View Full Version : Old Vs New Speakers
A local dealer has a pair on Ruark Talisman II speakers on sale and I haven't seen them up close but they sent me a picture and they aren't too pretty, having undergone a botched colour stain but I suppose these things can always be fixed.
The part I'm curious about is the "Old Vs New" debate because my understanding is that the Ruarks were a class act and cost a lot of money new but the way they are talking on the phone I get the impression that the sound quality would compare poorly with a new pair of speakers like the Monitor Audio BX2s costing just £250.
Have things improved that much with hifi speakers over the last 15 years? I'm using these as two specific examples but I'm interested to hear opinions in general terms as well. I'm looking for speakers to go with a Leak 20 valve amp if that makes any difference.
Thanks
Ashley
Oldpinkman
27-06-2013, 13:34
This made me smile. On another thread about a cartridge I am interested in the advice was "with cartridges you have to listen". Even more so speakers.
To give you 2 answers, Gordon in France would tell you the VERY old Quad ESL57's are the perfect match for your amp, and don't even bother listening to modern speakers. His views are a touch the right of Gengis Kahn in this area, but there is a large extent to which I agree with him. If you like that sort of sound.
For myself, advising a friend in Hong Kong about getting a first record player, I started to research speakers and "found" the Kef LS50's which get impressive reviews. Since they were deemed "pretty" by SWMBO we went to audtion them, on the basis if they were anywhere close I would accept pretty speakers until we move to France. They were so disappointing that on walking into the living room to listen to a record, after returning from the dem, 30 seconds in Mrs S announced "ok we'd better keep the ugly speakers". Of course, thats not really a fair new v old. Ventricals were £1500 a pair new and the LS50's are about £700 a pair. But maybe it is, because the last time I saw a pair of ventricals for sale they were going for £600 ( a ridiculous steal)
They are not for your amp though! But you asked about old v new :)
julesd68
27-06-2013, 13:38
I've never heard a pair of Monitor Audios I liked but admittedly I haven't heard the recent ones. I would still be amazed if they could touch the Ruarks. How much does the dealer want for them?
I've never heard a pair of Monitor Audios I liked but admittedly I haven't heard the recent ones. I would still be amazed if they could touch the Ruarks. How much does the dealer want for them?
The dealer wants £225 for the Ruarks but I would almost certainly offer less, even if I'm blown away by the sound because of the botched DIY colour stain. Perhaps it's possible to simply sand down and wax but it's quite a bit of work and I'm not sure how the Ruarks are constructed.
The Monitor Audio BX2s are the current darlings with What HiFi and deemed to be the best in their class. They cost about £250 but I'd also need to spend some more on a set of speaker stands. I'm looking for the right longterm solution though and frankly not willing to spend huge sums upgrading every 6 months.
Something to bear in mind is that I'm in an average sized lounge and the speakers will need to be placed up close to a wall either side of the TV. I've just patched together this shot to show the layout after moving everything to fit in the new hi-fi.
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/lounge2.jpg
julesd68
27-06-2013, 14:25
If you are looking for a long-term solution I believe your lovely Stereo 20 deserves much better than a £250 MA speaker.
I would put your budget towards a quality used speaker. The Talismans are front ported so should work well against a wall. They seem to sell for £150-180 on ebay in good condition, so yes, you would want to pay way under £225 and then you've got the effort of restoring the cabs ...
If you are looking for a long-term solution I believe your lovely Stereo 20 deserves much better than a £250 MA speaker.
I would put your budget towards a quality used speaker. The Talismans are front ported so should work well against a wall. They seem to sell for £150-180 on ebay in good condition, so yes, you would want to pay way under £225 and then you've got the effort of restoring the cabs ...
The acid test will be to go and listen I suppose. I was just a little surprised by the way they discarded the Ruarks as merely "good for their day but things have moved on". The only advantage of buying from a dealer rather than eBay is that I get a chance to hear them first and verify everything is working. Lets face it, some eBay sellers are economic with the truth and the supplied photos are frequently not even the items being sold.
This comes up quite regularly;
I'd argue that speakers designed and made in the 1960's through to the 1980's for example lacked only more modern materials technology, and that's all that really held them back. Many were better designed than the plethora of under braced under damped MDF boxes manufactured today. Today its ALL about bottom line profit and manufacturing ease, and design compromises are made left right and centre to accommodate fashion (market placement and demographics) and profit.
Compromises were always made (just look at old Tannoy cabinets) but I'd argue that design ethos was probably purer to some extent.
Had there been the materials about to make decently insulated voice coils back in the day for example, power handling could and would have been higher. Some speakers just used Shellac for voice coil insulation.
Have things got "better" in the last 15 years, never mind the last 40 years? I doubt it.
julesd68
27-06-2013, 15:01
Just to clarify, I don't expect a dealer to do eBay prices and of course you can demo them first, but the price should take into account the time it will take to get the cabs looking right.
If you want a long-term solution you might want to see if you can hold out till you have a budget that will give you some better options, but nothing lost by seeing what those two speakers can do.
The only answer here is to see the speakers up close and have a listen but I'm quite prepared to walk away if I don't like them for any reason. I think I need to get down there tomorrow though just to satisfy my curiosity, since it will also help me decide just how much I'm willing to spend on a system. I also hear good things about the Royd Minstrels that appear quite frequently on eBay for similar money but this whole new vs old debate needs to be tested side by side.
For more than a year I've been writing a book, which is an awful lot of unpaid time spent living off savings but it should be released in a month or so. Once the money (hopefully) starts to come in I could probably get something better without a problem but I'd really like to rebuild the bank balance again before embarking on any extravagant expenses. One thought I actually had is to buy a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 9.1s with some used Partington Super Dreadnought stands. I can then sell the speakers later on with no real loss but the stands will be good enough for practically any upgrade.
Gordon Steadman
27-06-2013, 16:51
To give you 2 answers, Gordon in France would tell you the VERY old Quad ESL57's are the perfect match for your amp, and don't even bother listening to modern speakers. His views are a touch the right of Gengis Kahn in this area, but there is a large extent to which I agree with him. If you like that sort of sound.
Hah!! If you think I'm right of Gengis, you should talk to my wife:eyebrows:
Seriously though folks (yup its possible, some people do take me seriously apparently) I have listened to many speakers from Kef, Tannoy, Meridian, Celestion etc but although some of them have their strengths, I always return to the Quads as, together with the Leak, they present music as I recognise it.
I have had a pair of home builds in the main system this last week. Everyone that heard them thought they were great but....... I found myself listening to them not the music. This is not the idea - back the the 57s with some relief.
Until you listen, you can't make a proper decision for you.
Andrew B
27-06-2013, 17:16
My own opinion (so I apologise in advance if anyone takes offence: none intended) is that the current Monitor Audios are utterly terrible and can't even hold a candle to their own speakers of yesteryear, let alone others. I don't believe there has been any advance overall in speakers over the last 30 years let alone 15. The manufacturers, aided by the dealers and magazines have a vested interest in making us believe in this notion of progress in order to survive and thrive. Without people trading old for new, the market will shrink. All I see is ever more corners cut in build quality, together with increasingly high prices for near empty boxes. Like I said, my opinion and mine only. If anyone is happy to keep buying new, it matters not to me unless they want me to foot the bill:)
As for the Ruarks, I feel that the original Talismans are worth £100 or less in good nick. £150 for Talisman IIs would be fair in good condition. If they look a mess, I'd be looking to pay £100 or less. You will easily get another decent pair for £150 as long as you are patient. Personally, I'm not that enamoured with Ruark speakers but they are well built and are certainly good value second hand.
I hope at least some of what I've said is of use to you.
istari_knight
27-06-2013, 18:25
As I said elsewhere the Monitor Audio's are pure quality [IMO!] I use a pair myself on the end of a Denon micro system with good results... But, I wouldn't use them on the end of a Stereo 20. Look on eBay for something from Acoustic Research or Celestion, I feel that would make a far more balanced pairing long term.
PS. I agree with the fella above £225 is waaay too much for a dodgy pair of Talismans.... I didn't realise they wanted that much for them !
julesd68
27-06-2013, 18:34
If I had a Stereo 20 without a pair of speakers I would for sure be buying the Ditton 33's in the Classifieds for the princely sum of 75 quid ...
walpurgis
27-06-2013, 18:37
I recently tried a pair of Tannoy System 800 speakers on the end of a Leak Stereo 20 (not mine) in my listening room and the combination sounded marvellous. At 8 ohms and 94db sensitivity the Tannoys are a fine match to the Leak.
The System 800 may not be pretty (it's actually a professional nearfield monitor), but it's the best compact Tannoy speaker I've heard. They crop up on eBay periodically and tend to sell at around £200, well worth looking out for.
Audio Al
27-06-2013, 18:46
I purchased a pair of Ram 200 speakers and stands from the mid 1970 and would say I AM VERY HAPPY :D
They sound lovely , Build quality is 1970's QUALITY
Best £50 I ever spent on audio speakers :)
istari_knight
27-06-2013, 18:51
If I had a Stereo 20 without a pair of speakers I would for sure be buying the Ditton 33's in the Classifieds for the princely sum of 75 quid ...
I think you'll find they're already sold pending payment mate ;) :eyebrows:
They sound lovely , Build quality is 1970's QUALITY
Not like British Leyland then :lol:
As I said elsewhere the Monitor Audio's are pure quality [IMO!] I use a pair myself on the end of a Denon micro system with good results... But, I wouldn't use them on the end of a Stereo 20. Look on eBay for something from Acoustic Research or Celestion, I feel that would make a far more balanced pairing long term.
The shop in question claims they sell loads of BX2 speakers to owners of valve amps but having some experience in retail I know there is a tendency for sales people to push specific items of equipment often based on sales commissions and targets.
Here they are:
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/ruark-1.jpg http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/ruark-3.jpg
As a pure novice (still am) I picked up some Rogers LS4a speakers on ebay for about £25 with a blown tweeter and asked Wilmslow Audio for replacements. At about £50 I asked if it was worth doing and the fella said that the people at Rogers really knew how to design and build speakers and he doubted whether in 30 years time they would get calls to refurbish today's speakers. Probably lots of reasons for that and more to it but I doubt that the relevant technology has changed much in 30 years - implementations might have changed or developed but I reckon clever people were thinking just as hard about this stuff 30 or 40 years ago. What has changed over that time is the bottom line of profit and return on investment. By the way my Rogers sound superb to me in my albeit pretty modest and low cost system.
Sorry, more of a rumination on the thread title than specific advice for you quandary. I hope you find what suits you.
I saw a set of Rogers LS4a speakers on eBay the other day and they are about 30 miles from me. They seem to fetch a lot less than the LS3/5a which I gather has fairly legendary status but I did wonder if it might be a canny purchase. I keep hoping to find a discarded pair of Gale 401s outside the house but it hasn't happened yet.
A local dealer has a pair on Ruark Talisman II speakers on sale and I haven't seen them up close but they sent me a picture and they aren't too pretty, having undergone a botched colour stain but I suppose these things can always be fixed.
The part I'm curious about is the "Old Vs New" debate because my understanding is that the Ruarks were a class act and cost a lot of money new but the way they are talking on the phone I get the impression that the sound quality would compare poorly with a new pair of speakers like the Monitor Audio BX2s costing just £250.
Have things improved that much with hifi speakers over the last 15 years? I'm using these as two specific examples but I'm interested to hear opinions in general terms as well. I'm looking for speakers to go with a Leak 20 valve amp if that makes any difference.
Thanks
Ashley
If you are still considering the MA BX2's I would strongly recommend a lengthy demo session. I bought a pair about 12 months ago on the back of a shortish dealer demo and the Whathifi reviews.
Once I had them home I never really settled with them, I found they were a bit on the bright side even after they were run in. This may have been partly due to the partnering kit to be fair but they were put back in the box and sold at a reasonable loss.
I agree with others that you could do much better buying used for the same money or less and there's the bonus you won't lose much/anything if you don't like what you've bought.
If you are still considering the MA BX2's I would strongly recommend a lengthy demo session. I bought a pair about 12 months ago on the back of a shortish dealer demo and the Whathifi reviews.
I think an earlier post hit the nail on the head pointing out that the entire industry only continues to exist if they can convince people to part with cash every year or so for the newest equipment. Sure we have computer aided design now and perhaps savings can be made by moving production to China but when you allow for inflation it's hard to see how how a £250 speaker from 2013 will outperform a speaker that cost £700 20 years ago given that the basic physics of sound production remain the same.
James (istari_knight) has a pair of LS4a's for sale and I was hoping to see some comments about them from people that have heard more to compare them with. They knock spots off some Mission 732's that I have and a pair of Beovox S30's that I've tried on the same system (unsurprisingly I suppose). I've just built some Frugal Horns that have a very different sound that I like and probably need to tune (in terms of internal damping) and place to get at their full potential but I won't be selling my Rogers; fantastic vocal/guitar sound. You have a much better amp than me so you might want to do that more justice but I'm attached to mine.
These Rogers LS4a speakers sound interesting... I shall do some Google searches and perhaps James could tell us something about the ones he has on sale if he reads this. Apparently these can be run with just a 15 watt amp, which is ideal for the Leak, since even the Ruark recommends at least 25 watts.
Audioman
27-06-2013, 22:50
Realistically a speaker that retails for £250 today is not going to be any match for a 15-20 year old speaker selling for the same price. That would have cost £600+ when new. You would need to spend at least twice that today to get equivalent quality. Seeing how relatively expensive most hi-fi has become v inflation I would say considerably more. My advice is keep away from the dealer who thinks a new £250 MA is better as he is either dishonest or totally clueless.
istari_knight
28-06-2013, 00:47
These Rogers LS4a speakers sound interesting... I shall do some Google searches and perhaps James could tell us something about the ones he has on sale if he reads this. Apparently these can be run with just a 15 watt amp, which is ideal for the Leak, since even the Ruark recommends at least 25 watts.
I prefer the Monitor Audios... Better in every department - just a slightly annoying port "chuffing" on bass heavy tracks at high volume. The LS4a's are comprised of a very lightweight undamped cabinet with minimal wadding, a relatively slow and heavy bass driver & splashy metal dome tweeter... Don't even mention the crossover....
Not selling them very well am I ? Just trying to be honest though... I cant recommend them to you as I found them to be average.
I really think the best course of action is to go & listen to whatever speakers said dealer has preferably with a low output amp [I'm sure they'd have something remotely similar to yours ?] and get a feel for what works for you before committing.
Oldpinkman
28-06-2013, 05:38
Hah!! If you think I'm right of Gengis, you should talk to my wife:eyebrows:
Remind me your advice about wives genghis:lol:
Gordon Steadman
28-06-2013, 06:01
Remind me your advice about wives genghis:lol:
Ah well.........the thing about Genghis is that we forget all the positives!! To still be remembered, he must have been a bit special mustn't he? He united half of Asia in created an empire. OK he might have chopped off a few heads on the way but lets look at the positive as always.
Ronnie (my wife) does admittedly chop off the odd head or two (I'm a bit squeamish) but the rest is all positive. She has forthright views on most things:eyebrows: but I can't argue with her sense of priorities. We have lived together in three places now and in each case, she has insisted that the music room gets sorted first.
You wonder why I'm happy with Mrs Genghis?
Magna Audio
28-06-2013, 06:35
My experience of Talisman II's was a few years ago and comparing them with a pair of ProAC D25's (at that time £3K a pair new).
The Talismans were able to match the ProAc's on sound in all areas apart from bass extension. The ProAc' us a slightly larger 'woofer' cone at 6.5" and a bigger cab. So the Ruarks that were perhaps a £1K speaker punch well above their weight.
Both were auditioned in my home on a good clean sounding KT88 Push Pull amp that drove both speakers easily.
Now I have moved on a bit speaker wise, finding better sounded from large Tannoys and even larger horn speakers systems, but for the size and price I rate the Ruark's pretty highly.
jandl100
28-06-2013, 06:49
For low cost - and for a likely good match with a Leak Stereo 20 - I'd look out for some older Celestions or similar. Ditton 33 or 44. The old UL series were also very fine.
Perfect? No, of course not. But they make an excellent shot of getting the midrange right. Stunningly so, imo. That comes top in my book as long as the treble is not too splashy or dull, and they are usually OK there, too.
Quite a few on fleaBay at the moment.
They'll tide you over nicely until your book makes it to the best seller list. ;)
The Talismans were able to match the ProAc's on sound in all areas apart from bass extension. The ProAc' us a slightly larger 'woofer' cone at 6.5" and a bigger cab. So the Ruarks that were perhaps a £1K speaker punch well above their weight.
That sounds pretty encouraging Steve and echoes a few comments I've seen around the web. I won't be listening to heavy rock or hip hop either, so if the bass is a tad limited that isn't the end of the world. I've been looking with interest at the TDL RTL2 and I know some rate them highly but I've had less than enthusiastic feedback from a few owners, so I'd be wary about buying a pair untested from eBay.
jandl100
28-06-2013, 07:02
If you're handy with a soldering iron, the TDL RTLs are worth a go - replace some caps etc and a rather boring sound becomes a lot more interesting!
Cheers James, I'll handle the sales for you instead :lol: Really helpful comments though, and your honesty is admirable. I sort of like the splashy tweeter and they do provide a lot of bass (I added some loose damping inside the cabinet to get rid of a bit of a boom) but thinking about what you've said I suppose I find myself listening to tracks that suit the speaker (Nick Drake) and that can't be right! The other speakers that I compared them with was a pair of Celestion Ditton 110's and the Rogers are much better that those as well but the 110's probably fall well short of what was mentioned above by Jerry. I suppose I'm used to them like an old and loose but comfy pair of slippers ;)
The Frugal Horns are much different, a lot more 'tight' sounding and detailed driven with a small t-amp (hearing finger buzzes on Rodrigo y Gabriella for the first time and music coming from around the room) but they only have about 20 hours of listening on the drivers so far. The drivers cost about £50 a pair posted from China (the wood was £150 for a cut kit - 30kg worth!) so that got me thinking about implementations and profit margins. Even with bulk buys of those two elements once you add some veneer, factory and business overhead and a lot of marketing they would be quite pricey.
Anyway, I'm way off topic now and should start my own for this stuff. It looks like you're getting some great advice here Ash. Good luck!
istari_knight
28-06-2013, 10:32
Cheers James, I'll handle the sales for you instead :lol: Really helpful comments though, and your honesty is admirable. I sort of like the splashy tweeter and they do provide a lot of bass (I added some loose damping inside the cabinet to get rid of a bit of a boom) but thinking about what you've said I suppose I find myself listening to tracks that suit the speaker (Nick Drake) and that can't be right! The other speakers that I compared them with was a pair of Celestion Ditton 110's and the Rogers are much better that those as well but the 110's probably fall well short of what was mentioned above by Jerry. I suppose I'm used to them like an old and loose but comfy pair of slippers ;)
The Frugal Horns are much different, a lot more 'tight' sounding and detailed driven with a small t-amp (hearing finger buzzes on Rodrigo y Gabriella for the first time and music coming from around the room) but they only have about 20 hours of listening on the drivers so far. The drivers cost about £50 a pair posted from China (the wood was £150 for a cut kit - 30kg worth!) so that got me thinking about implementations and profit margins. Even with bulk buys of those two elements once you add some veneer, factory and business overhead and a lot of marketing they would be quite pricey.
Anyway, I'm way off topic now and should start my own for this stuff. It looks like you're getting some great advice here Ash. Good luck!
What amp are you using with the Rogers ? I only ask as I reckon they were designed with budget 80's models in mind which IIRC more often than not had lean bass & quite a bland overall sound which the Rogers would compliment with their seemingly boosted bass & treble.
Hi James, I have a Cambridge Audio A1 with the Rogers at the moment so that theory could very well be right! That would make a lot of sense - that and my mild(ish) high tone right ear deafness from a previous occupation :) I was thinking of getting a better amp (always wanted a Quad 303) but that might backfire! I've only had the Frugals running for a few days but I'm hearing a very different sound that I really like.
walpurgis
28-06-2013, 14:11
my mild(ish) high tone right ear deafness from a previous occupation :)
I was thinking of getting a better amp (always wanted a Quad 303) but that might backfire!
I've had exactly the same hearing problem since I was in my teens, which I suspect is why I've always been interested in high quality sound.
I can't see a problem with getting a Quad 303 (+ 33?). Good ones are not dear (yet) and they are simple and reasonably cheap to service and upgrade. They are probably the most reliable amplifier ever made.
Thanks Geoff, I was thinking of asking on here if there are any around - I've watched loads go on eBay in various states of distress but if I get one I'd like to think it's in decent nick. The 405-2 on sale at the moment has had me twitching a bit recently though! First 'preamp' for it would be my modded Caiman (Gazjam's old one) and see how it goes but it sounds like I might have to upgrade my speakers as well - James seems to really know his stuff and in all honesty my comparison speakers are fairly low grade (apart from the Frugals). Lots of food for thought. Cheers fellas.
Ash, sorry to hijack your thread!
walpurgis
28-06-2013, 15:37
Some may disagree, but I'd definitely sooner have a 405-2 than a 303. They do sound very different, the 303 sounds old fashioned and gentle in comparison, not that that's a criticism. It works just fine with the ESL 63 speakers.
I'm sure there are copious quantities of Quad power amps in AOS member collections. Have you considered the Quad 306? It has enough power for most people, it sounds decent, takes up little room and is cheap second hand.
istari_knight
28-06-2013, 16:04
306 is a good shout, Bomb proof they are.
I bought one years ago that had been in a flood, the whole case was covered in bubbled paint and rust... The insides were just as bad everything had white corrosion stuff like you get on car battery terminals.... Plugged her in & she worked perfectly :D
southall-1998
28-06-2013, 16:18
Agreed on the Quad 303....indeed a good sounding amp and very rugged. Will last and last!!!
Rare Bird
28-06-2013, 16:49
If i had a choice '303' everytime..
Ash, sorry to hijack your thread!
No worries, let it roll :)
Agreed on the Quad 303....indeed a good sounding amp and very rugged. Will last and last!!!
If a 303 is on the agenda (actually even if it isn't), might I suggest that you see if you can find a pair of B&W DM2s - another transmission line speaker - built like a tank but remarkably easy to drive. I know a 303 can do it because the person I bought them from demo'd them thus!
I really regret lending a pair to someone I have since lost touch with.
Look here - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bowers-and-Wilking-B-W-DM-2-speakers-superb-condition-/271228187634?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item3f2675b3f2
Peter
I recently bought a pair of JR149s to replace a pair of Proac Studio 140s and I don't miss the Proacs one little bit.
http://jr149.wordpress.com/
jandl100
29-06-2013, 05:31
Yep - those ol' JR speakers.
Here's a pic from my "JR Period" :drool:
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/692/oomy.jpg
JR150 in the foreground, JR149 at the back - oh, and some Thiel CS2.3.
I liked those JRs naked - the Techno look. :eyebrows:
Nice speakers, very nice indeed. Good driven by valves, too.
Yep - those ol' JR speakers.
Here's a pic from my "JR Period" :drool:
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/692/oomy.jpg
JR150 in the foreground, JR149 at the back - oh, and some Thiel CS2.3.
I liked those JRs naked - the Techno look. :eyebrows:
Nice speakers, very nice indeed. Good driven by valves, too.
Hi Jerry, was talking to Scott Nangle (dealer on AOS) yesterday and he said that once you listen to valves you never go back to SS.
Have to say listening to a CD on Scott's set up sounded great, at times I thought I was listening to vinyl, the set up was high efficiency speakers with valve amps driving them and a Marantz CDP, sounded really nice.
Tony
jandl100
29-06-2013, 08:23
Hi Jerry, was talking to Scott Nangle (dealer on AOS) yesterday and he said that once you listen to valves you never go back to SS.
Ha! - yes. Well. Some people do say that.
Personally I enjoy both valve and ss and happily switch back and forth between them!
ss for me at the moment. :)
I'm sure it will be valves again sometime soon. ;)
Come to think of it, my recently acquired Minimax phonostage is valve - so I'm on the way back already!
Come to think of it, my recently acquired Minimax phonostage is valve - so I'm on the way back already!
Got a link?:eyebrows:
BTW, what sort of valve power were you using with the JR149s?
I've read that they like a lot of power up em:eek:but I'm only using an A&R A60 and they sound great to me.
I'm quite excited because I leave in an hour to go pick up the Leak 20 amp and since we are on the subject of old vs new what sort of money would I need to spend on a new valve amp to obtain a better sound?
jandl100
29-06-2013, 08:54
Got a link?:eyebrows:
For a pic of the Minimax 'stage see post #806 on this page http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?1236-New-speakers-and-amps/page81
BTW, what sort of valve power were you using with the JR149s?
the valve monoblocks you can see in the photo - Chinese 40wpc OTLs. Lovely things - sadly, after I sold them both 220V transformers have gone up in smoke. Martin / Horace has them now and is investigating getting them repaired.
I've read that they like a lot of power up em:eek:but I'm only using an A&R A60 and they sound great to me.
Hmm - nah, I don't think they need gobs of power. A few 10s of watts is fine. They'd probably even sound fab on a t-amp, I'd imagine, I think that would suit them well actually - although I don't think I tried that when I had them.
I'm quite excited because I leave in an hour to go pick up the Leak 20 amp and since we are on the subject of old vs new what sort of money would I need to spend on a new valve amp to obtain a better sound?
How much did you pay for the Leak, if you don't mind me asking?
For a pic of the Minimax 'stage see post #806 on this page http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?1236-New-speakers-and-amps/page81
the valve monoblocks you can see in the photo - Chinese 40wpc OTLs. Lovely things - sadly, after I sold them both 220V transformers have gone up in smoke. Martin / Horace has them now and is investigating getting them repaired.
Hmm - nah, I don't think they need gobs of power. A few 10s of watts is fine. They'd probably even sound fab on a t-amp, I'd imagine, I think that would suit them well actually - although I don't think I tried that when I had them.
That Minimax looks really nice Jerry, they come up for sale regularly, must keep an eye out for one.
Shame about the amps though.
Thanks for the coments re the JRs that's reassuring as I like the sound from both the amp and the speakers.
Tony
PS, I've a Graham Slee phono amp on trial at the minute and noticed that with my usual cart the volume is much louder than it is the phono stage in the AR A 60 amp so I'm going to give that Goldring cart another try out.
I'll let you know how I get on with it.
How much did you pay for the Leak, if you don't mind me asking?
It has belonged to my father for the best part of 20 years and remained unused in storage for well over 10 years. I've had my eye on it for ages and only just convinced him to hand it over so I'm lucky enough to have this one for free. There is also an Arcam CD player, Creek tuner and a Denon casette deck that should be there. I just need to sort out some speakers.
Gordon Steadman
29-06-2013, 09:49
It has belonged to my father for the best part of 20 years and remained unused in storage for well over 10 years. I've had my eye on it for ages and only just convinced him to hand it over so I'm lucky enough to have this one for free. There is also an Arcam CD player, Creek tuner and a Denon casette deck that should be there. I just need to sort out some speakers.
and a pre-amp:)
Yes he has one but I vaguely remember it was just a small grey box with a volume control. It looked custom made but I'll find it soon enough.
It has belonged to my father for the best part of 20 years and remained unused in storage for well over 10 years. I've had my eye on it for ages and only just convinced him to hand it over so I'm lucky enough to have this one for free. There is also an Arcam CD player, Creek tuner and a Denon casette deck that should be there. I just need to sort out some speakers.
Well done:eek:
Get yourself a TT, the Leak will sound great with analogue I would have thought.
The Grand Wazoo
29-06-2013, 10:10
The Stereo 20 has the most glorious mid-range which is hard to match with any amp, at any price. Enjoy it.
If you can find a beefy solid state amp with the same gain, it's great fun to play around with bi-amping!
jandl100
29-06-2013, 10:19
... Shame about the amps though.
Heh!
Cheeky sod. ;)
Heh!
Cheeky sod. ;)
Sorry Jerry, I meant about them having problems with the transforms not that they were shite:lol: as I wouldn't know a good amp from a bad one.
jandl100
29-06-2013, 10:32
:doh: :lol:
Ha! - yes. Well. Some people do say that.
Personally I enjoy both valve and ss and happily switch back and forth between them!
ss for me at the moment. :)
I'm sure it will be valves again sometime soon. ;)
Come to think of it, my recently acquired Minimax phonostage is valve - so I'm on the way back already!
We should try my 50 Watt Beard on your MBLs Jerry. I'll bring it round when I come to pick up my pre.
TBH I haven't tried the Restek yet - I plugged the Tri-Vista into it and for some reason it refused to switch into DAC mode. It's been like that for about a week - until last night, when it knew Glasto was on, it magically started working again. Phew - I love that old MF for sonics and it had me scared yet again... moody bugger that it is.:D
OK I've had a chance to look at the gear now and take a few pictures. For years I was under the impression that everything was stored indoors because I was always told it was perfectly safe but it turns out it was left in a garage and covered in bubble wrap... Some of it doesn't look too bad but other items clearly haven't enjoyed the experience. I'll start to upload the images in the following posts and I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestion on the best way forward.
First up we have the Arcam CD player, which I remember produced a lovely sound with the Leak amp. I've powered it up with no problems and when I put a CD in there I found it could locate tracks without a problem but I haven't had a chance to hear it play yet. Mechanically I get the impression it is perfectly sound but seems to have suffered terribly from a cosmetic point of view and is covered in some sort of white stuff that I can't quite identify. In a few spots it looks like the black paint has actually come away.
As you can all see it's a mess to look at, though I have a background in photography, so I've lit it to deliberately show up the flaws as clearly as possible. It would be great if this can be cleaned up to look more presentable because I don't really want to pay out for a new one and despite the appearance I don't think it's done much work at all. I remember all this gear looking absolutely mint and it's beautifully built, so I almost cried when I saw it like this.
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8680.jpg
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8681.jpg
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8682.jpg
Next up there is a Denon cassette deck that was actually mine as a teenager. I don't think it was anything special when I bought and I can't see myself using it these days. It probably works but I haven't tried it.
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8683.jpg
This is a Creek tuner that was a budget tuner back in the day but of reasonable quality. For the most part it seems to be in very nice condition and the little panel popped out of place as my father was showing it to me. I am sure that could be fixed in 5 minutes with a screwdriver and small dab of glue in the right place. Again I haven't tried it but it's probably fine.
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8688.jpg
This is the pre-amp for the Leak, which as you can see seems to be some sort of custom made box unless somebody knows better but I remember it worked perfectly well and seems to have fared very well as far as I can see. The dial on the left moves smoothly for the volume and the one on right moves in clicks, which I assume is to select different inputs.
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8691.jpg
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8696.jpg
Haselsh1
29-06-2013, 17:24
I'd like to add if I may, that I don't agree that things have barely advanced in loudspeaker technology over the last few decades as I use a brand new pair of KEF Q500's and their Uni-Q driver doesn't even resemble the earlier ones that used to be fitted. This driver has progressed so much over the last few decades and is now a real treat to listen to.
And this is the venerable Leak 20 that clearly needs some TLC and a good clean up. It isn't shown here but I do have the power lead in good condition and some spare new valves. This was all completely rewired and upgraded when my father first bought it but storing it in the garage was obviously not the cleverest idea. I probably should have started a new thread because all of this is going slightly off topic :o
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8698.jpg
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8699.jpg
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8706.jpg
http://www.sunnymede.net/screenshots/Karyl_Raw_130629_V5F8708.jpg
Gordon Steadman
29-06-2013, 17:36
I've seen worse looking Leaks that still sound great. No doubt the experts amongst us will comment but the sooty burn marks under the resistor at the back (underneath) rather shows that there was a problem at some time. If possible, I reckon you should find someone to check it out. I'm not sure if its the right resistor that is there now. I assume the pre-amp is passive. I have always run mine with a passive and it sounds great.
The white on the Delta looks like water damage, hopefully just cosmetic.
It will be interesting to hear how you get on with it all once the speakers are sorted.
Rare Bird
29-06-2013, 17:39
Is that Blue interconnect Kimber 'KC-1'?
Is that Blue interconnect Kimber 'KC-1'?
I haven't got a clue at the moment but I'm pretty sure they were part of the "modernising" and rewiring that was done because they don't look original.
Actually I'm trying to track down the man who originally restored it and sold it to my father. He moonlighted as a piano tuner and was based here in Cornwall but all of this was years ago. If I can find him I guess he would know exactly what needs to be done.
Rare Bird
29-06-2013, 17:55
I was going by the Kimber directional Stickers, what it is is basically a sheilded 'PSB-J' you use on Say Moving Magnets, Valve amps etc anything that basically need a sheilded cable.
The white on the Delta looks like water damage, hopefully just cosmetic.
I think you are right about the water damage but I'm not sure what can be done to fix that cosmetically, though it might even clean up with something like isopropyl. The surface has an odd feel compared to most modern electrical items with a rough metal texture but it's remarkably solid and the way the tray opened and closed smoothly added to the feel of high quality construction.
I was going by the Kimber directional Stickers, what it is is basically a sheilded 'PSB-J' you use on Say Moving Magnets, Valve amps etc anything that basically need a sheilded cable.
I have just about zero knowledge of matters like this but happy to learn.
I've seen worse looking Leaks that still sound great. No doubt the experts amongst us will comment but the sooty burn marks under the resistor at the back (underneath) rather shows that there was a problem at some time. If possible, I reckon you should find someone to check it out. I'm not sure if its the right resistor that is there now. I assume the pre-amp is passive. I have always run mine with a passive and it sounds great.
The white on the Delta looks like water damage, hopefully just cosmetic.
It will be interesting to hear how you get on with it all once the speakers are sorted.
I'm certain this was all working fine when it was put away so it's possible that black burn mark occurred many years ago before it was rewired. I agree though that it's probably worth having it checked over.
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