It isn't about power, it's about delivery. Two key factors are damping (how low is the impedance such that it controls the cones with a vice-like grip); fast voltage swing (how quickly does it respond to requirements for transient current demand, while delivering the required voltage). Of course, it must be of low distortion in its basic circuit.

It's not for nothing that so many circuit topologies have been tried. To bring things back on topic, Quad's current dumping circuit as introduced in the 405 is a fascinating study into the use of cheap transistors in order to achieve its aims.

DSJR
20-08-2013, 12:56
The '500' power amps were a development of the 405, whereby the single output transistors of the 405 were doubled up in the 510 and 520. Incidently the circuits of the 510 and 520 are identical, save the 510 is a single channel amplifier, employing an output transformer to couple to the speaker load (as did the Quad 50s), whereas in the 520 (a two channel amplifier) the coupling is direct. The 606 went one step further and employed 3 output transistors in parallel.



I *think* the 520 series used the revised input circuit of the 606 and onwards, with the op-amp outside the signal path, unless I'm very much mistaken :scratch: That's why I have this sneaky longing for one :)

The 606 IS a great amp, especially with the supply caps taken to the later values (15k instead of 10k). I think the other difference was the mains transformer changing in the mk2 models. Either way, warm-up time seemed reduced in the mk2 onwards and the sound retained that lovely non-harsh 'velvet' quality the 303 and II's have in abundance. The HFW review of the 909 sums the family 'Quad' sound up beautifully IMO :)

JJack
22-08-2013, 17:32
What a great post!

Barry
22-08-2013, 22:40
I *think* the 520 series used the revised input circuit of the 606 and onwards, with the op-amp outside the signal path, unless I'm very much mistaken That's why I have this sneaky longing for one.

Yes, you are right Dave. I have just had a look at the circuit diagram for both the 510 and 520. The low-level Class A amp is now composed of discrete transistors. The op-amp to which you refer is part of the feedback loop, where it is used to preserve DC control.

Barry
22-08-2013, 23:09
Hi Barry,

I'm very new to Quad having only just got a pair of ESL 2805s a few months ago so forgive my johnny-come-lately impertinence and I haven't heard ESL 57s so don't know how they compare to the 2805s.
However everything that you say about how wonderful the 57s are resonates with my short experience of the 2805s. I would say though that I have not experienced any of the first 3 negatives you mention. Bass is deep and powerful and they play *loud*, certainly in my attic anyway. A blast of Daft Punk at volume soon shuts up any ESL skeptic that has visited. I also don't get the beaming with the 2805s.

I'm so smitten with them that I can't ever imagine being without them (or one of their successors). Once you hear ESLs it's hard to compromise with anything else.

Anyway, my point is, what am I missing - why haven't you moved up the ESL range? 2805s for example can be got used mint for about £2k, which for an exit level speaker isn't outrageous.

Excellent post by the way - very informative.

Hello Jason,

I'm pleased to hear you are delighted with the Quad 2805s. Both the 2805 and it's bigger brother, the 2905, built on the strengths of the 988 and 989 respectively; themselves being a development of the Quad 63. The 63 was a fairly radical change of design of electrostatic speakers: consisting of a series of concentric annular electrodes sequentially fed via a delay line to mimic a point source.

I did hear the 63 when it came out in 1981, and recognised that it could reproduce deeper bass than that of the 57, and could play louder. I was not particularly convinced of the 'point source' scheme (I had my doubts about the contribution of the delay circuitry to the sound). Put simply, I saw no reason to replace my 57s.

Of course the 2805 and 2905 are the latest incarnation and one presumes they have improved on the 63. I would expect the bass to be better still, and for them to play louder (what is the sensitivity of the 2805?), be free of beaming, along with the advantages gained through an increase in the rigidity of the speaker frame.

So why haven't replaced my 57s with them? That's difficult to answer, but in the first instance I haven't heard a pair, or even sought out a Quad dealer who could demonstrate them (or better still, A/B them against the 57s). Second, I have got so used to my 57s, they do everything that want from a loudspeaker: their strengths are very, very important to me, conversely their weaknesses are not that important to me. I suspect that maybe I'm one of those people who just like vintage equipment - my turntables, and cartridges are 'vintage', so too are my tape machines.

But if ever I find a Quad dealer who can demonstrate either the 2805 or 2905, I will give them a listen.

Regards

Rare Bird
23-08-2013, 10:28
Nice Barry
I would always choose the '57' over any of the other of their models, however if i was in the market for a set i would try my hardest to locate a pair of Braun's 'LE1'..

MartinT
23-08-2013, 10:39
The 2905s are very impressive speakers and I could certainly live with them, although ultimately bass power was not at the level I prefer for church organ. Staggering detail and clarity.

Figlet108
23-08-2013, 11:09
Hi Barry,

thanks for your response - for a while there I feared I'd annoyed you with my post which obviously wasn't my intention.
Interesting about the evolution of the 57s -> 2905 - I didn't appreciate how radical the design change was after the 57s. That now explains why there's such a loyal following for the 57s despite the newer models coming out. I hadn't quite understood it before and I guess that was really the point of my post.

In my case I've never heard *any* Quad kit before and the 2805s were a bit of an impulse buy based on their history and heritage and the theory of how Electrostatics work, which intrigues me and makes a lot of sense to me.
I'd love to compare 57s, my 2805s and the top 2912s in my home to hear the difference, but reality is that will never happen - they are just too heavy and bulky and would be practically impossible to organise.

Either way, my limited experience of my 2805s leads me to believe that any of Quad's speaker range are very special and hard to give up once experienced - I certainly don't ever plan to replace them, and clearly nor do you :)

Incidentally sensitivity is specified as: 1.5 mbar per volt referred to 1m (86dB/2.83V RMS equivalent), which seems to be the same for both the 2805/2812 and 2905/2912

Figlet108
23-08-2013, 11:38
Martin, did you ever do a direct comparison of the 2905s with any of the other ESLs out of interest?

As for bass power, you're right they won't compete with your Ushers, but then again not much will - plenty of subs out there don't go down to the 22Hz your Ushers are speced at :)
My Audiovectors downstairs are speced down to 24Hz I think, and in the (too) small room they are in makes for some fun times when in the mood. And while there are certain things that are only fully satisfying on the AVs, I'm actually finding myself listening to the Quads 90% of the time, which has surprised me since I am a bit of an AV fanboy...

Ali Tait
23-08-2013, 13:06
Great post Barry. Have to agree with you/Jason about statics, what they do well they do better than anything else. I must get my Acorns up and running again!

Ali Tait
23-08-2013, 13:07
Martin, did you ever do a direct comparison of the 2905s with any of the other ESLs out of interest?

As for bass power, you're right they won't compete with your Ushers, but then again not much will - plenty of subs out there don't go down to the 22Hz your Ushers are speced at :)
My Audiovectors downstairs are speced down to 24Hz I think, and in the (too) small room they are in makes for some fun times when in the mood. And while there are certain things that are only fully satisfying on the AVs, I'm actually finding myself listening to the Quads 90% of the time, which has surprised me since I am a bit of an AV fanboy...

I'm not surprised Jason. Once you're hooked...

Figlet108
23-08-2013, 13:45
Thing that's really surprised me Ali is that usually I'll research something to death before I buy and then hopefully keep it for a long long time. E.g. the AVs were the product of 6 months intense research and auditioning.
And yet within the space of a few weeks I bought both the Quads and the EAR 509s based purely on intuition as soon as I saw them advertised and they've turned out to be without doubt the best sounding system I've personally heard...

Anyway, apologies for thread drift. Back on topic...

MartinT
23-08-2013, 15:01
Martin, did you ever do a direct comparison of the 2905s with any of the other ESLs out of interest?

Hi Jason

Yes, I heard the 2805 immediately followed by the 2905 in the same room. They were initially powered by the re-launched Quad II valve power amps and I thought the whole presentation was too warm and cuddly for my liking. I had brought my Chord power amp along and that was a terrific combination. There was precious little difference between the two speakers except for the obviously greater bass extension and power, and an impression of improved dynamics (or less compression, if you like).

I don't want to overcook any lack of bass power as my Ushers are extreme in that department. I really could live with the 2905s and hold them in very high regard. Are the 2912 even larger (never heard of them)?

Rare Bird
23-08-2013, 15:19
I'm i the only person that believe that an original Product should be left as it is & the idea not reincarnated over & over again?

Figlet108
23-08-2013, 15:27
Thanks for sharing that experience Martin.

I genuinely have no idea what the difference is with the 2x12 models. The specs are almost exactly the same, just 3 or 4 cm higher.
I'd love to know if anyone has any info.

Here's the page for the 2912. (http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/Series.aspx?lang=En&Tab=ESL%202912)

Figlet108
23-08-2013, 15:35
I'm i the only person that believe that an original Product should be left as it is & the idea not reincarnated over & over again?

Probably not Andre, but it depends on the industry and the company in question. In the computer industry if the world had to suffer at the hands of v1 software and hardware, we'd all be f**ked. Imagine the first version of Windows, MacOS, the iphone etc etc...

And there is a difference between modifying an idea and modifying its implementation in the form of a product. Perfection in ideas is relatively easy. Realising that perfection in a product is very difficult and often requires prototypes, experience in the field and dealing with the unexpected effects of reality as opposed to theory. There's also often the restriction of getting enough funding for a perfect implementation of a new and unproved idea...

Barry
23-08-2013, 16:34
Nice Barry
I would always choose the '57' over any of the other of their models, however if I was in the market for a set I would try my hardest to locate a pair of Braun's 'LE1'..

Ha ha - I thought you might! :)

Braun built the LE1s under licence from Quad. Only 500 pairs were made. Rumour has it they were better built than the 57s; they certainly used slightly higher EHT voltages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRAUN_LE1

And there is the unquestionably elegant looks of their Bauhaus styling:

http://www.radiomuseum.org/images/radio/braun_frankfurt/lautsprecher_einheit_le1_846916.jpg


Quadmusikwiedergabe in Germany could supply you with a ‘new’ pair for €6,000 (!)

http://www.quad-musik.com/html/braun_le1_.html

MartinT
23-08-2013, 17:55
I'm i the only person that believe that an original Product should be left as it is & the idea not reincarnated over & over again?

It goes back to the early 1970s days of Japanese electronics, Andr'e. Some people would say they hit their stride pretty quickly but every six months or so a new model with slightly different features would appear. It doesn't mean we like them any less.

I would love a set of Pioneer Elite monoblocks, for instance, despite their being the result of a long slow evolution.

Ammonite Audio
23-08-2013, 19:49
Ha ha - I thought you might! :)

Braun built the LE1s under licence from Quad. Only 500 pairs were made. Rumour has it they were better built than the 57s; they certainly used slightly higher EHT voltages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRAUN_LE1

And there is the unquestionably elegant looks of their Bauhaus styling:

http://www.radiomuseum.org/images/radio/braun_frankfurt/lautsprecher_einheit_le1_846916.jpg


Quadmusikwiedergabe in Germany could supply you with a ‘new’ pair for €6,000 (!)

http://www.quad-musik.com/html/braun_le1_.html

I was chatting to the chaps at One Thing about these - apparently they are bas***ds to work on.

mjkelshaw
24-08-2013, 07:17
Barry,
I found this 'thread' accidentally, as I have never previously read "Strokes of Genius", given that my knowledge of 'electronics' is zero. However I really enjoyed your post, not only was it well written, more importantly, it was 'informative' for a non-technical reader.
I purchased new Quad 33 / 303 units around 1975, along with a used TD 124 and a 2nd hand pair of DM70's, then later an FM3 plus 2nd hand versions of the AM3 (European & Overseas). Unfortunately I sold the earlier Quad items and a 34/306/FM 4 system in 2010/2011 when I was preparing to spend my 'declining years' in China, which didn't happened, but that's another story.
Earlier this year I purchased a 44 / FM 4 (courtesy of 'Lord Mortlock') and a 405-2 from a dealer, all of which were forwarded directly to Rob Beales at Amp Labs for servicing (Highly Recommended).
Finally, last weekend, a couple of months after the 'package' was received from Amp Labs, I had the time to unpack it in the 'man cupboard' at my proposed 'retirement home' in Torquay. The units all looked pristine, so I quickly connected them up together with my 401 - sheer bliss. It would be interesting to compare this 'current' system with my previous 34/306 combination as I think that the 306 is very 'under rated' amp.
Thanks once again for your post - I'm sure that I shall be reading it again - several times.

Regards

Mike Kelshaw

Barry
24-08-2013, 14:05
Thanks for you post Mike.

Ummm! 33/303 plus TD124 and Bowers & Wilkins DM70s. Nice, very nice. :)

I was fascinated by the DM70s when they first appeared, though I couldn't afford them. As you may know, electrostatics have difficulty reproducing bass frequencies at high volume: they simply can't shift enough air. To get around this problem there have, over the years, been several attemps at hybrid designs, whereby a large moving coil driver deals with the bass, with an electrostatic array dealing with the mid and treble.

Unfortunately with hybrid designs there has always been the problem of integrating the two: the bass units are roughly cardoid or omnidirectional in their polar pattern, whereas electrostatic arrays have a dipole pattern. This means that there is never a smooth cross-over between the two. Did you notice this with your DM70s when you used them?

Your AM3s are quite rare, especially the Overseas version (this has one MW band and two SW bands), and now fetch a a good price on eBay.

You ought to get a lot of satisfaction and enjoyment from your 44/405-2 and FM4 gear - I can speak from experience. Are you still using the DM70's, are they the Classic version or the Continental version?

Finally, may I ask what is the connection with China - did you work out there?

Regards

synsei
24-08-2013, 14:45
It would be interesting to compare this 'current' system with my previous 34/306 combination as I think that the 306 is a very 'under rated' amp.

As do I Mike having recently purchased a well looked after example which was serviced last year. It ain't going anywhere as I like it a lot :)

mjkelshaw
24-08-2013, 18:41
Barry,
I purchased all my DM70's 2nd hand. The first pair were from a 'milkman', actually I think he had a small depot from where he distributed milk. I went to his house, which turned out to be a huge detached 'Victorian' place and as we sat in what I think was his living room or one of them, which was massive, he explained that after he had brought the DM70's home, his wife thought "that they were too large" - Ha! Ha! They were packed into their original boxes and I had to struggle to get them into the Rover P5 Coupe which I owned at the time. I sold them later, after my 1st wife had decided to 'invest' all our assets into distillery products, but that's another storey.
Later when I had managed to save some more money, I purchased another 2 pairs, 1 of the pairs were labelled as "Sony SS GB's" which were in fact, re-labelled DM70 Continentals. I took both pairs with me when I emigrated to Canada in '81 - "never to return" - Ha! Ha!
I brought both pairs back in '87, but when I finally unpacked them in Den Haag in '90 where I had had purchased a flat, and from where, yet again "I would never return" - Ha! Ha! I discovered that the roll surrounds of both bass drivers in the DM70 Continentals had perished, the grills in front of the bass units and various bits of veneer had been damaged.
Sadly, after I moved both pairs to Reading in '94, they were relegated to the garage to await repairs, then finally they were ignominiously consigned to the 'tip' after I had returned from working in China in 2004 and needed space for a 'bespoke' single seater BMW R100R motorcycle which had been built for me while I was away on assignment. However after being divorced for 22 years I had returned from China with my wife 'to be' and therefore the 'single seater' didn't get used much - yet another story.
I had worked on assignment in China from December 2002 until April 2004, first in Beijing and then later in Guangdong Province, where I had met my current wife. We were married in 2004, after we had returned to the U.K.- hence the 'Chinese' connection.
In 2011, 2 weeks into an 8 week trip to finalise the plans for our house in Nanchong, which is in Sichuan Province, I was taken into hospital,where I spent 5 weeks, which was "very interesting". After our return and my 'recovery', my wife decided that perhaps moving out there permanently was not such a good idea - I was really disappointed and it now looks as though I shall be spending my 'declining years' in Torquay.
As part of the 'preparations' for moving to China I had 'disposed of'' the single seater BMW, my Nakamichi CR7E, 33/303/FM3/AM3, 34/306/FM4, plus 1 pair of Royd Edens and I pair of Celestion Sl6si's, and countless other items which I could not take to the P.R.C. - Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Looking on the bright side - I had not sold my other BMW R100 GS P.D., I still have a TD 124, a Lorricraft 401 and now I also have a set of refurbished / upgraded Quad items and another pair of Celestion Sl6s's to go with them - Result happiness? well almost - Ha! Ha!
I would love to own some electrostatics again, but my new house is small and my 'man cupboard' barely accommodates the things that I have already - but who knows what my happen in the future!
Way back in the mid '70's I listened to a pair of KLH9's which were driven by a very LARGE American amp and were the equivalent of having 2 extra doors in your 'listening room', and which I was told needed to be positioned at least 4 feet from any surface - but when I closed my eyes - Cleo Laine was standing in front of me singing - now those were impressive.
Sorry to have 'rambled on' about non-audio matters.

Regards

Mike Kelshaw

Barry
24-08-2013, 19:12
Thank you for your very full and interesting reply Mike.

You certainly have been around - working in both Canada and China. Phew! Makes me appear very unadventurous spending 29 years with the same company.

KLH9s - wow, that is one full-range electrostatic design I would have loved to have heard. Big though, as you say, like having two room dividers! It seems though that they proved not to be very reliable, and reliability of any audio product is very important to me; hence my predilection towards Quads.

The only other large, American full-range electrostatic speakers I have heard were the Dayton-Wright XG8 Mk. III. http://www.dayton-wright.com/XG-8-Mk3.html

Filled with sulphur hexafluoride to help with acoustic matching, as well as to increase the breakdown voltage and hence the power they could handle, this was a design to be reckoned with. I listened to a pair in the early ‘80s, and have to confess I was not especially impressed with them. It turned out that the Dayton-Wrights were not particularly reliable either.

Regards

Barry
24-08-2013, 19:35
The following two links might be of interest. The first is Stereophile’s review of the KLH 9, the second is a list of what the author regards as “the twelve most significant loudspeakers of all time”. The latter is obviously subjective, but it is satisfying to see several electrostatic designs included – and to see the Quad 57 in first place!

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/666klh/index.html

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1308-The-12-Most-Significant-Loudspeakers-of-All-Time

Figlet108
24-08-2013, 20:22
Very interesting Barry, thanks for sharing.

One thing I don't really understand regarding the ESL 63 and onwards:

The point-source thing is nice in a way, but tends to produce a very compact, vertically small image, the so-called "horizontal slit" effect. To get an adequate sense of image height, and also to prevent strong reflections off the floor--to get the most from these speaker spatially, in other words--most listeners find that you have to get your ears even with the middle of the panel, which means elevating the speaker 18 inches or so off the floor. But this causes a suck out in the orchestral power range of 100 to 200 Hz, something the Quad does not need. Alternatively, you can angle the speaker back a few degrees, which helps treble extension and clarity, but still makes it seem like you are looking down on the sound stage. Of course, the larger 989 and 2905 solve this problem, but give you added brightness in the exchange.

I don't really get the bit in bold. How does raising the speaker do that? Anyone understand the physics of it?

Barry
24-08-2013, 21:12
Interesting Jason.

Where did your quote in italics come from? Whilst I cannot question the observations (it has been over 30 years since I heard a pair of 63s), I can't give you an explanation of it in terms of the physics. Have you notice the phenomena described?

Leave it with me to think about and to do a bit of research.

DSJR
24-08-2013, 21:20
I think it depends on the listening room in all honesty. UK rooms seem to take off a bit in the mid-bass and the domestic issue 63's had grilles which angled the treble down into the floor. getting them well off the floor and tilted back a little turned them into a different and IMO far better beast entirely, the soundfield nothing like as pinched and constricted as 57's, which have huge dispersion issues. Thing is, 'everyone' is blind to the 57 nasties as the good things get magnified out of all recognition. Don't get me wrong, the 57's can sound charming, but my gawd they're hard work a lot of the time IMO :)

Figlet108
25-08-2013, 02:53
...Where did your quote in italics come from?... Have you notice the phenomena described?...
Barry, I think this link (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1308-The-12-Most-Significant-Loudspeakers-of-All-Time&p=15450&viewfull=1#post15450) will take you directly there, under the heading Quad ESL 63.

No I haven't noticed the phenomenon in bold which is why it caught my attention.

mjkelshaw
25-08-2013, 03:18
Barry,
Apologies for forgetting to address your question regarding whether I noticed any problems with the 'integration' of the bass and electrostatic units in the DM70's that I owned. The short answer is no. Perhaps that's because although my taste in music is 'catholic', it is 'uneducated' and unfortunately I know little of 'classical' music and tend to listen to music produced on a 'smaller' scale - I have noticed that I certainly have a predeliction for female vocalists - Ha! Ha!
Regarding the KHL9's I heard them at an hotel 'Hifi Show', which was being held at Manchester Airport in the mid 70's. I was / still am, partial to '57's and after I had arrived at the venue, I discovered that the KLH 9's were being demonstrated in one of the rooms and promptly went there. I found a rather 'lonlely' looking chap, a pair of 'doors' and I think it was a 'pair' of very large American power amps, the 'brand' of which, I cannot now recall, nor can I recall the turntable and arm being used.
I can however, recall that I introduced myself, hastily adding that unless I 'won the 'pools' I had no chance of actually purchasing a pair of the KLH 9's, but would really like to hear them. The 'salesman' was very charming and offered me a 'demonstration', and asked me to select an LP from a selection which he had, and the one I chose was a Cleo Laine recording, again unfortunately I cannot now recall which one, and I sat down.
I was facing the two speakers which were positioned apart and away from the room boundaries as previously mentioned. I closed my eyes and Cleo Laine was singing directly to me - the effect was 'magical' I listened to one side of the LP and left wondering where I could raise £2500 which I think was the asking price - it was a long time ago and I have since lived and worked in Australia, Belgium, Canada, China, Holland and South Africa. However to return to the point, at that time, in that place, I was, to put it in the local vernacular, 'Gob Smacked'
However to try and return to the point, given my musical 'preferencs' I think that it must be the clarity or transparency of electrostatics in the mid to upper range that I like so much. At that time, I was looking for my first pair of 'proper' speakers after purchasing the Quad 33/303 units. I also really liked the Spendor BC1, but in fact I purchased the 1st pair of DM70's without actually hearing them demonstrated, because I thought that the combination of the electrostatic unit and a large bass unit, plus B & W's reputation, would guarantee that I would like the sound that they would produce.
I remember getting them home, connecting them up and then sitting back totally impressed. I was using my Quad 33 /303 plus a 2nd hand TD 124 which I had purchased, complete with an SME 3009 series 2 arm - but without a cartridge, for the princely sum of £60 from an 'HiFi' shop in Stockport one Saturday morning. The shop had a window dedicated to 2nd hand items which I regularly perused each Saturday morning on the way to and from the open air market. In fact, I borrowed said £60 from my 1st wife, as I didn't normally carry that much money around - happy days.

Regards

Mike Kelshaw

TheMooN
25-08-2013, 08:52
Alternatively, you can angle the speaker back a few degrees, which helps treble extension and clarity, but still makes it seem like you are looking down on the sound stage. Of course, the larger 989 and 2905 solve this problem, but give you added brightness in the exchange.[/I]

Having begun my own personal electrostatic journey with ESL-57's ( I retain two pairs ) , on through the chronology of models culminating in the ESL-2905 I recognize the text in bold as a sonic characteristic of the 989/2905 models that I , for my part, ultimately found a little too fatiguing to live with .

A good deal of the slight glassy hardness which could manifest itself in the upper mid's and top end at higher SPL's and with certain recorded material can be ameliorated somewhat with a few component modifications to the crossover circuit performed on the 988's and 989's which however I was unable to perform on the 2905's as they were still within warranty but I have heard the post surgical effects on other 2905's .

Quad have I believe taken on board elements of customer feedback with regard to the 989/2905 models and have implemented a number of changes in their latest models 2812 and 2912 which, to my mind, have re-introduced a discern-able ' naturality of tone and timbre ' arguably not audible , imho, since the ESL63's .

Figlet108
25-08-2013, 09:09
Quad have I believe taken on board elements of customer feedback with regard to the 989/2905 models and have implemented a number of changes in their latest models 2812 and 2912 which, to my mind, have re-introduced a discern-able ' naturality of tone and timbre ' arguably not audible , imho, since the ESL63's .

Hey that's great info Roger, thanks for sharing. I have been wondering for a while now what the difference was with the 2812 and 2912 models, as there's nothing in the literature and the specs look identical.

Are you tempted to try acquiring a 2x12 model? I don't think I've ever seen them come up in the used market...

TheMooN
25-08-2013, 09:23
Whilst not featuring in my immediate Stars , I would certainly give serious consideration to an ex-demo pair of 2812's .

Figlet108
25-08-2013, 09:29
Roger, we'll have to fight for it if one comes up! And remember all's fair in love and hifi so be prepared :D

Barry
25-08-2013, 19:14
Thanks Roger for your post and clarification concerning the newer 2812 and 2912 models. Quad's own web-site failed to make it clear.

jandl100
30-08-2013, 07:01
What an interesting thread. :)

I've had a fair amount of Quad kit in my time.

I started with the 63 stats when they first came out - I recall hiring a van and driving it into central London - good old KJ Leisuresound - to pick them up! I'd not been married long and we were in the process of buying our first house - the wife suggested to get an extra £1,000 on our first mortgage to buy the Quads! What a lovely lass - she still is, too.
They started off with a cheap (£55!) Nikko amp from Laskys, then I upped to a Quad 405 mk1. To be honest, it wasn't that much of an improvement, kind of soggy - but then the 405 was upped to a mk2 - my gosh, what a difference! I call the 405 mk2 the first "real amp" that I owned.
After reading some comments in a hifi mag, I tried an Audiolab 8000P power amp - bye bye Quad amps :lol:. That Audiolab really got the 63s under control with substantial improvement in transparency and detail, too.

I kept the 63s for 7 years, so I must have enjoyed them!
They were eventually ousted by the then-new ProAc Response 2 - small floorstanders that did everything the Quads did, and a lot more besides, imho.

I did a brief return to Quad speakers with a pair of 57 quite a while later, and to be honest I rate them as superior to any 63 or successor speaker I have heard. There is more insight and resolution and the 'dynamic tracking' of the music is faster and better, although they aren't as tonally neutral and the treble beaming is a bit of a pain. But that's just my opinion, obviously.

I've also owned a 99 CDP that pleasantly surprised me, and a 606 power and 77 pre that didn't.

kenworthy100
30-08-2013, 07:18
My experience with Quad has predominantly been with the 303 power amp, not only a super little amp but a great way to learn about restoration and repair, it is such a logical layout, all parts are accessible. Over the years I have probably had a dozen which have all been recapped and repaired.

Barry
30-08-2013, 15:28
My experience with Quad has predominantly been with the 303 power amp, not only a super little amp but a great way to learn about restoration and repair, it is such a logical layout, all parts are accessible. Over the years I have probably had a dozen which have all been recapped and repaired.

Good for you John - but why so many 303s? Do you buy them, repair/refurbish them and sell them on?