View Full Version : Upgrade Fever Doctor Needed
I have had more time to critically listen to my system of the past months, and guess what happened?
I like it less than I thought. The piano has an abrasive edge, trumpets also grate – more apparent at medium volume, so it always came down. I was suffering from listening fatigue.
In the last months I started the upgrades (after reading much here and elsewhere). First with the DAC (Bushmaster), then PSP, interconnects and speaker cables from Mark. The DAC and PSP did make a BIG difference, the cables also made a difference but less obvious with the current system.
Though improved, I still can’t happily listen to piano (e.g Kieth Jarrett or George Winston), or instrumental .
Im So Sad. That was a difficult admission – I didn’t realize how much enjoyment I had lost compared to an earlier system. (A long time ago I had Genesis speakers with inverted dome oil filled tweeters – never had listening fatigue)
So what is left?
That leaves the NAD C340 amp and the B&W CM2 speakers as the main culprits. – I have read some reviews indicating both can be fatiguing (CM2s have metallic tweeters)
What can I replace them with that is the ‘least likely’ to produce listening fatigue?
I am prepared to upgrade both Amp and Speakers – and I would like something really musical, mostly to play music like Jarrett, Winston, or Michael Hedges (Aerial Boundaries) or Ottmar Liebert.
So Doctor, your help please, what are the most musical, engaging amps/speakers you could recommend? I want to get goose bumps listening to my music again! without listening fatigue!!
I have a budget of about 600 to 800 GBP total (but I don’t have to spend it all!!). Appreciate your suggestions!!
When I bought my speakers a few years ago I tried B&Ws and spendors. Non first listen I preferred the B&Ws and had them at home for a few weeks demo- during which time I found them more and more fatiguing to listen to esp for long sessions. They had a hardness to them. So I tried a pair of spendor s9e's - much less in your face though still (in my opinion) detailed but much easier to listen to. I still have them and can listen to them for hours - we play music and TV thru them so on wet weekends they can be in use for almost all the time. I really like them. Would recommend you try and hear spendors.
Have a bake off.
Get as much kit brought as you can.
It's the only way really.
purite audio
29-07-2013, 13:57
If the speakers are 'toed in' try them firing straight down the room, tweeters usually produce less output when they are off axis .
Also the usual room treatment at first reflection points, and behind your head if you sit close to a wall.
Keith.
If you like floorstanders then maybe a pair of Spendor or PMC speakers, if not and you prefer stand mounted speakers then you can't go wrong with a pair of Epos ES11 or ES14 (although you'll need a lot of amplifier to drive the ES14)
In terms of amps, Arcam are supposed to be easy on the ear or Exposure (try and get the ones designed by John Farlowe) as they are a lot better IMHO than the current available models.
P.
Spectral Morn
29-07-2013, 18:40
B&W speakers are to blame not the NAD.
Regards Neil
I tend to agree with Neil. B&W speakers do have a bit of a reputation!
I really appreciate your suggestions!!
It does seem the B&Ws are the key suspect ;(
So many recommendations for Splendors - i have never heard a pair, so i didnt know about them before. Seems A6 ans A9s are loved, are the earlier ones as nice?
Does this fit the type of exposure amp suggested?:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=161074837395&fromMakeTrack=true
Keep your suggestions coming! Any other amps or speakers you would recommend to try?
The sum of the short list:
Amps: Onix A21, Myst Tma3, TVA, Exposure 15
Speakers: Royds (which ones), Splendors (??), Epos ES-14, Usher X708 (or other)
Any views on 'fatigue' for the short listers would be a great help!
The tweeters on their own really aren't the problem 'just' because they have metal domes. HOWEVER, I believe B&W use shallow crossover slopes these days and if this is true, there will be a phasey overlap between the drive units just where your ears are most sensitive and the tweeter may still be audibly struggling at the very bottom of its range if it's not attenuated properly in the crossover and the same if the bass-mid driver has issues at the top of its range. I've also read negative things about Kapton voice coil formers, but can't post a link to where I read it. I only know the CM1 longer term, but these had terrible bass-accuracy issues rather than a problem further up when listening to radio 3 anyway.
As for Spendors, the new floor-standers are smooth but never bland I'm told, as the current designer has worked hard on these. I was a very enthusiastic fan of the now old S and Se series, the S6(e) and S8(e) models especially, and they do come up for well under a grand on the used market. Lovely on orchestral and choral music as well as rock & roll, solid stylish boxes, but possibly better ultimately with a more assertive amp later on (NAD's tended to be beefy and all-enveloping I found).
high.spirits
30-07-2013, 08:14
If you are looking for small stand mounts try and get a listen to some PMC DB1i's.
They are very good and within your budget.
Does this fit the type of exposure amp suggested?:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=161074837395&fromMakeTrack=true
Hi Stuart,
Yes indeed - the amp you have there is the integrated version of my pre and power combo and was and is a highly rated integrated amplifier.
It would drive the Epos ES14 ok as Exposure amps of this generation are good at driving demanding loads but you may hark after something more eventually. It would be a great starting point.
Reference the ES-14's, as you know I have a pair and am extremely happy with them. The only things I would change is they have a little bit of a 'splashy' treble and whilst they go deep for a small speaker I would prefer them to go a little deeper.
Apart from that the Exposure / Epos combo is the least fatiguing system I have ever owned!!!
Paul.
MikeMusic
30-07-2013, 17:08
At the risk of sounding like a stuck record......
Is the mains as good as it can be ?
You can get some remarkable improvements spending little dough at the front end.
Everything in it's own unswitched socket, earth as good as it can be
Unplug dirty stuff from the mains and see if it sounds better
Can be a few minutes spent very well and you will always have it - unless you move :)
Very good point Mike... Probably the biggest upgrade I've ever made was buying a TCI 6 way power block.... Tightened up the sound of the system no end and made it even easier to listen to over long periods!
Easier to listen to and removed much of the dynamic contrast? That is my experience of mains smoothing bits - but YMMV.
I have rather mixed feelings with regard to B&W speakers. The very expensive models (800 serirs) can sound good, but they seem to need huge amounts of amplifier control. The more budget models I have heard have really struck me as boom tizz boxes :(.
Audio Al
30-07-2013, 18:31
These are rather good ;)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B-W-DM2a-loudspeakers-/261251906771?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item3cd3d3bcd3
and they have a following on this very forum :)
At the risk of sounding like a stuck record......
Is the mains as good as it can be ?
You can get some remarkable improvements spending little dough at the front end.
Everything in it's own unswitched socket, earth as good as it can be
Unplug dirty stuff from the mains and see if it sounds better
Can be a few minutes spent very well and you will always have it - unless you move :)
I had never really considered it, please dont feel like a stuck record! I have a lot to learn!
I suspect that there is lots of stuff on the lines that could make the mains messy - and the original supply quality is doubtful (there is 3 phase power at the building switchbox - i know because one phase regularly goes down, leaving 1/2 my apt with out power..., we have brown outs at least monthly too)
Very good point Mike... Probably the biggest upgrade I've ever made was buying a TCI 6 way power block.... Tightened up the sound of the system no end and made it even easier to listen to over long periods!
Could a 90 GBP power strip really help (is this a conditioner)? I would gladly buy it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/True-Colours-TCI-Baby-Constrictor-6-Way-Mains-Power-Block-/390620992749?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Power_Ca bles_Connectors&hash=item5af2d354ed
I always thought 'power conditioners' were too expensive, but these look cheap (probably for a reason?):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Weiduka-AV8-8-10way-Hi-End-Universal-Power-Filter-Conditioner-Block-/290821774856?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b6541e08
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PB10-230V-Powerbrite-Power-Conditioner-/360692556397?pt=UK_MusicalInstruments_Other_Pro_Au dio_Equipment&hash=item53faf3a26d
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lindy-Mains-Conditioner-Power-Strip-6-Way-/330969261456?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item4d0f4e2590
Would you still recommend the same one, or any others?
this one looks quite serious for relatively little money:
i like the universal design (even for voltage!)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261018871223&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en
MikeMusic
31-07-2013, 07:29
The best way is to have an unswitched socket for all your kit. Could be cheapest too
Next best is to get a good and power block. I don't know those Ebay items. I think you can do better - and pay more too !
I have a Russ Andrews Power block I still use in my office and it is better than a cheap power block for sure, paid about £100 on ebay for it 2nd hand.
Have a look around for power block recommendations here, if none found pose a question !
We have at least 2 members selling power blocks here, MCRU and Mark Grant and I would think, not guarantee ! they would out outperform the ones you list
Taking it further you are looking at big money and mains regenerators and similar.
Filters are at least potentially messing with your mains, not necessarily doing it any good
Hope that helps at least for now :)
MikeMusic
31-07-2013, 07:30
The best way is to have an unswitched socket for all your kit. Could be cheapest too
Next best is to get a good and power block. I don't know those Ebay items. I think you can do better - and pay more too !
I have a Russ Andrews Power block I still use in my office and it is better than a cheap power block for sure, paid about £100 on ebay for it 2nd hand.
Have a look around for power block recommendations here, if none found pose a question !
We have at least 2 members selling power blocks here, MCRU and Mark Grant and I would think, not guarantee ! they would out outperform the ones you list
Taking it further you are looking at big money and mains regenerators and similar.
Filters are at least potentially messing with your mains, not necessarily doing it any good
Hope that helps at least for now :)
The best way is to have an unswitched socket for all your kit. Could be cheapest too
Next best is to get a good and power block. I don't know those Ebay items. I think you can do better - and pay more too !
I have a Russ Andrews Power block I still use in my office and it is better than a cheap power block for sure, paid about £100 on ebay for it 2nd hand.
Have a look around for power block recommendations here, if none found pose a question !
We have at least 2 members selling power blocks here, MCRU and Mark Grant and I would think, not guarantee ! they would out outperform the ones you list
Taking it further you are looking at big money and mains regenerators and similar.
Filters are at least potentially messing with your mains, not necessarily doing it any good
Hope that helps at least for now :)
Thats really helpful mike!
I will buy a power block on ebay, there are a couple on there now that look ok :)
Does anyone have experience with these? : USHER COMPASS X-708
I would be keen to hear some opinions on how these sound for 'listening fatique'. They have silk dome, oil filled tweeters - so seems less likely.
There are a pair of them available that i may bid on :eyebrows:
Your thoughts appreciated!!
MikeMusic
01-08-2013, 14:14
Thats really helpful mike!
I will buy a power block on ebay, there are a couple on there now that look ok :)
Glad to help
Have a word with the suppliers here on AoS. I think they can do better !
Silver plated hifi world recommended six gang mains block £70 , why spend more?
Could a 90 GBP power strip really help (is this a conditioner)? I would gladly buy it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/True-Colours-TCI-Baby-Constrictor-6-Way-Mains-Power-Block-/390620992749?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Power_Ca bles_Connectors&hash=item5af2d354ed
I always thought 'power conditioners' were too expensive, but these look cheap (probably for a reason?):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Weiduka-AV8-8-10way-Hi-End-Universal-Power-Filter-Conditioner-Block-/290821774856?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b6541e08
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PB10-230V-Powerbrite-Power-Conditioner-/360692556397?pt=UK_MusicalInstruments_Other_Pro_Au dio_Equipment&hash=item53faf3a26d
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lindy-Mains-Conditioner-Power-Strip-6-Way-/330969261456?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item4d0f4e2590
Would you still recommend the same one, or any others?
The simple answer Stuart is a big Yes!
My first edition for the 'bake off'!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-USHER-COMPASS-X-708-STANDMOUNT-OR-BOOKSHELF-SPEAKERS-EXCELLENT-/200946446467?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=bguS7LG%252FrWJwqEbFCFNRLnLASxc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
Hopefully i will have some luck with a few more purchases too!! I would like to try some Spendors or Epos as well :)
Nice :)
It'd be interesting to compare them to my ES14's :)
Spectral Morn
05-08-2013, 20:46
Easier to listen to and removed much of the dynamic contrast? That is my experience of mains smoothing bits - but YMMV.
I have rather mixed feelings with regard to B&W speakers. The very expensive models (800 serirs) can sound good, but they seem to need huge amounts of amplifier control. The more budget models I have heard have really struck me as boom tizz boxes :(.
That pretty much sums my feelings/experience too but I heard a set of 800s (can't recall model number but massive floor standers) once at the Cloney Audio Show at the Burlington Hotel (Dublin) when B&W distributed Classe (before they bought the company) and frankly the sound was so bad it could have peeled wallpaper and paint, bright does not do justice to how sharp it was - yuck and I fled the room in fear of my hearing being damaged.
Regards Neil
You could do worse than a pair of Dali Suite 2.8s. Very un-fatiguing yet still detailed and a bargain at around £400 - if you can find a pair...
Oldpinkman
06-08-2013, 06:21
The simple answer Stuart is a big Yes!
I keep searching on this mains issue I have been chipping away at in an englishman abroad. Are you confident that if i bring you into your room and you listen blind to your system with and without mains enhancement products in a random pattern, that you will succesfully identify whether the mains is "good" or "bad". Have you tried the test using some simple controls and a valid test procedure? Are you aware of any credible scientific explanation as to how a mains lead could affect the sound, and where could I read this?
Thanks .
Richard
You won't find much support for blind testing on this forum.
Oldpinkman
06-08-2013, 07:23
You won't find much support for blind testing on this forum.
I'm starting to learn this. It's the old Emperor's new clothes again - aka "The Linn chip" (thanks Dave). Very depressing. Enough to have me shuffle back into my hole I think.
Don't get me wrong. I am not knocking Linn products per se. I was scarred in my youth by the staggering market manipulation they managed when I was running PT. As a naieve little boy I bought the mags, thought the reviews were a kind of "Which" independant objective assessment, and then discovered the reality of media manipulation. It wasn't so much the direct consequence of journalist lunches, equipment "loans" , full page ad's every edition to influence, it was the resultant mythology which a host of Mooneys took up and perpetuated that was so scary. Exactly the Emperors New Clothes phenomenon. Exactly what I am again encountering on mains products.
(Don't start me on directional cables - even bloody Arthur was apparently joining the bandwagon given the evidence I found at the factory )
Apart from the concern about people becoming duped, and then, in turn becoming dupers, to maintain their own psychological balance (the condition is called cognative dissonance if anyone wants to look it up), it is so frustrating for those trying to produce genuinely innovative products which attempt to improve music reproduction, to find they are "assessed" by the same black magic mind control as the spurious product which benefits from riding the wave.:steam:
There - that's better - got that off my chest :)
Is ANYBODY going to champion mains cables with reason, logic, and repeatable evidence (some science would be nice, but isn't essential), or am I just going to get another brain-washed "trust me, you'd be amazed"? :(
electric beach
06-08-2013, 07:29
[QUOTE=Stubies;466094]So Doctor, your help please, what are the most musical, engaging amps/speakers you could recommend? I want to get goose bumps listening to my music again! without listening fatigue!!QUOTE]
Stuart, for some reason I can't see more than the first page of the thread so possibly you have found your heaven. If not...
You are describing my speakers! Next time you're in London you are welcome to come and hear for yourself. If you don't find your Nirvana I'll pay for your journey fuel - but that offer's only for London, not Sofia :lol:
realysm42
06-08-2013, 07:32
I'm onto my second pair of ushers. There's a reason its my second.
The first were an absolute revelation, I wanted more of the same, so upgraded. I bought blind both times, the 2nd purchase didn't feel like a risk at all, I was so confident in them from my 1st experiment!
Not the same model as yours (mine are both floor standers) but I've never heard anyone with a bad thing to say about the brand, I'm confident you'll enjoy your time with them!
Jerry on here was going to sell his, but when he plugged them back in, I think they charmed him into keeping them again ;)
Richard,
I more than fully agree with your points. Cognative dissonance holds people, and society, back all the time. It can be very difficult for people to admit they are wrong, and not much fun either - so better and more fun to believe they were always right, after all! :doh:
I could cry over the times i have seen this result in big bad decision making. Oh, i shouldn't mention examples, we could start another WW just here in the thread, you know... :help: "stop this planet, I want to get off" - quote Lucy (from Charlie Brown i think)
Back to the thread
On the point of mains conditioners - i have read a bit on it, and the theory that strikes me as most plausable suggest that 'radio frequencies' interference comes through the mains (as in any conductive material), and can be cleaned out before getting into your kit. Additionally there is the 'spikiness' of the current - which in extreem cases definately does cause artifacts (e.g. ever turn on a hair dryer and see the fuzz appear on your TV? or hear the 'alternator whine' in your car radio?) that can impact sound reproduction, but at less extreem cases i cant say for sure.
Blind tests - well i have not conducted any, and i cant where i live, but in the search for less 'listening fatigue' i will gladly try a device (allbeit not a very pricy one to start).
I'm starting to learn this. It's the old Emperor's new clothes again - aka "The Linn chip" (thanks Dave). Very depressing. Enough to have me shuffle back into my hole I think.
Don't get me wrong. I am not knocking Linn products per se. I was scarred in my youth by the staggering market manipulation they managed when I was running PT. As a naieve little boy I bought the mags, thought the reviews were a kind of "Which" independant objective assessment, and then discovered the reality of media manipulation. It wasn't so much the direct consequence of journalist lunches, equipment "loans" , full page ad's every edition to influence, it was the resultant mythology which a host of Mooneys took up and perpetuated that was so scary. Exactly the Emperors New Clothes phenomenon. Exactly what I am again encountering on mains products.
(Don't start me on directional cables - even bloody Arthur was apparently joining the bandwagon given the evidence I found at the factory )
Apart from the concern about people becoming duped, and then, in turn becoming dupers, to maintain their own psychological balance (the condition is called cognative dissonance if anyone wants to look it up), it is so frustrating for those trying to produce genuinely innovative products which attempt to improve music reproduction, to find they are "assessed" by the same black magic mind control as the spurious product which benefits from riding the wave.:steam:
There - that's better - got that off my chest :)
Is ANYBODY going to champion mains cables with reason, logic, and repeatable evidence (some science would be nice, but isn't essential), or am I just going to get another brain-washed "trust me, you'd be amazed"? :(
Steve,
I will gladly accept your offer. I would like to hear your speakers, they look fabulous. I expect to be in london the last week of August - maybe i could train out to you for a day?
No fuel needed (from either london or sofia ;)
I'll copy this into a PM too just in case you cant read the thread...
Stu
[QUOTE=Stubies;466094]So Doctor, your help please, what are the most musical, engaging amps/speakers you could recommend? I want to get goose bumps listening to my music again! without listening fatigue!!QUOTE]
Stuart, for some reason I can't see more than the first page of the thread so possibly you have found your heaven. If not...
You are describing my speakers! Next time you're in London you are welcome to come and hear for yourself. If you don't find your Nirvana I'll pay for your journey fuel - but that offer's only for London, not Sofia :lol:
MikeMusic
06-08-2013, 08:29
I keep searching on this mains issue I have been chipping away at in an englishman abroad. Are you confident that if i bring you into your room and you listen blind to your system with and without mains enhancement products in a random pattern, that you will succesfully identify whether the mains is "good" or "bad". Have you tried the test using some simple controls and a valid test procedure? Are you aware of any credible scientific explanation as to how a mains lead could affect the sound, and where could I read this?
Thanks .
Richard
There is a point when comparing at which my interest and will power fades away.
I find hifi comparing and upgrading sessions take a fair bit out of me. I can usually last in the session, but knackered the day after.
If there were only a few comparisons I could do that ok.
The swapping would have to be on one piece of kit at a time - do that a few times and I'm pretty confident - with music I know.
Do it countless times and even if my body is still there my brain has left
Somewhere in the very emporium is my thread comparing a mains block to the PS Audio PPP
The PPP won hands down and that persuaded me I needed a P10 !
Don't get me wrong. I am not knocking Linn products per se.
Well, if it hekps, you won't find much support for Linn either.
Martin
Glad to hear that, ive already taken the plunge but the water seems a bit warmer now :)
Reading is my main source of first info - since the shipping to Bulgaria is a bugger. And what i have read about the Ushers is great, and specifically about not being fatiguing too.
I look forward to hear them in person!
I would be curious to know which model did/do you have?
I'm onto my second pair of ushers. There's a reason its my second.
The first were an absolute revelation, I wanted more of the same, so upgraded. I bought blind both times, the 2nd purchase didn't feel like a risk at all, I was so confident in them from my 1st experiment!
Not the same model as yours (mine are both floor standers) but I've never heard anyone with a bad thing to say about the brand, I'm confident you'll enjoy your time with them!
Jerry on here was going to sell his, but when he plugged them back in, I think they charmed him into keeping them again ;)
MikeMusic
06-08-2013, 09:35
Well, if it hekps, you won't find much support for Linn either.
I have a very nice Mana table for an LP12
:)
Oldpinkman
06-08-2013, 11:37
There is a point when comparing at which my interest and will power fades away.
I find hifi comparing and upgrading sessions take a fair bit out of me. I can usually last in the session, but knackered the day after.
If there were only a few comparisons I could do that ok.
The swapping would have to be on one piece of kit at a time - do that a few times and I'm pretty confident - with music I know.
Do it countless times and even if my body is still there my brain has left
Somewhere in the very emporium is my thread comparing a mains block to the PS Audio PPP
The PPP won hands down and that persuaded me I needed a P10 !
That's fair enough. I understand reviewer fatigue. And you have a lot of mains stuff. We can't rewire your house between each listen. But you have described some products as having very large differences, the sort we shouldn't need to fatigue ourselves identifying. And those tiny differences you can only get with acute listening, important for product development, no longer concern me. The differences that concern me are when I plug in an Arcam power amp, instead of a Quad, and settle down to listen to a record with my wife who knows nothing of HiFi, and she says "whats wrong with the record player"? It's why the blind test I suggested to others, was to get an assistant to change without you knowing it on a random pattern generated by a computer, and just listen for the day normally. Note it down as a "state A" or "state B" or "don't know" day. If there are huge differences of the type you describe (like the Arcam for the Quad) then the test will prove the point. And its more natural, and more real , and more important than short term A:B comparisons.
I guess if I get to cherry pick, I would like some brave mains advocate to offer me on a sale or return basis a product that will benefit me and prove the mains point to me. Easiest would be one lead for one component - say the power amp supply lead. In a record player set up the maximum I can do is the mains block and lead to preamp and lead to poweramp - MyTT is supplied DC from a moulded plug adapter. I'll pay the postage. If it works I'll keep it. Preferably after I have a decent power amp back, or I'll be too grumpy to give it a fair evaluation. Any takers? :)
Oldpinkman
06-08-2013, 11:48
Richard,
I more than fully agree with your points. Cognative dissonance holds people, and society, back all the time. It can be very difficult for people to admit they are wrong, and not much fun either - so better and more fun to believe they were always right, after all! :doh:
I could cry over the times i have seen this result in big bad decision making. Oh, i shouldn't mention examples, we could start another WW just here in the thread, you know... :help: "stop this planet, I want to get off" - quote Lucy (from Charlie Brown i think)
Back to the thread
On the point of mains conditioners - i have read a bit on it, and the theory that strikes me as most plausable suggest that 'radio frequencies' interference comes through the mains (as in any conductive material), and can be cleaned out before getting into your kit. Additionally there is the 'spikiness' of the current - which in extreem cases definately does cause artifacts (e.g. ever turn on a hair dryer and see the fuzz appear on your TV? or hear the 'alternator whine' in your car radio?) that can impact sound reproduction, but at less extreem cases i cant say for sure.
Blind tests - well i have not conducted any, and i cant where i live, but in the search for less 'listening fatigue' i will gladly try a device (allbeit not a very pricy one to start).
Brilliant. Let me know how you get on. If you hear no differences - then you don't need a blind test. Clearly mains cleaning (as opposed to designer kettle leads) has some potential. Certainly faulty wiring and other interference are potential issues. But my telly doesn't go fuzzy when there is a hair-dryer on, nor do I get clicks and pops from the fridge. I do get plagued by bloody hum from things like dimmer switches, and in my quest to tackle hum considered a shielded mains cable, until I was given an explanation of why it was the wrong shielding for the electromagnetic radiation I needed to deal with. I accept a good fault free connection will be better than a faulty one. If I wire up with a loose plug, or loose wires in the plug, I am going to hear it when I wobble the wire. But assuming good basic connections, what is a designer kettle lead going to do?
I appreciate your attempt, but I am not sure we have hit science I fancy taking to my friend. I get ribbed enough as it is. If it were true, it would be readily measurable, and someone would measure and publish. I'd quite like to hear the effect and then put the pressure on him to explain it. So waiting for someone to point me to something I can experience for myself. I promise you I have decent kit, and decent hearing, and can bring in a whole bloody orchestra to listen with me if anybody wants to challenge my hearing. If the products work - it will be easy to demonstrate credibly, repeatably. If not, then lets hope it stays summer for the Emporer :)
I'm no supporter of 'elaborate' mains cables, but they are hardly a new concept in the world of hi-fi, you make out as if they have only just been proposed!
There are loads of people who will loan gear on a sale or return basis - even mains leads (both Mark Grant and MCRU will do, for example, but there are many others).
MikeMusic
06-08-2013, 12:02
That's fair enough. I understand reviewer fatigue. And you have a lot of mains stuff. We can't rewire your house between each listen. But you have described some products as having very large differences, the sort we shouldn't need to fatigue ourselves identifying. And those tiny differences you can only get with acute listening, important for product development, no longer concern me. The differences that concern me are when I plug in an Arcam power amp, instead of a Quad, and settle down to listen to a record with my wife who knows nothing of HiFi, and she says "whats wrong with the record player"? It's why the blind test I suggested to others, was to get an assistant to change without you knowing it on a random pattern generated by a computer, and just listen for the day normally. Note it down as a "state A" or "state B" or "don't know" day. If there are huge differences of the type you describe (like the Arcam for the Quad) then the test will prove the point. And its more natural, and more real , and more important than short term A:B comparisons.
I guess if I get to cherry pick, I would like some brave mains advocate to offer me on a sale or return basis a product that will benefit me and prove the mains point to me. Easiest would be one lead for one component - say the power amp supply lead. In a record player set up the maximum I can do is the mains block and lead to preamp and lead to poweramp - MyTT is supplied DC from a moulded plug adapter. I'll pay the postage. If it works I'll keep it. Preferably after I have a decent power amp back, or I'll be too grumpy to give it a fair evaluation. Any takers? :)
My other half is the blind part of my testing as she has no interest in what I'm am doing, just the difference in sound. One ear works and seems to be better than both of mine
Speak to MCRU and you should be able to get a review cable from David
Go for The Ultimate and be prepared to be surprised. Good from new, even better after a few days/weeks so have it for as long as possible. If you don't normally leave the kit on permanently so it burns in.
There is another thing on comparing for me.
I'm after making it better. My interest wanes when I've ticked the box.
I don't like it when a comparison comes up different. Too confusing for my brain :)
Oldpinkman
06-08-2013, 16:51
Mike
Thanks again. I have to go and man the barbeque, but have a 2 minute pass to post. If mains products and directional cables have me running for cover - "need to burn in" gives me the screaming abjabs. It just opens the field to personal interpretation. You will experience what you experience, but IF a product doesn't do what it says on the tin - "you need to let it burn in" is one of those beautiful, untestable offerings for why the hoi poloi (like me) can't experience the inner wisdom of the few.
Valves need to burn in. My advice, and personal experience, is no other electronic item, and certainly not copper, silver, or any other cable needs to. There is again, as far as I am aware, assuredly no science to support it, and I have yet to encounter a convincing repeatable demonstration. It wouldn't be hard. Take 2 fresh cables. Listen to confirm identical. Burn one in for however long is alleged to be necessary, and then compare it with the unburned version. I bet nobody is ever going to be able to pass a blind audition on that. But it is such an appealing reassurance for those wanting admittance to the faith. It reminds me so much of the discussions I have with my brother in law about the proof of Jesus divinity (he leads a Free church in Devon).
But I must emphasise I am sincerely grateful for your comments and responses, by contrast with the "head below the parapet" from most others, and I remain open to a demonstration that my heathen views are wrong from anybody. My fear is Tim is going to bring Jesus to the pub one day and make me eat humble pie big time :)
By contrast I am pretty relaxed nobody is going to prove to me they can burn in a cable and hear the difference :cool:
I bought several pairs of identical Belkin PureAV Silver IC's when they were all the rage a couple of years ago and decided to test the 'burn in' theory for myself. I installed a pair between the DR5 and the Hafler power amp I owned back then and swapped to an unused cable after a month. There was a slight but detectable harshness to the upper frequencies and a woollier bass when using the new cable compared to t'other. Perhaps not all cables respond to a burn in period but the Belkins certainly do ;)
realysm42
06-08-2013, 17:24
Martin
Glad to hear that, ive already taken the plunge but the water seems a bit warmer now :)
Reading is my main source of first info - since the shipping to Bulgaria is a bugger. And what i have read about the Ushers is great, and specifically about not being fatiguing too.
I look forward to hear them in person!
I would be curious to know which model did/do you have?
Hi Stuart,
I jumped in with a pair of cp6311s:
http://www.jordanacoustics.co.uk/product_details.php?ref=1058
Great speakers.
Then I got a pair of the dancer mini2s:
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/loudspeakers/65-reviews/511-usher-dancer-mini-two.html
These things are a bloody revelation! Still burning in (they reckon 200 hours or so) but I'm already in love with them. I don't plan on ever changing them tbh.
I bought the 1st pair at a bargain price purely on the weight of people's recommendations on here. I've repeatedly heard that they as a brand go head to head with speakers costing far more! Enjoy and welcome to the club :)
Oldpinkman
06-08-2013, 18:04
I bought several pairs of identical Belkin PureAV Silver IC's when they were all the rage a couple of years ago and decided to test the 'burn in' theory for myself. I installed a pair between the DR5 and the Hafler power amp I owned back then and swapped to an unused cable after a month. There was a slight but detectable harshness to the upper frequencies and a woollier bass when using the new cable compared to t'other. Perhaps not all cables respond to a burn in period but the Belkins certainly do ;)
Dave
I've a feeling at some stage we need to share a beer. My Dad was evaporated to Northamptonshire in the war, and I visited his Auntie Norma and Uncle Arthur there. Please realise this comment is from someone who bought the Linn chip hook line and sinker. I was at Uni, in final year campus accomodation, the size of an oversized shoe box, with Keesonic Kub speakers, a Nad 3020 amp and a Pink Triangle Ruby bearing with a Linn LVV tonearm, and an overdraft busting Ortofon VMS 20 cos the Linn Basik cartridge was so shit. OK - so I missed total lunacy by being deflected to a PT instead of an LP12, but how much more "front end first" do you want. Nope - gullible me, and I have an almost desperate need to believe in fairy tales.
Just how might a cable burn in? Which atom moves where? The issue here is that you are an honest, likeable man, who experienced what you experienced, but I bet all you can drink you couldn't repeat that result under sensible "scientific" controlled test conditions. Honest mate, Tim will walk in with Jesus, and it will be Jesus standing the round of drinks. However, even I dare not be that arrogant. I am up for it for someone to show me. But we are going to use proper test controls. Is there an engineer in the house wants to support the opposite view?
A bit like the running debate with Quad 33 preamp stages, we could argue till we're blue in the face writing about this stuff. At some stage it needs what I believe is called a bake-off on this site, and I am genuinely interested. But I am confident it will be Jesus buying the round, when I get a convincing demonstration of directional cables, burn-in, or designer kettle leads. Meantime, I don't mind buying this evenings beers myself :cool:
Dave
I've a feeling at some stage we need to share a beer. My Dad was evaporated to Northamptonshire in the war, and I visited his Auntie Norma and Uncle Arthur there. Please realise this comment is from someone who bought the Linn chip hook line and sinker. I was at Uni, in final year campus accomodation, the size of an oversized shoe box, with Keesonic Kub speakers, a Nad 3020 amp and a Pink Triangle Ruby bearing with a Linn LVV tonearm, and an overdraft busting Ortofon VMS 20 cos the Linn Basik cartridge was so shit. OK - so I missed total lunacy by being deflected to a PT instead of an LP12, but how much more "front end first" do you want. Nope - gullible me, and I have an almost desperate need to believe in fairy tales.
Just how might a cable burn in? Which atom moves where? The issue here is that you are an honest, likeable man, who experienced what you experienced, but I bet all you can drink you couldn't repeat that result under sensible "scientific" controlled test conditions. Honest mate, Tim will walk in with Jesus, and it will be Jesus standing the round of drinks. However, even I dare not be that arrogant. I am up for it for someone to show me. But we are going to use proper test controls. Is there an engineer in the house wants to support the opposite view?
A bit like the running debate with Quad 33 preamp stages, we could argue till we're blue in the face writing about this stuff. At some stage it needs what I believe is called a bake-off on this site, and I am genuinely interested. But I am confident it will be Jesus buying the round, when I get a convincing demonstration of directional cables, burn-in, or designer kettle leads. Meantime, I don't mind buying this evenings beers myself :cool:
I'm not up for an argument about this Richard, I can only report what I and the missus heard with our own humble ears. I'm sure after a pint or ten of the old amber nectar even a couple of pieces of string would sound 'wunderbar' to me :)
Hi Stuart,
I jumped in with a pair of cp6311s:
http://www.jordanacoustics.co.uk/product_details.php?ref=1058
Great speakers.
Then I got a pair of the dancer mini2s:
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/loudspeakers/65-reviews/511-usher-dancer-mini-two.html
These things are a bloody revelation! Still burning in (they reckon 200 hours or so) but I'm already in love with them. I don't plan on ever changing them tbh.
I bought the 1st pair at a bargain price purely on the weight of people's recommendations on here. I've repeatedly heard that they as a brand go head to head with speakers costing far more! Enjoy and welcome to the club :)
Thanks Martin!
Maybe one day i can graduate to a bigger one (mini dancers arnt so mini!), if the are as good as you say, im sure i wont want to miss them!
Is ANYBODY going to champion mains cables with reason, logic, and repeatable evidence (some science would be nice, but isn't essential), or am I just going to get another brain-washed "trust me, you'd be amazed"? :(
Richard
I am certainly not going to champion Mains Cables ... BUT.
The way I look at it is this: There is a lot of current running through these beasties, especially the one that goes to the AMP. So what I have done is simply to purchase mains cables that are well shielded. My reasoning is nothing more than that I do not want the electromagnetic field influencing the plethora of other wires behind my hi-fi rack (speaker cables, other mains cables, a usb, a set of rgb coaxials from TV, an aerial, and a spaghetti of interconnects.) Does it make a difference? Hmmm ... I think so!
Andrei
Oldpinkman
07-08-2013, 16:27
Richard
I am certainly not going to champion Mains Cables ... BUT.
The way I look at it is this: There is a lot of current running through these beasties, especially the one that goes to the AMP. So what I have done is simply to purchase mains cables that are well shielded. My reasoning is nothing more than that I do not want the electromagnetic field influencing the plethora of other wires behind my hi-fi rack (speaker cables, other mains cables, a usb, a set of rgb coaxials from TV, an aerial, and a spaghetti of interconnects.) Does it make a difference? Hmmm ... I think so!
Andrei
Yes - I fancied that too. I have a hum problem with my AV input (OK on CD and vinyl, so not enough of a problem to get me worked up). It is a 5m interconnect of dubious provenance and I wondered about running it up some earthed copper tube, and screening the mains cables to reduce the electromagnetic fields. It disappeared when I had the PT Integral, and I have bought some proper cable to do a proper Din to Phono run of the minimum required length, but not yet got round to it - and may not until I get a proper power amp back. My poor friend had already talked me through dealing with all the earth loops and other wierdo's so his patience may have been understandably waning, when I put this last suggestion to him.
Accordingly, I'm not sure I hung on tight enough at the fast bends, but it was something to do with the wrong electromagnetic fields, and flux directions and if any on the engineers on here want to help me out to save me having to ask again, the conclusion was it shouldn't make a difference. It came back to if I wanted to tackle hum, and associated issues, the signal cables were the place to do it, and if I wanted silly long runs (he suggested 4m should be fine) I needed to go balanced.
But I will be interested in Synsei Dave's test if he is prepared to deal with the inconvenience, and call in the support of his good lady, and assuming I am assured that the £50 jobbie from MCRU is going to expect a result, and doesn't come pre-laden with excuses for why it might not work in my set-up, I shall shell out 50 of the Queens english, and hope for great things. Until then, I shall work hard on an open mind, and scour the internet for a shred of scientific backup.
Oh - and since the sun is over the yardarm here in the Riviera...:cool:
PJ, Andrew,
What do you think of this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXPOSURE-VII-8-POWER-AMP-JOHN-FARLOWE-CLASSIC-/161084590564?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item258163c9e4
Thanks everyone for your help!
I owe you a little update.
So far i have added:
Speakers: USHER COMPASS X-708
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/MATCHED-PAIR-USHER-COMPASS-X-708-STANDMOUNT-OR-BOOKSHELF-SPEAKERS-EXCELLENT-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/7YYAAMXQrNtR1o~7/$T2eC16F,!wsE9suw))7vBR1o+7i!)g~~60_12.JPG
Amp: Exposure Super XXV RC Stereo integrated Amplifier
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Exposure-Super-XXV-RC-Stereo-integrated-Amplifier-Gloss-Black-/00/s/Mzg3WDgwMA==/z/uBMAAOxyD9JR98Jj/$(KGrHqZHJCIFHVz0Ns,RBR98JjgSd!~~60_12.JPG
And yes i bought a mains conditioner too...
Mains conditioner: IsoTek MiniSub Mains HiFi Power Conditioner
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IsoTek-MiniSub-Mains-HiFi-Power-Conditioner-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/eLMAAOxyTMhSB64f/$T2eC16dHJHgFFlrgUsk0BSB64fSOR!~~60_12.JPG
I hope to decide on the CD in the next couple days after doing more research....
They are 'in the post' so will report how it sounds when they arrive!
Any thoughts on these: (yes there are two separate ones)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321187495799?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321187487195?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
PJ, you may not have seen this, there were some nice Epos ES-11s, but pickup only/no boxes - great stands too:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290959507460?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
And yes i bought a mains conditioner too...
Mains conditioner: IsoTek MiniSub Mains HiFi Power Conditioner
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/IsoTek-MiniSub-Mains-HiFi-Power-Conditioner-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/eLMAAOxyTMhSB64f/$T2eC16dHJHgFFlrgUsk0BSB64fSOR!~~60_12.JPG
Ooo, if you don't mind, how much did you pay for it???
Any thoughts on these: (yes there are two separate ones)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321187495799?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321187487195?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
PJ, you may not have seen this, there were some nice Epos ES-11s, but pickup only/no boxes - great stands too:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290959507460?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Both the Exposure amps look good, but why don't you try out the integrated first to see what you think!... Also might want to ask Dave (DSJR) whether you can add a Power amp of said vintage to your integrated as I am really not sure :)
Reference the ES-11's - did you buy them? they are damn good speakers and you wouldn't be disappointed... My mate had an Exposure X amp with a cheapy CD player and some average but larger B&W speakers and changed them for a Naim CDI and ES-11's and has never, ever looked back! :) :)
it was 200 gbp on ebay - i was the only bidder
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190883950847?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
So either i got lucky, or....
still i think it was a good buy
Ooo, if you don't mind, how much did you pay for it???
That sounds like a bargain, you'll have to let us know the impact it has on your system :)
Both the Exposure amps look good, but why don't you try out the integrated first to see what you think!... Also might want to ask Dave (DSJR) whether you can add a Power amp of said vintage to your integrated as I am really not sure :)
yes i will, just keeping an eye out
Reference the ES-11's - did you buy them? they are damn good speakers and you wouldn't be disappointed... My mate had an Exposure X amp with a cheapy CD player and some average but larger B&W speakers and changed them for a Naim CDI and ES-11's and has never, ever looked back! :) :)
oh i wish i could have, local pickup was impossible as im only in london occassionally - (=>enter emoticon for crocodile tears)
I'm sure you'll find another pair on Fleabay. You'll regularly see them pop up... try and ensure you get them with the dedicated stands if you can.. makes one hell of a difference :)
Paul.
Due to the lyrical waxing by AOSers, I am now the owner of Epos ES14s. And they even come with the famous Epos stands!:eyebrows:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Epos-ES14-Loudspeakers-ES-14-Speakers-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/zyEAAOxyw0tR6EcX/$T2eC16d,!zoE9s5ngH4pBR6EcWuU-Q~~60_1.JPG
I think the price was good (150), now im arranging transport. There are a lot of man w/vans available on ebay I have used some before (I furnished a house with ebay, it turned out great! And cheap!!), this time I will probably use http://www.packsend.co.uk/store-detail.php, to both pick up and pack and send.
There are a few cosmetic blemishes/ring marks, which I will be happy to restore.
Here is a question. The seller says There is also the very tiniest eggshell cracking of the rubber surrounds to the mid-bass cones. This is a long way from causing any sonic degradation, and these speakers should still provide excellent service for some years to come. Should i be concerned? plan a refome soon?:scratch:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221270566992&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123
Lodgesound
22-08-2013, 13:26
If the surround has failed in one area then it will fail completely within months....
Do a full replacement - its not difficult and will take you around a day - I've just had to do BOTH my studio monitors for the same reason & well worth it! Replacement drivers for the JBL's were £500....EACH!!....
New foam surrounds were £40.....for the pair!
Thanks Stewart,
Any recommendations where to buy the foam surrounds?
If the surround has failed in one area then it will fail completely within months....
Do a full replacement - its not difficult and will take you around a day - I've just had to do BOTH my studio monitors for the same reason & well worth it! Replacement drivers for the JBL's were £500....EACH!!....
New foam surrounds were £40.....for the pair!
Thanks Stewart,
Any recommendations where to buy the foam surrounds?
Stuart, good choice with the speakers :D ... the ES14's don't use Foam surrounds. I think they are a composite of some description. I've got a couple of blemishes on mine and they've been good for years so unless they die i'd leave well alone!
So now all you need to do is get yourself a CDI and you'll not be far away from my system :)
Paul.
Also from the pics, they look in pretty good condition... what you gonna do with the other speakers you bought recently?
P.
walpurgis
22-08-2013, 17:31
Why not speak to Epos. I'm sure they could advise.
southall-1998
22-08-2013, 19:04
The CDI is on my list!
The CDI is on my list!
It should be on everybody's list at least once Shane :)
The CDI should be retired with honours before the transport gives out :lol:
I believe Lockwood Audio may be able to help with old Epos parts. Why not try to use some furniture polish on a lint-free cloth on the surrounds? You won't do any harm and although PJ won't agree, these were designed to have the supplied sponge bungs IN PLACE and be placed close to a wall. I used to put the bubgs in sideways so there was a bit more bass, but removing them makes them boom badly at 80Hz, conformed by the designer Robin Marshall, whom I used to know well since the Audiomaster/KJ days.
The CDI should be retired with honours before the transport gives out :lol:
I believe Lockwood Audio may be able to help with old Epos parts. Why not try to use some furniture polish on a lint-free cloth on the surrounds? You won't do any harm and although PJ won't agree, these were designed to have the supplied sponge bungs IN PLACE and be placed close to a wall. I used to put the bubgs in sideways so there was a bit more bass, but removing them makes them boom badly at 80Hz, conformed by the designer Robin Marshall, whom I used to know well since the Audiomaster/KJ days.
You're so right about the transport but for a 20 year old player it does pretty well.
Personally I much prefer the ES14 without their bungs in and since adding the second Exposure XVIII I have rarely experience boom.
The problem I have with the bungs in is that they sound somewhat thin almost boxy, but with them in they sound fuller, almost warm.
Watch out for the splashy treble Stuart. But to be honest with the Exposure integrated amplifier you should be fine it's design has a slight warmth to the sound :)
Hi PJ
I plan to have 2 systems, one in the living room, and one in a listening room/office.
At least thats the plan... we will see how it goes! :)
Also from the pics, they look in pretty good condition... what you gonna do with the other speakers you bought recently?
P.
And the latest addition: Creek CD60
http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/wp-content/themes/fidelity-audio/images/cd60.jpg
We will see how they will sound together when they arrive :)
Thanks again for all your help and advice!!
The Outcast
28-08-2013, 07:08
I would be very tempted to suggest a valve amp with the B&W's dependig on what type of music you listen too. there is a disparity between the NAD amp and your speakers in my honest opinion.
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