How many dbs is too loud?

[richard l martin]

Hi, I live in a flat with concrete Flores and ceilings and I don't know what is a reasonable level to expect to play my music at. Does anyone know of any laws governing this? Any help or advice would be appreciated. Regards Rich.:scratch:

[anthonyTD]

Hi, I live in a flat with concrete Flores and ceilings and I don't know what is a reasonable level to expect to play my music at. Does anyone know of any laws governing this? Any help or advice would be appreciated. Regards Rich.:scratch:
Anything above 100db is too loud anywhere...:eek::)
A...

[istari_knight]

Do you have an SPL meter ? Even the "app" one's on smartphones can be useful... My average listening level is between 70dB-80dB.

[Oldpinkman]

I live currently in a semi-detached house so face the same problems. Forget decibel meters - talk to your neighbours. I never play audible music after 11, and usually drop the level after 9PM - to non-deaf persons loud telly level. If you reach the point of needing a meter - you have a dispute and you are likely to lose it (well - likely to get lots of ineffectual visits from environmental health - an old school friend was on the receiving end of gross inconsideration)

There are current building regulation requirements for noise insulation standards, and it is possible to add soundproofing - fairly straightforward for floors and ceilings. But there is no substitute for talking to your neighbours and agreeing sensible boundaries :)

Or move to France and buy a detached house - my plan :cool:

[richard l martin]

Do you have an SPL meter ? Even the "app" one's on smartphones can be useful... My average listening level is between 70dB-80dB.

Hi there. I have the db meter ap on my phone. I have yet to test and see what level my music is usually played at. Regards Rich.

[richard l martin]

Thanks for that advice, I will try and have a chat with the woman upstairs but she is such a miserable unapproachable wot name!!!

[walpurgis]

Thanks for that advice, I will try and have a chat with the woman upstairs but she is such a miserable unapproachable wot name!!!

I wouldn't do that. If you do she'll be listening out for any noise from then onwards!

[realysm42]

"Its easier to seek forgiveness than permission"

Also, those apps are meant to be pretty inaccurate vs 'proper' devices.

[istari_knight]

I tried the app "decibel" it was within 3dB of a proper meter I borrowed [using an iPhone 4s.]

[loo]

Thanks for that advice, I will try and have a chat with the woman upstairs but she is such a miserable unapproachable wot name!!!

Sounds just like the cantankerous cow that lives next door to me we fell out years ago so now I don't worry how loud I play it:rock:

[Rothchild]

There's no official SPL given (at least in the 1996 noise act: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/37/contents). Also you'd need to know what weighting the Environmental Health would use and how long a duration their metering would cover (you might be listening to some radical music that was a 20bpm kick drum that when it hit whacked over 110dB but that would mean that your RMS level over the period of a minute was actually fairly low - this is a classic live sound trick bands at festivals always talk a bit before their last number so the average level for the set / time period comes down and then the engineer can whack up the volume for the last song).

The point is that really you need to talk to your neighbours about what's a convenient compromise for all of you.

In other news, the ideal average listening volume is 83dB

[synsei]

:band: SORRY, I CAN'T HEAR YOU ABOVE ALL THIS NOISE!!! :gig: :D :cool:

[Cotlake]

Hi, I live in a flat with concrete Flores and ceilings and I don't know what is a reasonable level to expect to play my music at. Does anyone know of any laws governing this? Any help or advice would be appreciated. Regards Rich.:scratch:

Hello Richard,

Up until recently, I worked as an anti social behaviour case worker for Bristol City Council. The issue you have highlighted is typical of many complaints I had to deal with, albeit they really should have been handled by the Noise Pollution Team.

Concrete multi-occupancy buildings of a certain age are classically void of sound deadening and the noise you make in your flat will radiate depending on volume throughout the building, impacting on your neighbours.

As previously suggested, this is a neighbour tolerance issue. Suck it and see is my suggestion. If your neighbours start to complain, your options are to negotiate with them a listening time table, listen at lower levels or to go to significant expense to introduce sound deadening (which probably won't bring you a solution) within your flat. However, you have a right to make a reasonable amount of noise subject to the local circumstances you have which should take into account the construction of your building. By example, when you slam your front door, no doubt many of your neighbours will hear and possibly be disturbed by that. Equally, when they do the same, you are equally affected.

If your neighbours raise a noise complaint with the local authority, their noise pollution team will need to witness an example of unreasonable excessive noise before they can serve a noise abatement notice on you. Such noise usually constitutes a system wound up to maximum, windows wide open and the repetative playing of the same track. A noise abatement notice does not make you a criminal. It simply expects you to be quieter in future. If your neighbours were to continue to complain, they might then introduce monitoring equipment to analise the sound dB you create and if there is sufficient evidence of a breach of the Noise Pollution Act legislation, then they might summons you to court.

As said, in the first instance, check out the tolerance of your neighbours and unless they are unreasonably sensitive, work within that.

This will be a developing issue so come back to me here or by PM if you need further advise.

Regards,

Greg

[Firebottle]

What an excellent reply :clapclapclap:

Alan

[Arkless Electronics]

If ones neighbour is unreasonably intolerant, ie it was no louder than the tv would be when they complained, can one just get on with playing music and tell them "tough. it's not loud. live with it cos I aint going to turn it down" ?


Hello Richard,

Up until recently, I worked as an anti social behaviour case worker for Bristol City Council. The issue you have highlighted is typical of many complaints I had to deal with, albeit they really should have been handled by the Noise Pollution Team.

Concrete multi-occupancy buildings of a certain age are classically void of sound deadening and the noise you make in your flat will radiate depending on volume throughout the building, impacting on your neighbours.

As previously suggested, this is a neighbour tolerance issue. Suck it and see is my suggestion. If your neighbours start to complain, your options are to negotiate with them a listening time table, listen at lower levels or to go to significant expense to introduce sound deadening (which probably won't bring you a solution) within your flat. However, you have a right to make a reasonable amount of noise subject to the local circumstances you have which should take into account the construction of your building. By example, when you slam your front door, no doubt many of your neighbours will hear and possibly be disturbed by that. Equally, when they do the same, you are equally affected.

If your neighbours raise a noise complaint with the local authority, their noise pollution team will need to witness an example of unreasonable excessive noise before they can serve a noise abatement notice on you. Such noise usually constitutes a system wound up to maximum, windows wide open and the repetative playing of the same track. A noise abatement notice does not make you a criminal. It simply expects you to be quieter in future. If your neighbours were to continue to complain, they might then introduce monitoring equipment to analise the sound dB you create and if there is sufficient evidence of a breach of the Noise Pollution Act legislation, then they might summons you to court.

As said, in the first instance, check out the tolerance of your neighbours and unless they are unreasonably sensitive, work within that.

This will be a developing issue so come back to me here or by PM if you need further advise.

Regards,

Greg

[hal55]

My policy when I lived in flats was headphones after 9.00pm. Worked well.

Hal55

[Gordon Steadman]

If ones neighbour is unreasonably intolerant, ie it was no louder than the tv would be when they complained, can one just get on with playing music and tell them "tough. it's not loud. live with it cos I aint going to turn it down" ?

Sounds like a pretty caring approach:eyebrows:

Should it be 'Heartless Electronics'?

[Cotlake]

If ones neighbour is unreasonably intolerant, ie it was no louder than the tv would be when they complained, can one just get on with playing music and tell them "tough. it's not loud. live with it cos I aint going to turn it down" ?

You could take that approach and remain secure from any formal action being taken against you. Some people are irrationally hypersensitive to noise and may complain unreasonably. Some people who have this high sensitivity may suffer with mental health issues. However, if you do take such a belligerent approach, you are likely to become embroiled in a neighbour dispute which can escalate and become a chronic long term issue that will generate stress for everyone concerned. A mutually acceptable agreement with your neighbours on the playing of music and the volume used is by far the better solution. Finding somewhere else to live is another, but generally isn't a practical option.

[Puffin]

I lived in a semi for 25 years. I only ever used the system when the neighbours were out. I would not have wanted to hear their system at any level (because bass tones are heard whatever the level) and so I did not inflict mine on them. I just would not have been able to relax knowing that they would hear something. Towards the end of our time there I converted the integral garage (on the other side of the property) and soundproofed it (for my family's benefit).

[Reffc]

I lived in a semi some years back and solved the problem by knocking on the neighbours door and asking them to tell me when they could hear my stereo as I turned it up incrementally. We agreed that this was best done in the evening when background noise is lower so that their accepted threshold would be safely met during the day time. When the noise reached what they thought was acceptable, I went over to listen for myself and could barely hear it coming through the walls. I pointed this out and that it was unreasonable to expect no noise to come through and they agreed to a level that wouldn't upset their kid's sleep which was a perfectly reasonable suggestion. It also meant they could listen in peace to the telly without having music swamping everything. The threshold was marked next to the volume dial with a bit of tape with both sources (two colours of tape one for each source) so I knew to keep the dial below that level. It worked perfectly and I never received any complaints in 4 years using this system. Better to agree with your neighbours as disputes can readily escalate and make living next to one another very stressful. That or look towards headphones for evening listening.

[Trumpton_Rioter]

and this is where my headphone setup comes in handy

[Lodgesound]

I lived in a semi for 25 years. I only ever used the system when the neighbours were out. I would not have wanted to hear their system at any level (because bass tones are heard whatever the level) and so I did not inflict mine on them. I just would not have been able to relax knowing that they would hear something. Towards the end of our time there I converted the integral garage (on the other side of the property) and soundproofed it (for my family's benefit).


An excellent piece of advice there - seriously don't go round to any neighbours and actually announce you are going to be playing a HiFi system - as has been previously said it just makes folk paranoid and believe me they can and WILL MOST CERTAINLY complain at the earliest slightest opportunity.

Far better to excersise care and consideration from the off. Get used to listening at lower volumes - there should be no problems with this on high quality systems - the golden level of 83 dB's is significant as it's the level at which we humans talk in normal speech. A stereo system set at this level should be no more intrusive than normal speech.

The only other problem is bass. The most annoying of all sounds is repetitive thumping of any kind whatsoever so avoid any kind of dance music if you can. Beyond that again as has already been said headphones after 9pm are a must. Isolate speakers from the floor and walls as far as possible to prevent low frequency transmissions of these sounds.

The best option is a detached property but in the UK now you would have to have a single or joint income of around £80 000 to even begin to think about affording a detached house.

Sadly we live on a small island and the bulk of our housing simply cannot cater for noise isolation for full enjoyment of music at all hours.

[Trumpton_Rioter]

Sadly we live on a small island and the bulk of our housing simply cannot cater for noise isolation for full enjoyment of music at all hours.

I read that as you live on a small island and I was going to ask why you said "sadly" :doh:

i would love to live somewhere remote with nobody around for miles but "she who must be obeyed" and work dictate that is not possible at the moment :(

[richard l martin]

I wouldn't do that. If you do she'll be listening out for any noise from then onwards!

Yes, didn't think of that. Very good point. Thanks.

[richard l martin]

Some interesting points there. Thanks everyone. I should say that I have not had any complaints in the three years I have been in my flat and I checked on my db app and my listening level appears to peak at 62db but I would like to listen at a higher volume. Maybe ill just whack it up a bit and see what happens! :eyebrows: Suprised no one pointed out my bad spelling mistake. If that had been Audio Karma I would have been ridiculed for that!

[Reffc]

Some interesting points there. Thanks everyone. I should say that I have not had any complaints in the three years I have been in my flat and I checked on my db app and my listening level appears to peak at 62db but I would like to listen at a higher volume. Maybe ill just whack it up a bit and see what happens! :eyebrows: Suprised no one pointed out my bad spelling mistake. If that had been Audio Karma I would have been ridiculed for that!

62dB seems very low indeed, only slightly more than a "loud" background noise! Is it dBA or dBC scale you're using and where are you measuring from? To give you an idea of the guideline we used to use in industrial applications where no meter was available for spot checks, if you had to raise your voice slightly to be heard 1m away then the noise was around 85dB. I would have said that most flats could cope with that level without causing too much grief as its no more than a loud conversation. That of course doesn't account for transients (which you would have to account for).

[pjdowns]

I live in a Semi and generally listen at moderate levels. Occasionally I listen at loud levels but as it's rare my neighbours are pretty forgiving.

When I first moved out of home I used to live in a (poorly constructed) 2 bed mid-terrace and I once had a complaint from 2 doors down. It wasn't until I went around to there house I could clearly hear the system at 1/4 way round the volume knob, so god knows what our immediate neighbour thought.. Maybe she was deaf because she never complained but after that experience I did choose my volumes a lot more considerably and eventually moved to headphones as a primary listening method :)

[synsei]

My normal listening level is around 60db which is perfectly adequate for my small listening room, however when the missus goes out the volume control inexplicably rotates a little further around the dial ;)

[pjdowns]

My normal listening level is around 60db which is perfectly adequate for my small listening room, however when the missus goes out the volume control inexplicably rotates a little further around the dial ;)

I hear ya Dave :lol:

[Rothchild]

83dB is a difficult beast to track down and requires that your source was mixed against a particular reference, you can't just point an SPL meter at your speakers while they're playing music and say 'yes that's 83dB' (across what time period, average or peak, etc, etc etc?)

The reason I know about this reference level is because it's used as part of the 'K-Metering' system that I use to calibrate the volume in my studio (http://www.digido.com/how-to-make-better-recordings-part-2.html).

The problem for a Hi-Fi listener is that you need a decent meter on the output of your front-end to determine what level is coming out of it (not many records/cds today are mixed and mastered to the magic K20 (which in turn is a hangup from Cinema and provides both a volume and headroom standard)), where the mixing, mastering and playback chain are calibrated (as they are in film sound) then volume levels are guaranteed (there's no volume control on a cinema playback system, and there isn't (generally) on a film sound mix room - the amps are calibrated so that a -20dBFS pink noise signal equates to 0dBU on the meters on the desk and 83dBSPL in the room (this volume calibration is part of the Dolby experience, it's not as if they take delivery of a new film and run it through to check that it's audible/not going to deafen the audience it's made to a known standard.

However, you can calibrate your hifi system to K20 (or, more likely useful, K14 or K12) but you will need some way of getting your source equipment to play the test file (pink noise at -20dBFS RMS) and an spl meter (the one in your phone should do as long as you can set it to a slow C weighting). Pan the source hard left and set the the volume on your amp so it creates 83dB at the listening position, then repeat for the right channel. Mark the volume control, this is now K20 calibrated and records made with 20dB of headroom will sound at the 'correct' volume. You can also calibrate for the other standards, if you listen to lots of modern music (particularly rock / pop / dance etc) they K12 will probably be more useful. To do this you just adjust the calibration file (the pink noise) so it's -12dBFS RMS and again set the amp so it delivers 83dBSPL (C, slow). per channel at the listening position. If you calibrate your system to K12 and stuff sounds uncomfortably loud the chances are it's been 'over mastered' has had it's dynamic range severely limited in order to make it sound louder.

[richard l martin]

62dB seems very low indeed, only slightly more than a "loud" background noise! Is it dBA or dBC scale you're using and where are you measuring from? To give you an idea of the guideline we used to use in industrial applications where no meter was available for spot checks, if you had to raise your voice slightly to be heard 1m away then the noise was around 85dB. I would have said that most flats could cope with that level without causing too much grief as its no more than a loud conversation. That of course doesn't account for transients (which you would have to account for).
Hi. Its dba scale im using and I metered the sound from about 2 meters from my speakers.

[Magna Audio]

My system sounds glorious at 83dB (this is C weighting = measurable freq range rather an human audible and on fast response).
Above that sort of level I start feeling a bit guilty - is it too loud for the family in the rest of the house? This is in a Detached house and fairly well isolated music room. The door into it is a double glazed decent air gap patio door with double seals.
With a 5 way front loaded horn system with ideal freq response, good and flat +/- 5dB in room, from 20Hz (0dB) to 20KHz (sloping off to taste above 12KHz) - there is no way a measured 83dB normal human speech would generate the same level of noise disturbance.
Bass travels through concrete, wood and earth way better than speech.

When I was testing the tapped horn (subs) with down to 20Hz sweeps the wife could easily hear / feel this a good way down the garden:)
"Did the earth move for you Nancy" - shes not called Nancy BTW.

My conical horn system at Scalford shifted 110dB no problem on Saturday night - musicians earplugs at the ready. Bear in mid that the compression drivers are rated at 113dB/W. The bass 105 and 110dB/W and the tweeters 111dB/W.