Banking - The Greatest Scam On Earth

[John R Leddy]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9IH-XKQpOI

[DSJR]

Scum too, but I'm not going there on a public forum :steam:

[Macca]

I love the bit where he tells us what we can do about it. Get out of debt, buy gold and silver coins and cut up your credit cards. I bet the Fed is shaking in its boots! And try paying in the supermarket with Kruggerands, that will get you some odd looks. Even if they took them you are still going to get your change in fiat currency. I was hoping he was going to be handing out AK47s, cos lets face it that's what it would take.

[John R Leddy]

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Scum too, but I'm not going there on a public forum :steam:

Aw, go on Dave, let rip!

I'm guessing, similar to myself, you possibly include bankers, bent policemen, car salesmen, estate agents, insurance salesmen, politicians, religious fundamentalists, and solicitors in your category of rogues.

Please accept my apologies for others I may have inadvertently forgotten.

John.

[John R Leddy]

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I love the bit where he tells us what we can do about it. Get out of debt, buy gold and silver coins and cut up your credit cards. I bet the Fed is shaking in its boots! And try paying in the supermarket with Kruggerands, that will get you some odd looks. Even if they took them you are still going to get your change in fiat currency. I was hoping he was going to be handing out AK47s, cos lets face it that's what it would take.

Good choice of weapon Martin.

Without presenting myself too seriously, please allow me to eject, belch, and spew waffle into the ether...

I notice our Government is doing its damnedest to encourage us to spend more, which really translates into borrow more. That is to say, create more of the fiat litter you mention. I can't see savers enjoying watching their currency devalue even further.

In a debt-based economy Governments and central banks do worry when we all stop spending. It wreaks havoc with their plans and ambitions, and they get up to all sorts of trickery to increase or re-start our borrowing.

As an aside, in the past when employees were paid in cash, it was possible to exclude the banks from our transactions. An employee who had been paid in cash could make a purchase from a vendor, and the employee selling the goods could well be paid with the very same bank notes; and so forth, onwards without the banks ever getting their hands on the physical currency. The banks asked the Government to intercede and of course they obliged without hesitation. Sold to the public as a means of precluding a black economy, the banks immediately gained control of our currency.

Now, I'm guessing, the vast majority of bank current accounts have an overdraught facility, credit cards are issued willy-nilly, and you can't buy a packet of Polo mints without being asked if you'd like a store card.

Some think encouraging more borrowing is wreckless, while others see currency creation without interest creation as being fraudulent, as the creator of currency knows in advance all loans cannot possibly be paid off, thereby guaranteeing the creditor both capital and interest payments on loan of virtual money, whilst most likely securing the original asset for the loan as well. Interesting concept really, as it's the debtor, not the creditor, who is perceived as being delinquent.

If the population absolutely refused all credit, and paid cash for everything, whilst withdrawing all currency from the banks and refusing to give it back, the system would grind to a halt and fiat currency would more than likely find its true value. I would take a chance and say, at this point commodities would still possess value.

So, while today it's possible to spend as legal tender the £2.00 face value 1oz silver Britannia in Tesco, (but of course why would you when the spot value of silver is £13.00 a troy ounce), I wonder what the commodity value of the same £2.00 1oz coin would be in a world where fiat currency had collapsed to a value of zero. The coin's value would also have collapsed from £2.00 to zero, but as a commodity would it be worth more or less than its current £13.00 spot value? Whatever, it is certainly easy to carry, can be physically divided into smaller values, and possesses a universally accepted value throughout the world at a given point in time.

I agree 100% with Martin, a good fight is what it's going to take to sort this mess out. However, my cynicism is such I don't see Government or their banker friends having the ethical, moral, or physical strength to face the people. Rather it would be far better, and a damn sight safer, if the people were all off fighting someone else somewhere else. Of course the Government would stay at home organising, and the bankers would also have to remain in order to finance our little jaunt into oblivion / expedition. Don't worry though, they'll glorify you, well at least once a year anyway, if only in order to condition the next generation of subjects.

The Government, all governments, are punks! They haven't got the gumption to bring us successfully through this economic turmoil. Being lazy and incompetent is one thing, but they are also scared, and being frightened they will collude with others to force their populaces to accept responsibilty for their government's economic inaction.

In my opinion this so-called war on terror, being a fallacy in itself, is merely a primer, foreplay if you like, to the inevitable crisis of substantial war due to a complete lack of political imagination and commitment to the wellfare of its people by a somewhat farcical Government.

As I say, pure waffle...

John.

[walpurgis]

John, do you analyse and ponder a lot? Seems like you've given a lot of thought to the foregoing, I could and used to do the same, but find these days there's no reward and just let the world roll on, as I'm in no position to sort it out! :)

[system7]

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3717/citylightsp.jpg

I always look at these glittering city financial districts with distrust. How do these people make their money? Mostly by rigging every market there is to fleece us all. Read Matt Taibbi if you want to know what endless scams these bankers are up to, from rigging ForEx trading to Energy prices.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog

Like most of us, I get a sense of unreality about the whole concept of money. So it was a laugh to read the Onion spoof on Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke realising that money was actually worthless:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-economy-grinds-to-halt-as-nation-realizes-money,2912/?ref=auto


U.S. Economy Grinds To Halt As Nation Realizes Money Just A Symbolic, Mutually Shared Illusion.

WASHINGTON—The U.S. economy ceased to function this week after unexpected existential remarks by Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke shocked Americans into realizing that money is, in fact, just a meaningless and intangible social construct...

..."It's just an illusion," a wide-eyed Bernanke added as he removed bills from his wallet and slowly spread them out before him. "Just look at it: Meaningless pieces of paper with numbers printed on them. Worthless."

...For some Americans, the fog of disbelief surrounding the nation's epiphany has begun to lift, with many building new lives free from the illusion of money.

"It's back to basics for me," Bernard Polk of Waverly, OH said. "I'm going to till the soil for my own sustenance and get anything else I need by bartering. If I want milk, I'll pay for it in tomatoes. If need a new hoe, I'll pay for it in lettuce."

When asked, hypothetically, how he would pay for complicated life-saving surgery for a loved one, Polk seemed uncertain.

"That's a lot of vegetables, isn't it?" he said.

[John R Leddy]

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John, do you analyse and ponder a lot? Seems like you've given a lot of thought to the foregoing, I could and used to do the same, but find these days there's no reward and just let the world roll on, as I'm in no position to sort it out! :)

Hi Geoff,

Thanks, but you're being way too generous describing my mental meandering as thought. I don't really have an analytical mind to be honest, and currently simply can't afford the time to pondering anything in great depth whether I wished to or not. My musings aren't tasks at all, but my sense of humour can't help noticing the greatest effect may sometimes be achieved by doing next to nothing. Refuse to incur debt. Pay for everything with cash. Change all excess currency into commodities. Job done.

I don't know how old you are, but my generation are a right apathetic lot while at the same time seeming to think the world owes them something. Quite an embarrassment really. I'm glad to see those who followed have greater political awareness and are more likely to create a little noise, if only to let bent bankers and crooked politicians know they're being watched. Good for them, I say; let's have more of it. Anything that kicks against Germanic-type compliance is a good thing to me.

All the best,

John.

[John R Leddy]

.

I always look at these glittering city financial districts with distrust. How do these people make their money? Mostly by rigging every market there is to fleece us all. Read Matt Taibbi if you want to know what endless scams these bankers are up to, from rigging ForEx trading to Energy prices.

Like most of us, I get a sense of unreality about the whole concept of money. So it was a laugh to read the Onion spoof on Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke realising that money was actually worthless.

Hi Steve,

I howled with laughter when Bernanke stated gold wasn't money. Even better, he seems to think currency is money. I near wet myself.

All the best,

John.

[walpurgis]

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Refuse to incur debt. Pay for everything with cash. Change all excess currency into commodities. Job done.


I don't know how old you are


Yes, I go along with that line of thought.


And, I became a pensioner on Friday! (don't feel like one though)

[DSJR]

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Aw, go on Dave, let rip!

I'm guessing, similar to myself, you possibly include bankers, bent policemen, car salesmen, estate agents, insurance salesmen, politicians, religious fundamentalists, and solicitors in your category of rogues.

Please accept my apologies for others I may have inadvertently forgotten.

John.

Nah, I love everyone, but currently not bankers ;)

I'd sooner discuss your rather nice vintage avatar myself. SME plinth too :)

[John R Leddy]

.

Yes, I go along with that line of thought.

And, I became a pensioner on Friday! (don't feel like one though)

Congratulations Geoff.

I hope you enjoy your retirement to the full.

John.

[John R Leddy]

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Nah, I love everyone, but currently not bankers ;)

I'd sooner discuss your rather nice vintage avatar myself. SME plinth too :)

Dave,

Ah yes, the old SME 2000. What a beast! It was huge, and completely impractical really. The last record deck I owned. I used it up to 1985 before buying my first CD player, a Philips CD160 if my memory is serving me correctly. I immediately sold all my LPs and never looked back. Today I no longer own a CD player, and don't miss that either.

This tagging of FLAC files is a bit of a scene though; I appear to be culturing symptoms of OCD. I've tagged 1,853 discs so far with currently another 2,073 albums to go. I really enjoy streamimg my music. Besides 0-9, A, B,... Z directories, I have created a directory named 1959, (no prizes for guessing which 4 albums it contains), and hitting shuffle on that directory transports me to all sorts of places.

I get so into the music the replay equipment really has no relevance, and attempting to pinpoint and allocate a particular character or sound to a single component within a line of thousands simply bursts my bubble, (sounds a bit ludicrous too!); and I haven't paid thousands of pounds for a hi-fi system for that.

I started with this caper in 1975, and to this day still can't work out how to transfer sound from my loudspeaker drive units to a cable or other component. At the risk of sounding like a complete nump, I'll confess to never having understood 99.9% of hi-fi jargon. Maybe I'm dyslexic, because it just sounds like a load of old tosh to me.

All the best,

John.

[walpurgis]

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Congratulations Geoff.

I hope you enjoy your retirement to the full.


John.

Ta, I'll do my best!

[DSJR]

I dunno John, going off thread-topic as usual, but despite using CD as main source (even burning FLACs to WAV-CD for convenience in the car), i could NEVER dispose of my vinyl collection. The CD160 would have just lost so much compared to what came along - at low cost - just a few years later - in my opinion of course - and of course, bringing things up to date with those original CD's played on modest players NOW would be another refinement I think.

The past proper turntable I had was a TD125 in stock plinth. Not sure I hanker after it as I do the 33/303 I passed on at the same time, but I respected mine hugely and got a very good sound indeed from it via a partly rewired Rega R200 and Decca Microscanner, which worked far better than I thought it would. Interesting that now the Dual 701 is back in service 'downstairs,' it rarely gets used unless it's comparing cartridges - summat wrong there, oh I know, wifey is home with me at the moment during the holidays so I can't play the downstairs stuff in anger :(

[Kember]

I find these days there's no reward and just let the world roll on, as I'm in no position to sort it out! :)

I'm with Geoff. And fiat money is too convenient to get rid of.

Anyway, if you don't want to be in debt, don't take credit, don't have cards or overdrafts, don't do business with those who insist on them, have a bank account with a building society, pay cash etc etc. Debt is not compulsory.

I don't invest money in the City on the same basis as I don't play poker - if you are asking who the fool at the table is, you already have your answer...

Peter

[Oldpinkman]

I don't invest money in the City on the same basis as I don't play poker - if you are asking who the fool at the table is, you already have your answer...

Peter

How do you provide for your retirement? Do you belong to a company pension scheme? That will invest in the city for you. It's success will determine your retirement provision. Sometimes you need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater :)

[Rothchild]

You might also like: http://www.positivemoney.org/

and: http://rollingjubilee.org/

[John R Leddy]

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I'm with Geoff. And fiat money is too convenient to get rid of.

Anyway, if you don't want to be in debt, don't take credit, don't have cards or overdrafts, don't do business with those who insist on them, have a bank account with a building society, pay cash etc etc. Debt is not compulsory.

I don't invest money in the City on the same basis as I don't play poker - if you are asking who the fool at the table is, you already have your answer...

Peter

Hi Peter,

I like the one about the poker player.

When you say "fiat money is too convenient to get rid of" do you mean the linen or the concept of fiat currency?

I wonder if we would be in the state we are in today if notes were still money. I am guessing not, but you never know, greed is a terrible thing and can corrupt the best of men.

The problem with a debt-based economy is debt creation is prerequisite, and without it the whole system collapses. Of course, on a personal level we can be switched-on and avoid personal debt, remove currency from banks, stash commodities, and pay for goods and services with cash.

However, the fractional reserve banking system we currently possess, which has run its course in the eyes of many, remains by its very nature inflationary through its debasement of currency, effectively stealing value from those who choose to save with financial institutions.

I decided to go with commodities, in their physical form, so hopefully I will not be cleaned-out by the time I retire. For many it is already too late; years of "investment" stolen by those some see as fraudsters and should be imprisoned, but who contrarily have acquired superior financial reward and freedom.

John.

[John R Leddy]

.

You might also like: http://www.positivemoney.org (http://www.positivemoney.org/)

Hi Marc,

First the dot com bubble.
Followed by the housing bubble.
Hopefully a commodity bubble.
Then retire.

John.

[Rothchild]

Yeah, I'm waiting for wages to catch up with inflation so that my mortgage doesn't seem so scary :whistle:

IMO we need less 'Chicago School' economics, lower prices are not the sole metric of healthy market, indeed corporate monopolies have demonstrated they can hold prices down for as long as it takes to remove the competition, which is an essentially anti-capitalistic position.

Around the world govts are fighting the fact that the people know this and don't want any more of the kleptocracy, they continue to bluff that they don't get it but it's becoming a game of hot potato for them.

[John R Leddy]

.

Yeah, I'm waiting for wages to catch up with inflation so that my mortgage doesn't seem so scary :whistle:

IMO we need less 'Chicago School' economics, lower prices are not the sole metric of healthy market, indeed corporate monopolies have demonstrated they can hold prices down for as long as it takes to remove the competition, which is an essentially anti-capitalistic position.

Around the world govts are fighting the fact that the people know this and don't want any more of the kleptocracy, they continue to bluff that they don't get it but it's becoming a game of hot potato for them.

Marc,

You will have a long wait with these Lab-Lib-Con Keynesian twits running the show!

Maybe we should ban usury on your domestic or primary mortgage; or maybe altogether. How does that sound? Fair enough?

After all, Government's concern is to attend to the welfare of its citizens, not financial institutions. If current institutions do not like this they can always bugger off elsewhere and this will allow modern-day, forward-thinking entrepreneurs to open new societies.

John.

[John R Leddy]

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I dunno John, going off thread-topic as usual, but despite using CD as main source (even burning FLACs to WAV-CD for convenience in the car), i could NEVER dispose of my vinyl collection. The CD160 would have just lost so much compared to what came along - at low cost - just a few years later - in my opinion of course - and of course, bringing things up to date with those original CD's played on modest players NOW would be another refinement I think.

The past proper turntable I had was a TD125 in stock plinth. Not sure I hanker after it as I do the 33/303 I passed on at the same time, but I respected mine hugely and got a very good sound indeed from it via a partly rewired Rega R200 and Decca Microscanner, which worked far better than I thought it would. Interesting that now the Dual 701 is back in service 'downstairs,' it rarely gets used unless it's comparing cartridges - summat wrong there, oh I know, wifey is home with me at the moment during the holidays so I can't play the downstairs stuff in anger :(

That's interesting Dave. You possess FLAC files but consider your main source CD? Or is it you're ripping OEM CDs to WAV then FLAC, and converting back to WAV before burning to CD-ROM? I hope I got that right! Anyway...

I wonder if the whole LP collection thing is just the way we grew up, or maybe what with; if that makes sense. There is something essentially romantic concerning youth and discovering new albums. Slowly collecting favourite albums which reflected tastes at the time and laying claim to personality yet to be discovered, as if the collection itself was also on life's journey.

The Philips CD160 was a hellish sounding CD player. After LPs and record decks it simply screeched music at me. I seem to remember reading somewhere on the internet DAC filters (which, I don't know) on most, if not all, CD players at the time were to blame for the ear-shredding tinniness, and apparently the players themselves were meant to be OK. May be true; then again, maybe not. Either way, it was later replaced with a Hi-Fi Choice, I think it was, £300 best buy. Which player escapes me. Ultimately I ended up owning a Linn 2.1 Unidisk before changing to streaming, which had me chuckling away to myself quite regularly.

I do not hanker after previously owned hi-fi components, but then again I have never owned Quad equipment. I have a serious bug up my arse concerning noise so simply could not go back to LPs or tapes. What I really miss about not having LPs is reading the covers and learning the sequence of tracks, and so forth, while the album is playing. I have digital music on my servers which I do not have a clue about. It was 1975 before I could afford my first separates system: Leak 2001 Transcription Turntable + Leak 2000 Tuner Amplifier + Leak 2030 Loudspeakers.

John.

[Kember]

How do you provide for your retirement? Do you belong to a company pension scheme? That will invest in the city for you. It's success will determine your retirement provision. Sometimes you need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater :)

Richard,

I understand your point but I have absolutely no faith in the system. Regardless of whose interests they are working for, the financiers don't seem that competent - they are proven to be incapable of beating a random pick on a consistent basis, but the fees they gouge for their expertise have an enormous impact on growth. On top of that, of course, nice Mr Brown ensured that not only do we pay tax on the earnings of the shares in the pension funds as revenues accrue but we will also then pay tax on the income. And on top of that, look at the quality of the regulators. All in all, not a very attractive proposition.

I sixteen years of civil service pension accrued, which the government will probably welsh on at some point. I only have a small company pot from early in my career. Since I left the CS, I decided not to entrust any money to the stock market or anyone related to it. I'm afraid I decided to become a rentier - I have bought residential property as an investment. I try to be as decent and reasonable a landlord as I can be and I'm in it for the long haul.

Peter

[Kember]

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Hi Peter,

I like the one about the poker player.

When you say "fiat money is too convenient to get rid of" do you mean the linen or the concept of fiat currency?

I wonder if we would be in the state we are in today if notes were still money. I am guessing not, but you never know, greed is a terrible thing and can corrupt the best of men.

The problem with a debt-based economy is debt creation is prerequisite, and without it the whole system collapses. Of course, on a personal level we can be switched-on and avoid personal debt, remove currency from banks, stash commodities, and pay for goods and services with cash.

However, the fractional reserve banking system we currently possess, which has run its course in the eyes of many, remains by its very nature inflationary through its debasement of currency, effectively stealing value from those who choose to save with financial institutions.

I decided to go with commodities, in their physical form, so hopefully I will not be cleaned-out by the time I retire. For many it is already too late; years of "investment" stolen by those some see as fraudsters and should be imprisoned, but who contrarily have acquired superior financial reward and freedom.

John.

John,


I cannot for the life of me see how QE is any more respectable than the kind of inflationary printing of money which the Argentine government used to indulge in in the 60s and 70s.

I understand your position and it is a perfectly rational personal position to take. The funny thing is that, if you do hold assets rather than paper, you will end up being cursed for hoarding in the fullness of time!

Peter

[John R Leddy]

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John,

I cannot for the life of me see how QE is any more respectable than the kind of inflationary printing of money which the Argentine government used to indulge in in the 60s and 70s.

I understand your position and it is a perfectly rational personal position to take. The funny thing is that, if you do hold assets rather than paper, you will end up being cursed for hoarding in the fullness of time!

Peter

Peter,

You've lost me.

I've read and re-read my post and cannot see where you are coming from regarding quantitative easing. Your reply sounds like quite a strong rebuttal against something which has previously been stated, but I am unable to find any trace of its context. Which part of my post has you judging my opinion concerning quantitative easing, and what do you perceive my opinion to be?

I think I need to be honest for others reading this post. Peter has generously stated my stance is rational. Alas, it is not. There is nothing rational about hoping commodities will increase in value in such a way as can only be described as a bubble. Firstly, it is dependent on the bubble occurring at all; and secondly, knowing when to sell.

However, there is an upside. Unlike the housing bubble where lenders knew in advance properties were not worth the value of the loans they were issuing and borrowers, mesmerised by greed, would be burdened with negative equity or forced to relinquish the property, a win win situation for the lender, my purchases are portable, divisible, and possess worldwide demand and value through industrial usage.

So bubble or not, my purchases are likely to be at least a hedge against inflation. A bubble would be a bonus when it comes time to sell, and of course I wouldn't want to be in need of further purchases of goods requiring use of the commodities I'm selling. So, more wishful thinking rather than a rational position I'm afraid.

Right, back to Peter...

Peter,

What is the nature of this curse you mention? Should I be worried? Will it incur physical damage to my person? Are we talking about some sort of religious spell? What?

The thought of me having enough of anything to be considered a hoarder just doesn't sound right at all. If only!

Oh, and before I forget, when you say "fiat money is too convenient to get rid of" do you mean the linen or the concept of fiat currency?

John.

[Rothchild]

My view is that fiat currencies are only really an issue when combined with fractional reserve banking (as a money creating process), that's how you end up in the debt based money trap that we're in now. (because the only value that can be assigned to the currency is to do with how much faith you have in the government's tax collecting ability rather than an asset backup).

[DSJR]

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I do not hanker after previously owned hi-fi components, but then again I have never owned Quad equipment. I have a serious bug up my arse concerning noise so simply could not go back to LPs or tapes. What I really miss about not having LPs is reading the covers and learning the sequence of tracks, and so forth, while the album is playing. I have digital music on my servers which I do not have a clue about. It was 1975 before I could afford my first separates system: Leak 2001 Transcription Turntable + Leak 2000 Tuner Amplifier + Leak 2030 Loudspeakers.

John.

I don't listen very loud these days and I think my ears are now WELL past their best on hf sensitivity/threshold grounds, so apart from the odd tick and plop, I'm not troubled by vinyl noise floor unless I'm listening to headphones.

Remember my decades of trade history, which colours me forever badly in some people's eyes (the ones who regard all audio retailers as the scum of the earth rip-off merchants). I've had many Quad 33/303's pass through my hands, yet it wasn't until the mid 90's, long after they were discontinued, that I actually 'got' what these dinky little devices were on about - and also how good the grossly under-rated 77 integrated amp is. The 33 can be updated to an acceptable standard (it's still way behind in stock form though - not enough output capability) but the dear old 303 can sound absolutely lovely when used within its capabilities and it's gracious if pushed too hard too.

As for sources, if I'm in the 'office' tinkering around with clocks or summat, I use whatever is to hand witht e music on, which could be vinyl, CD or the old Shuttle as a music server, either playing wavs or FLACs via Foobar (J-River at £50? PAH!! :lol:). In the downstairs stereo, I haven't yet made up a thin stereo link from laptop (external USB DAC) to the preamp, although I'll give it a go sometime (B&O Powerlink cable used to make an excellent general purpose very thin interconnect I remember with acceptable sonics).

Please excuse the thread drift - back to sodding greedy b*stards - sorry, bankers......

[Kember]

.


Peter,



Which part of my post has you judging my opinion concerning quantitative easing, and what do you perceive my opinion to be?

John,

Sorry for the delay in replying - tiresome interval of work.

"by its very nature inflationary through its debasement of currency, effectively stealing value from those who choose to save with financial institutions"

Admittedly, a response based on a quick reading and maybe dulled by a beer or two: I may have read into it more than you were saying...but QE is the logical consequence in the current situation of the fractional system, I was simply saying that the fraction is getting vanishingly smaller...If I have misread your point, apologies.

"I decided to go with commodities, in their physical form, so hopefully I will not be cleaned-out by the time I retire."

The serious point behind my light-hearted point is that these commodities become a substitute store of value when a currency is debauched. During the war, nylons and fresh meat were quite the thing! But the people who sold them were not very popular...I don't think it is too fanciful to imagine a situation where people who have things people need - commodities - rather than wheelbarrows full of useless paper will be looked on in envy.


when you say "fiat money is too convenient to get rid of" do you mean the linen or the concept of fiat currency? Both.

Best

Peter

[John R Leddy]

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John,

Sorry for the delay in replying - tiresome interval of work.

"by its very nature inflationary through its debasement of currency, effectively stealing value from those who choose to save with financial institutions"

Admittedly, a response based on a quick reading and maybe dulled by a beer or two: I may have read into it more than you were saying...but QE is the logical consequence in the current situation of the fractional system, I was simply saying that the fraction is getting vanishingly smaller...If I have misread your point, apologies.

"I decided to go with commodities, in their physical form, so hopefully I will not be cleaned-out by the time I retire."

The serious point behind my light-hearted point is that these commodities become a substitute store of value when a currency is debauched. During the war, nylons and fresh meat were quite the thing! But the people who sold them were not very popular...I don't think it is too fanciful to imagine a situation where people who have things people need - commodities - rather than wheelbarrows full of useless paper will be looked on in envy.

when you say "fiat money is too convenient to get rid of" do you mean the linen or the concept of fiat currency?

Both.

Best

Peter

Hi Peter,

Good description, "tiresome interval of work."

Grand. I think we are there, same page, and all that. While I was describing the situation, I was not saying I agreed with quantitative easing as a valid means for generating economic growth. Blimey, some call it "counterfeiting," which makes me chuckle. I realise the theory is the Bank of England will eventually sell government bonds into the marketplace, destroy the currency it created, and whoopee woo, we are all back to normal again.

My problem is now, and not for myself, though of course we are all effected one way or another. For some the action of diluting, others call it "stealing," the purchasing power of a lifetime's investment and saving is irreparable. I detest Government intervention. They really do need to bugger off and get on with doing something worthwhile, and stop this incessant meddling.

Promoting an increase in lending as a solution for economic recovery is just too weird! This governmental protectionism for financial institutions at the expense of businesses and the populace really bugs the living daylights out of me. If I had my way, I would probably have most financial products banned for being fraudulent.

I would like to see Government more concerned with protecting the marketplace for entrepreneurs to take responsibility for their own gains and losses whilst financing new projects. Government could also elevate the financial security of the populace to a primary role, as opposed to treating them like mere serfs whose main purpose is to accumulate more debt.

I am not a socialist, and I certainly do not believe in an equalising redistribution of wealth as a right, so to speak, but I definitely believe the accumulated wealth of a man's labour and accomplishment should have a controlled and limited potential for value adjustment. Government's current disinterest for the financial consequences suffered by the very people supporting the economy is just downright immoral.

I am sure we do not need to concern ourselves with the popularity of spivs. Far more serious a point would be to dismantle the shackles of dependency and expectation whilst providing a route to collective and personal security. I appreciate governmentally decreed currency may be required, but personally I would like it to be backed by commodities; representative currency, if you prefer, be it 100% digital or otherwise.

I am not envious of you owning properties and being a landlord. I admire your endeavours and hope they provide financial independence and security for a long time to come. I would certainly not wish to see governmental interference devaluing your assets to the detriment of you and your family.

All the best,

John.

[John R Leddy]

.

My view is that fiat currencies are only really an issue when combined with fractional reserve banking (as a money creating process), that's how you end up in the debt based money trap that we're in now. (because the only value that can be assigned to the currency is to do with how much faith you have in the government's tax collecting ability rather than an asset backup).

Good point Marc.

I am guilty of far too readily using the term "fiat currency" in a derogatory fashion, in order to differentiate currency from what I consider worthy of being called actual money.

Really the governmental decree part, fiat, while declaring legal tender, is not necessarily as important as the material we all agree to use as currency. Practicality aside, animals or gem stones could be just as acceptable a means of exchange.

The true enemy of our financial security is the creation of imaginary money through continued debt generation, whilst increased taxation destroys any possibility of economic growth and stability.

Some suggest if we wish to spend our way out of recession it should be via reduced taxation, not increased debt. Of course, this would also necessitate reduced public spending, which is highly unlikely to be embraced by our overly dependent and pampered electorate.

I guess I just do not have enough faith in a currency with no intrinsic value, and require something a little more tangible in its place.

John.

[Rothchild]

The true enemy of our financial security is the creation of imaginary money through continued debt generation, whilst increased taxation destroys any possibility of economic growth and stability.


I couldn't quite read your tone in your original response, did you check out the link to www.positivemoney.org ? It's actually a campaign to stop money being debt based and to develop a transparent and publicly owned money creation process (rather than have M1 and 2 money generated/imagined out of money lending against fractional reserves aka 'The money multiplier' )

[John R Leddy]

.

I couldn't quite read your tone in your original response, did you check out the link to www.positivemoney.org (http://www.positivemoney.org) ? It's actually a campaign to stop money being debt based and to develop a transparent and publicly owned money creation process (rather than have M1 and 2 money generated/imagined out of money lending against fractional reserves aka 'The money multiplier' )

Yes I know Marc. I read the article and it reminded me of the bubble and burst nature of our current economy. As strange as it may sound, I am hoping for another bubble, which some think is inevitable anyway, only this time I would like to see it in commodities.

Hopefully this false boost in value will coincide with my retirement, at which point I will sell and live happily ever after; or get run down by a bus the very next day! I'm not the luckiest person I know. The wife however is. She put my name in for a competition in one of the hi-fi magazines I used to buy and won me a set of 5 surround sound Ruark loudspeakers in rosewood. They were like furniture and sounded great!

I am grateful for your links and other posts, so do not look for maliciousness or other agenda in my replies. I simply babble a load of nonsense which should not be taken too seriously, and certainly not personally.

All the best,

John.

[Rothchild]

Fair enough I get you now, much like me being happy with inflation erroding the cost of my debt!

I think bankers are somewhat the wrong target if we think the problem is with fiat currency and FRB, these are political issues derived from flawed (or non-existent, more likely the case) idealogical perspectives /understandings.

The sort of stuff we should really be angry with bankers for is the sort of stuff that Goldman Sachs are the 'poster boy' for: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405 they are a powerful and dangerous alumni club, I wholly agree with the notion of 'the vampire squid' as an apt description of what these fu*kers are up to.

[Kember]

.


I am sure we do not need to concern ourselves with the popularity of spivs. Far more serious a point would be to dismantle the shackles of dependency and expectation whilst providing a route to collective and personal security. I appreciate governmentally decreed currency may be required, but personally I would like it to be backed by commodities; representative currency, if you prefer, be it 100% digital or otherwise.

All the best,

John.
John

Now there is a thought!

Best

P

[John R Leddy]

I don't listen very loud these days and I think my ears are now WELL past their best on hf sensitivity/threshold grounds, so apart from the odd tick and plop, I'm not troubled by vinyl noise floor unless I'm listening to headphones.

Remember my decades of trade history, which colours me forever badly in some people's eyes (the ones who regard all audio retailers as the scum of the earth rip-off merchants). I've had many Quad 33/303's pass through my hands, yet it wasn't until the mid 90's, long after they were discontinued, that I actually 'got' what these dinky little devices were on about - and also how good the grossly under-rated 77 integrated amp is. The 33 can be updated to an acceptable standard (it's still way behind in stock form though - not enough output capability) but the dear old 303 can sound absolutely lovely when used within its capabilities and it's gracious if pushed too hard too.

As for sources, if I'm in the 'office' tinkering around with clocks or summat, I use whatever is to hand witht e music on, which could be vinyl, CD or the old Shuttle as a music server, either playing wavs or FLACs via Foobar (J-River at £50? PAH!! :lol:). In the downstairs stereo, I haven't yet made up a thin stereo link from laptop (external USB DAC) to the preamp, although I'll give it a go sometime (B&O Powerlink cable used to make an excellent general purpose very thin interconnect I remember with acceptable sonics).

Please excuse the thread drift - back to sodding greedy b*stards - sorry, bankers......

Dave,

I don't find it necessary to have the volume at maniac levels anymore either. I sometimes wonder if I was just trying to compensate with loudness for poor sound quality. Of course it could be we are just a couple of old duffers... Nah! I do have an old pair of DT-901s kicking about, but after a mis-spent youth I am terrified of damaging my hearing and just listen to loudspeakers these days.

I was fortunate to be on the manufacturing side of the industry, so managed to avoid stroppy customers and insolent salesmen both. The public seem to have no idea how difficult they are to deal with, no matter how pleasant the salesman. Most think you are trying to con them because your professionalism really does not want you talking the same crap they have read in magazines. Likewise, the high fidelity industry is not immune from car salesmen-type characters, but fortunately once they understood I was manufacturing the products they were selling most, bar a couple of idiots, calmed down a returned to planet Earth.

I would not do that job for all the tea in China. Besides being completely unable to deal with the public, the industry is no different to any other, by which I mean, in order to make a healthy profit you are also expected to sell the biggest load of shite as well; gold fuses, hundred pound cables into tuppence ha'penny PCB-mounted connectors, and all things weird and wonderful on Planet Gong.

It really does sound like you are about to put together another Quad system. I listened to a 67 or 77 CD player when it first came out but did not purchase it. If I was to say I prefer an American sound would that make sense, or does it sound like magazine twaddle? I seem to have an awful habit of upsetting people by calling, what I describe as a British sound, thin and tinny. You would think they had designed and built, rather than simply purchased, the components I call cheap and nasty.

Some people get quite emotive over inanimate objects, as if they represent some higher meaning or understanding which should not be criticised. You would think it was blasphemy, the reactions of some people. Being the simpleton I am, I just see hi-fi as a way of reproducing recorded music, and being nothing special at all. I certainly do not promote objects of any sort as being representative of my personality or worth. I understand this is an error on my part.

I am also a fan of foobar2000. I have used a trial version of J-River but could not see any advantage in parting with money over using another application. MediaMonkey also works just as well as anything else. In fact come to think of it, so does Songbird, VLC, and Winamp; no need to pay for anything at all. That said, the industry depends on people who can hear differences between the oddest of things, and are willing to part with money for it.

I hope you remember to use special solder when manufacturing your new cables! My cables are generic, the type of thing used on studio mixing consoles, Neutrik NC3s with black and boring cable in between. I have no idea what they sound like as I have only ever managed to get music to come out of my loudspeakers. Maybe that means they are quiet, I do not know. Seem to do the job quite nicely though.

Please pretend there are smileys dotted throughout this post as I am laughing out loud at this end.

All the best,

John.

[John R Leddy]

Fair enough I get you now, much like me being happy with inflation erroding the cost of my debt!

I think bankers are somewhat the wrong target if we think the problem is with fiat currency and FRB, these are political issues derived from flawed (or non-existent, more likely the case) idealogical perspectives /understandings.

The sort of stuff we should really be angry with bankers for is the sort of stuff that Goldman Sachs are the 'poster boy' for: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405 they are a powerful and dangerous alumni club, I wholly agree with the notion of 'the vampire squid' as an apt description of what these fu*kers are up to.


Great link Marc.

Thanks,

John.