View Full Version : Apogee Duetta Interstella
Some may find this interesting... my new speakers are starting to take shape. Details here (http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?9289-Apogee-Duetta-Signature-Rebuild), relevant stuff on the last few pages.
Hi Justin,
This part of the forum, mate, is strictly for pictures of our members' systems, not links to such. Therefore, could you please post the *actual* images here, as shown on the Martin Logan site, using Imageshack or Photobucket?
Cheers, dude! :cool:
Marco.
Soz Marco - it isn't intended to cover my system so I have put it in the wrong place.
I just thought some might be interested in the build/details and want to comment without becoming ML forum members!
Best move it where you see fit and sorry for the bad post.:offtopic:
No worries, dude. Now moved to where it should live :)
Marco.
OK here's the relevant pics then:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16418&stc=1&d=1371577545
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16419&stc=1&d=1371577573
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16420&stc=1&d=1371577592
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16421&stc=1&d=1371577613
As can be seen there is something approaching an Apogee starting to take shape there.
The basic design philosophy is to build a substantially upgraded Duetta Signature. The way to do this, in my infinate wisdom and that of the builder, is to build them like brick shithouses. Can't afford the money for R&D so it is a "safeish" option.
The originals were subtantial and heavy. These are much more substantial and even heavier.
In their day for those who don't know Apogees were very highly rated. They still are by older reviewers like Ken Kessler, who still has a pair of Scintillas (though I suspect they'd benefit from some work TBH). I like 'em too.
jandl100
20-06-2013, 09:59
Congrats on the Great Project finally getting underway, Justin.
Yup, they are beginning to look like Apogees!
Looking forward to hearing these when done Justin:cool:
Looking forward to hearing these when done Justin:cool:
Me too :-)
Hm I feel a bake of coming on...:)
Jerry - subs to our convo standard Duetta is actually 54.5 KG (120Lbs). Pretty heavy but will be interesting to see what these end up as. An MBL 116F is 40KG to put that in perspective.
Also here are some AoS exclusive stand pics - mobile only still in the workshop. These are yet to be finished - they could be brushed with a clear laquer or anodised. They're pretty meaty compared to the originals, should reach half way up the speaker and hopefully mate with the aluminium internal bracing - so really no need to go any higher up.
It is easy to sway a Duetta on the original stands. It should be nigh on impossible with this little set up:D
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Interstella/Image055_zpsd02930ca.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Interstella/standsclose1_zps2b5ebe9b.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Interstella/Image056_zps53b8bd0e.jpg
Sorry Mr Kessssssssler for the spelling error earlier!:) In the unlikely event your watching that is...:D
Leo Spiegel 1990 - Apogee Speaker Designer (http://www.apogeespeakers.com/leo_spiegel_interview.htm)
Notice what he says about force per unit area over an ESL. Been suspecting that for a long, long time - done some forum posts but nobody seemed to be able to answer it - even Serge(WTF!?).
It would appear even ML's dual force CLX ESL panels can't match an Apogee bass driver for force and therefore impact and extension. Yeah I know he was talking about the true ribbon MRT in terms of force per unit area but I'm betting the same is true of the panels.
Bass magnets are now in position, so here's back view pic. I'm not able to show a front view, as it shows how the structural thick aluminium bar frame re-inforcement has been done. The white stuff is a new, never before used glue. Let's hope it works!:)
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/apback_zps107da8b3.jpg
These might make it by Xmas. Not that much left to do. External x-overs, paint, and ribbon install basically.
When completed, this should be the best pair of Apogee Duettas in the country.
Having said that I do believe that there will be an Apogee showroom up and running soon. It may well have a pair of Graz's Duetta - called the Advance 7 I believe (7th iteration of the Duetta). Regrettably, these will better my pair. But they will not be cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
more pics more pics please BamBam
I wanna hear them:eek:
What are you going to drive them with?
Paul
More pics at the link in the first post. Long thread now but go to the end and work backwards?
Same amps to drive as I have now. Huge great 211 based valve monos in other words.
I had a feeling clicking the link may be dangerous:)
now I want a pair of Apogee's.
Interesting thread and quiet a journey, the first pair are beautiful but the image of the new (Accuphase) speaker is sublime
I started at the beginning and was quiet enthralled to read how you embarked on the first resto project aurally blind .I admire your bravery
the price you mention for the first pair was that from scratch? seems very good value for such a fantastic pair of speakers I may have to get the
mans details from you if I can persuade the wife she already puts up with 63's so I might get lucky;)
Hope they are finished in time for Santa to bring them home for you though he better come here first as I cant see him finishing his round after lugging
a pair or them in on his Jacksy
nice looking amps by the way
Paul
Hi Paul,
If you really are interested, my current pair may be available. You'll have a long wait if you want Jon to do a pair for you.
They cost more than the figure mentioned as I changed the MRT ribbons and did an x-over tweak too. EDIT: just realised I didn't say how much I paid... the pair coming should be around the £10K mark if you want a similar/same spec. The ones I have will be much, much less.
I've been into hi-fi for 30 years, and heard some of the world's best designs etc etc and these are, in my opinion, some of the best speakers ever made. They are, quite literally, way up there. What is unfortunate is they get virtually no exposure these days.
They don't sound like 63s, though. Much bigger in scale, much, much more dynamic and expressive, massively superior bass, and greater sense of subjective resolution and realism. They sound much closer to a live event. They are completely killer IMHO, hence me bothering to invest in an even better pair.
PM me if you want to hear them.
Justin
Hi Justin,
Firstly thanks for the offer of a listen sadly I don't get to Bristol often
although I do have an aunt in W-S-M that would be surprised to see me :eek:
but yes I would love to hear them. I have heard Apogees before and remember them as epic
sounding, If your current Pair are still available after your new pair are ready let me know as I
would be interested ,
Paul
OK Paul, will do. You can have the colour changed to any car paint colour should you wish, BTW.
Gawd, you've really got it bad :lol: I loved the originals when carefully set up, but the short life of the original panels was a worry - a few years of drum-n-bass made the diaphragms very loose and floppy :rofl: The load was an amp-killer too. get 'em right though and there's magic :)
Ignorance is not an opinion.:lol:
More seriously I'm not going to pretend the bass panels last much more than 10 years. Then the inevitable re-skin calls. That said it depends on usage, and some will last a lot longer.
But then I never had a pair of Martin Logan panels last me more than 7 years in 17 years of usage. These definitely feel they will last longer.
Also, a meagre 80-100 Watts will feed a Duetta to silly loud volumes.
Another thing to be aware of is the foam used these days is more durable than the original, and the adhesives used to bond the aluminium to the Kapton is also much improved. They don't sound like the originals as a result. The recent KLM5 MRT ribbon is a leap forward in the right direction - providing improved resolution and a loss of any hardness encountered with KLM2 and the original MRT ribbons.
A Krell KSA80 gave far more than 80W when driving 1 - 3 ohms though :)
A Krell KSA80 gave far more than 80W when driving 1 - 3 ohms though :)
Actually Dave we tried a KSA50 on them and it sounded shite. Flat as a witches tit for a soundstage - and that was the owner saying that. Mind you that was with a passive pre - a spacious valve pre would no doubt have helped.
Duettas are a very constant 4Ohm load. We ain't talking Scintillas here.
In all honesty Graz has managed to better Apogee's original efforts. It has taken time as I have heard some of the earlier Graz re-ribbons, but recent Calipers are much better than the earlier efforts. And even my own speakers have moved forward considerably.
Hopefully a top pair will turn up at a show sometime. I might even partially fund it. Then again...:)
Couple of pics - back of the new Apogees. Front covers at the paint shop at the mo turning into Cubanite silver. Whether you like it or not it is definitely a much better room match than the Benitoite Blue of the pair I have now.
The paint on the back is durable and won't scratch like metallic car paint. Useful when placing them on the "operating table" for tweaking etc. The aluminium bracing crossbars you can see will be painted the same colour as I think breaking up the bass driver's magnet array looks cooler than all black would be, though that choice is a close shave. Both would look fine.
There are bracing bars you can't see and the MDF is twice the thickness of the original design. The stands bolt into the bracing bars. This frame will not move. One "^&*ing strongly made loudspeaker. Just hope it can be moved.
Clamps holding the bass driver are partially aluminium, unlike the MDF of the originals.
Loadsa holes for the super-heavy duty stands and front cover mounting. You should see a 1cm border of car paint round the edges when done as the backs are recessed into the cover.
The bass foam used now is good for 20 years according to the refurbisher.
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/Apogeeback_zpsf85f6c9d.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/slkcubanitesilver_zpsd5953a7e.jpg
Part of the MRT rear - the long thin ribbon's magnet holder's, if you like, under construction, rear view.
So basically the rear ribbon output will be complelely open air, with the moved air contending with the curved edges, rather than the narrower straight aperture of the original design.
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/MRT_zpsb63f6685.jpg
Looking good Justin....keep us updated. Is that a change of colour to what they were originally going to be? (thought it was meant to be eggshell green?)
I've been through all sorts Paul. Nissan Café Latte was a strong contender for a while - 2nd strongest, really. That's the colour Jon liked best (the Nissan).
Went for Cubanite Silver as it is far more light dependant/complex - ranging from nearly silver to what you see above.
BTW: there's a lick of paint more to go on the back frame.
So much effort. If I was you I would just buy a Logan ;)
I didn't get your comment, why would a valve pre instead of a passive pre have helped with the Krell?
Also, if a Krell could not drive it, how can your current valves drive it?
Wakefield Turntables
03-02-2014, 20:52
Perhaps the new NAIM statement amp might have enough grunt?
So much effort. If I was you I would just buy a Logan ;)
I didn't get your comment, why would a valve pre instead of a passive pre have helped with the Krell?
Also, if a Krell could not drive it, how can your current valves drive it?
A trait of many valve preamps is to create a soundstage with width and depth - especially when the SS amp in question is as flat as a pancake dimensionally. Like the KSA50 was. It could drive the Duettas no problem.
As you heard my 211s do drive the Duettas - loudly. They're 80 Watts but can muster 170 Watt peaks.
Here's a Synergy 2 in Ferarri Red. This sucker has neodymium magnets and is very efficient as a result. A 20 Watt tube amp will drive it no problem. This speaker has an English owner (I've met him twice).
Expensive though:D And the owner is driving them with a 600 Watt amp. MMMAAADDD!!!
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/Synergy2-03_zps8083699d.jpg
Perhaps the new NAIM statement amp might have enough grunt?
Defo but it will sound like a Naim:D
IMHO you want valves driving Apogees if you can. Seems to provide the best sonics to my ears anyway. Mind you there are some valves in the Naim... so it might be OKish, LOL.
Laquer drying in the paint shop. Need a mop/polish still. Pretty happy with that TBH.
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/Image073_zps24ed43e2.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/Image072_zps18ef1b88.jpg
Starting to come together now... whilst the mags might look oddly placed, that is correct.
Excuse the silicon implant:eyebrows:
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/DSCF0350_zps98cd0145.jpg
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/DSCF0348_zpsb0b8b58d.jpg
jandl100
21-02-2014, 10:15
Wow - they really are getting there now. :drool:
I am much looking forward to hearing these!
BTW: if you think the mags don't look new you'd be correct. They are original Apogee. There is no point (apart from losing money) in using new ones, lest you go neodymium. That's £4K just for the mags. It's cheaper to provide the speaker with power instead.
Mind you, it would be fun to see a 20 Watt amp drive an Apogee, LOL.
EDIT: also interesting to note is that if you order a pair of the new Duetta Advance 7, as built by Graz in Australia, you will get new magnets, but they are the same strength as these.
Working with so many neodymium magnets is difficult and prone to accidents requiring a couple of tonnes of force to correct etc etc.
Looking really good Justin. Hard to tell properly from the photos but that finish looks great.
Thanks Paul. The bottom two photos are more representative of the colour but it changes a lot according to the light. I've got one where they look quite intensely grey, and was seriously wondering if the paintshop had got the paint code right. The two immediately above come as a bit of relief:)
Got some stand pics now the aluminium has been brushed and polished. Will post later but I think they look great.
Stands now linished and the shots below show how a bit of metal polish work wonders to it. It is easy to see the bit that hasn't been done.
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/DSCF0358_zps10b3ca83.jpg (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/User_211/media/Apogee/DSCF0358_zps10b3ca83.jpg.html)
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/DSCF0356_zpsc7c08ae6.jpg (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/User_211/media/Apogee/DSCF0356_zpsc7c08ae6.jpg.html)
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g436/User_211/Apogee/DSCF0357_zpsca9e1399.jpg (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/User_211/media/Apogee/DSCF0357_zpsca9e1399.jpg.html)
:)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Q-u6dobNKMs/U52B_M5E_VI/AAAAAAAABx4/iYulH0Z9RYg/w448-h597-no/Interstella+7+Corrected
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ao5bEYWtHTo/U52B7SMcHaI/AAAAAAAABxo/wQBjPtlLnRs/w448-h597-no/Interstella+x-over+2
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0nQN0Sfo5D8/U52B9Z4VjQI/AAAAAAAABxw/3t3U8D1BiqI/w796-h597-no/Interstella+Top
Ali Tait
15-06-2014, 14:34
Lovely job. How do they sound?
Don't know they're not delivered yet and not completely finished but they are playing music as I type I believe.
awkwardbydesign
15-06-2014, 15:43
I've never heard any Apogees, but I've always wanted to. So, as I live in Plymouth, when can I? :eyebrows:
Now. My existing pair is available. And awesome. Really:)
awkwardbydesign
15-06-2014, 17:31
Ok, will PM you later. (Footie on)
sq225917
16-06-2014, 07:22
Looking good, top notch build.
When he puts his mind to it he does good:)
jandl100
17-06-2014, 05:55
It's taken a while, but .... :yay:
--- any idea on delivery date, Justin?
Of course, they'll have to run in for 6 months. :eyebrows:
Hm... 1.75 years since inception:D
Preciae ETA unknown but not long - still a bit of work to do.
These are chez moi now. Jerry is coming round for a listen on Friday though Apogees do require a significant number of hours to run in. I reckon a few hundred on the MRTs before they really give of their best, from past experience that I have documented elsewhere on zee web.
They are very listenable now, though.
Slideshow of pics from a few months ago here (https://plus.google.com/photos/110178171641889521518/albums/6039756658812220609/6039756693762245906?pid=6039756693762245906&oid=110178171641889521518). Select More->Slideshow. They aren't finished here (x-over covers etc etc), and that's isn't at my place, but hey. Will post some pics at my place some time.
awkwardbydesign
12-11-2014, 23:07
I've never heard any Apogees, but I've always wanted to. So, as I live in Plymouth, when can I? :eyebrows:
Take 2.
Richard Jerry got 1st listen because he knew my last pair well. He is part of Apogee development labs subjective division, LOL.
They are in early days/not on spikes/not fully bolted together etc. When they are settled in then sure.
awkwardbydesign
13-11-2014, 07:59
OK, thanks Justin.
jandl100
13-11-2014, 08:28
Yeah! Looking forward to it ... I'll be taking my own digital front end and CDs 'round - no streamin' crap for me! :nono: :D
That's what you think...:)
jandl100
13-11-2014, 08:46
damn - I'll bring my ear plugs :eyebrows:
Bring two pairs - I'll need them for that solid state DAC, LOL.
Decided to call Jerry's visit off though no offense to Jerry.
I've chickened out more break in is required. So been here before:D
jandl100
13-11-2014, 21:52
Chicken !!
http://northglennews.co.za/wp-content/uploads/sites/51/2014/05/Chicken.jpg
jandl100
14-11-2014, 10:31
Oh come on, Justin -- it's not as if I'm comparing them with anything half decent at home. I'm easily impressed.
Are you saying you still wanna come over?
They really aren't run in, but they DO sound better than the old ones did post new KLM5 ribbons.
Some chap in London has the old ones. They left this house sounding absolutely brilliant. Lucky chappy.
Actually he gets them today I believe. Will be driven by a Devialet.
jandl100
14-11-2014, 10:46
No, I'll wait til you are happy(er).
Wise. They are going to be brilliant. Trust me. I know these things.
Build quality is ridiculously good. Jon has excelled himself.
Really a super build on these - absolutely excellent.
Really a super build on these - absolutely excellent.
Yup. It's Interstella (cringe).
I've got to admit when I first saw them in the flesh I was bowled over.
Top marks and sincere respect to Jon.
Got the mic out and did a FR check on these. I'd told Jon I thought the 30Hz Duetta bump had gone and was curious to see if it has. It has. What's more the frequency response extends to 20Hz in room to within +/- nearly 0DB. 21Hz is 0DB. Result. To 500Hz with +/- 5DB (that's the bass panel), the true ribbon to 12KHz within +/- 2.5 DB. I x-over roll them off deliberately after 12KHz.
Given there's no way my amps are linear, and there's 30 valves in the system all set up by ear, I wonder how good the results would be with a truly linear SS setup.
Measurements were taken at the listening position (ear position) i.e. where it counts/matters with a calibrated UMIK measurement mic. There was NO CHEATING that is all so easy to do - mic pointed straight at loudspeakers. Taken at 85-90DB I estimate (closer to 90 it was cripplingly loud - ear finger's required all frequency noise sounds terrible!!!) - plenty enough to cause room interactions.
Pretty good.
You say they are 0dB at 21Hz - have I read that right? There must be a heck of a lot of room gain if it is because it seems exceedingly unlikely from a dipole with a minimal baffle.
They do go lower than the last pair I can hear it. Room gain? I think not. It is just a plain old rectangular room. Also I am in the middle of nowhere so there is no outside noise.
The test is readily repeatable in the front of witnesses.
I don't blame you for being sceptical. I am amazed. The 30Hz Duetta bump looks to have been frame resonance. It was quite a serious issue but when you pump serious energy into a panel the size of a door if it isn't held in check it will join the party.
The plots are on the ML forum.
What is the ML forum - not Martin Logan? Room gain is where some frequencies are boosted by the standing waves created in (typically rectangular) rooms - all rooms add some lift at some frequency (or frequencies), it's the nature of the beast. The very nature of a dipole is that as a positive wave is generated from the front an equal negative one is generated from the rear and this can partially counter the one from the front. This is particularly an issue as frequency descends and frequency length increases.
Looking at the quoted specs for the Duetta Signature Apogee quoted -3dB at 30Hz which already sounds quite ambitious.
Oh, I've done a bit of a Google search and see you do mean the Martin Logan forum. I can't say I've read a lot of that thread but you seem to mention the addition of an acrylic panel to the rear instead of the acoustically transparent sock - is that right? That would probably reduce bass cancelation - but then it's not truly a dipole anymore either. I mean, all of this was one of the ideas behind the Krell active crossover etc. to help eq the bass.
Very interesting though and a jolly nice project.
No Mark the back is open. It is a true dipole. Look at the back you can see the holes in the bass magnet grid. Acrylic was only intended for the surround of the back and we didn't use it in the end. Decided it was a bad idea.
I am not arguing with a high quality calibrated measurement mic. Even the old Duettas went to 25Hz ish.
Planar magnetic dipoles have always been able to get very low. We're not talking ESLs here.
This loudspeaker (the Duetta) was and is one of the world's finest designs IMHO. That's why I am obsessed with the things and tried to improve on the original.
Yes, I did see some pictures of the rear after I had posted. To be honest, there is so much magnet behind the bass ribbon that I guess a lot of the rear radiation is blocked by these. I did also see the two frequency response plots you posted, in general it looks like the bass response is quite elevated (I would say that 10dB swings in the bass are quite significant though). Nice job on the 50's style labels - very good; that's a heck of a lot of potting compound in the crossovers too :).
Yeah quite a bit of the rear wave is blocked by magnets. There is not much change in sound when you listen from the rear though.
As I say my amps are not linear. Roll the 211s and you can.measure 3DB changes in the bass region.
The only real issue is around the 60Hz mark which I was PEQing out last night in JRiver. You can easily hear even 3DB corrections with the right material but the quality doesn't change just the amount of output.
When I get a decent SS amp in I'll redo it but for an in-room response I am very happy with it.
I don't want to sound like a conceited twat but they do sound seriously excellent. To me:)
Ali Tait
20-12-2014, 18:48
Glad they are hitting the spot Justin. You've obviously put a lot of time and effort into these speakers.
Thanks I suppose my biggest contribution was the frame strengthening method, basically bolting a super rigid stand into a aluminium reinforced speaker frame to form a sandwich. Plus specifying thicker front covers/paint colour. X-overs are Jon's but HF roll-off is me and kind of agreed with Jerry that flat is "too hot" with this design.
This design is good enough to compete in today's marketplace and win against a lot of other designs. I keep thinking about ways to make the same thing more easily:) This took two friggin' years!!!
Jon & Graz are at least 66% of what this speaker is though. 75-80% really. They made it and provided the ribbons after all.
This is for Mark - shot of the x-over cover. If you didn't live in Sheffield you'd be welcome to come round as you do seem quite interested. Jerry is first, though;)
I'm really sorry for concentrating on minor issue of measurement and interpretation. I actually am full of praise for this project. Your intention, I believe, was to take the original Duetta and build something that was true to the original but better in every way - and you really have succeeded in doing this. I looked at the manufacturers website and they seem to suggest a similar build would only cost 5K - that is extraordinarily cheap in my opinion. Well done!
Well unfortunately no, Mark. That is for a standard Duetta refurbishment. These cost a lot more and took a lot of effort. So much I am not sure Jon wants to build another pair unless it is financially worth it. The price for another pair would be £10K.
I played with the 60Hz bump again last night. When removed, that response really is excellent in room. However, you do lose some impact nulling it out. I actually quite like it but it is no problem to keep the PEQ permanently engaged. Aprt from one issue - when using TIDAL and directing the output to JRiver's WDM driver so as to use JRiver's PEQ, there are some digital glitches. When this gets resolved, bingo!
I'm going to do the FR again at 85DB now the SPL meter has a new battery. Pretty sure it won't be too different.
I have some plots of other speakers in room (that I can't post for various reasons) and they are nowhere near as good as that. Scarily bad, in fact, even though said speakers sound really quite good.
Please note this was only ever my personal project with Jon to build a better Duetta. We have done that. It was never really meant to be made for anyone else. However, if anyone wants a similar pair I have no objection as long as you can coerce Jon into making them.
If you do that, at least make sure they are different in at least one significant technical respect. I like the feeling of having unique speakers. Takes a lot of faith to do it without having heard a pair first, so Jon and I are probably in the clear:)
Rest assured I won't be following your path as I don't have either the room or taste for dipoles (I've heard Apogees a couple of times and they weren't for me). I'm not surprised by the cost though :). I only thing I think a slight shame is not using neodymium magnets - but I also quite understand the reasons :).
Yeah I agree but I did try...:) There are two pairs in this country that do but they were built by Graz in Australia.
One more thing - in room FR plots are well dodgy in the sense that mic placement is all. Place your mic somewhere else, or angle it differently and get a really quite different response. Different room - different response again. Those plots are at the ear as I say. It is very easy to get anal about it, but, there is more to life (and speaker performance) than flat (or ideally some think gradually slopping downwards - like DIRAC, for instance) responses.
Just thought I'd add - it is £4K for a set of neodymium magnets of for a pair of Duettas. Yup - that's right - JUST THE MAGNETS at retail. Also, while you'll get a big leap in efficiency, it is a lot cheaper to feed more power. Bizarrely, both neodymium owners are feeding their speakers with 600 Watts. IMHO madness but each to their own:D I believe Graz has taken a step back from using them.
Jerry's kit meets Apogees...
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0jdx3R15Mlw/VLLLsoLTbVI/AAAAAAAACT0/bjSmxlQXBaA/w1011-h569-no/DSC01599.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-14lcrYE45zc/VLLLiJkNpzI/AAAAAAAACTs/yGfMpQyYqX4/w1011-h569-no/DSC01600.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BeG2ht-z4lY/VLLMHzc_HnI/AAAAAAAACUE/N2N67WkKmrw/w792-h446-no/DSC01602.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-65s6TGofYNk/VLLL3qflGOI/AAAAAAAACT8/kP4-UQb91ic/w1011-h569-no/DSC01601.JPG
When connecting the Crown in Jerry went for the right speaker connection by mistake - then wired it back in.
So we played some Dream Theater and after that I pretty much lost interest halfway through the next track. So I suggested we wire the 211s back in. I was way off axis, but I thought it sounded clean/lean and wasn't interested in hearing any more.
With the 211s back in I was in the kitchen thinking something had changed - couldn't hear the normal level of bass. Suggested we wire in the Wyred For Sound DAC. We did. Anyway I sat down in the proper listening position for a while (we'd done some thin sounding Dream Theater first) thinking the W4S was sounding very etched and WTF was Robert Smith sounding so odd for, and where's the bass weight? Had a look at the DAC connections. A bit later I checked the speaker connection - sure enough it was out of phase.
Excellent. Not!!! I said to Jerry we had to plumb the Crown in again, not that I wanted to. We did and actually the W4S and Crown sounded pretty good. The amp is spanking value for money really. The DAC is very good too.
No matter what Jerry chimes in with, the look on his face on a number of occasions with the 211/B7 combo just said it all for me. I wish I could have got a camera on him without him noticing:)
How was the B7 with the Crown. What was lacking?
It was very good with both DACs Kedar. You were right - it is a great amp - especially for what Jerry paid for it. Weighs nothing and is really quite petite.
Shove it in a posh box with an Absolute Sounds "brand name" on it and charge £4K for it.:lol:
TBH need to hear more of it we only heard a couple of tracks with it wired up right at the end of a three hour session!
Just goes to show that all you need is a cheap class D amp and a good DAC these days and if you have some great speakers you will be doing OK.
Note the pro wiring job (EDIT I mean in the pics, not Jerry's mis-wire. We've done it before it is just so easy to do, especially when you're not familiar with the speakers or other kit. All bake offs require a wiring checker. Really.):D
jandl100
11-01-2015, 21:32
... No matter what Jerry chimes in with, the look on his face on a number of occasions with the 211/B7 combo just said it all for me. I wish I could have got a camera on him without him noticing:)
Heh heh - get the defensive shots in 1st. :lol:
Yep, it all sounded very good, I enjoyed it a lot. And some great music was played - why not enjoy it?
Lovely speakers, built like the proverbial brick outhouse. :thumbsup: Fantastic dynamism, impact and control. Superb clarity and rez.
If Justin wants/expects me to have a go at them .... OK, I prefer a bit more warmth, I found them just a tad on the stark / clinical side of the fence. Especially true when streaming via Tidal - better, warmer, more natural imho when playing one of those old-fashioned silver optical disc things, CDs that's what they are called, but still a tad stark for my tastes.
I remain baffled as to why Justin streams with Tidal when it sounds obviously better direct from a CD, but heyho, neither of us will ever convince the other! :lol:
I was quite disappointed with my Crown amp's showing - I'd expected and hoped it would do far better than it actually did into Justin's new Apogees. :(
-- then Justin noticed that a certain numpty (that would be me :oops: :o) had wired one speaker out of phase. :doh:
After wiring the dang things up correctly, the Crown strutted its stuff to much better effect. Sure, Justin's big valve monoblocks had more impact, were faster and more involving - but without a direct comparison like that I would have said that the Crown sounded damn good. Heck, the Crown did sound damn good!
As for the Lampi B7 (is that the model?) .... an excellent DAC, but personally I think it struggled a little against my Wyred4Sound DAC1 .... I'd go as far as to say that I actually preferred the W4S DAC for its extra rez and focus. If you prefer a more airy / spacious sound then the Lampi would get the nod. But the W4S does err on the clean/explicit side, and that didn't synergise ideally with the Apogees which do the same sort of thing. Nonetheless, I had a slight preference for the W4S. It works even better into my speakers, especially with a better transport (I had taken my somewhat inferior spare one) and with a decent co-ax digi cable rather than the TOSLINK optical that we used.
So are the Apogee Intestellas my dream speakers? They are bloody good, but no. I already have my own version of dream speakers, which makes pretty much any comparisons biased and unfair where my opinion is concerned. I can fully understand that Justin is immensely pleased with his new Aps, and why he considers them to be the best 'domestic' speakers he has ever heard. :)
Defensive Jerry? No I meant it - you should have seen your face:)
Well the Parasound A21 the Crown was not, that is for sure. That was a defining moment with the last pair of Apogees. Boy could that thing control an Apogee. With the Crown pushing 525 Watts into the Interstella, you'd have hardly have known it was more powerful than the 211s.
However for the very few tracks we played it with wired up correctly (A Forest by The Cure from Acoustic hits, and the awesome Dream Theater track the name of which is on another computer) it did sound very promising especially for the money.
I'm not listening to Jerry's W4S DAC comments as he told me he preferred it to the Lampi when hearing it out of phase. It is only when I sat down in the listening chair I knew something was wrong 100% definitely. But I did think it sounded very good in a solid state manner if that is what you like. It is a bit more leading edge defined. The Lampi is quite a bit easier to listen to IMHO, and more spatial. It is also a lot more money.
TIDAL? Hm sounds different to ripped CDs via JRiver with no DSP i.e. playing straight. Jerry was adamant he preferred CDs via my laptop straight away. However, it turned out that he wasn't listening to the CD but a rip to HD, played back by buffering it into RAM first. JRiver does some messing around internally in code with the way I have it set up i.e. 64 bit calculations etc.
A hi-fi pig person sees to think JRiver doesn't sound as good as TIDAL. TIDAL seems to sound a bit thinner than JRiver CD rips. But it is better than Quobuz was. Why? Well I was never convinced Qubuz really was what it said it was and set about trying to prove the data that came out of it was different to CD rips. I gave up in the end after monitoring USB traces to the DAC using some special software. Without reference to the spec it is impossible to assert what is audio data etc but traces did look very different between JRiver and Quobuz.
TIDAL has 21 Dream albums Jerry. Despite Jerry's impressions, most other accounts say the sound quality is great. And I think it is very good. I find 25 million albums and very good sound quality to be a pretty convincing reason to continue to use it.
I've always liked Jerry's speakers and rate them up there. Tom's RFC cab custom built Tannoys are up there too. But I think (well I know, LOL) these are better than either. Not the best speakers in the world, but the best I have heard in anyone's home. Am I being conceited? Well I am biased as I spec'd them and was involved in their construction. But I know someone who has heard both systems and I know which he prefers. However, he does prefer panels as a rule.
In the end neither Jerry or Tom would concede my speakers were better so such statements are irrelevant. I just know they are wrong:lol:;) I'm confident Interstella will "measure" appreciably better than either. Perhaps that means they are shite:)
jandl100
11-01-2015, 22:36
TIDAL has 21 Dream albums Jerry. Despite Jerry's impressions, most other accounts say the sound quality is great. And I think it is very good. I find 25 million albums and very good sound quality to be a pretty convincing reason to continue to use it.
But it was you, Justin, who first said that the CD-sourced sound quality was better than Tidal on that lute music. ;)
I'm not listening to Jerry's W4S DAC comments as he told me he preferred it to the Lampi when hearing it out of phase.
Well, I preferred the W4S (a bit) both in and out of phase - I don't see why changing phase should change my preference. Both are very good DACs imo.
But yes, the Lampi is now off my "Wish List". The W4S doesn't sound particularly solid state to me, just a bit more accurate and honest to the recording. But I'm a very long way past the delusion that valve based kit is necessarily warmer / softer / less accurate and that solid state is necessarily etched and forward - it all depends on the implementation.
Well I thought the W4S sounded poor out of phase in the listening chair. The difference in phase was immense IMHO. In my opinion considering the price in phase it was excellent.
If I still had my level 4 which I believe you rated best DAC you'd heard, it is by every account I have ever read a much better DAC than that. I really like it and think it is quite a leap above the 4 too. What we didn't do is valve roll with it - I put the Psvane 211-T in it because I thought it'd be the most to your taste. Maybe not. It changes really quite a lot with valve rolls as I have documented here. It is almost as many DACs as you can put valves in it in that sense.
jandl100
11-01-2015, 23:29
Yep, I've been pondering that, I certainly enjoyed the Lampi Level 4 DAC in my own system - that was getting on for 3 years ago (March/April 2012) and was certainly the best DAC I had heard at the time.
Maybe your PSVANE tubes gave your L7 a flavour that was less to my liking - I'm sure I just had whatever valves that Greg supplied with the Level 4 review sample, perhaps they just happened to be more to my taste or maybe there was better system synergy. Also, I hadn't heard the W4S DAC1 then!
One thing for sure, appearance-wise the Lampizator gear has improved enormously - it doesn't look like it was bodged together in a garage anymore! A lovely and impressive piece of kit. If a trifle on the LARGE side!!
But I only auditioned your L7 for a short while today - much longer is required to form a definite opinion, but it wasn't obviously better, just a bit different, imho.
You'll hear it again - we'll put it on the MBLs and swap some valves at some stage. Trust me - it will change quite a lot - for better or for worse.
Anyway you don't have to like it Jerry. I know I do:)
montesquieu
12-01-2015, 00:06
You'll hear it again - we'll put it on the MBLs and swap some valves at some stage. Trust me - it will change quite a lot - for better or for worse.
Anyway you don't have to like it Jerry. I know I do:)
Justin - would be cool to come over to Bristol with some Lieder and chamber music (and maybe some organ music) to get my take on these.
Last time I heard Apogees (at diceman's place) I was well impressed, likewise at Scalford a few years back - being a dipole fan of course (ok, Quad fan though I have had some open baffles as well).
I actually though Justin's speakers sounded really good, among the best I heard, the midrange was particularly strong, probably because of the Lampi, and the bass depth was excellent as well. Slight bass boom in Justin's room. They are also played extremely easily, probably because of the firm construction. And yes, I did not like his previous speakers and another set of Apogees that I have heard.
I think the lack of focus that Jerry refers to comes from the fact that the Lampi is very spacious and with his narrow room boundaries, Justin will do better deadening some of the live walls (or, if he believes in, putting up some Synergistic Research HFT).
The details etc can be changed by changing tubes. See this post http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=129512.20
"I have about all the tubes and many others being posted about.
From top to bottom.
The 101D is the most detailed of the bunch and the pavane metal base and the we101D are out the same
I have some brass sockets made for adapters. But you can get them to work without.
Given. I am a detail analytical guy I first fell in love with them. But grew tired and the intense details
For me the Sophia electric is a nice tube and they seem to span a wide ways in sound from various types of sound. The carbons are a bit rolled off on top so it a trade below in air and staging but the they do look cool.
The other se 300 B are better for me. There is a new 2.5 volt I dk not have as yet. But a trusted ear seats the edge the 6a3.
Next is the 2A3 I have a few pairs none of witch were a favorite
The eml makes some really good tubes. My fav is the anniversary globes as they give the details but more meaty then the eml 45 bottle tops.
Next is the 6A3. This is the tube to get. But not the cunnunghams. As they are nice they are just too laid back for me. Now the 6A3 is a numerous tube to enjoy. They're is many versions and each has a variation of perfection. Again my views
You can get the sylvanias or Tung sols. Both are good
Weather green letters or white but strong testing yields better sound
Even the 6b4G and socket adapters is fine and cheap too.
I also have Elrogs 300B the current fav for now.
Now for us one tube recto people this to is cool to roll. But it must be new or like new. No 80 year old fav for me. Eml or Sophia electric is both very good
And aloud it mesh they all have effect. The big 7 is marvel of a dac and it can be transformed to so many styles of presentation. It has to about the most Versatel dac out there.
One to bother with are out there. The small 6A3 new stinks it's a short tube and needs a socket adaptor it's just not good for men
Also the sventka tubes also
There is varitinns of a vt52 not good either
It's all a gamble in rolling but the lampi is not.
And being able to change the mood by tube rolling is a level of bliss I never new existed until this dac.
Luke keep playing and keep making us happy.
I have many more tubes not posted about as well it's a fun ride and keeps one excited and interested.
Al"
Also I think Justing should improve his transport and USB cable
Justin - would be cool to come over to Bristol with some Lieder and chamber music (and maybe some organ music) to get my take on these.
Last time I heard Apogees (at diceman's place) I was well impressed, likewise at Scalford a few years back - being a dipole fan of course (ok, Quad fan though I have had some open baffles as well).
Sure Tom. Diceman was over here listening to my last pair.
The Scalford pair of Calipers was a very early restoration - one of Jon's first. I heard a recent restoration and there was a marked improvement as Graz and Jon have learnt as time goes on.
The current pair I have is quite different to even my old Duettas, as bonzo noted. Though they do retain obvious similarities - they can't not do. I am convinced this pair does classical quite a bit better than the last pair though so they might float your boat.
Expect something quite a bit more serious than Calipers. I love the ^&*(ing things deeply as you might have gathered so anything I say doesn't necessarily translate into what you may think, despite my "they're the best domestics I have heard" comments. I promise you it'll be interesting at the very least.
I actually though Justin's speakers sounded really good, among the best I heard, the midrange was particularly strong, probably because of the Lampi, and the bass depth was excellent as well. Slight bass boom in Justin's room. They are also played extremely easily, probably because of the firm construction. And yes, I did not like his previous speakers and another set of Apogees that I have heard.
I think the lack of focus that Jerry refers to comes from the fact that the Lampi is very spacious and with his narrow room boundaries, Justin will do better deadening some of the live walls (or, if he believes in, putting up some Synergistic Research HFT).
Yeah there is a 62Hz peak which JRiver can easily cancel (I don't seem to be doing it though in practise apart from experimenting) but TBH if I went round to most people's places with the mic I know I'd find much more serious problems along the way. The in-room response is really very good. Much better at 30Hz than the last pair AND they go lower - see earlier in the rant of this thread.
So really in-room FR isn't a concern. More traps won't really help there one bit. I was thinking of doing some bass decay tests when Ken does his dipole sub measurements, Kedar.
I think many people's reaction to the bass is that they aren't used to hearing the equivalent of 3 12 inch woofers in their faces.
Image size easy to tune in or out with the Lampi tubes having a marked effect but the system is in a constant state of valve tuning TBH:). I like to roll a lot. My Lampi thread details what I get WRT this with various valves.
Transport - I've got a TEAC with optical out. Can't be arsed with it, though. I don't spin discs. USB cable? The Lampi one sounded no better than the cheap shit I use, but I do need a longer one to get it out of the way.
I don't think Lampi cable is special as Lukasz is a minimalist.
The traps I mentioned were light absorbers for reflections, not bass, on your live walls,
For Logans yeah side wall panels might be a good thing - curvelinear panels. But these fire straight. I don't think they'll help much. That said I ain't tried it.
Just slowly read Al's post. Hm. Keine Englander!:D Not German either I'd guess.
jandl100
13-01-2015, 06:53
I am convinced this pair does classical quite a bit better than the last pair though so they might float your boat.
Yep, I think they do.
The previous pair couldn't image worth a damn in your room with classical, imo, just a blur with vague leftish / rightish leanings - the Interstellas are far more focussed and subtle about it all (especially with the W4S DAC ;)).
Also there was some lower treble shriek that really intruded with violins in your old system when things got above forte - much better now! My guess is that you are right and the newer pair is much easier to drive. (I always said your old pair were right bastards, but you wouldn't accept it then! ;))
That Weiss solo lute music sounded real sweet and in the room once the scrawny sounds of TIDAL (spit) was out of the equation ... and before you grabbed the remote and wound up the volume to totally unrealistic levels. :doh: It's a solo lute, ffs, not Dream Theater @11 on the dial. :lol:
But it is still quite obvious to me that your system choices are not 'dialled in' for classical - it sounds much better on Dream Theater (awesome) than Mahler 6th or a Beethoven string quartet (not so awesome). :)
All the above my opinion, obviously, you will undoubtedly beg to differ. :D
No I think that is a great post TBH.
Bonzo liked them with classical (one of the best he's heard as he said) and he is a classical man. My previous pair was shit with classical, that is why I am saying these are better cos they undoubtedly have really quite good stab at it. I have listened to some with these now that it is more than listenable but I'm still not struck by the genre. I am also amazed at the amount of genuinely poor recordings out there for it. It seems worse than other genres. If you have great replay gear that kind of music HAS to have great recordings or it is a serious problem IMHO.
I will say, though, that the quality of the classical recordings you came round with was really very good. You should e-mail Kedar with them. IMHO they sounded quite a lot better than Kedar's selection but at the end of the day Kedar might not like your taste. That lute recording was fab and I agree that the volume boost gave it nothing.
Also interesting to note is that Kedar loves the Analysis Omega with classical and you hated it. I find that really curious.
What does piss me off a bit was that really quite long stretch of out-of-phase-ness. You missed some great stuff that would have sounded a lot better had all been normal.
I told you I agree JRiver with CD rips sounds better than TIDAL. But I don't think your CDP into the W4S sounded better than JRiver into the B7. I think we should try that with the MBLs at some stage. I'll also measurebate your goddam MBLs LOL just to see what is happening in-room wise if you can cope with that. No one cares, really, and I think it'd be very interesting. Hell something good might come of it, you never know! I'll even keep quiet about it if you want.;)
Once again though I really enjoyed it. May we have many more agree/disagreements:)
Oh Kedar, the mid range improvement isn't really down to the B7. It is down to the speaker, though the B7 does do a good job there. Better than the harder edged W4S (wind up, get a reaction, LOL).
BTW: I guarantee you that sooner or later you will use a streaming service. It is the year 2015. By 2020 if you aren't I'll eat my hat:lol:
jandl100
13-01-2015, 21:04
No I think that is a great post TBH.
Gosh. :o
Also interesting to note is that Kedar loves the Analysis Omega with classical and you hated it. I find that really curious.
Me, too.
It's worth bearing in mind that it must be 10 years or more since I heard the Analysis speakers - that's a LOT of time for product development.
Also, I enjoyed their sonic stablemates, the Apogee Caliper Sigs (very different from either of your Duettas, btw), for getting on for a year before the particular colourations started to lose their appeal.
What Hifi come close to what I heard in their review ... http://www.whathifi.com/analysis-audio/omega/review
"As good as these speakers are, there are areas open for criticism. No matter what we tried, we couldn’t get around an obviously skewed tonal balance that drops off at high frequencies – it makes the Omegas sound softer and more closed-in than they should. This effect, coupled with a lack of attack, also robs it of the bite necessary with aggressive music such as Eminem’s Recovery, or Stravinsky’s The Rite of Spring.."
I heard it as a plummy, warm colouration. Close enough agreement twix me and WTF for government work, I reckon.
jandl100
13-01-2015, 21:20
BTW: I guarantee you that sooner or later you will use a streaming service. It is the year 2015. By 2020 if you aren't I'll eat my hat:lol:
I agree with you.
But it will take that 5 years for the buggers to fix it so it sounds decent. .... Maybe 10. ;)
I was impressed by TIDAL's catalogue, though - the few (quite obscure) classical things I searched for were there. :thumbsup:
I thought you heard them relatively recently at Bristol TBH. Have a think - sure you did. Google would probably find the post with more effort than I want to go to.
I forgot to say - pump TIDAL into the JRiver engine and it sounds like JRiver when it doesn't fuck up - which it did a few weeks ago - quite frequently - with its WDM driver. Not consistently good enough to even attempt to show you without massive backlash. I will try it again in a while. Jerry - it is just coding differences, as I sort of tried to tell you. I know a few things. Not everything by any means. But a few...:)
jandl100
13-01-2015, 21:42
I thought you heard them relatively recently at Bristol TBH. Have a think - sure you did. Google would probably find the post with more effort than I want to go to.
Errr ... not me, guv. If I did post that I must have been having a Senior Moment! :eyebrows:
OK - let's see what Google turns up ....
Ah, look ... :oops: ... a senior moment indeed, it seems it was the Analysis Epsilon that I heard, not the one-up-the-range Omega :doh:
From the Wam 29-07-2009 ...
I owned Apogee Caliper Signatures for getting on for a year.
Powerful, clean but quite a characteristic sound .... in retrospect I'd call them coloured. Later on, I heard almost exactly the same characteristics in the Greek 'Epsilon' (I think it was called) Apogee-knockoff speakers. I assume the colourations are due to panel resonances over the large extent of the panel as both speakers sounded incredibly and distinctively alike.
I also heard a pair of much bigger Apogee Divas, I think it was, and they had the same character again, but to a lesser extent.
Interesting & enjoyable, but I don't think I would go there again.
I'll just go and book myself in to the Gloucestershire Home for the Bewildered .... :wheniwasaboy: :D
montesquieu
13-01-2015, 21:43
I'll just go and book myself in to the Gloucestershire Home for the Bewildered .... :D
Isn't that your postal address Jerry?
Isn't that your postal address Jerry?
Well that made me smile:). He's not coming to hear your Tannoys now...:D
jandl100
15-01-2015, 07:17
Well that made me smile:). He's not coming to hear your Tannoys now...:D
Oh no - I'll be there - but I'm busy compiling a long list of juicy insults and put-downs to hurl at his speakers now. :eyebrows:
I just read that What Lo-Fi review. I agree with everything they said about the Omega TBH. That is an accurate review. Amazeballs:D
Jerry you just won't like Tom's Tannoy's by default. Even though they are excellent:)
jandl100
15-01-2015, 22:39
What? - me like Ta-noise? - no chance :nono: Or maybe that should T-annoys, they sure annoys the hell outa me. :lol:
There are only two really good pairs I have heard. Tom's and the Kingdom Royal Carbon Edition + Thrax amps + MSB DAC.
I'm thinking hard about that and I guess I have heard a few pairs over the years. Yup - Tom's and the Kingdoms with that kit only.
montesquieu
16-01-2015, 00:45
There are only two really good pairs I have heard. Tom's and the Kingdom Royal Carbon Edition + Thrax amps + MSB DAC.
I'm thinking hard about that and I guess I have heard a few pairs over the years. Yup - Tom's and the Kingdoms with that kit only.
Flattered I'm sure! :)
Flattered I'm sure! :)
I'm biased I love that Beard amp best match I have heard for it.
AwkwardByDesign came round and played me some weird wired music...
Didn't seem too impressed. Think he likes AN/Es and AV Trios/bass horns. Usual rubbish people like. I dunno. Ain't no pleasin' everyone:D
Hey, I like AN/Es and Trios, I forgot:lol: I think he even likes Snell type A. Of those, I am not quite so sure:)
jandl100
27-01-2015, 06:44
AN/E ? ... pish! Well, I've heard one mildly decent pair out of several auditioned. I wouldn't willingly own any, though.
You should be pleased he wasn't too impressed with the Interstellas! :lol:
Snell Type A are good, though, as are the AG Trios.
Very personal things, speakers. :)
awkwardbydesign
27-01-2015, 09:29
If you'd emptied your inbox earlier you would have read this - "I would probably be very happy with a pair, if I had a bigger room and could afford the amps to do them justice." So :ner:
I do feel the room is a limiting factor though, and your choices of music are so limited; only 25 million albums? Pah! Seriously though, they are very impressive (soothing ruffled feathers here. ;)), but so different in presentation from what I am used to that I would have to play around with them for a long while to get them to suit me. Or to get me to suit them.
As for the AN/E thing, it's just that at shows they are a relief from exhibitors trying too hard and too loud. I doubt if I would be able to live with a pair, as I would want more precision, especially in imaging. And I have no free corners. I've only heard the Snell A's at Scalford, good with valves, bad with SS. I actually haven't liked AV Trios except the one time in Milan when they just blew me away; Leftfield have never sounded the same since!
I did enjoy the whole visit (apart from the cold feet; slippers next time!), but a 5 hour round trip is a bit much. Still, it sounds like I won't get invited again. :lol: Although your musical education will suffer. I had barely scratched the surface of the weird shit (actually labelled as such in Piccadilly Records!) that I usually listen to. And you will struggle to find most of it in Tidal!
You should PM me some more of your weird shit in the hope TIDAL actually has some of it. I found your selections very interesting.
Get used to a pair of Duettas? Hm... I'm not really sure that ever happens. I kind of live in awe of them. They frequently just blow me away and I think "is everyone F'ing nuts? These are obviously one of the finest transducers ever made". I am a hopeless addict!!
Interesting to witness your instant acknowledgement of the change with a simple DAC valve roll. There are 30 valves in that system - change a couple of them and you hear it straight away - it isn't even subtle.
Sure the room looks compromised WRT to size of the speaker. But having heard them in a larger room I can confidently state they are better in the one I have. I do think they are too far forward in the room and will fix that on Sunday. Jon is coming round and we'll actually bolt them together properly. You & Jerry heard them with only 20% or less of the fixing bolts in:D There will be less front panel movement when done but they are pretty inert even without the bolts.
That cello/double bass track was fun - what a great recording too. Sounded almost real.
Anyway glad you have scratched your itch even if it did cost you 5 hours travelling!! You really MUST have wanted to hear a pair;)
My wife liked your style/dress sense BTW:)
In action for those who will inevitably never get close to a good sized Apogee in their entire lives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR9ehP80E2E
jandl100
19-03-2015, 10:03
Ok - so the musicians have warmed up by now - when are they going to start playing some music? :scratch:
:lol:
You need to play Jerry some Shosty….. ;)
Marco.
jandl100
19-03-2015, 10:11
You need to play Jerry some Shosty….. ;)
Marco.
Oh, he has, don't worry.
It didn't sound half bad, either. :thumbsup:
That's the trouble. Play music and they sound terrible:(
Read your e-mail Jerry!
That's the trouble. Play music and they sound terrible:(
Read your e-mail Jerry!
Actually that Big Phat Band brass track that sounded harsh on the JBL Everests in Munich is actually very well recorded indeed, Marco. I have a video of it. May post...
I'm sure it is, Justin.
Like I said, the harshness you heard was most likely down to either an amp/speaker mismatch (the primary culprit, IMO), how JBL are voicing their speakers these days, compared with their best vintage designs (Tannoy also come into the equation here, as the their latest top models sound rather more 'forward and spotlit' than before, and not in a good way), and/or the fundamental characteristics/sonic signature of the show demo system, as influenced by various factors.
Marco.
Yup - that said and like I said, it'd take one hell of a valve amp to sort what I heard, from considerable experience.
Anyway we're agreed we think the older, larger models restored "proper" would do better. In my mind that is unquestionable.
Being flat out honest, objective and as unbiased as I can possibly be, Interstella is the better speaker. Tom's Tannoys are better. Jerry's MBLs are. To these ears.
awkwardbydesign
19-03-2015, 13:08
Ok - so the musicians have warmed up by now - when are they going to start playing some music? :scratch:
:lol:
That was a very long intro, wasn't it? :D
That was a very long intro, wasn't it? :D
You're supposed take E whilst your watching the video Dick and do some cretinous, repetitive dance.:dance:
Don't tell me you didn't?:scratch: On well:)
Anyway we're agreed we think the older, larger models restored "proper" would do better. In my mind that is unquestionable.
Absolutely, and it goes back to what I've always said about hi-fi equipment: newest and/or most expensive isn't always automatically best. You have to ensure that you're paying for what matters most (audio performance), not simply superfluous frippery, looks, 'badge appeal' or boasting rights.
That's why the best (most sonically capable) vintage equipment is championed so much on AoS... Not be because we're 'intransigent dinosaurs', but because quite simply, if something is intrinsically good (or better than what's produced today), then it doesn't matter how old it is! ;)
Being flat out honest, objective and as unbiased as I can possibly be, Interstella is the better speaker. Tom's Tannoys are better. Jerry's MBLs are. To these ears.
Yes, having heard Jerry's MBLs, I'd say that they are likely to be more preferable to my ears, than Everests. I'm sure that Tom's Tannoys would be too, although I've yet to hear them - ditto your Apogees.
When/if you hear my Lockwoods, I'm sure you'd also put those into the same category as the above, although all the speakers concerned will excel in specific areas of their presentation of recorded music. There is no 'perfect' or 'best' anything in hi-fi :)
Marco.
Actually that dude dances cool.
When/if you hear my Lockwoods, I'm sure you'd also put those into the same category as the above, although all the speakers concerned will excel in specific areas of their presentation of recorded music :)
Marco.
Would be interesting. If they could usurp Tom's you'd have an excellent speaker there. Plenty of Tannoys I don't like. Not that keen on Westminster Royals TBH. Kingdom Royals I really like.
Me neither. I don't consider them as being 'proper' Tannoy DCs.
For me, any Tannoys that employ multiple drivers (and use separate bass units), instead of the classic 'point source' single (12 or 15") dual-concentric drivers, aren't 'proper' Tannoys - and don't sound like them either!
Marco.
Firebottle
19-03-2015, 13:47
I kind of live in awe of them.
:lolsign:
Like it :)
awkwardbydesign
19-03-2015, 15:22
You're supposed take E whilst your watching the video Dick and do some cretinous, repetitive dance.:dance:
Don't tell me you didn't?:scratch: On well:)
Cretinous? Repetitive? Moi? Oh, fair enough. Altough Ecstasy came along after I had stopped using such things. Would probably give me a heart attack if I tried it now.
Not been there myself but this is the sort of thing I am on about. I think this got posted on the Wam a while back. Quite amusing though of course I am not advocating it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VJK5YpMLZY
awkwardbydesign
19-03-2015, 17:21
The loon in the dungarees looks like a serial killer.
Yup the kids of today hey? Actually I reckon even that was a few years ago:D
Still got your list of stuff to check out - I have not forgotten will do so soon:)
The loon in the dungarees looks like a serial killer.
Could be, although I had him down more as a washing-line (panty) raider.
Marco.
awkwardbydesign
19-03-2015, 20:12
Yup the kids of today hey? Actually I reckon even that was a few years ago:D
Still got your list of stuff to check out - I have not forgotten will do so soon:)
Also Jerry's recommendation of this was a good'un. 1p + postage from Amazon.
http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/149/MI0001149786.jpg?partner=allrovi.com
Martin Logan Neolith Munich 2014 (60 odd K I expect) versus Interstella. Same camera same settings. I just thought this was quite interesting. The Neolith does have more sonic scale in the flesh but not by that much - it has the benefit of a bigger room here.
Probably won't post anymore as tis all a bit silly really but tech is getting pretty good these days poor sounding speakers had better watchout - things will only get better YouTube\camera wise.
The Apogee video was still processing when I posted the link HD may not be available for a while.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T72mjE4jK9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-P1UJ7rGeE&feature=youtu.be
Obviously not volume matched, they were both loud however - 85-90DB maybe. I'm sure the Moon electronics used in the ML vid costs a fortune.
EDIT: now it's working the Interstella version sounds somewhat brighter to me but I think I might be overloading the input mics a bit i.e. I played back louder. Mind you I think I can hear some of that happening on the ML vid.
Anyway, not too bad.
I much prefer your Apogees!
It's probably mosty the valve factor (as the vocals on your system sound tonally richer and more lifelike, which is what valves always do compared with SS), and the fact that I'm not a big fan of MLs, finding them rather 'tinselly' and 'synthetic' sounding, and a bit full in the bass.
Good result though, Justin, so thanks for sharing that and taking the time and effort to do it :)
Marco.
Much kind words Marco thanks.
Their maker does say it is a tough call beating a decent Apogee at any price. Let us let him live with that pride. He deserves it IMHO.
What he doesn't however deserve is any marks for speed of build. He'd freely admit that.
Mind you we collaboratively made these up and we went along. Not the best recipe for a quick job:D
Seems like you've got a special pair of speakers there, dude. I wouldn't be letting them go anytime soon, if I were you ;)
Marco.
Not for sale. They are mine. There is very, very little out there I prefer at any cost. Taken me 35 years to get to that point:D.
Quite right. I know exactly how you feel.
I feel the same way about my Lockwoods. You intrinsically *know* when something is right. Even when we (most likely) move to a bigger house, I'd never sell the Lockies. They'd simply go into another room, as part of a different system, with the 'main one' featuring a pair of Hartsfields.... ;)
Marco.
Just heard that someone somewhere may well be getting some very special Divas made. It'll be a long wait but they'll just be freakin' awesome I think.
Most impressive; I used to own a pair of Duetta Signatures, driven by the usual big Krells . I also heard a lot of music from the Scintillas and Divas. To this day, I believe that Apogees were probably the greatest range of speakers ever produced. It's hard to explain how lifelike and realistic they could sound, compared with almost any other speaker.
Truly great, and your project makes a lot of sense to me.
I understand why Ken Kessler loved them so much. He's done quite a few rants about them over the years.
The magic only really comes in with the larger models I think - Duetta, Scintilla and above. I'd give a lot to hear a pair of Full Range or Grands in top consition. I doubt there is a pair in this country however.
jandl100
27-03-2015, 09:33
The magic only really comes in with the larger models I think - Duetta, Scintilla and above.
I agree - I had a pair of Caliper Sigs and whilst they were pretty good, they were also obviously flawed by colouration and couldn't move the air with the detail and slam that Justin's Duettas do.
I can't remember properly now - but did the Calipers have a quasi-ribbon tech rather than the full blown McCoy found in higher models? :scratch:
Same tech Jerry.
Quasi ribbon is akin to the lower/mid-range end of the Magnepans where a wire is glued to a flexible membrane and provides the driving force not a true ribbon.
You have to consider that the frequency tuning is as a result of the membrane tension which can and does change over time, a well used and worn pair is likely to be a bit slack and may have the "colouration" you describe as a result.
Regardless of the above; Justins original Duetta Sigs do have more drive and slam than my pretty well preserved Caliper Sigs so you do get benefits as they get bigger.
The main aspect that I believe impacts on the slam is the room loading IMHO, Justin's listening room is quite small (15ft x 11ft?), the Duetta sigs (restored version not the Inter-stella) really drove his room very well with plenty of bass & dynamics. They are normally put in much larger rooms where IMHO the bass impact is lost and you start to benefit from larger panels than the Duetta.
My Caliper Sigs like a small room (or I like the impact & drive from almost overloading the room!) and sound just average in large rooms. As a guide my old room was around 15ft x 11ft and the Caliper Sigs sounded better in a 12ft x 12ft room.
The Caliper Sigs I have heard at hifi shows have not been a patch on how mine sound at home and that is more to do with the room than the actual speakers.
OH BTW hello Justin - long time no speak. Amazing project.
jandl100
27-03-2015, 14:18
JP on AOS :eek: - did I know that? :scratch:
Hi JP :)
Hmm -- I don't think it's a true ribbon design in the Caliper - this from a Stereophile review "Closer examination, however, reveals that whereas the earlier Apogee tweeters hung free, the Caliper tweeter is clamped from the rear about two-thirds of its length from the bottom, and the top third "hinged" back slightly" - a true ribbon design hangs free, I think?
Well, I dunno - JP knows far more about this stuff than I do!
Interesting comments about room loading - my Caliper Sigs were firing down the length of a 13x23 foot room - so maybe too much for them?
Hi Jerry, I tend to lurk but find myself being more interested over here nowadays. I did start here in 2011 ish ;-)
The Caliper Sigs and the Duetta Sigs have bits of foam positioned behind the tweeter ribbon as seen here
http://hifi-advice.com/images/apogee%20disintegrating%20foam%20behind%20the%20MR TW%20500pix.jpg
The older ones may well have had an unsupported ribbon (dunno - i'll take your/the magazines word for it) but this is more evolution or tweaking a design than a change of tech.
The Duetta Sigs restored were clearly better than my Caliper Sigs - how much better the Caliper Sigs would get once restored and in a suitable room I don't know.
My new room is 24ft x 12ft and I have yet to plug the Caliper Sigs in, I suspect they will be pants :-( (currently using NS1000 and a REL storm 3)
Hi JP:)
Hm that Hi-Fi Advice guy swiped that pic from the ML website I think - looks like my original Duettas pre-restoration. If I remember correctly I think he e-mailed me and asked a while back. He has gone through complete Apogee madness if you ask me - just crazy on them!
I think Jon has a pair of Duettas that are completely original at the moment. They belonged to the guy who has my last pair. He says they are in such good condition he doesn't want to touch them. One of the few pairs of originals around that seem to be OK. If anyone would like them give him a call. I think he wants £1800 for them but I haven't heard them.
The foam pivot is just to angle the top section of the ribbon upwards so they sound OK when you stand up. The magnets are angled accordingly. So really by definition it is actually 2 true ribbons made of one long ribbon.
Interstella has Graz's ribbon clamps at the top and bottom of the ribbon. These provide a better anchor and electrical connection. As such the ribbon is actually a bit longer than a standard Duetta.
There are Calipers and Calipers. Dr Rock's that where at Scalford a few years back was one of the first restorations. Jon had a pair I heard a while back that were quite a bit better TBH.
BTW my room if you measure from the front wall to the patio doors behind the listening seat is nearly 18 ft. But it is a little narrow at 11. Hearing Interstella in a wider room in Birmingham didn't give the benefits of greater side space I expected. So that is pretty good news in my book:)
Oh the super Divas if they go ahead would have a mid-range ribbon designed for the Grand I believe. Think Jon said it is 4 element and will go louder. The guy that might, and I say might get them has a very large room and likes it seriously loud. I think standard Divas did 115DB anyway... so the mind boggles.
Yup - Diva spec is 115db SPL @ 4m with 100W amplifier in a 18'x25'x8' room.
Otherwise he goes for a super expensive Graz built Duetta I believe.
Same tech Jerry.
Quasi ribbon is akin to the lower/mid-range end of the Magnepans where a wire is glued to a flexible membrane and provides the driving force not a true ribbon.
You have to consider that the frequency tuning is as a result of the membrane tension which can and does change over time, a well used and worn pair is likely to be a bit slack and may have the "colouration" you describe as a result.
Regardless of the above; Justins original Duetta Sigs do have more drive and slam than my pretty well preserved Caliper Sigs so you do get benefits as they get bigger.
The main aspect that I believe impacts on the slam is the room loading IMHO, Justin's listening room is quite small (15ft x 11ft?), the Duetta sigs (restored version not the Inter-stella) really drove his room very well with plenty of bass & dynamics. They are normally put in much larger rooms where IMHO the bass impact is lost and you start to benefit from larger panels than the Duetta.
My Caliper Sigs like a small room (or I like the impact & drive from almost overloading the room!) and sound just average in large rooms. As a guide my old room was around 15ft x 11ft and the Caliper Sigs sounded better in a 12ft x 12ft room.
The Caliper Sigs I have heard at hifi shows have not been a patch on how mine sound at home and that is more to do with the room than the actual speakers.
OH BTW hello Justin - long time no speak. Amazing project.
There are some nice bass panel tension adjusters in Interstella. If the tension does change I'll pick it up on FR checks, and just re-adjust. But yeah, tension is a problem for ESLs too. Kapton and mylar must degrade over time to some extent I would think.
Panel size versus room size - the Calipers at Scalford were in a huge room and TBH I thought they sounded lost in there. Nice, but lost and lacking dynamics. For some reason rather odd/inconsistent imaging too.
Welcome back, daftee! ;)
Marco.
Welcome back, daftee! ;)
Marco.
I told you I wasn't that pissed...:) Besides, how could I resist?:D
Indeed. Who else would have you? :eyebrows: :D
;)
Marco.
Now it might just be me being the variable in this equation, but for the past two evenings these speakers have sounded just utterly stunning. There may be more to come with even more hours, but I'm really starting to get the feeling they are showing signs of being quite well run in.
The mid range is calming down and starting to assume an easy, effortless super high resolution quality. The overall balance is getting slightly warmer, as it the weather, LOL. Extraordinary bass resolution and control with the sensation that throughout the frequency range everything is happening "super quickly" and as if no fine detail is being missed. The imaging is very spatial and very precise - far beyond the original design's capability.
I had been applying a little parametric EQ to calm down the mid range. I'm not doing that at all now as it just isn't required. I'm just sitting there now thinking expletives in astonishment. Result.
That probably reads like a self-congratulatory (it probably is TBH) and maybe a "try and make people jealous" post, but if you can get past that and accept that I am trying to be objective here, these things are performing beyond my expectations of the effect the specification changes would make.
It's been quite rewarding to learn that doing what appeared to me to be obvious to make a better Duetta has actually resulted, in, well - a substantially better than expected Duetta.
I accept that my "trying to be objective" is impossibly biased, though. These things are just totally my cup of tea and they won't be everybody's.
The origianal Hifi News Apogee Scintilla review is reprinted in the months issue.
Bit of a cock up as their reference to a picture of the Scintilla is actually the smaller Caliper. Slap.
Playing with OneDrive, here's some spent Apogee bass panel shots. It's a bit crimpled as I have had it hanging around the house for quite a while. The slits in it form a circuit, the backing (yellow) is Kapton, as developed by DuPont and used by NASA for solar sails in space, the front is aluminium foil which is literally glued onto it.
Kapton has been troublesome as an electrical insulator and breaks down at high temps, causing fires in aircraft. The Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton) entry is interesting.
It would appear to last for decades in Apogees. Any Apogee bass panel failures are not due to the breakdown of this material in this application, though there maybe some loss of performance. I just don't know really.
Bass panel pics. (https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=258D524E1CD72595!479&authkey=!AOdCfpjpXZqjhqI&ithint=folder%2c)
Room refurb and +ve proof you don't need 1.1 Gigawatts to get decent volume from an Apogee.
Not very scientific, but you get the idea... video partially taken for a chap on another forum who is paranoid 100 Watts of valve power won't be enough. In room this is loud. Not club loud. But quite loud.
Accuphase meters on peak power reading. SPL meter better than an iPhone you'd hope.;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C61EfuhyHeM
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