View Full Version : Why is British retail so poor?
I am as sweet and reasonable as the next man and really quite patient but I am bewildered by recent experiences. I don't know if this kind of behaviour is widespread but I'm really quite taken aback by my recent experiences of British retail practice, not least when we are told that times are tough. (I'm not going to name names because it is a general point and there may be specific circumstances which explain individual behaviour in certain instances.)
I have spent over £15k so far in the last year on various bits of hi fi kit and am in the market for some more - I'd guess another £5k's worth, so not trivial.
In the last few weeks, I have made serious enquiries of two well-known and highly regarded dealers in London only for messages to be read and not replied to, and follow up phone messages not returned. The same is also true of a couple of second hand dealers. OK, they are not obliged to take my business, or indeed anyone else's, but you would expect at least the common courtesy of a response. And it's not just hi fi - I've had the same from central heating and lighting suppliers. (Nothing untoward or discourteous in my communications - just run-of-the-mill sales enquiries BTW:).)
At the risk of being controversial on a forum like this, do they not realise that all hi fi spend is discretionary, although habit forming?
My recent experiences remind me how I was treated in the old days at a couple of Mercedes dealerships (which is why I stopped buying Mercs...). I really do not consider it a privilege that dealers make time to deal with me, and I should not have to press; it is what they need to do with good grace if they want to see my cash. In short, I expect friendly and efficient service.
And, as indicated above, you might expect them to be all over me like the proverbial cheap suit in the current climate.
I now work for myself, but I'd have been sacked by my previous employers if I'd treated our (prospective) punters in this way.
I won't be going back to any of them in future.
Anyway, is it just me?
icehockeyboy
14-06-2013, 12:17
Erm, if I may reply, albeit not on the points you have raised, but just to enquire if this post would actually be more at home in a different section of AOS, Probably Abstract Chat?
:)
Erm, if I may reply, albeit not on the points you have raised, but just to enquire if this post would actually be more at home in a different section of AOS?
:)
I put it here because it seemed relevant to the hifi trade but if the mods think it should go elsewhere, I'd be grateful if it were moved and I apologise for miscasting.
Peter
Hi Craig,
That will depend on where the discussion goes from here, either to something mainly hi-fi related or otherwise. It it's otherwise, the thread will be moved into Blank Canvas :)
Good thread, Peter. I'm sure that many will have their views on this!
Marco.
The thing to do is not to spend such silly money on stereo gear in the first place :lol:
Most HiFi dealers have always been an insular lot - I speak as an ex-sales 'consultant' who worked in a couple of the once big Linn/Naim dealerships for many many years (as well as having the good sense to listen and play with other non-we kinds of gear that kept my sanity...). These arrogant or downright sloppy dealers deserve all they get in all honesty and you may just find that they are two of the very few dealers left who can just sit back passively and wait for the rich punters like yourself to stroll in and tell them what they want - up-market Sevenoaks in other words.. I learned my lessons quite late, but did eventually once the blinkers came fully off.
If you really feel the need to spend thousands of quid on a stereo, there are good dealers outside of London who I'm sure would be delighted to see you ans help you make an informed choice. Even in London, I very much doubt the likes of Walrus Systems would treat you badly, although the Absolute Sounds-owned dealer a few streets away may make you feel inferior if you didn't come loaded with dosh to spend on their blingy confections...
Selling cars is slightly different, as the chance of comparative dems is all but non existant. You enter a Merc dealership knowing roughly what model you want and the sales guy merely has to fleece you for all the often pricey add-ons he can to bolster up his commission. A good hifi sales chap went to work in BMW Park Lane and the first thing for him was to visit competing makers' dealerships to fully understand what the competition was doing. Practically all his clients knew what BMW they wanted, he mainly had to sell up with add-ons as much as possible.....
icehockeyboy
14-06-2013, 12:23
I put it here because it seemed relevant to the hifi trade but if the mods think it should go elsewhere, I'd be grateful if it were moved and I apologise for miscasting.
Peter
General Hifi chat is I believe what this section is all about, I may be wrong, but I honestly don't think talking about how various sections of retail treat you is what it's for.
As I said, I may be wrong. :)
icehockeyboy
14-06-2013, 12:27
Hi Craig,
That will depend on where the discussion goes from here, either to something mainly hi-fi related or otherwise. It it's otherwise, the thread will be moved into Blank Canvas.
Marco.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but its actually already in Blank Canvas! Lol!
The thing to do is not to spend such silly money on stereo gear in the first place :lol:
Most HiFi dealers have always been an insular lot - I speak as an ex-sales 'consultant' who worked in a couple of the once big Linn/Naim dealerships for many many years (as well as having the good sense to listen and play with other non-we kinds of gear that kept my sanity...). These arrogant or downright sloppy dealers deserve all they get in all honesty and you may just find that they are two of the very few dealers left who can just sit back passively and wait for the rich punters like yourself to stroll in and tell them what they want - up-market Sevenoaks in other words.. I learned my lessons quite late, but did eventually once the blinkers came fully off.
If you really feel the need to spend thousands of quid on a stereo, there are good dealers outside of London who I'm sure would be delighted to see you ans help you make an informed choice. Even in London, I very much doubt the likes of Walrus Systems would treat you badly, although the Absolute Sounds-owned dealer a few streets away may make you feel inferior if you didn't come loaded with dosh to spend on their blingy confections...
Selling cars is slightly different, as the chance of comparative dems is all but non existant. You enter a Merc dealership knowing roughly what model you want and the sales guy merely has to fleece you for all the often pricey add-ons he can to bolster up his commission. A good hifi sales chap went to work in BMW Park Lane and the first thing for him was to visit competing makers' dealerships to fully understand what the competition was doing. Practically all his clients knew what BMW they wanted, he mainly had to sell up with add-ons as much as possible.....
Actually, I'm not particularly rich - I simply do a hifi splurge every decade or so. But I do subscribe to the views that (a) quality is remembered long after price is forgotten and (b) economising on capital items usually ends up costing more whole of life than buying first class kit in the first place. Which is not to say that there isn't a lot of overpriced crap out there...
BTW - only one of the London dealers is West End and could be described as "blingy" - the other (without giving too much away) is generally very well regarded and for serious but not overly rich clients.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but its actually already in Blank Canvas! Lol!
Sorry, my error. I meant moved from BC into Abstract Chat... However, I suspect that won't be necessary :)
Marco.
Firebottle
14-06-2013, 13:05
Having had limited exposure to the buying public/consumers through out my career doesn't blinker me to the fact that customers want service!
Not being blessed with the 'gift of the gab', I could never have made a salesman. I have always been on the technical side of things but when problems have been explained to customers they have always appreciated the honesty.
My wife has been in sales positions and is also very up front with customers. Guess who disgruntled customers always wanted to speak to? Yes, my wife, because they always got an answer, not necessarily what they wanted to hear, but truthful information.
Why o why any retailer doesn't appreciate that customers pay their wages is beyond me.
:cool:Alan
PS You might as well be dog doodoo as far as service in some French outlets is concerned :mental:
Very sweeping title "Why is British retail so poor" when the thread is about speaking to a couple of London retailers & another couple of 2nd hand dealers. Maybe "Is British HiFi retail poor?" is a more appropriate title.
Take Deco Audio for instance. I was trying to purchase some Something Solid SL24 stands, which they couldn't courier to me due to packing / damage possibilies, so they got them shuttled to a closer dealer, which I then got my courier to pick up and deliver to me. Excellent service all the way.
Alan Sircom
14-06-2013, 14:47
Yes, there are problems with UK retail, not exclusive to hi-fi retail, but hi-fi retail has the disadvantage of being small enough that the sales avoidance officers are all the more notable. The problem then becomes one bad dealer tarnishes the reputations of a dozen good ones, in part because bad news sells.
In the current climate however, surviving hi-fi dealers are often extremely small. Sometimes just a one-man-band. And anyone who's tried to run something on less than a shoestring will often find that it's impossible to execute the job properly when you are doing all the client-facing and the back-office jobs at once. The phone doesn't get answered because you are out on install or in an demonstration, and you end up with three hours worth of calls and an hour of time to make them. Emails don't get returned for the same reasons. It's deeply unprofessional and paints a dreadful picture of the audio business, but even the best time management courses on the planet cannot cram 15 hours worth of things happening in an eight hour day.
We're also at a strange time now. Dealers are getting busy again, but they are still waiting for the other shoe to drop. That makes them too busy for the current staff levels to manage, but too scared of the future to add more staff. So, they tend to micromanage the tasks in hand at the expense of potential future business, because while the guy on the phone might not ever ring back, that's better than the guy who ordered the £10,000 system cancelling his order because you didn't deliver it on time.
We still fare better than the US here. Practically everyone who bought audio on the East Coast prides themselves on being thrown out of Andy Singer's store for a variety of 'transgressions', including saying 'how much is it?'. They have stores that forget to take your booking and refuse to serve you even though you flew across the country to see them, they have no other bookings that day and the system is already running. They have stores that answer calls with "$50,000! I don't get out of bed for $50,000. That only buys you 'mid-fi'!" Places that claim they stock the product you were interested in and then try to sell you something else because they were never even a dealer for the brand. And more. And worse. If anything, we are about average in dealer quality on an international level, and way above the mark in terms of being within striking distance of a dealer.
It's worth remembering that when discussing 'blingy confection', you are talking about a very specific clientele who view walking into the average hi-fi shop with the same enthusiasm as they would stepping into a diseased lung. If you are used to doing your big-ticket transactions in stores with marble floors to sales people who wear suits, you are unlikely to push tens of thousands toward someone in a room that looks like it's Mother's room from Psycho and to a guy who thinks it's OK to wear last week's breakfast on his polo shirt. That they also end up with products that look good and sound good, usually means they spend over the odds. It might not be the stuff you approve of, but that doesn't make it any less of a grossly snobbish attitude.
freefallrob
14-06-2013, 15:00
This thread has to have this in it I'm afraid!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TxQqWSnsHoA
I feel better now.
Oldpinkman
14-06-2013, 15:05
The thing to do is not to spend such silly money on stereo gear in the first place :lol:
Most HiFi dealers have always been an insular lot - I speak as an ex-sales 'consultant' who worked in a couple of the once big Linn/Naim dealerships for many many years (as well as having the good sense to listen and play with other non-we kinds of gear that kept my sanity...). These arrogant or downright sloppy dealers deserve all they get in all honesty and you may just find that they are two of the very few dealers left who can just sit back passively and wait for the rich punters like yourself to stroll in and tell them what they want - .
Oh Boy - I remember those. It is extraordinarily sad, but I notice and comment when I get good service now (which often is in France actually - maybe because I'm fluent). My recent (minor) skirmishes with Hifi shops, including dragging the missus out to drive me after corneal graft surgery, caused her to comment to a friend "of course Richard knows more than all theses Hifi shops". Since the friend in question genuinely knows what he is talking about, and knows I don't, I feel he did well in the circumstances to disguise his choking fit as hay fever, and smile politely. A strong wind off the North Sea helped us pretend we hadnt heard...
Personally, I always buy second hand if possible, and not just per cost, although I much prefer getting some quality gear off of someone who has treated the equipment well and most of these people are honest, like the guys on here.
but the same goes for most things now. A lot of the people in retail are not knowledgeable or particularly interested and are just picking up a wage check. The days of the small private shops are gone, as are proper family GP's. when I was young my doctor knew me and my family, and if I had been I'll would pop in on his rounds just to check...fat chance of getting one out now.
so, the lesson here is buy you stuff through the likes of aos.
Pieoftheday
14-06-2013, 16:03
ive had great experience with my local dealer, hifi i mean;) over the last year, he even undercut internet prices without me hagglin :eek:
Hi Alan,
It's worth remembering that when discussing 'blingy confection', you are talking about a very specific clientele who view walking into the average hi-fi shop with the same enthusiasm as they would stepping into a diseased lung. If you are used to doing your big-ticket transactions in stores with marble floors to sales people who wear suits, you are unlikely to push tens of thousands toward someone in a room that looks like it's Mother's room from Psycho and to a guy who thinks it's OK to wear last week's breakfast on his polo shirt.
Indeed, but the scenario you've exaggerated for effect isn't representative of the situation at most decent hi-fi dealers, and I have a problem with citing extremes as the norm ;)
The reality is that most good dealers inhabit unpretentious surroundings, but which are usually perfectly clean and fit for purpose, and they are dressed smartly enough for the job in hand. All the pretentious frippery you mention comes at a price (and a very large one if your shop happens to be in or around London), in terms of overhead costs, which eats into the 'bang', when you're spending your buck.
Now that might be fine, if you have more money than sense, but most of us when buying hi-fi equipment want the bulk of our hard-earned investment to be realised in out-and-out sonic performance, not from being served by a snooty 'hooray' in an a Saville Row suit looking down their noses at you if you're not spending the cost of a small house.
No offence, but the sort of 'aspirational', ostentatious, retail environment you're describing and suggesting as 'the high-end norm' is precisely what would make the young blood run a mile, which we need to attract now, in order to sustain interest in our hobby!!
Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, long live the 'little guys' in their dingy little shops and wee-stained joggers, who invest in their businesses what matters most: a genuine passion for what they're doing and a commitment to offer their customers the best possible service - and yes, I know of quite a few people (some on this forum) who fit that category, although sometimes they change their trousers.....
Marco.
icehockeyboy
14-06-2013, 16:17
Not sure I'd want to be served by someone in wee stained joggers Marco!
Oldpinkman
14-06-2013, 16:23
Ah - the tale of US retailers and big bucks reminds me of a tale that friend with the hearing problem in a north sea breeze told me that very day as we discussed "high end".
I genuinely forget the name of these speakers, but they were $120,000 and the punter bought them unseen and unheard trusting the dealer (from several hundred miles away). My friends brother (a loudspeaker designer in the USA) happened to be there when they arrived. They were not good - no bass, almost like they were wired out of phase - which was highly amusing to Andrew, because it was his speakers they were replacing. He hadn't got a meter, so had to use a battery, and feel the direction of the cone movement (which was a tad inaccessible) - and sure enough, they were wired out of phase, and had to be crated up to be returned, with a note that they had been checked onsite by the relevant expert from the rival manufacturer.
That beats my brand new £28,000 (1995) Land Rover Discovery being supplied with a steering wheel that squeaked. $120,000 for speakers that he hadnt listened to - supplied with one drive unit wired out of phase. And you complain about our dealers??
Not sure I'd want to be served by someone in wee stained joggers Marco!
Lol - I was exaggering for effect, like Alan was!
Marco.
Walrus Systems is worth trying as when I went in last year the bloke was very pleasant even though I announced myself as a tyre kicker from the off.
Wednesday I had a day off and as my phone contract is up the local store has been bombarding me with text messages to renew. So I went along - no-one in the shop just the salesman who was talking on the phone. He didn't even acknowledge me, just carried on talking and walked off into the back of the shop. Five minutes later I could still hear him gabbling away so I walked out. If I was his boss and saw that he would be out the door with a boot up his arse. Sadly it is all too common and it is a British thing - never would happen in the U.S - well never has to me anyways.
Why didn't you say something to him, Martin? I don't tolerate sheer ignorance like that and, after a few minutes I'd have walked up to the counter and made it very obvious that I wanted some attention!!
Marco.
I walked into the shop and walked straight up to the counter - quite obvious I wanted attention (and to give them some money). He walked straight in the back without even a backwards glance.
Jeez, as blatant as that? Well, in that case, I'd have shouted out in a very loud voice: "Get yer f*cking arse out here pronto, before I call your head office and complain and have you sacked!!"
Then watch the twat move... ;)
Honestly, I'm not kidding, anyone who knows me will know that I have a zero tolerance policy towards shoddy service (and especially sheer ignorance).
Marco.
Ten years ago I probably would have done the same. I can't be arsed these days. Let them go broke and onto the dole where they can mope about blaming Thatcher or something for their troubles. That's punishment enough :)
Ten years ago I probably would have done the same. I can't be arsed these days. Let them go broke and onto the dole where they can mope about blaming Thatcher or something for their troubles. That's punishment enough :)
Lol... If I'd had time, I'd have waited and timed how long he was on the phone for, and then when he came out, I'd have got his name, called the company's head office, on my mobile, right in front of the dickhead, and asked to speak with their personnel department, and to someone there in authority, and told them exactly what had happened and been done by whom and in what branch.
Even if it had zero effect (which I doubt knowing in general how the retail business environment works), it would be worth it just to watch the asshole squirm!!
Marco.
These days I very rarely deal with audio retailers, but I have just had a cartridge rebuilt by David at Goldring and his service and communication have been exemplary. He took time to discuss the various options and emailed me with updates and info. Even when there was a technical problem with their on line payment system the lady from accounts phoned me straight away and sorted it out :).
I recently bought a cable from Witch Hat Audio and that arrived a day earlier than I was told.
So there is good service - but I also agree that there is poor. I once tried to deal with a well known dealer of second hand gear and his communication was complete crap!
To be fair, if I was spending in the K's I'd probably visit first anyway. Face to face is much better than phone and email for me would be a non starter. The dealers that I use are first rate although to be fair, despite living in London, none are within the M 25. All would be happy to loan equipment once they know you and a few have put themselves out a great deal. None of them are chain companies. Good dealers are alive and kicking - seek and you will find. One in particular contributes frequently to this forum!
Walrus Systems is worth trying as when I went in last year the bloke was very pleasant even though I announced myself as a tyre kicker from the off.
Wednesday I had a day off and as my phone contract is up the local store has been bombarding me with text messages to renew. So I went along - no-one in the shop just the salesman who was talking on the phone. He didn't even acknowledge me, just carried on talking and walked off into the back of the shop. Five minutes later I could still hear him gabbling away so I walked out. If I was his boss and saw that he would be out the door with a boot up his arse. Sadly it is all too common and it is a British thing - never would happen in the U.S - well never has to me anyways.
I agree about Walrus and I hope that I am the first to give credit where it is due: there are others - Audio Gold in Crouch End, Rob at Sonata, John at Loud and Clear and Hughie at the Deal bit of Emporium are recent good experiences of mine with excellent customer service. I have also recommended the quality of service of Mark Dolbear, Mike Solomons and Stephen Horowitz on this forum.
I have also heard very good things about Deco Audio and Aylesbury is not that far from me but probably too far to get them to help set up a turntable in North London if that is what I needed. And, when I live in one of the great world cities, why should I need to?
Most of these must be facing the same pressures to which Alan Sircom refers above but they seem able to do the customer service thing.
I run a small business and understand these pressures all too well. I am superstitious about failing to follow up enquiries or turning away business because I never know if it will ever come back, and when I have to decline somebody at least I will have replied quickly and have explained clearly the situation. I often work fifteen/eighteen hour days to deliver for my clients and then deal with the sales and admin, not to mention all the sh*t the government throws at me - it is part of running your own business and if you don't do it, you don't last.
I would have been perfectly happy to receive a message saying that they could not deal with my query immediately but would be in touch within a given period of time.
julesd68
14-06-2013, 18:27
Hi Peter,
I had some similar experiences to you on my last hi-fi splurge some months ago and also started a thread about it back then.
I too was amazed by the shoddiness and indifference of numerous dealers. The answer for me ended up being quite simple - sticking to buying and selling with the on-line hi-fi community. It's just such a more pleasant experience on the whole! A lot of these dealers need to seriously raise their game to get trust and confidence back. Bit like the banks after the PPI saga.
You're in North London - have you tried Adrian at Audioflair? He's one of the good guys. :trust:
hmm.. when the vendor / designer / builder of the one-man show feels his word is the only one valid AND that all other opinions / sales methods / whatever is wrong AND you get on the wrong side of these views OR you just have a system fault somewhere OR he thinks you're just another idiot unknowledgable client... THEN you're in deep sh--t and very lonely when dealing with this kind of company model.
hmm.. when the vendor / designer / builder of the one-man show feels his word is the only one valid AND that all other opinions / sales methods / whatever is wrong AND you get on the wrong side of these views OR you just have a system fault somewhere OR he thinks you're just another idiot unknowledgable client... THEN you're in deep sh--t and very lonely when dealing with this kind of company model.
This sentence reads like a computer software...
I'll have to compile it and run it tomorrow morning :lol:
Walrus Systems is worth trying as when I went in last year the bloke was very pleasant even though I announced myself as a tyre kicker from the off.
Wednesday I had a day off and as my phone contract is up the local store has been bombarding me with text messages to renew. So I went along - no-one in the shop just the salesman who was talking on the phone. He didn't even acknowledge me, just carried on talking and walked off into the back of the shop. Five minutes later I could still hear him gabbling away so I walked out. If I was his boss and saw that he would be out the door with a boot up his arse. Sadly it is all too common and it is a British thing - never would happen in the U.S - well never has to me anyways.
That's strange behaviour for a salesman, Martin... :mental:
Perhaps the phone-call was utterly important ? :scratch:
Audioman
14-06-2013, 20:07
hmm.. when the vendor / designer / builder of the one-man show feels his word is the only one valid AND that all other opinions / sales methods / whatever is wrong AND you get on the wrong side of these views OR you just have a system fault somewhere OR he thinks you're just another idiot unknowledgable client... THEN you're in deep sh--t and very lonely when dealing with this kind of company model.
Still on about NVA (in coded language)? Frankly I think you already made a bit of an ass of yourself about that one. See you got the amps back anyway and hope now working correctly.
This sentence reads like a computer software...
I'll have to compile it and run it tomorrow morning :lol:
:lol:
let me know what you get after compilation
Still on about NVA (in coded language)? Frankly I think you already made a bit of an ass of yourself about that one. See you got the amps back anyway and hope now working correctly.
I wish you would stop being the German Shepard dog who thinks he has to bark at something he has not the slightest clue about. thank you.
btw. if you want to attract any attention to this thread, you are on the best way.
Guys,
How many times do I need to say that arguments relating to RD and/or his forum are not permitted for discussion here? The next one to ignore this rule will be banned for a week, without any further warning. I do hope I've made myself clear!!
Marco.
What's confusing, Rupert? You don't mention on AoS *anything* about fall-outs with RD or his forum, and that also applies to Paul and every other member here!
Marco.
I was intent on keeping my proposition as generic and as discreet as possible as it does relate to the topic ... but then it got shot at with tracer ammo.. ok, you're right, it's not worth the negative vibes.
Hi Peter,
I had some similar experiences to you on my last hi-fi splurge some months ago and also started a thread about it back then.
I too was amazed by the shoddiness and indifference of numerous dealers. The answer for me ended up being quite simple - sticking to buying and selling with the on-line hi-fi community. It's just such a more pleasant experience on the whole! A lot of these dealers need to seriously raise their game to get trust and confidence back. Bit like the banks after the PPI saga.
You're in North London - have you tried Adrian at Audioflair? He's one of the good guys. :trust:
Hi Jules
Thanks for the Audioflair tip - I'll follow that up.
I'll drop you a PM about the Brubeck LPs shortly - I haven't forgotten.
P
Oldpinkman
15-06-2013, 07:12
I almost wonder about starting a new thread. I think sadly british retail, with some delightful exceptions, is poor. And that is by no means confined to hifi. But it is in part caused by progress and the web. It costs money to pay rates and staff and you can't charge for service and advice upfront. You have to put it in the price of goods. If you are competing with a bloke with a shed in wales knocking out the same kit on the web at half the price - with half the overheads, you go out of business. I have been part of a large discussion about this on facebook. A mate of mine was called in to advise jessops. In short, we concluded you needed to know your stuff and offer advice or support you just couldn't get from the web. For example - I buy my rc helicopters from a shop run by enthusiasts who can show me how to mend them - in the shop.
Surely hifi is one of these products? How do you buy an £1100 mc cartridge 2nd hand unseen - never mind unheard? I have talked with a mate about relaunching a product without dealers to keep the price down (& see my agreement with dsjr earlier). We concluded we could only do it the way moondog sold me my acoustic guitar - on a try before you buy basis.
But here nobody has anything normal from a shop. Everyone buys blind. How do you do that if you don't have so much money you don't care if you get it wrong? (See my other earlier comment about $120000 speakers - true story)
StanleyB
15-06-2013, 07:35
Speaking as a designer and retailer with limited staffing options it is not so easy as before to deal with queries. Some people can email me with a list of questions that look more like a three hours exam paper. And at the end of it the time taken to answer all the questions come to nothing. In many cases the person making the inquiry has sent the same questions to maybe half a dozen other companies as well. You only need a couple of those queries a day to kill off any chances of doing anything else except answering questions.
I tend to read through the email and answer the most relevant parts as I see it. So questions that asks me like how my product compares sonically to that of A, B, and C are ignored. I don't slag off the audio performance of the products from other companies in order to make a sale. So wasting time on answering such questions is outside my remit.
As for phone calls: I myself list only my mobile phone number so that even if I am in the garden or the loft I can answer the call. The landline is restricted to the bank, FEDEX, etc. who need a landline number for their records.
That's strange behaviour for a salesman, Martin... :mental:
Perhaps the phone-call was utterly important ? :scratch:
It didn't sound important, and as an ex-telesalesman myself (mobile phones) it didn't sound to me like he was closing a deal. If he had just held the call for a second and said 'give me five minutes to sort this mate and I'll be with you' that would have been fine and I would have waited. Really not hard.
Good to see you back here again BTW :)
losenotaminute
15-06-2013, 09:07
It didn't sound important, and as an ex-telesalesman myself (mobile phones) it didn't sound to me like he was closing a deal. If he had just held the call for a second and said 'give me five minutes to sort this mate and I'll be with you' that would have been fine and I would have waited. Really not hard.
Good to see you back here again BTW :)
Completely agree. All the salesperson needs to do is make eye contact and acknowledge that you exist, then I am happy to wait. Being ignored is insulting and generally leads to me walking straight out of the shop and never going back. Life is too short to educate these muppets.
Lawrence
It didn't sound important, and as an ex-telesalesman myself (mobile phones) it didn't sound to me like he was closing a deal. If he had just held the call for a second and said 'give me five minutes to sort this mate and I'll be with you' that would have been fine and I would have waited. Really not hard.
Good to see you back here again BTW :)
I see. :( A bad salesman...
Good to see you too ! :)
Bluedroog
15-06-2013, 09:57
Plus one for Audio Flair, Adrian is very good to deal with.
I find in many stores you either don't get decent attention or you get met with a highly strung salesman type who could easily be selling a mobile phone contract in a bad suit and overbearing sickly scent.
hmm.. when the vendor / designer / builder of the one-man show feels his word is the only one valid AND that all other opinions / sales methods / whatever is wrong AND you get on the wrong side of these views OR you just have a system fault somewhere OR he thinks you're just another idiot unknowledgable client... THEN you're in deep sh--t and very lonely when dealing with this kind of company model.
I had a completely different company in mind when I read the above. They have three letters in their monika too..... :lol:
Practically everyone who bought audio on the East Coast prides themselves on being thrown out of Andy Singer's store for a variety of 'transgressions', including saying 'how much is it?'. They have stores that forget to take your booking and refuse to serve you even though you flew across the country to see them, they have no other bookings that day and the system is already running. They have stores that answer calls with "$50,000! I don't get out of bed for $50,000. That only buys you 'mid-fi'!"
Does anyone know who Alan is referring to here - is it someone in the US or the UK (what he's written, for me, is unclear)?
Marco.
Trouble i found with the hi fi shops of old was they thought they knew what was best for you.
Most shops were to far up there own arse.
Quite funny that Richer sounds will probably be the last shop standing.
icehockeyboy
15-06-2013, 12:18
Does anyone know who Alan is referring to here - is it someone in the US or the UK (what he's written, for me, is unclear)?
Marco.
I think the fact that the post mentions East Coast, and I'm sure they don't mean Lincolnshire, and states $ and not £ might be a clue as to whether its UK or USA......
Yes, I know, but it was the way he added "here" at the end of this sentence:
"We still fare better than the US here"
Putting "here" at the end, brings the subject back to the UK, which although he then stated discussing prices of kit in Dollars, still confused matters. I'd have left out the "here" and simply wrote: 'We still fare better than the US', or 'We still fare better here than in the US'. That way, the message would've been clearer.
Anyway, who the hell is Andy Singer? :confused:
Marco.
A legend in his lunchbox? :lol:
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 12:35
Hi Alan,
Indeed, but the scenario you've exaggerated for effect isn't representative of the situation at most decent hi-fi dealers, and I have a problem with citing extremes as the norm ;)
The reality is that most good dealers inhabit unpretentious surroundings, but which are usually perfectly clean and fit for purpose, and they are dressed smartly enough for the job in hand. All the pretentious frippery you mention comes at a price (and a very large one if your shop happens to be in or around London), in terms of overhead costs, which eats into the 'bang', when you're spending your buck.
Now that might be fine, if you have more money than sense, but most of us when buying hi-fi equipment want the bulk of our hard-earned investment to be realised in out-and-out sonic performance, not from being served by a snooty 'hooray' in an a Saville Row suit looking down their noses at you if you're not spending the cost of a small house.
No offence, but the sort of 'aspirational', ostentatious, retail environment you're describing and suggesting as 'the high-end norm' is precisely what would make the young blood run a mile, which we need to attract now, in order to sustain interest in our hobby!!
Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, long live the 'little guys' in their dingy little shops and wee-stained joggers, who invest in their businesses what matters most: a genuine passion for what they're doing and a commitment to offer their customers the best possible service - and yes, I know of quite a few people (some on this forum) who fit that category, although sometimes they change their trousers.....
Marco.
It's disingenuous to take a statement out of context. The situation I described (specific and relevant to Central London) is not representative of most decent hi-fi stores. It is representative of Central London - the redesign of KJ West One has increased walk-in traffic and turnover significantly, compared to the dingy 'is it closed?' store of three years ago. However, as someone who has been chair of an industry body that has a great many hi-fi stores as its members (and not just high-end stores in London), I think those that could be considered 'decent' is far lower than you suggest.
You raise two key aspects, but IMO get them completely arse-about-face.
1. We need to attract 'young blood'. I agree. A peculiar function of any demographic is they tend to do business with salespeople who are broadly speaking in the same demographic. They also like salespeople who can maintain eye contact. If they don't, they go elsewhere. In our business, that means they may well vanish off the map. I'm not wholly convinced by the 'they only buy online' arguments, because when it comes to carefully nuanced purchases, they - like their forefathers - want 'hands on'. It's why people don't tend to buy bedroom furniture or kitchen appliances online.
However, that young blood clientele reacts to a very different retail experience than we did. It doesn't need to be ostentatious, but it needs to be more like the Apple Store and less like a bait shop. Because when they do buy in store, they buy in stores that look like that.
2. That those with dingy stores invest in the more important parts of the business. I would love to see the evidence you have for this, because my findings suggest the complete opposite to be the case. The drab, dated store is run by someone not willing to invest in any aspects of the business, and is only keen to take the money. These are the people who are offered training in a variety of subjects including business development, technology updates, etc, etc. and refuse every single thing. They have staff members who make fundamental mistakes as a result. They are the ones that tell you the manufacturer is dragging his heels in delivering your new product, when in fact they haven't paid their bills from last year. Or they haven't put in the order because they are waiting for three more customers to get a better discount. They are the ones that will try to sell you their demonstrator as new, rather than invest in new stock.
You are absolutely right that a marbled palace of audio is not a necessary requirement in most store locations. But I've been to stores in the last two years that still have the same decor they had in the late 1980s. Even if that is kept clean and tidy, from a retail perspective, that is indefensible.
He sounds like the Basil Fawlty of U.S high end retail.
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 12:54
Yes, I know, but it was the way he added "here" at the end of this sentence:
Putting "here" at the end, brings the subject back to the UK, which although he then stated discussing prices of kit in Dollars, still confused matters. I'd have left out the "here" and simply wrote: 'We still fare better than the US', or 'We still fare better here than in the US'. That way, the message would've been clearer.
Anyway, who the hell is Andy Singer? :confused:
Marco.
UK hi-fi enthusiasts have more and generally better dealers than our American counterparts.
Is that better?
Andy Singer is the owner of 'Sound by Singer', which used to be one of the best-known hi-fi stores on the planet. It closed a few years ago, because of untenable rent increases. He "doesn't suffer fools gladly" and has an over-keen sense of who is and isn't a fool. Despite this, saying you've not heard of Andy Singer or Sound by Singer is the audio equivalent of saying "Harrods? What's Harrods?"
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 13:20
He sounds like the Basil Fawlty of U.S high end retail.
That's about right. The surprising thing is - until about five years ago - he was one of the biggest retailers in the US, despite all the abuse people used to get from him, despite all the trying to sell someone with $500 up to $50,000 and then shouting at them for being cheapskates, despite throwing people out of the store for being ten minutes too early or five minutes too late for a demonstration.
He was one of the biggest because all of this was still made him a lot better than many of the rivals!
It's only now that there have been some seriously good dealers in New York - like Wes Bender Studio - that it's made the likes of Lyric and SbS seem to raise their respective games. There are some new and good retailers in the UK that I hope will do the same (Sonata springs to mind).
UK hi-fi enthusiasts have more and generally better dealers than our American counterparts.
Is that better?
Yes! :)
Andy Singer is the owner of 'Sound by Singer', which used to be one of the best-known hi-fi stores on the planet. It closed a few years ago, because of untenable rent increases. He "doesn't suffer fools gladly" and has an over-keen sense of who is and isn't a fool. Despite this, saying you've not heard of Andy Singer or Sound by Singer is the audio equivalent of saying "Harrods? What's Harrods?"
Lol... Well, I suspect that I'm not alone here in not having heard of the bloke!
Why, if I'm in not interested in the bullshit 'aspirational' side of 'high-end audio', rarely read the audio press, almost never go to shows (apart from 'proper', enthusiast-led shows, such as Scalford), and as someone who lives in a small town in North Wales, previously in Glasgow for 25 years, and who rarely ventures far from 'home ground', except to go on holiday abroad in Europe, should I know who some arrogant tosser (judging by his disgraceful attitude towards customers) is on the other side of the world in a country I've never been to?
Comparing his establishment to somewhere like Harrods is ridiculous.
He may be 'famous' in your world, Alan, but he certainly isn't in mine. Anyway, he sounds like a total wanker - the exact type of idiot I have zero time for - so I don't think that I'm missing out on anything special... ;)
I'll get to your other post later.
Marco.
never heard of him.
Glad I'm not alone, lol...
Is there anyone here who actually knew who Alan was referring to initially? Be honest!
Marco.
My experience of retail Stateside is that the service is always excellent, attentive without being pushy and incredibly polite and respectful, especially in the Mid-West - strange that hi-fi retail should be an exception to that.
Indeed... I don't know how he's gotten away with his impudence. If he'd spoken to me the way that Alan has outlined, he'd have ended up with a sore face!!!
Why would anyone in their right mind put up with that behaviour, least of all a potential customer?? The very fact that the asshole thinks he's qualified to judge who is a 'fool', and who isn't, says it all. My advice would be for him to look in the mirror and see the perfect vision of one staring right back at him.
Marco.
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 14:25
Yes! :)
Lol... Well, I suspect that I'm not alone here in not having heard of the bloke!
Why, if I'm in not interested in the bullshit 'aspirational' side of 'high-end audio', rarely read the audio press, almost never go to shows (apart from 'proper', enthusiast-led shows, such as Scalford), and as someone who lives in a small town in North Wales, previously in Glasgow for 25 years, and who rarely ventures far from 'home ground', except to go on holiday abroad in Europe, should I know who some arrogant tosser (judging by his disgraceful attitude towards customers) is on the other side of the world in a country I've never been to?
Comparing his establishment to somewhere like Harrods is ridiculous.
He may be 'famous' in your world, Alan, but he certainly isn't in mine. Anyway, he sounds like a total wanker - the exact type of idiot I have zero time for - so I don't think that I'm missing out on anything special... ;)
I'll get to your other post later.
Marco.
And yet, you have silver-plated cables, vdH and VPI products in your list of things and stuff. None of these things would have survived their early days were it not for SbS pushing them (some would say 'shoving them') at New York clients and the word spreading internationally.
For all the aspirational stuff he pushed, his store has been at one time or another one of the biggest sellers of Arcam, Rega, Tom Evans, Creek, Cambridge Audio, Quad, Harbeth and Kudos. There have been times where some of these companies have needed that arrogant and annoying New York retailer, because despite all the many faults, he paid his bills and sold things.
And no. I'm not comparing his establishment to Harrods. I'm saying that within the hi-fi market, Sound by Singer's reputation (along with places like Sound and Colours in Paris, Elegant Music Garden in Guangzhou, and Extreme Audio in Istanbul) extends beyond the country boundaries, as Harrods and Macy's and Bloomingdales do. There are very, very few retailers that can say that, no matter how parochial your world view.
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 14:39
My experience of retail Stateside is that the service is always excellent, attentive without being pushy and incredibly polite and respectful, especially in the Mid-West - strange that hi-fi retail should be an exception to that.
Unfortunately, it has long been an exception, although there are signs of positive change.
There seem to be a lot of crossed wires here. I'm not painting Andy Singer as some kind of loveable rogue or positive figure in the industry. It's that someone who in most people's books would be a candidate for throwing down a flight of stairs was viewed as one of the more balanced retailers in the US industry, shows just how poor US audio retail was in many cases.
There have always been exceptions - the late Brooks Berdan in Monrovia CA for example left a fine legacy of excellent customer service and treated the guy with the Pro-Ject Debut with the same courtesy as did the SME Model 30 owners. But, until recently, that level of customer service was the exception rather than the rule. Which is insane in a country that prides itself on exemplary customer service.
StanleyB
15-06-2013, 14:39
And yet, you have silver-plated cables, vdH and VPI products in your list of things and stuff. None of these things would have survived their early days were it not for SbS pushing them (some would say 'shoving them') at New York clients and the word spreading internationally.
I beg to disagree with that notion. I can't speak for VPI since I don't know anyone who owns one, let alone speak highly or lowly of them. But silver plated cables and Van Der Hull stuff didn't become known or popular because of clients in NY. Just as B&O and Bose did not take hold in mainstream use in the UK, no matter how much our friends across the various ponds raved on about them.
MikeMusic
15-06-2013, 14:42
The key is to find the place that treats you like a client not a customer or an interruption to their day, or something nasty stuck on their shoe
Just about everyone says how good they are. Not that many deliver. About 25% at a guess.
There is another key of course. How to pick the supplier who does what they say and more from the 'poke away with a stick' type
I often used to pick up work from people who hated their printer and would try almost anyone, great feeling.
Unfortunately with so many bad companies about everyone gets tarred with the same brush.
I was delighted to pick up a new client (!) last week.
£1100 of work, exactly the sort of work we do, about 3-4 hours printing, books bound in parallel so almost at the same time.
He came to us in some desperation as the printer he tried just up the road from us had *said* he would turn the work around in 7 days.
At the end of 7 days our client rang him
"Sorry I've had machine problems"
So he hadn't even bothered to let him know or was lying
Good news for us.
I always try to find the very best suppliers I possibly can. Three strikes and you're out - unless they are ven better after a cock up than before
Like a marriage you have to work at developing a good relationship with dealers. If you treat them as sounding boards don't be surprised if they give you short shrift - so would I.
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 15:01
I beg to disagree with that notion. I can't speak for VPI since I don't know anyone who owns one, let alone speak highly or lowly of them. But silver plated cables and Van Der Hull stuff didn't become known or popular because of clients in NY. Just as B&O and Bose did not take hold in mainstream use in the UK, no matter how much our friends across the various ponds raved on about them.
In the 1980s, vdH 'broke' internationally through Stereophile. It broke because Andy Singer got behind the brand and many of Stereophile's writers at the time were clients of Sound by Singer. AFAIK, the importance of silver-plated cables came through a different route - Steve Guttenberg - who stopped working for SbS in the mid-1980s and started writing about audio.
And yet, you have silver-plated cables, vdH and VPI products in your list of things and stuff. None of these things would have survived their early days were it not for SbS pushing them (some would say 'shoving them') at New York clients and the word spreading internationally.
First of all, who are SbS? You keep bandying about these things, as if we're all in the position of knowledge about such things as is an editor of a hi-fi magazine. Please refrain from doing so unless it is 100% obvious what an abbreviation stands for in the 'normal' world, and if it isn't, explain in brackets what it is you're referring to. Cheers!
Anyway, point taken, but if I didn't have those products, I'd have bought something else that did the same job. Just because I own them doesn't mean I should be aware of the history of their existence. I couldn't give a toss about any of that.
For all the aspirational stuff he pushed, his store has been at one time or another one of the biggest sellers of Arcam, Rega, Tom Evans, Creek, Cambridge Audio, Quad, Harbeth and Kudos. There have been times where some of these companies have needed that arrogant and annoying New York retailer, because despite all the many faults, he paid his bills and sold things.
Good for him. As far as I'm concerned, that means nothing. What's more important, if he's as bad as you say he is, is that he sounds like a really nasty piece of work. Quite simply, I have zero time for people like that, no matter what their achievements. I relate to nice people and being treated with dignity and respect, and indeed demand so, especially if I'm handing my money over to someone!!
And no. I'm not comparing his establishment to Harrods. I'm saying that within the hi-fi market, Sound by Singer's reputation (along with places like Sound and Colours in Paris, Elegant Music Garden in Guangzhou, and Extreme Audio in Istanbul) extends beyond the country boundaries, as Harrods and Macy's and Bloomingdales do. There are very, very few retailers that can say that, no matter how parochial your world view.
I've never heard of any of those other dealers you've mentioned either, and why should I? You know what you need to know, and I don't need to know that stuff. It is of no relevance to me. Furthermore, I can assure you that somewhere like Harrods is a damn sight more well-known around the world, by everyone, even those outside of the world of hi-fi, than a bunch of high-end audio dealers, no matter how 'famous' they are in their own circles.
Marco.
First of all, who are SbS?...
Sound by Singer!
They would be well known to anyone who read Stereophile back in its A5 format days where they would have multi-page adverts in every issue
StanleyB
15-06-2013, 15:20
Sound by Singer!
They would be well known to anyone who read Stereophile back in its A5 format days where they would have multi-page adverts in every issue
In those days I preferred to buy a Paul Raymond magazine with its numerous Mary Millington adverts for her products.
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 15:21
First of all, who are SbS? You keep bandying about these things, as if we're all in the position of knowledge about such things as is an editor of a hi-fi magazine. Please refrain from doing so unless it is 100% obvious what an abbreviation stands for in the 'normal' world.
I mentioned Sound by Singer, then shortened it to SbS. I thought that would be clear enough.
Anyway, point taken, but if I didn't have those products, I'd have bought something else that did the same job. Just because I own them doesn't mean I should be aware of the history of their existence. I couldn't give a toss about any of that.
Yes, but the chances are you selected these products because you preferred them to other products that were available. My point is no matter how disinterested you are in the history, your selected option wouldn't have existed.
Good for him. As far as I'm concerned, that means nothing. What's more important, if he's as bad as you say he is, is that he sounds like a really nasty piece of work. Quite simply, I have zero time for people like that, no matter what their achievements. I relate to nice people and being treated with dignity and respect.
I agree. My point about all of this was that this person was one of the least-worst of the Eastern Seaboard US dealers, in that (AFAIK) he never actually hospitalised someone, never pulled a gun on a customer over a disagreement about speaker placement, never ran off with clients money and never ran a fake charity and ended up doing six years in jail. All of the other things have been reliably attributed to various US audio dealers. So any 'grass is greener' criticisms of the UK retailers - desperately flawed as many are - should be tempered by the fact that the majority of them are not, in fact, criminals. You really can't say the same thing internationally.
Never heard of any of those other dealers you've mentioned either, and why should I have? You know what you need to know, and I don't need to know that stuff. It is of no relevance to me. Furthermore, I can assure you that somewhere like Harrods is a damn sight more well-known around the world, by everyone, even those outside of the world of hi-fi, than a bunch of high-end audio dealers, no matter how 'famous' they are in their own circles.
Marco.
Of course Harrods is better known around the world. This is a tiny industry, with a very small group of people who care about it and even fewer who look beyond their own little part of that industry. Those who do try to take in the bigger picture will flag up these names time and again as the outlets that transcend their country boundaries, regardless of where they stem from. That you aren't interested in looking beyond your own nose is not my fault.
Alan, the tone of your posts is becoming more and more aggressive and confrontational, especially your last sentence. On AoS, we address each other nicely, as friends, and use non-provocative language at all times. This is not pfm or Wigwam. Kindly observe this rule in future when you're addressing me in your replies. Cheers!
I have to go out now, but will comment on the rest of what you've written later.
Marco.
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 16:00
Alan, the tone of your posts is becoming more and more confrontational, especially your last sentence. On AoS, we address each other nicely, as friends, and use non-provocative language at all times. This is not pfm or Wigwam. Kindly observe this rule in future when you're adressing me in your replies. Cheers!
I have to go out now, but will comment on the rest of what you've written later.
Marco.
I apologise, but I am finding your own seemingly deliberate obfuscating position rather frustrating too.
Let me simplify what I was saying:
1. There are good, bad and indifferent audio retailers all over the world
2. While it's easy to see the local dealers as being exceptionally bad, they are about par for the course. There is a lot worse out there!
3. Every bad dealer poisons the well for 10 good dealers
4. Dealers should learn from the successes and failures of others, and not just others in the hi-fi business
5. It's a broad enough church for there to be a range of different retailers, from the fusty old bait shop to the shiny new hyper bling marbled palace and all points in between. Each has its own clientele, with very different demands. These demands should be treated with respect, even if you don't personally agree with them. They are all ultimately into the same hobby, after all
6. You won't reach a younger clientele if your demo room carpet is older than the client
I think Alan that most good UK dealerships, and that includes the cottage industry one man bands, are well aware of point 4 you made above. Your point 5 is also valid. I think that there are two perfectly equally valid points about younger clientèle. Firstly, its pandering to the whims of the younger generation by adopting and marketing what's popular to sustain their musical interests and for their social lifestyles. That in itself has less to do with hifi marketing than the second point which is helping to gently educate and persuade the younger generation into high fidelity as part of lifestyle (younger) and a hobby (as your disposable income increases so lets say for arguments sake from your 30's onwards). That is often achieved through well thought out advertising campaigns, through discussion, demonstrations, andvia magazines such as yours, giveing instructibve well written reviews. Lastly, it is of course also the domain of hifi forums.
There's a clear distinction here. The former are more likely to shop at your local Curries store for what they want or buy on-line. The latter see nothing wrong imho with dated carpets as its the hifi they're interested in. I've yet to enter any dealership, no matter how small, that doesn't take at least a cursory interest in the appearance of their interiors as that's all part of the "sell". The other point is not to write off the cottage industries which are doing a great service for many enthusiasts and many operate from small premises or even from their homes.
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 16:42
I think Alan that most good UK dealerships, and that includes the cottage industry one man bands, are well aware of point 4 you made above. Your point 5 is also valid. I think that there are two perfectly equally valid points about younger clientèle. Firstly, its pandering to the whims of the younger generation by adopting and marketing what's popular to sustain their musical interests and for their social lifestyles. That in itself has less to do with hifi marketing than the second point which is helping to gently educate and persuade the younger generation into high fidelity as part of lifestyle (younger) and a hobby (as your disposable income increases so lets say for arguments sake from your 30's onwards). That is often achieved through well thought out advertising campaigns, through discussion, demonstrations, andvia magazines such as yours, giveing instructibve well written reviews. Lastly, it is of course also the domain of hifi forums.
There's a clear distinction here. The former are more likely to shop at your local Curries store for what they want or buy on-line. The latter see nothing wrong imho with dated carpets as its the hifi they're interested in. I've yet to enter any dealership, no matter how small, that doesn't take at least a cursory interest in the appearance of their interiors as that's all part of the "sell". The other point is not to write off the cottage industries which are doing a great service for many enthusiasts and many operate from small premises or even from their homes.
I don't write off the smaller guys and the cottage industry at all. There's a lot of energy and good sense there. My points are largely directed at the more entrenched and intractable dealers who bought the freehold for their businesses in the 1980s... and have gone into a holding pattern ever since. If you total up the complaints about dealers, these guys are the ones who keep getting mentioned; not for grand larceny, but for petty little things that reflect badly on the rest of the industry. They are resistant to change, immune to criticism, slow to pay their bills, and quick to blame. They often have a small circle of clients from when they were more active, who form the bulk of their sales. The rest is all sales avoidance.
Only a couple of dozen still survive, but because their overheads are so low, they hang on and on.
I agree. My point about all of this was that this person was one of the least-worst of the Eastern Seaboard US dealers, in that (AFAIK) he never actually hospitalised someone, never pulled a gun on a customer over a disagreement about speaker placement, never ran off with clients money and never ran a fake charity and ended up doing six years in jail. All of the other things have been reliably attributed to various US audio dealers. So any 'grass is greener' criticisms of the UK retailers - desperately flawed as many are - should be tempered by the fact that the majority of them are not, in fact, criminals. You really can't say the same thing internationally.
Ever so slightly OT, but the fall of Mark Shifter was very sad. Clearly, setting up a fake charity and conning people qualifies the man as a prize turd.
But before his fall from grace, this man actually did something - he gave us some real innovation and serious value add through his work at Audio Alchemy and Perpetual Technologies - I love my Modwright tweaked PT Upsampler and DAC and have never seen the need to "upgrade it". And until he went off the rails, he also had a good rep for the price/quality ratio of his products, good customer service and innovate with web-direct "try before you buy" approaches.
Sound by Singer!
They would be well known to anyone who read Stereophile back in its A5 format days where they would have multi-page adverts in every issue
That'll be why then I'd never heard of them, as I never read Stereophile! :lol:
I've never really liked its content. I prefer the British hi-fi mags, particularly those who acknowledge that the best of vintage hi-fi still has much to offer.
Marco.
I apologise, but I am finding your own seemingly deliberate obfuscating position rather frustrating too.
Let me simplify what I was saying:
1. There are good, bad and indifferent audio retailers all over the world
2. While it's easy to see the local dealers as being exceptionally bad, they are about par for the course. There is a lot worse out there!
3. Every bad dealer poisons the well for 10 good dealers
4. Dealers should learn from the successes and failures of others, and not just others in the hi-fi business
5. It's a broad enough church for there to be a range of different retailers, from the fusty old bait shop to the shiny new hyper bling marbled palace and all points in between. Each has its own clientele, with very different demands. These demands should be treated with respect, even if you don't personally agree with them. They are all ultimately into the same hobby, after all
6. You won't reach a younger clientele if your demo room carpet is older than the client
That's fine, Alan. I accept your apology. However, I can assure you that I'm not deliberately obfuscating anything; merely being honest. The problem is that, in terms of our interests in audio, you and I live in different worlds.
I'm someone who largely buys the best of vintage audio equipment and mods it to a standard which allows it to outperform much of what is made today, whereas you must be seen to support 'the latest and greatest'. I value 'sound-per-pound value' and abhor badge snobbery and any aspect of elitism, together with the notion that hi-fi should be 'aspirational', and therefore largely shun the high-end and all that is associated with it, including the 'who's who' of world audio.
In your position, you need to have your 'finger on the pulse', as it were, of what's happening now, in high-end audio, and so require to be 'in the thick of the action'. I, however, as merely an enthusiast, have no need, or even desire, to be part of that world. The reality is, I have little in common with it, and as such little interest in it, but when I can, I do like to support the dealers I consider as 'the good guys', and I will list those later.
There are more than you think, especially in the north of the country, which of course might be missed by anyone who thinks that the London scene (and that of the south) is the be-all-and-end-all.... ;)
I'll get to your points about dealers, and their shortcomings later. However, if I may ask you a favour?
On AoS, you may have noticed that every member has a real first name (shown somewhere on all their posts). This is because it makes for creating a sense of community, and therefore friendliness from each other, devoid of the rather 'cold and detached' way people interact with each other elsewhere on forums, where first names are not required. Because of that, I address you as Alan, therefore I would be obliged if sometimes (it doesn't have to be always) you addressed me as Marco.
I realise that this isn't the norm on the Web, but I like to get the sense that I'm engaging with a real person, rather than some sort of corporate robot, who's been sent on a mission, to 'champion' the agenda of his employers. It would be nice to feel that I'm talking to Alan Sircom, audio enthusiast, rather than Alan Sircom, editor of Hi-Fi+. I trust that you won't take offence at this and will see where I'm coming from.
If you could make that adjustment to your posting style, when you visit us, I'd be very much obliged :)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
15-06-2013, 19:48
That's fine, Alan. I accept your apology. However, I can assure you that I'm not deliberately obfuscating anything; merely being honest.
The problem is that, in terms of our interests in audio, you and I live in different worlds. I'm someone who largely buys the best of vintage audio equipment and mods it to a standard which allows it to outperform much of what is made today. I value 'sound-per-pound value' and abhor badge snobbery and any aspect of elitism, together with the notion that hi-fi should be 'aspirational', and therefore largely shun the high-end and all that is associated with it, including the 'who's who' of world audio.
In your position, you need to have your 'finger on the pulse', as it were, of what's happening now, in high-end audio, and so require to be 'in the thick of the action'. I, however, as merely an enthusiast, have no need, or even desire, to be part of that world. The reality is, I have little interest in it.
I'll get to your points about dealers, and their shortcomings, later. However, if I may ask you a favour?
On AoS, you may have noticed that every member has a real first name (shown somewhere on all their posts). This is because it makes for creating a sense of community, and therefore friendliness from each other, devoid of the rather 'cold and detached' way people interact with each other elsewhere on forums, where first names are not required. Because of that, I address you as Alan, therefore I would be obliged if you sometimes (it doesn't have to be always) addressed me as Marco.
I realise that this isn't the norm on the Web, but I like to get the sense that I'm engaging with a real person, rather than some sort of corporate entity, who's been sent on a mission, to 'champion' the agenda of his employers. It would be nice to feel that I'm talking to Alan Sircom, audio enthusiast, rather than Alan Sircom, editor of Hi-Fi+. I trust that you won't take offence at this and will see where I'm coming from.
If you could make that adjustment in your posting style, when you visit us, I'd be very much obliged :)
Marco.
Marco,
No problems, and I quite understand your dismissal of elitism in audio. However, I think in some respects you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I have come to know many people who buy high-end systems and the vast majority of those I've met consider the components they use on the basis of a stringent set of listening tests too. Those who buy high-end also value 'sound per pound'... they are just willing to deploy a lot more pounds on that quest.
Do you really think Robin (doodoos) system (for example) is selected on some kind of inferior set of criteria to yours, because it's made up of expensive products like darTZeel and Magico? If, in selecting this system, he'd settled on Krell and Wilson, or Naim and Neat, or Ayre and Vivid, or Devialet and Focal, or Jeff Rowland and Avalon, would his listening tests be any more or less structured and discerning? The system might not be one you or I would settle on ultimately (although I think Robin's system as it stands should be a remarkable performer), but it might be the one he likes beyond all others. Why would that set of listening tests be any more or less acute than someone doing exactly the same thing at 1/10th the price?
The interesting part of all this is the closer you get to the majority of people who buy high-end, you discover they aren't simply starry-eyed but wealthy mooks being taken for a ride by a bunch of con men, but people with the same goals and aspirations as everyone who takes their time to select good audio. Yes, there are always going to be some people who buy to express a desire for elitism and exclusivity, just as there are people who buy Ferraris to show off that they are wealthy enough to buy a Ferrari. But 'some' is not 'all', and I genuinely feel it's inverted snobbery to dismiss all those who spend a lot of time investigating what they want from audio, a lot of money in attaining that, and then a lot more time enjoying the fruits of that labour.
That this quest is not your quest is clear. But just as you have little interest in this world, so others have little interest in vintage audio and modification. You should respect them as fellow travellers.
Spectral Morn
15-06-2013, 19:54
Marco wrote.......
'Is there anyone here who actually knew who Alan was referring to initially? Be honest!
Marco.'
Yes but I read American mags - Steroephile and The Absolute Sound (their 40th Anniversary (current) issue is one of the finest mags I have read in many years by the way imho) and therefore had seen the Sound By Singer ads + I had read about him online.
Regards Neil
Hi Alan,
Good post. I shall get to it (along with the other one) after I've finished polishing off a rather fine bottle of claret with my good lady wife! :)
Btw, thanks for embracing the community aspect and 'personal touch' of AoS. We're very different, in that respect, compared with other forums and like at all times to feel that we're communicating with another human being, rather than a 'faceless web entity'.
Until later! :cool:
Marco.
Marco wrote.......
'Is there anyone here who actually knew who Alan was referring to initially? Be honest!
Marco.'
Yes but I read American mags - Steroephile and The Absolute Sound (their 40th Anniversary (current) issue is one of the finest mags I have read in many years by the way imho) and therefore had seen the Sound By Singer ads + I had read about him online.
Regards Neil
Lol... S'ok, dude. I knew you would! ;) Whereas, I have no interest in such things. It's perhaps unrealistic of anyone to expect that one should, just because one owns a decent hi-fi system.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
15-06-2013, 20:07
There have always been exceptions - the late Brooks Berdan in Monrovia CA for example left a fine legacy of excellent customer service and treated the guy with the Pro-Ject Debut with the same courtesy as did the SME Model 30 owners. But, until recently, that level of customer service was the exception rather than the rule. Which is insane in a country that prides itself on exemplary customer service.
Sadly missed as his modifications made the Oracle Delphi an incredible turntable, modifications that Oracle then adopted in the Mk4 and treating everyone as an equal is the way it should be always in any retailing in my view.
Regards Neil
Btw, before I get to the other stuff, just to knock this one on the head:
Do you really think Robin (doodoos) system (for example) is selected on some kind of inferior set of criteria to yours, because it's made up of expensive products like darTZeel and Magico? If, in selecting this system, he'd settled on Krell and Wilson, or Naim and Neat, or Ayre and Vivid, or Devialet and Focal, or Jeff Rowland and Avalon, would his listening tests be any more or less structured and discerning?
No, not in the slightest. Whatever Robin's into, good luck to him - at least he's 'in the game' for the right reasons! Unlike these vulgar and pretentious wankers, you refer to (highlighted in bold):
Yes, there are always going to be some people who buy to express a desire for elitism and exclusivity, just as there are people who buy Ferraris to show off that they are wealthy enough to buy a Ferrari.
I have no problem with anyone spending whatever amount they want on anything (hi-fi, cars or whatever), as long as it's for a genuine LOVE of owning it, rather than merely the coveting of a status symbol. *That* is the concept I abhor, together with the idiots who possess such a mentality.
I trust that makes my position on this matter clear? :)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
16-06-2013, 09:40
I have no problem with anyone spending whatever amount they want on anything (hi-fi, cars or whatever), as long as it's for a genuine LOVE of owning it, rather than merely the coveting of a status symbol. *That* is the concept I abhor, together with the idiots who possess such a mentality.
I trust that makes my position on this matter clear? :)
Marco.
Yes, Marco, that makes your position perfectly clear.
The thing is, how many people who buy high-end audio as a status symbol in the UK? I've been dealing with audio and high-end audio for the better part of a quarter of a century, and have met lots of people who own high-end equipment. I'd say I've met less than half a dozen who were in it for the status rather than the love of it.
The numbers in the US and European audiophile markets do not seem to be that different, although each country a differing average amount of disposable income to spend on audio. The Russian and some Asian markets appear to be more status obsessed than we are, but I don't know how much of that is the view from the sidelines.
I guess the big question is does a brand that appears to be clearly status-led (like Burmester) sell on status alone? It certainly shouldn't have to - several of the company's CD players, its power conditioner and its phono stage are among the world's best in performance terms, and I suspect more products from its chrome catalogue would also qualify. I don't know many Burmester owners in the UK (although they do exist), but the one I do know of bought his 089 CD player because he loved the sound and compared it to a number of highly respected rivals, not because it was nice and shiny.
Jeez, as blatant as that? Well, in that case, I'd have shouted out in a very loud voice: "Get yer f*cking arse out here pronto, before I call your head office and complain and have you sacked!!"
Then watch the twat move... ;)
Honestly, I'm not kidding, anyone who knows me will know that I have a zero tolerance policy towards shoddy service (and especially sheer ignorance).
Marco.
I remember my great uncle, who has now sadly died telling about a scenario where he was getting virtually no response from a high street computer company in relation to a fault he had been experiencing since he purchased it, so took the machine into the middle of the shop (minus the peripherals) and started shouting about the poor service he had experienced, funnily afterwards, the Manager came running out and became extremely helpful, funny that!
I tend to like dealing with the cottage industry in the UK and have made a few friends this way that have influenced my system, but also know I have influenced theirs as well.
I actually dislike the term high end it creates elitism and snobbery to a degree. I always been about taking a alternative approach to my system set up. But also think we all have to find our own path and as long as your happy with your sound then that is cool
julesd68
16-06-2013, 14:25
I'm someone who largely buys the best of vintage audio equipment and mods it to a standard which allows it to outperform much of what is made today, whereas you must be seen to support 'the latest and greatest'. I value 'sound-per-pound value' and abhor badge snobbery and any aspect of elitism, together with the notion that hi-fi should be 'aspirational', and therefore largely shun the high-end and all that is associated with it, including the 'who's who' of world audio.
Hi Marco,
I'm interested in the psychology of this having worked in advertising in a previous incarnation. Looking through your kit list I can only see two items that I would recognise as being distinctly 'vintage' - your Tannoy and Celestion speakers. All the rest of the equipment is more modern gear that you have chosen for 'bang per buck' or 'sound for pound'. I think the Croft and Tube Distinctions gear epitomises the kind of gear that appeals to you - great sound and very understated in terms of styling and the way they are marketed. No bling factor.
So what if I was to offer you a new hypothetical 'wonder amp' at exactly the same price level, that wasn't understated in the least, with a 'look' designed by FA Porsche, but on audition, actually sounded to your ears better than those amps you own? And what if the manufacturer of the amps had a full-on marketing campaign in all the hi-fi press? Would you buy it? Would you consider buying it? Now I don't want to 'mind read' you, but I'm guessing you wouldn't as the aesthetics of the gear and the way it was marketed would turn you off completely. And what would be wrong with that? Absolutely nothing. We all surround ourselves with people and things that reflect a myriad of preferences consciously or subconsciously. And in hi-fi terms, that means it isn't all about the sound.
I, for one wouldn't...I like the older, more reserved look. something that is maybe not classed as in.....I like modern in its place, is, a mp3 player should look like it was designed by Porsche, but an amp should look like an amp.....old styling....that is what got me into audio 40 odd years ago...
sorry to butt in.
I remember my great uncle, who has now sadly died telling about a scenario where he was getting virtually no response from a high street computer company in relation to a fault he had been experiencing since he purchased it, so took the machine into the middle of the shop (minus the peripherals) and started shouting about the poor service he had experienced, funnily afterwards, the Manager came running out and became extremely helpful, funny that!
Paul,
Funny that, indeed. My wife is excellent at pulling that kind of stunt. I generally get too embarrassed.
She did it once about ten years ago to a particularly oily individual in a shop who had been trying bullshit her about why he had let her come in (when she had gone to the trouble of ringing ahead) to collect her beloved turntable only for it not to be there, and this after several months of delays on a routine servicing (also involving improbable excuses). Needless to say, the English browsers there scuttled off in a fog of embarrassment and the foreigners stayed for the spectacle, realising that the UK had not abolished all blood-sports. :stalks:
I also need gently to remind her that berating cold-callers leads to spending half an hour of life she'll never get back. More worthwhile are the battles she has with the Banks, Virgin (telecoms), the utilities etc over poor service or taking too much in direct debits etc. The difficulty is that there really is little point switching as they all seem equally determined to treat customers as moronic and bad at actually giving customers what they need.
Getting back to the topic, I guess that one of the reasons I'm so frustrated with recent hi-fi retail experience is that I had not generally experienced such indifference before and had hoped it had not infested my thirty year hobby, although quite common elsewhere.
I have, of course, experienced kindness, engagement, shared enthusiasm and knowledge from many in the sector over the years (and they are attributes found on this forum too). Despite the Smith and Jones sketch, this was generally true in the Eighties and Nineties when I was far from flush but people seemed keen to do their jobs.
It just seems now to be harder even to get to the position where I can get basic service. I note Alan's (and others') points about why this might be. But, ultimately, it is not my problem in the same way as I do not expect to use any problems I have as a reason for not dealing with my clients or prospective clients promptly and courteously.
The good news is that we have recommendations here for people and firms, presumably under the same pressures as the others, who have not forgotten that they need to convert enquiries into sales through good service and enthusiasm.
Peter
Alan Sircom
16-06-2013, 19:24
It just seems now to be harder even to get to the position where I can get basic service. I note Alan's (and others') points about why this might be. But, ultimately, it is not my problem in the same way as I do not expect to use any problems I have as a reason for not dealing with my clients or prospective clients promptly and courteously.
The good news is that we have recommendations here for people and firms, presumably under the same pressures as the others, who have not forgotten that they need to convert enquiries into sales through good service and enthusiasm.
Peter,
Don't get me wrong. To not call someone back, to not even explain and apologise why you were unable to call them back at the time is, to my mind, utterly inexcusable. There are reasons why it might happen, but there are no excuses if it does.
I kind of use it as a filter for my business, applicable everywhere. If someone can't be bothered to call me back, and especially if they say they are turning up at a specific time and then both fail to turn up or call to explain why they are delayed, my business goes elsewhere. Because if they are behaving that shoddily when they are tendering for my business, you can guess they will be just as slapdash when they actually get the business.
Fortunately, as you suggest, there are good people who still run their business professionally. Unfortunately, I often don't live by my own rules, as I am hopeless at getting back to people by email in short order. Too many email accounts and too much spam can often be the reason, but at least I am not in a storefront.
I also need gently to remind her that berating cold-callers leads to spending half an hour of life she'll never get back. More worthwhile are the battles she has with the Banks, Virgin (telecoms), the utilities etc over poor service or taking too much in direct debits etc. The difficulty is that there really is little point switching as they all seem equally determined to treat customers as moronic and bad at actually giving customers what they need.
Peter,
My wife also has this way of dealing with cold-callers and phone conversations in general really lol.
P.
Hi Alan (Sircom),
Well, after a very busy (and boozy!) Father's Day, I'm just about to hit the sack, but rest assured that I will tie up all 'loose ends' (posts of yours which require replying to) tomorrow ;)
Hi Marco,
I'm interested in the psychology of this having worked in advertising in a previous incarnation. Looking through your kit list I can only see two items that I would recognise as being distinctly 'vintage' - your Tannoy and Celestion speakers. All the rest of the equipment is more modern gear that you have chosen for 'bang per buck' or 'sound for pound'. I think the Croft and Tube Distinctions gear epitomises the kind of gear that appeals to you - great sound and very understated in terms of styling and the way they are marketed. No bling factor.
Lol... Have you seen my Copper amp, Julian? Some might call this 'blingy'....!
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8256/48h8.jpg
;)
However, yes, in general I dislike 'bling-fi', as much as I do 'badge-fi'...
Although my Lockwood Majors (containing Tannoy Monitor Gold 15" drivers) and Celestion Studio 66 Monitors, are from the late 60s/early 70s, respectively, and so are undoubtedly 'vintage', the Sony CDP and DAC I use are from the late 80s, and so for digital components, those are pretty old. Therefore, I'd suggest that these also qualify as being firmly in the vintage category.
The rest of the system could, superficially, be classed as relatively modern, but the key is to examine the 'DNA' of the components more closely. Let's start with my turntable... The Technics SL-1200/1210 was originally released in 1972, and the fundamental design still remains to this day, therefore I consider my T/T as simply a highly modified 1972 design. The Ortofon tonearm is brand new, but again, its roots lie in the revered Ortofon broadcast arms of the 1970s, including the SPU cartridge attached to it, which has even earlier origins in the broadcast and professional audio industry. My Royal GM is simply a 'tarted up' version of the original Ortofon SPU, released in 1959, but it incorporates the best of today's technology (such as the superb Replicant stylus).
Do you see where I'm coming from? Every item that enters my system is VERY carefully considered!
The Croft amplifier and Copper amp are again similar cases in point, as although they were built in 1998 and 2007, respectively, they're based on classic valve amplifier circuits from the 1950s. Furthermore, my Mana supports have their roots in the mid 90s, and are now discontinued, and so although modern, are not currently available items. Really, the only genuinely up-to-date items in my system, aside from the PH turntable PSU, Ortofon SUT and VPI record cleaner, are my cables (mains leads and interconnects), and particularly the plugs and connectors attached to them, which represent a considerable financial investment for what one could call 'mere accessories', but justified because I consider their sonic benefits as being fundamentally important to the performance of my system.
Therefore, you're slightly misconstruing the methodology behind my system building, which is simply this: to marry the BEST of old and new technology, in order to achieve the BEST of both worlds. *That* is my primary focus and motivation when choosing the components to build a hi-fi system.
For me, the biggest advances today in the world of hi-fi (aside from computer audio) have been in cable design, and all ancillaries attached with that (such as plugs and connectors), along with equipment support design, and crucially, electrical component technology (capacitors, resistors, etc). This is why that when the latter is combined with and integrated into some of the best engineered hi-fi components ever made, some of which I've mentioned earlier, the sonic results obtained can be gob-smackingly good, simply because the modern technology element addresses the fundamental weaknesses of the best vintage equipment, whilst optimising its inherent excellence in other areas, and why stunning results can be obtained by those who have the dedication and patience to go down that route.
Trust me, *only* if you've heard what is possible in that area are you in a position to judge it in comparison with high quality equipment made today. Unlike most vintage audio enthusiasts, where nostalgia or some hankering to relive the 'good old days' plays a major part in their buying decisions, such things mean ZERO to me. I buy it because I genuinely believe, through many years of experience, that the finest examples of vintage equipment have been unsurpassed today, and when judiciously modified, can compete (and in some ways outperform) the best of modern hi-fi.
That's not some fanciful notion, incidentally; it reflects the results of the many relevant comparisons I've carried out over the last 10 years, or so, since I've been into vintage hi-fi, together with the knowledge I've gained from 25+ years in total of using all manner of high quality hi-fi equipment.
Anyway, hopefully that should help put things into perspective better for you, in terms of my position on this matter :)
So what if I was to offer you a new hypothetical 'wonder amp' at exactly the same price level, that wasn't understated in the least, with a 'look' designed by FA Porsche, but on audition, actually sounded to your ears better than those amps you own? And what if the manufacturer of the amps had a full-on marketing campaign in all the hi-fi press? Would you buy it? Would you consider buying it?
Now I don't want to 'mind read' you, but I'm guessing you wouldn't as the aesthetics of the gear and the way it was marketed would turn you off completely. And what would be wrong with that? Absolutely nothing. We all surround ourselves with people and things that reflect a myriad of preferences consciously or subconsciously. And in hi-fi terms, that means it isn't all about the sound.
That’s an interesting question. The answer is that although what you're saying about me is correct, ultimately, if said 'wonder amp' was significantly better, to my ears, sonically, than my Copper power amp or Croft preamp, then despite the commercial and marketing bullshit attached to it, such as you mention, or its looks, I'd buy it - and I'd do it even if the amp cost ten times more! However, it would have to utterly piss all over what I currently use and 100% justify its cost in out-and-out sonic performance, before I'd entertain the notion.
I'm a music lover first and foremost, so ultimately, for me, audio equipment is simply a tool to do a job. Therefore, if I find a better tool for the purpose, I use it. I'm fortunate to be in a position where, within reason, money isn't an issue... *BUT*, unlike most of the customers Alan mentions, who go into 'posh' London stores to drop £50k on an amplifier (or more), I'm not swayed by brand reputation or the perceived prestige of owning certain makes of hi-fi equipment, nor do I get a 'warm glow' or a sense of smug satisfaction from being served by someone dressed in a suit, who operates inside a 'blingy' looking and ostentatious retail establishment.
For me, that is superficial nonsense for those who are stupid enough to be impressed by such frippery, or worse, need it in order to justify where their money is spent. I find such materialistic values not only crass, but rather vulgar. Such thinking is completely alien to me. I simply don't need to 'show off', due to snobbery or underlying issues of insecurity or low self-esteem, as I'm utterly relaxed and comfortable with my status in life and who I am. Each to his or her own, I guess, but I will never be able to relate to the type of mentality which dictates that elitism and the need to impress is important.
Marco.
Alan Sircom
17-06-2013, 01:40
I'm a music lover first and foremost, so ultimately, for me, audio equipment is simply a tool to do a job. Therefore, if I find a better tool for the purpose, I use it. I'm fortunate to be in a position where, within reason, money isn't an issue... *BUT*, unlike most of the customers Alan mentions, who go into 'posh' London stores to drop £50k on an amplifier (or more), I'm not swayed by brand reputation or the perceived prestige of owning certain makes of hi-fi equipment, nor do I get a 'warm glow' or a sense of smug satisfaction from being served by someone dressed in a suit, who operates inside a 'blingy' looking and ostentatious retail establishment.
For me, that is superficial nonsense for those who are stupid enough to be impressed by such materialistic frippery, or worse, need it in order to justify where their money is spent. Each to his or her own, I guess, but I will never be able to relate to that type of mentality.
Marco.
Marco,
I've really got to ask - how much of your dislike of the high-end is based on real-world experience? Because the high-end world you describe does not exist in reality.
As I've said, the majority of people I've met who buy and use high-end equipment are not buying it for prestige or status. They buy it because they use it (often use it a lot) and because they love their music and the way it sounds. That doesn't make them status whores or brand junkies, it just makes them passionate about their music. If someone compares a Garrard 401 to a Kuzma XL4, and prefers the sound of the Kuzma, they are not buying the brand or the dream or the bling... they are expressing a preference about how they want to hear their music. The process is no different than if they were comparing a Pro-Ject to a Rega, or a Continuum with a TechDAS.
Also, the snobbery you ascribe to such people doesn't seem to be a significant issue in reality. Most relish the prospect of speaking to someone who shares common interests and goals, no matter where they are on the journey. I'd say the inverted snobbery of painting all such people as 'stupid' and 'superficial' is far more prevalent and malign.
As to these ostentatious establishments you describe, where are you finding these places? The new-look KJ West One aside, every other high-end emporium I've been to in the UK has either been the inside of someone's house, or about as plush as the average Magnet kitchen showroom or Majestic Wine warehouse. The best ones are clean and presentable, and sometimes a little dated, but not the fabulous palaces you seem to be painting them to be. That the sales staff wear clean clothes and even the occasional ironed shirt isn't what I'd call 'pretentious'; it is basic etiquette in any client-facing job.
Even the new look KJ - with its marbled floors and better lighting - has been changed largely to bring it on a par with the rest of the Marylebone Lane set. As a consequence, it attracts more passing trade and new business, and sells a lot of Linn systems and Harbeth speakers as a result.
Hi Alan,
The comments made in the last paragraph of my previous post were in direct response to the following, and the type of characters you describe therein:
It's worth remembering that when discussing 'blingy confection', you are talking about a very specific clientele who view walking into the average hi-fi shop with the same enthusiasm as they would stepping into a diseased lung. If you are used to doing your big-ticket transactions in stores with marble floors to sales people who wear suits, you are unlikely to push tens of thousands toward someone in a room that looks like it's Mother's room from Psycho and to a guy who thinks it's OK to wear last week's breakfast on his polo shirt.
I presumed from what you've written, and from your experience of dealing with buyers of 'big-ticket', high-end audio, that this was the normal mindset in those types of circles, and with the mention of the new 'fancified' KJ store, that there was a move in London, and elsewhere in big cities in other countries, to create more of these types of 'showy' establishments?
If I'm wrong on both counts, then fair enough. However, from personal experience I know of the type of people you're referring to above, and I have nothing in common with them, other than being financially secure. Aside from that, I dislike the mindset that, in terms of importance, places such superficial frippery ahead of the qualities of the dealer himself (knowledge and helpfulness, etc), worrying more about the decor of his shop and what he's wearing than whether he's the best man to suits your needs, in terms of building the best sounding and most 'bang-per-buck effective' system.
An ostentatious looking dealer's premises would turn me off far more than it 'excited' me, as I'd know that it would be me who would be indirectly paying for it all!!
You yourself mentioned something about that it was a disgrace a dealer hadn't decorated his shop since the 80s (or words to that effect). Well, personally, I couldn't give a shit about things like that, as long as it was reasonably clean and tidy.
What matters most, for me, is that the shop stocks what I'm looking for, the person I'm dealing with is knowledgeable about the product(s) I'm intending to buy, and above all, that he or she is a genuine enthusiast, in the business for the RIGHT reasons (not simply to make money), and a nice person who's going to treat me with the respect I deserve and offer the best possible customer service, not only when getting my business initially, but later once they've got it, in terms of after sales service.
As long as an establishment meets those criteria, I don't give a flying toss about anything else! I know plenty of dealers who fit that category, some of whom are members of this forum, and yes, some of them also operate from home, which if done proeprly, is arguably the best place these days to run a hi-fi business.
I can list the relevant dealers if you wish? :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
17-06-2013, 07:26
In any market there are different types of buyer, and they have different goals. There is no reason why someone with millions shouldn't become interested in Hifi as an out and out hobby. But, like most poor people arent interested either, most rich people buy "HiFi" because they want a gramophone to play their music on - or its modern equivalent. They are not interested in the hobby. But, as with their toothbrush, hoover, and persian carpet, they can afford the best and they'd like to have it. There is nothing wrong with that - and mostly they'll get a very nice expensive whateveritis and be very happy with it. sometimes (like my story of the $120,000 speakers elsewhere) it will sound so poor even though it is "the best" that they will notice and send it back. In making those sort of purchases, they will want to shop in a nice environment, as they do for their groceries. You buy tomatoes in Waitrose - you buy Hifi in KJ. There needs to be, and there is nothing wrong with, that sort of retail outlet, and those sort of products. My dear old friends at Linn seem to have moved that way, and I'm very happy for them.
It is a different world from the enthusiast one largely. The problem is, whether rich, poor, or middle of the road, the size of that enthusiast market fell off a cliff with the arrival of CD. It appears to be making a bit of a comeback. But actually, even "honest" "enthusiast" shops are limited in the context of the enthusiasts on this forum. They may be staffed by genuine enthusiasts, but their job must be to chose a product range, and stock it, providing courteous advice, demonstration facilities and the like. But in the final analysis, they are a shop, and not a reference library for enthusiasts seeking to evaluate the ultimate product.
Marco - I heard you describe your equipment and the choices you made to Julian, and my mouth waters ever more for that cassoulet, but we are all ultimately dealing with our own little bubbles. If I came over for dinner and listened to your stereogram, you wouldnt know what mine sounded like. If I bought mine with me, you wouldnt know what it sounded like in my living room. We have no idea what each others equipment sounds like really - only what it looks like, and what it costs, and Marco's is MUCH prettier than mine, and MUCH more expensive. But how did you choose it? I am pretty sure somewhere you said you bought the cartridge blind, and were duly very pleased with it when you got it home. I would hazard the arm too. Or did you get to listen to it on a Technics 1200 with Mike bearing, Funk platter, sorbothane feet and achromat first? The only piece of hifi I have ever put in my system without extensive audition in like equipment was the goldring cartridge, and although nobody has replied to my thread asking for suggestions for better, I am interested in that. But I want to hear it before I shell out big bucks sticking it in the system.
Of course I was lucky all those years ago at PT and got to borrow lots of toys without going to a shop (and went to lots of shops where they showed me their toys), and I am not going to get that again.
And there arent too many retailers where I could do that. Which makes it a changed world from the one I grew up in. Perhaps, I am just going to have to adapt to this "chose by forum vote" modern method, that I am about to address on the technics v lenco thread. But I fear I am too careful with my money to throw myself into that with gay abandon. A cautious toe in the water maybe...
It would appear to me that there are essentially 2 types of 'high end' purchaser. Type 1 is an enthusiast with a fair amount of experience with different kit who now has some real money to spend for the first time. They are unlikely to be impressed by price tags, bling, battleship build quality (where it is not required), fancy marble-floored showrooms and dealers wearing Armani shirts and £500 ties. Type 2 also has the money but knows nothing about hi-fi and is therefore heavily influenced by such matters when making their decision about what and where to purchase their new equipment. Whilst I agree is unfair and potentially divisive to categorise these people as superficial show-offs it would seem that they are the bulk of the target market - indeed the mana from heaven - for the hi-end dealers. A poor showroom and scruffy staff will put these people off, in the same way that you would think twice about buying a used car from a shabby salesman operating a run-down lot, even if confident that the vehicle itself was completely sound.
None of this would be a problem in itself except that it is putting off less well-heeled potential enthusiasts by creating the image that to achieve a good sound costs a lot of money.
Awesome post, Martin... That is 100% my position on the matter and why I dislike the audio industry pandering to the needs of the 'Type 2' customer, when it should be catering MORE for the 'Type 1'! :clap:
Your last sentence is endemic of the current problem and also why AoS is very much focused on dispelling that myth!!
Why do you think I constantly go on about modifying the best vintage equipment? Because, if done properly, it will ultimately, in many ways, save people a lot of money compared with continually buying the 'latest and greatest' new toy, especially when much of the time it's actually quite the opposite...
Marco.
I wonder what the percentage is between type 1 and type 2 buyers?
Awesome post, Martin... That is 100% my position on the matter and why I dislike the audio industry pandering to the needs of the 'Type 2' customer, when it should be catering MORE for the 'Type 1'! :clap:
.
Type 2 pay the bills and generate the profits, for both dealers and manufacturers. They have to be catered for. Type 1 will probably be aware of audio forums and will have a network of friends and associates and can listen to their systems and even borrow kit from them to see if it will work in their own system. They will also be confident enough to take the occasional punt based on gut instinct. That's probably most of us here on this forum. Type 3 are the people on a limited budget with no knowledge. They wander into a showroom - or perhaps visit a dealer's internet site - with the casual idea that they will maybe buy a 'decent system', take one look at the price tags and wander out again. These are the people who are not targeted and these are the people who need to be targeted in order to bring in fresh blood to the industry. I would like to see somewhere like this 'KJ West' that, in addition to the £50K systems also has a £500 system set up that they can offer to the Type 3 customer. Whilst some will purchase it and keep it for 20 years, many of them will also take it as a starting point and begin to upgrade as funds become available.
Type 2 pay the bills and generate the profits, for both dealers and manufacturers. They have to be catered for.
Indeed (undoubtedly so), but so do Type 1s. I've spent around £35k, in total, in my system. Who do you think got that? Dealers and audio designers, directly, who deserved my business, that's who. If the high-end audio industry catered MORE (and that's the operative word here) for people like me, then along with supporting the needs of Type 2s, it would be in a far better state than it is!
The ONLY reason I go through the bother of buying vintage equipment and modifying it is because, apart from the areas where I've invested significantly in modern components, currently available options elsewhere are outperformed significantly by my judiciously modified vintage equipment...
Now if modern equipment, in general, was built to be better sounding in the first place, and designed more with ultimate sonic performance in mind, rather than aesthetic frippery, convenience of use, miniaturisation, or the lowest possible investment in parts, but the highest retail price that can be gotten away with, in order to keep the company accountant happy (such is the case largely these days), then I might be more inclined to buy it, including countless others in the 'Type 1' category.
The longer the high-end audio industry continues to pander MOSTLY to Type 2s, the longer it will go without seeing money from genuine enthusiasts like me. Do you see where I'm going here?
Type 3 are the people on a limited budget with no knowledge. They wander into a showroom - or perhaps visit a dealer's internet site - with the casual idea that they will maybe buy a 'decent system', take one look at the price tags and wander out again. These are the people who are not targeted and these are the people who need to be targeted in order to bring in fresh blood to the industry. I would like to see somewhere like this 'KJ West' that, in addition to the £50K systems also has a £500 system set up that they can offer to the Type 3 customer.
Hear, hear! And it is *precisely* those types of customer that AoS is focused on helping, which is why I offer my advice to people in that category as much as possible. AoS or I have little interest in Type 2s. They can look after themselves! :exactly:
Marco.
StanleyB
17-06-2013, 09:18
The problem with T2 is that they are frequently influenced by headline grabbing comments that better means spending more. It's only when you get to the knowledgeable T1 and T2 stage that the really excellent kits in the lower price bracket start to get noticed. It never fails to amaze me how many high end and expensive kits have somewhere in their set up a low cost addition.
The problem with T2 is that they are frequently influenced by headline grabbing comments that better means spending more. It's only when you get to the knowledgeable T1 and T2 stage that the really excellent kits in the lower price bracket start to get noticed.
Spot on, Stan - and the latter is ably facilitated by forums such as AoS :)
The first part of your sentence is endemic of what is wrong with many of today's buyers. We need to educate people that spending more doesn't necessarily, and most certainly does not automatically guarantee better sound, and provide them with real-world examples of other, very successful, approaches.
The problem is that, after recognising the merits of our approach, people need to start having the gumption to trust their own ears and carry out the plan, rather than choosing the easy option and merely buying what the industry promotes as 'best'......
Marco.
Alan Sircom
17-06-2013, 10:07
Guys,
You seem to be getting this massively out of proportion. Stores like KJ West One cater for a very specific clientele, because it's one of the only audio stores that has both a walk-in trade and has the blue parts of the Monopoly board as its catchment area. Walrus is another store in the same region, but it's more of a specialist-specific store (New Quebec Street is not a high-foot-traffic area) and as a consequence its catchment area is the whole country.
But no matter what the clientele, whether they are looking to spend a few hundred or a few hundred thousand on audio equipment, the fact remains the stores should be periodically refreshed and refitted. This has an extremely well-documented and predictable two-tier effect if done properly; the existing customers come back for a 'nose around' and new potential clients begin coming in. This doesn't need to happen on a regular basis, but it does need to happen about once a decade or so. In between, the staff need to be periodically trained and retrained on new products and new technologies, on customer service and management, on changes in marketing the store, on any changes to the legal framework they work in and on being able to survive as a retailer in an e-tailing world. The staff and store also need to be clean, bright and personable.
This is precisely what Julian Richer insists on in Richer Sounds stores, and what Paul Lee Kemp instils in those who take up Sevenoaks franchises.
It's also about catering for a specific clientele and knowing where your limits are. Few dealers keep a range spanning £250 Rotel integrated amps to a £50,000 Constellation pre/powers today, because a dealer's clientele its nearby rivals and locale will dictate its stocking policy. What would be the point of Richer Sounds stocking Krell, when no one who walks through the door will ever ask about Krell? Similarly, what would be the point for somewhere like KJ stocking budget Marantz equipment if its prospective customers consider Linn as a starting place? It's rare if you know your market, but those who take their duties seriously will recommend a client to a different store if that store better fits that customer's criteria. This isn't snobbery, it's reading your market.
Most buyers who spend large sums of money on things are well-informed before, during and after the purchase. There's a tendency here to view people who buy new equipment as stupid people who are picked off by retailers as some kind of low-hanging fruit. I find this a deeply offensive and arrogant inverted snobbery, based on little more than your own projected view of what constitutes a buyer of audio in 2013.
That you say the dealers and the magazines are remiss for not providing the relevant information needed to make a proper buying decision shows just how out of touch you are with real consumers these days. We live in a Wiki world, where the customer is always right, even if they aren't. Saying 'I'm sorry, but I don't think those small two-way stand mounts will give you enough bass for your dubstep tracks in a room that's 30' x 24'" is not viewed as expert opinion, but confrontation. One of the big changes to modern sales training is learning how to position the conversation to get the customer to ask questions that taps the retailer's knowledge base, without having the customer walk out and call the retailer arrogant and cocky.
I think a lot of this confusion comes because many of you don't really have a chip in this game. You don't go to dealers, you want nothing to do with dealers and construct an idea of what dealers do and don't do based on information several steps removed from the experience.
I see it similar to cars.
Some want a bog standard runaround sub £1,000 and don't care how it looks as long as it is reliable.
Others will tweak and get a slightly better car to get a few MPH out of it and maybe slightly better handling.
Others will get a £50,000 car off the shelf that does the job,not a lot better than possibly the grand car.
No right or wrong way,and similar to hi fi.
Most punters can't be arsed with tweaking whether it be cars or hi fi.
StanleyB
17-06-2013, 10:37
Most buyers who spend large sums of money on things are well-informed before, during and after the purchase. There's a tendency here to view people who buy new equipment as stupid people who are picked off by retailers as some kind of low-hanging fruit. I find this a deeply offensive and arrogant inverted snobbery, based on little more than your own projected view of what constitutes a buyer of audio in 2013.
I think that you are getting well above yourself Alan and throwing about insults that I find offensive. What you think is your business, but that doesn't give you the right to portray it as facts and to then launch into a tirade towards the rest of us well mannered members. I cannot remember the last time I read such insulting comments towards the wider AoS community. Get hold of your senses man, and man up. Otherwise nobody is going to bother reading any further and consider your rant nothing more than that of a grumpy old man with money to burn who expects everyone to jump in line at the first click of your fingers.
Have to say i agree with a lot of what alan is saying.
Oldpinkman
17-06-2013, 10:46
Be nice to each other boys! I feel the point Alan is making, that I would like to offer some support for, and which resonates with other points I have made, is that if the industry becomes too "customising" it is inaccessible to conventional manufacturer / supply chain. Some of the GL75's I've been pointed at will have taken 10's, probably hundreds of hours work from unusually skilled people. They probably cost thousands for those DIYers. To commercially build something like that puts it miles out of the ordinary punter realm. And retailers need standard product as their lifeblood - not tips on customisation.
julesd68
17-06-2013, 10:46
The ONLY reason I go through the bother of buying vintage equipment and modifying it is because, apart from the areas where I've invested significantly in modern components, currently available options elsewhere are outperformed significantly by my judiciously modified vintage equipment...
I can totally appreciate this in your case Marco, but I am convinced there are a lot of people who buy 'vintage' on the assumption that it sounds better to modern gear, not based on any direct comparison or knowledge.
** This is not directed at anyone on this forum !! **
I am heavily influenced by vintage impulses at the moment. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought a bright yellow 70's racing bike! I like the 70's aesthetic. I love the fact that my Tannoys look like they were designed at the same time as my Habitat furniture. I love everything about the way my 'new' vintage tuner looks. They somehow remind me of a happy childhood. But, and more importantly, this gear has outperformed the modern gear they have replaced and by a considerable margin. I also have modern gear that I love as well. Can't imagine replacing my Conrand-Johnson phono stage till I win the lottery and have always enjoyed my Consonance cdp. So I like to think that I am open-minded about where great audio can come from.
Saying all that, in terms of sound per pound, I think well-chosen vintage gear can make a lot of sense, up till the point where you have a serious wedge to play with and value for money becomes less important. Take my Source turntable for example, which I paid under £500 for a few years ago. This is a deck that originally retailed from £1000 in the early 1980's, without arm and cartridge. Now, what would a deck engineered to an equivalent standard cost me today? Much, more more than I could afford I will wager. And just to put this into perspective, I was briefly tempted to buy a second-hand Oracle Paris turntable as a comparison for the Source, but it had no dust cover which really put me off. I emailed Oracle directly to see if one could be bought, and after ONE MONTH AND TWO WEEKS, the email was forwarded to a UK distributor who quoted me £375 for the cover!! Absolute lunacy of the highest order, and, to borrow Alan's words, this is the kind of thing that can make me feel like I am seen as one of the "stupid people who are picked off by retailers as some kind of low-hanging fruit".
Hi Alan,
You seem to be getting this massively out of proportion. Stores like KJ West One cater for a very specific clientele, because it's one of the only audio stores that has both a walk-in trade and has the blue parts of the Monopoly board as its catchment area. Walrus is another store in the same region, but it's more of a specialist-specific store (New Quebec Street is not a high-foot-traffic area) and as a consequence its catchment area is the whole country.
That's cool. I understand that, but what I'm saying is that I'd like to see more Walrus-type "specialist-specific" stores, as you referred to them, (I'd call them 'genuine enthusiast' shops), in existence around the world, than KJ West ones - and don't say that there aren't many of the latter, because you've already mentioned earlier the leading ones, positioned in the world's main cities! ;)
But no matter what the clientele, whether they are looking to spend a few hundred or a few hundred thousand on audio equipment, the fact remains the stores should be periodically refreshed and refitted. This has an extremely well-documented and predictable two-tier effect if done properly; the existing customers come back for a 'nose around' and new potential clients begin coming in. This doesn't need to happen on a regular basis, but it does need to happen about once a decade or so. In between, the staff need to be periodically trained and retrained on new products and new technologies, on customer service and management, on changes in marketing the store, on any changes to the legal framework they work in and on being able to survive as a retailer in an e-tailing world.
In an ideal world, I 100% agree, but it should NEVER EVER come before the qualities I outlined in my previous post. Also, the vast majority of dealers I've used and have had personal experience with, (mostly) conform to your requirements.
This is precisely what Julian Richer insists on in Richer Sounds stores, and what Paul Lee Kemp instils in those who take up Sevenoaks franchises.
Indeed, and in terms of JR, I have the utmost respect for his business model of what an entry-level hi-fi shop should be, although I'd prefer it if the focus was less on TVs and AV-related paraphernalia, and more on decent, affordable 2-channel audio. People such as JR will always earn my respect, whereas folk like Ricardo Franassovici, of Absolute Sounds, get less of my respect, simply because his business model largely panders to the 'hi-fi jewellery' brigade and/or those who value the 'prestige factor' of high-end audio equipment - and yes, I have real-life experiences of this!!
It's also about catering for a specific clientele and knowing where your limits are. Few dealers keep a range spanning £250 Rotel integrated amps to a £50,000 Constellation pre/powers today, because a dealer's clientele its nearby rivals and locale will dictate its stocking policy. What would be the point of Richer Sounds stocking Krell, when no one who walks through the door will ever ask about Krell? Similarly, what would be the point for somewhere like KJ stocking budget Marantz equipment if its prospective customers consider Linn as a starting place? It's rare if you know your market, but those who take their duties seriously will recommend a client to a different store if that store better fits that customer's criteria. This isn't snobbery, it's reading your market.
Sure, I have no problem with that. I would simply like to see the market contain more equipment, designed around the goals of someone like Glenn Croft, than what is so often these days the opposite.
Most buyers who spend large sums of money on things are well-informed before, during and after the purchase. There's a tendency here to view people who buy new equipment as stupid people who are picked off by retailers as some kind of low-hanging fruit. I find this a deeply offensive and arrogant inverted snobbery, based on little more than your own projected view of what constitutes a buyer of audio in 2013.
Nope, not at all. I comment from a position of experience of not only knowing personally of people who occupy the (largely clueless) 'key-jangler', badge-fi first category I've described, but having dealt with them when I worked in the industry (at various dealer's premises), and also reading other forums full of those very people. Therefore, Alan, I'm sorry, but it's you who are jumping to conclusions here.
That you say the dealers and the magazines are remiss for not providing the relevant information needed to make a proper buying decision shows just how out of touch you are with real consumers these days. We live in a Wiki world, where the customer is always right, even if they aren't. Saying 'I'm sorry, but I don't think those small two-way stand mounts will give you enough bass for your dubstep tracks in a room that's 30' x 24'" is not viewed as expert opinion, but confrontation.
Perhaps that's true, but it doesn't make it right, and it shouldn't be 'confrontational' if handled correctly by someone able to do so.
One of the big changes to modern sales training is learning how to position the conversation to get the customer to ask questions that taps the retailer's knowledge base, without having the customer walk out and call the retailer arrogant and cocky.
That's good, and I applaud that. However, I would also like to see more of the retailer not simply seeing the customer as a short-term 'pound sign', but more as a long-term investment, in terms of offering advice that not only results in selling him or her something suitable from their current product portfolio NOW, but that helps the customer achieve long-term satisfation from their purchase, perhaps initially with the retailer even losing a sale, in order to capitalise on the bigger picture ahead.
The best long-term profit maker is loyalty, and customers will often reward dealers who they can see genuinely have their best interests at heart, as well as the desire to earn a living. Unfortunately today, the focus from retailers is much more on the latter (or worse, customers are viewed merely as a 'pound sign'), and this situation is only sustainable until the customer wises up and then takes his or her business elsewhere, to someone else who is ultimately more customer-focused.
I think a lot of this confusion comes because many of you don't really have a chip in this game. You don't go to dealers, you want nothing to do with dealers and construct an idea of what dealers do and don't do based on information several steps removed from the experience.
With respect, that's complete nonsense, as I've just demonstrated.
Marco.
StanleyB
17-06-2013, 10:53
Have to say i agree with a lot of what alan is saying.
Do you agree with his comment as well that There's a tendency here to view people who buy new equipment as stupid people who are picked off by retailers as some kind of low-hanging fruit.? I cannot recollect ever seeing any of such thing on AoS and would pour scorn on anyone trying to defend such outrageous accusations towards the wider AoS community.
I see a lot of loathing towards Hi fi dealers on forums yes.
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That you say the dealers and the magazines are remiss for not providing the relevant information needed to make a proper buying decision shows just how out of touch you are with real consumers these days. We live in a Wiki world, where the customer is always right, even if they aren't. Saying 'I'm sorry, but I don't think those small two-way stand mounts will give you enough bass for your dubstep tracks in a room that's 30' x 24'" is not viewed as expert opinion, but confrontation. One of the big changes to modern sales training is learning how to position the conversation to get the customer to ask questions that taps the retailer's knowledge base, without having the customer walk out and call the retailer arrogant and cocky.
.
Do you have a sales background at all, Alan? Just wondering as I do find the idea that there have been new developments in the field of selling to be quite amusing. It is the salesman that needs to be asking the (open) questions in order to determine what the customer wants. Once he has this information he recommends products that he stocks that will meet the customer's needs. Done correctly this will always almost return a sale because the customer has explained his needs, is convinced they have been met, and therefore cannot think of a reason why he should not buy. If a customer came to me saying that he has a large room, listens to dubstep but must have small speakers then I would sell him the most suitable small speakers, not try to convince him that he needs large speakers as this is more likely to result in him walking away.
I see a lot of loathing towards Hi fi dealers on forums yes.
Not here you shouldn't, Stu, unless it's justified for a very good reason (i.e. someone has been blatantly ripped off)!
'Loathing' is a very strong word.
Marco.
Marco - I heard you describe your equipment and the choices you made to Julian, and my mouth waters ever more for that cassoulet, but we are all ultimately dealing with our own little bubbles. If I came over for dinner and listened to your stereogram, you wouldnt know what mine sounded like. If I bought mine with me, you wouldnt know what it sounded like in my living room. We have no idea what each others equipment sounds like really - only what it looks like, and what it costs, and Marco's is MUCH prettier than mine, and MUCH more expensive. But how did you choose it? I am pretty sure somewhere you said you bought the cartridge blind, and were duly very pleased with it when you got it home. I would hazard the arm too. Or did you get to listen to it on a Technics 1200 with Mike bearing, Funk platter, sorbothane feet and achromat first? The only piece of hifi I have ever put in my system without extensive audition in like equipment was the goldring cartridge, and although nobody has replied to my thread asking for suggestions for better, I am interested in that. But I want to hear it before I shell out big bucks sticking it in the system.
Of course I was lucky all those years ago at PT and got to borrow lots of toys without going to a shop (and went to lots of shops where they showed me their toys), and I am not going to get that again.
And there arent too many retailers where I could do that. Which makes it a changed world from the one I grew up in. Perhaps, I am just going to have to adapt to this "chose by forum vote" modern method, that I am about to address on the technics v lenco thread. But I fear I am too careful with my money to throw myself into that with gay abandon. A cautious toe in the water maybe...
Richard, I'll get to your post later - just need to nip out somewhere, matey :)
Marco.
Take my Source turntable for example, which I paid under £500 for a few years ago. This is a deck that originally retailed from £1000 in the early 1980's, without arm and cartridge. Now, what would a deck engineered to an equivalent standard cost me today? Much, more more than I could afford I will wager. And just to put this into perspective, I was briefly tempted to buy a second-hand Oracle Paris turntable as a comparison for the Source, but it had no dust cover which really put me off. I emailed Oracle directly to see if one could be bought, and after ONE MONTH AND TWO WEEKS, the email was forwarded to a UK distributor who quoted me £375 for the cover!! Absolute lunacy of the highest order, and, to borrow Alan's words, this is the kind of thing that can make me feel like I am seen as one of the "stupid people who are picked off by retailers as some kind of low-hanging fruit".
Good post, Julian, and a very valid point! Unfortunately, there's way too much of this blatant profiteering going on in today's audio industry. Ever tried asking some companies what they charge for an empty box, never mind a T/T lid!!
I guess they assume that if someome can afford a £5k T/T (if that's roughly what the Paris costs?), then they can afford, and won't baulk at, paying £375 for a plastic lid. However, it's that rather ignorant assumption that rips my knitting! :steam:
Right, must dash. Laters, muchachos! :cool:
Marco.
An interesting thread, but too much invective I think.
Hi-fi is no different from anything else in that many manufacturers and retailers will stratify the market based on meeting the needs of their customers in terms of their propensity to spend, the average value of the sale, and the expectations of a customer in terms of the environment they will do business in. For 'high-end' items with a high price tag, this means retailing them in an environment that is in keeping with the brand image and the expectations of the clientele. Look at almost any retail sector such as motor vehicles, clothing, jewelry and so on to see it in practice. The environment where a high end product is sold is a <significant> part of the value proposition and sales experience from the point of view of the customers buying such products.
This isn't to say that the wealthy are dupes, or that they are ignorant and fooled by flashy products and showrooms - they will often be discerning and well informed. They will be used to a professional sales and after-sales service for the other high-value products they buy, and providing this is simply a hygiene factor to make a sale and you won't otherwise. From a business perspective, it makes sense to chase a higher average sale value, so it isn't surprising that retailers will do what they need to in order to attract customers willing to invest a significant amount of money in what is in reality a discretionary and non-essential purchase.
Whether or not you you are spending a lot of money, you should always expect decent, courteous service and a good buying experience, along with a decent retail environment. Why should Hi-Fi be any different to any retail outlet in that respect? - to argue otherwise seems a bit perverse to me.
Although I haven't bought Hi-Fi at retail (other than at Richer Sounds) for a while, I have to say that my past dealings with dealers such as the listening rooms were very positive, and they couldn't have been more friendly and helpful. Their shop and listening room was always a nice place to be, and I was always treated extremely well even though I wasn't in a position to spend a great deal with them.
Talking of Richer sounds, I have always received extremely good service from them, and outstanding product backup. Maybe I have just been lucky, but I would say that I have been left more than satisfied by my Hi-Fi purchases through retailers - are things really so bad out there?.
Regards,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Hi-fi is no different from anything else in that many manufacturers and retailers will stratify the market based on meeting the needs of their customers in terms of their propensity to spend, the average value of the sale, and the expectations of a customer in terms of the environment they will do business in. For 'high-end' items with a high price tag, this means retailing them in an environment that is in keeping with the brand image and the expectations of the clientele.
You're absolutely right, but it's this "brand image" nonsense, and people's interest in such superficial bullshit, that is part of the problem. Perhaps if people were less concerned with the brand image of the goods that they bought, and concentrated more instead on the importance of practical considerations, such as how the item(s) in question perform and whether they best fulfil their needs in that respect, then everything, not only stuff relating to hi-fi, would be cheaper to buy for everyone?
I drive a Mercedes because, in my opinion, it offers the best driving performance and practicalities for what I'm looking for in a car, compared with cars from other manufacturers, up to the price I'm willing to pay, not because of the brand's image or the 'feel good factor' of driving a car from a 'prestigious manufacturer'. I couldn't give a toss about that!
This was proven, for example, when I recently needed to have a new fuel filter fitted to my car. At the Mercedes dealer in Chester, I was quoted £210 for them to supply the part and fit it. My local independent garage (somewhere where I know they do a superlative job) offered to do the same work for me for £50, if I supplied the part. So what did I do?
I went to the Mercedes dealership to buy the part (I only like using genuine Mercedes parts, as they're proven to be the best in their own cars), for £23, gave it to my local garage, and they fitted it. The car now goes like a bomb. Total cost? £73, instead of £210, so the £137 change goes into my pocket instead of that of the Merc dealer!
I wonder what people who value the 'brand image' of the Mercedes dealership would've done? Do you see my point?
And that's *exactly* how I conduct myself when buying hi-fi equipment: I INSIST on getting the best value for money possible and highest return on my investment, on the things that really matter!! ;)
Marco.
Marco,
Yes, I do understand your point completely. The car analogy is probably a poor one as I think that people choose cars for a number of reasons, but a very significant part for many, many people is what they think it says about them to others. Personally I don't think the same holds true for Hi-Fi, because for the general public, if you buy a hi-end Hi-Fi , you are already a nerdy dork, no matter who makes it (maybe apart from B&O or suchlike) :lol:.
Anyway, we shouldn't be down on retailers who are trying to present a good image of themselves and their products. The majority I have dealt with have been exemplary in all of these respects, and I understand that although I may not be getting the absolute lowest price, but am paying for service and after-sales support.
BTW, I also use an independent garage to look after my Merc as I got sick of them charging a fortune while not being able to conduct the most rudimentary diagnosis. Their normal approach seems to be to throw expensive parts at it until the fault goes away... no root cause analysis at all. If the core service isn't delivered well, then it doesn't matter how good the coffee is or the surroundings!.
Cheers,
Alex
Where are all these bling shops? I haven't found them apart from KJ which is suitably kitted out for the local market given its position on the map. Marco has nailed his colours to the mast and I get the message. However, I would have expected more equanimity from the 'boss' of a forum purporting to offer friendly advice and conversation. Reading this thread I get the feeling that I may be less than welcome, having some of this grossly overpriced? stuff, none from KJ by the way. Ah well....
Where are all these bling shops? I haven't found them apart from KJ which is suitably kitted out for the local market given its position on the map. Marco has nailed his colours to the mast and I get the message. However, I would have expected more equanimity from the 'boss' of a forum purporting to offer friendly advice and conversation. Reading this thread I get the feeling that I may be less than welcome, having some of this grossly overpriced? stuff, none from KJ by the way. Ah well....
Of course you are welcome - nobody here gives a monkeys whether you spend £100 or £100K - it's your money. I could spend a lot more than I do on kit but part of the fun for me is (trying) to get a good sound on the cheap. Everyone has their own approach and if it works for you that is A-Okay.
i think sometimes personal experience does not always mean a company as a whole provide bad service.
i have bought a number of goods from audio t and always find them helpful and quick to reply to emails.
my friend had a different experience.
now my friend has bought from Emporium and found their service very good and their responses to his emails very good where abouts on the three times i asked about something on their ebay site i never heard back so bought elsewhere.
i did buy from a certain second hand site and found them very good if you call but emails and updating their website i found very poor.
In retail wages can be low which does not inspire staff to offer the best service.
on their wage they just offer the bare basic service.
though you do from time to time find a member of staff who enjoys helping people.
i had my eyes tested in asda last week and i found the service,helpful and friendly.
though i am sure you could find someone with the opposite view.
Where are all these bling shops? I haven't found them apart from KJ which is suitably kitted out for the local market given its position on the map. Marco has nailed his colours to the mast and I get the message. However, I would have expected more equanimity from the 'boss' of a forum purporting to offer friendly advice and conversation. Reading this thread I get the feeling that I may be less than welcome, having some of this grossly overpriced? stuff, none from KJ by the way. Ah well....
Sadly Plymouth population 250,000 with no hi fi shops but a Richer sounds.
The public has spoken.
I have only been in three HiFi shops in all my years..
first in Glasgow , one in Edinburgh and one in Falkirk...none of them thought I could afford there top stuff and were reluctant to audition it to me, pointing me to the cheaper end of there stock and one informed me there was a Richer Sounds not more than 10 mins away...lol.
first impressions are often wrong and people in car showrooms and HiFi shops seem to suffer from it. I don't dress badly, but neither do I like getting dolled up unless it is necessary .....
this attitude is the main problem that retail shops have and online shops have a district advantage.
Alan Sircom
17-06-2013, 14:46
Do you have a sales background at all, Alan? Just wondering as I do find the idea that there have been new developments in the field of selling to be quite amusing. It is the salesman that needs to be asking the (open) questions in order to determine what the customer wants. Once he has this information he recommends products that he stocks that will meet the customer's needs. Done correctly this will always almost return a sale because the customer has explained his needs, is convinced they have been met, and therefore cannot think of a reason why he should not buy. If a customer came to me saying that he has a large room, listens to dubstep but must have small speakers then I would sell him the most suitable small speakers, not try to convince him that he needs large speakers as this is more likely to result in him walking away.
Yes. I worked in photo retail for several years, then worked in audio retail for several more. I have been involved in retail training as a trainee years ago, as a trainer and convener of training courses, and have been involved at a senior level in trying to build courses, course structure and even audio-retail specific NVQs for the industry. More recently I've attended several seminars on the changes in the retail space, WRT 'rights vs. responsibility' customers.
The job of the salesperson remains the same - giving the customer what they want. However, if what the customer wants ultimately would transpire as being unfit for purpose (say, a very low mass arm with a medium compliance cartridge), the window of opportunity to explain without being perceived as patronising is now commonly a lot shorter than it was a decade ago.
Anyway, we shouldn't be down on retailers who are trying to present a good image of themselves and their products. The majority I have dealt with have been exemplary in all of these respects, and I understand that although I may not be getting the absolute lowest price, but am paying for service and after-sales support.
Alex,
I think the point about the marble palaces was more akin to the advice you get always to sell the shares of a company whose HQ atrium is as big as the office floor space! That overhead is being paid for (by you!). But a clean, tidy shop with friendly and knowledgable staff (with polished shoes) is worth a premium. You certainly get what you pay for and you should never begrudge a working man his crust or expect him to work for free.
BTW, I also use an independent garage to look after my Merc as I got sick of them charging a fortune while not being able to conduct the most rudimentary diagnosis. Their normal approach seems to be to throw expensive parts at it until the fault goes away... no root cause analysis at all. If the core service isn't delivered well, then it doesn't matter how good the coffee is or the surroundings!.
Cheers,
Alex
+1. My local independent is an example of the best possible customer service and have been with him for over twenty years. He reminds me when my MOTs are due. He keeps costs down. He collects and delivers. He always does what what says he will do and when. He often won't charge for small things. He's more expensive for things like batteries and tyres than the chains but I give my business to him because I value him and don't want to conceive of a life without him. He does two of our cars.
On the other hand, he simply refuses to touch the Range Rover (my work car) - it is apparently a two ton computer on wheels! But I am fortunate that the local LR independent is also excellent, though dear - the car is always valeted, follow up quality of service questionnaires, personal follow up calls etc.
The thing is both places make me feel cared for and that my business is important to them, even when I walk out of them feeling rather bowlegged...:)
Peter
Reading this thread I get the feeling that I may be less than welcome, having some of this grossly overpriced? stuff, none from KJ by the way. Ah well....
Robin - my system is closer to yours in that I have a number of high value components bought at different times over the last 13 years or so. In my case, it was a question of having different lump sums coming in at different times enabling me to afford to buy the 'best' that I was willing to pay for until I had built the system I have today.
I have always had a very clear idea of what I wanted and, in each case, sought out a dealer or importer with whom I could build a relationship, listen to the product both at the dealership and in-home, and finally purchase it. I always purchase from the dealer/importer I've been talking to, never ever going to the internet to them find it cheaper. I have not required a great deal of advice or help because I listen to components at shows and dealerships and form a (very) short list from which to choose. I also don't buy used as a rule, mostly because I have hard-to-find items or (in the case of my DV arm) I specifically wanted it to be new.
Please do feel welcome, your system is fascinating and I for one would love to hear some of your components.
Where are all these bling shops? I haven't found them apart from KJ which is suitably kitted out for the local market given its position on the map. Marco has nailed his colours to the mast and I get the message. However, I would have expected more equanimity from the 'boss' of a forum purporting to offer friendly advice and conversation. Reading this thread I get the feeling that I may be less than welcome, having some of this grossly overpriced? stuff, none from KJ by the way. Ah well....
Hi Robin,
Did you miss my post #86, in response to Alan? If so, I suggest that you read it: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?26264-Why-is-British-retail-so-poor&p=455491#post455491
Of course you're very welcome here! You own the type of system that you do because, to your ears, it makes your music sound better than any other system you've heard, and you can afford the kind of kit you've bought. Your primary buying decision, therefore, was based on hearing your favourite music at its best. That earns my respect.
On the other hand, if you'd bought it simply to try and 'impress' your mates or because it made you feel 'superior' in some way, because you owned equipment from 'prestigious manufacturers', then it would be different, but you'd still be welcome. You're not telling me that you bought your system to be a status symbol, are you? ;)
Marco.
I have only been in three HiFi shops in all my years..
first in Glasgow , one in Edinburgh and one in Falkirk...none of them thought I could afford there top stuff and were reluctant to audition it to me, pointing me to the cheaper end of there stock and one informed me there was a Richer Sounds not more than 10 mins away...lol.
First impressions are often wrong and people in car showrooms and HiFi shops seem to suffer from it. I don't dress badly, but neither do I like getting dolled up unless it is necessary .....
this attitude is the main problem that retail shops have and online shops have a district advantage.
Reminds me of story my dentist told me.
He had an old lady in the chair who was commending him on his outreach work to the local vagrant community. He didn't understand what she was talking about until the exam was over and he escorted her to reception. He bade her farewell and collected his next patient, who was a scruffy old man, perhaps in need of some some soap. He took great delight in announcing very loudly "This way, please, Sir Robert"!
Not that I'm saying you need soap, Struth! Just reinforcing your point about appearances.
Peter
dave2010
17-06-2013, 15:01
I can't make out whether our OP is winding us all up or not.
Yes, I do think that retail in the UK is moderately bad, but nevertheless it's better than a couple of decades ago. As for the delivery of my new yacht to the marina in Monaco, and the Ferarri I ordered yesterday from a chap down in S. Giulio d'Orta only yesterday, I wait to see how well the service compares with other, UK based, outlets. My next plan is to fly members of the LSO out to Boaton, at my expense of course, so that I can hear in person how they will shape up against the Boston Orchestra, which I gather is so impoverished, as are many other US orchestras, that they are not touring outside the US (or at least to Europe) this year.
PS: I feel like an impulse purchase, so I'll put in an offer on a harpsichord , one of those with 2 manuals and a painted lid.
Robin - my system is closer to yours in that I have a number of high value components bought at different times over the last 13 years or so. In my case, it was a question of having different lump sums coming in at different times enabling me to afford to buy the 'best' that I was willing to pay for until I had built the system I have today.
I have always had a very clear idea of what I wanted and, in each case, sought out a dealer or importer with whom I could build a relationship, listen to the product both at the dealership and in-home, and finally purchase it. I always purchase from the dealer/importer I've been talking to, never ever going to the internet to them find it cheaper. I have not required a great deal of advice or help because I listen to components at shows and dealerships and form a (very) short list from which to choose. I also don't buy used as a rule, mostly because I have hard-to-find items or (in the case of my DV arm) I specifically wanted it to be new.
Please do feel welcome, your system is fascinating and I for one would love to hear some of your components.
Cheers - we're on the same page :)
However, if what the customer wants ultimately would transpire as being unfit for purpose (say, a very low mass arm with a medium compliance cartridge), the window of opportunity to explain without being perceived as patronising is now commonly a lot shorter than it was a decade ago.
Sorry, Alan, but I find that mentality (from the customer) utterly bizarre, not to mention totally ridiculous! :mental:
If I were said customer, providing that the behaviour from the salesman was polite and courteous, or even a little bit jokey (I always enjoy having a bit of banter with people, as a buyer or a seller), then I'd be thankful for the salesman's knowledge preventing me from making a mistake - and possibly an expensive one.
As such, if that was the customer's attitude, then they deserve all they get... Jeez, some folk are just WAY too uptight these days!! :rolleyes:
Maybe this is a London/South of England thing? I've found that folk are generally cheerier and less 'snooty' up north!!! ;)
Marco.
Friend of mine used to do a lot of temping - data input mostly - at local firms. He always wore a business suit with waistcoat. I asked him once why he went to so much effort and he replied 'because when you are dressed like this no-one ever asks you to help with unloading the van.'
I can't make out whether our OP is winding us all up or not.
Yes, I do think that retail in the UK is moderately bad, but nevertheless it's better than a couple of decades ago. As for the delivery of my new yacht to the marina in Monaco, and the Ferarri I ordered yesterday from a chap down in S. Giulio d'Orta only yesterday, I wait to see how well the service compares with other, UK based, outlets. My next plan is to fly members of the LSO out to Boaton, at my expense of course, so that I can hear in person how they will shape up against the Boston Orchestra, which I gather is so impoverished, as are many other US orchestras, that they are not touring outside the US (or at least to Europe) this year.
PS: I feel like an impulse purchase, so I'll put in an offer on a harpsichord , one of those with 2 manuals and a painted lid.
Dave,
I may be winding you up, but it is not my intention to do so.
P
Friend of mine used to do a lot of temping - data input mostly - at local firms. He always wore a business suit with waistcoat. I asked him once why he went to so much effort and he replied 'because when you are dressed like this no-one ever asks you to help with unloading the van.'
:lolsign:
Marco.
Reminds me of story my dentist told me.
He had an old lady in the chair who was commending him on his outreach work to the local vagrant community. He didn't understand what she was talking about until the exam was over and he escorted her to reception. He bade her farewell and collected his next patient, who was a scruffy old man, perhaps in need of some some soap. He took great delight in announcing very loudly "This way, please, Sir Robert"!
Not that I'm saying you need soap, Struth! Just reinforcing your point about appearances.
Peter
No offence taken....I wash once a month whether I need it or not:lol:
I don't quite qualify as a deadbeat.....yet! ....
Cheers - we're on the same page :)
What about me - am I off your Christmas card list, lol? ;)
Marco.
Hi Robin,
Did you miss my post #86, in response to Alan? If so, I suggest that you read it: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?26264-Why-is-British-retail-so-poor&p=455491#post455491
Of course you're very welcome here! You own the type of system that you do because, to your ears, it makes your music sound better than any other system you've heard, and you can afford the kind of kit you've bought. Your primary buying decision, therefore, was based on hearing your favourite music at its best. That earns my respect.
On the other hand, if you'd bought it simply to try and 'impress' your mates or because it made you feel 'superior' in some way, because you owned equipment from 'prestigious manufacturers', then it would be different, but you'd still be welcome. You're not telling me that you bought your system to be a status symbol, are you? ;)
Marco.
Pretentious - moi? Perish the thought. The clientèle you clearly dislike are unlikely to be perusing hi fi forums. At present the phonostage is sat on blocks of packing material - because it sounds better that way. Way to go!
You're standing in the corner, Marco :lol:
southall-1998
17-06-2013, 15:35
This thread is a laugh :lol:
MikeMusic
17-06-2013, 16:08
Wonderful
:)
Reminds me of a dozy estate agent who never sent me any details of any properties
Took me a while to realise I had gone in there in scruffy jeans and an old scruffy jacket.
This was for a reasonable large amount of money too
I deliberately walked into a BMW showroom back in 1999 with the intention of buying a new car, dressed in jeans, T-shirt and leather jacket. The salesman took me seriously from the start, sorted out a test drive for me and eventually took my order. I asked him afterwards what made him think I wasn't a timewaster? His answer - my watch! :doh:
sq225917
17-06-2013, 16:45
Glad I'm not alone, lol...
Is there anyone here who actually knew who Alan was referring to initially? Be honest!
Marco.
I expect anyone who reads either of the big 2 U.S mags knows who he is referring to, I certainly did.
julesd68
17-06-2013, 16:45
My best memory of hi-fi dealer service was back in the early 80's when I was only around 16, but had decided that quality sound was something important to me.
I went to the Music Rooms in Manchester to demo all the the budget amps du jour - Cyrus One, Sugden, A60 etc. I went armed with a good pair of ears but no 'technical' knowledge or preconceptions whatsoever. From start to finish I was treated with total respect, and allowed an extended listening session with all the amps and various speakers. They listened to my opinions but never patronised me - for example, when I said that the Sugden sounded 'flat' to me, they said that they stocked it because they found it to be a 'neutral' amp. It is a testament to them that I remember the experience so fondly. If they had given me the 'Not the Nine O'Clock News' treatment, that could potentially have put me off for good …
I was lucky enough to be offered an Albarry pre / power combo second-hand for a very good price by a 'one man band' dealer in South Manchester (wish I could remember his name as he was also amazingly helpful to me) so I didn't buy the amp from the Music Rooms. But, they did get their sale - I returned shortly after to buy a turntable, arm and cart from them.
I should add that they always had a Source tt in pride of place in the middle of the shop downstairs which I always lusted after. Only took me 25 years to get one!! :D
Pretentious - moi? Perish the thought. The clientèle you clearly dislike are unlikely to be perusing hi fi forums. At present the phonostage is sat on blocks of packing material - because it sounds better that way. Way to go!
Lol... Nice one. Trust me, I respect how you've assembled your system and would love to hear some tunes through it some time :)
I agree with what you're saying about hi-fi forums, but you *can* find these types of characters on certain sites, if you know where to look, and when you do, you can't help giggling at some of their antics! ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
17-06-2013, 16:53
Shows he was paying attention, not a common sales trait
Top marks for the salesman
(This for Martin T !)
I expect anyone who reads either of the big 2 U.S mags knows who he is referring to, I certainly did.
Yup, like I said, Simon, the US mags don't interest me, nor does, the best vintage stuff aside, most US hi-fi gear. I love some of the old Mac stuff, Dynaco and Heathkit gear. In terms of new American kit, I like Martin's Ayre SACD player and his Pass Labs pre (if that's American?) but in general, British, Jap and German stuff (occasionally French) does it for me most, as I generally find their equipment more musical sounding :)
Marco.
Shows he was paying attention, not a common sales trait
Top marks for the salesman
(This for Martin T !)
Nah, it was the guy noticing Martin was wearing stockings under his jeans, that swung it! :eek: :lol:
Marco.
In terms of new American kit, I like Martin's Ayre SACD player and his Pass Labs pre (if that's American?)
It certainly is, Marco, and you even quote Nelson Pass in your sig!!
Firebottle
17-06-2013, 17:19
I asked him afterwards what made him think I wasn't a timewaster? His answer - my watch! :doh:
I specifically don't wear a watch or carry an up to date smart phone (haven't got one anyway), or dress in any 'accepted' social class fashion 'cause I don't give a s*** what anyone things of what i look like.
If salespeople can't get around the 'appearance' of the customer then I say tough tittie.
Fascinating thread by the way :)
:cool:Alan
I only buy ultra bell-end audiophile equipment..(see my kit list) from boutique establishments...in fact im about to invest some multi pounds on upgrading my digital rig...including some platinum / tarmacadumb usb cables and a univac harddisk network player running window$ 8 (with touch)...I'm also just waiting for my new cable loom from xenu research lab( L.ron hubbard signature edition -$648'000 per square foot).
P.s. decca is better.fact.:eyebrows:
It certainly is, Marco, and you even quote Nelson Pass in your sig!!
Hahaha... Yes, Indeed. I'd forgotten about that! The quote fundamentally emobodies my values in audio :)
Marco.
I specifically don't wear a watch or carry an up to date smart phone (haven't got one anyway), or dress in any 'accepted' social class fashion 'cause I don't give a s*** what anyone things of what i look like.
If salespeople can't get around the 'appearance' of the customer then I say tough tittie.
Completely agree. There's an old saying that puts a twist on a very well-known other one, which goes: 'if you've got it [money], then you don't need to flaunt it'! ;)
Marco.
System: Superficial Engineering hell/p12 turntable (British Leyland suspension upgrade), Yakitori Mono Cartridge (bamboo cantilever), STI Klinik mkX tonearm, wagamumma head amplifier, intelligence quotient 161 (mensa) preamplifier with 224 NOS Ssangyong ECC88s and GZ34s, barelyaudible research V.P.L. quad mono amplifiers with modified circuit boards (MDF), Gilson W.A.L.L.O.P loudspeakers, uranium cable loom, hysterical research and Dr Mike Amera room treatments, yergota bee-joking cryofrozen fuses throughout Genius :king:
Yup, priceless - Johnny boy's on form!! :lolsign:
Marco.
I think a lot of this confusion comes because many of you don't really have a chip in this game. You don't go to dealers, you want nothing to do with dealers and construct an idea of what dealers do and don't do based on information several steps removed from the experience.
Alan,
I have been reading with interest your posts, as have I Marco's;
For me, when purchasing Hifi equipment I like both the "Dealer" experience and the "taking a punt experience". I for one, have had many good and bad experiences with Hifi dealers over the years.
I came into the Hifi world pretty young, owning my first system at the tender age of 12 and remember an experience in my teens where I went into a Hifi store in Nottingham (Don't think they exist any longer) where I found the salesmen to be extremely ignorant and arrogant, two traits which resulted in me walking out swiftly.
In complete contrast, I found The Powerplant in Brighton to be excellent, especially Lee a salesperson I believe has now moved on. Even though I was young, he was extremely helpful and my father, a couple of friends and I spent monies in there without any thought.
Moving onto Marco's point, my system has been put together painstakingly from purchases/gifts from my father, listening to other systems and liking certain components and most recently the Beresford DAC from recommendations on AoS.
It is my opinion that purchasing Hifi is quite personal, for me anyway, if the sale person is enthusiastic and helpful, they are more likely to get my business, but the same can be said of the majority of my purchases.
In the car industry, I have experienced serious issues, I recently walked into an Audi dealer wearing shorts and a t-shirt and wasn't taken seriously by a pig ignorant salesman. Admittedly I wasn't going to buy that day, but I certainly won't be returning to that dealer when I am in the market, almost to the point where I might by a BMW as an alternative.
Paul.
I only buy ultra bell-end audiophile equipment..(see my kit list) from boutique establishments...in fact im about to invest some multi pounds on upgrading my digital rig...including some platinum / tarmacadumb usb cables and a univac harddisk network player running window$ 8 (with touch)...I'm also just waiting for my new cable loom from xenu research lab( L.ron hubbard signature edition -$648'000 per square foot).
P.s. decca is better.fact.:eyebrows:
I'm not sure your splendid humour will be taken as seriously (or not) as it is elsewhere BM :lol: But from what I can just about remember, your stereo was a very good one - Acoustic Solid, properly rebuilt/retipped/recased Deccas and Denon 103's and the same Gallo speakers beloved of Dalek Supreme Neil :)
Anyway, hope health is stable now and that you're enjoying the hundreds of discs/downloads a month our favourite EM band seems to be releasing each month - I gave up yonks ago as I just can't keep up :(
I'm not sure your splendid humour will be taken as seriously (or not) as it is elsewhere BM :lol: But from what I can just about remember, your stereo was a very good one - Acoustic Solid, properly rebuilt/retipped/recased Deccas and Denon 103's and the same Gallo speakers beloved of Dalek Supreme Neil :)
Anyway, hope health is stable now and that you're enjoying the hundreds of discs/downloads a month our favourite EM band seems to be releasing each month - I gave up yonks ago as I just can't keep up :(
Dave, hope alls well mate.
I have upgraded my 103's with the new kim jong-un depleted uranium casing....much better than the stock body :eyebrows:
:D
I nearly thought of a smart answer to that one :lol: :respect: :clap:
Alan,
I have been reading with interest your posts, as have I Marco's;
For me, when purchasing Hifi equipment I like both the "Dealer" experience and the "taking a punt experience". I for one, have had many good and bad experiences with Hifi dealers over the years.
I came into the Hifi world pretty young, owning my first system at the tender age of 12 and remember an experience in my teens where I went into a Hifi store in Nottingham (Don't think they exist any longer) where I found the salesmen to be extremely ignorant and arrogant, two traits which resulted in me walking out swiftly.
In complete contrast, I found The Powerplant in Brighton to be excellent, especially Lee a salesperson I believe has now moved on. Even though I was young, he was extremely helpful and my father, a couple of friends and I spent monies in there without any thought.
Moving onto Marco's point, my system has been put together painstakingly from purchases/gifts from my father, listening to other systems and liking certain components and most recently the Beresford DAC from recommendations on AoS.
It is my opinion that purchasing Hifi is quite personal, for me anyway, if the sale person is enthusiastic and helpful, they are more likely to get my business, but the same can be said of the majority of my purchases.
In the car industry, I have experienced serious issues, I recently walked into an Audi dealer wearing shorts and a t-shirt and wasn't taken seriously by a pig ignorant salesman. Admittedly I wasn't going to buy that day, but I certainly won't be returning to that dealer when I am in the market, almost to the point where I might by a BMW as an alternative.
Paul.
Jee whiz mate!!! ....DON'T DO IT!
If your going to get a BMW order now, they take an age to deliver. I've known people wait 3 months after they've ponied up the dough.
MikeMusic
17-06-2013, 20:14
Completely agree. There's an old saying that puts a twist on a very well-known other one, which goes: 'if you've got it [money], then you don't need to flaunt it'! ;)
Marco.
and a variation
If you've got it, it's cos you didn't spend it
:)
and a variation
If you've got it, it's cos you didn't spend it
:)
And, of course, it will make a nice cushion in your coffin, because you can take it with you! :)
That is, if the government hasn't taxed it all out of you before you die...
Peter
Alan Sircom
17-06-2013, 20:24
Sorry, Alan, but I find that mentality (from the customer) utterly bizarre, not to mention totally ridiculous! :mental:
If I were said customer, providing that the behaviour from the salesman was polite and courteous, or even a little bit jokey (I always enjoy having a bit of banter with people, as a buyer or a seller), then I'd be thankful for the salesman's knowledge preventing me from making a mistake - and possibly an expensive one.
As such, if that was the customer's attitude, then they deserve all they get... Jeez, some folk are just WAY too uptight these days!! :rolleyes:
Maybe this is a London/South of England thing? I've found that folk are generally cheerier and less 'snooty' up north!!! ;)
Marco.
Marco,
I absolutely agree and no, it's not a London thing. It's a country-wide thing. Polite and courteous buys you more time, but the moment you begin to explain why it doesn't come in shocking pink with sugar frosting, the clock is ticking.
We do live in a rights without responsibilities culture. It is the customer's right to choose something inappropriate and the retailer's responsibility to take the blame and pick up the pieces when it goes pear-shaped.
Alan Sircom
17-06-2013, 20:33
Alan,
I have been reading with interest your posts, as have I Marco's;
For me, when purchasing Hifi equipment I like both the "Dealer" experience and the "taking a punt experience". I for one, have had many good and bad experiences with Hifi dealers over the years.
I came into the Hifi world pretty young, owning my first system at the tender age of 12 and remember an experience in my teens where I went into a Hifi store in Nottingham (Don't think they exist any longer) where I found the salesmen to be extremely ignorant and arrogant, two traits which resulted in me walking out swiftly.
In complete contrast, I found The Powerplant in Brighton to be excellent, especially Lee a salesperson I believe has now moved on. Even though I was young, he was extremely helpful and my father, a couple of friends and I spent monies in there without any thought.
Moving onto Marco's point, my system has been put together painstakingly from purchases/gifts from my father, listening to other systems and liking certain components and most recently the Beresford DAC from recommendations on AoS.
It is my opinion that purchasing Hifi is quite personal, for me anyway, if the sale person is enthusiastic and helpful, they are more likely to get my business, but the same can be said of the majority of my purchases.
In the car industry, I have experienced serious issues, I recently walked into an Audi dealer wearing shorts and a t-shirt and wasn't taken seriously by a pig ignorant salesman. Admittedly I wasn't going to buy that day, but I certainly won't be returning to that dealer when I am in the market, almost to the point where I might by a BMW as an alternative.
Paul.
I think the key thing with any dealer is if you feel confident you can create a working relationship with the store, chances are it's a store worth cultivating. For the reasons you highlight. Those who don't generate that confidence in you... wide berth. That holds regardless.
I think the key thing with any dealer is if you feel confident you can create a working relationship with the store, chances are it's a store worth cultivating. For the reasons you highlight. Those who don't generate that confidence in you... wide berth. That holds regardless.
I agree entirely :)
If your going to get a BMW order now, they take an age to deliver. I've known people wait 3 months after they've ponied up the dough.
Doubt I'll buy a new one, was looking at a 10 plate old shape 530, maybe or if I feel like pushing the boat out might get a 535, but doubt SWMBO will agree to that lol
Get a Merc, Paul, they're better. BMWs are for chavs! ;)
Marco.
Get a Merc, Paul, they're better. BMWs are for chavs! ;)
Marco.
Na too young to own a Merc Marco lol... Maybe I'll just get another Audi, really not sure yet lol
Hahaha... There are Mercs and there are MERCS..!! ;)
Marco.
Hehe - I do like the C Class, maybe I should take a look in a bit more detail :)
Just get a bloody Skoda Superb or summat, laugh your head off and spend the rest on a proper stereo :lol:
Get a Merc, Paul, they're better. BMWs are for chavs! ;)
Marco.
Mercs are for old men :lol:
MikeMusic
18-06-2013, 12:47
If my ancient Saab expires Mercs are on my list
<looks in mirror>
Ooh
:D
Mercs are for old men :lol:
Well, you should know, old chap! :lol:
Marco.
Just get a bloody Skoda Superb or summat, laugh your head off and spend the rest on a proper stereo :lol:
You could give him a ride on your mobility scooter!! :D
Marco.
Well, you should know, old chap! :lol:
:rfl:
dave2010
19-06-2013, 13:57
Dave,
I may be winding you up, but it is not my intention to do so.
OK. if you can really afford expensive kit that's great for you, and maybe some others round here can do so too. Yes, if the truth be told, I could also spend an unspecified amount over £10k on hi-fi kit, though I probably won't. A friend of mine did spend somewhere between £5-10k a few years ago, and I believe he's very happy with it. Until recently I'd have been scared to spend that much, and in any case I'd probably have nowhere to put it all, and little time to play any music.
My quess is that £10k should be enough for most people who can afford it, but what do I know? many people are struggling on less, and try to put together systems for around £1-2k, possibly using pre-owned kit.
Re UK retailers being good/bad, I think there are always going to be some good and some bad. Some total rip off merchants, and some who will struggle to make a living. Consumers aren't totally out of the loop either. How many go for demos and then actually buy from a cheaper outlet? Probably quite a lot of people do this. It's not fair, but it's not illegal, and if the mark up at the more expensive dealer runs into £00s then many will think that's fair game.
It may be that most reputable hi-fi dealers are good guys, though I wouldn't say this is true for the whole of the UK retail industry. Standards in the UK have generally improved, but 20 years ago the difference in customer service generally in the UK compared with CA, USA was abysmal. Seeing the difference really made me think about the John Cleese cheese shop, though perhaps many from the other side of the pond wouldn't get that either.
Lodgesound
19-06-2013, 14:51
Many years ago - when I was a trainee salesperson in a hifi and television shop - a high end local outlet in a well to do area I had a customer approach me.
He was dressed in dirty jeans, a ripped and paint-stained t-shirt but was polite and was interested in some very high end equipment.
I duly showed and demonstrated the equipment to him - whilst I was doing so my boss called me aside and asked what the hell I was doing wasting his time (meaning it was his shop) on someone who was so obviously a "pikey". I assume he reached this conclusion due to the dress of the customer concerned.
Anyway this happened WHILST I was dealing with the customer - I went back and he was firm but apologetic - he said that he would have bought 3 of the systems concerned that day as he needed 2 for his home and 1 for his chambers at the House of Lords - a total of around £6000 which in 1985 was one hell of a lot of money to spend on sound equipment. He said that due to the attitude of my boss he would not be dealing with us and left.
An abject lesson on many levels however even at the age of 18 and coming from a very averge background I was glad I could personally see through the way someone dressed!
In conclusion there is and I have encountered much snobbery in retail some of which has been mentioned in past threads here - I left the business within days of this happening with my boss actually telling me I was unlikely to amount to anything......I became a sound and video engineer first for Rank and then for the BBC.
I would never work in sales again but feel for those that do who have bosses that are basically ignorant towards other human beings. I can see both sides here but ultimately if you want to sell anything to any person the first step is mutual respect.
Be respectful and duly aware of your opponent - they may surprise you....
Spectral Morn
19-06-2013, 15:21
Many years ago - when I was a trainee salesperson in a hifi and television shop - a high end local outlet in a well to do area I had a customer approach me.
He was dressed in dirty jeans, a ripped and paint-stained t-shirt but was polite and was interested in some very high end equipment.
I duly showed and demonstrated the equipment to him - whilst I was doing so my boss called me aside and asked what the hell I was doing wasting his time (meaning it was his shop) on someone who was so obviously a "pikey". I assume he reached this conclusion due to the dress of the customer concerned.
Anyway this happened WHILST I was dealing with the customer - I went back and he was firm but apologetic - he said that he would have bought 3 of the systems concerned that day as he needed 2 for his home and 1 for his chambers at the House of Lords - a total of around £6000 which in 1985 was one hell of a lot of money to spend on sound equipment. He said that due to the attitude of my boss he would not be dealing with us and left.
An abject lesson on many levels however even at the age of 18 and coming from a very averge background I was glad I could personally see through the way someone dressed!
In conclusion there is and I have encountered much snobbery in retail some of which has been mentioned in past threads here - I left the business within days of this happening with my boss actually telling me I was unlikely to amount to anything......I became a sound and video engineer first for Rank and then for the BBC.
I would never work in sales again but feel for those that do who have bosses that are basically ignorant towards other human beings. I can see both sides here but ultimately if you want to sell anything to any person the first step is mutual respect.
Be respectful and duly aware of your opponent - they may surprise you....
Well said
Regards Neil
How many go for demos and then actually buy from a cheaper outlet?
That is simply unacceptable behaviour. If you go for a demo and you like what you hear, buy the equipment from that dealer. If you have no intention of buying from them, don't ask for a demo as you are stealing their consultancy!
Be respectful and duly aware of your opponent - they may surprise you....
Agreed - never go on looks as you may often be wrong and made to look a fool. If you start polite, the chances are they will treat you with more courtesy.
Hear, hear on the last three posts! :clap:
However, especially on this:
If you go for a demo and you like what you hear, buy the equipment from that dealer. If you have no intention of buying from them, don't ask for a demo as you are stealing their consultancy!
Spot on, Martin. It is extremely poor form to waste a dealer's time in that way, just to save a lousy few quid. Sorry, but I have no time for folk like that!! :nono:
Marco.
But this happened loads, especially for the dealers selling out-of-the-ordinary gear. It got worse as general business started to fall in the late 90's, as these oiks showed themselves up even more. Little did they know that many dealers in the same county kept records on these people and shared them with each other......
It might've happened loads, Dave, but there's no excuse for it. Anyone who does that sort of thing, IMO, is a low-life.
Marco.
Dave,
OK. if you can really afford expensive kit that's great for you, and maybe some others round here can do so too. Yes, if the truth be told, I could also spend an unspecified amount over £10k on hi-fi kit, though I probably won't. A friend of mine did spend somewhere between £5-10k a few years ago, and I believe he's very happy with it. Until recently I'd have been scared to spend that much, and in any case I'd probably have nowhere to put it all, and little time to play any music.
If you divide £10k by ten to fifteen years, you get to the kinds of levels you are talking about. I tend to keep core stuff. I might even dig out my old receipts and do a proper discounted cash flow to prove it to myself. (I'm sure I've forgotten the odd impulse purchase and only remember the good second hand sales, but I'd be surprised if I've averaged a grand a year, ignoring consumables.) I bought a Musical Fidelity E100/500/600 in the mid-nineties which I only sold last year, chopping the turntable half way through the period. Before that I had a system which had lasted me since 1979, with only a new turntable and CD player in addition. I'm expecting my current purchase to see me out.
My quess is that £10k should be enough for most people who can afford it, but what do I know? many people are struggling on less, and try to put together systems for around £1-2k, possibly using pre-owned kit.
Yes many people do. And there is great fun and use of imagination in putting something together on that kind of budget.
But you make some of my original point for me. I doubt that there are many retailers out there who get many people per week or month who want to spend a large amount of cash there and then. It seems crazy to behave in a way that turns them away. The debate here seems to suggest that it might be sloppiness, overwork, poor morale, whatever. But it seems to me that if that is the way they treat prospective paying punters, they might as well roll up the shutters and give up.
Re UK retailers being good/bad, I think there are always going to be some good and some bad. Some total rip off merchants, and some who will struggle to make a living. Consumers aren't totally out of the loop either. How many go for demos and then actually buy from a cheaper outlet? Probably quite a lot of people do this. It's not fair, but it's not illegal, and if the mark up at the more expensive dealer runs into £00s then many will think that's fair game.
I'm with you all the way on this, but I thought I knew who the good guys were - fora, reviews, word of mouth - and I was relaying my recent experience about people who have been recommended to me or for whom I was a returning customer (and no, I have never even set foot in KJ West One!). And, yes, it simply is not fair. It is not only hifi - taxpaying, employing, specialist bookshops are going to the wall all over the place because people browse there and the order through parasitical Amazon. If we do not actively work to keep specialist shops alive, by using them, taking advantage of their expertise and paying a whack for their costs through higher margins, we will lose them.
It may be that most reputable hi-fi dealers are good guys, though I wouldn't say this is true for the whole of the UK retail industry. Standards in the UK have generally improved, but 20 years ago the difference in customer service generally in the UK compared with CA, USA was abysmal. Seeing the difference really made me think about the John Cleese cheese shop, though perhaps many from the other side of the pond wouldn't get that either.
I think there is something in that. I have only ever had courtesy, good manners and a real interest when mooching around hifi stores in the US, even though there was clearly little chance of my lugging any 110v kit home with me! It is good salesmanship too, because I feel I should buy at least something as recompense for their time.
Maybe the difference is that Brits don't really want to do service, shops or hotels or restaurants. But that is a North European thing - the Scandis and Dutch seem much the same. When I am in France and Italy, it is really apparent how proud small shopkeepers are of their shops and their wares and really want to be there. There is no shame at all in being a retailer. I just do not get that sense here.
Peter
Just get a bloody Skoda Superb or summat, laugh your head off and spend the rest on a proper stereo :lol:
Oi, what ya saying about my current stereo???? lol
It might've happened loads, Dave, but there's no excuse for it. Anyone who does that sort of thing, IMO, is a low-life.
Marco.
Totally agree, you should not waist a dealers time if you have no intention (or appropriate funds available) to buy.
dave2010
19-06-2013, 21:54
It might've happened loads, Dave, but there's no excuse for it. Anyone who does that sort of thing, IMO, is a low-life.
Marco.Trouble is you shouldn't go around assuming that everyone is low life if they behave in ways of which you do not approve. We have seen what has been happening to CD and record outlets over the last few years. Dealers have tried to whip up campaigns for "support your local record store", but all to no avail. Amost everybody buys from Amazon or similar now, as there's nowhere else to go. i used to enjoy going into record stores, and indeed still do, but there are hardly any to go to now. Even worse, CDs etc. are being replaced by downloads - no retail outlets there.
Audio dealers can rail against the behaviour of the public, but it seems to me that unless a dealer really does provide what is perceived by his or her customer base to be very good service, then many will simply go out of business. There is little point in moaning about it, or complaining about people's behaviour - it may just happen anyway.
I hope the better ones survive, but so much of modern "life" is based on brute force economics, and there's very little "morality" to it at all. If there is an upturn in the economy things may change for the better, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
Best wishes
Hi Dave,
Trouble is you shouldn't go around assuming that everyone is low life if they behave in ways of which you do not approve.
Well, that's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. I abhor such selfish (and dishonest) behaviour, on the same level as I would someone who found a wallet lying on the ground with £200 in cash inside, and simply kept it, rather than handing it in at the nearest police station. By treating a dealer in the way that was outlined earlier, you've just mugged him, too!
As for the rest of your points, fair enough, but remember that the general public's obsession with paying the lowest price über alles is one of the major reasons why traditional high street shopping is all but a thing of the past!! ;)
People's selfishness and short-sightedness (failing to see the bigger picture) never ceases to amaze me....
Marco.
dave2010
20-06-2013, 04:20
Hi Dave,
Well, that's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. I abhor such selfish (and dishonest) behaviour, on the same level as I would someone who found a wallet lying on the ground with £200 in cash inside, and simply kept it, rather than handing it in at the nearest police station.
As for the rest of your points, fair enough, but remember that the general public's obsession with paying the lowest price über alles is one of the major reasons why traditional high street shopping is all but a thing of the past!! ;)
You certainly are entitled to your opinion. However how do you suggest anyone who genuinely looks around for kit in different dealers should behave? Are you expecting that they should buy gear from all of them? Sometimes other factors come in too, such as supply. I once heard kit from two different outlets, and in the end having decided what to buy went to the shop I preferred. Didn't work out though, as there was no stock available, so we still went back to the cheaper one. Perhaps you don't think customers should even consider visiting more than one supplier.
Re honesty, we were very surprised while driving round California - we lived there for a while. I lost my wallet with money and credit cards at a gas station. Technically I probably shouldn't even have driven then, as it is an offence to drive without a licence. However, it was the weekend, and no chance of getting a replacement licence or carrying out the bureaucratic procedures to deal with the situation. When we got back home after our several hundred mile weekend trip, we found a message on our answering machine from people who'd found the wallet. I was amazed that anyone would do that. They very kindly posted it back to me, and most of the problems were solved, and I don't think they even wanted anything for their trouble. It's a while now, so i can't tremember all the details - I may have cancelled the credit cards, so had to wait for new ones. It never occurred to me before that anyone would be that helpful, and it made us feel really good to know that there are people who are so honest and also helpful. Merely handing the wallet in to the police would have been honest, but not necessarily the most helpful.
I would have no problem with a dealer charging for demos, perhaps with a refund against purchases, to avoid some of the issues you raise.
Re the High Street - I think moaning about the changes in the way people operate isn't going to stop the trend. I'm sad that our nearest independent record shop - funded largely by the Moody Blues - closed a couple of years ago, but even though I did buy CDs there, obviously not enough to keep it open. I think the nearest one of its type is now in Godalming, though HMV is still struggling in other locations.
The "High Street" wasn't all good. I don't miss having to waste time in banks. Not only having to go into them, but also to wait at lunch time because some banks used to be so badly managed that at lunchtime, when most "ordinary" people went in to do business, several cashiers were on lunch breaks, so the operations weren't even running to full capacity.
Trying to hold back change is about as likely to succeed as Canute holding the sea back.
julesd68
20-06-2013, 09:21
Trying to hold back change is about as likely to succeed as Canute holding the sea back.
Indeed. But you can sometimes ask yourself whether you want to be part of that change.
A case in point, my local video store has just closed after 30 years of trading. It has come to its natural end as streaming takes over and yes, there is nothing you can do about that. I stopped renting from them a couple of years ago on the premise that using Lovefilm would be cheaper and easier to rent blu-rays and dvd's. Well it wasn't either of those two things. I worked out that keeping two films that we just never got round to watching cost us about £130 in monthly fees. I always returned my dvds on time to the local video store to not pay extra costs. Looking back I wish I had tried to help a local business keep going for a little longer, rather than fill the coffers of Lovefilm.
I also remember going to a lovely independent book store in Kentish Town last year for my son to choose some books. I felt so sorry for the salesman having to deal with a woman whom he had spent time helping, only for her to say - "I'll have to see if it's cheaper on Amazon first". That really pissed me off - of course it will be f-kin cheaper on Amazon - you are paying the RRP to have the right to browse and get advice - if price is your determing factor just shop on-line, why waste the guy's time like that? They must get it constantly. Luckily the shop is still there so they must be doing something right.
I also remember going to a lovely independent book store in Kentish Town last year for my son to choose some books. I felt so sorry for the salesman having to deal with a woman whom he had spent time helping, only for her to say - "I'll have to see if it's cheaper on Amazon first". That really pissed me off - of course it will be f-kin cheaper on Amazon - you are paying the RRP to have the right to browse and get advice - if price is your determing factor just shop on-line, why waste the guy's time like that?
Spot on, Julian! That situation typifies the behaviour I detest and was trying to explain to Dave.
In hi-fi terms, it would be the equivalent of arranging a demo at a dealer's premises of, say, an amplifier, and wasting two hours of his time having the product demonstrated, only to buy said amplifier later on ebay for £50 less, after having abused the dealer's facilities, just because it fulfilled your selfish ends... Honestly, I'd strangle idiots like that (metaphorically speaking), as they epitomise what I hate about today's superficial price-driven society, where seemingly ALL that matters is the 'bottom line'.
However, Dave, I'm not accusing you of doing that. What you outlined earlier clearly indicates that you're not guilty of the type of odious behaviour I was referring to, so on that front you can relax! ;)
As for the decline and decimation of the traditional high street, due to the rise of Internet shopping, don't get me started on that one. Of course moaning won't change anything, but when you feel strongly about something, it's difficult not to. I loved it when town centres were full of individual, family-run, shops (butchers, fruiterers, fishmongers, bakers, etc), rather than the 'ghost towns', in comparison (populated by 'Pound shops' and charity shops), which we largely see now, due firstly to the arrival of out-of-town supermarkets, and subsequently, the Internet. That's what you end up with when you continually chase the lowest price, and trade quality for convenience.
Maybe you're quite happy sitting in front of a computer, clicking a mouse, when doing your shopping (and also your living in London will likely be why you have a different perspective on this from me), but I resist that temptation as much as possible and still enjoy the experience of using REAL shops and interacting with REAL people in a town centre, even if that experience costs a little more. In fact, I will go out of my way, if necessary, to shop in places that offer me the best possible quality products and customer service, even if what I'm buying costs a few quid more.
As an example, I buy local produce, where possible, from farmer's markets, and couldn't give a shit if Asda, or some other supermarket, were offering 'buy one, get one free', on, say, their fresh produce, and said supermarket was on my doorstep. I would still rather drive ten minutes further to get the superior produce I wanted from independent retailers, simply because quality, ultimately (and that's the key word here), matters more to me than price, and I believe passionately in supporting the 'little guy'.
Now I wonder where we'd be today in this country if more people had endorsed my mentality at the beginning?
Marco.
I felt so sorry for the salesman having to deal with a woman whom he had spent time helping, only for her to say - "I'll have to see if it's cheaper on Amazon first".
That's appalling. I'd have told her to f*ck off out of the shop and buy it from them then. Probably, only I'm too polite. Unlike her.
Me too! Sadly, Martin, those are the types of tossers you're dealing with these days... :rolleyes:
Marco.
dave2010
20-06-2013, 17:33
A few things - I like the observation about Lovefilm. We've spent £00s in recent years by continuing to be members and we hardly ever watch any new things. It would indeed have been cheaper to rent locally, if we'd had anywhere to rent from.
I do appreciate quality, and sometimes I'm prepared to pay for it. That's why I have several iMacs and a Macbook Pro. The last PC type machine I bought was 2008/9.
I have also been to some expensive opera in the last year or so, having at last decided we can afford it.
I'll come back to the notion about buying audio gear year on year, and in what to some might be modest tranches of money.
Lastly, for this post, yes I do live relatively near London - though not actually in it. I have, and have had, relatives who lived further North - where I was dragged up. Many of them could afford decent houses with low mortgages, which left them money over for decent holidays, decent audio, whatever. In the SE many people notionally have higher incomes, and a decent standard of living, but many have hardly anything left over for "good stuff" - except the super rich, of course.
I do appreciate quality, and sometimes I'm prepared to pay for it. That's why I have several iMacs and a Macbook Pro.
Sorry, Dave, you probably won't appreciate the irony in that statement, but I couldn't help giggling!! :D
Marco.
I do appreciate quality, and sometimes I'm prepared to pay for it. That's why I have several iMacs and a Macbook Pro.
LOL - if only you knew our relative failure rate between Macs and PCs. Never mind, as you were...
Figlet108
20-06-2013, 18:01
So to throw in my 2 pence.
First, on movie rental.
If you care about getting the best quality home movie experience then the current quality of streaming is a disaster. It's more compressed (both picture and sound) and horrible compared to a physical BD disk from Blockbuster. There's no point spending £thousands on top HT kit just for compromised st(r)eaming crapness. Luckily my local Blockbuster is still alive and I pray it stays that way, at least until streaming services don't compromise quality (fingers crossed for Red Ray).
Second, buying music online.
Sorry folks but for me buying music or movies (or even books) on the high street is a super tedious experience that I frankly can't be bothered with any more. I hear something I like, usually on spotify or somewhere that I Shazam, and I can audition it, read reviews about it and have it ordered at the cheapest price to be delivered to my door (without me having to wait in for it) without having to go into town and wander around an overcrowded HMV hunting around on rows and rows of shelves. Same for movies, same for books.
Fact is, for these kinds of items the high street is not fit for purpose any more compared to the internet. Yeah, it's all sad blah blah, but time to move on, the world's changing and in this regard much for the better.
And now the obligatory smilie to make sure no one takes me too seriously, just my opinion :D
Lol... If Dave had qualified that statement instead with:
"I do appreciate quality, and sometimes I'm prepared to pay for it. That's why I have several Mercs and many cases of Château Mouton Rothschild."
...then I'd have been with him! :exactly:
:D
Marco.
Alan Sircom
20-06-2013, 18:07
Trouble is you shouldn't go around assuming that everyone is low life if they behave in ways of which you do not approve. We have seen what has been happening to CD and record outlets over the last few years. Dealers have tried to whip up campaigns for "support your local record store", but all to no avail. Amost everybody buys from Amazon or similar now, as there's nowhere else to go. i used to enjoy going into record stores, and indeed still do, but there are hardly any to go to now. Even worse, CDs etc. are being replaced by downloads - no retail outlets there.
Audio dealers can rail against the behaviour of the public, but it seems to me that unless a dealer really does provide what is perceived by his or her customer base to be very good service, then many will simply go out of business. There is little point in moaning about it, or complaining about people's behaviour - it may just happen anyway.
I hope the better ones survive, but so much of modern "life" is based on brute force economics, and there's very little "morality" to it at all. If there is an upturn in the economy things may change for the better, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
Best wishes
This is part of the reason why so many dealers are now turning to a smaller and more select range of products in their stores. If you stock some lines, you are a free demonstration service for the internet. If you stock others, the prices are more or less the same whether online or in store.
This has a downside of sending an already upwardly spiralling set of prices in store even higher, because once you get above certain price points, people tend not to buy online and the online traders tend not to bother stocking and discounting these lines.
The successful audio dealer in 2013 - and they do exist - is stocking fewer products that generally cost more, and providing a service the rival cannot easily supply. The downside is it means you likely pay a premium for that service.
Second, buying music online.
Sorry folks but for me buying music or movies (or even books) on the high street is a super tedious experience that I frankly can't be bothered with any more. I hear something I like, usually on spotify or somewhere that I Shazam, and I can audition it, read reviews about it and have it ordered at the cheapest price to be delivered to my door (without me having to wait in for it) without having to go into town and wander around an overcrowded HMV hunting around on rows and rows of shelves. Same for movies, same for books.
Fact is, for these kinds of items the high street is not fit for purpose any more compared to the internet. Yeah, it's all sad blah blah, but time to move on, the world's changing and in this regard much for the better.
Lol... I'm not surprised you hold that view, especially as someone who doesn't value the qualities of physical music media and the process of selecting it. Of course, I strongly disagree, on a number of levels (especially with that you've written in your last sentence), but different opinions are what make the world go round! :)
Marco.
Figlet108
20-06-2013, 18:14
...especially as someone who doesn't value the qualities of physical...
Marco.
Yeah, you see the physical is so constrained - I'm patiently waiting for everyone else in the world to catch up with me and transcend the physical. If you lot were at my level of telepathy I wouldn't have had to waste my precious time typing this... (where's the smug and pretentious smilie)
Hehehehe... :eyebrows:
Marco.
dave2010
20-06-2013, 18:25
Lol... If Dave had qualified that statement instead with:
"I do appreciate quality, and sometimes I'm prepared to pay for it. That's why I have several Mercs and many cases of Château Mouton Rothschild."
...then I'd have been with him! :exactly:
:D
Marco.I was afraid of that!
This is part of the reason why so many dealers are now turning to a smaller and more select range of products in their stores. If you stock some lines, you are a free demonstration service for the internet. If you stock others, the prices are more or less the same whether online or in store.
This has a downside of sending an already upwardly spiralling set of prices in store even higher, because once you get above certain price points, people tend not to buy online and the online traders tend not to bother stocking and discounting these lines.
The successful audio dealer in 2013 - and they do exist - is stocking fewer products that generally cost more, and providing a service the rival cannot easily supply. The downside is it means you likely pay a premium for that service.
Alan,
I think we are all mostly violently agreeing.
It's basic economics that a bricks and mortar shop carrying slower moving stock requires more margin than some online box shifter, and it is made worse if the box shifter isn't paying tax and NI and VAT etc. So the shop must, as you suggest, offer added value.
I am probably preaching to the choir, given the number of pishanto enthusiasts here and it might be a function of my age but I just can't get my head round the kind of planned obsolescence that is built in to what used to be called consumer durables. The kind of kit which seems to conk out just after the warranty period - radios, irons, laptops, tvs etc. And nobody seems willing to mend things any more. It is so depressingly wasteful. Why should I throw out a three year old TV because it is apparently beyond economic repair and there is no guarantee it won't conk out again within a year? It's mad.
What is being sold nowadays which is engineered as bombproof as a Garrard 401 or an old Roberts radio? There is some stuff, Naim, SME, Michell etc but it is costly. But I'd rather pay a bit more for something well-made and long-lasting and for the reassurance that if something goes wrong the shop and manufacturer will "own" the problem and rectify it. A relationship with the dealer matters to me (but that often constrains what kit you can buy). Or, of course, pay less and buy good quality second-hand.
Peter
I am probably preaching to the choir, given the number of pishanto enthusiasts here and it might be a function of my age but I just can't get my head round the kind of planned obsolescence that is built in to what used to be called consumer durables. The kind of kit which seems to conk out just after the warranty period - radios, irons, laptops, tvs etc. And nobody seems willing to mend things any more. It is so depressingly wasteful. Why should I throw out a three year old TV because it is apparently beyond economic repair and there is no guarantee it won't conk out again within a year? It's mad.
Hear, hear... That's today's superficial-thinking disposable society for you!!! :doh:
We've got a 13-year old Sony CRT television, and it'll be going nowhere until it gives up the ghost, as I refuse to dispose of a TV that is working perfectly well, and buy a flat screen thingy, just to be, erm, 'current'! :nono:
What's happened to trying to reduce one's carbon footprint? We should all be encouraged to recycle MORE and 'go green'!!!
Marco.
julesd68
20-06-2013, 18:45
I am probably preaching to the choir, given the number of pishanto enthusiasts here and it might be a function of my age but I just can't get my head round the kind of planned obsolescence that is built in to what used to be called consumer durables. The kind of kit which seems to conk out just after the warranty period - radios, irons, laptops, tvs etc. And nobody seems willing to mend things any more. It is so depressingly wasteful. Why should I throw out a three year old TV because it is apparently beyond economic repair and there is no guarantee it won't conk out again within a year? It's mad.
My 2008 iMac which cost me around £1300 lasted less than 4 years, only for Apple to tell me it was 'unrepairable' as the motherboard had gone. I think it's outrageous. Of course there was nothing I could do about it.
Figlet108
20-06-2013, 19:19
Completely agree Julian, it's very annoying, lazy waste.
For the past 7 years I've been using Mac Book Pros that I rescue from the recycle bins at work and cobble together.
I don't quite understand how motherboards in Macs seem to die more often and more quickly than in PCs when frankly they are made in the same factories with mostly identical parts...
Another trick is to buy broken stuff from ebay and cobble them together - e.g. a Samsung Galaxy with broken internals because someone dropped it in water but whose screen works fine, and another Samsung Galaxy whose internals are fine but with a cracked screen...
Gordon Steadman
20-06-2013, 19:44
The Mac thing has changed completely. Whilst I will still use them because I prefer them, the way they are built has definitely changed. They look fantastic of course and that is still a large part of their attraction as with all well designed gear. However my first Mac lasted me 15 years. I have updated regularly since and now have a small graveyard upstairs that I rob of bits and pieces occasionally. Very disappointing that such class industrial design is no longer backed up with the build quality.
A common tale sadly, when I compare my car with the Alfas I used to run, its rubbish. And we are talking Alfas here which have never had a good reputation for longevity. My old Leak and 57's!! 1960's and still going strong. Many more modern machines have come and died.
Such is life it seems. I have always said that I would rather have two or three quality items than a house full of cheap tat and that is still true... if only you can find the quality.
I no longer shop on the hight street because I don't have one out here!!! Also, because my financial situation is not what it was, the opportunity to buy stuff comes only occasionally. So, sadly, I do use the internet, not from choice but necessity now. I'm not convinced that its just British retail though, I see the same signs everywhere I have been.
I feel like an old man (true) bemoaning that life isn't what it used to be. True of course as it always changes but who can tell if its really for the better or not.
Alan Sircom
20-06-2013, 20:26
Alan,
I think we are all mostly violently agreeing.
It's basic economics that a bricks and mortar shop carrying slower moving stock requires more margin than some online box shifter, and it is made worse if the box shifter isn't paying tax and NI and VAT etc. So the shop must, as you suggest, offer added value.
I am probably preaching to the choir, given the number of pishanto enthusiasts here and it might be a function of my age but I just can't get my head round the kind of planned obsolescence that is built in to what used to be called consumer durables. The kind of kit which seems to conk out just after the warranty period - radios, irons, laptops, tvs etc. And nobody seems willing to mend things any more. It is so depressingly wasteful. Why should I throw out a three year old TV because it is apparently beyond economic repair and there is no guarantee it won't conk out again within a year? It's mad.
What is being sold nowadays which is engineered as bombproof as a Garrard 401 or an old Roberts radio? There is some stuff, Naim, SME, Michell etc but it is costly. But I'd rather pay a bit more for something well-made and long-lasting and for the reassurance that if something goes wrong the shop and manufacturer will "own" the problem and rectify it. A relationship with the dealer matters to me (but that often constrains what kit you can buy). Or, of course, pay less and buy good quality second-hand.
Peter
Peter,
That's the odd thing about hi-fi. A lot of it is still built for longevity and is often repairable, and that's frequently met with a blank stare from people who have grown up with the idea of something 18 months old being 17 months out of date and reliability means it survives a week longer than its warranty.
The audio business often gets flak from traditional buyers for changing products for the sake of change, but increasingly if the products aren't changed frequently, they die on the vine. Sometimes, this need for change does deliver better products, if the company knows how to run its R&D cycles properly. Sometimes, it doesn't.
Alan
Ali Tait
20-06-2013, 20:28
The Mac thing has changed completely. Whilst I will still use them because I prefer them, the way they are built has definitely changed. They look fantastic of course and that is still a large part of their attraction as with all well designed gear. However my first Mac lasted me 15 years. I have updated regularly since and now have a small graveyard upstairs that I rob of bits and pieces occasionally. Very disappointing that such class industrial design is no longer backed up with the build quality.
A common tale sadly, when I compare my car with the Alfas I used to run, its rubbish. And we are talking Alfas here which have never had a good reputation for longevity. My old Leak and 57's!! 1960's and still going strong. Many more modern machines have come and died.
Such is life it seems. I have always said that I would rather have two or three quality items than a house full of cheap tat and that is still true... if only you can find the quality.
I no longer shop on the hight street because I don't have one out here!!! Also, because my financial situation is not what it was, the opportunity to buy stuff comes only occasionally. So, sadly, I do use the internet, not from choice but necessity now. I'm not convinced that its just British retail though, I see the same signs everywhere I have been.
I feel like an old man (true) bemoaning that life isn't what it used to be. True of course as it always changes but who can tell if its really for the better or not.
Aye, that's why I keep my 164 and 166. Great cars and totally reliable.
dave2010
20-06-2013, 22:26
My 2008 iMac which cost me around £1300 lasted less than 4 years, only for Apple to tell me it was 'unrepairable' as the motherboard had gone. I think it's outrageous. Of course there was nothing I could do about it.I agree, though I don't know how much use you had out of your machine. For the past 20 or so years I've been using different machines for hours per day, and hopefully earning a crust that way. That's probably only about £1 per day even with the equivalent of your £1300 iMac, and the pay cheque at the end of each month has been a couple of orders of magnitude greater. If these machines were simply luxury items, and not tools, then I'd find them harder to justify. Maybe you were just unlucky, though it does sound as though others have had problems too.
I have a number of old pocket watches , some well over 100 years old and still keep pretty decnt time...(within a couple of miutes a day...craftmanship is fantastic and if you could find someone to make one of these now it would cost the earth.
things were made to be repairable and to last in the good old days...
My old gran put it this way...BUY CHEAP, BUY TWICE
Lol... If I'd had time, I'd have ....
There is an extraordinarily good technique for getting shop assistant's attention. All you have to do is lean over the counter and push some buttons on the till. With any luck it will open! This is a sound the buggers are highly attuned to - you know like we can tell the difference between a viola and a violin. The ringing of the till or the sound of it opening can be heard by shop assistants from deep in the smoko room, over conversations with their boy/girl friends, even from the within a closed toilet. Even those that begrudge walking will actually run. Their palpable relief on seeing that you are not stuffing your shirt-pockets with fivers sets up an amicable business relationship.
I have to say, I'm not a fan of these 'grumpy old git' type threads where everything is in terminal decline and the past was a rosy utopia. I genuinely can't remember the last time I went in to a shop and the staff weren't helpful and attentive. Of course there are occasions when this has not been the case, but this has been the exception rather than the rule.
I have to say, I'm not a fan of these 'grumpy old git' type threads where everything is in terminal decline and the past was a rosy utopia. I genuinely can't remember the last time I went in to a shop and the staff weren't helpful and attentive. Of course there are occasions when this has not been the case, but this has been the exception rather than the rule.
If the staff were that bad in retail (I worked in it for 10 years) then the high street would be in even worse decline, it isn't that bad considering. Often things are blown out of all proportion, one person suffers a bad experience and everyone comes out of the woodwork to say once in 1986 they had a similar thing happen, we should be supporting retailers as I personally like to go to a store now and then, the web is faceless and impersonal, yes it's convenient but you cannot quiz staff on their knowledge over the web can you!
Hi Mark,
Perhaps you don't like the types of discussions you mention because some of the points raised make you think about things you'd rather not think about?
No-one's saying that 'the good old days' were perfect (far from it) but, in my opinion, elements of how we lived our lives then were more satisfying than is the situation today. As usual, it's the extremes of anything that are the problem, and in that respect, we've become too dependent today on computers running our lives, and the retail environment we live in has largely become victim of our seemingly insatiable desire for low cost and convenience.
Anyway, whilst not wishing to dwell on this subject any further, I myself find it fascinating when these types of discussions provide an insight into how others lead their lives and the values that they have and consider are important. I like to get to know what makes people tick! ;)
Marco.
Hi Mark,
Perhaps you don't like the types of discussions you mention because some of the points raised make you think about things you'd rather not think about? It's more that I find such musings pointless and futile.
Erm no, not at all - in fact I haven't got a clue what those 'things' might be that I would rather not be thinking about (I am content with the past - my past at least).
...the retail environment we live in has largely become victim of our seemingly insatiable desire for low cost and convenience.
Retail, by nature, is a reflection of what the customer (as a whole) wants.
I like to get to know what makes people tick! ;)
I wouldn't look to a future in psychoanalysis just yet ;).
If the staff were that bad in retail (I worked in it for 10 years) then the high street would be in even worse decline, it isn't that bad considering. Often things are blown out of all proportion, one person suffers a bad experience and everyone comes out of the woodwork to say once in 1986 they had a similar thing happen, we should be supporting retailers as I personally like to go to a store now and then, the web is faceless and impersonal, yes it's convenient but you cannot quiz staff on their knowledge over the web can you!
I think the thread is more nuanced than that:
1. Most here agree that there are very good retailers around and it was ever thus
2. Most agree that there are some poor retailers around and it was ever thus
3. Many are worried about the drive to the bottom with kit being treated more or less as disposable after a very short life
4. Anyone who remembers the typical 60s or 70s High Street, the Austin Allegro or Morris Marina does not look lovingly back to a universal golden age of British manufacturing or retail. I can certainly remember snooty sales assistants as well as genuinely knowledgeable and helpful staff, but all of them would at least have the courtesy to answer if you asked a question.
5. Many are worried about the future of the good dealers because of t'interweb and many are talking to our responsibility to do right by these vendors if we value their service and want to see them survive
6. But, where this thread started was out of a sense of bewilderment that several hifi retailers today could not be arsed (for whatever reason) to reply to genuine sales enquiries.
I, for one, think that many things have got much better and have no desire to experience a "Life on Mars" moment. I also believe that the web is generally a force for progress (e.g places like this where skills and knowledge can be shared easily), but while it is disruptive we risk losing skills and expertise until things swing back and punters realise that it is not a substitute for everything. We should then see a move back to bricks and mortar for certain sectors.
Peter
What will happen to shoplifters when all the shops have gone?
What will happen to shoplifters when all the shops have gone?
The scumbags have already started diversifying and moving with the times - they are becoming fraudsters and phishers who steal from the comfort of their living rooms - look at the frauds on eBay/Gumtree threads...
P
Retail, by nature, is a reflection of what the customer (as a whole) wants.
Yes, but it only reflects the wants of the majority of the general public, i.e. 'Joe Bloggs'. The majority of customers are rarely the most discerning. Do you consider yourself a member of the majority, or are you a more discerning individual, keen to plough his own path and not simply follow the herd?
I'm certainly the latter, and so distance myself as far as possible from the choices of the majority, and its impact on my lifestyle.
wouldn't look to a future in psychoanalysis just yet
Lol... The fact is, these types of discussions give one a far greater insight into what makes others tick than any amount of waffling about hi-fi! ;)
Marco.
So what have we gleaned thus far on this thread.
Has Peter had any redress for his non replies?
People vote with they feet, if a business gives quality service and delivers the goods with a high customer after-sales I suspect they will be in business for some time to come (providing they keep abreast of the trends and times)
Can't say i miss city centre shopping.
I welcome ebay,amazon over going into a soulless city centre.
It's the small local high street individual shops that i'd miss.
These places are very important for communities as much as the service they give.
Anyone who remembers the typical 60s or 70s High Street, the Austin Allegro or Morris Marina does not look lovingly back to a universal golden age of British manufacturing or retail.
Hi Peter,
I'm with you fully on the British Leyland thing, but the rest of what you describe above is alien to me. Perhaps it's a north/south divide thing?
During the 70s and 80s, I grew up in a small village in Scotland, in the outskirts of Glasgow, and the high street then used to consist of many family run small businesses, from butchers to bakers and all sorts in between (ironmongers, cobblers, fishmongers - you name it), including my father's fish and chip shop.
I have fond memories, during the early 70s of my mother taking me shopping with her, where she utilised the services of each premises (all offering the highest standards of quality), depending on her specific needs, chatting happily to the owners of the shops and other customers, as she went about her business, and there was a real sense of community.
Fast forward to 2013 and NONE of those businesses still exist, excluding my father's fish and chip shop, which is now owned by someone else, as he retired some time ago.
However, it's virtually the only shop now that isn't an Asian-owned 'mini-market', a 'Pound shop' (selling tasteless tat to folk who create a need for such), charity shop or a laundrette. People hardly make eye contact with each other now, as they're too busy running around like headless chickens, with no time to do anything much but breathe. The sense of community has been lost, along with all those high-quality, family-run businesses that once served the community so well, and which have now been replaced by a soulless 'ghost town'.
It would certainly take the most uniquely optimistic of outlooks to consider the above as representing 'progress'!! :doh:
The problem is that people are quite happy to alienate themselves from it all, from the safety of their computers and the convenience of the Internet, and pretend that what I've described above hasn't happened (or isn't happening) to their town. Or worse, they are blissfully unaware of the reality, as their insular, 'virtual' existence, cocoons them from such, as does their preoccupation with working themselves into an early grave - and for me, that's no way to live.
Marco.
It's the small local high street individual shops that i'd miss.
These places are very important for communities as much as the service they give.
Spot on, and that's exactly what I'm referring to, but is sadly in terminal decline! :clap:
Marco
So what have we gleaned thus far on this thread.
Has Peter had any redress for his non replies?
People vote with they feet, if a business gives quality service and delivers the goods with a high customer after-sales I suspect they will be in business for some time to come (providing they keep abreast of the trends and times)
Mr C,
Thanks. I don't need redress. I've just voted with my feet. It's all I can do. I'm really not going to beg people to deal with me. I don't even think I owe them feedback, which I think I would if I had become their customer.
I suppose I could send the parties in question a link to this thread and tell them: "Hey chaps - this is you I am talking about." I didn't think it would be fair to name them here, but others could have been less discreet. I suspect that there might be more traction in telling the bricks and mortar owners that their staff are putting paying punters off, assuming that they (the owners) do not deal with queries directly, but my contact with the other two was with the principals. They will already know what they are not doing.
What do you all think?
Peter
MikeMusic
21-06-2013, 10:11
Mr C,
Thanks. I don't need redress. I've just voted with my feet. It's all I can do. I'm really not going to beg people to deal with me. I don't even think I owe them feedback, which I think I would if I had become their customer.
I suppose I could send the parties in question a link to this thread and tell them: "Hey chaps - this is you I am talking about." I didn't think it would be fair to name them here, but others could have been less discreet. I suspect that there might be more traction in telling the bricks and mortar owners that their staff are putting paying punters off, assuming that they (the owners) do not deal with queries directly, but my contact with the other two was with the principals. They will already know what they are not doing.
What do you all think?
Peter
If it were my business I'd be horrified / gutted / decimated plus more grim things.
Generally I find all (most) the people in the business reflect the owner or management.
It's a natural thing to happen
If you speak to the owner and see him/her go grey and slump or similar body language then they care.
If they BS you in marketing speak walk away
Hi Peter,
I'm with you fully on the British Leyland thing, but the rest of what you describe above is alien to me. Perhaps it's a north/south divide thing?
During the 70s and 80s, I grew up in a small village in Scotland, in the outskirts of Glasgow, and the high street then used to consist of many family run small businesses, from butchers to bakers and all sorts in between (ironmongers, cobblers, fishmongers - you name it), including my father's fish and chip shop.
I have fond memories, during the early 70s of my mother taking me shopping with her, where she utilised the services of each premises (all offering the highest standards of quality), depending on her specific needs, chatting happily to the owners of the shops and other customers, as she went about her business, and there was a real sense of community.
Fast forward to 2013 and NONE of those businesses still exist, excluding my father's fish and chip shop, which is now owned by someone else, as he retired some time ago.
However, it's virtually the only shop now that isn't an Asian-owned 'mini-market', a 'Pound shop' (selling tasteless tat to folk who create a need for such), charity shop or a laundrette. People hardly make eye contact with each other now, as they're too busy running around like headless chickens, with no time to do anything much but breathe. The sense of community has been lost, along with all those high-quality, family-run businesses that once served the community so well, and which have now been replaced by a soulless 'ghost town'.
It would certainly take the most uniquely optimistic of outlooks to consider the above as representing 'progress'!!
Marco.
Marco,
I know what you mean and it might well be a North/South or even England/Scotland thing. I have in-laws from Cullen and I remember well all the small businesses with pleasure although those who do not rely on tourism do seem to be dying on their feet. But I don't fully recognise your description of now at least as far as my neck of London is concerned. Where I live is mixed with some large estates nearby but a significant amount of gentrification. The local shops rely more on the former than the latter who tend to get Ocado deliveries or shop elsewhere. Of course, this is London, so there is probably a much larger client base than where you describe, but it is not typically awash with cash.
I think we are seeing evolution and adaptation: Yes, we have lost the immediately local butcher but I have four within a mile. The local bakery went a decade ago but I must say it made Greggs look like a classy French patisserie:), and several others survive within the mile. Our local Costcutter is run by a Turkish family and they are friendly, price competitive and open all hours. We have a Cypriot barber and garage and a Kurdish dry cleaner. The cafe is run by a Polish lady, our vet is German.
The common denominator (apart from not being native Brits) is that all put in very long hours, give really good customer service and care about their businesses. They compete with the big concerns by being convenient and providing superior service. So Costcutter will make a point of stocking things if asked, the cafe serves something better than the warmed over dishwater its predecessor used to do, the vet's consulting hours accommodate people who have to go out to work etc. As a result they can make decent if not spectacular livings.
Needless to say, I make a point of regularly using their services, because they keep the community alive, and I like being able to pop out in my jimjams for fags or milk at eleven at night:lol:.
But I readily accept that this might be possible in London and other very big cities in a way that economics could not allow elsewhere.
Peter
dave2010
21-06-2013, 10:44
things were made to be repairable and to last in the good old days...
My old gran put it this way...BUY CHEAP, BUY TWICEAha ... That's why some people have gold plated abacuses or mahogany framed slates with ornamental veneer I suppose! :lol:
If it were my business I'd be horrified / gutted / decimated plus more grim things.
Generally I find all (most) the people in the business reflect the owner or management.
It's a natural thing to happen
If you speak to the owner and see him/her go grey and slump or similar body language then they care.
If they BS you in marketing speak walk away
Mike,
Thanks.
Perhaps I shall give them a call. It's all very well moaning but, putting myself in their shoes, I'd hope that somebody would tell me if anyone working for me was behaving in this way (although I'd like to think I had enough of a handle on my business that I'd know already!).
Peter
MikeMusic
21-06-2013, 11:04
Report back. Be good to know what they say
Report back. Be good to know what they say
OK - Time hanging heavily on my hands this morning - I've got my VAT return to do..
So I thought "no time like the present", and here is an update
1st store -
I get to the manager after a bit of faffing about explaining what it concerns to the person who answers the phone
Very polite. Listens to what I have to say. Explain that he has lost the sale but thought he should know in case he was being let down. Says nothing substantive, but he is concerned, and apologises for my getting that impression of his shop. Will look into it and call me back. He was courteous and seemed to take what I said seriously.
Long and short, I could not realistically expect anything more from this conversation. I'll update as and when I get the call back. But I think I'll get called back.
2nd store -
Twenty rings, no answer. (OK probably short-staffed and busy with a punter, but still...)
Try again. Phone answered.
Manager not available.
May I leave a message and get him to call me back. Not urgent but I'd like to speak to him.
Could I try later instead?
No, I'd like to leave a message. He'll know when he's free to speak to me.
Grudging acceptance, phone put down to find a pen.
Give my name and number. Am an existing customer (You should have my details in your customer database - you regularly send me a newsletter). BTW, won't he want to know what is is about?
Oh all right.
I'd like to make a complaint about customer service.
OK. I'll ask him to call you back.
Let's see, but I'm not holding my breath...It might be unfair but Harry Enfield's Kevin the teenager's interactions with his parents came vividly to mind during this exchange.
I'll keep you posted.
Peter
MikeMusic
21-06-2013, 12:21
Well there *could* be a good company lurking in there somewhere
I wouldn't put money on it though
I have my Vat return quite nicely under control now, wasn't always the case.........
Well there *could* be a good company lurking in there somewhere
I wouldn't put money on it though We'll see. But the lack of helpful and efficient phone handling does not augur well. Any manager can hear how that is going if he's on the shop floor.
I have my Vat return quite nicely under control now, wasn't always the case.........
I suppose it is a nice problem to have these days, so I don't curse too hard. I have a spreadsheet which does most of the final calcs for me, but I still dislike doing it, hence the procrastination!:D
dave2010
21-06-2013, 13:16
Sorry, just to clarify my first postings on this thread. The title "Why is British retail so poor?" suggests something very generic, and I felt I could identify with that, particularly after my experiences more than a decade ago in the USA. I was not specifically thinking of audio equipment suppliers. However on reflection I would say that in fact some of the UK retail industry is not poor, though one's perception may depend on circumstances, where one lives etc. Food distribution I think is now generally excellent for those who live near supermarkets, and in towns some specialist food shops fill in the gaps left by such large outlets. Choice in some areas of retail in the UK beats anything almost anywhere else. However, small towns may suffer from the death of the high street.
Most small towns did not have too many specialist shops for kit - such as hoovers, washing machines, fridges, TVs and hi-fi gear. Such shops have probably gone in many areas.
Audio gear can be different. There is still probably a market amongst the general population for cheapish amps, CD and DVD players etc. Tescos and Sainsburys are muscleing in at the bottom end.
Do audio dealers make money out of these people, or leave that market to John Lewis and Richer Sounds and the supermakets? Do many audio dealers try to run mail order as well as internet based businesses, or are many still stuggling to run older business models? If the latter, it seems likely that that will push the kit being marketed up the cost ladder, possibly (but not always) up the quality ladder, and volumes of sales may go down. Trying to keep a business going on few high value sales may be hard compared to selling lots of cheaper stuff.
Where there may have been some cooperation between dealers in the past (was there? e.g each having a patch, or specialist area) the need to survive may have led to cut throat competition and some firms going under. I have no particular insights here, but I suspect the disappearance of some outlets is indicative.
Some business people don't really care what they sell, be it washing powder, sports cars, or bikinis. The recent TV series with Peter Jones has seen some examples - one guy who was simply into selling, yet others who really care about what they sell and the whole ethos of what they're doing. I'd like to think that most audio dealers are in the business because they like sound/music, and the products they sell, but some may be less involved. Indeed modern businesses may be so profit orientated that there's almost no room for enthusiast dealers any more. I remember many years ago going to a dealer in Queensway, London, who amazed me with the little BBC Monitor speakers coupled with a sub woofer. He was a delight to talk to, and seemed genuinely keen just to show what he'd got, and could do. I have vague recollections of a shop in Oxford too (was that where Peter Walker had a business?) - I think that was to hear Quad Electrostatics. I knew Michael Gerzon personally, and many of the people we talked to were interested in audio, what could be done with the kit, and different techniques. I doubt whether many sales people now would know or care about the potential of different systems - and the quality of different recordings, or different recording techniques. There's too much emphasis on bottom line, marketing etc., but in fairness people have to try to make a living.
Added complications come from wives, who try to ban large speakers from living rooms, and insist on putting chairs in front of them and don't like the clutter of wires and lots of kit. ["Can't we have a neat, small, all-in-one unit?"]
It could be that the proportion of people who really care enough about sound quality and audio to buy kit to fit in with their life styles is now almost vanishingly small, and for dealers to tap into that market is a real challenge. For me I suspect it's no longer the cost of kit which is a barrier, but the feasibility and cost of a house or location in which to house any such equipment which could be the real and probably insuperable problem.
Gordon Steadman
21-06-2013, 14:45
Added complications come from wives, who try to ban large speakers from living rooms, and insist on putting chairs in front of them and don't like the clutter of wires and lots of kit. ["Can't we have a neat, small, all-in-one unit?"]
It could be that the proportion of people who really care enough about sound quality and audio to buy kit to fit in with their life styles is now almost vanishingly small, and for dealers to tap into that market is a real challenge. For me I suspect it's no longer the cost of kit which is a barrier, but the feasibility and cost of a house or location in which to house any such equipment which could be the real and probably insuperable problem.
My solution to that has always been to get a bigger house and a cheaper/more sensible wife:)
Indeed. Fortunately, mine loves big speakers (she likes bass), and we have a dedicated listening room for the system, so there are no issues. I wouldn't settle for anything less :)
Marco.
twickers
21-06-2013, 15:27
I have recently visited several local dealers, some after an initial phone call, and found them all very helpful, with regards to a new amp purchase. All but one offered home trial for 1-2 weeks with refund if not satisfied and with a ' ring us with any questions ' attitude. Not too shabby.
Online can be a pain. For some things it's great and i don't particularly give a shit where it's cheaper, but the trade off is, if any thing needs to go back it's all via email. Some don't even have a contact number. I prefer face to face and haven't experienced any of the crap service that others are moaning about. Maybe it's just the shops that sell high-end gear that get all pissy. Maybe they think certain people don't deserve to own it:eyebrows: Who knows.:scratch:
Indeed. Fortunately, mine loves big speakers (she likes bass), and we have a dedicated listening room for the system, so there are no issues. I wouldn't settle for anything less :)
Marco.
Wow Marco I didn't realize your good lady was a fan of ATC's or Pmc's :D
Lol... Not sure I follow you, Tony. Are you trying to say that ATCs or PMCs have more bass than my Lockies? They'd have to be the biggest and baddest boys in their respective ranges to compete! ;)
The point I was making was that, unlike a BWFH (Bitch Wife From Hell), who tries to change and control you, Del hates teeny-weeny squawk boxes and appreciates the benefits of a quality hi-fi system :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
22-06-2013, 09:57
My solution to that has always been to get a bigger house and a cheaper/more sensible wife:)
I liked what I heard once, when referring to his one and only wife he said
"My first wife"
:)
I used to call my only son "my favourite son", but also reminded him that it also made him my least favourite!
The Grand Wazoo
22-06-2013, 12:58
I liked what I heard once, when referring to his one and only wife he said
"My first wife"
:)
I heard about someone who did that during his wedding reception!
MikeMusic
22-06-2013, 13:30
I used to call my only son "my favourite son", but also reminded him that it also made him my least favourite!
:)
MikeMusic
22-06-2013, 13:31
I heard about someone who did that during his wedding reception!
:lol:
Either a very strong man or a complete fool !
The Grand Wazoo
22-06-2013, 13:38
I think he thought his new wife would see the funny side. Apparently she took a little persuading!
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