Levelling Pink Triangle Anniversary and all things springy

[KKWW]

Hello folks,

Hope all is well. After many months of storage my systems is up and running again....horayyyyy!!!! Not the best way to set it up as the speakers fire across the room which is long and narrow and it's a bit of a springy floor, but it still make magical music to my ears :)

Anyway, my turntable is a Pink Triangle Anniversary owned since new. It may seem hard to believe, but I've never really been sure how to level it up from the plinth to the platter or at the least never seem to be quite satisfied I've done it right.

What I normally do is level the turntable plinth first and then level the platter with the Mana Acoustic turntable spirit level. The makers claimed that if the bubble is within the circle whilst the platter is spinning then the platter is 1 degree within being level (if that makes sense). This works fine and I can get the platter level this way.

However, PT recommend using the heaviest or an LP to level the platter, i.e., the weight of the LP correctly levels the platter during playing. But as the Mana Acoustic spirit level weights 70g and most LPs (which are roughly about 100g?) I've never been able to get the platter level enough because most LPs are slightly off centre and the centrifugal force seems to be enough to throw the spirit level in to a wobbly bubbly, i.e., it never centres however much adjustment I make.

How do other suspended turntable owners level their platters?

Thanks in advance

Kim

[Oldpinkman]

I always level by eye - never used a level. Never remember seeing Arthur with one. Most TT's, solid or sprung are not that level. The PT level is going to shift very slightly with different record weights anyway, so to be perfect you would forever be relevelling for every record. It will not be that critical. The key is to get the platter about level and get a free bounce, with the belt tracking at the centre of the platter hub. On an Anni, the flying leads mean the bounce is hard to get wrong if nothing is snagged. But the level is really about getting the belt tracking centrally, more than operating-theatre flat. The arm is on the same sub-chassis, and will have the same relative level as the platter / LP.

Chill and enjoy the music. Worth re-checking the speed with a strobe after all that time.

The other key set-up, which I confess I had forgotten until I was cataloguing the PT's innovations, is "needle talk". The PT armboard is secured by 4 allen bolts. Rather than jack them all up nice and tight, loosen them until they just about pinch, and then vary the "bite" on each corner, whilst listening to a record unamplified. One-eyed and shaky-handed, whilst its a while since I've had an Anni in my grubby paws, I doubt I could do this "flying" any more. And I wouldn't dare with my new gramaphone needle from Arizona. So listen, lift the stylus, tweak the allen bolts, listen again, etc. You are aiming to minimise the volume you hear from the record - unamplified "needle talk". As a first pitch, go tighter on the bolt nearest the centre of the record player, and looser at the opposite bolt.

The bearing will need a tiny drop of lube - spot on the top, about a 1cm line down the shaft from near the top. You probably want a new belt too. Phone Arthur at the Funk Firm, catch him on a good day, and he will help you out. Otherwise - plug and play.:)

What arm and cartridge are you using?

[Oldpinkman]

Oh, and I think on behalf of the thought-police I am supposed to ask you to post a quickie in the Welcome forum saying a bit about the kit you've got, what music you like, and post some photos. But if you've got a PT - nuff said :)

[KKWW]

Hello,

Thanks for the advice about the platter levelling. Nice to know that I've been kind of getting it right.

I originally posted my 'Hello' way back in January (KKWWs Hifi). I use a Bluenote (now called Balcknote) Bellaria with a Dynavector XX-2 Mk I

Was aware of the needle talk, so have never 'screwed down' the arm board, but 'just enough' (don't want to squish the aerolam chassis)

I notice you have an achromat... how do you find it. I've considered the 5mm version. Do you use it with or with out the clamp?

Have also heard good things about the PIP and have been tempted before to 'mate' it with the MF A1001.

Time to enjoy the music for now though.

Kim

[Oldpinkman]

Ah - you're welcome. And although you were too kind to point out the deliberate mistake (I did say it was a while since I had tinkered with an Anni) I realised and popped back before kajaking to the beach. Motor is on the sub-chassis - bloody hard to screw up the belt tracking with the levelling!:doh:

More later:)

[loo]

Hi, I also use an Anni owned from new and I first make sure the surface the table sits on is level (with a proper level not a bubble) then check the plinth is level
then with a heavy record on the platter and with the arm placed in the centre of the playing area although still raised I level by eye and use a 5 mm strip of card and run it round the underside of the platter to check the gap is constant then give it a final visual check while the record is playing.:)
nice turntable by the way ;) but I would say that
Paul
Ps tried both the 3mm and 5mm achromat on the Anni and would not recommend either

[KKWW]

Hello Paul,

Thanks for the advice. Nice to have an alternative method of setting up.

Always loved the Anni. Chosen over the usual LP12 and Orbe. In fact I'd never heard of PT until I heard it. I felt it had a deft touch, less heavy.

Kim

[loo]

Hello Paul,

Thanks for the advice. Nice to have an alternative method of setting up.

Always loved the Anni. Chosen over the usual LP12 and Orbe. In fact I'd never heard of PT until I heard it. I felt it had a deft touch, less heavy.

Kim

Me too , One of the finest suspended turntables ever still very hard to beat today.
what arm and cartridge do you use Although I would guess if you have owned it from new and have not changed it its got a SME fitted?

[walpurgis]

Just a little point.

I use a very hefty wall shelf of my own design and made sure when I fixed it in place that it was level in all directions. Having a properly level surface for your turntable is your fundamental starting point.


Setting up a turntable with an underslung sub-platter is not hard. Too many people imply there is some sort of mystique about this, but it just requires common sense.

Assuming the subchassis and armboard are not defective the arm will be in plane with the subchassis anyway. As has been said, load the platter with a record, slacken off the spring adjusters as far as they will go without falling out and then tighten until a nice gentle springiness is achieved keeping the an eye on the level.

Rather than splash out on expensive turntable bubble levels, pop into your local hardware store and buy three cheap bubble levels and space them evenly around the platter, that will tell you how level it is far more accurately than a small central bubble.

[KKWW]

When I first heard it it was fitted with a Roksan Tabriz and Corus Black. And that is what I bought and used for many years.

I then changed the arm to a Bluenote Bellaria. It's a beautiful unipivot arm. I was going to go the SME route but found it too heavy sounding. After a lot of research I took a risk with the Bellaria as it was being sold at a 'knock down' price. A bit concerned that with the springy nature of the Anni it would all go wayward . After some discussions with those that had used unipivots with suspended decks and the very favourable reviews I just plumbed for the arm, which also came with a flexible interconnect. I had to have a new armboard made and weight added as the arm is light at about 450g. Also the arm interconnection is via a 5-pin DIN plug. I did try reusing the original PT phono plug socket arrangement, but found the sound really quite dark and heavy. For some reason it sounded all 'wrong'. So I re-soldered all the connections using the 5-pin din and 'slung' the supplied interconnect using wire to secure it to the plinth ensuring it didn't hinder the platter bounce.

At this stage even with the Corus Black it was one heck of a turntable, still with the lightness of touch I enjoyed.

Then I went to a Dynavector XX Mk I. Again risked it after favourable reviews and discussions; and it's what I use today.

Sometimes I wished I had gone for the battery version, but have heard it can be bothersome. To understand what the battery PSU could have brought I have used small lead acid batteries (2 x 6V) before to power it and confess there is an apparent improvement to the sound in terms of clarity and sound definition. So I may go this route again, but wonder about the new K-Drive and what it would be like.

Anyone got views on the K-Drive and even the Vector Anni?

[KKWW]

Hello Mr Tact,

Hope all is well. Thanks for the advice.

Never thought about slackening off the adjusters before. Presume the platter just 'sinks' down to the plinth when the adjusters are slackened off? Is there a danger of 'over-tightening'?

Thanks

Kim

[walpurgis]

Is there a danger of 'over-tightening'?

Of course.

There's no way of describing quite what is 'right', but you start off as slack as you can and tighten slowly until you are level and have a soft and gentle rebound on the subchassis. Springs in the direction of the armboard generally end up somewhat more tightly adjusted due to the arm weight. As long as the subchassis assembly is level, don't worry if the armboard appears a bit low, this often happens and does not matter as long as you are level and have a nice compliant suspension.

[Oldpinkman]

Sorry - in France and have been locked out for 4 days with the DNS issue. Achromat makes a small difference on a PT - my guess would be a smaller one on an Anni. It's just "more pink triangle". A bit more detail, imaging etc. Makes a much bigger difference compared with the felt on the LSD and the rubber of the technics. Havent checked your arm, but you need to be able to deal with VTA on a pink, since you are adding a mat not replacing one, and watch fouling that bloody lid.

Geoff's points - the Pink Triangles were very different to the LP12, thorens, systemdeck etc. The suspension was suspended not floating. Assuming you have the right weight on the armboard to place the centre of mass at the centre of suspension, and anni suspension just hangs, and (as you know) is externally adjustable by the three screws. Roughly level is fine. As for surfaces - your deck has a proper suspension. To prove the point I have placed one on plywood on top of the speaker playing loud. Duff designs like the LP12 depend on the surface they are mounted on.

Other mods - watch this space. Arthur owes me a few and discussing wanting to pimp my PT, (fancying the DIY idea) he rightly pointed out I would bodge it, and has offered to help. Look elsewhere for "oh funk that complicates things". I plan to do the major upgrades in stages to assess. I think AK is looking at relaunching an updated Anni if it does what we expect but that may be the beer talking. His pricing on these upgrades reflects they are labour intensive and an Anni is pretty good stock. He loves this new power supply with a passion, but I struggle to imagine it making that much difference. My guess would be, in order of priority

New platter and suspension, if we can make it work (Huge)
Vector (important for classical more than rock)
power supply

But we start playing when I am back in September:cool:

[KKWW]

I've read Tim's web site and the interesting mods made. It doesn't seem it make much sense for me to do them, although it would be interesting to compare his before and after impressions. Would be interesting to know how much difference the carbon fibre makes; or would it make the most difference if the sub-chassis was make from carbon fibre?

I wonder if any-one has thought about the 'Never-Connected' from Trichord option?

[Clive197]

I wonder if any-one has thought about the 'Never-Connected' from Trichord option?

I use a Trichord Dino/Dino+, using the higher quality umbilical between the two. I tried the Never-Connected and found the difference to be too small to warrant the £450 expense. Perhaps if I hadn't bought the Dino+, it may have made more sense.

[KKWW]

Sorry I should have been clearer, I was thinking more along the lines of using the Never Connected as the electrical supply for my Anni PSU, i.e., remove transformer from PT PSU and take output from Never Connected into the remaining PT circuit board. It's what I did when I ran my PT PSU off lead acid batteries for a while. Trichord seem to make some great claims for 'battery like performance'.

I have the Delphini with the 'beefy' PSU and have wondered about the Never Connected, but like you at the price they're asking it's alot. I have an upgraded homemade umbilical cord of silver wire within teflon tubing and woven. Surprising difference it made for a few hours work.

[Oldpinkman]

It's years since I've had a really Anni in my grubby paws. And I have only seen Tim's power supplies working not listened on one. We have big plans for converting my PT to Anni, and then using a new motor, Tim's power supply, vector, and the new platter, and I will report back when (if) we do. The new platter is heavy, and requires the suspension to be re-inforced (new springs, and aluminium instead of acrylic levelling wedges). I fancy a carbon fibre top plate for pretty. Arthur was being enigmatic about why it affects the sound, but suggested I tap the top plate on my PT and listen to it (through the speakers). For non-Anni PT's it also improves the rigidity of the plinth, but that is unlikely to have an impact on an Anni I wouldn't have thought. It's a relatively inexpensive mod - and whichever top-plate you have needs new holes drilling if you go vector.

I will be on the case when I am back in September, along with chasing up my custom Integral, and getting the cartridge loading right on my new gramaphone needle from Arizona, and playing with the arms.

You are going to love Arthurs new tonearms ...:eyebrows:

[Rare Bird]

The 'Anniversary' is the only PT TT i have not owned. However the 'LPT'/GTI is still my fav..

[Oldpinkman]

The 'Anniversary' is the only PT TT i have not owned. However the 'LPT'/GTI is still my fav..

Oh boy shy boy - the Anni is in another league. The little pink thing (some other shy boys may not have known of which you spoke) was the cut-down economy version. No real suspension, much cheaper easier to manufacture bearing, but decent motor, platter etc. The anni was the reference. Motor costing 20 times the price of the others, sub-chassis reinforced with balsa, improved bracing to plinth, motor on sub-chassis - the ultimate PT to date.

Until - project Pimp Richards old PT gets going in September. Then - hold on to your hats. Especially if Arthur has cracked the arm tube material we speculated about before I set off to La belle France. And my needle from Arizona. It's gonna be hot...:eyebrows:

[Rare Bird]

O i know exactly what the 'Anny' is about, i never owned one because i could never afford one.. However i do not like decks that have moving suspensions may it be Hangers or floaters, i just never get on with em probably the reason i liked the LPT so much,sure was pretty anyway.. i just rather have a none bouncer mounted on a wall..

[julesd68]

Oh boy shy boy - the Anni is in another league. The little pink thing (some other shy boys may not have known of which you spoke) was the cut-down economy version.

Hi Richard, how does the PT Too fit in spec-wise? I presume it was an 'in-between' model ...

[Gordon Steadman]

O i know exactly what the 'Anny' is about, i never owned one because i could never afford one.. However i do not like decks that have moving suspensions may it be Hangers or floaters, i just never get on with em probably the reason i liked the LPT so much,sure was pretty anyway.. i just rather have a none bouncer mounted on a wall..

Quite agree about the solid deck thing. Mine has rubber feet and spikes between two layers. It sits on a metal rack on a suspended wooded floor and I've never had a bounce. I prefer the sound to all the springy decks I have heard including those Linn lumps, Ariston, AR, etc etc. Before that peripatetic Pink person jumps in, no I haven't heard any PTs, so obviously have yet to hear the best!!:ner:

[Oldpinkman]

Ignoring sawdust-ears and his jibes, and responding to my nice friend Julian, I am on dodgy metered internet and addled by Rose and Limoux wine,and away from reference sources. But rather than rudely ignore a nice man, it went something like this.

Anni was a super luxury version. LPT a not-really-bouncy cheap version. The rest were progressions of the original. There was PT and ruby-bearing PT. These were the basic concept, except Arthur probably forgot to get the steel on the original bearing properly case-hardened so the thrust plate wore, and a ruby (later machined saphire) thrust plate was fitted as a "deluxe" model. A 50p saphire enabled a £60 price hike and reduced the gross losses on a stupidly underpriced product. You have reminded me these very early versions had a gorgeous sexy black slider to select off,33, 45 which fell apart after 5 minutes and was replaced with a revolting thorens knob (later a triangle cut from black acrylic). Must see if Arthur could do me a one-off slider again as part of project pimp-PT

Then I came along complaining of hum, and after a few cups of tea on the floor of Arthurs mums kitchen (the factory) the problem was resolved by leaving the original control electronics in the deck and replacing the transformer with a woolworths external power pack. This I still have, and is perfectly serviceable, but didnt look good. So next came PT TOO. I may wrong it, and there may have been other minor cosmetic touches, but essentially the electronics were done properly in a separate supply.

Then came Martin Colloms, and slowing under load, and only a clunking, cogging AC motor fit to power a cement mixer (like Linn and Rega used) would give proper stable music reproduction, and with another £300 price hike for a motor costing £2, the PT Export went AC - but insisted on electronics to enable selection of 45 rpm without dismantling the turntable. Basically a Linn motored PT TOO.

Little pink thing (LPT) had spongy feet like the Techie fans love instead of springs, and a cheaper conventional bearing (not inverted) with a saphire ball in the base (essentially the bearing AK is using in the Funk Little Super Deck (LSD) today.

The Anni was a show case. Far less of the flaky finish PT were sadly known for, awesome precision Swiss DC motor (f*** Colloms and his AC hoover motor), balsa reinforced sub-chassis, motor mounted on sub-chassis, very light flying leads for the arm board to free the suspension, internal bracing of plinth, special armboard from aerolam. Gordon mate, you have no concept of what you speak. Forget boinging coloured LP12's and their forebears, it was like els57's on speed. I'll bring my pimped job out sometime and make you weep.

THere - doubtless booze, senility and lack of reference sources mean that is E&OE but its the gist. :cool:

[Nigel]

What happened to Pink Triangle's, Neal Jackson? Is he still in the business? I once had a CS Split Slab Rega Planar 3 mod. Made by Chris Smeeton, I think the guys name was. I'm sure he was affiliated to Pink because the Split Slab shared a lot of similarities with the Little Pink Thing.

[Oldpinkman]

I've not seen Neal since I was there as MD. He had no further involvement in AK projects (and therefore HiFi I am pretty sure) after the last Pink collapse. Funk was Arthur without Neal. If you knew him, he hasnt moved. His last contribution was to change the PT logo - something Arthur didn't notice until the other day. The logo on the Integral amp (11 or 13 produced depending on which version you accept) is not the single pink triangle, nor the triangle with the shadow and line, but a version based on a Nazi dagger.

For those not fully up to speed Pink Triangle is a symbol of the gay pride movement, having been the badge homosexuals were forced to wear by the Nazi's during their reign of terror in Europe, akin to the yellow star worn by Jews. In spite of some notable homosexuals among senior Nazi party members, they were persecuted along with Jews (and others). When Neal and Arthur decided to set up PT, Neal had just read a book on the subject, I think called "The Pink Triangle and the Yellow Star". It caused a little wry amusement at HiFi shows, that the free badges from our stand being worn around the show were sourced from gay pride. :eek:

[Nigel]

Cheers. No, I don't know Neal but always wondered what happened to him as he was so closely associated with Arthur.

[Audioman]

Richard great PT history. John Mitchell once told me he originally put 2 belts on the Gyro because Martin Colloms was complaining about wow with a single thin belt. He was anxious to get a recommendation in Hi-Fi Choice Turntables. Frankly people should have told MC to take a running jump as he appears to know sweet FA about how TTs work at least. Amazing how people can set themselves up as gurus under false pretences and off course people will believe every misinformed word if it's written in a magazine. I must say I couldn't see much wrong with the finish and build of the later PT decks. Though well known they unfortunately lacked distribution against a certain (in)famous brand. Any chance of persuading Arthur to bring back the Anniversary? It would be pricey today but judging by Ebay prices for the original there is a market out there.

[Rare Bird]

I remember the two belts.. I've been thinking about buying a 'Gyrodec' for the living room but i want a Mk.1 with the alloy platter, does anyone know what an armless one would sell for these days?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Here you go (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/J-A-Michell-GyroDec-Zeta-Tonearm-Mr-Brier-Cartridge-/380698635396?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item58a3682c84) - I'll chuck in a couple of tenners - you have the deck and I'll look after the arm. Then we'll sell the cartridge and spend the proceeds on a few pints!

[Oldpinkman]

Richard great PT history. John Mitchell once told me he originally put 2 belts on the Gyro because Martin Colloms was complaining about wow with a single thin belt. He was anxious to get a recommendation in Hi-Fi Choice Turntables. Frankly people should have told MC to take a running jump as he appears to know sweet FA about how TTs work at least. Amazing how people can set themselves up as gurus under false pretences and off course people will believe every misinformed word if it's written in a magazine. I must say I couldn't see much wrong with the finish and build of the later PT decks. Though well known they unfortunately lacked distribution against a certain (in)famous brand. Any chance of persuading Arthur to bring back the Anniversary? It would be pricey today but judging by Ebay prices for the original there is a market out there.

Ah - funny you should say that. AK had bowed to other market forces that people couldnt cope with bouncy TT's cos they had shaky hands, and had gone solid - of course they are much cheaper to build too. Bollocks. It's a long story, and I am still stapling my tongue down about aspects, cos I think DSJR is likely to guess what I am trying to hide, but when AK and I recently had a cartridge auditioning session together we both surprised each other. He was trying to test me on a concealed secret weapon. I had his new toys on a PT - which astonishingly he hadnt tried himself. The short version is, having already agreed to help me pimp my PT as a favour, he got intrigued with re-doing an Anni based final statement TT. It won't be cheap - but, depending on how my customisation goes, I think I have the old git relenting on bouncy turntables again.

On which subject, with all the TT recomendations here, acknowledging you don't see 4 every week on ebay like you do Technics SL1200's, you do see the occasional PT, and something like PT, or PT TOO or PT Export, plus RB300, Mission 774, Linn Ittok or a few others, is likely to knock spots off an SL1200. The only real thing to worry about is making sure the bearing is good, because getting a replacement made would be seriously expensive (QC tolerances are really tight compared with the LPT or LSD bearings). Everything else can be fixed at a reasonable (normal retail - not AOS cheapie) price. My PT is currently a totally stock early version (it happens I built it myself) and like I said, it surprised AK seriously when he heard it recently.

As for Colloms - I'm sure he was kind to his dear old Mum, and meant well, but he talked a lot of bollocks, and caused us endless grief. You have no idea of how the market was completely strangled by Linn Naim Rega (riding Linn's coat-tails with the same motor and felt mat). So we ended up putting an inferior AC motor into our "improved" Export TT. It was improved to the extent we did some proper electronics to give a 2 speed option, but for Anni, and all funk TT's it has been back to the vastly superior DC motors. You couldn't put a washing machine motor like the Linn one on a suspended sub-chassis :lol:

And I've realised I missed another enhancement:doh:, I think in PT TOO and on. The motor was repositioned to be in-line with the cartridge - the original (mine) has it pulling the platter from the top almost opposite side from the cartridge. Of course Vector...:cool:

[Oldpinkman]

Here you go (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/J-A-Michell-GyroDec-Zeta-Tonearm-Mr-Brier-Cartridge-/380698635396?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item58a3682c84) - I'll chuck in a couple of tenners - you have the deck and I'll look after the arm. Then we'll sell the cartridge and spend the proceeds on a few pints!

I just clicked the link with Mrs S looking over my shoulder and got a fit of derision. How much for the carpet?

[The Grand Wazoo]

I don't know, it's not my Gyro, Zeta, carpet or advert!
I just want another Zeta

[Clive197]

On which subject, with all the TT recomendations here, acknowledging you don't see 4 every week on ebay like you do Technics SL1200's, you do see the occasional PT, and something like PT, or PT TOO or PT Export, plus RB300, Mission 774, Linn Ittok or a few others, is likely to knock spots off an SL1200.:

I am more than a little surprised. How can you make negative comments on a product you have stated many times you have NEVER heard, fettled or otherwise. I will assume that you prefer a PT To a Linn correctly set-up but the difference is/was not huge. Being in the trade once, I had the advantage of hearing Linns, Roksans, Gyro's and Pink Triangle and I think they are all for different reasons great TT's. I live a mile from Roksans factory and have spent some hours in their dem room,so speak from a certain amount of experience.

The Technics sounds quite different from the TT's discussed and to my ears sounds nicer, especially now I have fettled mine. All TT's are a sum of parts, which can make huge differences, some arms work well, some don't and the same with cartridges. Get all three working well and the synergy can be mind blowing.

The other point you make as to how many Techies you see on e-bay. Question, how many SL1200/1210's have been made and sold?
How many PT's in any configuration have been made and sold in total?

I don't know the answer to that exactly, though I am informed that Technics built about 3 million units.

[Rare Bird]

All this turntable negativity is disgraceful :whistle: