FIREBOTTLE Phono Preamp [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Spur07

20-07-2013, 22:06

I wanted both a valve and a solid state phono amplifer for my vinyl set up so I asked forum member Alan (firebottle) if he’d build me one of his FIREBOTTLE preamp designs. I’ve had the amp for a couple of weeks now and this is just a short review. I'm currently waiting for my modified Cambridge 640 to return from Arkless and hope to do a more in depth comparison at a later date. Both units come in at a similar price.

SOURCE: Lenco L70 & Alphason Opal tonearm (A&R P77 with Jico SAS 1)

AMPLIFICATION: Harman Kardon A402 (PRE) into Quad II valve amplifiers

SPEAKERS: EMI 319

First thing to note, the amp is housed in a very stylish enclosure. It looks professional and its solidly built. I particularly liked the way the chassis splits into two halves making access to the innards quick and easy. You need only remove the top two screws on the front and back panels to remove the lid. Looking inside the build quality is excellent, the wiring neat and tidy. It reminds me of a Croft in its simplicity. Alan replaced the standard 47K resistor with a 100K so I could play around with both resistance and capacitance loading. He also fitted internal wire tails on the phono inputs. The amp uses Mullard valves. The line up is 2 x PCF80 (8A8) Triode/pentode. PCC189 (7ES8) double triode.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2v0g84z.jpg

Warm up is essential, there’s a dramatic improvement over the first half hour and beyond - in particular, imaging becomes more focused after extended use. Straight off the bat it surpasses all of my previous amps including the stock Cambridge 640. There’s shed loads of gain from this amp in my system and it goes loud effortlessly. The presentation is much more 'up front' across the left and right channels with greater transparency. This has been a problem I've found with previous 'entry level' phono amps which are just too muted in this area, but with the firebottle the balance between the centre, left and right channels, and all the nuances in between, is excellent.

For the purpose of this review I was using 160K/91pf loading which seems to give the flattest response on my spectrum analyzer. The treble is clear and smooth, but not overwhelming. Most notable, however, was the bass response, I was pleasantly surprised at how rich and deep it was. I’ve been listening to a lot of dance orientated music recently and, in particular, Faithless - New Arrivals, was a joy to spin.

The overall sound stage is big and spacious, the excellent mid range is key to the firebottle, it's uncongested and smooth. Andy Sheppard's 'Java Jive' was particularly impressive with powerful imaging and realistic instrumentation. This will make an interesting comparison with the Arkless Cambridge - from memory when I had the Arkless loaner unit in my system for a couple of days the centre channel soundstage dramatically shrunk due to the amps ruthless transparency and precision. It'll be interesting to discover how the two compare.

Overall I'm well pleased with this amp, I can't think you'd find a better value valve phono pre for the money. I'll update further when the modified Cambridge arrives.

Barry

21-07-2013, 00:42

Any chance of a photograph showing the internal construction? And, if I'm not being too prurient, how much did you pay for your bespoke phonostage? (You can PM me if you would prefer) I would be interested in a balanced circuit phonostage based on ECC83s, a circuit topology that Alan has already outlined for me.

Is the power supply housed in the same enclosure?

160K cartrdge loading when the input impedance is provided by a 100K resistor? How did you manage that, or was that a typo for 60K?

Firebottle

21-07-2013, 05:49

Tarzan

21-07-2013, 06:36

Thanks for the kind words Paul :thumbsup:

Just to be accurate, only the PCC189 in Pauls amp is a Mullard valve.

Barry, I'm building these amps for £230 plus p+p, they are powered from a 12V wall wart psu.

:cool:Alan

Hi Alan, is this the same design as the previous phono stage of yours doing the rounds a while back?:)

Firebottle

21-07-2013, 08:15

Very similar Andy, with a pentode - triode - triode line up. The power supply arrangement is different.
The middle stage triode is a different one and the RIAA network has been optimised to be much less affected by the pentode characteristics.

The pentode stage has also been tweaked as that was where the slight treble loss was in the prototype phono amp.

:cool:Alan

Spur07

21-07-2013, 15:19

Hi Barry,

for resistance in parallel, 100K + 160K = 62K. (R1 x R2 divided by R1 + R2)

The purpose of changing the standard 47K option is you can't go higher than your lowest value resistor - putting in place a 100K allows you to experiment above and below the 47K mark.

I'll post a pic of the insides when I get a moment.

Firebottle

25-07-2013, 12:11

Any chance of a photograph showing the internal construction?

Here is a photo of the chassis assembly with a couple of labels:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Firebottlechassis.jpg

:cool:Alan

StuN

15-08-2013, 14:06

I’ve been fortunate enough to have one of Alan’s Firebottle phono stages at home for an extended trial, so I thought I would add my comments to this thread.

It is a very professional looking item and comes with an external power supply. It is easy to connect and I too found it needs about 30 mins to get really warmed up. I’ve done lots of listening here and I’ve been trying out some different cartridges. My setup is: Cartridge -> Firebottle -> EAR V20 -> Yamaha NS1000Ms. All listening is using a Technics 1210 turntable (stock arm, but Cardas rewired and using KAB damper), so I can change cartridges more easily. My present phono is the excellent Gram Amp2 SE.

I began with my Denon 103r, into a Denon AU310 SUT (1:10 ratio), and then into the Firebottle. My Denon has a Soundsmith Level 1 cantilever and elliptical tip, and sits in an alloy body. The sound was big with lots of detail and a firm and extended bass. The 103r does not hold back in the lower register, but in this setup there is more detail and a crisper sound. There is plenty of gain, so for low-level listening I may need to find some 1:6 transformers!

I then tried a Stanton 681EEE, which is a medium output mm and was the reference cartridge for much of the US music industry. I have always had a love/hate relationship with the Stanton, finding it "polite and accurate but un-involving". Well, it's still polite, but much more interesting and involving. Good imaging and bags of detail and the bass has taken a big step forward.

The next step was to try my Grace F9E Ruby, which was just magic! I’ve had this cartridge since new, and I’ve never heard it sound so good. Smooth easy midrange with great detail and imaging (yes, even with the NS1000s !) I'm especially pleased with the bass - crisp and extended and it really works with the Yamahas.

Interestingly, the low level gain is ok with the mms (the output of the Grace is 3.5mv which is the same as the Stanton, though subjectively it sounds louder).

Overall, at this stage, I have nothing negative to say - it is all so effortless and clean. It has none of the solid state sound, but neither is remotely soft, warm and cuddly like some valve units I have heard. I've gone back to the Denon but before that I compared it directly against the Slee with the Stanton, Grace and then the Denon. I think the Slee is in front in the midband detail, but only by a whisker, but the Firebottle wins consistently in terms of imaging and the bass, which is like good snow, is deep and crisp and even…..!

I certainly consider it a big step up from my Gram Amp 2SE. Unfortunately I can't try it with my other pre-amps as they are all packed away, but as it would always be used with the V20, that is of no consequence.

So there it is so far. Suffice it to say, I’m now a delighted owner of a Firebottle Phono amp. Thanks Alan.

Firebottle

15-08-2013, 20:02

Suffice it to say, I’m now a delighted owner of a Firebottle Phono amp. Thanks Alan.

My pleasure Stuart, it's really very rewarding to me personally to be able to offer an improvement to AoS members enjoyment of the music :)

:cool:Alan

Spur07

17-09-2013, 07:52

Good to read somebody else's review Stuart, especially when you've got so many interesting carts to roll.

Funnily enough I wanted to add a few more thoughts myself. I run a second tonearm on my TT currently holding a Shure M3D cart - seen here, (Alphason tonearm not in shot)

http://i40.tinypic.com/2ex38jn.jpg

The M3D has a whole host of fans over on Lenco Heaven, and a few admirers here I believe. It's not necessarily audiophile, the top end is rolled off, but it has astonishing bass and huge sound stage. I've found mine struggles a little in the upper frequencies on old worn vinyl, but on new vinyl it can be quite wonderful - very clean, open with huge presence.

The other day I had the new Braids LP in my possession (Flourish/Perish) which was exhibiting a pressing fault so I checked it on my Bogen arm for a second opinion. The combination of the firebottle and the M3D was astonishing, I think there's perhaps some real synergy going on here on my system. The soundstage was the most holographic I've ever heard and, the combination is quite magical.

Macca

15-10-2013, 07:57

Had my first session with this pre pre amp last night. Don't want to say too much until I've run the gamut of my test discs but let me put it this way I wasn't in any hurry to switch it off and do something else.

Firebottle

20-10-2013, 11:30

:popcorn:

Macca

20-10-2013, 12:06

:popcorn:

What? ;)

Okay okay, I appreciate this is taking a long time but conditions need to be right for a good evaluation and I like to listen to what I feel like rather than necessarily playing stuff to test out kit.

I'm a bit stuck with making any direct comparisons as the last stand alone phonostage I owned was a Project way back when and my system, except speakers was totally different.

Here is where I am up to -

Positives - this doesn't sound like a stereotypical valve unit as top end is extended and clean. Neither does it sound clinical like a stereotypical solid state phono. There is definitely a hint of valve in the sound, call it euphony or sonority or whatever. Bass is not lean or weak neither is it overly warm or bloated, there does appear to be a small degree of mid bass punch that drives the beat along, this I like although I would not describe it as being entirely neutral it is the sort of balance that most people will want. I have to say I was impressed with the overall SQ from the first bar of the first record I played and that impression has stayed with me through multiple sessions, playing all sorts of material. One thing I like to look out for when demoing kit is what I describe as 'niggely' traits - that is a trait that whilst it may not initially be obvious, over time you get to notice and then you can't help noticing it from then on in. Once this happens you cannot live with that bit of kit any more. So far I have failed to identify any niggely traits with this phono stage. It makes vinyl very listenable but not because it makes the sound bland or over-smooth.

Negatives - I have started to think that this stage plus my Nagaoka MP50 is perhaps a bit too much of a good thing. Certainly the sound is rosier than a couple of far more expensive TT set ups I have heard recently, although it is significantly easier, and I have to say more pleasurable to listen to. I can imagine this stage being almost perfect with a more neutral cart like an Audio Technica for example. So I am at the moment still in two minds.

Gordon Steadman

20-10-2013, 12:10

What? ;)

Okay okay, I appreciate this is taking a long time but conditions need to be right for a good evaluation and I like to listen to what I feel like rather than necessarily playing stuff to test out kit.

I'm a bit stuck with making any direct comparisons as the last stand alone phonostage I owned was a Project way back when and my system, except speakers was totally different.

Here is where I am up to -

Positives - this doesn't sound like a stereotypical valve unit as top end is extended and clean. Neither does it sound clinical like a stereotypical solid state phono. There is definitely a hint of valve in the sound, call it euphony or sonority or whatever. Bass is not lean or weak neither is it overly warm or bloated, there does appear to be a small degree of mid bass punch that drives the beat along, this I like although I would not describe it as being entirely neutral it is the sort of balance that most people will want. I have to say I was impressed with the overall SQ from the first bar of the first record I played and that impression has stayed with me through multiple sessions, playing all sorts of material. One thing I like to look out for when demoing kit is what I describe as 'niggely' traits - that is a trait that whilst it may not initially be obvious, over time you get to notice and then you can't help noticing it from then on in. Once this happens you cannot live with that bit of kit any more. So far I have failed to identify any niggely traits with this phono stage. It makes vinyl very listenable but not because it makes the sound bland or over-smooth.

Negatives - I have started to think that this stage plus my Nagaoka MP50 is perhaps a bit too much of a good thing. Certainly the sound is rosier than a couple of far more expensive TT set ups I have heard recently, although it is significantly easier, and I have to say more pleasurable to listen to. I can imagine this stage being almost perfect with a more neutral cart like an Audio Technica for example. So I am at the moment still in two minds.

Why don't you try it with a more neutral cart then (assuming you have one to hand)?? That might help you make up your mind:)

Macca

20-10-2013, 12:20

Why don't you try it with a more neutral cart then (assuming you have one to hand)?? That might help you make up your mind:)

A good point. The problem is I am married to my MP50. I had an MP30 years ago which I loved, coveted the MP50 for many years and now I have one (with new MP500 stylus, which was not cheap). You see the bind I am in.

Truth be told I am 90% going to buy this as it's damn good (especially as the price is very reasonable) and I don't really have the inclination to try out half a dozen different head amps over 6 months and then pick the best. I'm an enthusiast not an audiophile :)

Firebottle

20-10-2013, 12:28

Martin, as you have listened to an awful lot more kit than I have I really appreciate your candour.

Negatives - I have started to think that this stage plus my Nagaoka MP50 is perhaps a bit too much of a good thing.

Can you have too much of a good thing? Don't be put of by the low price compared with others.
Do please continue to trial it, looking forward to further conclusions.

:cool: Alan

Macca

20-10-2013, 12:45

Me ? Put off by low price? You must be kidding. I am Mister cut rate, bankrupt stock, bargains on eBay, beg borrow or steal. Well maybe not steal. In any case I am firmly of the belief that most kit is way over-priced compared to the performance it offers and nothing bugs me more than comments like: 'How can it be as good as the X____, it's a tenth of the price?'. Also I'd be surprised if I have heard as much kit as a big chunk of the membership here have, and as I said when it comes to stand alone phono stages I have owned one previous example. However since I am in no-ones pocket, have no axes to grind and am just ploughing my own furrow, I can always be candid :)

Ali Tait

20-10-2013, 13:54

Is there a demo unit that can be borrowed?

Gordon Steadman

20-10-2013, 14:26

Is there a demo unit that can be borrowed?

Form an orderly queue:cool:

Come on Alan, get soldering!!!!!

Firebottle

20-10-2013, 14:34

Hi Ali,

The prototype (blue box) is with Haselsh1 at the moment, send him a pm.

The story behind the Firebottle phono is that I decided to make a valve phono stage and started by looking at what parts I had available in my stock box.
As I had a few ECF80s I designed a circuit to use these. The power supply is an amalgam of various bits also from the stock box, of which I have no spares. It is 240V ac powered.

As my vinyl front end was not up to scratch at the time, and liking the vibe on the forum for all things valve, I decided to offer this prototype for trial by any member on the forum that wanted to try a valve phono.
To start with the treble was a little rolled off but this has been corrected. This prototype has no capacitive loading on the input, 47K ohm for MM only.

Subsequently I developed the circuit to use slightly less well known valves, specifically to keep the cost down. The production version has 47K ohm, 80pF on the inputs and is powered from 12 - 15 V dc.

Any other queries just ask,

:cool: Alan

Oldpinkman

21-10-2013, 10:44

I have a moving coil one warming up nicely as we speak. Nobody tell anyone I have a valve amp in my system...;)

Marco

21-10-2013, 18:05

Aye, we'll make you a bottle-boy, yet! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Oldpinkman

22-10-2013, 15:22

What? ;)

Okay okay, I appreciate this is taking a long time but conditions need to be right for a good evaluation and I like to listen to what I feel like rather than necessarily playing stuff to test out kit.

I'm a bit stuck with making any direct comparisons as the last stand alone phonostage I owned was a Project way back when and my system, except speakers was totally different.

Here is where I am up to -

Positives - this doesn't sound like a stereotypical valve unit as top end is extended and clean. Neither does it sound clinical like a stereotypical solid state phono. There is definitely a hint of valve in the sound, call it euphony or sonority or whatever. Bass is not lean or weak neither is it overly warm or bloated, there does appear to be a small degree of mid bass punch that drives the beat along, this I like although I would not describe it as being entirely neutral it is the sort of balance that most people will want. I have to say I was impressed with the overall SQ from the first bar of the first record I played and that impression has stayed with me through multiple sessions, playing all sorts of material. One thing I like to look out for when demoing kit is what I describe as 'niggely' traits - that is a trait that whilst it may not initially be obvious, over time you get to notice and then you can't help noticing it from then on in. Once this happens you cannot live with that bit of kit any more. So far I have failed to identify any niggely traits with this phono stage. It makes vinyl very listenable but not because it makes the sound bland or over-smooth.

Negatives - I have started to think that this stage plus my Nagaoka MP50 is perhaps a bit too much of a good thing. Certainly the sound is rosier than a couple of far more expensive TT set ups I have heard recently, although it is significantly easier, and I have to say more pleasurable to listen to. I can imagine this stage being almost perfect with a more neutral cart like an Audio Technica for example. So I am at the moment still in two minds.

Martin

I don't know the MP50. What are its traits? What are you getting too much of?

Thanks

Richard

Gordon Steadman

22-10-2013, 16:14

Martin

I don't know the MP50. What are its traits? What are you getting too much of?

Thanks

Richard

I seem to remember that it was a bit 'warm' when I had mine but that was in direct comparison to the Technics. I have played my 205 through a Firebottle (I think it was a previous prototype, not the production version) and it is all plain neutral to my ears. I agree with all the positives that Martin described.

Oldpinkman

22-10-2013, 16:50

I tell you Gordon - that Alans a brave chap. If Arthur or Owen found out what he just did, the screams could be heard in your garden... :eyebrows:

Gordon Steadman

22-10-2013, 16:58

I tell you Gordon - that Alans a brave chap. If Arthur or Owen found out what he just did, the screams could be heard in your garden... :eyebrows:

Yikes, what did he just did??

Oldpinkman

22-10-2013, 17:00

You'll have to ask Alan

Strong men could weep...

Paid off though :eek:

Ali Tait

22-10-2013, 17:04

So what do you think of the stage Richard?

Firebottle

22-10-2013, 17:30

Yikes, what did he just do??

I hope you're all sitting down, Oldpinkman has done a modification to a valve amplifier :eek:

I asked Richard if he would make a small modification to the Firebottle MC, it has both lowered the noise and increased the gain on the MC input.
The power pack I have sent with it does not really have low enough noise to be used on MC although it is absolutely fine for MM use.

I'll let Richard tell you how he has found it to be.

Cheers, Alan

Oldpinkman

22-10-2013, 17:35

Ali

I've been feeding back to Alan. This was a first MC version he asked me to trial, and we have been learning as we go. We have fixed a couple of issues, and I'm pretty sure its "right" now. It is beautifully made, and I think extraordinary value at the price I believe he is building them for, but as I said to him, I am a bit out of touch and naieve. In my day, everyone had records, so all amplifiers had phono stages, and plenty had MC stages. The whole concept of a phono stage is a bit alien to me. It is hard for me to comment at the moment, without commenting in the context of the Pip which is the only other source I have. But the Pip, whilst obsolete now, was one of the most significant phono stages commercially produced. For all the comment on this forum about it being bettered, and it probably has been, it was a few leagues above "normal" and therefore where the Firebottle would fit in. I plan to try to get my hands on a Quad 44, Audiolab 8000 or similar for a more sensible comparison.

All that sounds like an excuse for damning with faint praise - but its really just a reality check. There are doubtless many fine amplifiers and stages out there I have never heard, but my home reference is still the very finest I have heard, and by quite a margin.

So - I roped in the Mrs and stepson as well, who auditioned sort of blind. In reality Sue pretty quickly worked out which was which because Firebottle was noisy to start with. We have fixed that now, and whilst its now not quite as quiet as Pip - at any sensible volume in any sensible auditioning environment, it is silent. But it wasn't - and so blew its cover on the blind auditions I was trying for. Both amps are quite distinctive, and Mrs S can pick em in a bar, and knows what she likes.

As I said to Alan, had i been in the situation I thought I was going to be in, of needing to find a new phono preamp, I am pretty sure if I had auditioned I would have bought the Firebottle. I am working from memory of the Quad 44, and I am bound to offend a few of its friends again saying this, but whilst neutral, and polite, and vice free, I'm sure I heard one yawn. You are never going to say that about the Firebottle. Whilst it has a slightly delicate even distant quality, it is ringing clear and articulate, and has a rich bass I would pretty much swear is missing from the Quad (or audiolab). It certainly presents detail well, and can distinguish the instruments being played, and is vice free.

As a "normal" device - rather than the sort of esoteric wealthy mans indulgence being discussed on another thread at the moment - as "real" hifi - it's as good as I can conceive of it getting. I'm a very lucky boy. I have better. But if I didn't, this would be likely to come home with me.

:cool:

Oldpinkman

22-10-2013, 17:45

I see Alan posted whilst I was drafting. The noise issue was firstly the power pack. It both hummed and whistled a bit (not whistle sort of bubbly hiss). I tried a better regulated supply, and in the end hooked up a golf trolley battery, which I am using at the moment, and which transformed it. However, in taking it out to solder the modification (authorised in the full confessed knowledge that I set fire to the Pip 2 Owen gave me last week), I realised the hum was also caused by having the case too close to the transformer on the pip. Even moving it 2 inches makes a huge difference. So I might try again. But ideally I need longer tonearm leads - blame Arthur - goodness only knows what he thought he was fitting on the F5 he gave me.

I'm called for kitchen duties, but the mod has helped too - more after dinner :cool:

Gordon Steadman

22-10-2013, 17:50

I hope you're all sitting down, Oldpinkman has done a modification to a valve amplifier :eek:

Ye gods,

There's bravery and then there is foolhardiness. I'll have to turn some sort of monthly award for devotion to duty over and above the demands of sanity.:doh:

Ali Tait

22-10-2013, 18:08

Thanks Richard, sounds promising..

Oldpinkman

22-10-2013, 18:47

Oh dear
Been led astray with the grape juice. The golf trolley battery helped a lot with the noise but the modification to the basic circuit (I believe converting the valve from pentode to triode mode, and removing noise from the 2nd grid - but I just shoved the soldering iron where I was told) - which i believe increased the gain from the first gain stage which are FET's for the MC amp has also helped in spades. The amp has noticeably more gain, and just seems to be trying less hard and is MUCH quieter as a result. It has gone from being "hobby" to "shop" and can do what it does well free from the noise issue. And its really lovely. As I noted to Alan, I hate describing these things, but it sparkles and resolves.

I deleted great swathes because I realised I was writing a "what Sue learned about the Pip" post, instead of a Firebottle post. Now we have the teething troubles behind us, I plan to just listen to Firebottle a bit. I also want to try to reference a "normal" mc stage, and try the moving magnet stage when I can ponce an FX3 off Arthur. (As I explained to Alan, I am reluctant to go swapping the Technics too often, cos I break things and it is somewhat unique). But let me know when you are ready Ali and I won't hang onto it unreasonably just to compare with other amps, when you can do that from the land of the haggis.

Meantime - the firebottle is a sweet, musical, detailed stage which is a pleasure to listen to. If I had to listen on the Firebottle for good, I would still be listening to vinyl. There are plenty of amps I couldn't say that for.

Thanks Alan

:cool:

Ali Tait

22-10-2013, 19:57

Cheers Richard, will do.

Oldpinkman

23-10-2013, 10:59

Valves and a PT??

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/valveplayer_zps9345efc6.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/valveplayer_zps9345efc6.jpg.html)

The OldPinkman Firebottle power supply upgrade (just as well the weather isn't good for golf!)

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/FBbattery_zps24f48ec8.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/FBbattery_zps24f48ec8.jpg.html)

What is that mysterious fiery glow? With no knowledge of the reason I asked him to listen to my hifi, and no awareness of the jargon, Harry my stepson picked The Police "Message in a Bottle" as his audition track!!!!

http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/Fierybottles_zps71c97a23.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/Fierybottles_zps71c97a23.jpg.html)

:)

Oldpinkman

28-10-2013, 12:14

Latest tweak has made MC properly viable with a wall wart (see the familiarity with which I use these terms now:)). Would hope to get a listen on Moving Magnet before it goes North, but now fit to travel! Well done Alan - lovely amplifier, and its been really interesting learning about it too :cool:

Macca

28-10-2013, 13:14

Alan if you are reading this you have a PM - Please get back to me and confirm the price as I will be going to the bank tomorrow and I want to pay you. If I don't do it tomorrow you will be looking at Christmas!

Firebottle

28-10-2013, 13:19

Tried to reply but your inbox is full.

Alan

Macca

28-10-2013, 13:23

oops - now sorted.

Oldpinkman

14-11-2013, 15:32

MC version now on its way north to Ali to enjoy.

Thanks for letting me hear it Alan

:cool:

Firebottle

14-11-2013, 16:50

OK Richard, thanks for letting me know.
Did you get to try it on MM?

:cool: Alan

Oldpinkman

14-11-2013, 17:16

Hi Alan

Afraid not - as my other post indicated Arthur got his knickers in a twist and we had a reduced agenda, so I only got to swap arms on Tuesday. Given Ali now has his vinyl and was chomping at the bit, it didn't seem fair to hang on to it. I had picked up another fan in George on MC though. And that was before the arm...

:)

Ali Tait

14-11-2013, 18:33

Looking forward to it..

killie99

16-11-2013, 15:31

can I ask where you get the case from? I need a case for a little project and that one looks like it'll do very nicely.

Firebottle

16-11-2013, 18:04

It`s a 1907B from http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1907B-Aluminum-amp-Enclosure-mini-amplifier-BOX-Case-DIY-/111064683068?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Amplifier_Parts&hash=item19dbf8923c

:cool: Alan

killie99

17-11-2013, 17:04

cheers!

brian2957

24-11-2013, 18:24

I have to say that I heard the FIREBOTTLE Phono Preamp at Ali Taits place today and it sounded very good indeed . I was well impressed . Unfortunately I'm all digital so don't have an analogue setup :( . If I did this unit would be top of my purchase list at this price point .

Oldpinkman

24-11-2013, 19:02

brian2957

24-11-2013, 19:05

Yup Richard , made me yearn for the olden days ( before CD players and such ) when analogue ruled :(

twotone

19-04-2014, 18:17

Just a quick post to say that I recently bought Paul's Firebottle amp which is the subject of this thread.

I've been listening to the amp for about five days now for hours at a time and this amp is really something special and a complete bargain.

Paul set the amp up to suit my current cart which is a Reca Reson MM and I'm hearing stuff in records that I've listened to for about forty years that I've never heard before. I'm getting a wee bit of sibilance on a couple of those records but I'm putting that down to the record and the cart revealing that in the recording.

Guitars sound fantastic BTW as does piano.

I'll post a more detailed review after the weekend.

Thanks Paul, and Alan.

Tony

Oh, BTW the soundstage is huge, the best I have ever had on my vinyl set up and also my speakers have been transformed, they've never sounded so good, they are JR149s.

Actually for reference I'm using a Technics SL1200 mk 2 with an external PSU, Achromat, Isonoes & techniboots, Micro Seiki MA-202 tonearm and Micro Seiki HL 202 headshell, Reson cart, Rega Brio-R and of course the Firebottle phono.

Firebottle

22-04-2014, 13:03

Spur07

23-04-2014, 08:28

Like I said to Tony I was sorry to let the Firebottle go but circumstances dictated the sale. I'm pretty sure I'll return to one of Alan's designs sometime in the future.

twotone

23-04-2014, 13:29

Here is the dual input MC/MM phono preamp:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Firebottle%20phono/P1030854.jpg

...and for those that wanted to know what the from panel looks like:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Firebottle%20phono/P1030859.jpg

:cool: Alan

Hi Alan, can you convert the MM amp to this version and if so what's the cost of the conversion and indeed the amp above?

Thanks

Tony

Firebottle

23-04-2014, 15:29

twotone

23-04-2014, 16:09

Hi Tony,
I can convert the MM to dual with the addition of the Jfet input board and extra sockets, plus a little tweaking of the eq.

The cost would be £85 inclusive of postage back to you.

The price of a new MC/MM phono is £290, I've had to increase it slightly due to rising costs :(

:cool: Alan

Thanks Alan, that's very reasonable, does the amp have be sent to France?

I've no intention of using a MC cart for the forseeable future but at £85 plus one way post it really is a no brainer.

I've posted your amp's details on the Wam where someone wants a MC phono stage but I was unsure of the cost however the guy's budget is £300 so I'll nip over there now and add the price info.

BTW, I've been sat here since 1pm listening to John Coltrane records through your phono stage and my goodness what a sound, just fantastic.

Tony

PS, Alan here's the thread on the wam if you want to make contact with the guy or post there.

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?105233-WTB-MC-Phono-Stage&p=1846303#post1846303

Audio Al

23-04-2014, 16:14

BTW, I've been sat here since 1pm listening to John Coltrane records through your phono stage and my goodness what a sound, just fantastic.

It may be the TT you have :eyebrows::D

twotone

23-04-2014, 16:24

It may be the TT you have :eyebrows::D

Could be Al, could be:cool:

mikeyb

23-04-2014, 22:16

Hi,

I've been thinking of adding a phono stage to my setup of Rega Brio-R amp, Rega RP3 TT fitted with a Goldring Eroica High Output MC Cartridge (this was a recent upgrade from a Rega Elys 2).

I find I need to really wind the Brio up to get any decent volume from it, it works out about half as quiet on a particular volume setting compared to using say my PC or my iPad in through my DAC to the amp.

Would a phono stage for this cartridge up the gain/volume and if so do I need a MM or a MC stage, I see the Firebottle can do either?

Any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated, I like the look of the Firebottle's simple clean looks so and with the positive comments here it has been added to my shortlist of stages.

Thanks,

Mike.

rubber duck

23-04-2014, 22:31

Is this a problem with just the Eroica? I expect its output is likely much lower than your Elys 2. The issue is really about noise rather than where the volume knob is at. Do you feel you're running out of gain or simply that you need to turn up the volume higher?

twotone

23-04-2014, 22:38

Hi Mike, I'm using the Firebottle with a Rega Brio-R and with my cart which is a Reca Reson MM I have the volume set at about 9 O clock or maybe ten O clock and that hasn't really changed from when I was using the on board phono stage of the Rega Brio-R with both the Reca cart and an SAE 1000LT HOMC.

Sounds to me that you have either very inefficient speakers or your cart isn't matched to the Brio-R or you have a faulty amp, my speakers, from memory are about 86db.

I've had that sort of problem before with a Goldring cart I bought here in the classifieds and playing it through my then amp's phono stage (not the Brio-R) I had to crank up the volume considerably however with an external phono stage the cart was fine so probably some mismatching going on between the two there.

Tony

PS, for a HOMC cart you can use a MM phono stage, I used the SAE with MM phono stages and it was fine volume wise but some people will use the MC phono stage for a HOMC cart I believe.

Personally if I were buying a new phono stage from Alan then it would be the MM/MC version, I bought my amp SH for a good bit less but by the time I send to be upgraded, if I do, then I will have paid the same as a new amp.

Hi,

I've been thinking of adding a phono stage to my setup of Rega Brio-R amp, Rega RP3 TT fitted with a Goldring Eroica High Output MC Cartridge (this was a recent upgrade from a Rega Elys 2).

I find I need to really wind the Brio up to get any decent volume from it, it works out about half as quiet on a particular volume setting compared to using say my PC or my iPad in through my DAC to the amp.

Would a phono stage for this cartridge up the gain/volume and if so do I need a MM or a MC stage, I see the Firebottle can do either?

Any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated, I like the look of the Firebottle's simple clean looks so and with the positive comments here it has been added to my shortlist of stages.

Thanks,

Mike.

mikeyb

24-04-2014, 09:12

Hi Mike, I'm using the Firebottle with a Rega Brio-R and with my cart which is a Reca Reson MM I have the volume set at about 9 O clock or maybe ten O clock and that hasn't really changed from when I was using the on board phono stage of the Rega Brio-R with both the Reca cart and an SAE 1000LT HOMC.

Sounds to me that you have either very inefficient speakers or your cart isn't matched to the Brio-R or you have a faulty amp, my speakers, from memory are about 86db.

I've had that sort of problem before with a Goldring cart I bought here in the classifieds and playing it through my then amp's phono stage (not the Brio-R) I had to crank up the volume considerably however with an external phono stage the cart was fine so probably some mismatching going on between the two there.

Tony

PS, for a HOMC cart you can use a MM phono stage, I used the SAE with MM phono stages and it was fine volume wise but some people will use the MC phono stage for a HOMC cart I believe.

Personally if I were buying a new phono stage from Alan then it would be the MM/MC version, I bought my amp SH for a good bit less but by the time I send to be upgraded, if I do, then I will have paid the same as a new amp.

Hi,

my set-up is very similar then as my speakers are 86db too ( Usher 718x ), your 9 o' clock is same as what I am getting with dac etc, however to get same volume from TT it needs about 12 -1 o' clock, and if I push the volume to 3 the power takes big jump and it really rocks but then the highs becoming a little harsh.

Thing is I don't want a stage to just give me the same gain, I'd rather my amp was back at 9 on the scale so that if I cranked it up to 12-1 then it would really rock if that makes sense, do I need a stage that increases the gain on the cartridge, or would I be better just ditching it for something else, ( only recently fitted by local shop ). When I saw someone asking about a Stage for an MC cartridge it led me here so sorry for taking thread off subject.

Mike.

twotone

24-04-2014, 10:05

Hi Mike, I've just checked my speakers and they're 89db (JR149s Mk1 second version).

Right now I'm listening to a record with the volume control at about the 8 oclock position which is just slightly down from the radio 2 fm broadcast that I was listening to earlier on this morning and at that volume for both the record and radio it's plenty loud enough for me for a morning's listening but turning the amp up to about 11 oclock or even 12 oclock then the music is just too loud, sounds great with both the TT and radio but I couldn't listen at the volume for long in the same room, I would maybe have the volume at that level if I was wandering about the house and doing other things like making a coffee in the back of the house or making lunch etc.

Sounds to me as though your cartridge is the problem but I would try to get a loan of another amp with an internal phono stage or a loan of an external phono stage first before ditching the cart to make sure that is where the problem lies, as I said before I had the exact same problem with another cartridge and amp which drove me nuts because if I forgot to turn the volume down on the amp after playing a record then switched to a CD the increase in volume was enough to take the windows out:doh:

When I did get an external phono stage with the Goldring cart then the volume was fine and back at reasonable levels on all inputs so switching between CD, tuner, TT etc there was no big difference in volume with any of them relative to the other but you could crank up which ever one you wanted to whatever volumes you wanted to listen at.

Alan does a loaner programme with his phono stage so might be an idea to try that.

Hope this helps.

Tony

Hi,

my set-up is very similar then as my speakers are 86db too ( Usher 718x ), your 9 o' clock is same as what I am getting with dac etc, however to get same volume from TT it needs about 12 -1 o' clock, and if I push the volume to 3 the power takes big jump and it really rocks but then the highs becoming a little harsh.

Thing is I don't want a stage to just give me the same gain, I'd rather my amp was back at 9 on the scale so that if I cranked it up to 12-1 then it would really rock if that makes sense, do I need a stage that increases the gain on the cartridge, or would I be better just ditching it for something else, ( only recently fitted by local shop ). When I saw someone asking about a Stage for an MC cartridge it led me here so sorry for taking thread off subject.

Mike.

mikeyb

24-04-2014, 10:34

Hi Mike, I've just checked my speakers and they're 89db (JR149s Mk1 second version).

Right now I'm listening to a record with the volume control at about the 8 oclock position which is just slightly down from the radio 2 fm broadcast that I was listening to earlier on this morning and at that volume for both the record and radio it's plenty loud enough for me for a morning's listening but turning the amp up to about 11 oclock or even 12 oclock then the music is just too loud, sounds great with both the TT and radio but I couldn't listen at the volume for long in the same room, I would maybe have the volume at that level if I was wandering about the house and doing other things like making a coffee in the back of the house or making lunch etc.

Sounds to me as though your cartridge is the problem but I would try to get a loan of another amp with an internal phono stage or a loan of an external phono stage first before ditching the cart to make sure that is where the problem lies, as I said before I had the exact same problem with another cartridge and amp which drove me nuts because if I forgot to turn the volume down on the amp after playing a record then switched to a CD the increase in volume was enough to take the windows out:doh:

When I did get an external phono stage with the Goldring cart then the volume was fine and back at reasonable levels on all inputs so switching between CD, tuner, TT etc there was no big difference in volume with any of them relative to the other but you could crank up which ever one you wanted to whatever volumes you wanted to listen at.

Alan does a loaner programme with his phono stage so might be an idea to try that.

Hope this helps.

Tony
Hi Tony,

this is exactly the info I was looking for, thanks very much, I like the sound from the Eroica ( much better than the Rega I had ), I think I need to get in touch with Alan for his advice as to settings on the Firebottle and see if it can up my gain, mind you that maybe cancels the MC part of my cart and might be better just trading it for a decent MM of similar quality/value and cutting out the separate phone stage all together.

Let you know how I get on.

Mike.

twotone

24-04-2014, 10:49

Hi Tony,

this is exactly the info I was looking for, thanks very much, I like the sound from the Eroica ( much better than the Rega I had ), I think I need to get in touch with Alan for his advice as to settings on the Firebottle and see if it can up my gain, mind you that maybe cancels the MC part of my cart and might be better just trading it for a decent MM of similar quality/value and cutting out the separate phone stage all together.

Let you know how I get on.

Mike.

Hi Mike, I'm not familiar with your cart but if it is a high output moving coil cart then there should be enough gain in the Brio-R's MM phono stage to be able to use it.

My SAE cart had an output of something like 2.5mv and it was fine through the Brio-R phono, the Reca has an output of 6mv and is also fine with the Brio R phono stage however I'm not entirely sure if these values are similar or the same as there seems to be different versions of these output readings, I've seen American figures quote that look similar (to me) but which are no where near the same output so if I were you I would try to find out what the cart's 'real' output is relative to your phono amp in the Brio-R.

Why not give Rega or Goldring call?

I'm sure that they would both be very helpful.

Good luck.

Tony

BTW, Mike might be a complete co-incidence but the cart I had the same problems with was also a Goldring but it was a MM cart, an IGC 900 I think.

topmetom

24-04-2014, 14:56

Hi,

Ive come from the link on wigwam! Im deciding on upgrading my project phono box, but at the moment only have mm, what is the demo firebottle?

Firebottle

24-04-2014, 16:08

Hi Phil,

I have got a demo MC/MM unit out with Ali Tait at the moment.
It is going to Paul Stewart (Musicosis) next, so if you would like to try it get in touch with Paul so you are next.

:cool: alan

topmetom

24-04-2014, 17:22

mikeyb

24-04-2014, 21:17

Hi,

Would it be possible to add myself to the list of those wanting to try the demo stage?

Thanks,

Mike.

topmetom

18-05-2014, 16:40

Whatever happened to this?

mikeyb

18-05-2014, 17:09

Whatever happened to this?

Hi,

no idea I've heard nothing and no longer inn the market for one now anyway ;)

Mike.

Ali Tait

18-05-2014, 17:11

It's currently with Paul Stewart, drop him a line if you'd like a demo.

PaulStewart

18-05-2014, 19:56

Whatever happened to this?

As you know Phil I have it and you are next, might help if you PM'd me an address to send it to :lol: I'll send it when I have finished a proper evaluation

ATB

Dunluce978

27-05-2014, 16:43

Just wondering how the firebottle would work with my Benz Micro Ace, a strange beast at 0.8 output?

Currently running through a Project Tube box at the MM setting and sounding Pretty good but i'm sure it could be better matched.

Firebottle

27-05-2014, 18:57

Hi Al,

0.8mV would be too low for the gain/noise floor of the MM input.
However if the MC input were used but the loading resistor altered to the usual 47K that would be ideal with plenty of gain and low noise.

Cheers,
Alan

CDB3

08-06-2014, 11:58

I am interested in a valve phono stage. I currently use an ANT Kora and wonder if anyone has done a comparison. I would also like to hear the Croft but then I would also need a set up transformer with my Dynavector DV20X. I would also like to hear any comparisons with the EAR 834. I don't know the price of the Firebottle so am uncertain what are reasonable comparisons to make.

As you can see, helpful advice is needed!

Thanks
Clive

Firebottle

08-06-2014, 13:16

CDB3

08-06-2014, 18:43

struth

08-06-2014, 20:31

I am looking forward to the arrival of mine....gonna try it first on my new project tt into the aikido clone, then move it, hopefully permanently onto the srm indoors . this will free up the Nak for studio duties. more power to your brain Alan. I am having a drink to you at this minute....buffalo juice. :eek:

struth

12-06-2014, 20:46

After 2 extended listening sessions on the end of my srm I have to say bravo to Alan for this phono stage. Sounds really goo; the bass is deep yet controlled, while keeping all the other frequencies in place. once a few people hear one I think the orders will flood in....probably my best purchase audio wise ever.

Firebottle

13-06-2014, 04:59

Sounds really goo; the bass is deep.........

Grant I do hope that was a typo:eyebrows:
Glad you like it,
Alan

Gazjam

13-06-2014, 07:40

struth

13-06-2014, 08:11

Goo I said, and Goo I meant:eyebrows: ...DOH!!! this keyboard. yes i meant GOOD

struth

13-06-2014, 08:12

Good to hear Grant,
have one on the way as well.

Thought my new Gyro deserved summit good. :)

Was it the MM or MM/MC one you got?

Gary, it the mm/mc version with an adaption for high mm as well.the gyro will love it

Gazjam

13-06-2014, 11:48

Goo I said, and Goo I meant:eyebrows: ...DOH!!! this keyboard. yes i meant GOOD

Goo on your keyboard mate?

*tut* :)

Dunluce978

13-06-2014, 23:22

Alan,

Many thanks for the updated info on the Firebottle. I'll have to give it some serious consideration but at the moment I have been smitten by a new pair of speakers on demo :doh:

nickjj

01-08-2014, 21:33

Dunluce978 - Al, I have further developments on the Firebottle phono front.

It is now in a mark 2 guise, the Firebottle 'plus'which can match any MC/high output MC/low output MM. The single input is tailored to match any cartridge via loading plugs attached to a second pair of rca phono sockets. The gain is switchable, either 48dB or 57dB to suit.
By taking a novel approach to the output stage (brainwave in the early hours) the Firebottle 'plus' has a more dynamic sound and will now drive any pre or power amp, with a recommended minimum load of 5Kohm.

Clive, the MM only (44dB gain) Firebottle 'plus' is £399 whilst the MC/MM Firebottle 'plus' is £499, plus p+p.

Hope this helps,
Alan

Hi Alan,

I'm interested in purchasing a Firebottle Plus. I have a DV17d3 LOMC cart - output is 0.3mV. I'm using it with a 1:20 SUT currently into a Rialto (MM) phonostage with 42dB gain. Volume is fine. I'd like the flexibibility of using it with other carts should I change in future - do you do an MC (LOMC) / MM version or is it just HOMC / MM switchable? What would be delivery time, cost, payment options??

Thanks,

Nick

Gazjam

02-08-2014, 12:03

Got my tonearm rewired and FINALLY setting up my Michell deck..
Have one of Alan's Firebottle Plus MM/MC phono stages, having an initial listen this weekend.

Expect it to be a big jump over the Yaquin I had in before.

Firebottle

10-11-2014, 10:05

When I developed the MC version of the phono stage I was a little disappointed with the level of gain achieved, at 57dB.

Most MC preamps offer in the 60+ region so it seemed a little low. Now with judicious choice of valve type I have a gain of 65dB :thumbsup:

To upgrade: the centre valve is swapped plus two resistors need to be soldered in.

If any owner has a real need for more gain on MC I can supply the upgrade kit FOC.

:cool: Alan

Gazjam

24-11-2014, 06:34

Hi Alan,

My Dynavector MC cart is very low output, think I might benefit from this?
I have to turn the volume up to 2 o clock to get some decent volume going!

I'll be opening up the Firebottle to do the other mods soon (catching up with forum life after a while away) so a good time maybe to boost the MC output too.
Happy to do mods in whatever order you think might lead to helpful information comparing to your two boxer.

Thanks Alan, fantastic Customer Service. :)

Gazjam

07-12-2014, 14:33

Ok, did the "gain mod" Alan speaks of above.
Quite easy to do if you know one end of a soldering iron from another and have a steady hand.

Apart from being louder for the same volume on the amp, there's a better sense of the music being "planted"...a sense of ease but with better dynamics?
Plucked strings, cymbal taps, snare drums all better defined and more physical sounding, better sense of moving air.
Without wanting to sound like a resteraunt critic :)...
"Beefier but with more delicacy" would describe it best.

Just the dab for my low output MC cartridge, very happy with the improvement in my system.

Thanks Alan, great customer service.