Rega carts

[ledzep]

Carbon, Bias-2, Elys-2, is there much difference between them is the price jump justifiable? Really be gonna be occasional use but still it to sound good

[DSJR]

I think hifi dave and I have lectured you enough on this, but here's my independant take on them anyway which is NOTHING to do with Dave's own opinion..

Carbon - same as/similar to the AT91 with plastic cantilever and conical tip. Mid bass to mid-midrange is sublime by any standards at 1.75g or so tracking weight and there's clean midrange and treble too with good-enough tracking. I'm about to receive a Dual 251E stylus (Jico sourced I think), which is a custom elliptical replacement with aluminium cantilever. I bought this one via William Thakker on fleabay because of the flip-down stylus guard, but cheaper versions can be got for £15 or so... More 'communicative' to me than the 'better' AT95E which everyone knows, but that's me for you!

Bias 2 - Low surface noise but used to sound thick and stodgy to me - an utterly safe cartridge to sell easily with a Rega deck. Super Bias is a tightened-up version but neither are what I'd call truthful. Great with Rega speakers and old Royd screamers :) All hand aligned as I remember and lovely quality diamonds.

Elys 2 - A bit clearer, carefully aligned elliptical tip and better aligned internally (I think the internals are actually slightly different as well to the Bias models), the third bolt is a good visual thing and helps alignment in a Rega deck, but I don't think it makes any difference sonically here to be honest. The latest ones have been tweaked for tauter performance, but my £150 cartridge interests are elsewhere in all honesty and my own old Elys reminds me of how much I disliked them at the time...

Exact - NOW you're talking. Still a little soft and warm balanced, but very much clearer and highly entertaining indeed in the right system :) There were a few issues a year or so ago, but bearing in mind the thirty year life of the model and general consistency over this time, this was a hiccup and Rega offer some of the best customer care in the business and usually take the customer's side if there's an issue.

Contrast the 'safe' balance of the Rega fixed-coil pickups with the truly wild sound of the Apheta (more Decca-like than Deccas :lol:) and I find it hard to understand why Rega haven't re-designed their cartridges in recednt times, or at least changed the soft plastic body compound they're made with. The bass of the Carbon is in a different league to my ears and the AT body isn't so different inside to the old Linn K9 I reckon ;)

[Graeme]

Why do you call the apheta's sound 'truly wild'?

[oldius]

I demo'd the Apheta once. It was possibly the worst cartridge I had heard in any price range.

I cannot believe that a company as able as Rega would produce something as awful as my experience with the cartridge was. I can only assume that the issue was down to system matching but, Dave's description of "wild" matches my own take on it.

[Graeme]

Thats surprising. What didnt you like about it?
I love mine, sounds amazing.
Fussy about loading though, and delicate!

[Andrew B]

I must say I like all the Regas, although I've never owned an Apheta. Wouldnt mind trying one though :)
Elys is a particular favourite MM of mine. I'm more of an MC fan,currently using a DL103r, but if I had to use an MM an Elys would be near the top of my list along with a P77. I must confess to being an "old school" Rega fan though. I've never heard a Rega product I've disliked, so my opinion should be seen in that context.

One last thing: I have heard a positive difference with using the third screw, but Rega carts don't like to be over tightened IMO. Maybe it depends on what tension you use. I know Rega were fussy about exact torque on these, but it's nice to experiment yourself and see what you prefer. I'm lazier nowadays though, but I used to spend ages experimenting. Must be the onset of old age :)

[hifi_dave]

Traditionally, Rega supplied only trained Rega dealers with the 3-point fix cartridges, because all 3 bolts should be at the correct/same tension. I have the Rega supplied torque driver for this purpose. Not sure how the cartridges can work as designed without the correct fitting..:scratch:

[Graeme]

I only use 2 point fixing (diy arm) but varying torque doesnt seem to have much effect on sound to me. I do tighten them to approximately the same torque the rega torque wrench applies though. Should have got me one of them.

The main issue with fitting apheta's is the ease of which you can break the internal wiring!

Only other rega cart ive heard in my system was the exact. Was ok but prefered my goldring (1022 if i remember right) or my dl103.

Its a bit different with a 100% diy system though as everything ends up built/tuned/voiced to suit each other.

Luckily, when i got my apheta it slotted into my system perfectly.

None of this is really helping the OP though (my fault for derailing i guess), the original question probably hinges on the deffinitions of 'occasional use', 'sound good' and what budget is considered reasonable.

[hifi_dave]

Strange but true - I've just finished a comparative demo of phono stages and cartridges. The customer bought an Apheta.

I've been selling them steadily since it's inception around 4 - 5 years ago and I know other dealers are now doing the same. It's also very easy to fit with it's open, square construction and 3 bolt fix for Rega arms. As to being able to break the internal wiring - you'd have to be pretty ham fisted to do this as the internals are protected by a clear plastic cover.

[Graeme]

Yes, a clear plastic cover that if you hold when you fit the cart you can easily break the internal wiring.

[DSJR]

I still have 'my' (cough) Rega torque driver for their cartridges and it was always usefull for other pickups with crushable plastic bodies too :)

The Elys and P77 do seem either bass heavy or slightly dull, depending on POV and I can WELL understand the Apheta not being liked if compared with one of these, if the former carts are favourites. The truth is I think, that NEITHER approaches are strictly accurate, but if like me, you believe or know vinyl to soften and 'nice up' the dynamics of the master a bit (s'cuse grammar), which I've heard in direct comparison, the Apheta and Decca kind of approach comes as a breath of fresh air, to me at any rate. The thing with ALL lively cartridges, is to use a phono stage with loads of clean headroom. Many phono stages, even modern ones it seems, have marginal headroom, and given a tick or splat from a record played with a cartridge with rising or peaky extreme treble output and fitted with a fine-line or similar advanced diamond profile, one could be asking for trouble.

The secret is NOT to use an Apheta with typical 'HiFi' speakers with peaked up tweeters, or phasey crossovers, as this is a sure headache inducer. Used with a proper speaker designed both objectively and with many hours of listening and fine tuning, and neither approach should give a problem, just a different 'flavour' of your perception of what's right with vinyl and little of what's wrong - IMO..

[DSJR]

The main issue with fitting apheta's is the ease of which you can break the internal wiring!



You mean you were sold an Apheta in a box without the dealer setting it up for you first? What IS the audio world coming to :lol:

[Graeme]

You mean you were sold an Apheta in a box without the dealer setting it up for you first? What IS the audio world coming to :lol:

I take it you guys havent read my intro post?

I was rega's high end turntable builder and turntable department supervisor and my wife made every apheta for 18 months and did all the repairs.

[DSJR]

Sorry, I'd forgotten :eek:

[hifi_dave]

You'd have to go some to deform that clear cover enough to touch any of the internals. Also, the delicate wires are connected to the inside of the pins, so are protected from touch.

I've had no problems at all, setting up and using various Apheta cartridges, unlike some other open designs, which are more fragile. Anyway, if buying an expensive cartridge, such as the Apheta, I would expect any/every dealer to fit it on the customer's turntable.

[DSJR]

As an ex -dealer, I avoided skeletal cartridges as much as possible, 'cos if anyone was going to break one, it'd be me! Didn't stop me selling a good few Sumiko BPS's in my day though - again, another slightly 'raw' and 'dynamic' sounding presentation :)

[hifi_dave]

The BPS is far more 'delicate' than the Apheta, as the BPS has nothing at all to protect the vulnerable wires. The Apheta has the clear perspex cover, so giving it a touch of care, you can fit it easily and quickly. No probs.

[Andrew B]

I agree. Nude carts are just too much of a risk for me. I've played with a few nude Denons (and broken one) only to find the DL103R with a damped body was better anyway.

I also agree that the Apheta should be a safer bet than a fully nude cart. Hope I get to put that to the test one day :)

[Graeme]

Yeah, safer than fully nude (i also have a fully nude dl103).
Fact still stands though that broken wiring from ham fisted handling is/was the most common failure in apheta's.

[hifi_dave]

Obviously, some people shouldn't be allowed to fit cartridges, even if they own them !!!

This is precisely why Rega dealers should fit their cartridges and check the turntable before the customer takes delivery. It was mandatory until a few years ago for this to be done but standards have slipped.

[Graeme]

I guess that depends.

If i wanted to buy a cartridge from whatever manufacturer, and they wouldnt let me buy one unless it was dealer fitted, i'd be extremely annoyed. I wouldnt buy it. I'd have to lug a 75kilo turntable to the dealers, spend an hour setting it up again, then explain to the dealer how my homemade tonearm works. Even if i had a standard TT i'd want to fit it myself, just so im 100% sure in my mind its fitted optimaly.
Obviously if i broke it i wouldnt be expecting to be able to return it LOL.
But, what can you do? Hard to treat it on a case by case basis, trying to judge the customers competance, so a blanket rule has to be made.

Obvious side to come down on is 'let the customer make his own choices/mistakes'. Its a free world, if someone wants to buy something they might break the first time they pick it up, thats up to them.
Obviously dealer fitment (free?) should be available if the customer wanted it.


So, dealer fitment should be free, highly recomended, but not mandatory!

Really sorry OP, i did sort of try and get you back OT but ive derailed it even more now:doh:

[hifi_dave]

Obviously, your situation is completely different to the majority of turntable owners out there and in your case or with anyone who really wanted to fit their cartridge, that's completely OK. However, the average man on the street doesn't want to set up a cartridge and/or hasn't the skill and tools. For the vast majority, a dealer fit and set up is invaluable.

Previously, I was specifically talking about Rega turntables and cartridges when Rega used to insist that their dealers set up and test everything which went out the door. In that way, we could be certain that all is well and working as it should. If the customer then wants to tinker, that's up to him.

[oldius]

Thats surprising. What didnt you like about it?
I love mine, sounds amazing.
Fussy about loading though, and delicate!

Graeme

The apheta was part of a dealer demo. The balance of the overall system was hideously forward and only brought back into normality when the apheta was changed.

I am a fan of Rega. I have had a P3, Brio, Planet, Elicit and a P9 so clearly I have nothing against the brand.

The cartridge change made such a difference and Dynavector are not known for overwhelming smoothness that may have altered the overall presentation to such a degree. The phono stage used was the Ios too so there should have been no mismatch.

I cannot believe that Rega would get it so wrong so I have to guess that the cart was either faulty, poorly set up or not loaded correctly.

[hifi_dave]

I don't believe Rega have got it wrong. The Rega is not on the 'warm' side of neutral but is clean, clear and dynamic. It certainly never sounds 'hideously forward' here or in any system I have used it with. Maybe, the system you heard was on the 'bright' side ?

[oldius]

Dave

I have not heard the Apheta in any other context. All that I can say is that the same system, substituting a Dynavector cartridge for the Apheta was significantly better.

I no longer have Rega in my main system so it's probable that I wouldn't purchase the Apheta though I would be interested in hearing it again in the context of a different system.

On this occasion, I suspect the dealer demonstration to be flawed but it definitely affected my view of the cartridge. Substituting that one component made the most significant difference I have heard a single component make in a demonstration barring a speaker change.

[Graeme]

Well if your ever over this way your welcome to hear it in my system, technics based TT, linear arm, all valve with some tannoys in TL cabs.