View Full Version : Best MM Cartridges
Hi all,
what would you consider to be the very best MM cartridges available today?
RobbieGong
26-06-2013, 12:43
Hi all,
what would you consider to be the very best MM cartridges available today?
For fear of sounding repetative and boring :eek: :lol: ( I am known here for constantly bigging up this cart !) The Ortofon 2M Black is simple stunning and regarded by many as one of if not the best mm out there. In my experience it is exceptionally good and the only mm for me :)
potatoha
26-06-2013, 12:59
For fear of sounding repetative and boring :eek: :lol: ( I am known here for constantly bigging up this cart !) The Ortofon 2M Black is simple stunning and regarded by many as one of if not the best mm out there. In my experience it is exceptionally good and the only mm for me :)
How does 2M Black compare to similarly priced MC cartridges?
+1 for 2M Black
Goldring 1042 can still be had, is a lot less costly and is also very good, but 2M Black is better.
RobbieGong
26-06-2013, 13:08
How does 2M Black compare to similarly priced MC cartridges?
Hi John, I've never personally had an mc but have read tons about it just to see if others are as happy and excited by this cart as I am and everyrthing I've ever read says a huge yes - a legion of happy and excited folk. I've read a number of times that it presents like a decent mc, (whatever that means). i can only think they are refereing to it's skill with timbre, texture and detail as well as that sense of air. Check these customer reviews tab and you'll see what I mean and what others say - http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-2M-Black-Phono-Cartridge
AT150 MLX, this compares very favourably to my London Reference which is in a totally different price league. The AT needs care taking with setup, when it's right it sings, tracking at about 1.5gm works for me, go higher and the sound dies somewhat. Some say it's bass light, it is not at all like that.... It's around £200, this is a bargain.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC0150MLX.html
http://dagogo.com/audio-technica-at150mlx-dual-moving-magnet-cartridge-review
Ammonite Audio
26-06-2013, 15:20
I'd agree with others regarding the 2M Black. I regret selling mine, but an Audio Note IQ3 snapped up recently at a good price is really rather good and possibly even better than the 2M Black, but had I paid its new retail price I would fully expect it to be magic.
The OP's question is a tad generalised, though. Whether any MM cartridge sings or not depends on the tonearm, and most particularly the total capacitance loading, eg that of the phono cable plus whatever is in the phono amp. Get that loading wrong and even the best MM cartridges can sound pretty uninspiring.
The phono stage itself is pretty important to the sound of a good MM. Don't dismiss the idea of a high output MC either.
For sure MM loading (resistive and capacitive) is important and the synergy with the arm and phono stage are key too. Overall good MM matching is a little trickier than MC matching. Listen to an MM with a cantilever and tip of the quality you'd find on a good MC, you may find MMs can sound better than typical opinion would suggest.
Here's a view on the 2M Black vs AT150MLX. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/75/751827.html
julesd68
26-06-2013, 16:21
I'm delighted with my Garrott P77i which I consider a small step up from my previous cart, the superb Nagaoka MP-50. If funds permitted I would certainly like to try one of the pricier Garrotts.
daytona600
26-06-2013, 19:54
use a cartridgeman LE myself , costs more than most MCs
southall-1998
26-06-2013, 20:16
The Shure M3D is a nice cart.
The Grand Wazoo
26-06-2013, 21:40
....what would you consider to be the very best MM cartridges available today?
Just to clarify a little, would it be correct to say that you're interested in cartridges which don't have a low output (requiring an extra gain stage in the phono amp) rather than purely moving magnets?
If so, there are lots of good suggestions above but don't forget the Deaccas.
walpurgis
26-06-2013, 21:47
The Shure M3D is a nice cart.
Cor, nice for what Shane? I've had a few of the sad old things. A well sharpened pencil would probably track as well and put out less offensive noises.
(that of course will have the M3D fans up in arms)
Just to clarify a little, would it be correct to say that you're interested in cartridges which don't have a low output (requiring an extra gain stage in the phono amp) rather than purely moving magnets?
If so, there are lots of good suggestions above but don't forget the Deaccas.
Yes you are correct I only have a MM phono stage so could at a pinch try a high output MC but I am really only interested in MM or maybe MI (Decca) type. My post was just to gain opinions and views currently of MM cartridges AOS users found particularly good. I am actually using a 2M black at the moment which I have found superb.
trio leo
28-06-2013, 09:22
Back in the 80's the Nagaoka MP50 was regarded as one of the best MM cartridge, I wonder if they have just added a 0 to the title and the price, it's now the MP500, I suspect it's very good, but a bit pricey to just give it a try, anyone got one to give the OP an opinion?
enjoy your music
regards Al
Beobloke
28-06-2013, 12:03
Another vote for the 2M Black here - it's a simply astonishing MM in my opinion.
Cor, nice for what Shane? I've had a few of the sad old things. A well sharpened pencil would probably track as well and put out less offensive noises.
(that of course will have the M3D fans up in arms)
:wowzer:
*runs and hides behind something explosion-proof before Marco sees this*
I have a 2M Black and like it. Also have MP500 which is warmer and great. Mostly, though, I listen to a denon mono DL102 and a GEVRII mono and 78 rpm cartridge. I dont listen much to stereo, but when I do, I choose the Ortofon 2M Black or the Nagaoka MP500. There are some good high output MC's as well, such as the Denon DL110 and 160 and the SAE1000E. An the Shure M44 is pretty good and good value. Good luck
My faves include the Goldring 1042, the 2m Black and the Shure V15III (dependant upon arm used and stylus employed).
However, if your arm can take the energy which means high-ish mass, or mass loading applied to the headshell, then the London Decca carts are excellent and a great alternative to expensive MC set ups.
My faves include the Goldring 1042, the 2m Black and the Shure V15III (dependant upon arm used and stylus employed).
However, if your arm can take the energy which means high-ish mass, or mass loading applied to the headshell, then the London Decca carts are excellent and a great alternative to expensive MC set ups.
On this, my Reson Reca is a noticable step up from the Goldring 1042 upon which it is based bringing a larger degree of refinement & treble clarity to the mix.
I was told at the weekend that the 2M Black is now £600 or so :( Total insanity IMO... You can buy the earlier 540 (now Vinyl Master) and Super OM40 for under half this figure and I speak from experience of these that they are very good indeed.
julesd68
01-07-2013, 19:23
If anyone wants a 2M Black, I notice 2juki has one for £339 with free shipping on ebay. Don't think it will be there for long.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-2M-Black-MM-cartridge-made-in-Denmark-/271228968757?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item3f26819f35
The AT150 MLX at £200ish will compare well to the 2M Black, given that it's not outclassed by my London Reference! I don't know why this AT is not more loved, it's a steal.
hifi_dave
03-07-2013, 09:36
I was told at the weekend that the 2M Black is now £600 or so
Ooops, my mistake, they are £495. My fault in being too vain to put on my specs when reading the price list. The 2M Black with integrated headshell (yes) is £599.
The Outcast
07-07-2013, 16:05
Just about all of the Ortofon 2M range are cracking at most price points. The only one i haven't heard properly is the Bronze. When i did hear it for a brief spell it was pretty good. If you have forward sounding equipment i found the Grado's rather nice.
I'm just about to add a Jico SAS stylus to my Shure V15iii. This is the only moving magnet that I will be using so I will compare it to two fairly high performance MC's. There are some great reviews of this stylus and cart so I am looking forward to its arrival.
Not tried the Ortofon 2m Black but recently been enjoying an Audio Note IQ3 cartridge but ended up giving it to a friend in need. The sound was more refined than a Goldring 1042 which is also a good performer.
Well my favourite so far is an IQ3 but re-tipped with a sapphire cantilever and Paratrace diamond by the Expert Stylus Company. It just seems to have a bit more dynamic energy than the standard IQ3 to my ears in the same system.
I did have a Clearaudio Maestro that was very good sounding too but perhaps slightly different in it's overall presentation to the re-tipped IQ3 but very enjoyable and can recommend it highly. As mentioned by someone, the overall performance of the cartridges will be dependent upon the capacitance of arm cables etc as well as the synergy between the cartridge and tonearm.
However, I think in my experience extracting the best from any turntable set up usually involves careful and minute adjustment to the tonearm and cartridge settings and particularly the vertical tracking angle and tracking force and cartridge alignment.
RobbieGong
08-07-2013, 21:18
Not tried the Ortofon 2m Black but recently been enjoying an Audio Note IQ3 cartridge but ended up giving it to a friend in need. The sound was more refined than a Goldring 1042 which is also a good performer.
Well my favourite so far is an IQ3 but re-tipped with a sapphire cantilever and Paratrace diamond by the Expert Stylus Company. It just seems to have a bit more dynamic energy than the standard IQ3 to my ears in the same system.
I did have a Clearaudio Maestro that was very good sounding too but perhaps slightly different in it's overall presentation to the re-tipped IQ3 but very enjoyable and can recommend it highly. As mentioned by someone, the overall performance of the cartridges will be dependent upon the capacitance of arm cables etc as well as the synergy between the cartridge and tonearm.
However, I think in my experience extracting the best from any turntable set up usually involves careful and minute adjustment to the tonearm and cartridge settings and particularly the vertical tracking angle and tracking force and cartridge alignment.
So very very true !
Indeed... Often the significant difference in sonic performance between one (quality) turntable and another is set up! IME, people don't spend enough time optimising the performace of their T/Ts, in terms of fine-tuning, as the rewards from doing so are always fundamentally significant!! :exactly:
Marco.
datawireless
09-07-2013, 16:49
Indeed... Often the significant difference in sonic performance between one (quality) turntable and another is set up! IME, people don't spend enough time optimising the performace of their T/Ts, in terms of fine-tuning, as the rewards from doing so are always fundamentally significant!! :exactly:
Marco.
Hear! Hear!
And further to this line of thinking, I'm willing to bet good money that the effort and patience taken to set up the deck, arm and the cartridge is often directly proportional to the cost of the cartridge.
Now what are the odds that many a modestly priced, good MM cartridge out there has never had a chance to sound at it's peak. In one or two cases when this was done meticulously, the wish to spend a large sum of money on an 'even better' cartridge quietly disappeared.
Regards,
Mike
Mike Rajkovic
julesd68
09-07-2013, 18:38
In one or two cases when this was done meticulously, the wish to spend a large sum of money on an 'even better' cartridge quietly disappeared.
What cases were these Mike?
RobbieGong
09-07-2013, 21:19
Indeed... Often the significant difference in sonic performance between one (quality) turntable and another is set up! IME, people don't spend enough time optimising the performace of their T/Ts, in terms of fine-tuning, as the rewards from doing so are always fundamentally significant!! :exactly:
Marco.
Absolutely !!! :thumbsup:
datawireless
13-07-2013, 00:40
What cases were these Mike?
I meant the cases when I myself put in enough time setting up a moving magnet cartridge, one of them was a Garrott P77 I believe.
Regards,
Mike
julesd68
14-07-2013, 20:34
I meant the cases when I myself put in enough time setting up a moving magnet cartridge, one of them was a Garrott P77 I believe.
Regards,
Mike
That's interesting! How did you get on with the Garrott? Have you moved onto another MM or MC?
I do love my P77i.
stewartwen
21-07-2013, 10:13
I dont think that anyone has mentioned the London Jubilee or the Reference yet...................stunning carts.Or the Cartridgeman Silver...this is his top model and sounds sublime!
s
Clive197
21-07-2013, 11:58
Personally I would still opt for the Ortofon 2M Black.:)
the Grace F9E is simply stunning.
Recently just upgraded it with Soundsmith stylus... bringing the sound to another level.
I have the 1042, it does not even come near.
volks
Well my favourite so far is an IQ3
That is a very low IQ
Stratmangler
21-08-2013, 10:21
On this, my Reson Reca is a noticable step up from the Goldring 1042 upon which it is based bringing a larger degree of refinement & treble clarity to the mix.
I used a Reson Reca for years and I concur with you.
The only thing that has caused me to move away from the Reson Reca is the scarcity and cost of a replacement stylus.
walpurgis
21-08-2013, 10:27
I'll stick with my ADC 10E Mk.IV and Mk.II cartridges, for when I want to use a non MC type. They sound superb!
Oldpinkman
21-08-2013, 10:45
On this, my Reson Reca is a noticable step up from the Goldring 1042 upon which it is based bringing a larger degree of refinement & treble clarity to the mix.
Phew. I thought I was going to read all the way through this thread on my by the minute internet connection with no mention of the Goldring 1042 and its very very similar siblings. I have been amazed at what a good little cartridge that is on my recent return to hifi. OK - I am now listening to a few better, but it is vice free and acquits itself very very well indeed. I am cautious of appearing to damn with faint praise. I think it is an excellent cartridge for the price.
Stratmangler
21-08-2013, 10:53
I think it is an excellent cartridge for the price.
I think it was an excellent cartridge for the price, but that price has risen far too high today.
The lack of available replacement stylii is the major downer in the equation, and before someone suggests it the 1042 replacement stylus doesn't work well with the cartridge.
Oldpinkman
21-08-2013, 11:06
I think it was an excellent cartridge for the price, but that price has risen far too high today.
The lack of available replacement stylii is the major downer in the equation, and before someone suggests it the 1042 replacement stylus doesn't work well with the cartridge.
Maybe - must admit I have encountered that problem, but I just love the signature line - where have I seen that before?:lol:
Oldpinkman
21-08-2013, 11:12
Maybe - must admit I have encountered that problem, but I just love the signature line - where have I seen that before?:lol:
Confused - just googled. £275 from Goldring is still ok for this - although Arthur and I swap stylus assemblies around to the point we forget which is which - this range are more similar than different, so the cheaper versions are pretty valid too. £175 for a manufacturer replacement assembly -again - we swap these in and out plenty. Still a damn good cartridge, vice free, and better than some MC shockers I could think of. Although my beautiful new needle is oodles better, we have been amazed by various arms and amps, and I have had a father crying over Bach with this cartridge. :)
I think it was an excellent cartridge for the price, but that price has risen far too high today.
The lack of available replacement stylii is the major downer in the equation, and before someone suggests it the 1042 replacement stylus doesn't work well with the cartridge.
What do you mean? Aside from the oval fixing (so you can't fit a Reson stylus to a Goldring one) they are identical.
The Outcast
28-08-2013, 06:59
nowt the matter with a 2M Blue. They really are cracking for the money. very much a fit and forget device that gets on with playing music. I have one bolted into my lenco/Linn Basik and it sounds champion. I have a Kontrapunkt B in another TT and to my ears the 2M blue gives it a run for it's money. I have heard the 2M black and question just how much better the 2M black really is? I smell Hype and snake oil in the air. oooooops, here we go again, DUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)
nowt the matter with a 2M Blue. They really are cracking for the money. very much a fit and forget device that gets on with playing music. I have one bolted into my lenco/Linn Basik and it sounds champion. I have a Kontrapunkt B in another TT and to my ears the 2M blue gives it a run for it's money. I have heard the 2M black and question just how much better the 2M black really is? I smell Hype and snake oil in the air. oooooops, here we go again, DUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)
The better stylus profile of the Black should provide audible benefits over the Blue's elliptical but the Black will require more careful setup due to the stylus profile or it won't quite "come on song". One of the better setup tools or protractors would help, ie the types that have you set overhang as a first step. Of course though it all depends...there's the quality of rest of the system, value for money, your preferences....etc
Was playing my V15mk4/VN45E the other day and after trying a bunch of modern budget/mid priced MM's, in the Hadcock arm at any rate the V15 still out-shines most of the others for it's excellent tracking, natural balance and detail. I really like this cart. There are undoubtedly far better MM carts available these days but they're all getting pretty costly now. Not for everyone though as modern mid mass arms tend to be a little too weighty to get the best from the V15.
With MMs there seem to be main two points of view:
1) they are low cost cartridges, ok their sound isn't like a decent MC but they convey the bones of the music well.
2) with a modern (expensive) stylus profile and cantilever, similar to those fitted on good MCs, then the sound quality of modern MMs can get close MCs, these MMs are not so low cost though but still cheaper then most MCs.
V15s, Acutex etc can be great and bought for sensible prices. It terms of a modern MM I like the AT-150MLX, this can be found at a decent price with some searching ($324 at lpgear), it's not so different to the more popular 2M Black.
Clive197
28-08-2013, 09:14
Good morning
Over the last 45 years I have owned AudioTechnica, Shure (M75, V15III), ADC and Ortofon. I am a huge fan of the later brand and would answer the original question with Ortofon 2M Black. I have had 4 or 5 Ortofons starting with the VMS20E and VMS20FL MM cartridges before moving on to MC.
While working in audio retailing I had the opportunity of setting up many 2M series carts but still always loved the sound of the Black.
daytona600
28-08-2013, 11:29
the cartridge man MM are very good , use a musicmaker LE myself
RobbieGong
30-08-2013, 00:21
The better stylus profile of the Black should provide audible benefits over the Blue's elliptical but the Black will require more careful setup due to the stylus profile or it won't quite "come on song". One of the better setup tools or protractors would help, ie the types that have you set overhang as a first step. Of course though it all depends...there's the quality of rest of the system, value for money, your preferences....etc
Absolutel spot on Clive and IME too, hence why Ortofon themselves recommend the Black is used on decks with easy / good vta adjust. I had the Blue first which was nice but upgraded to the Black which is sonically a different ball game without a doubt. Mine sounded lovely on my stock Techie arm, the on the fly making intricate set up possible. My upgrade arm therefore had to accomodate my Black because when set up properly it really is that good hence my decision to go with the Micro Seiki MA 202 with on the fly vta adjust. Your point about using a decent protractor is also valid and important too. The Black is a stunning cart - period !
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Tsushima1/019xb_zps76aa9e2e.jpg
RobbieGong
30-08-2013, 12:43
The Technics carts with this type of body do look really cool and I know they are quite rare - How do they sound Roger ?
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Tsushima1/019xb_zps76aa9e2e.jpg
That's just cartridge porn!
That is a very low IQ
Wow, you're really funny.
Now for the high IQ I recommend a Grace F9E with a sapphire catilever and re-tipped by ESCO. Sounds very nice and even nicer after fiddling around with the setting up due to the stiffer cantilever.
kininigin
09-09-2013, 16:27
Absolutel spot on Clive and IME too, hence why Ortofon themselves recommend the Black is used on decks with easy / good vta adjust. I had the Blue first which was nice but upgraded to the Black which is sonically a different ball game without a doubt. Mine sounded lovely on my stock Techie arm, the on the fly making intricate set up possible. My upgrade arm therefore had to accomodate my Black because when set up properly it really is that good hence my decision to go with the Micro Seiki MA 202 with on the fly vta adjust. Your point about using a decent protractor is also valid and important too. The Black is a stunning cart - period !
I would love to hear the black against a vintage Shure SC35C!.I've not heard a modern expensive MM,so would be great to gauge where the Shure stands in a ''modern'' context.
Arkless Electronics
12-09-2013, 14:54
The Grace F9E is indeed very nice. I had one years ago..... can you still get them?
The Ortofon VMS30E MkII is a very nice mm as well but of course no longer available. I have one and really like it.
I prefer low output MC's though!
Stratmangler
12-09-2013, 17:51
What do you mean? Aside from the oval fixing (so you can't fit a Reson stylus to a Goldring one) they are identical.
Have you tried a new 1042 stylus in a Reson body?
I did, and it sounded inferior to the results I was getting with the worn Reson stylus.
Have you tried a new 1042 stylus in a Reson body?
I did, and it sounded inferior to the results I was getting with the worn Reson stylus.
Latest reply ever, but yes I have, and the new stylus is a bit hot and bright compared to one that is well run in.
walpurgis
17-12-2013, 21:44
I have (amongst others) a small collection of vintage ADC cartridges. These are not actually MM, but Induced Magnet, a similar principle though. Anyway, I'd rate my circa 1967 ADC 10E Mk.II against ANY MM I've heard to date.
09mike69
17-12-2013, 21:52
i use an empire 909s, sounds pretty good to me. worked really well on an old pl 12d i tested it on.
The Grace F9E is indeed very nice. I had one years ago..... can you still get them?
The Ortofon VMS30E MkII is a very nice mm as well but of course no longer available. I have one and really like it.
I prefer low output MC's though!
No, the Grace company went out of business long ago. Shame, as the F9E and F14BR were both excellent cartridges.
Owing to me being somewhat 'cak- handed', I unfortunately broke the boron cantilever of the F14, so I fitted it with the stylus of an F9E. The combination sounded pretty good - I reported my findings here: http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/13/07/2012/living-with-a-chimera-the-grace-f-14brmr-cartridge/.
I became enamoured with the Shure V15 IV the very first time I heard it, no other iteration of this cart ever sounded so "right" to me as the IV. Although I would describe myself an MC kinda-guy, a V15 IV was always either in my system or on the back burner.
When the Ortofon 2M Black first hit the scene a friend immediately purchased one and installed it on his VPI...I was shocked at the abilities of this cart. The depth of the bass and the floating high frequencies - nicely done. The vocals are "correct" and sit prefectly bewteen the speakers (when they should that is). It's almost as though Ortofon has bridged the gap between MM and MC.
The Ortofon 2M Black is the best MM cart I'm aware of!
Rick.
Just out of interest is the Black a full sounding cartridge like some MMs?
RobbieGong
19-12-2013, 18:45
Hi Andy, Ricks comments regarding the Black are spot on. I totally get why it would be referred to as bridging the gap between MM and MC. In fact I have read reviews where it has been said to be as good as a lot of good MC's and that it has the characteristics that very good MC's display ie: air, detail, timbre etc. It certainly opened my eyes above all the mm's I'd previously had, non of them sounding anywhere as special as it. I've never had an MC but I believe it's given me a taste of what a good mc would sound like. I've read reviews where it has been preferred over the reviewers previous mc's. Is it full bodded ? Well it certainly isnt bloated or thin that's for sure and has nice air and great separation of parts. It presents the music 'right' in my opinion, veering ever so slightly to the analytic side, which isn't surprising. It has a refined sound and you know it is a quality cart. The Shibata stylus digs very deep, hence oodles of detail retrieval. I know John (Prestonchypfryer) loves his too and is onto his second. He may well have had experience of mc's before so it would be great to hear how he would describe the Blacks presentation and weight of sound :)
What about the Clearaudio Maestro V2?
What about the Clearaudio Maestro V2?
IMO, having recently heard both, the Ortofon Black is much better. Given the price difference between the two, I think it's a no brainer really. As for other recommendations, 2M Black notwithstanding, why don't you give one of the wood bodied Grados a look? They are awfully good at their price point.
IMO, having recently heard both, the Ortofon Black is much better. Given the price difference between the two, I think it's a no brainer really. As for other recommendations, 2M Black notwithstanding, why don't you give one of the wood bodied Grados a look? They are awfully good at their price point.
Oh, thanks! I'm not thinking of getting one or chaging carts anytime soon. Just got a SAE 1000LT and I absolutely love my Acutex M312 STR III, brilliant cart for the money. If I get another one, it'll probably be a Nagaoka MP-30.
Just curious as to how a €900 MM would compare to others...
prestonchipfryer
21-12-2013, 14:28
The Ortofon 2M Black is a fabulous moving magnet cartridge. Capable of great depth and pin-sharp stereo imaging. Masses of detail and comparable to moving coil cartridges way beyond the 2Ms asking price. This sort of performance is realised when the 2M is, as any other cartridge, optimally set up. It may take some time for optimum set up, but the user will know as there is a big soundstage with a smooth treble and obvious bass detail.
Having also used a Lyra Dorian moving coil previously, the 2M does not have as much inner detail but this is probably due the Dorians obvious rise in treble output, which in some systems may sound overly bright. But in my SME V does give a good result.
These are, of course, my experiences. I do not have any other MM magnet to compare the 2M against. I think to beat it then a considerable spend would be needed.
John
PaulStewart
21-12-2013, 14:40
why don't you give one of the wood bodied Grados a look? They are awfully good at their price point.
Have to say I agree with this, to me if you want to go the MM route, the wooden bodied Grados and Decca Londons are the only games in town.
ATB
So what's wrong with a 2M Black then? At least they don't pack up after a few months as Deccas can and so readily do, sadly even new production :(
So what's wrong with a 2M Black then? At least they don't pack up after a few months as Deccas can and so readily do, sadly even new production :(
Yeiks! :eek: I was thinking of getting myself a Decca Reference one day. :doh:
I have a few friends with the reference with no issues Barry
Mine's playing fine right now. :)
No issues when I had a Jubilee or Super Gold either whereas the normally wonderful Ortofon Kontra B took 4 cartridges to get a good one so problems can occur with any make.
I only use a £50 cart and used to have many carts costing a lot more; works really well on linear arm Just gels but might not work well with other arms
OK, I only have hifi dave's recent experiences to go on as my Micro-Scanner is based on an old Gold which was repaired and little used since being sorted in 2007, but he had a Gold on dem for ages, sold it and it failed a few weeks later. A Jubilee he also sold, failed some months into its life. At least both were promptly serviced and sorted, but this brand is too finicky to recommend to just anybody in my opinion, although few would dispute their incredibly truthful sonics when properly styli'd, set up internally, mounted and used - in my opinion... A 2M Black, or top Nagaoka (do they still need very low mass arms?), should be far easier to live with and the advanced diamond profiles they use should be kind to vinyl surface issues and offer great tracing of inner grooves I think.
OK, I only have hifi dave's recent experiences to go on as my Micro-Scanner is based on an old Gold which was repaired and little used since being sorted in 2007, but he had a Gold on dem for ages, sold it and it failed a few weeks later. A Jubilee he also sold, failed some months into its life. At least both were promptly serviced and sorted, but this brand is too finicky to recommend to just anybody in my opinion, although few would dispute their incredibly truthful sonics when properly styli'd, set up internally, mounted and used - in my opinion... A 2M Black, or top Nagaoka (do they still need very low mass arms?), should be far easier to live with and the advanced diamond profiles they use should be kind to vinyl surface issues and offer great tracing of inner grooves I think.
I have 2 x 2Ms as well but for 78 and Mono use. :-)
But yes, even the new London's are picky, mostly about crap on records.
PaulStewart
21-12-2013, 18:38
Nothing wrong with a 2M Black at all, it's a good cartridge all rounder. In my opinion for overall tone the Grado Wooden bodied carts beat it by a close head. The Londons are fussy and can be fragile if not used with extreme care, but if you can honestly show me another cart, that's not an MC costing many times the price, a cart that can give the Decca's incisive detail, pace and depth coupled with rock solid imaging, I'll probably marry it :) In my workshop, I have a Garrot retipped one, in a Hadcock on a modded GL75. The sound of the leading edge and decay of ride cymbals, makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck. :)
Nothing wrong with a 2M Black at all, it's a good cartridge all rounder. In my opinion for overall tone the Grado Wooden bodied carts beat it by a close head. The Londons are fussy and can be fragile if not used with extreme care, but if you can honestly show me another cart, that's not an MC costing many times the price, a cart that can give the Decca's incisive detail, pace and depth coupled with rock solid imaging, I'll probably marry it :) In my workshop, I have a Garrot retipped one, in a Hadcock on a modded GL75. The sound of the leading edge and decay of ride cymbals, makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck. :)
Agreed, and Agreed!
Though IMO you have to be incredibly cak-handed to break a Decca. More often than not it is the appauling variation in workmanship that decides how long a Decca will last. They are fussy cartridges nonetheless, and extraordinary care has to be taken in setting them up and keeping the stylus clean.
Hi all,
I initiated this post a few months back and have found a general consensus amongst AOS members that the 2M Black is indeed one of the great MM cartridges on the market today. I have read a number of comments regarding the Decca cartridges and have owned them myself but they are heaven and hell, dont always track great and not the most reliable for long term use. I was always on a knife edge whe I dropped the needle into the groove!! I currently run the 2M black in a VPI deck and have had superb results for the last 8 months without any issues at all. It sometimes reminds me of the Decca especially on steel guitar notes and does give a vivid almost live rendition of the music.
I can live with this cartridge for a very long time and can definitely recommend it.
Yeah, Decca's can be heaven, and true hell if you're unlucky. The Hadcock arm was judged a good match at the time and Tom Fletcher's arms as used on NAS decks were designed for the Deccas first and foremost I believe. The Mentor deck and arm with Microscanner was the closest I've ever heard vinyl sound to the mastertape copies I had, the obvious weaknesses of the vinyl medium being neatly sidestepped by the uncoloured music-making. You just CAN'T shove a Decca into any old tonearm on any old gtoove-spinner and expect great results sadly.
The thing about the 2M Black is that it should be easy to fit, set up and use day to day. Styli are replaceable and Ortofon have decades of experience of good diamond polishing and aligning. The wooden cased Grado models are very much better than the humbler Gold and below and from memory, majored on the midrange if I'm not mistaken.
What's the price of the Blacks?
prestonchipfryer
24-12-2013, 08:28
Mine was purchased from here
http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?manufacturer=ortofon&page=5
Mine was purchased from here
http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?manufacturer=ortofon&page=5
Thanks, found these prices on ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-2M-BLACK-Cartridge-NEW-/181281893919?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a353e2e1f
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ortofon-2M-Black-Cartridge-NEW/200511590635?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D286%26meid%3D3620349629150194742%26pid%3D10 0005%26prg%3D1048%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D290940 524130%26
What's the price of the Blacks?
RRP for the 2M Black is £495
prestonchipfryer
24-12-2013, 13:37
If you look at the link I posted the price is £450. I know 'caus I bought one a few weeks ago. Those from Germany may be subject to VAT and import duties.
If you look at the link I posted the price is £450. I know 'caus I bought one a few weeks ago. Those from Germany may be subject to VAT and import duties.
There are discounted Blacks on the market but RRP is £495.
There's no import duty or VAT to pay on any kit imported from Germany by the way...Germany is in the EU;)
I would also be very wary of buying cartridges described as new from any source you don't know or trust, especially from overseas. If you buy from anyone in the UK, you know if you're getting an "official" cart (ie no risk of a counterfeit) if buying from a Henly approved retailer (Henley Designs are the importers of Ortofon)
Thanks, no intention of buying a cart at that price, I'll keep an eye out for a decent low hours one SH.
BTW, someone on the wam and on PF is selling a low hours Ortofon Cadenza red for £500 posted.
Just passing this on, I don't know the seller.
prestonchipfryer
24-12-2013, 16:47
There are discounted Blacks on the market but RRP is £495.
There's no import duty or VAT to pay on any kit imported from Germany by the way...Germany is in the EU;)
I would also be very wary of buying cartridges described as new from any source you don't know or trust, especially from overseas. If you buy from anyone in the UK, you know if you're getting an "official" cart (ie no risk of a counterfeit) if buying from a Henly approved retailer (Henley Designs are the importers of Ortofon)
The RRP may well be £499 but the one I bought was collected from the dealer, near Poole, by myself and was £450. It is brand new.
It is not a discounted price!
I recently tried a 2M Black and really did not get on with it, I removed it with under 25 hours play time, it was the fact that
Nude Shibata stylus just loves surface noise, and my arm is not up for finite VTA adjustments to get the cartridge in the best
place which apparently helps to alleviated the surface noise issue.
Musically it was OK, it was the surface I just could not live with, and all my vinyl it wet cleaned old and new.
I recently tried a 2M Black and really did not get on with it, I removed it with under 25 hours play time, it was the fact that
Nude Shibata stylus just loves surface noise, and my arm is not up for finite VTA adjustments to get the cartridge in the best
place which apparently helps to alleviated the surface noise issue.
Musically it was OK, it was the surface I just could not live with, and all my vinyl it wet cleaned old and new.
Might this 2M black be up for sale then?
It and has been up for sale, may give it one more go though unless you want to make me an offer via PM that I cannot refuse.
Well less than 25 hours on it and I paid £480 for it.
I recently tried a 2M Black and really did not get on with it,.....it was the fact that
Nude Shibata stylus just loves surface noise,.....
I had this problem with the Goldring 1042 and its Gyger-S stylus, these ultra fine designs are great at reproducing fine detail on new records, but on pre owned 60's/70's, which is most of my collection, it just sounded bad, reproducing every tick, click and pop, with someone frying bacon in the background.
I fitted a Denon DL-301 mkII LOMC and it transformed my collection, the difference was huge, many records which were just unlistenable with the 1042, became very acceptable with the 301. I can recommend it for pre loved vinyl, if you can work with a LOMC. :)
Shure M55E, best MM I've heard.
LOMC......
Thought this thread was.....Best MM carts.?
Shure M55E, best MM I've heard.
Yep, absolute gem the M55e especially with its adaptablity with different stylus.
walpurgis
14-12-2016, 19:39
LOMC......
Thought this thread was.....Best MM carts.?
Not necessarily! :D
Maybe rename this post Best MM and MC cartridges. I would be interested to know which cartridges folk thought were the best in each class.
Arkless Electronics
14-12-2016, 20:19
Ortofon 2M Black, VMS30E MkII not bad at much lower price, Grace F9E, Technics EPC-205, ADC25, 26 maybe... and I'd take a decent LOMC over any of them in a nanosecond....
Glanz (same as Astatic MF-x00 series) "moving flux" cartridges & Pickering XLZ (low output) are my favourites and probably the only ones I've heard I think could be said to play ball with decent MCs in my system. Ortofon VMS20/30 & AT15Sa are good cartridges as well. I can hear why some people think the aforementioned AT is one of the best MM cartridges they ever made, very refined and excellent detail but to my tastes perhaps just a tad laid back. Might be it would show more punch in a lower mass arm though. Haven't fully made up my mind about it yet, maybe I need to give it more time.
If I had to pick one I'd probably go with the Glanz MFG-31E, the Pickering is a bit of a dark horse since I haven't got around to getting a good stylus for it. I've been using it with a DJ stylus for Stanton 890E, which is very good for what I use it for though.
Still, I'd take my Ortofon MC 10 Supreme over any of them - between AT30E (LOMC), the Glanz and the Pickering it would be more tightly contested.
Ortofon 2M Black, VMS30E MkII not bad at much lower price, Grace F9E, Technics EPC-205, ADC25, 26 maybe... and I'd take a decent LOMC over any of them in a nanosecond....
But that's not what the OP asked.
I would add the AKG P8ES to the list, as well as the B&O MMC 20E and MMC 20EN. The ADC 25 and 26 are identical, save the 25 came with a choice of three stylus profiles, the 26 one.
Gordon Steadman
15-12-2016, 16:08
If you are asking because you are in the market, there is a very nice Technics 205 going on this very forum. After many years, I still find it the most satisfying cartridge I have heard. To my ears, a good MM is preferable to an MC but only individual ears can judge.
If you are asking because you are in the market, there is a very nice Technics 205 going on this very forum. After many years, I still find it the most satisfying cartridge I have heard. To my ears, a good MM is preferable to an MC but only individual ears can judge.
I am with you on that Gordon as I have also come to that conclusion. I have messed around with and heard a lot of cartridges this year both MM and MC and I would now prefer a good MM rather than a MC.
However a Decca does something both cannot quite achieve
Vive le difference. I also love MMs, am willing to trade a bit of top end for better bass slam, ease of getting a quiet sound at low expense, and replaceable stylii. My favourite cart is a Reson Reca.
Arkless Electronics
15-12-2016, 18:13
Vive le difference indeed... My own view is that MM's are not ideal for anything beyond mid-fi... Kind of once you go beyond Rega Planar 3 stage an MM would be the weakest link in the chain.
I find MC's vastly superior in every area... bass slam, dynamics, transparency, imaging, sound staging, detail, treble, wider tonal palette... the lot. You do need to go to greater lengths to get the best out of them in terms of phono stage though... As a designer of such things, I will say that it is very considerably more difficult and expensive to make a really good MC stage than a really good MM stage.
IMHO, to generalise, a MM will soften things a bit too much, loose some filigree detail and sound a bit grey with reduced depth perspective. Obviously a real gem of an MM is going to beat an "average-" MC though!
atomheartmother
15-12-2016, 18:17
Thumbs up from me i have a clearaudio maestro that i love compare very favourably to my lyra lydian, just different, very detailed
Clifford.T Ward
15-12-2016, 18:35
The Ortofon OM series is good too, especially as you go past the 20 towards the 40 ....however, they need a bit of extra capacitance in most systems, before you hear then at their best.
Gordon Steadman
15-12-2016, 19:21
Vive le difference indeed... My own view is that MM's are not ideal for anything beyond mid-fi... Kind of once you go beyond Rega Planar 3 stage an MM would be the weakest link in the chain.
I find MC's vastly superior in every area... bass slam, dynamics, transparency, imaging, sound staging, detail, treble, wider tonal palette... the lot. You do need to go to greater lengths to get the best out of them in terms of phono stage though... As a designer of such things, I will say that it is very considerably more difficult and expensive to make a really good MC stage than a really good MM stage.
IMHO, to generalise, a MM will soften things a bit too much, loose some filigree detail and sound a bit grey with reduced depth perspective. Obviously a real gem of an MM is going to beat an "average-" MC though!
I disagree:lol:
Clifford.T Ward
15-12-2016, 19:29
I think to say MC is better than MM is not a well thought out arguement. They are both ways of applying the physics of the cutting of lines of flux within a magnetic field......whilst both camps will have their strengths and waeknesses it is ilogical to say that one CAN achieve more than the other....different paths to heaven maybe but not different destinations .......
Arkless Electronics
15-12-2016, 20:40
MC has a much lower generator impedance (more a resistance) and vastly lower inductance and so usually gives a flatter response to much higher frequencies, a faster transient response without the ringing and without peaks and troughs in the treble end due to electrical resonance of the generator ;)
Arkless Electronics
15-12-2016, 20:45
I disagree:lol:
I expected you to:lol:
Personally I find the difference between MM and MC such that if there were only MM carts I would probably give up on vinyl and go over totally to digital.... maybe an EPC-205 or a 2M Black could keep me with vinyl... but no "reasonably priced" MM... YMMV
walpurgis
15-12-2016, 21:01
Hmm. I could live with a good ADC. Not strictly MM though, but works in a similar way with fixed coils.
I've got some very nice MCs, but I've kept my collection of vintage ADCs. They sound damn good.
Hmm. I could live with a good ADC. Not strictly MM though, but works in a similar way with fixed coils.
I've got some very nice MCs, but I've kept my collection of vintage ADCs. They sound damn good.
Very few "MM"s are moving magnet. The term MM is a convenient term for designs whereby the coil is fixed and ithe magnet flux is varied by the stylus/cantilever. So such designs may variously be described as: induced magnet; moving iron; variluctance; variable magnetic shunt, etc. depending on how the magnetic flux is altered by the stylus/cantilever.
Agree with you regarding the ADCs.
Although the 2M Black is on a pedestal; personally I much prefer the rather better value AT150MLX. Yes MCs...rather more expensive...as more subtle but MMs often have more drive or as Barry points out MM output level cartridges.
I am glad to hear I am not the only one who prefers the AT150MLX to the 2M Black.
It is a shame it is just the AT150SA that is available new now, as the AT150MLX has been discontinued.
I am glad to hear I am not the only one who prefers the AT150MLX to the 2M Black.
It is a shame it is just the AT150SA that is available new now, as the AT150MLX has been discontinued.
Nice to know there is at least one other MM cartridge out there that can hold its own to the 2M black ;)
Is the AT150MLX easier to set up?
walpurgis
16-12-2016, 10:15
Deccas are non MC cartridges, that have fixed coils and operate by influencing the coils in the way an MM does. They offer a very individual sound. The way music is portrayed is fairly unique. There is a speed and attack that the majority of other cartridges, whether MC or MM can't replicate. Lucidity and openness are very good too. Anybody used to regular MM cartridges normally has a bit of a shock on first trying a Decca. They are very different indeed.
A bit of a digression, as this is an MM thread. The only alternative cartridge I've come across that offers the same kind of approach as Deccas is the ZYX R100 02H. This too, has that speed and incisiveness, but is deeper in soundstage and more transparent. Bass is better extended and there's an impression of greater control, especially at higher frequencies.
albertan
18-12-2016, 08:59
I have had very good luck with older Shures. My first real cartridge was a Shure V15 type IV. My next was a Shure Ultra 500. I have, in my (small) stable, an Audio Technica AT150ANV. A titanium bodied version of the AT 150. I like At 150's. If the set up is done right and the records are clean they sound very good. If your set up is off, so will the sound. They don't forgive, the imaging and the bass wont be there, and the treble will be splashy. A Jelco or a Rega work well with either the good Shures or the Audio Technica 150 clan. More sophisticated tonearms, such as top flight SME's will bring added benefits.
Deccas are non MC cartridges, that have fixed coils and operate by influencing the coils in the way an MM does. They offer a very individual sound. The way music is portrayed is fairly unique. There is a speed and attack that the majority of other cartridges, whether MC or MM can't replicate. Lucidity and openness are very good too. Anybody used to regular MM cartridges normally has a bit of a shock on first trying a Decca. They are very different indeed.
A bit of a digression, as this is an MM thread. The only alternative cartridge I've come across that offers the same kind of approach as Deccas is the ZYX R100 02H. This too, has that speed and incisiveness, but is deeper in soundstage and more transparent. Bass is better extended and there's an impression of greater control, especially at higher frequencies.
I've just got a Soundsmith Carmen, which I think sounds fantastic. It's described as a Moving Iron. Much of what you described about the Decca, well sums up the SS. It's fast, dynamic and has awesome bass, whilst still remaining smooth. In your opinion are these similar designs? I'm new to all of this, so trying to understand.
Partly inpsired by this thread I gave the AT15Sa another go and took some better care with setup and it seems it's better than I remembered. Quite impressed with it actually. Unforgiving of record condition though. I'll have to double check azimuth because it being slightly off I've noticed can cause that, but I'm suspecting it's just the tip profile. Most line-contacts don't seem to take kindly to record wear and since I have a lot of used records in less than perfect shape, that's a bummer. Now the profile Ortofon VMS30 has was magic in this respect, it was not a very sharp or extended profile (8µm ×*40µm, while the Shibata is 6x75 if I recall correctly and some others are even sharper and more extended than that) but it had the magic of just gliding through most imperfections unlike any other line contact (or elliptical for that matter) I've heard. Granted I've only owned shibatas and some Fritz-Gyger. I wonder if the 2M Bronze or Quintet Bronze are similar in this respect, they seem to use the same 8x40 tip.
topoxforddoc
18-12-2016, 21:44
Deccas are non MC cartridges, that have fixed coils and operate by influencing the coils in the way an MM does. They offer a very individual sound. The way music is portrayed is fairly unique. There is a speed and attack that the majority of other cartridges, whether MC or MM can't replicate.
Spot on. Even my Allaerts MC1B (a £4k MC cartridge now) can't match my Decca C4e for live presence and dynamism.
walpurgis
18-12-2016, 22:20
I've just got a Soundsmith Carmen, which I think sounds fantastic. It's described as a Moving Iron. Much of what you described about the Decca, well sums up the SS. It's fast, dynamic and has awesome bass, whilst still remaining smooth. In your opinion are these similar designs? I'm new to all of this, so trying to understand.
Can't say, as I've not tried the Carmen. I take it that model is not based on Grado designs, as most Soundsmith cartridges have been.
macvisual
18-12-2016, 23:10
I've been running a Len Gregory Music Maker 3 moving iron cartridge for around a month now and enjoying it a lot, has anyone experienced the Music Maker 'Classic' cartridge at all?
Would love to hear your views/thoughts.
Kanders1
19-12-2016, 15:56
All depends on so many variables... its almost impossible to say what's going to sound better or worse to one's ears..! even they need a clean out to appreciate the sound that's coming from your setup as I've just found out!
I have played with a number of cartridges and stylus with various amps and arms and TT and speakers... getting the right combo is all down to you and what you like to hear. My current flavor is a Shure V15Vx with a VN5xMR stylus. not a cheap option these days but the odd one pops up for a reasonable price..
listen and Enjoy the music... when it makes you smile you found the right combo..!
Good luck !
Jac Hawk
30-12-2016, 11:21
All depends on so many variables... its almost impossible to say what's going to sound better or worse to one's ears..! even they need a clean out to appreciate the sound that's coming from your setup as I've just found out!
I have played with a number of cartridges and stylus with various amps and arms and TT and speakers... getting the right combo is all down to you and what you like to hear.
True!
With my current TT i've found that the Ortofon VMS carts sounded right, started with a VMS20 mk2, lost it when i moved and have just got a very low use VMS30 mk2, they are getting on a bit now so it can be a struggle to find one in good condition, but for my ears with my TT and wallet they sound sweet.
Stryder5
30-12-2016, 12:34
But that's not what the OP asked.
I would add the AKG P8ES to the list, as well as the B&O MMC 20E and MMC 20EN. The ADC 25 and 26 are identical, save the 25 came with a choice of three stylus profiles, the 26 one.
Love it, they're identical with differences.....lol
" I take it that model is not based on Grado designs, as most Soundsmith cartridges have been."
All the Soundsmith-branded moving iron cartridges are based on the B&O design, not Grado. I have an Aida and it is superb, great all through the spectrum and shockingly quiet in the groove. After days of futzing with various Deccas, it is a relief to put the Aida back on and just listen.
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