Spot the cartridge

[Oldpinkman]

I must be a glutton for punishment after my last 2 "quiz's" but I couldn't resist this. I'd never heard of it, but a bit of research shows it is well known on other forums. This is the cartridge A K was getting very excited about on my last visit, that he had found one last NOS in Germany, and wouldn't let me talk about until he had hoovered it up. With the vacuuming over,

drum roll...

Name that cartridge and its "unique" feature

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/20130723_134707_zps5135a3c4.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/20130723_134707_zps5135a3c4.jpg.html)

[Oldpinkman]

Oh for heavens sake. This has been described by not a few as the best cartridge ever made. Although its big brother had an even more exotic stylus/cantilever grown from a single diamond.
Here's another pic

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/20130723_134659_zps5cb6b086.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/20130723_134659_zps5cb6b086.jpg.html)

[Clive197]

It's a SONY.

[hifi_dave]

Is that pixie dust on the turntable..:scratch:

[StanleyB]

Is that pixie dust on the turntable..:scratch:
It's only a turntable if it has a platter.

[YNWaN]

Sony XL-55 or similar.

"best cartridge in the world" - not so sure about that.

[Beobloke]

It's a Sony XL-88 MC in half inch mounting format, rather than in its integrated headshell.

Personally, I still fancy an integrated headhsell XL-55 to go in my Sony PS-B80 but sadly they're fetching bigger money than I'm prepared to pay these days!

[Oldpinkman]

It's only a turntable if it has a platter.

I had to take the platter off because we were using the new funk and Arthur is still doing this ridiculous fan dance about it. I see I forgot to take the hub off though! I gather MartinT and Neil (Dalek Supreme) are due to be test-piloting quite soon (one of those flexible time measurements Arthur uses).

[Oldpinkman]

It's a Sony XL-88 MC in half inch mounting format, rather than in its integrated headshell.



Spot on! A Bloody Sony moving coil. Amazing sound. What's the - unique to Sony - feature?

[Oldpinkman]

Sony XL-55 or similar.

"best cartridge in the world" - not so sure about that.

XL-88. If it were an XL88D I could at least have claimed most expensive in its day :). Exceptional bit of kit none-the-less :D

[YNWaN]

Well, the D had a one piece diamond cantilever and stylus - but Koetsu now claim similar for one of their top models.

[hifi_dave]

Is the DV-17D one or two piece ?

[Oldpinkman]

Well, the D had a one piece diamond cantilever and stylus - but Koetsu now claim similar for one of their top models.

Yeah - true. I was thinking of the figure 8 coils - which was at least unique at the time but I am hopelessly behind with modern cartridges. I realised while we were listening (AK insisted I bring down a couple of favourite records) it was actually the first MC I have listened to in over 15 years. Wish I'd had a U205 to put up against it, and a better system to listen in (he is going to bring it up to me in September - understandably he won't lend it to me to play with). Although - the front end of the system was a surprise. Actually - we got to surprise each other. I thought it was bright and shrill to start with, but he is taking the piss with the amp and speakers he is using, so we plugged my PT FX3 1022 in as reference. I was amazed how good his set-up was (it was a more special tecchie than met the eye). He was amazed how good mine was (never having heard an FX3 on a suspended deck). And we both were left reflecting that for a £200 MM that 1022 doesn't disgrace itself at all. Then we adjourned for a beer :cool:

[DSJR]

Is the DV-17D one or two piece ?

Last I looked, I think it was two piece, but it was a long time ago though.....



More interesting to me is the Techie-hub... Is Arthur going to change the Funk platter to a two piece design, with an inner hub holding the rotor parts and the acrylic material then made up as the platter?

[Clive197]

I'm not familiar with Sony cartridges, except the cheap rubbish they put into music centre back in the day. I was certainly not aware that they made expensive Moving Coils. Is it possible they outsourced to one of the respected MC makers in Japan? It may surprise you to find that this used to be fairly common practise.
If I may ask, how much was it when new?

[Oldpinkman]

I'm not familiar with Sony cartridges, except the cheap rubbish they put into music centre back in the day. I was certainly not aware that they made expensive Moving Coils. Is it possible they outsourced to one of the respected MC makers in Japan? It may surprise you to find that this used to be fairly common practise.
If I may ask, how much was it when new?

In Germany - 7500DM. No - I think they made their own. A bit like that other surprise - technics. Now I realise on this SL1200 shrine that Technics has become a respectable proper hifi brand again, but when I was using U205's it was like driving a skoda. I am SOOO excited now my EPS310MC is in customs at Heathrow. Just needs to get its a*** in gear and get OUT of customs at Heathrow :doh:

[YNWaN]

Yes, two piece.

[Oldpinkman]

Well, the D had a one piece diamond cantilever and stylus - but Koetsu now claim similar for one of their top models.

Which model are Koetsu claiming for a onesie then?

[prestonchipfryer]

Koetsu Jade Moving Coil Cartridge.

John

[Oldpinkman]

Koetsu Jade Moving Coil Cartridge.

John

says boron on here http://www.needledoctor.com/Koetsu-Jade-Platinum-Phono-Cartridge :scratch:

[YNWaN]

The Bloodstone Platinum, the Blue Lace Onyx, but I believe you can have it fitted to any of them as a special order ($4K extra).

[Oldpinkman]

The Bloodstone Platinum, but I believe you can have it fitted to any of them as a special order.

Not as standard http://www.needledoctor.com/Koetsu-Bloodstone-Platinum-Phono-Cartridge :scratch:

[prestonchipfryer]

Says here one piece diamond -

http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?manufacturer=koetsu

[Oldpinkman]

Found one (bloodstone) claiming to have a diamond cantilever - but not a onesie specifically (although could be - no claims, photo not good enough to see). But, from the bad photo, it looks more like a 2 piece like the ruby cantilevers. Why is it so hard to get hard facts about cartridges these days - never mind a few performance graphs. It's not like its hard to measure a cartridge frequency response and a 1K and 10K square wave :steam:

[Oldpinkman]

Says here one piece diamond -

http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?manufacturer=koetsu
we crossed in the post :lol:

[YNWaN]

If you look at the Koetsu.com website they definitely state it is a one piece (or monocoque as they put it) construction and not two piece.


Another upgrade is the Diamond cantilever option. As the name suggests, the stylus/cantilever assembly is machined out of a solid piece of diamond. This 'monocoque' structure effectively removes the interface issues associated with regular stylus/cantilever assemblies.

[Oldpinkman]

352 views and nobody has asked me what it sounds like! :mental:

[YNWaN]

And, so far, you've posted 11 times on the thread and not said anything about its sound....

[Clive197]

352 views and nobody has asked me what it sounds like! :mental:

OK OK, What's it sound like?

[Oldpinkman]

And, so far, you've posted 11 times on the thread and not said anything about its sound....

Very good! :lol: But I like to be enigmatic. And actually I've been really naughty with that comment, because I alluded to my dissatisfaction with the reference system we were using and want to do it properly in September, and elsewhere noted I am not good at describing how kit sounds.

Will "flawless" do for a starter. All that MC detail and "sharpness" and delicacy but more so - and the bloody thing can track. Having tried it against the PT/FX3/1022 - which were "warmer" in a good, natural sort of way, but flatter and less spacious, and without that "real" sound to s guitar string plucked, we switched the FX3 onto the technics with the Sony and it really sang. Arthur phoned Germany and bought on the spot. I now wake up each morning with a google for "XL88". "sweet" doesn't really do it justice. Chilled might suggest something. Just fabulous midrange and treble detail and naturalness and space. I still wonder whether that FX3 isn't a bit subdued in the bass - and we explored an idea for another arm to address that, but don't go away with the idea this was bad in any way. Effortless, transparent, musical. I've said before - I hate describing these things.

But returning to my original fan-dance I'd really like to hear it in a proper system. Interestingly there was no hum on the FX3 with the XL88 even with the wick up full - it was only slight with the Goldring, so that aspect wasn't spoiling anything. But the Moving coil stage in the technics amp is hardly the last word - to say nothing of the poweramp and speakers.

Maybe the best cartridge I've heard. Just - seconds ago - had a text to say my gramophone needle from Arizona has cleared customs - so that will be an interesting comparison. And AK has dug out a spare Anni sub-chassis as a cheat to get my PT pimping project started. So September may be fun. :)

[YNWaN]

Thank you for that. However, a couple of issues strike me:

First, the Technics amp - I've never heard a Technics amp I was in any way impressed by and I wouldn't just say the MC stage could be bettered!

Secondly, you say that you haven't listened to a MC cartridge in many years and much of what you describe is how one might characterise the differences between MM and MC cartridges.

[Clive197]

Surely this cartridge should only be heard through an equivalent quality amp and speakers. The Technics amp was never going to do the cartridge justice.

[Oldpinkman]

Surely this cartridge should only be heard through an equivalent quality amp and speakers. The Technics amp was never going to do the cartridge justice.

Yeah - I'm with you really. Arthur was being a stubborn flat earther. He was right - you can hear the differences. What you can't properly appreciate is absolutely how good the experience can be. I "discovered" Arthurs point on another thread where I tried a cheap phono stage (Nad3020) against a quality phono stage (pip) and a technics SL1200 arm against an FX5 to decide "which should I get first"

The conclusion was either or both - but that you could hear the difference in the arms with both phono stages and the difference in the phono stages with both arms. So if you have a point of reference you can establish something

So - yes - much better with proper equipment - which is why I got arsey with him and he agreed to bring it chez moi.

But not so different from my Dad crying at the Bach double violin concerto - which was breathtakingly beautiful - but with a Goldring 1022 cartridge. Are we to say we couldn't hear how good the Integral amp and FX3 arm were because we were only using a Goldring 1022 cartridge?

Nope. But point taken :cool:

[Oldpinkman]

Thank you for that. However, a couple of issues strike me:

First, the Technics amp - I've never heard a Technics amp I was in any way impressed by and I wouldn't just say the MC stage could be bettered!

Secondly, you say that you haven't listened to a MC cartridge in many years and much of what you describe is how one might characterise the differences between MM and MC cartridges.

I know - which is why I admitted to being naughty in making the point. I was just surprised nobody asked. And I will do it properly in September. It was worse than that. In spite of threatening to make me try some speaker cables he wants to peddle for £1700 this was hooked up with old bell wire and adapters. But even so - it was making some pretty good noises. I may have overdone the scorn a bit - this was not crap.

Yes - I listened to a lot of MC's before that, and the MM U205 was very moving coil like in the same way the SS Pip is very valve like. So completely fair cop. "Must do better" accepted on this particular school report.

I'm still trying to buy one though :eyebrows:

[YNWaN]

I Googled it and they can still be bought new (new old stock) - from Germany I think - not cheap though. To be honest, I have a lot of sympathy with Arthur's 'flat earth' view and I would first get your turntable sorted, then your arm. In fact, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a cartridge until you have pretty much everything else in your system a lot more complete and resolved than it is now.

[Oldpinkman]

I Googled it and they can still be bought new (new old stock) - from Germany I think - not cheap though. To be honest, I have a lot of sympathy with Arthur's 'flat earth' view and I would first get your turntable sorted, then your arm. In fact, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a cartridge until you have pretty much everything else in your system a lot more complete and resolved than it is now.

Ah - I am going to have to be more precise with my language I can see. Arthurs "flat earth" was "we can listen to the cartridge on this technics system". My system has Ventrical speakers which are quite good enough (although the main item I will look at alternatives to consider when I have a better living room). By end September, with luck it will have an ultimate statement hot-rodded pink triangle (basically anniversary plus carbon fibre top-plate, new motor, new power supply, vector drive system and new platter material (with resultant suspension strengthening) FX3 (just maybe the new prototype FX -whatever comes next) and at an EPS310MC into a Pip (one day, but not end September, a Pip2) and the poweramp section of an Integral. That's pretty hot kit. It'll take an XL88.

I'm coming back from the grave with HiFi a bit, because for one reason or another I had stopped playing records, not realised they were making a comeback, and lost my precious U205 to a heavy-handed babysitter. Having renewed friendships with my old chums I'm suddenly on the trail of something close to what I was used to (only I think its going to be much better than I used to have)

Please, pretty please, can you give me the link for the XL88 - I've seen a few but they're all out of stock when you click on them :)

[Oldpinkman]

Wow Hm

Just had a look at your web-site. Love the Linn sub-chassis - especially the description of the improvements. Its ok to use the word "boing" in the context of a pressed steel one you know :lol: And £1200 looks stonking value. Arthur showed me a new Linn one - which was to be fair, also a beautifully made and finished bit of kit, which was pretty obviously a good bit better than the original - but £2600????

Nice one! :)

[YNWaN]

Thanks :).

I'm not actually called Hm - it's sort of an obscure joke, my actual name is Mark. My business partner (and friend) Andrew wrote (and created) the website - I only did the graphics (like the banner).

[Oldpinkman]

Thanks :).

I'm not actually called Hm - it's sort of an obscure joke, my actual name is Mark. My business partner (and friend) Andrew wrote (and created) the website - I only did the graphics (like the banner).

You're welcome. And I get accused of being cryptic! Er - did you miss my "pretty please" post for a web-link?

[YNWaN]

Well, when I say I only did the banner - I also designed the actual product, packaging and instructions too :).

No, I did see your request - am on my phone at the minute though and would rather use my computer to search. I didn't actually try to buy one though so I could be wrong and I didn't save the page either. May be able to find it again - will look.

[YNWaN]

Hmm.... Can't find it now - perhaps I imagined it :(.

[Oldpinkman]

Hmm.... Can't find it now - perhaps I imagined it :(.

No worries. Thanks for looking. I'll keep googling. Gordon, if you find one on an old Thorens at a vide grenier, they're crap - but I'll take it off your hands as a mate for a bottle of Jenlain :)