View Full Version : Are capacitor 'upgrades' really better?
walpurgis
11-08-2013, 18:23
There's an awful lot of talk about capacitor upgrades.
The moment somebody mentions an older piece of equipment, the 'experts' will chime in with comments like "of course you'll have to change all the caps for better ones". Is this necessarily true? I change capacitors that I suspect are past it or are definitely knackered, but if a capacitor measures well, I tend to leave be.
It's no good someone saying "I changed mine and it was a huge improvement". Well, maybe it was, but as you obviously can't do an A/B comparison, this is very subjective. Also, there must be cases where a so called upgrade has been detrimental.
I'm sure capacitors vary in quality and capability, but if a cap meets the required spec for its designed purpose, what can be gained by using 'audiophile' components and is this measurable? Where does the superiority lie?
Well I upgraded the capacitors on my crossover and although they had the same values I could definatly hear a lot more detail and still consider it a worthwhile upgrade
istari_knight
11-08-2013, 19:53
If the original electrolytic measures within tolerance then replacing it with a modern "audiophile" approved part like black gates & elna silmics is a waste of time but it will probably make you feel better. Replacing it with a superior [film] part will always give reasonable improvements IME.
John R Leddy
11-08-2013, 20:58
.
I once had a self-extinguishing cap let go in a DAC. Strangest thing I have ever seen. Just like those trick things you put in the end of a smoker's cigarette, except bellowing out of my stereo. Scary!
A friendly wholesaler was kind enough to send me free of charge a pair of their poshest audio caps to the same values under the guise of samples.
How would I go about allocating a sound to those particular components?
I have a suspicion others are suggesting their perception of a music track is constant every time they listen to it. I guess it would have to be in order to able to allocate a sound to a new part.
However, it is my understanding human beings are incapable of replicating the same perception every time they hear or listen to the same sound.
If it is true we cannot control the brain's allocation of new versus remembered sound, what do we think we are saying when we claim there is, or is not, a difference in the sound we are hearing?
If the same track is perceived differently from the last time we heard it, how do we know which differences in sound to subtract from the overall change in sound in order to allocate the new component its value in the change?
When and where did we adopt this idea of absolute and universally applicable constant aural perception? Who is likely to gain from our adoption of this concept?
I know my other senses are subject to continual change without cessation. Nerve damage may be a means of stopping this ongoing bodily process.
Under these conditions it should come as little surprise a person may claim there is, or is not, a difference in sound after fitting a new component.
Salesmen are well aware a customer may hear a substantial change in sound for a minor component change within their system, and if no change is perceived, or a detrimental change is experienced, the customer has only to be convinced to hold on to the product for a while longer until an inevitable improvement is experienced.
It is with great interest I notice the decision was taken to adopt descriptions from the motor industry: bedding-in, and running-in. Fascinating. Who would have thought a hi-fi salesman would wish to be compared to someone in the motor trade, but there we have it.
So, while I readily accept we can perceive changes, or not, under very similar circumstances, and personally choose not to waste my time worrying about certain aspects of audiophilia, questions still remain: How do I allocate an absolute, universally applicable, sound to an object? Why would I want to?
John.
Given the right capacitor for a given application then yes changing them can make a difference to the sound. Ask on any Audio DIY forum.
The moment somebody mentions an older piece of equipment,
(emphasis mine)
The crux here is 'older'. How old? It's a given that tube-era electrolytic capacitors will have dried out, and also a reasonable assumption that the same has happened to '70s gear as well. Weather or not the same holds true for more recent kit should be taken on a case-by-case basis.
But aluminum (aluminium?) capacitors dry out with age. So if it's old, there is a reasonable chance that the caps are out of spec.
It's seemingly fashionable for people to talk about various capacitors and occasionally amusing to read descriptions of how they "should" sound without consideration of the circuit/design or what they are replacing quite often. This is often no more than a reaction to what others might have said about "x" brand where generalisations are often assumed. I find some of these comments to be a little naive and non-nonsensical, although there are certainly instances where a particular type and rating of cap will bring improvements depending on the circuit usage. As mentioned in posts above, if older electrolytics are in a circuit, then after "x" years it's probable that they may have dried out and would need replacing. Replacing with new budget electrolytics or suitable alternatives is likely to give improvements simply due to bringing the capacitance values back into line with what the designer intended for the circuit and not because the cap uses unobtanium-in-oil construction. Some people though just have to have that fashionable cap to remove any nagging doubts about using "inferior" brands, and that is their choice.
Having said that, and largely depending on where the caps are to be used, changing the rating and type of capacitor can yield improvements. I've found that when refurbishing crossovers, the use of decent quality (tight tolerance) polyprops (not outrageously expensive) of a slightly higher rating than the originals has often yielded better results than like for like replacements. Much of this is to do with improving the tolerance for the capacitance values in this particular signal path application. The best way to learn if you'd be wasting your money (or not) is to speak (if possible) with the designer/manufacturer. I know that for the EAR amp that I currently use, EAR have advised that it is a complete waste of time and money replacing any of the power supply or coupling caps with anything "smarter" than the original budget items. I know of someone with the same amp who spent £100's on capacitor "upgrades" for his 869 and afterwards admitted that EAR were right and it didn't make a blind bit of difference. I know (because I have heard the results) that similar cap replacements on some Jolida amps will yield improvements. I rather suspect that this though is more to do with tolerance and rating than which brand was selected although some do yield different results for whatever reason.
Also worth bearing in mind is if substituting larger rated caps (say 600V in place of 250v in a crossover for example) it can take longer to bed in and stabilise initially. In certain applications it may be worth upping the rating if you can squeeze them into the space provided. Suck it and see.
Beobloke
12-08-2013, 08:35
There's an awful lot of talk about capacitor upgrades.
The moment somebody mentions an older piece of equipment, the 'experts' will chime in with comments like "of course you'll have to change all the caps for better ones". Is this necessarily true? I change capacitors that I suspect are past it or are definitely knackered, but if a capacitor measures well, I tend to leave be.
It's no good someone saying "I changed mine and it was a huge improvement". Well, maybe it was, but as you obviously can't do an A/B comparison, this is very subjective. Also, there must be cases where a so called upgrade has been detrimental.
I'm sure capacitors vary in quality and capability, but if a cap meets the required spec for its designed purpose, what can be gained by using 'audiophile' components and is this measurable? Where does the superiority lie?
As with so many things in audio, changing your capacitors will often make a change to the sound - whether it's an improvement is up to the listener's ears!
In my experience, it depends on where the capacitors are and what they do. For example, every time I find myself fettling a pair of 1970s Leak or Goodmans speakers, replacing some of the crossover capacitors is almost a given, as the ones they used when new were no better than adequate - they had poor tolerance when new and do not age well. Even then, though, the ones that make the biggest differences are the ones in the midrange and tweeter circuits that are directly in the signal path - the bigger fellas across the bass driver tend to have much less of an effect on the sound.
On the other hand, though, when you open up an old piece of electronics and find capacitors that have discoloured, are mis-shapen or (as I had recently) leave a puddle of electrolyte on the table where you park the item there for a few days, then replacement is a very wise move! However, change for change sake seems a little pontless to me.
Finally, it's worth considering the actual provenance of the original items in question. If the equipment in which they are fitted was originally a budget item, then components were likely to have been specified that would do the job required and not cost too much. A high-end item, however, is likely to have had much more care taken in this respect. As a friend pointed out once, "Why would I want to change high quality 1980s Japanese capacitors for cheap modern Chinese ones?". He has a point...
As with so many things in audio, changing your capacitors will often make a change to the sound - whether it's an improvement is up to the listener's ears!
In my experience, it depends on where the capacitors are and what they do. For example, every time I find myself fettling a pair of 1970s Leak or Goodmans speakers, replacing some of the crossover capacitors is almost a given, as the ones they used when new were no better than adequate - they had poor tolerance when new and do not age well. Even then, though, the ones that make the biggest differences are the ones in the midrange and tweeter circuits that are directly in the signal path - the bigger fellas across the bass driver tend to have much less of an effect on the sound.
On the other hand, though, when you open up an old piece of electronics and find capacitors that have discoloured, are mis-shapen or (as I had recently) leave a puddle of electrolyte on the table where you park the item there for a few days, then replacement is a very wise move! However, change for change sake seems a little pontless to me.
Finally, it's worth considering the actual provenance of the original items in question. If the equipment in which they are fitted was originally a budget item, then components were likely to have been specified that would do the job required and not cost too much. A high-end item, however, is likely to have had much more care taken in this respect. As a friend pointed out once, "Why would I want to change high quality 1980s Japanese capacitors for cheap modern Chinese ones?". He has a point...
...a very good point Adam :thumbsup:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
One of the more popular cap sites.
Caps can make a big difference - literally capable of wrecking an amplifier, for instance, should good ones get swapped out for poor ones. I know I've witnessed it happen to one of mine.
What's the best type? The one you like the sound of best. How will you ever find that out, though? Unless you like DIY. you're probably best off reading the above link, and/or the DIY sites, and just taking a gamble based on said research.
I read recently that in SOME circuits, probably low level ones, may not like fancy boutique caps with long legs being fitted, as inductance can rise (think I have this right).
As for replacing old with new - if the cap looks ok and not bulging, I'd be inclined to think very carefully before getting out the soldering iron in all honesty. Electrolytics used well within tolerance and not subject to loads of heat can last decades quite safely and within spec. Having said that (and thinking of the 'BEO' in Beobloke's monika), I remember seeing well used Beomaster receivers with almost all the circuit board electrolytics bulging after twenty or so years. Just one of the annoying little things about some old 1970's B&O gear, some of which was very well designed internally and sounded good when new.
Interesting thread, might have some input here.
My Young Dac.
I recently upgraded the power supply by fitting a better regulator board (lower ESR caps) and also swapped out the 25v decoupling capacitor at the DC input.
The new Panasonic FM cap on the input has a SIGNIFICANTLY lower ESR rating (I mean a factor of 10) than the cheapie CapXCon cap that was in before.
Significant improvments on both counts, particularly on the input cap on the Dac.
Its as though the cap on the DC input was strangling the sound somewhat and a lot of the Young "magic" was being held back.
Its obviously better now, much more of the good stuff that was there before.
Looking ahead a bit, I'll be swapping out the caps in the analogue output section of the dac too.
Leaving the digital circuit WELL alone!
With various Beresford's I've owned and upgraded, cap upgrades can really inprove the sound quality for not a lot of money.
Interesting thread, might have some input here.
.......cap upgrades can really inprove the sound quality for not a lot of money.
Makes you wonder why they don't do it at manufacture, since these caps aren't silly money either, especially when bought by the zillion!
Makes you wonder why they don't do it at manufacture, since these caps aren't silly money either, especially when bought by the zillion!
Absolutley!
(puts cynical hat one)
Guess manufacturer's have to justify the next product up somehow? :)
things have to be built to a price point, sure, but if its a matter of throwing an extra 50p on 6 better quality caps, makes you wonder....
Ali Tait
14-08-2013, 19:41
Aye, a lot of manufacturers are pretty good at that IMHO..
StanleyB
14-08-2013, 19:50
It would be nice to think that you could get 6 caps for 50p from the manufacturers. Far from it. They want you to buy anything between 1K to 5K before you get a delivery. Otherwise you have to buy the caps far more expensive from a dealer or distributor if you need a far smaller quantity.
It would be nice to think that you could get 6 caps for 50p from the manufacturers. Far from it. They want you to buy anything between 1K to 5K before you get a delivery. Otherwise you have to buy the caps far more expensive from a dealer or distributor if you need a far smaller quantity.
No doubt Stan.
Just saying from a punters point of view.
From a manufacturer's I hear what your saying about small quantities costing more...stings a bit and it'd something you dont always factor in. :scratch:
Just be careful where you put low and especially ultra low ESR caps in a circuit, some circuits use the cap ESR to critically damp the circuit so it does not oscillate, without being able to check with a 'scope you are taking a risk in replacing the OEM cap.
sq225917
15-08-2013, 00:10
The cap Gaz refers to is direct;y on the other side of the Dc input socket and is there solely to smooth what comes in from the wall wart a little before it hits the 30v switching reg. No need for high ESR to damp that reg input according to the spec sheet.
Just be careful where you put low and especially ultra low ESR caps in a circuit, some circuits use the cap ESR to critically damp the circuit so it does not oscillate, without being able to check with a 'scope you are taking a risk in replacing the OEM cap.
Yup,
hence I'm leaving the caps on the digital side of things WELL alone!
You reckon though Neal, I might be better leaving the analogue output section caps alone as well? (genuine question)
I've emailed the M2tech distributor for info on the whereaouts of the analogue caps on the board. Would have left well alone given the improvements I've already got, but a guy on WigWam has swapped out the caps on his Young for "dont want to say night and day but.." improvments on his Dac.
Seems a go-er, once I know the topology of the dac board.
@SQ
Wall wart? Pfft! :)
Just an avid tinkler, not that I'm unhappy with how things are.
Heres me listening to music on my system ...I'm like, Whoaa! :)
Gary, if they are in the signal path then its probably worth a shot, done it many time myself. What are they, 'lytics? My early post was a general one, wouldn't want anybody thinking they can arbitrarily swap out any old cap and expect all to be well.
Your right Neal and yup, worth pointing out.
it's 'lytics that's in the Dac, looking into more info on which ones are in the signal path.
Ta.
sq225917
15-08-2013, 09:49
There are no lytics in the signal path on the Young. The analogue stage is all of an inch long and runs from the output of the dac chip to the op-amps and straight out the back panel. There's nothing to be improved in that region short of completely rebuilding the I/V and output stages.
The chip uses 5v and 3.3v feeds and if I recall these are both fed by switching regs. There might be some margin to be had in feeding these with something from Mr Hynnes. But swapping additional parts will deliver nothing, the SMT lytics used for PSU decoupling are as good as it gets and you can't improve upon the SMT Wimas used everywhere else.
With regard to speaker capacitors -when I rebuilt my NS-1000S' I replaced all the capacitors in the crossovers with closer tolerance polypropylene (mostly ClarityCap ESA). they didn't sound any worse for this but it didn't make much of an improvement either. I did think that subsequently changing the in-line capacitor to the tweeter to a Mundorf Supreme made a difference, but not huge. I also measured the capacitors that came out of the old crossovers and despite their age they were still within specification - they just weren't very closely matched. Changing the caps to closer matched polypropylenes did improve stereo solidity and imaging though.
I've still got the original crossovers so I should be able to rig them up to do an A/B comparison (the crossovers are now external so easier to do) - may give that a go.
Ali Tait
15-08-2013, 11:49
You could try the MR range, or something like SCR Teflon, though they are not cheap!
I've found changing coupling caps in valve amps to make a real difference, best of those I've tried are the SCR's and the Audio Note Coppers. I find they take an age to run in though, especially the teflons. Nick uses the MR's in a lot of stuff and likes them, I've just put some in my Pre 3, sound is still all over the place while they burn in.
sq225917
15-08-2013, 12:54
I used to be a capanista, but not any more. I found when you actually match the caps for capacitance and ESR there's no difference, not unless they have odd inductance. There's plenty of times upgrading a cap for one of the same nominal value actually means replacing with one that has considerably lower ESR, in a crossover the effect of this is obvious if you simulate the effect on FR that the change in ESR has.
Mostly, we are never swapping like for like, most people just look at the number written on the side of the cap they never bother to measure the ESR and inductance.
There are no lytics in the signal path on the Young. The analogue stage is all of an inch long and runs from the output of the dac chip to the op-amps and straight out the back panel. There's nothing to be improved in that region short of completely rebuilding the I/V and output stages.
The chip uses 5v and 3.3v feeds and if I recall these are both fed by switching regs. There might be some margin to be had in feeding these with something from Mr Hynnes. But swapping additional parts will deliver nothing, the SMT lytics used for PSU decoupling are as good as it gets and you can't improve upon the SMT Wimas used everywhere else.
Oh, good info Simon...I opened up the Young and thought I'd saw some 'lytic caps.
Wasn't exactly sure where the analogue stage was on the board, asked the question but had assumed it was one of the two groups either side.
A guy over on Wigwam has swapped a lot of em out for OsCons and blackgates, says a big improvement?
Was just going by his post and this photo here:
http://imageshack.com/a/img708/9884/bxjo.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/jobxjoj/)
You reckon then get the regs swapped out at a later stage by Paul and the jobs a good'un?
Thanks.
Ali Tait
15-08-2013, 13:38
Interesting point Simon, never tried that, but don't have a meter that will measure those.
Ali Tait
15-08-2013, 13:55
Oh, good info Simon opened up the Young and thought I'd saw some 'lytic caps.
Wasn't exactly sure where the analogue stage was on the board, asked the question but had assumed it was one of the two groups either side.
A guy over on Wigwam has swapped a lot of em out for OsCons and blackgates, says a big improvement?
Was just going by his post and this photo here:
http://imageshack.com/a/img708/9884/bxjo.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/jobxjoj/)
You reckon then get the regs swapped out at a later stage by Paul and the jobs a good'un?
Thanks.
Well the Os-Cons are 'lytics.
Thats the dac thats been modded Ali.
The stock one looks like this...
http://imageshack.com/scaled/large/23/7i9t.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/0n7i9tj/)
Ali Tait
15-08-2013, 15:21
Aye, and the caps that have been swapped in are 'lytics by the look.
Gary, given what Simon posted previously I wouldn't bother...
if theres no caps in the signal path....think your right Neal.
Dont want to go near the digital side, no siree.
You could try the MR range, or something like SCR Teflon, though they are not cheap!
To change them to MR would cost £310 (£247 for the 400V versions) - the SCR ones seem to be a tiny range and none of them anywhere near what I would need.
Ali Tait
16-08-2013, 20:40
Yep, as I said, not cheap, unfortunately. As ever, depends how far you want to go..
Well the tweeter cap is already a Mundorf Supreme and both elements of the mid crossover also have approx 10% value of Mundorf Supreme in them. Changing the rest of the caps to ClarityCap MR just isn't worth it in my opinion.
Ali Tait
16-08-2013, 21:34
Aye, never tried them in a crossover, recently put some in my valve pre, from what I'm hearing so far they are quite a bit better than the ESA's, but as ever, it's all in the application. As you say, it can get silly money very quickly.
Smaller value ones aren't that expensive - but bigger ones are crazy. To do the whole of the crossovers in Mundorf Supreme would have cost more for the capacitors than the actual speakers!
How would you characterise the difference between the ESAs and the MRs?
Ali Tait
16-08-2013, 22:06
Can't really say yet, they are still running in, but what I'm hearing so far is very good sometimes, but they are frustratingly all over the place in the last couple of days, sometimes very good indeed, then no bass for a bit, then no treble. I'll let you know when they settle.
But at the best I've heard so far, they have an ease of reproduction, and a great sense of air and space, you can hear an instrument decay into silence for longer, if that makes sense.
That's not unlike what I heard when I changed the tweeter cap to the Mundorf Supreme.
Of course, if you really want to spend big on crossovers, this is the way to go:
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Completed-Duelund-crossover-1.jpg
The capacitors on their own are £5000.00 - just for that one crossover (that's not a random guess either)!!!!
Ali Tait
17-08-2013, 07:12
There's a bit pricey, and then there's totally ridiculous!
CapXCon - just say no. Nasty, nasty Chinese caps notorious for going off very quickly in Thomson made Sky HD boxes. I had to replace every single one in the PSU of mine some years ago.
@Martin,
I've noticed right away the Panasonic FM cap made the dac sound a LOT better.
On, earlier threads on 'Wam and pinkfish about Simons cap change idea, some electronics bods couldn't get over the fact that they used a CapXon in a dac that cost the thick end of a grand.
@Ali
You happier with the Valve pre now mate?
It sounded very good before, but I know at Owsten you said you felt it needed something.
Oops - it's CapXon, I just checked. Anyway, avoid like the plague.
walpurgis
17-08-2013, 08:58
Of course, if you really want to spend big on crossovers, this is the way to go:
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Completed-Duelund-crossover-1.jpg
The capacitors on their own are £5000.00 - just for that one crossover (that's not a random guess either)!!!!
Looks a bargain, but I'll have to order a pair of course. :)
It's a DIY project for a pair of Tannoys Westminster Royals - it's from a blog called Jeff's Place that I stumbled upon. One of the capacitor values had to be 'invented' for the project by Duelund!
I based my price on the cost of the copper capacitors - but there is a good chance they are the silver ones which are significantly more (yes more) expensive!
Ali Tait
17-08-2013, 09:15
@Martin,
I've noticed right away the Panasonic FM cap made the dac sound a LOT better.
On, earlier threads on 'Wam and pinkfish about Simons cap change idea, some electronics bods couldn't get over the fact that they used a CapXon in a dac that cost the thick end of a grand.
@Ali
You happier with the Valve pre now mate?
It sounded very good before, but I know at Owsten you said you felt it needed something.
Aye a bit, I've replaced all the components in the pre. Sound is a bit all over the place at the moment, hopefully there will be an improvement once it settles down. When it's sounding good it is better though. I've also got all new components for the power supply, might do that tomorrow if I have time, at bloody work today.
There was more than one at Owston who mentioned my system sounded a bit edgy, which was solved by swapping in Nick's lovely pre. It doesn't sound like that at home though, so maybe it's just the fact that things are played much louder there cos it's a big room.
One thing I have forgotten is the shunt resistors on the vol pot, changing these can make a big difference IME, I'll maybe try some Charcrofts.
And then I'll probably do what I should have done in the first place- sell it and get something better!
Of course, if you really want to spend big on crossovers, this is the way to go:
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Completed-Duelund-crossover-1.jpg
The capacitors on their own are £5000.00 - just for that one crossover (that's not a random guess either)!!!!
I've just been through all my Munich 2011 photos as there was something similar to this in the Dueland room. I didn't take any photos of it dammit.
These may be very good caps, but when I was in there, I remember the sound as being pretty naff. Which serves as a strong lesson. Great caps won't sort out a bad system.
istari_knight
17-08-2013, 13:32
I'd love to try duelund crossovers on some Wharfedale Diamonds or similar for a laugh.
I've just been through all my Munich 2011 photos as there was something similar to this in the Dueland room. I didn't take any photos of it dammit.
These may be very good caps, but when I was in there, I remember the sound as being pretty naff. Which serves as a strong lesson. Great caps won't sort out a bad system.
We're they using Tannoy Westminster Royals?
I've just been through all my Munich 2011 photos as there was something similar to this in the Dueland room. I didn't take any photos of it dammit.
These may be very good caps, but when I was in there, I remember the sound as being pretty naff. Which serves as a strong lesson. Great caps won't sort out a bad system.
Spot on Justin. I think that some of the marketing behind caps (no names) is pretty cynical to say the least. Caps in a crossover costing 20% (in some cases) of the loudspeaker total? Nuts :mental:
Compared with the THD of the speaker itself (driver perfromance plus cabinet interaction) the effect of using £5K caps in the x-overs compared with some costing 10 times less has to be minimal at best. It's all diminishing returns at this level but I appreciate that some people must have certain boutique caps and if they can afford it, good luck to them.
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 14:16
.
I agree, the whole 'boutique' aspect of caps like the Duelund is a right gimmick and their price is just a fantasy number plucked from the air.
I've also read comparative reports that they aren't even that good - which wouldn't surprise me.
--------
Joe, but what are the boutique caps are you using?
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 14:28
Joe, but what are the boutique caps you are using?
Claritycap MR's
istari_knight
17-08-2013, 14:29
Speaking of "cold war caps" I really like the Soviet KBG range, they are huge but sound fantastic in crossovers.
http://rutubes.com/published/SC/html/scripts/watermark.php?type=normal&photoID=550
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 14:34
Yep, very simular to the ones I have.. mine are military green and the connections look like pull-pins.. lol
Claritycap MR's - Duelund caps are silly money. So much so that I'd not go there even if I had the budget. The MR's are about the limit for my budget and after some comparisons with a few other favored caps for the job I settled on MR's for sonics and not because they are a nice blue colour!
The only other boutique caps I use are a couple of Jensen's. Again, sonics and budget.
If I wanted to tell people my findings for a superb budget cap especially for the tannoys on the LF section for example I'd say Claritycap ESA's or Ansar supersounds.
For HF, ESA's.
I also use wire wound inductor coils from Falcon but then use Duelund cast resistors throughout, both pole opposites in the world of boutiqueness but my mix/choice of components were made over time and they work really well together.
Ah well, there you go, that's not so different to what I have used (a combo of ESAs and Mundorf Supreme).
For coils I chose to use Jantzen (who do a massive range) and I must say I've been impressed by them (I used a mixture of their non-ferrite and air cores) - the resistors I used are the MOX ones also by Jantzen (the UK distributor is very quick and easy to deal with).
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 15:44
Sounds good to me.
It's all diminishing returns at this level but I appreciate that some people must have certain boutique caps and if they can afford it, good luck to them.
Yup - totally. I just thought I'd put my money on the roulette wheel concerning the V-Caps that'll arrive with the Lampizator L4.
Clarity caps seem popular - I've got some in my Apogee x-overs (PX) with ESA bypass caps. That Jolida DAC of yours used them and sounded superb for the money. My new external x-overs with the Apogees under construction will be all ESA. I priced up V-Caps for the new x-overs and it is a lot of money, more than I think it can be worth.
Clarity caps seem good to me and I'm surprised the Humble Home Made website doesn't rate them more highly. He could be a bit deaf, though, you never know:)
We're they using Tannoy Westminster Royals?
No. Can't remember and TBH I think the reason is I didn't know what they were in the first place.
Yup, Claritycaps are reasonable value and pretty decent. I use them in my crossovers (and when refurbishing x-overs for others). Just make sure that you buy the tightest tolerance ones you can afford (MR range is good) otherwise if going the ESA route, it's worth testing a few (buying more than you need) to select the closest values. My experience is that values can vary a little. How much that matters depends on where they're being used (ie value critical or not).
You can get the ESAs matched to 1% tolerance and cheaper than hi-fi collective - from Falcon Acoustics I think - will have to check though.
Yes, just checked Falcon Acoustics.
Ah well, there you go, that's not so different to what I have used (a combo of ESAs and Mundorf Supreme).
For coils I chose to use Jantzen (who do a massive range) and I must say I've been impressed by them (I used a mixture of their non-ferrite and air cores) - the resistors I used are the MOX ones also by Jantzen (the UK distributor is very quick and easy to deal with).
I wouldn't really class the Claritycaps as particularly "Boutique" in the context I'd described; that was more aimed at Deulands and the like. I saw a picture recently of a mega-expensive Deuland resistor sold for crossovers. The outer ceramic casing had cracked and it revealed (drum roll please...) a 2B pencil lead inside :lol:
Ansars are good caps and good value and the Jantzen inductors are great value. Top tip if building your crossovers is to buy the cheaper Janzens (ie lower tolerance ones) rated for a higher value than you need and use an inductance meter to wind off some coils until you reach the exact value. Can work out a lot cheaper and more accurate depending on how many you need.
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 16:41
HFC are great.
Tell a lie, it was a 5H pencil lead!
http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/902184/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL
Yup, HFC are super quick (and very helpful).
The Jantzen coils are well made, but the main advantage is you can get them in almost any value and DCR. Although you can buy wacky expensive ones from them their standard air and ferrite cored ones are quite reasonably priced and already as good as you will find in even super expensive commercial speakers.
Tell a lie, it was a 5H pencil lead!
http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/902184/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL
Yeah, they just trim the length to give the required value. I wonder how they achieve the electrical connection to the lead out wires - friction fit of some sort I guess.
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 16:59
each to their own I suppose.
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 17:11
Yup, HFC are super quick (and very helpful).
The Jantzen coils are well made, but the main advantage is you can get them in almost any value and DCR. Although you can buy wacky expensive ones from them their standard air and ferrite cored ones are quite reasonably priced and already as good as you will find in even super expensive commercial speakers.
Just out of interest, where did you buy your Jantzens from?
I used these guys Joe if it's any help:
http://www.audio-components.co.uk/
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 17:24
Thanks Paul.
I found AuriCaps to be very good indeed in coupling applications.
For my rebuilt Gale 401 crossovers, I've used Supersounds and hope they will work well with Wilmslow's own chokes. We shall see.
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 17:34
.
I used these guys Joe if it's any help:
http://www.audio-components.co.uk/
Yep, that's who I used - have done a few time now - they are good to deal with, I would recommend them.
The Black Adder
17-08-2013, 17:54
thanks
sq225917
17-08-2013, 18:08
The pencil leads are just soldered to the lead out wire, they solder quite well...
Oh do they, I've never tried that - could make our own :).
Here's one of my new Gale 401 crossovers:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3815/8783148293_be6ce38a72_b.jpg
anthonyTD
17-08-2013, 18:46
Hi All,
Interesting subject, over the years i have seen many types of older type caps in various bits of equipment in for repairs etc, what i can say is; not all these caps are bad or need upgrading, two examples come to mind, the old Mullard mustard type, and the translucent Wima type, when testing in high voltage circuits these two types of caps always test very low for DC leakage [very important in valve amps as coupling etc] also, their values are always consistent with what is printed on them. Now there are of course some notoriously' and consistently bad caps in quite a few of the old favorites ie; leek and Quad power and pre-amps etc, one in particular is the Black HUNT types, the brown ones are better, but both are not to be trusted, and in my opinion should be changed without question, especially if they are being used as coupling between valve stages. Another note on Electrolytic s, i have found many older types to still be in tolerance when measured but sound dreadful in comparison to new caps of the same type and value, so, i think where this type of cap is concerned, its more often a case of if you can, replace them for new ones of equal or better, but as others have said, there is no need to go mad, unless of course you would like to put in the best quality you can afford.
Caps made from different foil types and different dialectics all have a sonic signature, however, if you design the circuit right,then' in my opinion, polypropylene caps for signal and bypassing Large electrolytic s are hard to beat as far accuracy and blocking characteristics are concerned.
If you want to make a badly designed circuit sound more well' listen-able, then, there are plenty of exotic types of components to choose from...
The best capacitor is no capacitor, unfortunately this is not always possible with many designs, so, if they have to be used, use the best types modern technology has to offer, bad capacitors were the weak link of many a good design, if the designers of the vintage equipment many hold dear' had the materials to make the modern component types we take for granted today, i have no doubt' they would have used them.
Anthony,TD...
Here's one of my new Gale 401 crossovers:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3815/8783148293_be6ce38a72_b.jpg
Cool - I'm surprised you didn't alter the alignment of the inductors though (relative to each other - is it because you thought they were sufficiently separated from each other?
-----
I've just now been doing some of the final CAD for casing up my own crossovers and its just as well that I'm not intending to replace components further - the capacitors are big enough but the air cored inductors (in particular) are blooming massive! If any part of if was any bigger it wouldn't fit in the blooming case! I certainly can't get the four inductors as far apart as you have so I'm definitely orientations them to cause least interaction.
I did use the four corners for maximum separation and considered that I could make them most resistant to vibration by hot-gluing them laying down. I also didn't fancy trying to hold them fast while standing on their side (and worried that the glue might ooze if I'm giving the speakers some welly).
I've just been thrashing my speakers for a couple of hours and none of the components (coils or resistors) got even vaguely warm - stone cold in fact.
I've decided to divide my crossover in to three completely discrete sections for the top, mid and bass sections. Each will be separately mounted to a mother board. Each section will have slots and holes in them so that the components can sit in the best orientation within them.
To be honest, it's a lot of arsing about considering one won't even be able to see them one the outer case is fitted!
I've just been thrashing my speakers for a couple of hours and none of the components (coils or resistors) got even vaguely warm - stone cold in fact.
Good to know, Mark. That's one less thing to worry about, although the Gales are notoriously power hungry and my Chord is easily up to the challenge, so the coils may get a little warm.
I'm not saying it's not possible but I had the fans spinning on my Nap135s and not the faintest hint of heat from the coils (oddly I did touch them and check straight after and just before I read your post.
------
Frank, very glad you enjoyed the refurb story, must admit I loved doing it and they sound quite epic :).
Ta - heat won't be a problem, then.
I suppose it depends on the resistance of the coils but it shouldn't be an issue. Mr Tibbs on pfm has done a Gale rebuild and it may be worth checking with him - having said that, I've read a load of his posts on it and he's never mentioned it as an issue.
The Grand Wazoo
18-08-2013, 23:23
Yep, that's who I used - have done a few time now - they are good to deal with, I would recommend them.
Gosh, we're all at it! I received some Jantzen inductors from those chaps just yesterday - I was very impressed with what I received for the outlay and also at the speed of delivery.
I bought my Mills MRA12 resistors from Hi-Fi Collective. Excellent service from them, too.
The Grand Wazoo
19-08-2013, 07:59
Which type did you get?
Nothing very special:
I can't find the full details right now, but something like - 1mm wire / 1.0 mH / 52mm diam. / Air Core ....8 quid(ish)
I'm tinkerin' with some little Genexxa Pro LX5 speakers that have been in and out of use here for the last 15 yeas or so. A new crossover in a box mounted on the cabinet rear, bi-amp terminals, bracing to the aluminium cabinets, new foam surrounds for the bass drivers and better damping on the rear of the front baffle.
Genexxa Pro LX5 speakers
That has the rather fab tweeter, doesn't it?
The Grand Wazoo
19-08-2013, 17:15
It does indeed. Along with a worse than ordinary woofer!
....oh and a singalong, cast aluminium cabinet. I've sorted out the cabinet with a rather fantastic bracing invention and that does a lot to tighten up the bass. Nearly there now, then I'll tell all.
Nearly there now, then I'll tell all.
Great - look forward to it.
I have found Jantzen Inductors much cheaper from http://ehighend.de/shop/main_bigware_29.php?cName=cross-over-parts-coils They ordered some custom wound ones for me at virtually no extra cost and delivery was within 14 days.
No connection other than being a happy customer.
Val
The Outcast
27-08-2013, 22:08
There's an awful lot of talk about capacitor upgrades.
The moment somebody mentions an older piece of equipment, the 'experts' will chime in with comments like "of course you'll have to change all the caps for better ones". Is this necessarily true? I change capacitors that I suspect are past it or are definitely knackered, but if a capacitor measures well, I tend to leave be.
It's no good someone saying "I changed mine and it was a huge improvement". Well, maybe it was, but as you obviously can't do an A/B comparison, this is very subjective. Also, there must be cases where a so called upgrade has been detrimental.
I'm sure capacitors vary in quality and capability, but if a cap meets the required spec for its designed purpose, what can be gained by using 'audiophile' components and is this measurable? Where does the superiority lie?
Great tuning device. especially with valve amps.
anthonyTD
28-08-2013, 11:55
Hi All,
Interesting subject, over the years i have seen many types of older type caps in various bits of equipment in for repairs etc, what i can say is; not all these caps are bad or need upgrading, two examples come to mind, the old Mullard mustard type, and the translucent Wima type, when testing in high voltage circuits both types always test very low for DC leakage [very important in valve amps as coupling etc] also, their values are always consistent with what is printed on them. Now there are of course some notoriously' and consistently bad caps in quite a few of the old favorites ie; leek and Quad power and pre-amps etc, one in particular is the Black HUNT types, the brown ones are better, but both are not to be trusted, and in my opinion should be changed without question, especially if they are being used as coupling between valve stages. Another note on Electrolytic s, i have found many older types to still be in tolerance when measured but sound dreadful in comparison to new caps of the same type and value, so, i think where this type of cap is concerned, its more often a case of if you can, replace them for new ones of equal or better, but as others have said, there is no need to go mad, unless of course you would like to put in the best quality you can afford.
Caps made from different foil types and different dialectics all have a sonic signature, however, if you design the circuit right,then' in my opinion, polypropylene caps for signal and bypassing Large electrolytic s are hard to beat as far accuracy and blocking characteristics are concerned.
If you want to experiment' or try making a badly designed circuit sound more well' listen-able, then, there are plenty of exotic types of components to choose from...
The best capacitor is no capacitor, unfortunately this is not always possible with many designs, so, if they have to be used, use the best types modern technology has to offer, bad capacitors were the weak link of many a good design, if the designers of the vintage equipment many hold dear' had the materials and the methods to make the modern component types we take for granted today, i have no doubt' they would have used them.
Anthony,TD...
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