Musicality

[Gordon Steadman]

I have been looking at the thread about favourite drum solos. My choice was Joe Morello who was technically up there but for me (and who else can I speak for?) his real talent was bringing out the music no matter how complex the beat.

I am stunned by some of the technical prowess of some musicians but am left totally cold by what they produce.

Do you think this is just because the genre doesn't appeal or just that some people don't have a musical bone in their body, no matter how proficient they have become on their chosen instrument.

I find someone like Eric Clapton, who I do enjoy, to be second rate beside BB King, who, despite playing half the notes at half the speed, is a musician in the real sense. Music must touch the soul (whatever that is) as well as the intellect (I think I put mine somewhere)

[The Grand Wazoo]

A great choice of subject for a thread, Gordon and 'touching the soul' is a great way to describe the thing that makes music so special to us all, I'm sure.

I know exactly what you mean about our Eric - I have a close attachment to a great deal of his work, but sometimes I wonder if he's an inspired cover artist with a small body of uncharacteristically good original material!
Exhibit one, yer honour:
Compare and contrast the two guitar solos here:

'My Back Pages' at the Bob Dylan 30th Anniversary Concert
Eric Clapton's solo which starts at 2' 09"
Neil Young's solo which starts at 4'15"

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Neil's is a sloppy mess. *Erics is clean and crisp, technically very nice indeed.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think the Eric version is a great piece of work but the second that Neil's effort comes in, I get a chill down my spine. Even as a You Tube video on crappy laptop speakers. Which is better?

[WOStantonCS100]

Which is better? Neither... It's possible to be sloppy or clean, technical or melodic and still be insanely musical. Those are lessons we should have learned from Bach and Ravel and a myriad of others.

From the same hands and mind of one man:

Melodic and "slow"

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Technical and "fast"

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Both great IMHO.

Other than someone just not having any grasp at of what "music" is (melody, harmony, rhythm, counterpoint, etc.), it's pretty much down to personal preference, init. My personal feeling is that outside of Cream and maybe, DATD, sadly, Mr. Clapton mostly bores me. (But the man's work, as I think he himself admits, was adversely affected by his mental well being (issues) at various times in his life. It shows.) I'm well aware this is only my response to some of his work and that my views are not shared by everyone. I'm ok with that. My interest in Neil Young varies according to his particular period of musical activity and with whom. I love the early stuff and Deja Vu is a favorite; however, some of his later stuff has come... and gone from my collection with a quickness.

[John]

I like both.
Shawn is probarly the most technical guitar player I ever seen I was in awe in what he could do on the guitar when I saw him but I also love someone like Jeff Beck who just phrases so well and has a wonderful sense of touch.
I like players who have a bit of both to be honest, a good technique and able to play with emotion. For me the player that really nails this is Larry Carlton has a touch of Django around his abilty to improvise with the feel of BB King. I tend not to like sloppy players.

[Gordon Steadman]

Perhaps I chose a poor example. I wasn't really suggesting that it was the speed that determined the 'musicality'. I was thinking of a particular concert where King and Clapton were playing together and BB just blew me away and Eric left me cold.

Anyway, I had never heard of Shawn Lane. Looks interesting, I'll have to trawl YouTube for a bit:)

Strangely though, having just listened to the second example, I didn't enjoy it as it felt to me like a technical exercise. As you say, different stuff moves us in different ways. One of my favourite examples is in classical guitar. A piece called Passapied by Bacarisse played by Narcisso Yepes and David Mozqueda. Yepes is very 'correct', dead in time, technically terrific and doesn't seem to have found a single musical part of it. Its not 'easy' music as it is clearly a very technical piece, so it takes a good musician to find it.

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[lurcher]

Perhaps I chose a poor example. I wasn't really suggesting that it was the speed that determined the 'musicality'. I was thinking of a particular concert where King and Clapton were playing together and BB just blew me away and Eric left me cold.

Anyway, I had never heard of Shawn Lane. Looks interesting, I'll have to trawl YouTube for a bit:)

Strangely though, having just listened to the second example, I didn't enjoy it as it felt to me like a technical exercise. As you say, different stuff moves us in different ways. One of my favourite examples is in classical guitar. A piece called Passapied by Bacarisse played by Narcisso Yepes and David Mozqueda. Yepes is very 'correct', dead in time, technically terrific and doesn't seem to have found a single musical part of it. Its not 'easy' music as it is clearly a very technical piece, so it takes a good musician to find it.

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But what you have to consider is that some music requires an ear that is used to what going on before it sounds musical. You cant treat "musical" as if its an absolute.

Here is an example. For many people, this classic recording will leave the realm of musical, for others it will remain one of the most wonderful thing ever


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH3JpqhpkXg

To ears used to major triads, a b7 sounds odd, to ears used to a b7, a 13 is odd, and so on.

[Gordon Steadman]

But what you have to consider is that some music requires an ear that is used to what going on before it sounds musical. You cant treat "musical" as if its an absolute.

Granted. But once the ears are trained to a particular music, then you can make a 'musical' judgement. I listen mostly to Classical music and Jazz. Love the Coltrane.

[Firebottle]

Agree with the David Mozqueda playing that piece with more 'passion' for want of a better description.

One of the most musical CDs in our collection is a compilation call Planet Africa from 1991, http://www.allmusic.com/album/planet-africa-mw0000270800

The copy I have has got 16 tracks on though, the web is only showing 11 :scratch:

:cool:Alan

[Gordon Steadman]

Agree with the David Mozqueda playing that piece with more 'passion' for want of a better description.

One of the most musical CDs in our collection is a compilation call Planet Africa from 1991, http://www.allmusic.com/album/planet-africa-mw0000270800

The copy I have has got 16 tracks on though, the web is only showing 11 :scratch:

:cool:Alan

Hmmm,

Shame but for some reason the site won't let me play the samples for some reason. Probably a PC thang!:-(

[John]

Yes I also really enjoy David interpration of the piece and agree with your views on this. To me this is how the guy is phrasing the notes, he connecting to the emotional intention of the music.
I also get where Lurcher coming from, music that using some outside notes will divide views but that does not mean its not musical, over the years of playing guitar my taste has widened greatly as my ear has got used to music that a bit more outside or modular based.

[WOStantonCS100]

Perhaps I chose a poor example. I wasn't really suggesting that it was the speed that determined the 'musicality'. I was thinking of a particular concert where King and Clapton were playing together and BB just blew me away and Eric left me cold.

Anyway, I had never heard of Shawn Lane. Looks interesting, I'll have to trawl YouTube for a bit:)

Strangely though, having just listened to the second example, I didn't enjoy it as it felt to me like a technical exercise. As you say, different stuff moves us in different ways. One of my favourite examples is in classical guitar. A piece called Passapied by Bacarisse played by Narcisso Yepes and David Mozqueda. Yepes is very 'correct', dead in time, technically terrific and doesn't seem to have found a single musical part of it. Its not 'easy' music as it is clearly a very technical piece, so it takes a good musician to find it.

LEyqcYW-HjE
nFUYHgeV1NM

Wish I didn't have to go to work right now. I'll definitely be viewing/listening to these two when I get home.

As an aside, who would be your favorite classical guitarist?

[WOStantonCS100]

I like both.
Shawn is probarly the most technical guitar player I ever seen I was in awe in what he could do on the guitar when I saw him but I also love someone like Jeff Beck who just phrases so well and has a wonderful sense of touch.
I like players who have a bit of both to be honest, a good technique and able to play with emotion. For me the player that really nails this is Larry Carlton has a touch of Django around his abilty to improvise with the feel of BB King. I tend not to like sloppy players.

Man, talk about Beck. He to me seems to be someone who has truly mastered the guitar in a technical way (playing slide way off the fretboard and nailing the notes - see Live at Ronnie Scott's) whilst playing some of the most beautiful melodies I've ever heard (and then just punishing the guitar with sheer rock abandon)... :-D


Oh and sloppy... Jimmy Page... but, I absolutely love what he did with Zeppelin; raw energy.

[Gordon Steadman]

Ah, my favourite classical guitarist is.............er...........well..........its Manuel Cubedo, followed by Oh Seung Kook. Both these guys are probably little known but everything they play, you can feel them seeking out the music. Not technically perfect either of them. Cubedo especially when playing the old potboilers like Rodrigo is way ahead of the usual suspects, Bream and Williams. Maybe because he is Spanish and the music is in him rather than just being interpreted. Especially moving is his version of Bacarisse's Concertina in A minor which has a famous melody as the second movement. A YouTube link ties it in with Spanish Civil War pics which makes it very moving. Of the big two I prefer Bream but Williams seems to be loosening up as he gets older and I have enjoyed a few of his later performaces. Can't find that link to Cubedo annoyingly but the audio of the whole piece is below is below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmgsNwYphoE

[WOStantonCS100]

Ah, my favourite classical guitarist is.............er...........well..........its Manuel Cubedo, followed by Oh Seung Kook. Both these guys are probably little known but everything they play, you can feel them seeking out the music. Not technically perfect either of them. Cubedo especially when playing the old potboilers like Rodrigo is way ahead of the usual suspects, Bream and Williams. Maybe because he is Spanish and the music is in him rather than just being interpreted. Especially moving is his version of Bacarisse's Concertina in A minor which has a famous melody as the second movement. A YouTube link ties it in with Spanish Civil War pics which makes it very moving. Of the big two I prefer Bream but Williams seems to be loosening up as he gets older and I have enjoyed a few of his later performaces. Can't find that link to Cubedo annoyingly but the audio of the whole piece is below is below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmgsNwYphoE

...listening now... released on vinyl, eh :)

[John]

Here one of my favourite classical guitar players
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[WOStantonCS100]

... One of my favourite examples is in classical guitar. A piece called Passapied by Bacarisse played by Narcisso Yepes and David Mozqueda. Yepes is very 'correct', dead in time, technically terrific and doesn't seem to have found a single musical part of it. Its not 'easy' music as it is clearly a very technical piece, so it takes a good musician to find it...

I usually like Yepes (I have an LP where he tackles Sor); but, I agree, his rendition of this piece sounds clinical, especially compared to Mozqueda. Perhaps Yepes was considering the venue and the audience???

[WOStantonCS100]

Here one of my favourite classical guitar players
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I'd be a happy man if I had her right hand.

[Gordon Steadman]

...listening now... released on vinyl, eh :)

A long time ago.:( I wore my copy out and despaired at replacing it. Then did a search on eBay and got a mint copy that had never been played, its on the Contour label No 2870 365. That was the same week as I found a CD release on CD Universe, a small label had obviously bought the rights to some old recordings and produced them in the States. KUBANEY Publishing CDK-196. Published 1989. Its just labelled Concierto de Aranquez but there are three pieces on it. All the labelling is in Spanish so it might be a Brazil release?

The original recording was a little bit thin on the orchestral parts and the violins screetch a bit but the music makes up for it I reckon.

[Gordon Steadman]

Here one of my favourite classical guitar players
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I have a video of her playing the Paganini Grand Sonata. My problem with it is that its such a different version from my favourite (Zelenca/Messiereur on Supraphon) that I never really got into it as I didn't really like some of her phrasing. I haven't heard any of her other work. I'll check some out.

[Gordon Steadman]

Here one of my favourite classical guitar players
rHEccPivH9U

You'll like this then:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E0oD9F2TVQ

[Gordon Steadman]

Interesting. I have downloaded a dozen pieces by Ana Vidovic from YouTube. In general, she is, of course, a brilliant guitarist. I do wonder though how much our opinions are swayed by, firstly the instrument and secondly by the recording. Most of the pieces I was underwhelmed by as she seemed to be missing some of the major balances between the accompaniment and the melody. Then again, on one piece, she was using a different guitar which had a balance that I would put nearer to neutral and suddenly, I could hear that she was, in fact, achieving a very good balance indeed and I could engage with her performance.

I guess this is a danger with live performance when both sound reinforcement and recording is going on. I haven't heard any of her studio recordings, so can't judge just how good she is.

Without trying to be too un-necessary, there are other bits beside her right hand that seem worthy of admiration :eyebrows:

[John]

For a lot of guitar players I know tone is essential and they will generally spend a lot of money to get that right. I quite Nicola Hall her tone is almost Django like on her first album its not for anyone like me she has a passion for the works for Sarasate