View Full Version : Your favourite DAC?
There seems to be a plethora of really good DACs around for reasonable cash these days and even the excellent Young DAC seems to be getting pipped to the post by rivals at half the price. Are things really progressing that fast with audibile improvements or do you think that there's other reasons such as a shift in sampling philosophy or the growing fashion for tubed buffer stages (which certainly sound good if well implemented to my ears)?
What would you offer as the top 5 DACs out there sub £1000 at present and why?
My list would include the following:
Musical Fidelity M1;
Jolida FXII Tube DAC;
Simaudio Moon 100D;
Rega DAC;
Eastern Electric Minimax DAC
Of that list, the MF DAC is possibly the leanest sounding up top but over-all quite neutral and flexible. The Simaudio seems to have been voiced similar to their other kit, slightly fuller than some in the mids and very smooth, not unlike the Rega in some ways (that seems to have slight emphasis on upper bass/mids) but for me, in my system, it'd have to be the Eastern Electric or the Jolida. DACs in general seem to vary only slightly between manufacturers (as you'd have every right to expect) until something comes along and punches your ears with sheer musicality and involvement with "nothing missing". I'd put the last two in that category. Not tempted to venture into DAC territory yet personally as I like what the droplet CDP does but for the cash, a cheap (DVD) transport and sub £1K DAC just seem to make more sense than a high end CDP these days.
Interesting topic as have auditioned few myself at the same pricepoint but still have decided to stick with my old and reliable Russ Andrews DAC-1, which seems to hold up its own pretty well. So have figured out that perhaps need to really step up to get improvement at some point and also at the same time consider what is available at the the hires market..
Oldpinkman
23-06-2013, 14:10
Doubtless just the deranged ramblings of the sentimental and senile, but my favourite (no longer available) is the DaCapo 22bit I have managed recently to pick up from ebay. The HDCD is supposed to be better, but I've never heard it. And I haven't heard 3 of the 5 you list. However, I have been struck that Dacs sound like Dacs, and disappointingly so. After 20 years away, I just assumed all the advances had been made, stuck on a chip, and would be available in any modern player. I haven't auditioned at home. I auditioned the MDac (the rather obvious one missing from your list) on my own headphones (but it's preamp / headphone amp) as well as in an unremarkable 7oaks hifi set up. I was going to take them up on their (very fair) offer to take it home and audition it there because I was unimpressed in the shop, and then thought I'd try to pick up a DaCapo just one more time to prove that what I thought I remembered was rubbish, and the modern dacs were so much better
And discovered quite the opposite. I have stated at length elsewhere that I use my own ears for auditioning, but on this occasion I think it is useful to note my wifes observations. She had accompanied me, in a "interested to be polite" way on all my skirmishes with modern equipment. We got the DaCapo home, plugged it in, stuck a CD on and her comment was "you were right, it does sound like vinyl". In fact when we then did a direct comparison on the one recording I have on both media (Katie Melua Secret Symphony" vinyl remained slightly better. But slightly. And not completely different.
So to answer the thread question - my favourite Dac is Dacapo 22bit (for now)
Rare Bird
23-06-2013, 14:15
Musical Fidelity 'Digilog' & the old Kingshaw 'perception' DAC
falcoron
23-06-2013, 14:39
The MF M1 would not be on my list had one and thought is was crap to me frank, my cheap Sony blue ray played with or without the dac there was no difference.
YBA W202 latest hi Rez for £800 is a cracker with bal connections too
Best budget by a country mile and right up with most £1000 dacs is the bushmaster, but the power supply and connectors are not great but it sounds bloody great.
Jolida gets a great review from owners but I'm cautious with the new tangled flavour of the month, the young was followed with great fervour when launched and a good lot of those owners now have the rega, must sat the rega is as sweet as a nut and a good price too
wee tee cee
23-06-2013, 14:45
I have the musical fidelity M1 and the HPA as my headphone rig but also utilised as a single line pre amp. I recently invested in a passive pre so the M1 is strutting its stuff through the new line up. I put my hands up, I really like it...it is a bit brighter and tighter than a lot of its peers and needs to be to be matched with suitable electronics and cables. A few of us Scottish lads have got together on a number of occasions and the M1 has been tried in a few systems, it didn't fair too well against Ali Tates valve DAC or even a audio note valve DAK that really entranced me.
Again returning home to my set up and room the M1 really shines in term of soundstage/ detail and pace. Recently Gary (gazjam) brought over a young DAC with a separate PSU, it sounded really good in my system in both a t/amp ,spendor combo and my valve/static combo, grabbed my son to borrow his ears and he agreed it was the best noise we had heard in my room. The Rega I have tried a couple of times in my set up and just did not get along with it at all. All DACs to me, seem to have they're own unique flavour, but are all essentially the same dish. the M1 is to my taste, and never ceases to satisfy my appetite......horses for courses me thinks.
Might be prudent to add that all DACs ive tried have been fed by co ax from a v-link/usb/lap top....nothing esoteric.
I can empathise with just about all the responses so far as IME there's never been a clear consensus on DACs (so it seems) and the comment about being wary of what's in fashion is very true to a lot of hifi, but I listed the ones I personally liked for the money, and I'm sure there's many more that are equally as good or better for the money (its just I haven't heard them). I must admit to not having heard the Young DAC but do remember the hype at its launch, followed by more hype when all the upgrades were discovered (making me think "was the original hype justified?"). I have heard many good things about the Da Capo too but have yet to hear one.
The summing up by Tony about reflects my own impressions of the MF Dac. I liked it for its detail, flexibility and sound staging plus price wise, it's not too shabby compared with its peers. I'd say it would need to be more carefully matched than some and this about reflects my experience with most of MFs digital kit...it seems to verge on brightness although nowhere near as much as earlier MF digital players do. I once owned the X-Ray V8 CDP and as detailed as it might have been, it could make your ears bleed it was that sharp. My favourites despite the many technically minded shouting "no, don't go there!" remain the valved DACs and some of the NOS varieties. In truth, few seem to have wrought night and day differences and some of the oldest chipsets seem to be still amongst my favourites today, including the Phillips TDA1543.
purite audio
23-06-2013, 15:31
The Young was never 'hyped ' at all, it is just a really good dac, that sounds identical through all it's inputs, it found favour with computer users because it's async USB protocol is properly designed and implemented ,unlike the Rega!
It has never been 'upgraded',perhaps a little more research before the pronouncements!
Keith.
wee tee cee
23-06-2013, 15:50
the M1 is very system dependant.....took it along to another of the troops gaff, it sounded pure pish. I was honestly cringing.....but in my own set up/room its spot on-horses for courses as I said.
The Young was never 'hyped ' at all, it is just a really good dac, that sounds identical through all it's inputs, it found favour with computer users because it's async USB protocol is properly designed and implemented ,unlike the Rega!
It has never been 'upgraded',perhaps a little more research before the pronouncements!
Keith.
Sorry Keith, the upgraded comments were not related to the manufacturer but to some of the DIY upgrades reported widely for the DAC, I should have made that clearer. I do think that there was a lot of forum based discussion of it, hence the "hyped" terminology which I do think is fair comment and there's nothing detrimental in that unless its taken that way? As mentioned, I never heard one and its reputation stands being quite good. I merely made a valid point that when things are reportedly that good, inevitably someone will take one and "upgrade it". Nothing detrimental was intended regarding it, and certainly nothing said to jump on so quickly ;) Its just subjective opinions, not facts to be disputed. Also, the discussion isn't really aimed at bashing any particular make nor to have the relative technical drawbacks or merits highlighted unless relevant for the comparisons in sound quality. Personally, its what something sounds like that matters to me, not whether company A has done something that company B "ought" to have done.
purite audio
23-06-2013, 16:03
As far as I am aware no single dac unit has ever been upgraded,external power supplies were manufactured by a number of of 'kitchen table' manufacturers, and a few Young units have been fried as a result.
Keith.
For vintage DACs, the old 1541 based AVI DAC was very good (although the CD player they later made with different chipset was better). The very last Linn Numerik was good too.
These days and for USB, the Behringer UCA 202 takes some beating (under £30) if you don't know what it is you're listening to. Of course, as soon as you see the little plastic case and the name on it, it becomes a pile of poo as the preconceived ideas kick in :)
Hmmmm...there were a fair few posts on various forums about the Young DACs, psu's or whatever, they sounded like good units and I'd be very interested in listening to one at some point. For the minute though, VFM does seem to be improving all the time when it comes to DACs in particular.
Often Chinese manufacture in the zillions must help I'm sure, but fortunately, the same names come up time after time by satisfied owners at various price points, so hopefully it isn't a load of bull...
Cambridge DACMagic II?
Can't disagree with the Young being mentioned...
Took mine (with separate PSU) down to Owsten DIY meet and a few of the guys came back to me saying how good it sounded.
Didn't disgrace itself in some very esteemed company.
Prior to this I had a Rega Dac and the Young is a level above that, especially on usb.
Two current DACs I get along with really well:
Metrum Octave mkII - it's NOS, I use it with the USB input card powered by an iFi iUSBPower
John Kenny's Ciúnas
The two DACs I feel are at a similar standard with the Octave being a little more "analogue" and the Ciúnas and bit more detailed thoigh in truth the sound of these 2 DACs is pretty close, more 2 sides of the same coin. The Ciúnas is USB only (and is much less expensive) whereas the Octave also has SPDIF and Optical.
Oldpinkman
23-06-2013, 16:45
I have heard many good things about the Da Capo too but have yet to hear one.
.
There are not too many about nowadays. There were not that many in them days, and a lot failed terminally and irreparably. My daughter is at Hartpury college. I'll put mine in the boot next time I'm down there. As the only dac I am aware of with a discreet dac circuit instead of a chip, it was very different to any other I have encountered. I have a feeling JW shares that feeling, but got lured into MDac partly because of other digital formats. As a redbook device it is special.
purite audio
23-06-2013, 17:55
I sold my Meridian 808 to a DaCapo owner , it sounded extremely opaque compared to the modern dac, far less resolution and rolled off bass and treble.
Keith.
Considering that the Meridian could bore the bollocks off a charging Rhino @ 100 paces that says something!
Oldpinkman
23-06-2013, 20:04
I sold my Meridian 808 to a DaCapo owner , it sounded extremely opaque compared to the modern dac, far less resolution and rolled off bass and treble.
Keith.
And my aunt knew someone whose friends sister said a cd player sounded more natural than an orchestra. So that's ok then :)
walpurgis
23-06-2013, 20:08
I'll stick with my Monarchy Audio M22B thanks.
realysm42
23-06-2013, 20:22
Dacs, serious business.
purite audio
23-06-2013, 20:34
And my aunt knew someone whose friends sister said a cd player sounded more natural than an orchestra. So that's ok then :)
We compared dacs through the same system , sitting together in the same room at the same time, and the DaCapo owner purchased the Meridian of his own free will.
Perhaps it was good for its time?
Keith.
kenworthy100
23-06-2013, 20:38
Audiolab m-dac for me, combines versatility and sonic characteristics I enjoy closely followed by Musical Fidelity M1, as others have said a little system dependant but nevertheless good value for money and enjoyable.
I sold my Meridian 808 to a DaCapo owner , it sounded extremely opaque compared to the modern dac, far less resolution and rolled off bass and treble.
Keith.
The thing about the Da Capos was that the various different filters made them sound very, very different. Do you remember which filter the one you heard had installed Keith? I suspect that it was not a 24 bit or HDCD filter.
I owned both the Rega and Mdac recently and have to say that I was more than a little underwhelmed by both. They had a touch more micro-detail than my ancient Da Capo, but in every other way the Da Capo blew them away by some considerable margin. If anything, it was they that sounded positively opaque in comparison. The thing that I really couldn't get along with most of all with both of these modern DACs was a certain lack of realism when compared to the Da Capo, the instruments sounded like they were going through some kind of computer sound processor before coming out of the speakers.
Keith, why don't you pop round sometime and have a listen to my Da Capo (you are only round the corner) and tell me if it sounds as you remember? I don't hear rolled off bass and treble in my system, but then I do use solid state amplification into Monitor Audio speakers :). You could always bring a Young DAC round to compare if you'd like, not an absolute necessity of course, just might be rather nice to hear one now I think :eyebrows:.
Regards,
Frank
Richard Kimber
23-06-2013, 21:39
As far as I am aware no single dac unit has ever been upgraded,external power supplies were manufactured by a number of of 'kitchen table' manufacturers, and a few Young units have been fried as a result.
Keith.
I'm having my MDAC upgraded by John Westlake in the next few weeks, so I'll be able to report back.
I had the MF M1 for some weeks on demo, and then was able to compare it with the MDAC. I preferred, and bought, the MDAC.
- Richard.
Ninanina
23-06-2013, 23:48
A friend has the Rega Dac which I think is a terrific Dac but on balance, just, I prefer my Bushmaster used with the Mark Grant Linear power supply. The Bushmaster sounds very analogue to me
A dealer warned me off the Audiolab MDac for being too clinical sounding
Don't know if that helps :)
Oldpinkman
24-06-2013, 05:12
Frank you make some good points and clearly share my experiences. The dac keith refers to probably had an 18 bit filter in. Or might have been faulty. My response was triggered by my previous post referring to the fact that rather than rely on a memory I had bought a 22bit dacapo at easter and compared it with 2 of the 5 modern dacs. In my wifes classes at school there are kids who know that the moon landings were faked and that I am the numty for believing they really happened. I am comfortable with my beliefs and direct personal experience. I wouldn't want to stop anybody else having theirs.:stalks:
Oldpinkman
24-06-2013, 05:32
A friend has the Rega Dac which I think is a terrific Dac but on balance, just, I prefer my Bushmaster used with the Mark Grant Linear power supply. The Bushmaster sounds very analogue to me
A dealer warned me off the Audiolab MDac for being too clinical sounding
Don't know if that helps :)
Theres no substitute for a pair of ears. Which of the more than 10 filter options on mdac was he referring to as clinical?
Oldpinkman
24-06-2013, 06:58
Hi Frank
You mentioned solid state amps - what do you use? And why can't I see that on your profile?
Just because its difficult (and somewhat "intuitive") designing good bottle amps, and there is a "hand made by Tibetan monks" element to things like transformer winding, and the components are necessarily more expensive, does not de facto mean valves are better. They rarely measure well. Now, this is an old thorn in the side for me, I am hopeful I might now get some progress on (slowly - over the next 10 years probably, but we have made a start). Whilst I haven't yet got my friend to do me a bottle design, he is at least getting the bug at having a go at the long overdue power amp, and my favourite provocative comment "Measurements aren't everything - why do valves sound so good"? has got him thinking. His idea he wants to build is ultra low distortion - again, not something which by itself produces "good sounds". His response to this charge previously was to produce a circuit which allows you to dial in progressive low level even order harmonic distortion. As he points out - interesting, but not hifi by the definition we agreed to work to (recently endorsed by Marco). This is a hifi amp not a guitar amp we are building and "sweet" is potentially another term for "coloured".
Enough ranting for now - back to the day job :eyebrows:
realysm42
24-06-2013, 06:59
There aren't more than 10 filters on he mdac, more like 7.
Been using the MDAC for about a year now, and just yesterday installed the MCRU linear power supply for the MDAC. BTW, shipping was very fast, from England to Vancouver Canada in just 4 days.
David Brook really has something with this power supply. The improvement in all aspects is astonishing. Really takes the MDAC up many notches. In Canada the MDAC sells for about $850 - 900 range. I would hazard this upgrade has improved things so much, I would be looking at spending $3K - $5K to get a significant improvement over this.
The thinness and some of the upper treble peak that some comment on in regard to the MDAC, disappear and are replaced by a very rich and analog style sound, with many added layers of bass, timbre, and a real solidity and drive.
Very impressive, and after 20 years of upgrades ranks in the top 2 - 3 I have upgrades I have ever done. Also very cost effective when the result is considered.
I suggest that if you are using an MDAC, this is an upgrade you need to do before ever considering changing your DAC.
I also have the MCRU power supply upgrade for the SB Touch, and that too is very good, but the improvements on the MDAC upgrade are on a bigger scale.
I have tried removing the MCRU units and putting the wall warts back in, and "ouch", what a downgrade. Try the MCRU power supply upgrades if it's in your budget.
Beresford Bushmaster for me, provided the plug-top switched mode PSU is swapped for a linear power supply. I use a Paul Hynes PR3 module with mine.
The level of detail is astounding, together with real soundstage insight, strong bass and a natural, unvoiced neutrality. I am not a file-based audio chap, but whenever I try it (either with a local USB drive or streamed from a Logitech Touch), I am amazed at the quality of sound. It doesn't reach the giddy heights of my Ayre disc spinner, but the fact that it gets close at 5% of the price says it all.
Musical Fidelity 'Digilog' & the old Kingshaw 'perception' DAC
Andre
Agreed re Digilog - not a week goes by that I don't regret chopping in my £50 purchase for some nattier modern thing (name forgotten)! They were gems, except for the control buttons falling off!
Peter
Been using the MDAC for about a year now, and just yesterday installed the MCRU linear power supply for the MDAC. BTW, shipping was very fast, from England to Vancouver Canada in just 4 days.
David Brook really has something with this power supply. The improvement in all aspects is astonishing. Really takes the MDAC up many notches. In Canada the MDAC sells for about $850 - 900 range. I would hazard this upgrade has improved things so much, I would be looking at spending $3K - $5K to get a significant improvement over this.
The thinness and some of the upper treble peak that some comment on in regard to the MDAC, disappear and are replaced by a very rich and analog style sound, with many added layers of bass, timbre, and a real solidity and drive.
Very impressive, and after 20 years of upgrades ranks in the top 2 - 3 I have upgrades I have ever done. Also very cost effective when the result is considered.
I suggest that if you are using an MDAC, this is an upgrade you need to do before ever considering changing your DAC.
I also have the MCRU power supply upgrade for the SB Touch, and that too is very good, but the improvements on the MDAC upgrade are on a bigger scale.
I have tried removing the MCRU units and putting the wall warts back in, and "ouch", what a downgrade. Try the MCRU power supply upgrades if it's in your budget.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the glowing report on the linear PSU, I hear audiolab have decided not to offer a separate PSU for the mdac, the new qdac also accepts the MCRU/LDA linear so all is looking good. You are right about the combo being that good you would have to spend serious money to better it, not me talking but many of the psu owners have said exactly that. :)
howlindawg
01-07-2013, 22:13
I tried most of the usual sub 1K suspects when looking for a new DAC.
Gatorised Caiman
MDAC
MF
Rega
Arcam
For me two stood out above the rest, namely the Young and the (slightly more expensive) NAD M51
Then I put my money where my mouth was and bought the Young. :smoking:
Oldpinkman
02-07-2013, 05:33
Where can I get to audition a young dac? Are they sold by any retailers? We had long lost college friends of my wifes round for a barbecue thiscweekend who were really interested in the record player and drooled over how wonderful it was - in spite of the arcam - and went on about how much better vinyl was, how much more real, natural, and like live music it is. So I put a cd on dacapo (rodrigo y Gabriella) and got the response "oh my god - its the same as vinyl". Its not, as I then demonstrated with the cd and vinyl versions of katie melua secret symphony, but as Wellington described waterloo, its a damn near run thing.
Sovereign
02-07-2013, 17:42
http://www.puriteaudio.co.uk
The chaps name is Keith
but as Wellington described waterloo, its a damn near run thing.
At the risk [*1] of being spat upon I can say that my Digital Front End - consisting of a highly tweaked PC and Wyred4sound DAC - is definitely better than my TT. The cost of the two in my system is approximately equal. Maybe analogue is better - blah blah - but if it is a pound for pound (or $ for $) comparison I think that digital is better. A good DAC based on the ESS Sabre 9018 chip produces such a good (analogue![*2]) output that I prefer it to my turntable.
Of course there are other variables in the equation, such as the interconnects, resolution [33 rpm / 45 rpm : 44.1 khz / 192 khz], and especially the mastering. A well mastered LP will always sound better than an averagely mastered CD or SACD. Equally a well mastered 48 khz downloaded FLAC will always sound better than even a 45 rpm LP if it is poorly mastered.
But back to my theme: I do like my turntable but what I have discerned is to get the real magic of LP costs a good chunk more than digital. An OPPO 105 or a PC plus Quality DAC combo is not expensive in HI-Fi terms. I used to run an Asus Xonar soundcard which is based on the same Burr Brown - Texas Instruments to be pedantic - chips as many current DACs. My giddy aunt! That was REAL Hi-Fi (no not high end or mid end, but HIGH FIDELITY none the less) for just a couple of hundred bucks.
*1 'Certainty' may be a better word
*2 It is a Digital to Analogue converter
Oldpinkman
03-07-2013, 08:13
At the risk [*1] of being spat upon I can say that my Digital Front End - consisting of a highly tweaked PC and Wyred4sound DAC - is definitely better than my TT. The cost of the two in my system is approximately equal. Maybe analogue is better - blah blah - but if it is a pound for pound (or $ for $) comparison I think that digital is better. A good DAC based on the ESS Sabre 9018 chip produces such a good (analogue![*2]) output that I prefer it to my turntable.
I wouldn't spit on you for that. I have legacy equipment, but I suspect if I tried to get equivalent analogue today I would be paying in excess of £5000, and that must buy a lot of CD player into a power amp. (Pink Triangle £1500? F5 £600, Pip £3000 ?). I am only currently using CD's - not other digital formats (well, not higher formats). I don't like the sound of cd players I have heard in shops recently. I nearly added more to that last sentence, and then realised it was complete.
I know my current analogue set up can go better. Add £1000 for an FXR3 upgrade and £1000 for a Shelter 5000 MC cartridge (I shall be round with a shotgun Martin if I don't like it - kidding :D), and sort out the power amp (which would be common to both sources) and I have £7000 of front end. Customise the PT as planned - tough to price, but if Pink Triangle or Funk were to sell such a deck, I would have thought over £4000 so add another £2000. £9000 front end - yeah, that buys a lot of CD player.
Analogue of course is what we hear. I have analogue ears. I listen to analogue guitars, pianos, and soprano singing. And it doesn't sound like digital. Well - not red book digital. I am aware that just about everything I listen to that is modern vinyl will have been digitally recorded (the Katie Melua I referred to being an example). But 24 bit 96k or 192k, not 16 bit 48k. I remember the first public sighting of the Phillips Sony CD idea. Each Dac was the size of a large suitcase. If someone came up with the idea for the CD today, the standard would not be redbook. Because it is not very good - and we could easily, digitally do better.
I have 24 bit recording software which Sue and I use for our home noodling Guitar and vocals stuff, and with good mikes it sounds "live". Well it doesn't sound stainless steel in the way CD does (to me). Maybe I need to catch up with the times and get better quality digital audio software (is there a noddy's guide how to do that - last time I looked I found it all too confusing, and couldn't find any of the music I actually wanted - but that was at least 18 months ago).
So, as I have experienced listening to albums at home, analogue for me, using very good equipment, has satisfied me as being like live music. (Not EXACTLY like live - it hasn't sounded "different" in the way CD does). And it's that sound I like. And it's that sound, and - in particular, that lack of listening fatigue, which DaCapo 22 bit manages on red book CD. And whilst that is personal to my experiences, it is interesting to note that - unprompted - my wife, step son, and our friends (who happen to be trained classical musicians -so have heard a lot of live music to reference to - but otherwise are no more qualified than anybody else) all spontaneously made the same observations about the sound. (They didn't of course experience the fatigue thing - playing back to back vinyl for hours on end. They were just listening to a few bits to see the toys. Mostly they were stunned to hear the vinyl LP of their trinity college jazz band. Even with a muffling power amp!)
I have a HiFi legacy of analogue I enjoy. Like the Irishman by an unsigned cross roads in the middle of the country asked the way to Dublin, who replied "Now, if I was after getting to Dublin, I wouldn't start from here", I suspect if I started wanting to listen to albums in high quality now, I may well have concluded that analogue was too expensive. I am about to spend £1000 on a gramophone needle. My wife thinks I'm certifiable. She may be right. :mental:
purite audio
03-07-2013, 09:30
I have a couple of friends who both spent the majority of their careers in recording and mastering, they both agree that when they heard their first CD it sounded far more like the microphone feed than the vinyl copy.
Neither of them purchased vinyl after that first exposure to the new medium.
The recording quality is paramount but a well recorded CD sounds pretty good to me.
Keith.
Oldpinkman
03-07-2013, 10:47
I have a couple of friends who both spent the majority of their careers in recording and mastering, they both agree that when they heard their first CD it sounded far more like the microphone feed than the vinyl copy.
Neither of them purchased vinyl after that first exposure to the new medium.
The recording quality is paramount but a well recorded CD sounds pretty good to me.
Keith.
Wow. I have a Nimbus classical vinyl LP of that vintage, and a similar Nimbus CD - when mastering equipment was 16bit, both intended to showcase the new technology, and they fully reflect the weaknesses of early digital compared with modern recording technology. There was a lot of AAD in those early days. Of course, we are all entitled to like what we like, and there is certainly a lot of diverse opinion on here. I would just note that if I compare a basic CDP (we have a Sony CDP XE530 in the kitchen) with early "ordinary" record players (the stock technics Sl1210 I recently borrowed would be a good example, from the vintage of the first cd's), then I agree with their comment. The Sony CDP sounds more like the master than the SL1200 which sounds muffled and dull by comparison. Tonally the CD player is better. In terms of "detail" and "clarity" the CDP is better. I haven't done it for ages, but I bet I could still listen for ages to the dull LP's. CD's I don't like to listen to in my system, I might have tolerated in a poor system, where the amp and speakers did a bit of muffling.
But a good turntable system gets all the detail, clarity and tonal accuracy of CD's without the "falseness" which fatigues with time (at the expense of a few pops and crackles). This was a lot of the issue for Pink Triangle in the early days. The establishment, which effectively meant the Linn/Naim fan club, found CD and Pink Triangle equally unfamiliar in that they were very similar tonally - and very different from the warm coloured Linn/Naim sound. Of course, today that emphasis has shifted.
So - no surprise a recording engineer would think a CD sounded closer to the master in principal. He was probably listening to vinyl on a fairly ordinary record player. Or maybe he had a reference system, and just likes CD sound. I was expressing my experiences. It reminds me of that PT slowing under load letter again, where "my friend who is a musician says he can hear it". I was not seeking to establish the superiority of my argument by claiming my auditioners were a reference point because they were professional classical musicians - heaven forbid. They happened to be the friends who were there on the night, and they happen to be ex- Trinity graduates (violin, soprano, and piano). That doesn't make their opinion of hifi or anything else special. Its just who they are. I know a few local recording engineers too. A lot of them listen to music on an MP3 player most of the time - often with only one of the earphones in. When focussed on their job they are mostly focussed on tone (bright, bass heavy, mid-suck out etc) and not some of those more subtle aspects. And a cd player of the 70's was tonally closer to a master tape than most common (even studio and "professional") record players - and capable of revealing more detail.
Which brings us back to Andrei's point I was responding to- no question there is more bang per buck from CD. Good vinyl is expensive.
purite audio
03-07-2013, 10:55
I think you just prefer the slightly rolled off quality of vinyl, the intermodulation distortion acts like added reverb and can be quite pleasant, I have both vinyl and digital sources here,I am always amazesd that vinyl sounds as good as it can given its technical deficiencies.
Keith.
Which brings us back to Andrei's point I was responding to- no question there is more bang per buck from CD. Good vinyl is expensive.
Allow me to be pedantic: More bang for the buck with Digital.
I enjoy the analogue vs digital debate and I do come down on the side of digital. But let me say this: My absolute two best pieces of recorded music ever are both LPs. Stravinsky's Rite of Spring on DG with Claudio Abbado conducting and Elvis Presley on a Living Voice 45 rpm recording. When I have demo'd these I have got gasps of admiration: 'In the room' 'I can hear the breathing'. But this is a minority, from 3rd place to ... dunno 20th? all are 24 bit 96 Khz or 24 bit 192 khz recordings.
I do love my LPs and ... I know there is is no clear answer to this ... I have to work out for myself what I have to do to get the full benefit of an analogue source.
Oldpinkman
03-07-2013, 11:25
Allow me to be pedantic: More bang for the buck with Digital.
.
Assuredly. More bang for buck with Digital. My apologies. Which brings me to my other point. Can you teach me how to get all this 24 bit stuff. I was clearly too thick 18 months ago when I last gave it a bit of a go. Thanks in anticipation.
I think you just prefer the slightly rolled off quality of vinyl
What rolled off quality? Not here, guv!
Oldpinkman
03-07-2013, 17:15
Nor here, but I wearied. I was told my system was eechy screechy, for suggesting it had some detail. Now its rolled off. I like it whichever it is :)
... how to get all this 24 bit stuff.
There are quite a few options.
Usenet. You would need to have (1) a usenet provider, such as Giganews; (2) Newsreader software, such as Grabit. (3) To get full benefit you would need two more programs, Winrar and Quickpar. The former as RAR is the compression progam of choice, and the latter to correct errors. You then browse the Newsgroups of interest such as alt.binaries.sounds.lossless. The downsides of Usenet is first that it is a bit fiddly to set up - but like driving, once you have learned it is very easy. Second, Lots (the majority I am sure) is copyright.
Ripping There is software to rip DVDA and SACD. DVDA is easy enough but there is not much available. SACD is fiendishly difficult (you have to have an old Playstation to do it!). In short this this not a good option.
Web Sites My favourite is Channel Classics: http://www.channelclassics.com/ . The process is basically to follow their instructions. There is some gorgeous Vivaldi by Rachel Podger, - lots of goodies. Here are a few sites:
https://www.hdtracks.com/
http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
http://www.analekta.com/en/
http://www.linnrecords.com/
http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/index.php
http://www.bowers-wilkins.net/Society_of_Sound/
HDTracks is popular but you have to watch out what you get there. There is a fair bit of music that is nothing more than up-sampled from 16 bit 44.1 khz to 24 bit 10 trillion khz. There was a big, and mostly useful, thread over on whatsbestforum.com on the subject of flogging music that will light up the 96Khz or 192khz buttons on your Dac but in reality contain no more information. Also people like Hi-Fi News' Paul Miller is doing his best to keep the peddlers honest. Hope that gets you started. :->
Up to about a year and half ago I would always consider myself a vinyl man, these days I do not have a preference I am happy with both. If I am honest there still things my vinyl set up does in terms of bass and resolution on a well recorded LP brings, but these days I can quite happily switch between the 2
Oldpinkman
04-07-2013, 07:55
Thanks Andrei
I'll keep that as a reference source, but it sort of confirms my previous experience. It's still a bit esoteric. I had a quick browse (5 minutes) but couldn't find the titles I wanted a record of. That's the end of my attention span. There was talk (somewhere) of Apple listing its entire library in 24 bit format (doubtless with the concern of pointless up-sampling). I hate to cast myself as a technophobe, or just plain wrinklie, but I feel a bit like my dad when he went into a record shop to buy me a Christmas present. I listen to my music by hearing something I want, and walking into the HMV store (or web store) and picking it up and having it put in a bag. Where do I buy Adele 21 in 24 bit? - The question was rhetorical - just an expression that 24 bit will be for me when it is a standard format for most titles I might want, and I can go to an HMV store equivalent. Or when i have a lot of time on my hands.
Tomorrow. Maybe.
purite audio
04-07-2013, 08:28
OPM ,Do you have a dac that is capable of playing high resolution files?
Depending on the dac if they are not capable they will either simply not play the file or downsample it to whatever resolution they are capable of.
Keith.
Richard
I see your sig indicates Accountancy. My question is this: What is the collective noun for accountants?
Andrei
Answer: A column of accountants. He he!
Oldpinkman
04-07-2013, 10:48
Richard
I see your sig indicates Accountancy. My question is this: What is the collective noun for accountants?
Andrei
Answer: A column of accountants. He he!
I think you'll find its a pride ! :)
StanleyB
04-07-2013, 11:51
I think you'll find its a pride ! :)
Pride of lions waiting for an opportunistic meal;)?
Richard
I see your sig indicates Accountancy. My question is this: What is the collective noun for accountants?
Andrei
Answer: A column of accountants. He he!
I used to work for one of the Big Four and there was a joke about accountants doing the rounds a while back. I have forgotten the detail - probably just as well - but it related to multiple orifices to facilitate double-entry:eyebrows:
P
Oldpinkman
05-07-2013, 05:51
I used to work for one of the Big Four and there was a joke about accountants doing the rounds a while back. I have forgotten the detail - probably just as well - but it related to multiple orifices to facilitate double-entry:eyebrows:
P
I have my own small practice now, but when I worked for pwc had the t-shirt "accountants do it with double entry. Auditors do it with internal control"
On the back it said "Big firm member" :lol:
I have my own small practice now, but when I worked for pwc had the t-shirt "accountants do it with double entry. Auditors do it with internal control"
On the back it said "Big firm member" :lol:
:D
That reminds me of a Government agency I used to have to work with in the North East (part of the then DHSS IIRC) called ITSA Longbenton - it really needs to be said out loud for best effect...
Peter
Favorite dac's over the years
Wadia 15i (my first real proper hifi back in the day)
Belcanto dac 3.5
TAD C2000
Sand Dancin Donkey Walker
14-07-2013, 11:59
My favourite DAC's must be;
Audio Logic Co - 34MXL (I bet not many have heard of this one) current one in use.
Pink Triangle - De Capo (20 bit and 24bit filter modules)
Kinshaw - Perception DAC
All very good and would be happy to live with any of them.
Andy - SDDW
dionisio
26-07-2013, 14:43
Beresford Caiman
M2Tech Young
Audiolab MDAC
Metric Halo ULN-2
Resonessence Invicta
Notes:
The Invicta is definitely at the top of the tree, as it should be given the cost in comparison to the rest! Superb headphone amp and the SD card slot is very useful for comparing multiple versions of the same album - yes, that happens often here!
I've barely used the Metric Halo as it's in place in my (pretty much untouched) attic studio. May well be up for sale soon. But it's a lot of kit for the money, DAC and ADC etc.
The MDAC is absolutely superb for the price.
Beresford's Caiman: the gateway drug of the DAC world? Wonder how many others have started their journey there...
Take away the expensive clothes of a modern DAC and what are you left with? A tenner's worth of bits (unless it's been blinged up to look posh :lol:)
many DAC chips are now multi-function with most if not all of 'it' built in. The infamous Philips thingy many on here wet themselves over was only a couple of mm square inside the multi-pin case and things have progressed on from there.
Here's a perfectly capable simple DAC that comes with wall-wart and optical lead for just over a tenner. Sounds really good, although I'm not claiming the ends of the earth for it -
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF2637_zps4a2ffb21.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/DSCF2637_zps4a2ffb21.jpg.html)
Owned:
Beresford Caiman
The Caiman is a good launchpad into the world of DAC's. You get a half decent headphone amp, two optical and two RCA digital inputs and it acquits itself well as a basic pre-amp in an all digital system.
Beresford Bushmaster mk1
A superb sounding DAC which does most things very well indeed, although its finicky source selection routines were a deal breaker for me (hopefully Stan will have this sorted for the mkII version).
Rega DAC
My current favourite. It possesses the Bushmaster's best attributes and then some. It's a tad more analogue sounding than the BM too so consequently the Rega sounds a little more natural to my ears. The Rega doesn't have a headphone stage which is a bit of a pain, but I can live with that.
I have a Beresford Caiman and this has got to be the best DAC I've owned. I used to have an Audio Alchemy DDE V1.0 + PSU 3 which was a good starter DAC (and quite a lot of money when I bought it, if I remember correctly) but it never sounded right in my system at the time (Marantz CD65IISE, Audiolab 8000a, Linn Nexus LS250) so I vote the Caiman... although I am looking forward to the Bushmaster II and Caiman II!!
Take away the expensive clothes of a modern DAC and what are you left with? A tenner's worth of bits (unless it's been blinged up to look posh :lol:)
many DAC chips are now multi-function with most if not all of 'it' built in. The infamous Philips thingy many on here wet themselves over was only a couple of mm square inside the multi-pin case and things have progressed on from there.
Here's a perfectly capable simple DAC that comes with wall-wart and optical lead for just over a tenner. Sounds really good, although I'm not claiming the ends of the earth for it -
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF2637_zps4a2ffb21.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/DSCF2637_zps4a2ffb21.jpg.html)
I've got the Analogue to Digital version of that DAC, not bad but it needs a better PS. It has a buzzzz that I think is the switch mode supply
Best Dac I have ever owned and still use is a heavily modded Dacmagic 2i. There was an article in Hifi News in the 90's where they got Audiocom to replace just about every cap with Oscons and all the voltage regulators with Linear Technology versions. I bought one 2nd hand over 10 years ago (having owned two unmodded versions). I think it beats the new Dacmagic (2009?),
I also have a QED Digit (twin PS) LiTe Dac Ah, Modded Beresford 7510 (very good) and a DIY Chinese Dac with CS decoder.
Andrew B
26-07-2013, 18:45
I've owned a few. This won't be a complete list because my memory isn't perfect:
DPA PDM1, DPA PDM 1 series 2 (several, inc the later one with SAA7350), DPA Little Bit, DPA PDM1 series 3. Meridian 203, 203 DAC7, Micromega Microdac, Micromega Duo, Micromega T-DAC, Theta DS Pro Prime, Chord DAC.
Of these, I found only two which were way below the others. The QED Digit and the Microdac were very poor. The little Bit wasnt that great either. The rest were all decent, but really a matter of personal taste and system synergy. I'd live with any of them again and whilst I'd notice clear differences, just like I've done before, they aren't something that would make me dissatisfied enough to change one for another.
Some CD players have seemed more receptive than others to an external DAC. Best standalone CD I've ever used as a transport was clearly Denon 1520. The one which always sounded better without a DAC was Rega Planet MK1. All standalone transports I've used have been good. Not sure which has been best.
Most of these DACs are getting on a bit. I can't rule out recent advances, but I'll believe it when I hear it
walpurgis
26-07-2013, 19:17
My current Monarchy Audio M22B, it has the edge over my Theta DS Pro Progeny, but they both sound lovely!
Stratmangler
26-07-2013, 20:20
I've been delighted with the performance of my M2Tech Evo DAC from the moment it arrived.
I'd like to compare it to a Young DAC at some point, but there's no great rush to do so :eyebrows:
The Black Adder
26-07-2013, 20:42
.
realysm42
26-07-2013, 21:13
Mdac
My first foray into "high end". Excellent for the price and a true eye opener. Tbh,the mcru PSU takes it to a different level. Case of you don't know what you've got till its gone (I had a silver one on demo and sent it back for a black one). Sounded pants without it after lol! For the money, great kit.
Longdog audio vdt1 dac
OK, bit more pricey than the mdac, but utterly crushes it. Looks deeper at the music without sounding forensic, chuck anything at it and it won't break a sweat. This is my reference because its the one to beat and I won't be changing it for at least a decade. Heard salesmen that don't sell it say theyve got customers that reckon it goes toe to toe with gear costing 5x as much. This was one of my investment pieces of kit, after having it on demo. Fantastic :)
Ali Tait
26-07-2013, 21:31
Aye, Nick's dac is just wonderful. I'm still happy with the prototype, it's seen off all contenders at the Scottish Mafia meets so far. What I like most about it is that I can listen all day with no fatigue, it just lets the moozic through. I'll have the proper one, one day!
Just got a PERPETUAL TECHNOLOGIES P-3a DAC recently and it is well built and sounds very good indeed.....not an expert but it seems pretty good and can be expanded with a P1a I think and better PS....
realysm42
26-07-2013, 21:54
PSUs make a huge difference to anything in audio (if the stock ones not great), you going to get it?
Ali Tait
26-07-2013, 21:56
Cool, always wanted to hear one of those, fancy bringing to the next Scottish Mafia do?
Aye, Nick's dac is just wonderful. I'm still happy with the prototype, it's seen off all contenders at the Scottish Mafia meets so far. What I like most about it is that I can listen all day with no fatigue, it just lets the moozic through. I'll have the proper one, one day!
Get together at mine in a couple of Weeks Ali, be good to hear your Nick dac against the Young.
My favourite Dac I've used?
the Young by a country mile.
Got this second hand (with Simon SQ power supply) and it was so obviously better than my Rega Dac, which easily saw off a few of the forum favourites at a get together at mine.
I took it down to Owsten DIY meet and put it up against Nicks new DSD Dac.
Whilst Nick's dac was better, there wasnt a helluva lot in it to be honest.
We took two turns, in the test system it took swapping out the original valve pre for a "pretty special" valve pre to show the differences. Even then I don't think it would be unfair to say there wasn't really a "night and day" improvement.
Cant afford one of Nick's, so sticking with the Young! :)
That said, I'm currently upgrading the power supply (thanks Simon) and expecting better things again.
(Oh, apart from Simon SQ suggesting swapping out a smoothing capacitor in the Young at the PSU input, there hasn't been any upgrades suggested over the original design aside form minor revisions of the Motherboard design from M2Tech themselves.
Any upgrades have been from changing the wall wart PSU as far as I know)
Ali Tait
26-07-2013, 22:00
PSUs make a huge difference to anything in audio (if the stock ones not great), you going to get it?
Who me? Aye, when I've saved up enough!
will keep my eyes out for the Correction Engine if one comes up cheapish...also have the modded Beresford dac which is good too....A question on the Beresford for someone with more knowledge than me.....when my laptop is on the highface m2 tech even when not doing anything seems to take over tha dac and you cannot use anything else...when on and running the music from the hiface comes through on any selector.....Is this normal???
Cool, always wanted to hear one of those, fancy bringing to the next Scottish Mafia do?
Me too Grant.
Bring it round mate if you can come over to Motherwell.
once I get my new hip I will mate
is it a linear hip or a switch mode one? :)
I'll settle for a painless one at moment.....Motherwell aint very far and if there is not much walking would probably manage......worked for DER there for a while in the 80,s....
No, your beresford/m2tech shouldnt be doing that.
I had the beresford and all the inputs were completly seperate from each other.
I didn't have this issue...know the Young didn't do that.
StanB is a good guy, he'll advise you on this I'm sure.
cheer, thought that but was not sure....either the m2 is totally overpowering the switchgear or their is a fault in the dac....It has had all the mods done so it might be related to that....sounds bloody good though so was going to try and find a coaxial switch so that I dont have to unplug the highface when i switch to the cd player or dvd player.
sure I saw something in maplins once apon a time...
will keep an eye out for stan b..
purite audio
26-07-2013, 22:25
The new 'Orange' M2Tech HiFace dac is superb ,24/384 asyc USB , and not expensive.
Keith.
I saw that being advertised in the dealers bit and it looked good...I also have an HRT streamer 2 usb async dac and I like it a lot..it is on my 1st system...got it cheap or would have gone for the new hiface.
Thats user name StanleyB by the way, here on AOS.
Stan Beresford, who designed the dacs. :)
Nice point Gary...I better be polite:eek: .....a clever guy...thanks for the info.:)
Some CD players have seemed more receptive than others to an external DAC. Best standalone CD I've ever used as a transport was clearly Denon 1520. The one which always sounded better without a DAC was Rega Planet MK1. All standalone transports I've used have been good. Not sure which has been best.
I use a DCD 1520 in the office system and this is the transport for the ton-up Digit Opto I've been using for some time and also the new little pretender I mentioned earlier. The 1520 isn't really a slouch sonically as a complete CD player, apart from the fact that I believe it inverts the phase of the output and this I hear as a 'flatness' of perspective. Twinning the supplies to the Digit made a heck of an improvement to the extent that I maintain that even humble IC op-amps really do need a clean supply to sound transparent. The fact that these op-amps go wide out to MHz has got to have something to do with it, but I'd be delighted to be proved wrong here as it's supposition on my part...
Anyway, I know and highly respect the Rega DAC, but didn't mention it before - I wonder why? :lol: and I've always loved the original clamshell Planet, despite its awkwardness in use compared to slicker competition.
will keep my eyes out for the Correction Engine if one comes up cheapish...also have the modded Beresford dac which is good too....A question on the Beresford for someone with more knowledge than me.....when my laptop is on the highface m2 tech even when not doing anything seems to take over tha dac and you cannot use anything else...when on and running the music from the hiface comes through on any selector.....Is this normal???
Are we talking about a BM here, and if so, do you have two or more active digital sources plugged into the BM at any one time? If so the BM won't buy it, you will need to switch off all sources other than the one you are listening to. The control circuitry gets confused when it is seeing two or more active sources which can spurn some odd behaviour.
it is a Beresford tc 7510 which has all the mods APPARENTLY....NOT HAD IT LONG EITHER...THAT COULD BE THE PROBLEM.....WHEN THE HIFACE IS ON THE MUSIC COMES THROUGH ON ALL CHANNELS EVEN THOUGH PLUGGED IN TO NO 1... if the hiface is inactive but powered up the cd player in position 2 or the dvd in 3 just give out digital nonsense....unplug the highface and it works.
You will need to take this up with Stan. I had a similar problem with a BM and because I leave my gear on 24/7 it played havoc with my set up which is why I now have a Rega DAC. Hopefully Stan has sorted this issue on the mkII.
walpurgis
26-07-2013, 23:51
I'd like to try one of Stan's current DAC models.
I had one about seven years ago (can't remember the model No.) and it didn't really meet my requirements. It was very clear and clean, but I found the sound lacking in body and depth. I know Stan started his DAC business off not long before I bought mine and I'm sure things have moved on. Anyway, I've seen much praise and not much that qualifies as criticism since.
It only becomes an issue if, like me, one tends to leave all the equipment powered up. It might not have been much of an issue even then if it wasn't for the fact that I tend to use my desktop PC to work on (and monitor the forums) when I am listening to CD's. Because the PC and the CDP were hooked up to the BM and both were switched on, the BM's control circuitry would get confused because it could detect two active inputs, and this was regardless of whether the source selection was set to manual or auto. It was a situation I just couldn't live with even though the BM did sound wonderful. Sometimes the unit would freeze and need a reset to coax it back to life.
EDIT: In its confused state the BM would fart like a trooper... :lol:
Take away the expensive clothes of a modern DAC and what are you left with? A tenner's worth of bits (unless it's been blinged up to look posh :lol:)
many DAC chips are now multi-function with most if not all of 'it' built in. The infamous Philips thingy many on here wet themselves over was only a couple of mm square inside the multi-pin case and things have progressed on from there.
Here's a perfectly capable simple DAC that comes with wall-wart and optical lead for just over a tenner. Sounds really good, although I'm not claiming the ends of the earth for it -
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF2637_zps4a2ffb21.jpg (http://s132.photobucket.com/user/DSJR_photos/media/DSCF2637_zps4a2ffb21.jpg.html)
I got that one, it's not that good TBH.
Currently have ten DACs of varying types to hand, the BM continues to shine in my system although its bass was too deep in Ali's systems at the recent Owston DIY meet...at home my system cant go that low so it works well. I also occasionally play with a DIY Arcam TDA1541 NOS DAC and an MF A3.24 upsampling DAC...all good
i HAVE DEDICATED lAPTOPS FOR THE MUSIC AND WERE NOT DOING ANYTHING...well not on the surface anyways.....must try tomorrow with the laptop in sleep mode and see if it is still a problem, or if it is just because the hiface has its 5 volts up t and it technically powered up.
Ali Tait
27-07-2013, 01:14
I got that one, it's not that good TBH.
Currently have ten DACs of varying types to hand, the BM continues to shine in my system although its bass was too deep in Ali's systems at the recent Owston DIY meet...at home my system cant go that low so it works well. I also occasionally play with a DIY Arcam TDA1541 NOS DAC and an MF A3.24 upsampling DAC...all good
Ah c'mon Neal, everyone knows OB's don't do bass! :lol:
I'd like to try one of Stan's current DAC models.
I had one about seven years ago (can't remember the model No.) and it didn't really meet my requirements. It was very clear and clean, but I found the sound lacking in body and depth. I know Stan started his DAC business off not long before I bought mine and I'm sure things have moved on. Anyway, I've seen much praise and not much that qualifies as criticism since.
For the money paid you can't beat Stan's Dacs's for sound quality.
Had a few of the over the years, best you can buy for the asking price.
StanleyB
27-07-2013, 07:28
Currently have ten DACs of varying types to hand, the BM continues to shine in my system although its bass was too deep in Ali's systems at the recent Owston DIY meet.
That's one part of the frequency spectrum that had me a bit worried initially when I was busy designing the BM. Most DACs fall off the cliff at about 20Hz, partly because of the official audio specs from CD audio. A lot of speakers start to roll off at around 60Hz. But DVD audio can go down to 4Hz. I have a lot of customers who have extensive AV systems with subwoofers etc to facilitate the reproduction of those low frequency audio signals from their DVD collection. So chomping off the audio at 20Hz in line with 16Bit/44.1Kz CD audio would have robbed my customers of the ability to discover a bit more of what is hidden in many of their DVD and high resolution audio files.
Thanks for the explanation Stan, Ali's OBs can shift a serious amount of air and are not your 'normal' domestic 'speaker! :D
I've got the Analogue to Digital version of that DAC, not bad but it needs a better PS. It has a buzzzz that I think is the switch mode supply
Do you have details, Rob? I need a cheap ADC and was wondering what to buy.
Are we talking about a BM here, and if so, do you have two or more active digital sources plugged into the BM at any one time? If so the BM won't buy it, you will need to switch off all sources other than the one you are listening to. The control circuitry gets confused when it is seeing two or more active sources which can spurn some odd behaviour.
Not getting that here, Dave, never have. At least two of my three inputs are active at a time.
Not getting that here, Dave, never have. At least two of my three inputs are active at a time.
I did make it clear that mine was an early model Martin, Stan may have sorted this now. I'm not sure if Grant's issue is the same as I experienced but there do seem to be some similarities which is why I threw it out there ;)
For the money paid you can't beat Stan's Dacs's for sound quality.
Had a few of the over the years, best you can buy for the asking price.
absolutely ! I have had following in my chain: Rega, Micromega, Pioneer N-50, BM7350. They all sounded good to me over digital optical link. I still have the N-50 and the BM in two separate systems. The BM is unbeatable at that price and comes with a direct "communication link" to the designer himself.
StanleyB
29-07-2013, 08:55
I did make it clear that mine was an early model Martin, Stan may have sorted this now. I'm not sure if Grant's issue is the same as I experienced but there do seem to be some similarities which is why I threw it out there ;)
I have read numerous times about your BM and the comments about early model thing etc. But as I understand it, it was a BM that you borrowed from someone else and that you have since returned it to the legal owner. So it was not actually yours. The owner of the DAC has categorically stated to me that he has no had any such issues after checking the DAC out after he received it back.
So I am not quite clear what is the truth and what isn't. Especially since you have repeated the same thing over and over again in several threads.
Maybe BM owners can shed some light on these claims by checking the operation of their DAC and letting me know if they have the same issue or not. Let me know by email and include your purchase info. I can then work out if it is an early production issue or something else.
absolutely ! I have had following in my chain: Rega, Micromega, Pioneer N-50, BM7350. They all sounded good to me over digital optical link. I still have the N-50 and the BM in two separate systems. The BM is unbeatable at that price and comes with a direct "communication link" to the designer himself.
That direct communication is a big factor in getting peace of mind when you buy.
For a lot of folk this is worth factoring in.
Had the Rega and a Caiman which I modded the guts out of.
Preferred the Rega in my system though, but the Caiman was a good'un.
I have two active inputs on my BM and have never had a problem,i just select which source i want to listen to.Works perfectly every time.
I can only report what I experienced Stan and only posted as Grant seemed to be experiencing a similar issue. I would have done the same for any product. Had it worked properly I would still be using it, for as I have reported on here more than once, apart from this issue the BM did sound good. Also, I received the unit with the intention of buying it and the member concerned was more than happy for me to try the BM in my system for a couple of weeks before he wanted any money for it. I don't appreciate your implication that I was taking the piss, as you offered support when I asked for it and the member concerned was happy for me to do so. I also asked if you were comfortable dealing with me or whether you would rather I sent the unit back to the member concerned, who incidentally was not the original purchaser either. I hope that clears up any confusion
StanleyB
29-07-2013, 13:51
I don't appreciate your implication that I was taking the piss, as you offered support when I asked for it and the member concerned was happy for me to do so.
I am not interested in what you appreciate or what you assume I imply. That's not my problem. What I do however expect is that you do not give a false impression to those reading your comments and who assume it to be an honest factual description. At least you have clarified this time round that the DAC was not yours. It's irrelevant if you intended to buy it or not. Let's just stick to the facts as you have been reporting them several times.
I have never had problems handling technical queries from anyone who is in the possession of a product of mine, irrespective if it was bought or borrowed. I only refuse to help if it was stolen.
Coming to the point of your statement where you wrote:
If so the BM won't buy it, you will need to switch off all sources other than the one you are listening to. The control circuitry gets confused when it is seeing two or more active sources which can spurn some odd behaviour.
This is what you reported here that you experienced with the DAC that you borrowed. However you are clearly implying that this is affecting every Bushmaster even though you only experienced this on one DAC that you tried. The actual owner of the DAC did not have a similar experience. So what exactly is it that you don't appreciate that I am implying? That I had to eventually come out and challenge you with regards to what you wrote? Surely you did not expect me to let it pass unnoticed.
I do recall that you asked me to swap the DAC over for you for a new one. But since it was not your DAC to swap over in the first place, I didn't quite understand how that was supposed to work. Imagine borrowing something from someone and then doing an exchange of it with someone else. Surely few if any would accept such behaviour with something they lent to someone.
I am not interested in what you appreciate or what you assume I imply. That's not my problem. What I do however expect is that you do not give a false impression to those reading your comments and who assume it to be an honest factual description. At least you have clarified this time round that the DAC was not yours. It's irrelevant if you intended to buy it or not. Let's just stick to the facts as you have been reporting them several times.
I have never had problems handling technical queries from anyone who is in the possession of a product of mine, irrespective if it was bought or borrowed. I only refuse to help if it was stolen.
Coming to the point of your statement where you wrote:
If so the BM won't buy it, you will need to switch off all sources other than the one you are listening to. The control circuitry gets confused when it is seeing two or more active sources which can spurn some odd behaviour.
This is what you reported here that you experienced with the DAC that you borrowed. However you are clearly implying that this is affecting every Bushmaster even though you only experienced this on one DAC that you tried. The actual owner of the DAC did not have a similar experience. So what exactly is it that you don't appreciate that I am implying? That I had to eventually come out and challenge you with regards to what you wrote? Surely you did not expect me to let it pass unnoticed.
I do recall that you asked me to swap the DAC over for you for a new one. But since it was not your DAC to swap over in the first place, I didn't quite understand how that was supposed to work. Imagine borrowing something from someone and then doing an exchange of it with someone else. Surely few if any would accept such behaviour with something they lent to someone.
The highlighted sentence is absolutely untrue Stan and I expect a retraction immediately, I would never expect a new replacement for a used product. Nowhere in the quoted post have I suggested members should not buy a BM at all, the sentence "the BM won't buy it" was a figure of speech aimed at the specific unit involved, I did not mean 'every unit' as it is patently obvious that many are happy with their BM's. C'mon Stan you are not a stupid man, why make this personal? You seem to be suggesting that it was immoral of me to have possession of the unit with the intent to buy. Are you suggesting I am a thief?
anthonyTD
29-07-2013, 14:25
Guys,
I am temporarily closing this thread until we decide what to do.
A...
anthonyTD
29-07-2013, 16:56
Hi All,
I have now re-opend this thread to allow both Dave and Stan a chance to put things right here once and for all, i would therefore appreciate you give them the chance to do this without interference.
Anthony,TD...
The issue is not with the problematical BM but with the attitude and demeanour of the companies proprietor. If Stanley agrees to remove his unfounded allegation that I demanded a replacement unit then there can be progress, but not until.
StanleyB
29-07-2013, 17:28
I hope that you CAN remember that you asked me if I could remove the Auto function for you. After fitting a modified firmware chip for you you noticed a couple of issues with the new firmware code, which you branded about as a fault inherent to the BM. I have lost count of the number of times you have repeated this claim. At no time did you ask if the modified firmware code had an error that could be fixed. You asked for an exchange of the DAC itself thereby clearly implying that as far as you were concerned the fault is with the DAC, not the modified firmware code. If you insist that you did no such thing then that tells it all for me. I did mention by PM that it was a firmware issue and offered to look at the firmware issue and correct it, but I did not get a reply to that.
The other issue is that you returned the modified DAC back to the owner, instead of first getting the firmware replaced back to its original state with the Auto function working again. But you left it to the owner of the BM to sort out the aftermath of the modification you asked me to carry out. I would have expected anyone who borrowed something from me to at least return it to me in the same operational state defects and all.
And still you continue to manipulate the truth, welcome to ignore
Just a suggestion here guys, why not pick up the phone and talk it through like gentleman.
This does neither of you any favors at all, what ever the reason enter into dialogue strangely enough its a very human thing to do.
anthonyTD
29-07-2013, 17:58
I quite agree Tony,
However, it would seem they have passed that point a long time ago, Stan, i would ask that if you have proof of what you have hilighted as fact, then please pass it on to me in a message, otherwise i will have to ask you to retract your statement.
A...
Bluedroog
29-07-2013, 20:45
Any heard the renaissance invicta dac? Hugely expensive, I am curious to hear if that cost could be justified. I have some fairly worn socks so in my case that would be a no.
dionisio
29-07-2013, 21:08
Any heard the renaissance invicta dac? Hugely expensive, I am curious to hear if that cost could be justified. I have some fairly worn socks so in my case that would be a no.
I have one, it is expensive but in my system clearly bests the other DACs I've tried by a fair margin. Made some comments to that effect a few pages ago in this thread.
anthonyTD
30-07-2013, 09:50
Hi All,
As feelings were running high yesterday between Stan And Dave i had to close the thread once again while i tried to get to the bottom of what the real issue was.
The issue Dave had last was with a statement from Stan stating that Dave had indeed asked for a replacement unit, to be fair i have since asked Stan to provide evidence of this, otherwise i would need him to retract the statement, below you will see the last part of an original email between Dave and Stan which seems to confirm Stans Statement.
>> Hi Stan,
>>
>> The BM has run in now and it is sounding fab, however there remains an annoying problem. Upon first switch on or when switching from optical to coaxial, the BM to fails to lock onto the signal from the coax input. A spitting sound eminates from the speakers and I have to cycle through all the inputs to clear it, which is a bit frustrating. This also occurs when I move from streaming music in Spotify to playing files from my hard drive using Foobar 2000. Do you have an idea what might be causing this?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Dave...
>>
>>
>
Hi Stan,
I have been chatting with some of the guys on AoS and after further cases of the Bushmaster freezing yesterday evening and on two occasions today I am fairly certain there must be something specificly wrong with this unit. I have lost all confidence in its reliability therefore I would like to request that it be exchanged for another unit under warranty please?
Regards
Dave...
Now, unless Dave has something to add that is contrary to what Stan has provided, then i would ask that both just move on from this and put it behind them, both are valued members here and i am sure both would admit that with hindsight they could have handled this differently, so, lets move on and get the thread back on track.
A...
Bluedroog
30-07-2013, 19:39
I have one, it is expensive but in my system clearly bests the other DACs I've tried by a fair margin. Made some comments to that effect a few pages ago in this thread.
I don't think I've ever heard a DAC approaching that level, probably for the best! Did you compare against anything at a similar level?
I heard the Leema DAC and found it a little aggressive, the system as a whole anyway. Plenty of detail though.
Might be an obvious choice but I thought the M-DAC sounded good and for the price I find the feature set very appealing and would like to try one in my system with my Squeezebox.
accuphaseman
17-09-2013, 08:59
MF Tri-Vista 21
Still use it .Don't like the half hour warm up though.
Want to try a MF M1
icehockeyboy
17-09-2013, 10:07
I've had 4 Dacs in my time.
Beresford TC 7510
Theta Pro Progeny A
Beresford Bushmaster mk 1
Beresford Bushmaster mk 2
The Theta, with its "extras" cost over £1700 new, the Beresfords a fraction of that, and to my ears, having had a period where i used the SBT without a dac at all, believe that the Beresfords outperform the far more expensive Theta.
The mk 2 notching up the ante yet again.
And no problems with it either! :)
- Rega
- Beresford 7530
- Pioneer N-50
- Micromega MyDac
- and some others.
IMS (In my system ;-) they all sounded good. The Rega was, at the time, the most expensive one, so I sold it.
The Micromega MyDac sounded ok but made a horrible high pitched noise when switching input devices. In fact it was so loud that it made everybody jump when the volume was up. I got a replacement but the noise was still therre. With no firmware update foreseeable I sent it back.
The Beresford is unbeatble for the price IMO. I couldn't make out a significant difference between the Rega and the Beresford. I still have it.
The DAC in the N-50 is astonishingly good and the box itself doubles as a streamer. I still have it.
PS. What is new in the B 7533 ?
My favourite DAC is the Audial Model S, which is available direct from the engineer who designed it. Simply the most natural (non 'digital' sounding) DAC I've ever heard with the depth of soundstage, a lack of 'grain' that plagues most digital, and with the dynamic contrast that is expected with a high end analogue rig.
One big difference I find between CD and vinyl is the more 3D soundstage and more 'tactile' delineation between instruments with vinyl, but the Audial DAC suffers none of this
For bang for buck I would also have to vote the Beresford Bushmaster / linear supply as my favourite, putting a lot of so-called classics to shame. It is nowhere near my Audial DAC, sounds like 'very good digital' rather than 'great analogue', but at 1/10 of the price it's a no brainer.
Oldpinkman
17-09-2013, 15:54
I'd be interested to hear some serious candidates, but next time I'm visiting Rachel at Hartpury I'll put DaCapo in the boot if you have a couple of hours to spare Paul. I know it's a dinosaur and not eligible as a dac for anyone wanting to buy one, but it is my only serious point of reference (on CD). Be interesting to hear your Jolida's too :)
wee tee cee
17-09-2013, 16:03
MF Tri-Vista 21
Still use it .Don't like the half hour warm up though.
Want to try a MF M1Had a MF M1 for a couple of years, loved it in my own room/set up .....BUT.....it can be fussy partnering wise. The rest of my system is pipe and slippers so worked really well in conjunction with the MF M1 HPA I was using as a single line active pre. Gone the passive pre/non upsampling route, happy just now-still tempted to add a MK2 BM had the MK1 for a while and enjoyed it as a DAC but also as a headamp.
pete_mac
20-09-2013, 06:15
My favourite DAC that I've owned is my current audio-gd DAC3SE, but my favourites out of the DACs that I've heard are the Metrum Hex and the Aurialic Invicta. Both are supremely transparent and utterly musical in the right system. That said, both are too rich for my blood! :)
MF Tri-Vista 21
Still use it .Don't like the half hour warm up though.
Want to try a MF M1
Same DAC stage as my Tri-Vista SACD. I've not heard a DAC with better subjective speed and grip in the bass region.
Loved and hated it (reliability) for years.:)
Jerry brought round a little TEAC DAC for a minor repair yesterday. Was mightily impressed. Not quite up there with the clarity or resolution of the Jolida DAC but not far off either. After hearing a lot of DACs recently, I'm most definitely in favour of valve output stage DACs as there's some scope to tune the sound, a valve buffer/output almost always sounds better to my ears than an op-amp stage and if NOS (non over-sampling), all the better. All very much against what technical purity might suggest but the ears have helped come to that conclusion.
I am eyeing the Yulong DA8, the Mytek 192 and tha Anedio D2 because they all have line level volume control and balanced outputs.
I have had a Eastern Electric Tube Dac plus for a few months and am really enjoying it and would love to hear from any other people who use this dac.
I am eyeing the Yulong DA8, the Mytek 192 and tha Anedio D2 because they all have line level volume control and balanced outputs.
I liked the Mytek 192 but in the end the Benchmark was easier to use.
For sensible money I’m still a HRT fan. I think products like the basic streamer do more to introduce the chip based music consumers to better quality sound than all the discussions on the forums.
A Dac that does to my ears at least have a particular sound and isn’t silly money that I think performs beyond its price range is the Wavelength Proton.
Stellavox ST20 has to be on my list.
Benchmark Dac2 HGC. Well, I would wouldn’t I. I know it’s expensive, but I just haven’t heard anything better.
Never owned anything particularly esoteric/hi-end (far from it) but have had, or tried in my system...
Cambridge DacMagic (Azur)
Cambridge DacMagic 100
Beresford 7510
Beresford 7520
Beresford Caiman
M2Tech Evo
TEAC UD-H01
Out of these, the best has been the TEAC but would love to compare it to (from memory) the Evo which was mightily impressive. All the others seemed to have a certain character which whilst great for a while, like an LP12 it started to bother me. The TEAC just seems to add or subtract nothing.
It was also the cheapest. :)
I've owned a good number of DACs over the years and I would say that it's the one component that I constantly box swapped.
Ranged from the MF Trivista, a procession of NOS DACs, a Meridian 5 series, a White Noise NOS DAC shipped from Argentina with a hole drilled in the mains transformer (:eek:), a couple of valve output ones like Conrad Johnson and an extremely rare Anodyne two-box one, but my all time favourites for sound quality are all cranky old 20 bit ones :eyebrows:
Timbre TT1
PS Audio
Wadia
Entech
Monarchy Audio M22B
walpurgis
11-12-2013, 22:34
I just saw your comments Frank.
I've got the Monarchy Audio M22B (as you may know) and it is excellent. I'm awaiting the delivery of an M22C, for which I have high hopes!
I'd love to try a Wadia (or Mark Levinson). I've heard them, but never see one at a price that suits me.
I just saw your comments Frank.
I've got the Monarchy Audio M22B (as you may know) and it is excellent. I'm awaiting the delivery of an M22C, for which I have high hopes!
I'd love to try a Wadia (or Mark Levinson). I've heard them, but never see one at a price that suits me.
The M22 ranks as my second favourite Geoff, ahead of the Wadia much to my surprise. Top of the listings is the Timbre for it's detail, dynamics and "analogue" sound, but only just above the M22
I would love to try a Dax Decade, Threshold or Sonic Frontiers DAC or the LFD DAC3 with the UltraAnalog chips.
walpurgis
12-12-2013, 19:54
Monarchy Audio M22C DAC arrived today. Handy having an inbuilt pre-amp (passive I think, must read reviews). I shall report back in due course.
walpurgis
12-12-2013, 23:04
Well I've been giving the newly arrived Monarchy Audio M22C a whirl this evening and I'm impressed.
It sounds lovely, very rich and smooth wiith excellent depth and transparency. If anything it sounds slightly more refined than the M22B, but I haven't done a side by side comparison yet. It's certainly quieter mechanically, the M22B takes a little while for the mains transformer to settle and quieten in comparison. I've now got three DACs, looks like something will have to go, maybe my much loved Theta DS Pro Progeny. I suspect the Monarchy DACs may (only just) have the edge. Anybody need a very good DAC?
Nice, have also wanted to try some Monarchy gear. Interesting that the Progeny runs them close I have one in need of repair.
walpurgis
13-12-2013, 19:11
If the Theta can be fixed, it's worth doing. It's a lovely DAC, extremely lucid.
If the Theta can be fixed, it's worth doing. It's a lovely DAC, extremely lucid.
Agreed. I loved it too, I can fix it myself it's just an RCA socket issue.
My favourite DAC is the one I own...the Lite Audio DAC-83. The Burr Brown PCM-1704 ladder DAC's are the most "real" sounding chips to me, and Lite Audio has implemented them very well.
Rick.
Yes the PCM1704 are fine DACs indeed, as used in the Naim DAC and Linn CD12 player.
loonytunes
20-12-2013, 08:04
Yes the PCM1704 are fine DACs indeed, as used in the Naim DAC and Linn CD12 player.
I absolutely love a true ladder DAC in the heart of a system, to the point where I tend to exclude sigma-delta alternatives.
I absolutely love a true ladder DAC in the heart of a system, to the point where I tend to exclude sigma-delta alternatives.
Yes, I agree, but interested on your views on what the differences are?
loonytunes
22-12-2013, 16:09
Yes, I agree, but interested on your views on what the differences are?
There are a few but here are the main and obvious traits... fantastic dynamics, a good 'crunch' to the bass, and fast infectious toe tapping rhythm plus lack of haze...
Just found this " The Art of Sound" Burr Brown based Dac also with a battery power option any one tried one? looks interesting at that price
There are a few but here are the main and obvious traits... fantastic dynamics, a good 'crunch' to the bass, and fast infectious toe tapping rhythm plus lack of haze...
Interesting, I would definitely go with all
of that! Dynamics, timing and lack of haze in particular, and more natural sound especially apparent on female vocals.
I would love to try a Dax Decade, Threshold or Sonic Frontiers DAC or the LFD DAC3 with the UltraAnalog chips.
My favourites have been a DAX with the UltraAnalog chip and currently a Manley Junior 20 also with the UltraAnalog chip .
I found myself a few 1990s Weiss mastering processor 20bit DAC modules which have a UltraAnalog in each on neat little cards so I'm going to make myself some kind of Dual UltraAnalog, Non-oversampled, valve output stage DAC - my big project for 2014! Most likely with built-in upsampling to 384KHz.
Mytek DAC, good sound but fiddly to set up and ugly
Young DAC, good sound when used with a good linear psu
Bushmaster as above
M-DAC as above
Q-DAC as above
Dacmagic + as above
Heard plenty more around £1000 but were mediocre or poor so will not name them.
Mytek's a good'un, especially if you need the digital preamp.
misterpete
24-12-2013, 11:03
I recently sold my Red Wine Audio Isabella pre amp which had one of the best DACs I have ever heard built in. I auditioned many of the models listed here and and failed to find something I was happy with so decided to try the Bushmaster Mk II as a cheap stop gap.
I have got to say that it is brilliant and has to be one of the best value buys in the often extortionate world of Hi Fi.
Bit disturbing...
Compared the dac in my Marantz UD7007 universal player from its analogue outs to playing through my Young dac via spdif.
Its making music every bit as good as the Young...interesting.
Its a bloody analogue output stage thats in it!
When watching 2 channel stereo bluray its obviously better via analogue, more dynamic bigger soundstage, clearer even.
It sounded a bit flat when I first plugged it in mind, seems to be coming on song nicely.
Not got around to making up a foo cable for it, will be hooked up to the Belkin PF30 mains filter/balanced mains eventually, atm just plugged into the wall with its wet string supplied mains cable. Expecting it to get better.
Would be happy playing bluray, CD and SACD discs from its analogue outs, no need to hook it up to the dac.
biggest draw is being able to play SACD's, good knowing when I get some its output will be top notch.
Music not as good as from the server connected to the Young but didn't expect that.
loonytunes
29-12-2013, 18:22
Interesting, I would definitely go with all
of that! Dynamics, timing and lack of haze in particular, and more natural sound especially apparent on female vocals.
And this information is from listening to a much much older DAC than your 'likely to be' far better modern TDA1541A Audial DAC. Overall the true multibit DAC has a more expressive musicality about it. Some other older DACs do well in this department too, such as the DPA Little Bit 3 DAC I am listening too as I put together this response. I had recently put this DPA DAC for sale on eBay, only to quickly take it off again realising what a formidable little DAC this is as I was checking it out in my system to ensure it was working fine before it sold - it's another DAC that just 'sings'!!!
darkmatter
30-12-2013, 23:54
At several price points my budget fave is the MF v90 which sound very musical and dynamic in my system
I have been having some fun with the M2Tech Young with Palmer PS
One of my all time faves is a custom modded Orelle (XTC DAC1) which still provides a presentation to match the very best.
icehockeyboy
03-01-2014, 12:24
Bit disturbing...
Compared the dac in my Marantz UD7007 universal player from its analogue outs to playing through my Young dac via spdif.
Its making music every bit as good as the Young...interesting.
Its a bloody analogue output stage thats in it!
When watching 2 channel stereo bluray its obviously better via analogue, more dynamic bigger soundstage, clearer even.
It sounded a bit flat when I first plugged it in mind, seems to be coming on song nicely.
Not got around to making up a foo cable for it, will be hooked up to the Belkin PF30 mains filter/balanced mains eventually, atm just plugged into the wall with its wet string supplied mains cable. Expecting it to get better.
Would be happy playing bluray, CD and SACD discs from its analogue outs, no need to hook it up to the dac.
biggest draw is being able to play SACD's, good knowing when I get some its output will be top notch.
Music not as good as from the server connected to the Young but didn't expect that.
Gaz, and anyone else really, how do you just use the Dac section of something like a blu ray player or whatever?
Gaz, and anyone else really, how do you just use the Dac section of something like a blu ray player or whatever?
Any digital device must have an internal DAC in order to produce analogue outputs. If it's digital, and has stereo/surround analogue outputs (or a headphone jack), then it has a DAC. So Blu-ray and DVD players, DAB radios, MP3 players, Sky boxes etc. all have them. You can't necessarily use them for any other purpose, though.
The Grand Wazoo
03-01-2014, 13:23
As Martin says above, but just to add that some players have digital inputs where you can plumb other devices into their DAC. My Accuphase has these, so I'm able to plug the output of a DVD player or TV, for example into it, should I choose to.
I liked the Mytek 192 but in the end the Benchmark was easier to use.
For sensible money I’m still a HRT fan. I think products like the basic streamer do more to introduce the chip based music consumers to better quality sound than all the discussions on the forums.
A Dac that does to my ears at least have a particular sound and isn’t silly money that I think performs beyond its price range is the Wavelength Proton.
Stellavox ST20 has to be on my list.
Benchmark Dac2 HGC. Well, I would wouldn’t I. I know it’s expensive, but I just haven’t heard anything better.
I finally got a Yulong DA8. Once run in it is quite impressive in detail and soundstage. I would have liked to get the Benchmark II but is a bit over my budget. Anyhow, the DA8 is a clear step up from what I have known DAC-wise (Rega, Pioneer N50, Micromega, Bushmaster 7530). Although the latter is unbeatable IMHO in its price class.
starbucksboss
16-02-2014, 12:59
There seems to be a plethora of really good DACs around for reasonable cash these days and even the excellent Young DAC seems to be getting pipped to the post by rivals at half the price. Are things really progressing that fast with audibile improvements or do you think that there's other reasons such as a shift in sampling philosophy or the growing fashion for tubed buffer stages (which certainly sound good if well implemented to my ears)?
What would you offer as the top 5 DACs out there sub £1000 at present and why?
My list would include the following:
Musical Fidelity M1;
Jolida FXII Tube DAC;
Simaudio Moon 100D;
Rega DAC;
Eastern Electric Minimax DAC
Of that list, the MF DAC is possibly the leanest sounding up top but over-all quite neutral and flexible. The Simaudio seems to have been voiced similar to their other kit, slightly fuller than some in the mids and very smooth, not unlike the Rega in some ways (that seems to have slight emphasis on upper bass/mids) but for me, in my system, it'd have to be the Eastern Electric or the Jolida. DACs in general seem to vary only slightly between manufacturers (as you'd have every right to expect) until something comes along and punches your ears with sheer musicality and involvement with "nothing missing". I'd put the last two in that category. Not tempted to venture into DAC territory yet personally as I like what the droplet CDP does but for the cash, a cheap (DVD) transport and sub £1K DAC just seem to make more sense than a high end CDP these days.
I agree with thenM1 ( I just bought clic...so good I bought two!) sound was just a revelation!
SantanaCorreia
13-06-2018, 22:30
Guys,
Between these 3, with one would you pick?
Rega DAC
M2tech Young MK1
M-DAC
Bigman80
13-06-2018, 22:34
Guys,
Between these 3, with one would you pick?
Rega DAC
M2tech Young MK1
M-DACThe M2TECH is a helluva DAC, I was really impressed by it. By far and a way the best DAC I have heard BUT it won't work with Windows 10 which resulted in it being sold. A shame.
I can't imagine the other two even being close but haven't heard them.
Ninanina
13-06-2018, 22:43
When I owned only valve amps the best Dac I used was the Audio Note Dac One 1x Signature
I've also owned a Rega Dac which was pretty good
I now own the Naim Dac which really lifted the performance of the CD5 XS and seems to match the Supernait 2 very well
SantanaCorreia
14-06-2018, 00:56
The M2TECH is a helluva DAC, I was really impressed by it. By far and a way the best DAC I have heard BUT it won't work with Windows 10 which resulted in it being sold. A shame.
I can't imagine the other two even being close but haven't heard them.I use Mac but I supose that an adapter fim USB to spidif would do the trick no?
Back to the question what did you enjoy the most? What kind of amp did you have?
Enviado do meu HTC_M10h através do Tapatalk
Had Young mk1 with linear power supply, terrific sound cost a lot more to better it in what I have now.
The Mk3 will sound even better and is comoatible with windows 10.
jandl100
14-06-2018, 06:29
Guys,
Between these 3, with one would you pick?
Rega DAC
M2tech Young MK1
M-DAC
I'd get a XiangSheng DAC-01A.
Fit it with a Western Electric 396A valve and it's even better.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XiangSheng-DAC-01A-DAC-Tube-24Bit-192Khz-USB-Decoders-Headphone-Pre-Amp-EU/173305605032?hash=item2859d1aba8:g:2AgAAOSwDPNa8AW z
I have owned all of the 3 you mention, and in my opinion the XiangSheng kicks them all into the long grass.
I've owned much more expensive DACs as well. The XS beats them all. In my opinion.
Another very strong contender (and currently in use in my system) is a SMSL M8 DAC. Fit it with a £50 (60 Euro) linear PSU and it's even better.
Some of the electronics coming out of China these days is scarily good and ridiculously low cost.
If you don't want to go the Chinese route then the Beresford SEG will also in my opinion better all of those you mention.
Bigman80
14-06-2018, 09:39
I'd get a XiangSheng DAC-01A.
Fit it with a Western Electric 396A valve and it's even better.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XiangSheng-DAC-01A-DAC-Tube-24Bit-192Khz-USB-Decoders-Headphone-Pre-Amp-EU/173305605032?hash=item2859d1aba8:g:2AgAAOSwDPNa8AW z
I have owned all of the 3 you mention, and in my opinion the XiangSheng kicks them all into the long grass.
I've owned much more expensive DACs as well. The XS beats them all. In my opinion.
Another very strong contender (and currently in use in my system) is a SMSL M8 DAC. Fit it with a £50 (60 Euro) linear PSU and it's even better.
Some of the electronics coming out of China these days is scarily good and ridiculously low cost.
If you don't want to go the Chinese route then the Beresford SEG will also in my opinion better all of those you mention.Did the M2TECH DAC have the linear power supply, Jerry?
I am stunned you think the XS is better. To me, the lower registers of the M2TECH were just completely better. Timbral quality was better, and the pure depth and clarity of the M2TECH beat the XS all ends up. Soundstage was bigger too.
Since the XS has had a Telefunken fitted and a "Fancy" mains cable, I will admit the gap is less now to probably "slightly" better.
What I would say is, but a XS for £100, send it to Firebottle for his mods (done in mine) put a Telefunken valve in (or whatever) put a "fancy" mains cabke on it and THEN it's a real contender and I always prefer a valve in the system. It is a very good DAC now.
Clive197
14-06-2018, 10:01
While I appreciate that the subject is DACs at the £1000 price point, that was back when this thread started in 2014. On that basis I would suggest then try Chord DACs which in this case would be the Qutest or in the now obsolete 2Qute.
jandl100
14-06-2018, 10:08
Did the M2TECH DAC have the linear power supply, Jerry?
I am stunned you think the XS is better. To me, the lower registers of the M2TECH were just completely better. Timbral quality was better, and the pure depth and clarity of the M2TECH beat the XS all ends up. Soundstage was bigger too.
Since the XS has had a Telefunken fitted and a "Fancy" mains cable, I will admit the gap is less now to probably "slightly" better.
What I would say is, but a XS for £100, send it to Firebottle for his mods (done in mine) put a Telefunken valve in (or whatever) put a "fancy" mains cabke on it and THEN it's a real contender and I always prefer a valve in the system. It is a very good DAC now.
Hmm, it is a bit baffling that we have such different views on the XiangSheng and its competitors - although your modding suggestions seem to bring the M2Tech and XS almost to parity.
I would be tempted to put it down to different musical tastes, for me bass quality is not at the top of my list.
But ... Justin user211 is also amazed by the XS and he is a total bass fruitcake, if it pleases him then there can't be much wrong with the bass at all.
No, I don't think I did listen to the M2Tech with a linear PSU - I did have one on order but cancelled it as I was so disappointed with the bland ordinariness of its basic sound that I thought it would just throwing good money after bad and would be polishing a turd, as it were.
Maybe I missed out there, but I suspect not.
I'd bet our different opinions are just because we are after different things from an audio system.
Bigman80
14-06-2018, 10:31
Hmm, it is a bit baffling that we have such different views on the XiangSheng and its competitors - although your modding suggestions seem to bring the M2Tech and XS almost to parity.
I would be tempted to put it down to different musical tastes, for me bass quality is not at the top of my list.
But ... Justin user211 is also amazed by the XS and he is a total bass fruitcake, if it pleases him then there can't be much wrong with the bass at all.
No, I don't think I did listen to the M2Tech with a linear PSU - I did have one on order but cancelled it as I was so disappointed with the bland ordinariness of its basic sound that I thought it would just throwing good money after bad and would be polishing a turd, as it were.
Maybe I missed out there, but I suspect not.
I'd bet our different opinions are just because we are after different things from an audio system.The mods have really brought the XS into the realms of top quality and I wouldn't have bought it had it not been for them.
I am convinced the linear PSU raises the game for the M2TECH and it's a shame you didn't get the chance.
I agree that we are probably listening to different things. As long as we are all ok with our gear, it's no problem.
SantanaCorreia
14-06-2018, 11:48
Dear Jerry,
Your inputs are very welcome as well as all the rest.
I know very little about audio and really don't understand very well the DAC technology, nor very interested in (I am a Vet). What I know is what heard.
The fact that 100 euro DAC can to a face-to-face with DACs 10 times its price means much. The tech is evolving very quickly or the Chinese are much better than the rest.
I will order that XS DAC. It is not expensive so it means I can buy another one latter or keep it as a headphone amp, if I needed.
The DAC I use nowadays was talked about here so I went for it. The IQaudio Dac. For the price I believe it is the best I had. My CD player is on par with it and the price was 10 times higher. Also have a Dragonfly for my headphones. I am really an headphone guy, but enjoy my stereo more as the years go by.
Does the XS need a linear power supply? Were can I buy the valve mentioned?
Many thanks.
SantanaCorreia
14-06-2018, 11:51
Dear Bigman80,
What does this mod consist of? Who does it?
Many thanks.
SantanaCorreia
14-06-2018, 11:52
Dear Clive,
Those are hard to find here. I will have to consider other options.
Bigman80
14-06-2018, 12:03
Dear Bigman80,
What does this mod consist of? Who does it?
Many thanks.Firebottle of this forum did mine as it was his originally.
You'd have to ask him the details!
jandl100
14-06-2018, 12:05
Dear Jerry,
Your inputs are very welcome as well as all the rest.
I know very little about audio and really don't understand very well the DAC technology, nor very interested in (I am a Vet). What I know is what heard.
The fact that 100 euro DAC can to a face-to-face with DACs 10 times its price means much. The tech is evolving very quickly or the Chinese are much better than the rest.
I will order that XS DAC. It is not expensive so it means I can buy another one latter or keep it as a headphone amp, if I needed.
The DAC I use nowadays was talked about here so I went for it. The IQaudio Dac. For the price I believe it is the best I had. My CD player is on par with it and the price was 10 times higher. Also have a Dragonfly for my headphones. I am really an headphone guy, but enjoy my stereo more as the years go by.
Does the XS need a linear power supply? Were can I buy the valve mentioned?
Many thanks.
Hi Luis
Excellent - I think you will be pleased with the XS DAC.
The WE 396A can, I think, only be bought from the USA.
Here is one on eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Western-Electric-2C51-396A-Vacuum-Tube-Very-Strong-Balanced-3-Available/401549084138?hash=item5d7e30c5ea:g:aLAAAOSw8SpbGZN C
But don't worry too much about getting one straight away, in my opinion it sounds great with the valve the DAC comes with.
A cheaper option is to buy a Reflektor 5670 valve - not as good as the WE, but still a good upgrade. - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-new-old-stock-Reflektor-6N3P-E-5670-equivalent-double-triode-valves-tubes/382387181898?hash=item59080d594a:g:9yQAAOSw8H1ajHV R
I don't think you can easily use a linear power supply as there is no separate PSU box with the XS, so some internal work would be required to connect it.
Hope that helps. :)
Bit disturbing...
Compared the dac in my Marantz UD7007 universal player from its analogue outs to playing through my Young dac via spdif.
Its making music every bit as good as the Young...interesting.
Its a bloody analogue output stage thats in it!
.
This is interesting. I tried a Young DAC in my system, using a Pioneer 757 universal player as a transport. There was no appreciable difference between the Young and the DAC in the Pioneer. I was quite surprised at the time, as was the owner of the DAC.
SantanaCorreia
14-06-2018, 13:59
This is interesting. I tried a Young DAC in my system, using a Pioneer 757 universal player as a transport. There was no appreciable difference between the Young and the DAC in the Pioneer. I was quite surprised at the time, as was the owner of the DAC.Probably dependes on the system.
Enviado do meu HTC_M10h através do Tapatalk
Probably dependes on the system.
Enviado do meu HTC_M10h através do Tapatalk
That seems unlikely to me, but I suppose it is possible. Does make any discussion of what DAC is best completely pointless if it is true of course.
jandl100
14-06-2018, 14:27
It does tie in with my view that the M2Tech DAC is nothing special. ;)
But maybe not. :D
I think it depends on who is doing the listening!
montesquieu
14-06-2018, 14:29
The mods have really brought the XS into the realms of top quality and I wouldn't have bought it had it not been for them.
I am convinced the linear PSU raises the game for the M2TECH and it's a shame you didn't get the chance.
I agree that we are probably listening to different things. As long as we are all ok with our gear, it's no problem.
I had a Young DAC ages ago and quite liked it, it got replaced by my first Audio Note DAC but memories are quite fond. I bought one again recently for the study system which had an Avondale PSU rather than the original wall wart, and to my ears (albeit based on a memory from about 7-8 years ago) it seems appreciably improved, of course all my other bits have improved as well since then so who knows.
I'm convinced the actual digital to audio conversion chip selection makes very little difference to a DAC's sound, it's pretty much all down to the output stage, in which case it makes sense that PSU can potentially make a huge difference.
Bigman80
14-06-2018, 14:30
Tom, I forgot the wall-wart!!!! I will send tomorrow. PM your address mate. Sorry...again!
I had a Young DAC ages ago and quite liked it. I bought one again recently for the study system which had an Avondale PSU and to my ears (albeit based on a memory from about 7-8 years ago) it seems appreciably improved, of course all my other bits have improved as well since then so who knows.
I'm convinced the actual digital to audio conversion chip selection makes very little difference to a DAC's sound, it's pretty much all down to the output stage, in which case it makes sense that PSU can potentially make a huge difference.
montesquieu
14-06-2018, 14:32
Tom, I forgot the wall-wart!!!! I will send tomorrow. PM your address mate. Sorry...again!
And I posted without checking whose comment I was replying to !
Lawrence001
14-06-2018, 21:12
It does tie in with my view that the M2Tech DAC is nothing special. ;)
But maybe not. :D
I think it depends on who is doing the listening!I had one for a week, quickly moved it on. It had the Avondale PSU and I tried it with valve and SS amplification.
Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk
There was a reason it was considered a giant killer...
as they say...back in the Day.
Look up the big Dac bake off on Pinkfish, Young had more than a few positive comments compared to the competition.
If your interested, look it up its educational.
Still use mine in the Office system, way better than I’ll ever need in that application, Happy to know though it’s better than I’ll ever need.
jandl100
15-06-2018, 21:28
The Young seems to be one of those Marmite products - you either love it or hate it.
SantanaCorreia
16-06-2018, 11:21
The Young seems to be one of those Marmite products - you either love it or hate it.Took a quick look on that Pink Fish forum and could conclude one thing.
There is no better dac and the price tag is something that depends more on the manufacturers plan than on the product.
If the test had only been done without knowibg what dac was being tested...
Enviado do meu HTC_M10h através do Tapatalk
The Young seems to be one of those Marmite products - you either love it or hate it.
Don't really understand why anyone would hate it. I didn't hate it, it just didn't offer anything additional over the DAC in the player being used as a transport. Possibly a better transport might have let it do its thing some more, I don't know, didn't try that.
I heard Jerry's Young DAC in my system. I wasn't enamoured with it.
With a WE 396A in the Xiang I would say there's little point in going for anything else. It is such a good valve IMHO you'll be hard pressed to find anything better. That said there's no accounting for taste.
SantanaCorreia
17-06-2018, 23:40
Dear friends (allow me to call you that),
What do you think of these specs?
https://ibb.co/hTiq2y
https://ibb.co/hTiq2y
I know specs are not the way to go, but certainly gives an idea.
Recently obtained an Audio Analogue Vivace dac and have to admit to being rather impressed sonically at least. Bit cumbersome physically and in user friendliness but very musical presentation to my ears. Anyone else familiar with it?
Clive197
23-07-2018, 09:15
Working on the fact that the £1000 ceiling was introduced 5 yrs ago, I would like to recommend the Chord Qutest dac at £1195. This dac is the best I’ve heard against the commonly mentioned MDac and MF etc. So much so that I put my wallet instead of my mouth into it and purchased this very small and unpretty box. Sound wise the Qutest out performs DACs at considerable more money with its neutrality and definition. Just my opinion of coarse.
It does tie in with my view that the M2Tech DAC is nothing special. ;)
But maybe not. :D
I think it depends on who is doing the listening!
I love mine (it's the one I bought from you!). I remember telling you that I wasn't impressed that impressed with it initially. But, then it grew and grew and grew on me. I find it musical, non fatiguing, I like the upsampling. It is detailed but I don't find it fatiguing at all. I do use it with either a valve pre or a Stax valve headphone amp. I'm not sure I'd like it so much in an all solid state set up. I've only ever run it from a lithium battery and wouldn't fancy using it from the supplied cheap walwart.
I have got an itch at the moment to try something else, a valve dac appeals but I suspect I would be disappointed with the Xieng Sha (pleasantly disappointed but still). The Chord Hugo TT seems to be a giant killer but £2k for a pretty small improvement it is not sensible. If I was listening using my monoblocs and valve pre all the time an upgrade would be more rewarding, but via a Stax T6-001 it might well not show through.
I was very tempted by an older MBS platinum dac last week but managed to avoid temptation. By the time I'm using my monoblocs again a Chord Hugo TT will be about £500 and even Lampizators might be affordable.
Stryder5
23-07-2018, 12:09
I love mine (it's the one I bought from you!). I remember telling you that I wasn't impressed that impressed with it initially. But, then it grew and grew and grew on me. I find it musical, non fatiguing, I like the upsampling. It is detailed but I don't find it fatiguing at all. I do use it with either a valve pre or a Stax valve headphone amp. I'm not sure I'd like it so much in an all solid state set up. I've only ever run it from a lithium battery and wouldn't fancy using it from the supplied cheap walwart.
I have got an itch at the moment to try something else, a valve dac appeals but I suspect I would be disappointed with the Xieng Sha (pleasantly disappointed but still). The Chord Hugo TT seems to be a giant killer but £2k for a pretty small improvement it is not sensible. If I was listening using my monoblocs and valve pre all the time an upgrade would be more rewarding, but via a Stax T6-001 it might well not show through.
I was very tempted by an older MBS platinum dac last week but managed to avoid temptation. By the time I'm using my monoblocs again a Chord Hugo TT will be about £500 and even Lampizators might be affordable.
Jolida Glass FX Tube Dac, but with some decent valves, not the originals.
The T+A Dac 8 is tempting (but possibly not enough of an upgrade from a Young dac).
I heard a DCS cd player with a Nagra amp and Harbeth speakers at Scalford which sounded sublime.
Loving my current dac, a PS Audio Directstream.
More musical than a very musical thing, its good.
Free ongoing upgrades to the FPGA code, this one will see me out I think.
Spectral Morn
23-07-2018, 13:52
Don't really understand why anyone would hate it. I didn't hate it, it just didn't offer anything additional over the DAC in the player being used as a transport. Possibly a better transport might have let it do its thing some more, I don't know, didn't try that.
Transports and the quality of the digital cable used, can make a massive difference.
Current DACs in use AMR DP777 and a Veracity Mystra. The Esoteric D5 I consider part of the Esoteric player (P5 Transport) but it is a stand alone in its own right. Only other DACs kicking around, unused at mine, are an MSB Link DAC and a Luxman DA100.
Loving my current dac, a PS Audio Directstream.
More musical than a very musical thing, its good.
Free ongoing upgrades to the FPGA code, this one will see me out I think.
Yes, that one is very well reviewed too and well worth consideration. What does it do better than the Young and by what margin? What is the system that separates the signal from transport to DAC called again and are you using it?
Transports and the quality of the digital cable used, can make a massive difference.
Current DACs in use AMR DP777 and a Veracity Mystra. The Esoteric D5 I consider part of the Esoteric player (P5 Transport) but it is a stand alone in its own right. Only other DACs kicking around, unused at mine, are an MSB Link DAC and a Luxman DA100.
I agree the transport makes a difference. There's no mystery there. That's why I mentioned it. As for the cable I am sceptical but I'm not totally unconvinced that it matters.
Yes, that one is very well reviewed too and well worth consideration. What does it do better than the Young and by what margin? What is the system that separates the signal from transport to DAC called again and are you using it?
Was the first Dac I heard Tristan that significantly improved on the Young in all areas.
Looked at upgrading the Young a couple of.times and nothing was enough of an improvement tbh.
Had to live on toast n beans for a few months and save up hard to get that improvement I was looking for.
It did what the Young did.(and I liked) but much more of it, as well as adding much more musicality and a feeling of instruments sounding and 'feeling' real and in the room.
Timbre, air, texture of different instruments...all that good stuff.
Never heard anything like it.
Its different from other dacs in that it converts everything you feed it to 20 x DSD, does its digital magic thru its FPGA then low pass filters it through an output transformer as double rate DSD - so no traditional output stage.
For reference I'd modded my Young and powered it with a linear power supply, had it up against a Naim Dac (was prepeared to buy one as an upgrade) but didn't feel I was missing anything.
The Naim dealer was a bit shocked and wanted to put an expensive Naim power supply on it to bring out the best it could do.
Sorry...no thanks! :)
Had been curious about the Drectstream since it first came out because of the DSD thing, but couldn’t afford it at the time.
Loved my Young, pissed all over the MDac back in the day and was quite happy, until I started going on American hifi forums and got a different perspective.
Directstream Dac kept coming up...when I read that Mastering Engineers like Steve Hoffman, Gus Skinnas and Kevin Gray had one in their home system I sat up and paid attention.
Good enough for them...etc...absolutely.
The Directstream Dac makes the Young sound bit like a toy to be honest, still have mine in the 2nd system and did a comparison recently.
Think Brian and Grants Chinese valve output stage dac is very good..very musical and the one I'd be going for if starting afresh.
The connection your thinking of is i2s I think?
The Directstream has two i2s inputs, will be using one of those when I get the i2s output board for my Oppo 203.
Spectral Morn
24-07-2018, 09:47
I agree the transport makes a difference. There's no mystery there. That's why I mentioned it. As for the cable I am sceptical but I'm not totally unconvinced that it matters.
I wish everyone who is sceptical, or closed minded about transport importance could have been in my listening room the day I compared an Esoteric P3 to a P5, the P3 destroyed the P5, anyone, and I mean anyone should have been able to hear that, the improvement on inserting the P3 into the disc spinning duty was massive. The elephant in the room though was the ridiculous amount of noise the transport made while spinning SACDs, so loud I decided not to keep it. I just don't understand why very few SACD transports can't spin a disc siliently, particularly considering the cost of many of them.
I wish everyone who is sceptical, or closed minded about transport importance could have been in my listening room the day I compared an Esoteric P3 to a P5, the P3 destroyed the P5, .
Anyone sceptical about the transport affecting the sound needs to read up a bit. Doesn't just apply to cd transports, anything feeding a DAC - like a laptop - has the potential to transmit noise along with the 'digital' signal (which although it is 'digital' is still just variations in voltage the same as any analogue signal is).
Synergy, synergy, synergy...
Lawrence001
24-07-2018, 22:13
Synergy, synergy, synergy...Exactly what I've been going through. Was very much enjoying my Olive 04 through a Metrum Octave recently, then got a Liv Zen at the same time as my Tri Vista came back from repair and hooked them up (via an m2tech hiFace 1). The sound was broadly similar so I put the 2 dacs on a par with similar sound. A few weeks later decided to go back to the Octave - horrible, flat and lifeless. For a while I thought I had previously overestimated the Octave, so went back to the Tri Vista. The next week changed the source back to the Olive. Sounded brash and harsh. Changed dac to the Octave again and I was back to the lovely sound I remembered. I suspect the Octave likes a good source while the Tri Vista can flatter a poorer one (in terms of the usb/hiface interface).
Sent from my BLN-L21 using Tapatalk
loonytunes
25-07-2018, 07:53
There seems to be a plethora of really good DACs around for reasonable cash these days and even the excellent Young DAC seems to be getting pipped to the post by rivals at half the price. Are things really progressing that fast with audibile improvements or do you think that there's other reasons such as a shift in sampling philosophy or the growing fashion for tubed buffer stages (which certainly sound good if well implemented to my ears)?
What would you offer as the top 5 DACs out there sub £1000 at present and why?
My list would include the following:
Musical Fidelity M1;
Jolida FXII Tube DAC;
Simaudio Moon 100D;
Rega DAC;
Eastern Electric Minimax DAC
Of that list, the MF DAC is possibly the leanest sounding up top but over-all quite neutral and flexible. The Simaudio seems to have been voiced similar to their other kit, slightly fuller than some in the mids and very smooth, not unlike the Rega in some ways (that seems to have slight emphasis on upper bass/mids) but for me, in my system, it'd have to be the Eastern Electric or the Jolida. DACs in general seem to vary only slightly between manufacturers (as you'd have every right to expect) until something comes along and punches your ears with sheer musicality and involvement with "nothing missing". I'd put the last two in that category. Not tempted to venture into DAC territory yet personally as I like what the droplet CDP does but for the cash, a cheap (DVD) transport and sub £1K DAC just seem to make more sense than a high end CDP these days.
I recently auditioned the JKenny Ciunas ISO-DAC in my own home- this DAC is superb! The highs are incredible with superb delicate but finely detailed treble and a very expressive midrange - just sheer musicality on a level in digital I have not experienced before! It also flies in the face of those that think "all DACs sound the same" - the sound quality improvements are so apparent you can't help but notice! You've gotta try this and find out for yourself; it is however a USB only DAC - in my case I hooked it up to an AURALiC Mini. Seriously, try it for yourself - if you have a DAC that sounds better - I want to know what it is!!
Still using my Audial Model S. 5yrs now, it’s just incredibly non-fatiguing and natural, but much more open than usual NOS DACs. It beats my vinyl front end by quite a margin.
I recently auditioned the JKenny Ciunas ISO-DAC in my own home- this DAC is superb! The highs are incredible with superb delicate but finely detailed treble and a very expressive midrange - just sheer musicality on a level in digital I have not experienced before! It also flies in the face of those that think "all DACs sound the same" - the sound quality improvements are so apparent you can't help but notice! You've gotta try this and find out for yourself; it is however a USB only DAC - in my case I hooked it up to an AURALiC Mini. Seriously, try it for yourself - if you have a DAC that sounds better - I want to know what it is!!
They’re are on discount just now too, €450 instead of €600 [emoji6]
loonytunes
02-08-2018, 09:24
They’re are on discount just now too, €450 instead of €600 [emoji6]
Yes - and the good thing is that you can try the ISO-DAC out for yourself over 30 days - if you're not happy that it doesn't walk all over your current favourite DAC - just send it back.
StanleyB
02-08-2018, 09:27
Yes - and the good thing is that you can try the ISO-DAC out for yourself over 30 days - if you're not happy that it doesn't walk all over your current favourite DAC - just send it back.
Forum members have been able to take up that offer on my DACs for years now. Glad to see that other sellers have seen the sense behind that.
SantanaCorreia
17-08-2018, 21:26
I got the topping D30.
Wont comment for now... [emoji21]
Enviado do meu HTC_M10h através do Tapatalk
I got the topping D30.
Wont comment for now... [emoji21]
Enviado do meu HTC_M10h através do Tapatalk
Now you've had it for a while what are your thoughts?
I have as of Friday 31/08/18, become the owner of my first ever owned standalone DAC.
I have only been listening to CD in a HiFi system since January 2017.
The following was all prompted by my wife, who after accompanying me to HiFi Fanatics friends home during the Xmas Break in 2016, demanded she was given her HiFi system put back into service.
Since January 2017, I have been re-assembling our System, after a Too Long Absence from enjoying the system set up and functioning.
To date, this time period has also encouraged me to engage in HiFi in a way that was not commonly available when I was active in the past, most time spent with HiFi outside of the home, was at Events/Shows or Dealers, with occasional visits to or from friends, with shared interest.
During 2017/18 forums activity and social events organised by forums, have been a effective fuel to my enthusiasm. I have put a few miles on the vehicle taking part.
I listened to CD on my system in January 2017 only because I was unsure of how to set up the vinyl to its best, "that problem still remains" and the CD option was viewed as more simple to achieve.
My Son's Cambridge Azur 540C was confiscated from his bedroom, the CD's both he and my daughter had as well as the cars collection were gathered and music was once more filling our living room from our long time stored system.
As for analytical review, we had music. "Hoo Rah".
My friend who is responsible for my wife's size 7 boot up my backside, in relation to reassembling the system,
is also a CD Player Modification Expert, he has done wonders with valve mods in ways that far excel the usual tube output stages. Over the last few years, he has fine tuned his works, to a finesse, that I can say to my ears is a reference, I have heard tweaked variations of these works with boutique components installed.
At the end of a recent loan period of a Modified CD Player, it was agreed that before it leaves my home, it would be listened to on my system by its owner, and A/B trialed against a Vinyl Set Up.
The comparisons were easy to control due to the Slagle AVC and the Alicia Keys CD/Vinyl were a very close volume match. These were not the only Albums used.
The only thing that was a obvious unequal part to the set up were we did not have enough of one type of interconnects to allow for both sources to be matched with IC Cables.
The result was for me great, all of my friends hard work had paid off, and the differences between the CD/Vinyl were very hard to differentiate with a negative response, and if any source was listened to as a only source, there would not be any feeling of a need to exchange back to the other.
Slight differences in depth of Bass notes, vocal projection were the only immediate differences when volume was matched, not any shaming the other into a defeat. The CDP owner was commenting on a slight variation in Soundstaging, with the CDP feeling a little wider and the Vinyl feeling a little deeper.
Since this time a option came up on a DAC, it is a imported model and has undergone modifications, by the designer, who has advised on my friends CDP Modifications. It has two valve regulated Power Supplies, a valve output stage and some mod's done to the chips.
I picked it up from my friends who had extensively trialed it against his Modded CDP's, he had pre-informed me I was going to be surprised at how good it performs.
I heard it attached to a unmodded Arcam CD73 and it sounded to me very organic and involving and I settled into the replay in a very relaxed mind.
I then heard it with a Sony CDP and it was more forward and brighter but still very impressive.
My friend who has lived and breathed Modifying CDP's for may years, shared my thoughts that the CD73 worked excellently with the DAC. He also told me if he was not having his GM70 SE Amps built, I would not be buying this DAC. I take it he has found a worthy competitor for his Modded CDP's.
I have been using it through Saturday attached to the Cambridge Azur 540C, it is very very good, I have two
75 Ohm Digital Cables, One a very expensive pure silver design, produced by the DAC's Designer and one a
Mapleshade Clearview Excaliber Plus. The system warmed up using the Silver Design Cable, and after about 4 hours, I was sure I had my ear into the Sound Quality. I swapped out the Silver IC for the Mapleshade.
The effect of the Mapleshade was substantial, it produced more detail and smoothed the highs to a real not usually heard quality, I played with other interconnects between DAC/Preamp, and there effect on SQ was immediately picked up on.
I then put the Silver IC between DAC/Preamp on one channel and this was superb, the whole presentation took on a different dimension for the better. After about 30 minutes I done the same cable sequence for the Mapleshade DAC/Preamp, putting the Silver IC back to the CDP/DAC position. This was not so appealing as the reversed method.
As the above is all subjective, I have invited a friend over who has no experience with my system, but heard my amps at the Owston Meeting. He has a long history with HiFi and DIY Device Builds, Phonostages, Amps, DAC's and Speakers.
If there is time, I will present all the cable comparisons and a CD vs Vinyl should be on the cards.
I do believe my search for a DAC is on hold, it feels like for good at present, I feel very lucky to have been introduced to this DAC and given the purchase option.
The Icing on the Cake is there is a small cardboard box supplied with the DAC, it contains a Modded Chip, that is claimed by the designer to be a further improvement to the one installed at present. It is not in place as the agreement was to let me listen to a non-upgraded model before I place the upgraded modded chip into the circuit.
Bigman80
02-09-2018, 10:07
I have as of Friday 31/08/18, become the owner of my first ever owned standalone DAC.
I have only been listening to CD in a HiFi system since January 2017.
The following was all prompted by my wife, who after accompanying me to HiFi Fanatics friends home during the Xmas Break in 2016, demanded she was given her HiFi system put back into service.
Since January 2017, I have been re-assembling our System, after a Too Long Absence from enjoying the system set up and functioning.
To date, this time period has also encouraged me to engage in HiFi in a way that was not commonly available when I was active in the past, most time spent with HiFi outside of the home, was at Events/Shows or Dealers, with occasional visits to or from friends, with shared interest.
During 2017/18 forums activity and social events organised by forums, have been a effective fuel to my enthusiasm. I have put a few miles on the vehicle taking part.
I listened to CD on my system in January 2017 only because I was unsure of how to set up the vinyl to its best, "that problem still remains" and the CD option was viewed as more simple to achieve.
My Son's Cambridge Azur 540C was confiscated from his bedroom, the CD's both he and my daughter had as well as the cars collection were gathered and music was once more filling our living room from our long time stored system.
As for analytical review, we had music. "Hoo Rah".
My friend who is responsible for my wife's size 7 boot up my backside, in relation to reassembling the system,
is also a CD Player Modification Expert, he has done wonders with valve mods in ways that far excel the usual tube output stages. Over the last few years, he has fine tuned his works, to a finesse, that I can say to my ears is a reference, I have heard tweaked variations of these works with boutique components installed.
At the end of a recent loan period of a Modified CD Player, it was agreed that before it leaves my home, it would be listened to on my system by its owner, and A/B trialed against a Vinyl Set Up.
The comparisons were easy to control due to the Slagle AVC and the Alicia Keys CD/Vinyl were a very close volume match. These were not the only Albums used.
The only thing that was a obvious unequal part to the set up were we did not have enough of one type of interconnects to allow for both sources to be matched with IC Cables.
The result was for me great, all of my friends hard work had paid off, and the differences between the CD/Vinyl were very hard to differentiate with a negative response, and if any source was listened to as a only source, there would not be any feeling of a need to exchange back to the other.
Slight differences in depth of Bass notes, vocal projection were the only immediate differences when volume was matched, not any shaming the other into a defeat. The CDP owner was commenting on a slight variation in Soundstaging, with the CDP feeling a little wider and the Vinyl feeling a little deeper.
Since this time a option came up on a DAC, it is a imported model and has undergone modifications, by the designer, who has advised on my friends CDP Modifications. It has two valve regulated Power Supplies, a valve output stage and some mod's done to the chips.
I picked it up from my friends who had extensively trialed it against his Modded CDP's, he had pre-informed me I was going to be surprised at how good it performs.
I heard it attached to a unmodded Arcam CD73 and it sounded to me very organic and involving and I settled into the replay in a very relaxed mind.
I then heard it with a Sony CDP and it was more forward and brighter but still very impressive.
My friend who has lived and breathed Modifying CDP's for may years, shared my thoughts that the CD73 worked excellently with the DAC. He also told me if he was not having his GM70 SE Amps built, I would not be buying this DAC. I take it he has found a worthy competitor for his Modded CDP's.
I have been using it through Saturday attached to the Cambridge Azur 540C, it is very very good, I have two
75 Ohm Digital Cables, One a very expensive pure silver design, produced by the DAC's Designer and one a
Mapleshade Clearview Excaliber Plus. The system warmed up using the Silver Design Cable, and after about 4 hours, I was sure I had my ear into the Sound Quality. I swapped out the Silver IC for the Mapleshade.
The effect of the Mapleshade was substantial, it produced more detail and smoothed the highs to a real not usually heard quality, I played with other interconnects between DAC/Preamp, and there effect on SQ was immediately picked up on.
I then put the Silver IC between DAC/Preamp on one channel and this was superb, the whole presentation took on a different dimension for the better. After about 30 minutes I done the same cable sequence for the Mapleshade DAC/Preamp, putting the Silver IC back to the CDP/DAC position. This was not so appealing as the reversed method.
As the above is all subjective, I have invited a friend over who has no experience with my system, but heard my amps at the Owston Meeting. He has a long history with HiFi and DIY Device Builds, Phonostages, Amps, DAC's and Speakers.
If there is time, I will present all the cable comparisons and a CD vs Vinyl should be on the cards.
I do believe my search for a DAC is on hold, it feels like for good at present, I feel very lucky to have been introduced to this DAC and given the purchase option.
The Icing on the Cake is there is a small cardboard box supplied with the DAC, it contains a Modded Chip, that is claimed by the designer to be a further improvement to the one installed at present. It is not in place as the agreement was to let me listen to a non-upgraded model before I place the upgraded modded chip into the circuit.And who makes this mystical DAC?
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
walpurgis
02-09-2018, 10:56
The best DAC's I've listened to are the ones I'm using. Monarchy Audio M22B and M22C. Until I came across these, I was using Theta DAC's and thought they were amazing, but the Monarchy's blew them away!
Had a Monarchy dac too. was very decent unit, as was the A Alchemy one. but the XS-01A is imo better; but its really the presentation you like thats important.
And who makes this mystical DAC?
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
It is a collaboration between two Designers works, one of Whom is the Designer of the VAS Valve MM Phonostage, the Designer who carried out the latest upgrades, the other is a Designer who I believe produced it, AND produces products that retail at silly prices. I don,t know the company name.
I have it as a relabeled Brand, the Brand Logo I have on the front of it is Audio Pills.
I am not sure if this is a repeatable model due to the history of it production.
It will be a relevant presentation at a CD vs Vinyl Bake Off.
Bear in mind, I am slowly converting to the merits of Digital replay, I,m not beating the drum for it, or attempting to even suggest I have a experience that is vast. I am 'just enjoying' the new found qualities it is has been offering my set up when used for a replay.
If I was not so impressed with the mini Modded CDP vs Vinyl Bake Off on my system recently, I do not think I would have acted on this opportunity to purchase a DAC from similar design backgrounds.
SantanaCorreia
02-09-2018, 11:06
Now you've had it for a while what are your thoughts?It is very very good. I had several here at my house but this one is very musical. I like it a lot.
Enviado do meu HTC_M10h através do Tapatalk
Bigman80
02-09-2018, 11:40
It is a collaboration between two Designers works, one of Whom is the Designer of the VAS Valve MM Phonostage, the Designer who carried out the latest upgrades, the other is a Designer who I believe produced it, AND produces products that retail at silly prices. I don,t know the company name.
I have it as a relabeled Brand, the Brand Logo I have on the front of it is Audio Pills.
I am not sure if this is a repeatable model due to the history of it production.
It will be a relevant presentation at a CD vs Vinyl Bake Off.
Bear in mind, I am slowly converting to the merits of Digital replay, I,m not beating the drum for it, or attempting to even suggest I have a experience that is vast. I am 'just enjoying' the new found qualities it is has been offering my set up when used for a replay.
If I was not so impressed with the mini Modded CDP vs Vinyl Bake Off on my system recently, I do not think I would have acted on this opportunity to purchase a DAC from similar design backgrounds.Fair enough!
I still remember the VAS phonostage very well. An Excellent phonostage. Best on the day imo.
Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk
I have a small correction as to the origins of the DAC.
The owner of NVKaudio is the Designer who carried out the upgrades to my model.
The producer of my DAC and NVKaudio are long time associates and share design philosophies on DAC circuitry.
The VAS MM Phonostage is undergoing a complete overview of the design, these design changes are being overseen by NVKaudio. So that was my misunderstanding.
NVKaudio gave a assessment of this model,claiming it would be a worthy contender to a High Quality Valve Based CD Player. Both I and my friend agree with this as a fair assessment supplied by NVKaudio.
For the record, I have no vested interest in any commercial body in relation to this DAC.
This reply and the references to other parties, is to correct a reply I previously posted in which I had a misunderstanding in who was involved in producing the DAC, following a question from another forum member who showed a interest.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.