Systemdek Setup?

[Rothchild]

Hi All,

I took delivery of my new (to me) Systemdek iix900 this week and have had an evening tweaking and listening to get it setup. It's got a Moth (Rega) RB300 and for the time being I've fitted it up with the budget Ortofon OM cart from my Project Genie to get me going.

(the rest of the chain is a (pretty gutsy) TEAC A-R 500 and Armstrong 602s)

I'm after any thoughts or tips for setup (or if what I'm hearing is indeed a 'feature' of this deck / arm /cart combo)

The presentation is almost overbearingly forward and there seems (to me at least) to be a big scoop around 400hz. It's not that there's no bass, there's masses of it (and done nicely too) in the very lowest registers but the 'nose/body' of the bass seems really recessed.

It works great on Dave Brubeck but makes The Meters virtually un-listenable (when the same record sounded fine on the same setup with the Genie) because it's making so much of the crunch of the high-hat but there's no body to the bass guitar to balance it out. I'm hearing similar issues across all sorts of soul and motown records where that area of the low bass is crucial the impact of the song.

I set the deck up using the RB300 Stevenson protractor from the Vinyl engine and, i'm ashamed to say that, the cartridge weight is currently guessed cos I can't find my little balance scale, I've tried it lighter and heavier but neither seem to make much difference in trying to find the missing bass register.

Any thoughts as to what I can do to get my low-mid back?

[DSJR]

The tracking force scale on the RB300 is perfectly accurate and an OM3 should track at 2g, an OM5 at around 1.75 to 2g (the Debut 2 set the OM5 at 2g although tracking is fine at 1.75g). The OM10 is around 1.75 and the 20 upwards should be set to 1.5g IIRC..

Make sure the arm base is firmly tight (not silly tight, but no obvious movement) to the arm board, the exit cable isn't telling the suspension what to do and the platter is sitting what I remember to be 5mm or so from the top plate. Once this is about right, check the belt for central running in it's guide. If the belt is stretched, buy a new one.. The motor can be tilted a little one way or the other to get the belt right, but don't go at it until you've checked everything else.

I'd play the deck sans lid too.

The sub-chassis' on Systemdecks generally were a bit Michell-like, a bit swimmy rather than piston-like as Thorens and Linns are/were. There must be plenty of lateral movement available back and forth as well as side-to side and the tonearm exit cable must be clamped gently somewhere before leaving the deck (I can't remember on the II/900, but it could be fixed on the bigger model.

Hope this helps :) This combination was superb as I recall, although with a K9 instead of the OM cartridge, which should be a bit 'scrappy' rather than overblown..

[Rothchild]

Thanks Dave, very helpful. I went back to the manual and tracking force is now set appropriately.

I'm guess I'm still getting used to the sound, I was just a/b ing between a digital and vinyl version of Donald Fagen's 'IGY' (from the nightfly) and actually the difference is pretty small, I can see why people get in to putting valve stages in these things as the forwardness of the treble (or the recession of mid depending how you hear it) is a bit clinical. When I put a Chic record on I want to hear all of Bernard but it still feels like there's something missing (which although the Genie didn't have the same precision as this deck it also did bloody well at getting that low mid over!).

I'll go over all the other tweaks you've mentioned, a new belt will have to wait until the end of the month. :violin:

Thanks again.

[datawireless]

Hi Marc,

I think you will find that belt tracks just right on the pulley and that the belt will not be your problem at this stage. The suspension was set up for the RB300 and DL-304 which is heavier than the Ortofon OM cartridges but not that much to make the difference. RB300 anti-scating bias correction is not the world's most accurate and I would try holding it down a little lower than the VTF setting, say 1.5 - 1.6 and see how that works for you.

After that you are into cartridge frequency response profile territory but also in the influence area of the platter mat. Try your felt mat and see how the balance works for you. Should take out some of the up-front treble you were mentioning without loosing you the level of detail.

Oh yes, and lose the dust lid during all this work (and afterwards).

Regards,
Mike

[DSJR]

Many RB300's need the bias to be set around a third to half the tracking force - sorry, I forgot.. :mental:

[Rothchild]

Thanks gents,

I'm getting more settled with it now.

One thing though, how the hell do you get it to stay at 45?! I get the platter off and nudge the belt down to the lower ring of the motor pulley, but the action of putting the platter back down keeps knocking the belt enough to bounce it back to 33. I'm sure either I'm doing something wrong or that there's a knack that I'm lacking but it's pretty annoying.

Incidently I did already swap over to the felt mat, it was one of the first things I tried as I wasn't sure what the difference was supposed to be and the Missus doesn't like the aesthetic of the cork one, can't say that this knowledge didn't queer the pitch a bit but I ended up on the felt. ;-)

[Rothchild]

I still can't get it to hold at 45rpm! I've done what it says in the manual and pressed down the subplatter to situate the belt when I move it to the lower 'sprocket' but when I start the motor it automatically jumps back to the 33 spindle, this is infuriating, throw us a line here guys, what's the secret to getting it to stay at 45rpm, I've got some bad ass old school Jungle joints that need rocking out here! ;-)

[datawireless]

I still can't get it to hold at 45rpm! I've done what it says in the manual and pressed down the subplatter to situate the belt when I move it to the lower 'sprocket' but when I start the motor it automatically jumps back to the 33 spindle, this is infuriating, throw us a line here guys, what's the secret to getting it to stay at 45rpm, I've got some bad ass old school Jungle joints that need rocking out here! ;-)

I never tried the 45 rpm speed. There is if I remember correctly an adjustment screw for motor position adjustment although I was not sure what it was meant to do exactly. If this will lower and raise the motor assembly then you may be able to get the 45 rpm pulley to hold the belt at 45. If you have tried this already, please ignore this.

Regards,
Mike

[Rare Bird]

Marc:
I used to have a pair of those Armstrong '602' loudspeakers, i seem to remember i didnt like the bottom end.

[Andrew B]

From memory, I think you need to adjust the 3point suspension so that it is not only level, but is also at the correct height to accommodate both speeds. The motor needs to be level too, and operating on the same plane as the sub platter. It's pretty typical of any suspended deck in this respect.

[DSJR]

Assuming the belt is correct and not stretched, the motor should be TILTED with the adjustment screws to allow the belt to run centrally on each pulley 'step.'

Once the belt is positioned on the 45 pulley, can you gently spin the platter by hand to get everything in place before powering up? Another thing is to 'help' the platter up to speed by a nudge to the edge when starting. Never let the belt alone haul the deck to speed if possible.

[Rare Bird]

Thats right Davo o theres an allen head grub screw set in the top board

[Rothchild]

Marc:
I used to have a pair of those Armstrong '602' loudspeakers, i seem to remember i didnt like the bottom end.

Interesting, I find the very bottom end fine for me (as in the kinda 150Hz down sorta zone) the area I'm struggling with at the moment is that 'body' area (200-400Hz) which all of sudden doesn't seem as coherent (but I may just be overlistening cos I got new toys!)

Thanks for all the input on adjustments through, I'll probably not have chance to play properly with them until next week now but I'll filter through what you've all said and see how it fits with what I can see on the deck and try to put it all together (and with any luck my neighbours will be enjoying the Suburban Bass classic 'Stamina' and other ragga jungle classics very soon! ;-))

[Rothchild]

Assuming the belt is correct and not stretched, the motor should be TILTED with the adjustment screws to allow the belt to run centrally on each pulley 'step.'

Spot on, thanks Dave. I just tipped the motor back a bit with the adjustment screw and we're all up and running now.

[datawireless]

Any progress with that mid-bass suck-out?

Regards,
Mike

[Rothchild]

Any progress with that mid-bass suck-out?


I'm afraid life (well mostly work) is getting in the way of me getting any good quality HiFi time at the moment so I've not been able to play any further, but given that it's pay day this week I may stretch to a new cart next week. Any recommendations in the sub £80(is) budget range?

[datawireless]

For that sort of money, and knowing your preferences for certain sound, hard to pick one. Moving magnet I guess, perhaps a Grado Prestige Silver 1? Going back in time, an Audio Technica AT-F3/OCC or AT-F5/OCC mc cartridges (a good second hand one) may be good too. And why not, try a Shure or two.

Perhaps some of my colleagues will be able to offer an enlightened choice for the IIX900 / RB300 combination destined to work in the lower registers?
Either of the two I mentioned above are in my reserve store, both a bit above your price target.

With regards,
Mike

[Rothchild]

Thanks for the tips, anyone have any thoughts on how the Ortofon red is likely to stack up in this combo? I suspect it's probably not that different from the OM that's in there, or is it?

[DSJR]

The Prestige Grado's until recently were dull, dull dull and got worse as you went from the Black to the Gold. many 'analogue' people like it though.. There's supposed to be a heavily revised range now, with re-wired coils and shorter cantilevers, which may well fix this. I haven't heard the latest ones though..

Cartridges have shot up in price in recent years, way more than 'just' the exchange rate IMO. Good luck :)

[Rothchild]

Thanks Dave,

In general what is increasing my budget likely to get me? If I stepped up a whole order of magnitude and sprung for a Denon 103 what should I expect to get from it over my lowly OM cart? Right now I wouldn't mind something that was a little less toppy (or dull, if you will) if I can get (relatively) a bit more going on in the lower mid, but my listening is pretty varied so I do want something that's a good all-rounder too.

In other news I did a bit of box swapping and have gone back to my trusty (super budget) Yamaha AX396 (not actually radically different to the TEAC tonally, but the phono stage is much quieter)