View Full Version : SL1210 upgradeitis
Clive197
21-07-2013, 11:49
Hi guys
2 weeks ago I sold a Linn LP12/Ittok LVIII and bought a Technics SL1210M5G and while I was a about it had the stock arm removed and replaced with a Origin Live Silver arm.
As I suffer from upgrade-itis I got a record puck and changed the stock rubber mat for a Inspire Deluxe Acri-Mat (the one with the slightly smaller cork underside used on the Monarch TT).
My question is simple, does anybody think it would be a good idea to cut the mains cable off just after the exit of the TT, attach a Male IEC so that I could use a homemade mains lead consisting of Supra LoRad 1.5 with a MK Toughplug on 1 end and a Wattgate on the other, which is what I use on my streamer, CD player and BluRay player.
I am not ready to attack my TT with screwdriver, pliers and soldering iron just yet to remove the transformer or add an external power supply.:rolleyes:
MikeMusic
22-07-2013, 07:23
Maybe
:)
Should be an improvement and it looks like no cost
My question is simple, does anybody think it would be a good idea to cut the mains cable off just after the exit of the TT, attach a Male IEC so that I could use a homemade mains lead consisting of Supra LoRad 1.5 with a MK Toughplug on 1 end and a Wattgate on the other, which is what I use on my streamer, CD player and BluRay player.
A good idea? Not in my opinion. (Although I am not implying that it is a bad idea...)
Although you said you are not ready to attempt a bigger modification of the table, I would just wait until you are ready.
Externalizing the PSU is a fantastic upgrade, with much more positive benefit that you will be expecting. If you choose to pursue it with a commercial mod or with DIY, the results are substantial and quite amazing.
A modification to the mains lead isn't going to make a change anywhere on the same level as a properly vetted PSU.
Wakefield Turntables
22-07-2013, 13:38
Dont bother adding a IEC into your deck. Its another component in the chain, it adds additional metal components which could be prone to EMI and RFI, stick to what you have. Trust me I've agonised over upgrades and tweeks for the 1210 for several years. You will get a far better upgrade by externalising your PSU.
Clive197
22-07-2013, 17:10
Thank you for that, I think you have successfully put me off the idea.
Next idea, a Mike New bearing. I was having trouble sourcing the oil for the original but have now solved that problem and brought the correct iso graded oil, so will try that when service required. I may get into changing the bearing but £495 sounds a lot for a small sound improvement. You lot may think otherwise.
Thank you for that, I think you have successfully put me off the idea.
Next idea, a Mike New bearing. I was having trouble sourcing the oil for the original but have now solved that problem and brought the correct iso graded oil, so will try that when service required. I may get into changing the bearing but £495 sounds a lot for a small sound improvement. You lot may think otherwise.
The general consensus on here re upgrade path is
Headshell>Acromat>External PSU>Feet>Arm>MN bearing.
I'm not expert but I think if you do finally go down the MN bearing road then you have to use a better external PSU to cope with the MN bearing so you really have to factor that in when you replace the internal PSU.
Personally speaking the biggest improvement for me, apart from a new cart,was the Achromat.
I've done the external PSU, Achromat, new cart and new phono stage.
I bought an additional Technics headshell to be able to change carts over easily and I also bought the Technics gauge to line up the cart in the headshell.
I had bought a basic Timestep PSU before buying the deck so only did that mod because I had the PSU, there was a difference in the sound and it was better but I don't know if the difference was worth the £150 I paid for the Timestep PSU over the internal PSU, really hard to say once the mod has been done as you can't go back unless you undo the mod.
Tony
The general consensus on here re upgrade path is
Headshell>Acromat>External PSU>Feet>Arm>MN bearing.
I've done the Headshell, Acromat, PSU, waiting for the Feet to come off backorder....
I've rewired the stock arm and it's fantastic. It's actually putting me off replacing the arm as it's such a good improvement. FWIW.
I've done the Headshell, Acromat, PSU, waiting for the Feet to come off backorder....
I've rewired the stock arm and it's fantastic. It's actually putting me off replacing the arm as it's such a good improvement. FWIW.
I really like the stock arm especially the VTA on the fly thing, must look at maybe rewiring the stock arm.
Tony
kininigin
22-07-2013, 18:09
I may get into changing the bearing but £495 sounds a lot for a small sound improvement. You lot may think otherwise.
What makes you think it will be a small sound improvement? It's anything but in my opinion!
prestonchipfryer
22-07-2013, 20:24
I may get into changing the bearing but £495 sounds a lot for a small sound improvement. You lot may think otherwise.
The MN bearing is a MUST upgrade as it's not a small improvement, it is a massive improvement in my experience.
Wakefield Turntables
22-07-2013, 20:35
The MN bearing is ONE of the biggest improvements, the biggest kick up the arse my system recieved was the Paul Hynes tripple power regulations. But if your not into that then get a MN bearing.
Thank you for that, I think you have successfully put me off the idea.
Next idea, a Mike New bearing. I was having trouble sourcing the oil for the original but have now solved that problem and brought the correct iso graded oil, so will try that when service required. I may get into changing the bearing but £495 sounds a lot for a small sound improvement. You lot may think otherwise.
Where did you get the figure of £495 from Clive? That's too high! Its £455 from the a UK authorized dealer, i.e me! It's not a small improvement either as before I agreed to fund 20 bearings with Mike himself I e-mailed a large number of my customers for feedback on just how good the bearing is, after all it's a large financial outlay if the bearing is at best "mediocre" as I have not heard one myself yet until later this week when the first one's arrive. Anyway no one had anything except praise for it with many saying the same thing "night + day" was the most popular phrase used.
I'm not expert but I think if you do finally go down the MN bearing road then you have to use a better external PSU to cope with the MN bearing so you really have to factor that in when you replace the internal PSU.
Why would you need a better PSU to cope with the MN bearing?
Why would you need a better PSU to cope with the MN bearing?
Think the MN bearing is heavier and needs more power, least that's my understanding.
I've also read that if your using a MM cart then there is no point in using/buying the more expensive PSUs if your 'just' upgrading to an external PSU but I might have got that wrong.
kininigin
23-07-2013, 07:46
Think the MN bearing is heavier and needs more power, least that's my understanding.
I've also read that if your using a MM cart then there is no point in using/buying the more expensive PSUs if your 'just' upgrading to an external PSU but I might have got that wrong.
I would respectfully say wrong on both accounts,i don't have time to go into details right now,work is calling!!
MikeMusic
23-07-2013, 07:52
The MN bearing is a MUST upgrade as it's not a small improvement, it is a massive improvement in my experience.
Took me so long to change over carefully and get it working I wasn't sure. Thought there was an improvement
It was also only one of the many improvements I made in a few days
Wakefield Turntables
23-07-2013, 08:05
Think the MN bearing is heavier and needs more power, least that's my understanding.
I've also read that if your using a MM cart then there is no point in using/buying the more expensive PSUs if your 'just' upgrading to an external PSU but I might have got that wrong.
Wrong on both accounts. A timestep psu will easily push round a mike new aluminium and copper platter and these weigh a bit. I'm not sure what your getting at with your second point as regardless of having a mm/mc cart your still going to a lot of crap from the psu entering into your pcb and other key components. Additionally not all psu are the same with some being significantly better than others. Why do you there is a general consensus of opinion with regards to certain products. We have been there and done that, hence our ability to give you advice, if you want it..:D
Frankyc2003
23-07-2013, 08:07
To put it in simple words IMHEx:
Stock SL12xx - Great Bass, veiled HF, limited Soundstage
adding a decent headshell (sumiko) - Lifting a bit of the veil
Acromat (or similar platter) - widening of the soundstage, the veil is almost gone
externalising PSU - Rhythmic accuracy, delineation of the bass, opening midrange
MN Bearing - Weight, precision, air and space around instruments
regulation - this one is less easy to put words on... a sense of getting phrase and timings right... (sorry a bit vague)
And the list goes on... I haven't even touched Paul Hynes products yet... The Arm is still stock (although rewired with cardas)...
The world is your oyster...
PS. You DON'T need a new PSU to run the MN bearing, it works fine with the stock PSU.
Clive197
23-07-2013, 09:16
Where did you get the figure of £495 from Clive? That's too high! Its £455 from the a UK authorized dealer, i.e me! It's not a small improvement either as before I agreed to fund 20 bearings with Mike himself I e-mailed a large number of my customers for feedback on just how good the bearing is, after all it's a large financial outlay if the bearing is at best "mediocre" as I have not heard one myself yet until later this week when the first one's arrive. Anyway no one had anything except praise for it with many saying the same thing "night + day" was the most popular phrase used.
Quite right, I had a senior moment and couldn't remember the price. SORRY.
As with most tweaks, people big them up, or poo-poo them and as I also have not heard a Technics with one installed I was being cautious. I probably will order one soon.
The reason I was being cautious was that some years ago a friend upgraded his Linn with a new Cirkus bearing and while I could hear the difference, I didn't think it was night and day and in fact did not like the sound. Base seemed less, mid-range was a little sweeter but a flatter sound.
Oh forgot, does the £455 incl. p&p?
Wakefield Turntables
23-07-2013, 09:28
Well for one thing linn is known to charge stupid prices for mediocre products. Secondly the 1210 is in a whole different league. As I mentioned the products we continuously mention have been assessed by lots of other people before you so a general consensus of opinion has been formulated. My stock advice for someone like yourself is to stop posting on here for a while and read the threads in the techiepedia sub forum. Virtually are you question we be answered and you can then read the experiences of others.
stupinder
23-07-2013, 11:07
Fitting the external PSU is a doddle! Even I did it in an hour or so :-)
Well happy to be corrected but I read the Techiepedia extensively and that was my understanding, from some of the posts relating to the PSU upgrade, both wrt the MN bearing and with MM carts.
Fitting the external PSU is a doddle! Even I did it in an hour or so :-)
Aye piece of p!ss to do but I am technical and used to soldering but not small components though.
Virtually are you question we be answered and you can then read the experiences of others.
Is this meant to be cryptic?
Oldpinkman
10-08-2013, 07:18
Took me so long to change over carefully and get it working I wasn't sure. Thought there was an improvement
It was also only one of the many improvements I made in a few days
This is not a sales thread, is it, so I can point out the Emporers new clothes again. The problem here, a bit like my Quad hard-wiring upgrade, is it is hard for the average punter to check back to what it sounded like before. The power of wishful thinking is enormous. That doesn't mean the MN bearing isnt any good. It just means, unlike, say a set of interconnects, you can't easily go back and forth between the old and the new. And like with Franks Jelco issue recently (Mido) you can easily change other things whilst swapping things around. What you need, is a stock techie and a stock techie that sound identical, and then change the bearing on one of them, and compare back and forth. Not many are in that position. I arranged it for a recent F5 v standard techie arm which I did for someone in Glasgow, but most folk don't have that facility.
So if you've just forked out £455 for a tiny component replacing an original that would have cost £20 on a TT you probably bought for £250, the mind takes over - a process known as cognative dissonance helps you find a HUGE improvement, and tells you what a clever chap you are. This forum is full of comments, whose worth is very low for me, of just that nature. Honest comments, possibly accurate comments, but comments as likely to derive from the need for the mind to justify its rationality. In Kenya, my Dad watched a man lie down and die because the witch-doctor told him he would. Believing a bearing makes a huge difference is small beer next to that. :sofa:
MikeMusic
10-08-2013, 08:47
This is not a sales thread, is it, so I can point out the Emperor's new clothes again.hie arm which I did for someone in Glasgow, but most folk don't have that facility.
So if you've just forked out £455 for a tiny component replacing an original that would have cost £20 on a TT you probably bought for £250, the mind takes over - a process known as cognitive dissonance helps you find a HUGE improvement, and tells you what a clever chap you are. This forum is full of comments, whose worth is very low for me, of just that nature. Honest comments, possibly accurate comments, but comments as likely to derive from the need for the mind to justify its rationality. In Kenya, my Dad watched a man lie down and die because the witch-doctor told him he would. Believing a bearing makes a huge difference is small beer next to that. :sofa:
Different angle for me.
1. I heard Martin T's system playing music I knew. It was so much better than my system I wondered what I needed to do to extract the music like that system. It was depressing to hear the huge gap
2. I found out what were the component parts of that system and both Martin and Marco's views - the 3 of us were together that day.
3. From their advice, using their ears from previous occasions (I'm lazy) I put together a list
4. Bought loads of bits
5. When I had quite a few I started installing, checking each time for my own interest
The bearing was a long winded affair as I was being super careful and not confident, but both Marco and Martin said that was the basis for everything else
6. A lot of parts and some £s later the system sounds fantastic
Was it the bearing ?
Can't say for sure.
Would I change it back to check ?
Unlikely I will have the time or want to go delving
Having delved into aspects of the mind, Tony Robbins playing a large part, I know I can turn a glass half empty into a nice drink of water and a visit back to the water jug. I can also take a huge success and see I/we can do it better. Outlook can be changed if you want to.
Some of the things I have seen and partly experienced practising Aikido don't seem real, but they happened.
For hifi I go neutral and listen.
I don't know the bearing had that much effect. Taken on it's own unlikely to be VFM
but
taking Martin at his word it is the base for all the other improvements to work even better
I have tried parts and they have gone back as either not enough, no difference or worse than existing.
Every now and again I try some old bits, if its easy and quite quick and boy am I happy with what I have
Oddly enough I recently read a New Scientist article about placebo and nocebo. Most interesting that people will die if they are told they will. Article around May 2009.
One very interesting story was of a guy who was told he was going to die, normal Western medicine and there was nothing that could be done.
He prepared to die and gradually got worse.
Before the end the doctors told him there had been a terrible mistake and he wasn't going to die.
He got better and left hospital
When upgrading I often go back to the old part, just in case.
Before upgrading mains leads of interconnects I take the old one out and shove it back in a few times to make sure it's not disturbance working for the new part.
If I cock up and have a wrong un I know it. I don't keep secrets from myself. I will even go public
Wakefield Turntables
10-08-2013, 09:53
Is this meant to be cryptic?
No my iPad cant spell properly.
Clive197
10-08-2013, 09:55
This is not a sales thread, is it, so I can point out the Emporers new clothes again. The problem here, a bit like my Quad hard-wiring upgrade, is it is hard for the average punter to check back to what it sounded like before. The power of wishful thinking is enormous. That doesn't mean the MN bearing isnt any good. It just means, unlike, say a set of interconnects, you can't easily go back and forth between the old and the new. And like with Franks Jelco issue recently (Mido) you can easily change other things whilst swapping things around. What you need, is a stock techie and a stock techie that sound identical, and then change the bearing on one of them, and compare back and forth. Not many are in that position. I arranged it for a recent F5 v standard techie arm which I did for someone in Glasgow, but most folk don't have that facility.
So if you've just forked out £455 for a tiny component replacing an original that would have cost £20 on a TT you probably bought for £250, the mind takes over - a process known as cognative dissonance helps you find a HUGE improvement, and tells you what a clever chap you are. This forum is full of comments, whose worth is very low for me, of just that nature. Honest comments, possibly accurate comments, but comments as likely to derive from the need for the mind to justify its rationality. In Kenya, my Dad watched a man lie down and die because the witch-doctor told him he would. Believing a bearing makes a huge difference is small beer next to that. :sofa:
I like your thought here. I have made three changes to my Techie. The arm, the mat and finally the feet. On the latter two the decision was made by comparing with and without the new item. The arm was different and purchased after a demo between two decks, one with stock arm, the other with the Origin Live arm using my cartridge for fairness.
I am at this time NOT going to wield a screwdriver or soldering iron for a bearing or power supply as I am not convinced of the benefits having no way to compare. My Techie sounds great, in fact the best I have ever achieved from vinyl. I have no Hum from stock power and my platter is silent.
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