Cat5, 5e, 6, or 7?

[RichB]

Hey all,

I'm about to drill a wall to run a wired network connection for the laptop in the main system. I'm hoping to avoid the usual WiFi drop outs and after much research on the various computer audiophile sites I'm at a loss as to which type of cable I should be installing between router and laptop.

So, without starting an argument on audiophile network cables, what sort would you recommended, shielded or unshielded and any recommended brands to use which won't break the bank. I only need about 2m and my usual experimenting budget of around 30quid is what I'd be prepared to spend.

Anyone have experiences of different types in their system? I know logic says they shouldn't make a difference but often our ears tell us otherwise.

Rich

[Canetoad]

Have you tried homeplugs Rich? They use your household electrical wiring for data transfer. I have one next to my router upstairs and another to the Touch in the upstairs bedroom, one feeding my downstairs system and a fourth connecting my son's PS3. They work very well in my house and are pretty cheap these days. Saves drilling holes in the walls. :)

[Kember]

Hey all,

I'm about to drill a wall to run a wired network connection for the laptop in the main system. I'm hoping to avoid the usual WiFi drop outs and after much research on the various computer audiophile sites I'm at a loss as to which type of cable I should be installing between router and laptop.

So, without starting an argument on audiophile network cables, what sort would you recommended, shielded or unshielded and any recommended brands to use which won't break the bank. I only need about 2m and my usual experimenting budget of around 30quid is what I'd be prepared to spend.

Anyone have experiences of different types in their system? I know logic says they shouldn't make a difference but often our ears tell us otherwise.

Rich

Rich,

I've just done a flat all in Cat 6 - certified by the installer and a Dell managed switch. The CAT 6 on the advice of my network people who said anything else would be overkill for the life of a typical install. There is nothing much in the price (especially for a couple of metres) between the various Cat categories. I don't think there is much interference especially on a short run of any of the types and I think 6 & 7 are shielded anyway. I can't recall the spec for 5 & 5e.

Are you just burying a pre-terminated lead (and doing the fishhook thing) or doing the terminations yourself? If pre-terminated, get the highest rating you can afford and forget about it for fifteen years. FWIW, I don't believe that there will be much difference in audiophile terms between different types of network cable, but you might want to look into Neutrik terminations a la Meridian.

But any difference is fairly marginal, whatever people tell you. There will be a pinch point in your digital stream which slows the signal more than even Cat 5.

Peter

[Stratmangler]

Cat5e UTP is more than capable of running Gigabit network connections.
In all honesty I've only once encountered a site where this wasn't the case - in this particular instance there was an electrified railway line to the rear of the premises concerned, and I think it might well have been RF from the railway that caused the network speed issues.

I wouldn't use home plugs, as they modulate their signal over the mains.
Things are bad enough with the rubbish that comes off the switch mode power supplies in many household devices without adding a further amount of grunge.

A 2m patch lead shouldn't set you back more than a couple of quid :)

[NRG]

+1 to what Chris wrote. For a 2m run CAT5e is fine. If you are paranoid go with CAT6a to support 10GbE in the future, cost under £4...

[pjdowns]

Have you tried homeplugs Rich? They use your household electrical wiring for data transfer. I have one next to my router upstairs and another to the Touch in the upstairs bedroom, one feeding my downstairs system and a fourth connecting my son's PS3. They work very well in my house and are pretty cheap these days. Saves drilling holes in the walls. :)

+1 on this comment by Bernie. I use them for my Squeezebox Classic and they're extremely effective and cheap also.

I bought this because I wanted to avoid having to drill holes through the ceiling.

Paul.

[RichB]

Cheers for the advice guys. I've ruled out home plugs for the reasons mentioned but also because I only have the one socket near the system which I run a tacima mains conditioner on. The hole would be hidden inside a cupboard on one side and would be behind a computer desk in the other room. I guess if the cable ever needed to be removed I could just fill the hole and repaint.

So cat6 seems to be the consensus. I might do my own terminations as I do have a crimping tool for the job and this would keep the hole quite small. Now all I need is a decent bit of cable and the plugs. Maplins for these I'd imagine.

[Stratmangler]

Cheers for the advice guys. I've ruled out home plugs for the reasons mentioned but also because I only have the one socket near the system which I run a tacima mains conditioner on. The hole would be hidden inside a cupboard on one side and would be behind a computer desk in the other room. I guess if the cable ever needed to be removed I could just fill the hole and repaint.

So cat6 seems to be the consensus. I might do my own terminations as I do have a crimping tool for the job and this would keep the hole quite small. Now all I need is a decent bit of cable and the plugs. Maplins for these I'd imagine.

Maplin!!! :eek:
Jeez, you're really trying to spend your budget aren't you? :eyebrows:

Get 2 of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-Way-SIngle-LAN-RJ45-Gigabit-Ethernet-Network-Faceplate-Backbox-Cat-6-Module-/350497132318?pt=UK_Computing_Plugs_Jacks_Wall_Plat es&hash=item519b41cf1e , a bit of Cat6 UTP, and a couple of Cat6 patch leads http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Snagless-Shielded-Network-Cable-Cat5-Cat6-Ethernet-Patch-LAN-Lead-GIGABIT-LSZH-/140856710410?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item20cbb6d50a .

You'll need one of these too http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/idc-tool .

[Beechwoods]

I used to use Homeplugs and they were great, but some gear is really susceptible to the noise they generate. The affect is not subtle, particularly if your gear is near to the 'master' homeplug.

I ended up wiring my NAS to my router point to point, and went wireless with everything else. Much better, and faster to the NAS.

[Canetoad]

I have my Sky router separate from the rest of the network in my house. I use a gigabit distribution block hard wired to the router. My NAS is hard wired to the distribution block too, as is the master houseplug. I've never had a problem with this setup. It isolates the router from the house network and excludes it from having to be a distribution point.

The next house will be hard wired for data. Until then I'm completely happy with my household network setup. :)

[Figlet108]

I used Cat7e from this chap on ebay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/23ft-CAT-7-SSTP-ETHERNET-NETWORK-LAN-Cable-CAT-7e-/250738979642?pt=US_Ethernet_Cables_RJ_45_8P8C_&hash=item3a6135333a)

Seems like the highest level of shielding and not cost prohibitive in my opinion.
Remember it's the interference that *emanates* from the network cable that will effect the music, more than the impact of external interference coming into the cable.

[StanleyB]

I use several wireless networks at home, and one of them is dedicated to audio and printing duties. that network is not subjected to encryption. I tried both encrypted and unencrypted communication and found that encryption caused audio buffering in my system. I also use the faster wireless N standard for audio purposes.

[AlexM]

Cat 5e will be fine, is more 'bendy' and robust, and is easier and cheaper to terminate than either cat 6a or cat 7a. None of your equipment will be designed for cat 7 termination so I'm not sure if the conductor or cable screens are even connected?

Either way, stick with Cat 5e for domestic installations. It will sound identical and be easier and cheaper.

Cheers,
Alex

[Gazjam]

Have to respectfully disagree...

replaced my "standard" cat5e patch cable hooking up my server to the router behind my hifi rack (think..spahgetti junction hifi cable wise) with a length of cat7 I had from a previous customer install, and it improved the sound of my source to Dac.

It must be the shielding, not bizarre to think so given the amount of power and interconnect cable there and I agree with Jason, its not cost prohibitive and Cat7 offers the best shielding.

Shielding makes a difference hifi cable "hear the difference" wise.

My take?
Just fit the best (it doesn't cost much more) and forget about it. :)

[NRG]

Shielding only works if its actually connected. The benefits of cat7 only come to the fore when terminated and used with GG45 or TERA plugs and sockets. Used with an 8P8C connector/socket you wont realize the benefits. Cat6/Cat6a is more than enough for the distances in a domestic environment if paranoid.

[Figlet108]

Shielding only works if its actually connected...
Yep, agreed. And luckily between my (cheap) switch, cables and PC, everything is connected, so just like the U.S.S Enterptise facing the Klingons, the Shield is up and fully operational :)

Thing is, if you're going to bother installing cable into the infrastructure you may as well go for the best shielding, especially if it's not that much more expensive. After all, the switches and PC are more likely to be updated to accommodate the shielding before installed cable gets ripped out and replaced.

[NRG]

As long as it doesn't cause a ground loop issue...

[Stratmangler]

As long as it doesn't cause a ground loop issue...

You're correct, and it has fallen on deaf ears, which is why I have given up with such arguments.
The fact that ungrounded screened cables are more likely to pick up Radio Bulgaria is ignored because everyone is obsessed with the Audiophool numbers game - ooh, Cat7 has to be better than Cat6 cos it's one more ...

[Bigandbouncy]

Rich, don't buy any cable mate, i've got tonnes of the stuff you can come and cut some bits of the reels and practice to your heart's content - I've got cat 5 and 5e on a reel in black and some cat 6 in white unterminated that should wrap round your house three times! I've also got lots of different terminated cat 5.

You can have it for nowt next time you're over this way :-)

Dave

[RichB]

Hi all, now I'm even more confused. So cat7 has the most shielding but if my router and laptop aren't built for it I'll get ground loops?

I initially liked the idea of installing sockets but it seemed overkill for what is really a 2m connection from one room, where the router (a virgin 'super' hub) is, to the next room. We live in a bungalow. As the cable will largely be hidden behind the carcass of a built in cupboard there won't by any unsightly hole to see. I also figured sockets would require additional connections and isn't 'less is more' our philosophy when it comes to connections?

I'm intrigued by Stan's suggestion of running a separate wifi network for the audio. Presumably all this would require is another WiFi router attached to my hub. Notwithstanding I've been looking into these virgin hub things and they don't have a good press at all. Basically they are a fine modem but a rubbish router, v prone to dropouts and glitching. My friend also has one and his streaming audio always glitches, almost like a bad CD, we'd previously put it down to his old PC but I think the answer might be to put it into modem only mode and get a separate router until virgin get their s..t together.

So, would cat7 work in my set up is what I'd need to know. I didn't think the termination mattered as its all RJ45 right?

[RichB]

Hey Dave, thats brilliant. I'll do just that. Still curious about the differences between them all and keen to avoid any potential for ground loops. See my other thread about a bad laptop PSU. Anyway the main system is now in its spot so you'd be welcome for a listen.


Rich, don't buy any cable mate, i've got tonnes of the stuff you can come and cut some bits of the reels and practice to your heart's content - I've got cat 5 and 5e on a reel in black and some cat 6 in white unterminated that should wrap round your house three times! I've also got lots of different terminated cat 5.

You can have it for nowt next time you're over this way :-)

Dave

[Stratmangler]

Pop across to Consett, get 3m of Cat5e and chuck some RJ45 plugs on the end.

The stuff about ground loops & Radio Bulgaria are possibilities that may never rear their ugly heads.
I'd also like to see how you propose to stick RJ45 plugs onto Cat7 cable :eyebrows:

Here are the pinouts for a 568B patch lead (http://www.practicallynetworked.com/howto/040506diy_cables.htm) termination :)

[Figlet108]

Richard, the most likely reality is that whichever cable you choose will work just fine, and as well as any other. I also have the virgin super hub and it's shit - no question. I used to be with BT and their home hub 3 was quite excellent. I kept the bt HH3 and have it wired to the virgin and performing the wireless duties.

I still wouldn't use wireless in place of wired if I had the choice, it's just not robust enough for my liking.

With cat7 each twisted pair has an extra foil shielding. Now whether that makes any difference in any typical reality I don't know.
However it *will* work for you and at least in my case the shielding is active and there are no ground loops.
And given the low cost of different lengths from the ebay seller I posted I'm not sure why you would want to go to all the hassle of making up your own cable for the sake of a few metres.

Anyway, it's only a bit of cable, I wouldn't over-think it...

[Gazjam]

I always say go with the most "on paper" correct theory, unless its specifically been known to mess things up subjective listening wise...
Cat7 over a cat5 patch cable sounded better to me, not because its a higher number...but because it uhm, sounded better?
Cat7 has better shielding that Cat5 which may or may not be a factor dependant on what side of the cable debate you sit...

Jason, hook a "proper" router up to your POSHub and see how good your VM connection can be.
Hooked a Dlink Router up to mine (flashed with DD-WRT firmware) and I can now, like, properly port forward 'n stuff? :)

[NRG]

Hi all, now I'm even more confused. So cat7 has the most shielding but if my router and laptop aren't built for it I'll get ground loops?

As Jason says don't sweat it. you only have a 2m run so its not biggy...


I'm intrigued by Stan's suggestion of running a separate wifi network for the audio. Presumably all this would require is another WiFi router attached to my hub. Notwithstanding I've been looking into these virgin hub things and they don't have a good press at all. Basically they are a fine modem but a rubbish router, v prone to dropouts and glitching. My friend also has one and his streaming audio always glitches, almost like a bad CD, we'd previously put it down to his old PC but I think the answer might be to put it into modem only mode and get a separate router until virgin get their s..t together.

I run a separate wifi network for a couple of squeezeboxes, squeeze radio and an Apple TV, its easy to set up, use another router, disable DHCP on it. Hard set the IP of the router to a unique IP address so its different to your 'Main' router. Set the channel, SSID and WEP key different to your main router and cable the two together with a good patch cable. The Main router will act as the DHCP server and you'll have internet access on your music wifi network if needed.



So, would cat7 work in my set up is what I'd need to know. I didn't think the termination mattered as its all RJ45 right?

Yes it would work but if somebody is offering free CAT5e cable, use it! Picky point; it's 8P8C actually ;) RJ45 is the keyed modular telephone connector, 8P8C is un-keyed but everybody calls it RJ45 :D You can use a standard 8P8C connector with Cat7 but theres no point TBH.

[Tony Moore]

+1 for Cat5e.

When we bought our Victorian house a couple of years ago which needed a full rewire I used the opportunity to get the sparkies to pull in Cat5e solid UTP unshielded from 7 rooms back into the cupboard under the stairs. I did my own termination with the punchdown type Cat5e/6 plates. I have a 16 port gigabit switch and the Squeezebox server under the stairs and Squeezeboxes in various rooms. A couple of the runs were quite long (80+ metres) but the cat5e was fine. We're not in an electrically noisy area though as far as I'm aware.

I did use Homeplugs while we were renting as the house was being renovated but they definitely degraded the sound quality when attached near a Squeezebox.

I did investigate Cat6 at the time but any benefits were marginal at best (for my use) and as it turned out I needed it right then as the guys were pulling cables and cat5e was far easier to get hold of quickly.

[Alan]

It may all very likely sound the same, but there could be notional improvements using CAT7. Figlet has mentioned shielding, and Mark (ITEM) used to describe the terminations on CAT7 as being higher quality. I have no idea if any of that makes a difference, I installed a 12m run of CAT5e ages back and it has never, ever skipped.

If I were to change things again, I would maybe try CAT7 knowing that it ought to be 'the best', but I would do so knowing that many people have advised it cannot possibly make a difference over what I have now. It would only happen if the price difference were small. Mind you, lot's of people have said digital cables don't differ as well, so some experimentation could be interesting.

[NRG]

Cat7 improves upon Cat5 and 6 in a number of key areas beyond just shielding (although you can purchase Cat5 as STP) such as Near End CrossTalk (NEXT) and Power Sum NEXT. When coupled with TERA connectors (not 8P8C) the full bandwidth performance over distance can be achieved IE: 10Gbit/s @100m. If your link speed is the more typical 100Mbit/s @10m or even 1Gbit/s then apart from piece of mind its no better than Cat5e STP. However, If I where thinking about wiring a domestic property I would have one eye on future standards and use Cat6a or 7 as eventually 10GbE will find its way into consumer appliances and you may need the bandwidth as some point.