View Full Version : Why is British retail so poor?
MikeMusic
22-06-2013, 14:09
I think he thought his new wife would see the funny side. Apparently she took a little persuading!
That was a lesson he needed to learn urgently, especially on her 'special day'
Wonder if he was ever forgiven ... ?
NO !
:D
Lol... Not sure I follow you, Tony. Are you trying to say that ATCs or PMCs have more bass than my Lockies? They'd have to be the biggest and baddest boys in their respective ranges to compete! ;)
The point I was making was that, unlike a BWFH (Bitch Wife From Hell), who tries to change and control you, Del hates teeny-weeny squawk boxes and appreciates the benefits of a quality hi-fi system :)
Marco.
Afternoon Marco
I was having a little fun t'was Friday :D
Mind you you did say your good lady appreciates a quality sound, I was wondering when you were going to introduce her to one:eek:
Just joshing with you.
Back to the thread, this question was raised on another forum a few months back, when a gent has a similar experience with a couple of dealers in another part of the country.
This was my reply then
"This is question gets raised from time to time from various dealers and customers alike.
A couple of valid points have been raised in this thread.
Emails, like the internet are both very useful and a right pain in the ****
I know of many dealers who's genuine inquiry email count is at least 50+ per day, granted some are simple yes and no answers. However a good 50% require at least a 15 minute response (looking up information and links plus composing the reply) multiple this time by at least 20 this is around five hours and this is without the customers replying to the original reply's in the first place.
Most audio retailers (shop fronted type) usually have 2 staff the odd one or two have 3. Taking five hours out of one of those 8 hours in day removes a great portion of one of those staff members working time.
Most dealers I know would prefer first contact to made by phone, afterwards any relevant information can be sent by emails.
Good service in my book is essence if the UK audio industry is to survive and answering inquiries is an important part of this.
Though I would also say if you get an email reply within 30 minutes it would indicate to me either that the company has a dedicated internet sales team or they have a fair bit of time on their hands.
Dealers do want your business (as do all retailers!) but you have to use them or you will loose them, this year 8 dealers have gone under including some long standing names.
If you wish to have the choice, expertise and a listening environment, home demo facilities, consumer credit and part exchange. Then talk to your dealer, the vast majority are real music lovers with a passion for the equipment who wish to help you find the right solution for you."
Just to pick up on something that Alan Sircom wrote further back on the thread, which I meant to comment on at the time, but forgot about:
Stores like KJ West One cater for a very specific clientele, because it's one of the only audio stores that has both a walk-in trade and has the blue parts of the Monopoly board as its catchment area.
What I find fascinating about that observation is the assumption that the wealthy people in that area, interested in buying high-end audio and home cinema equipment, would automatically prefer to shop for such in a 'showy' looking establishment, like KJ, rather than somewhere which was less obviously pretentious looking, but which fulfilled all the necessary criteria Alan mentioned earlier, including the provision of clean up-to-date decor and clean 'up-to-date' salespeople! :eyebrows:
This assumption is akin to that of said wealthy people automatically choosing to dine every night at the Ritz, rather than, say, at a high quality, family-run bistro somewhere in London, which served authentic French cuisine, or drive a Rolls Royce or a Bentley, as opposed to something less overtly ostentatious, such as an Aston Martin or a Jaguar. If Alan's observation is true then, for me, it says more about the snooty attitude of wealthy Londoners, living in KJ's catchment area, than it does necessarily about wealthy people in general.
I can tell you, from considerable experience of dealing with millionaires (if those are the sorts of people Alan was referring to), on both a business and social level, as some of the customers of my art business are members of the 'Cheshire Set', and own properties, overlooking the racecourse, worth millions of pounds (indeed I believe that, outside of London, Chester is one of the most expensive areas in the UK for property prices), that such behaviour would be frowned upon and considered as rather vulgar and typical of the nouveau riche...
Now, none of these people I know are into high-end audio, but I can tell you that they would no sooner be seen shopping inside somewhere such as KJ, and be served by some oik in a suit, than they would be ordering jewellery, or some such, from the QVC channel! They would seek to do their business in somewhere more understated and bespoke in nature. Aside from the London thing, I also suspect it's about a city versus countryside thing, too, as moneyed people, who live in the country, in my experience, have rather different values from those who live in the city, and I share similar values myself to those occupying the former category.
When I lived up in Scotland, one of my best customers was a very wealthy family, and I'm talking 'old money' here, going back centuries, and one of their biggest passions, as so often is the case with these types of people, was horses. They had huge stables, set in many acres of land, but the thing about the Malcolms was that they were totally down to earth, with no airs and graces whatsoever, other than their 'posh' accents. The family even used to go for holidays together in their horse truck!
Lady Malcolm would also often be seen around the estate in old clothes (or driving her vintage Morris Minor car around town), with her hair looking like it needed a damn good brush, giving off an impression entirely opposite to how one might imagine a titled person, worth many millions of pounds to do, so much so that when Del first met her, she thought that she was the cleaner!!
Those are the sorts of people I respect, not your snooty, wannabe horray-henry, social climbers....! :nono:
The point I'm making here is that, in order to appeal to the sensibilities of wealthy people, shops don't necessarily need to be 'showy' and pretentious looking, as you could just as easily turn your target market completely off the idea of giving you their business, as the opposite, depending on what type of wealthy customer you are dealing with! Quite simply, people with 'old money', and real class, don't need to show off, and don't value superficial aesthetic frippery over genuine substance.... ;)
Marco.
Afternoon Marco
I
I know of many dealers who's genuine inquiry email count is at least 50+ per day, granted some are simple yes and no answers. However a good 50% require at least a 15 minute response (looking up information and links plus composing the reply) multiple this time by at least 20 this is around five hours and this is without the customers replying to the original reply's in the first place.
."
Have to say I am struggling to understand what all these people are e-mailing about and why it should take so long to answer them. Do you have any examples? What about a list of 'frequently asked questions' on the website - surely that would cut it down a bit, at least.
dave2010
22-06-2013, 16:50
I know a multi millionnaire who shops for bread and cakes in Sainsbury's when they're remaindered. He discovered that by accident - hasn't looked back.
An American one refused to travel on British trains before the cheap fares kicked in in the morning, even if it meant having to wait some time at the origin station!
I know a multi millionnaire who shops for bread and cakes in Sainsbury's when they're remaindered. He discovered that by accident - hasn't looked back.
An American one refused to travel on British trains before the cheap fares kicked in in the morning, even if it meant having to wait some time at the origin station!
Precisely, Dave: if you've got it, you don't want to let go of it easily!!
Marco.
Hi Martin
I will reply tomorrow I'm off to to watch WW Z now
The vast majority of people email dealers with questions from the obvious, in-depth to the banal.
You would wince at the emails I've seen at various outlets, sometimes it beggars belief, others are just fine.
Very few people seem to pick up the phone and actually ask a question.
odd times indeed
these types of discussions give one a far greater insight into what makes others tick than any amount of waffling about hi-fi! ;)
Marco.
This is possibly the strongest statement throughout the whole thread. I for one agree and disagree with the different people's views, but, it's very interesting to see how diverse this forum's members are!
Just to pick up on something that Alan Sircom wrote further back on the thread, which I meant to comment on at the time, but forgot about:
What I find fascinating about that observation is the assumption that the wealthy people in that area, interested in buying high-end audio and home cinema, would automatically prefer to shop for such in a 'showy' looking establishment, like KJ, rather than somewhere which was less obviously pretentious looking, but which fulfilled all the necessary criteria Alan mentioned earlier, including the provision of clean up-to-date decor and clean 'up-to-date' salespeople! :eyebrows:
This assumption is akin to that of said wealthy people automatically choosing to dine every night at the Ritz, rather than, say, at a high quality, family-run bistro somewhere in London, which served authentic French cuisine, or drive a Rolls Royce or a Bentley, as opposed to something less overtly ostentatious, such as an Aston Martin or a Jaguar. If Alan's observation is true then, for me, it says more about the snooty attitude of wealthy Londoners, living in KJ's catchment area, than it does necessarily about wealthy people in general.
I can tell you, from considerable experience of dealing with millionaires (if those are the sorts of people Alan was referring to), on both a business and social level, as some of the customers of my art business are members of the 'Cheshire Set', and own properties, overlooking the racecourse, worth millions of pounds (indeed I believe that, outside of London, Chester is one of the most expensive areas in the UK for property prices), that such behaviour would be frowned upon and considered as rather vulgar and typical of the nouveau riche...
Now, none of these people I know are into high-end audio, but I can tell you that they would no sooner be seen shopping inside somewhere such as KJ, and be served by some oik in a suit, than they would be ordering jewellery, or some such, from the QVC channel! They would seek to do their business in somewhere more understated and bespoke in nature. Aside from the London thing, I also suspect it's about a city versus countryside thing, too, as moneyed people, who live in the country, in my experience, have rather different values from those who live in the city, and I share similar values myself to those occupying the former category.
When I lived up in Scotland, one of my best customers was a very wealthy family, and I'm talking 'old money' here, going back centuries, and one of their biggest passions, as so often is the case with these types of people, was horses. They had huge stables, set in many acres of land, but the thing about the Malcolms was that they were totally down to earth, with no airs and graces whatsoever, other than their 'posh' accents. The family even used to go for holidays together in their horse truck!
Lady Malcolm would also often be seen around the estate in old clothes (or driving her vintage Morris Minor car around town), with her hair looking like it needed a damn good brush, giving off an impression entirely opposite to how one might imagine a titled person, worth many millions of pounds to do, so much so that when Del first met her, she thought that she was the cleaner!!
Those are the sorts of people I respect, not your snooty, wannabe horray-henry, social climbers....! :nono:
The point I'm making here is that, in order to appeal to the sensibilities of wealthy people, shops don't need to be 'showy' and pretentious looking, as you could just as easily turn your target market completely off the idea of giving you their business, as the opposite, depending on what type of wealthy customer you are dealing with! Quite simply, people with 'old money', and real class, don't need to show off, and don't value superficial aesthetic frippery over genuine substance.... ;)
Marco.
Marco,
That's quite a lot.of stereotyping for one post, but I shall add some more of my own!. I can only guess you dont visit Mayfair or Bond Street very often - glitzy shops are pretty much the only type of shops there!. I dont think authenticity or old world charm would cut the mustard with that sort of clientele.
We aren't really talking old money in terms of the landed gentry or the aristocracy here - many, many people from the middle east, Russia or China make London their summer home, and I'd they want to kit a home out with hifi or any other product then they would expect the retailer to be trading from premesis looking like a marble- clad banking hall rather than a grotty retail unit. in certain areas you can almost see more Bentleys, Rolls Royces, Maybachs, Lamborghini and so on than ordinary cars such as Mercs or others. A Mercedes S class is for minicab drivers!. the display of wealth and ostentation is really quite staggering.
Whether or not KJ and their ilk represent our ideal of what we would look for or expect from a dealer is irrelevant as they aren't there for the the enthusiast as we would describe one, and clearly have identified the needs of their chosen customers demographic and are chasing their business. Who can blame them, I suppose.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Tony,
I was having a little fun t'was Friday :D
Mind you you did say your good lady appreciates a quality sound, I was wondering when you were going to introduce her to one...
Lol... Love it! I could offer you a witty retort, but the content would probably not be entirely work-safe! :eyebrows:
If you wish to have the choice, expertise and a listening environment, home demo facilities, consumer credit and part exchange. Then talk to your dealer, the vast majority are real music lovers with a passion for the equipment who wish to help you find the right solution for you."
Hear, hear! :clap:
Incidentally, you were one of the dealers I was thinking of when I was discussing the subject of 'good guys' earlier with Alan, along with the likes of Dave at Radlett Audio in Saffron Walden, Simon at Hi-Fi Sound in Stockton-on-Tees, and pretty much every dealer here, from 70-odd we have registered on AoS, and also ones such as Geoff at Acoustica and Rob at Aventures in Hi-Fi in Chester, Acton Gate Audio in Wrexham, Larry at The Audio Works in Cheadle, Trevor at Guildford Audio, and many more I could list - all of which have excellent facilities, nice, but not pretentions looking premises, know their products and target market inside out, and above all, are GENUINELY NICE PEOPLE to deal with!
I don't think many of them wear suits, though.......... ;)
Marco.
I don't think many of them wear suits, though.......... ;)
Marco.
Dave at Radlett Audio in Essex still wears a suit - a shell suit, obviously! ;) Although mostly these days I believe you'll find him in a leopard skin onesie. :lol: Sorry Dave! ;)
Alan Sircom
22-06-2013, 22:29
Just to pick up on something that Alan Sircom wrote further back on the thread, which I meant to comment on at the time, but forgot about:
What I find fascinating about that observation is the assumption that the wealthy people in that area, interested in buying high-end audio and home cinema, would automatically prefer to shop for such in a 'showy' looking establishment, like KJ, rather than somewhere which was less obviously pretentious looking, but which fulfilled all the necessary criteria Alan mentioned earlier, including the provision of clean up-to-date decor and clean 'up-to-date' salespeople! :eyebrows:
This assumption is akin to that of said wealthy people automatically choosing to dine every night at the Ritz, rather than, say, at a high quality, family-run bistro somewhere in London, which served authentic French cuisine, or drive a Rolls Royce or a Bentley, as opposed to something less overtly ostentatious, such as an Aston Martin or a Jaguar. If Alan's observation is true then, for me, it says more about the snooty attitude of wealthy Londoners, living in KJ's catchment area, than it does necessarily about wealthy people in general.
I can tell you, from considerable experience of dealing with millionaires (if those are the sorts of people Alan was referring to), on both a business and social level, as some of the customers of my art business are members of the 'Cheshire Set', and own properties, overlooking the racecourse, worth millions of pounds (indeed I believe that, outside of London, Chester is one of the most expensive areas in the UK for property prices), that such behaviour would be frowned upon and considered as rather vulgar and typical of the nouveau riche...
Now, none of these people I know are into high-end audio, but I can tell you that they would no sooner be seen shopping inside somewhere such as KJ, and be served by some oik in a suit, than they would be ordering jewellery, or some such, from the QVC channel! They would seek to do their business in somewhere more understated and bespoke in nature. Aside from the London thing, I also suspect it's about a city versus countryside thing, too, as moneyed people, who live in the country, in my experience, have rather different values from those who live in the city, and I share similar values myself to those occupying the former category.
When I lived up in Scotland, one of my best customers was a very wealthy family, and I'm talking 'old money' here, going back centuries, and one of their biggest passions, as so often is the case with these types of people, was horses. They had huge stables, set in many acres of land, but the thing about the Malcolms was that they were totally down to earth, with no airs and graces whatsoever, other than their 'posh' accents. The family even used to go for holidays together in their horse truck!
Lady Malcolm would also often be seen around the estate in old clothes (or driving her vintage Morris Minor car around town), with her hair looking like it needed a damn good brush, giving off an impression entirely opposite to how one might imagine a titled person, worth many millions of pounds to do, so much so that when Del first met her, she thought that she was the cleaner!!
Those are the sorts of people I respect, not your snooty, wannabe horray-henry, social climbers....! :nono:
The point I'm making here is that, in order to appeal to the sensibilities of wealthy people, shops don't need to be 'showy' and pretentious looking, as you could just as easily turn your target market completely off the idea of giving you their business, as the opposite, depending on what type of wealthy customer you are dealing with! Quite simply, people with 'old money', and real class, don't need to show off, and don't value superficial aesthetic frippery over genuine substance.... ;)
Marco.
Marco,
With the greatest respect, this is getting ridiculous. No one has to shop at KJ, in the same way no one has to shop at Fortnum & Mason or Armani. There are other places they can buy from, including Walrus and if they are prepared to drive a couple of miles outside of the West End, Sonata and Sevenoaks and Grahams and Cornflake and Richer Sounds and Oranges & Lemons and more. Interestingly though, a third audio store has opened this week in the same vicinity, called the Audio Lounge. The top end systems there start pretty much where KJ leaves off, and it also offers a music concierge service to its clientele, which offers everything from booking tickets for gigs to booking Beyonce to play at your daughter's 16th birthday party.
Audio is a broad enough church to accommodate all manner of people, but Marylebone self-selects to a very specific clientele. And that clientele does not include many who live in a bucolic world of 'old money' who use the family silver from 15 generations ago. But the reality is if Lady Malcolm drives around in a Morris Minor, she's not really the target audience for the new car market. And if Sir Malcolm is still using his father's father's Quad amp and 57s (good though they might be) from his home in a Miss Marple novel, he's not really travelling into central London to buy the latest equipment from a going concern dealer.
If you run a business in Marylebone in 2013, you either target the people who shop in Marylebone in 2013, or your business crumbles. And given London rates, crumbles fast. And no, you don't see many family run bistros and yes, you do see a lot of Bentleys in that part of London.
Frankly though, I find your post indicative of the worst kind of snobbery. Last time I looked, you didn't need to have a great-great grandfather who was pals with Clive of India to buy a Linn system or a pair of Harbeths. Is someone buying hi-fi in Chelsea somehow inferior to someone buying the same hi-fi in Cheshire? If so, why?
And, for the record. The last time I saw the 'oik in a suit' you describe so distastefully, he was wearing a nice clean shirt and a smart pair of jeans. And he wasn't selling some extravagant male jewellery to a billionaire Muscovite... it looked like he was selling a pair of Harbeths to a middle-aged woman who seemed to like opera. And pomeranians.
I love KJ its what makes west end shopping trips with the wife bearable ,I go in quite often and never look like I could afford anything ,yet I am always treated with respect and they are always happy to demo anything ,I always leave feeling a bit sick though:)
Hi Alex,
That's quite a lot.of stereotyping for one post, but I shall add some more of my own!. I can only guess you dont visit Mayfair or Bond Street very often - glitzy shops are pretty much the only type of shops there!. I dont think authenticity or old world charm would cut the mustard with that sort of clientele.
First of all, with regard to stereotyping, you will note that I said: "if Alan's observation is true"; i.e. I don't know, as I very rarely go to London and have next to no interest in the place (partly because of a desire to distance myself as far as possible from the materialistic bullshit there and those who value such as important), so I'm only surmising what people are like around KJ's catchment area, based on my past experience of knowing people of the type Alan alludes to, but not those who actually live in that specific area.
We aren't really talking old money in terms of the landed gentry or the aristocracy here - many, many people from the middle east, Russia or China make London their summer home, and I'd they want to kit a home out with hifi or any other product then they would expect the retailer to be trading from premesis looking like a marble- clad banking hall rather than a grotty retail unit.
First of all, you're going to extremes by referring to what I would consider as perfectly acceptable premises for a hi-fi dealer, as "a grotty retail unit". I can assure you that there is nothing grotty about the establishments or trading premises of the dealers I listed earlier; albeit none, as far as I know, have marble-clad halls ;)
I'm sure you're right about the people you mention, and they're perfectly entitled to shop where they want and buy what they like. That aside, I'm also entitled to comment on what seems to be important to them (materialistic frippery) and state that I don't like or share their shallow values. Pretentious people like that are one of the reasons why I'd no sooner want to live in that area of London, even if I could afford it, than I would amongst other undesirables in a tenement flat in Peckham.
...certain areas you can almost see more Bentleys, Rolls Royces, Maybachs, Lamborghini and so on than ordinary cars such as Mercs or others. A Mercedes S class is for minicab drivers!. the display of wealth and ostentation is really quite staggering.
Oh, I don't doubt it, but that sort of thing turns me right off. Sorry, I'm more repulsed than impressed by such vulgar exhibitions of wealth. I'm all for people being wealthy (if it's been achieved legally and morally), but I dislike the showy types who feel the need to 'celebrate' it as some pretentious badge of honour. I prefer a more subtle and understated approach to enjoying a comfortable lifestyle, as a result of one's financial security.
Whether or not KJ and their ilk represent our ideal of what we would look for or expect from a dealer is irrelevant as they aren't there for the the enthusiast as we would describe one, and clearly have identified the needs of their chosen customers demographic and are chasing their business. Who can blame them, I suppose.
You're right, no-one, and good luck to them. However, that doesn't prevent me from expressing my distaste at what they represent and what I consider is a major part of what is currently wrong with the high-end hi-fi industry. It is, quite simply, not catering enough for the needs of genuine audio enthusiasts, wealthy or otherwise.
Marco.
Hi Alan,
Marco,
With the greatest respect, this is getting ridiculous. No one has to shop at KJ, in the same way no one has to shop at Fortnum & Mason or Armani. There are other places they can buy from, including Walrus and if they are prepared to drive a couple of miles outside of the West End, Sonata and Sevenoaks and Grahams and Cornflake and Richer Sounds and Oranges & Lemons and more. Interestingly though, a third audio store has opened this week in the same vicinity, called the Audio Lounge. The top end systems there start pretty much where KJ leaves off, and it also offers a music concierge service to its clientele, which offers everything from booking tickets for gigs to booking Beyonce to play at your daughter's 16th birthday party.
Audio is a broad enough church to accommodate all manner of people, but Marylebone self-selects to a very specific clientele. And that clientele does not include many who live in a bucolic world of 'old money' who use the family silver from 15 generations ago. But the reality is if Lady Malcolm drives around in a Morris Minor, she's not really the target audience for the new car market. And if Sir Malcolm is still using his father's father's Quad amp and 57s (good though they might be) from his home in a Miss Marple novel, he's not really travelling into central London to buy the latest equipment from a going concern dealer.
If you run a business in Marylebone in 2013, you either target the people who shop in Marylebone in 2013, or your business crumbles. And given London rates, crumbles fast. And no, you don't see many family run bistros and yes, you do see a lot of Bentleys in that part of London.
Frankly though, I find your post indicative of the worst kind of snobbery. Last time I looked, you didn't need to have a great-great grandfather who was pals with Clive of India to buy a Linn system or a pair of Harbeths. Is someone buying hi-fi in Chelsea somehow inferior to someone buying the same hi-fi in Cheshire? If so, why?
And, for the record. The last time I saw the 'oik in a suit' you describe so distastefully, he was wearing a nice clean shirt and a smart pair of jeans. And he wasn't selling some extravagant male jewellery to a billionaire Muscovite... it looked like he was selling a pair of Harbeths to a middle-aged woman who seemed to like opera. And pomeranians.
Thanks for your thoughts. I accept largely what you're saying, but I think we've reached the point now where it's probably best simply to 'agree to disagree', partly because you've misconstrued some of what I've written and I have no desire to proceed further with this circular debate. We've made our respective points rather vociferously, and clearly we will never see eye-to-eye on this matter, so let's just move on :)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
22-06-2013, 23:10
Hi Alan,
Thanks for your thoughts. I accept largely what you're saying, but I think we've reached the point now where it's probably best simply to 'agree to disagree', partly because you've misconstrued some of what I've written and I have no desire to proceed further with this circular debate. We've made our respective points rather vociferously, and clearly we will never see eye-to-eye on this matter, so let's just move on :)
Marco.
Marco,
If I have misconstrued what you have written, I apologise. But I feel the same. You are spiralling on one shop in an area of London that has more art galleries than places to buy a pint of milk, and extrapolating that to be a 'major part' of what's wrong in the industry. But you are right, let's move on...
Alan, a major part of what I think is wrong with the hi-fi industry today is epitomised by the superficial materialistic values of those who live in the area of London in question (an attitude which no doubt is reflected in other major world cities) and how, in general, the high-end audio industry panders more to their needs than those of genuine enthusiasts, such as myself and others on AoS, and worst of all, feeds people the false notion that induging in high-end audio should be 'aspirational' :rolleyes:
I abhor anything that reeks of elitism!
If, and I say *if*, the values, portrayed as important by the KJ store in Marlebone, are indicative of how hi-fi dealerships are to be in future, even if it's just a watered down version of that, in order to cater for a similarly-minded clientele elsewhere, then God help us!!
That's essentially it, and my final words on the matter :)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
22-06-2013, 23:59
Alan, a major part of what I think is wrong with the hi-fi industry today is epitomised by the superficial materialistic values of those who live in the area of London in question (an attitude which no doubt is reflected in other major world cities) and how, in general, the high-end audio industry panders more to their needs than those of genuine enthusiasts, such as myself and others on AoS, and worst of all, feeds people the false notion that indulging in high-end audio should be 'aspirational' :rolleyes:
I abhor anything that reeks of elitism!
If, and I say *if*, the values, portrayed as important by the KJ store in Marlebone, are indicative of how hi-fi dealerships are to be in future, even if it's just a watered down version of that, in order to cater for a similarly-minded clientele elsewhere, then God help us!!
That's essentially it, and my final words on the matter :)
Marco.
OK Marco, I do understand.
I personally don't think the situation is anywhere near as bad as you think it is, but I guess I wouldn't (and probably couldn't) think that and stay in my job. But in many respects the high-end of everything has always had to cater for that kind of market. People who are passionate about Ferrari fall into two groups; those who can afford them new, and those who scrimp and save to buy a 25 year old Ferrari. Between them, there are people who buy a Ferrari because it's their way to express their wealth, and not much else.
The thing is though, were it not for those people who consider a Ferrari something to be seen driving rather than the centre of the passion, those who are passionate about Ferraris - but who will never be able to afford one new - would never have the chance to buy something excellent 10, 15 or even 25 years later.
The same happens with high-end audio. I know you aren't a fan, but many of those who do appreciate what it does, get to afford what it does on the back of someone who buys it for materialistic reasons. If I weren't in the industry, I'd probably be waiting for someone to sell up their DarTZeel or Berning amps - not because of some materialistic desire to possess expensive shiny things, but because in my opinion they do things sonically better than anything else I've heard, at any price and from any time, modified or not.
I still maintain those materialistic buyers are more rare in high-end audio than in other branches of conspicuous spending, because few people out there in the real world will ever say "wow... you bought a VTL?" in the way they might if we were talking about a Rolex or a Porsche. Practically every high-end buyer I've met (and I've met a lot) have not been motivated by materialism, but by a common goal of musical passion.
In part, though, that lack of materialism is because audio is an old man's hobby.
Dave at Radlett Audio in Essex still wears a suit - a shell suit, obviously! ;) Although mostly these days I believe you'll find him in a leopard skin onesie. :lol: Sorry Dave! ;)
Yesh, and with his wife's knickers underneath! :D
Only kidding, Dave!
Marco.
OK Marco, I do understand.
I personally don't think the situation is anywhere near as bad as you think it is, but I guess I wouldn't (and probably couldn't) think that and stay in my job. But in many respects the high-end of everything has always had to cater for that kind of market. People who are passionate about Ferrari fall into two groups; those who can afford them new, and those who scrimp and save to buy a 25 year old Ferrari. Between them, there are people who buy a Ferrari because it's their way to express their wealth, and not much else.
The thing is though, were it not for those people who consider a Ferrari something to be seen driving rather than the centre of the passion, those who are passionate about Ferraris - but who will never be able to afford one new - would never have the chance to buy something excellent 10, 15 or even 25 years later.
The same happens with high-end audio. I know you aren't a fan, but many of those who do appreciate what it does, get to afford what it does on the back of someone who buys it for materialistic reasons. If I weren't in the industry, I'd probably be waiting for someone to sell up their DarTZeel or Berning amps - not because of some materialistic desire to possess expensive shiny things, but because in my opinion they do things sonically better than anything else I've heard, at any price and from any time, modified or not.
I still maintain those materialistic buyers are more rare in high-end audio than in other branches of conspicuous spending, because few people out there in the real world will ever say "wow... you bought a VTL?" in the way they might if we were talking about a Rolex or a Porsche. Practically every high-end buyer I've met (and I've met a lot) have not been motivated by materialism, but by a common goal of musical passion.
In part, though, that lack of materialism is because audio is an old man's hobby.
Good post, Alan. I agree with much of it! However, it's now time to hit the sack, so until tomorrow.... :goodnight:
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
23-06-2013, 07:02
Those are the sorts of people I respect, not your snooty, wannabe horray-henry, social climbers....! :nono:
The point I'm making here is that, in order to appeal to the sensibilities of wealthy people, shops don't necessarily need to be 'showy' and pretentious looking, as you could just as easily turn your target market completely off the idea of giving you their business, as the opposite, depending on what type of wealthy customer you are dealing with! Quite simply, people with 'old money', and real class, don't need to show off, and don't value superficial aesthetic frippery over genuine substance.... ;)
Marco.
How this rang bells with me. The whole world here, is in danger of generalisation:eyebrows: but.......
......in a previous existence, I used to own a very upmarket Interior Design business. It was in Suffolk, where there was a real mix of wealth and poverty. The poor used to stand with their noses pressed to the window whilst us posh lot were drinking champers with the clients around the open roaring fire, you know the sort of thing.
Our clients tending to come in the two distinct kinds that Marco would recognise. The old money just appreciated what we offered and treated us as friends but still spent a fortune.
A small tale describes the other lot. We used to hold big garden parties in conjunction with a top class restaurant that was opposite us in the high street. We had huge marquees and used to invite hundreds to come and eat and drink the best, listen to the band and, naturally, see what was on offer.
After on such occasion, we were clearing up the following morning, my partner, me and her two kids, when this oik turned up and said that his wife had lost an earring the night before and could we look for it - I don't remember a please - after a bit of scrabbling in the grass, I found this emerald earring the size of a walnut.
He gave me £1 for my trouble:lol: He was totally unaware that I had been his host the night before (hope that says more about him than me!!) and assumed, as I was actually doing work and stuff, that I was a lackey of some kind. He left with a flea in his ear and was lucky not to have swallowed the coin or worse.
That experience sort of set my opinions in stone a bit and I'm sure they are not all the same any more than any other group of people but there is definitely something about new money that makes them think they are something special. Scrambled values to my mind.
That experience sort of set my opinions in stone a bit and I'm sure they are not all the same any more than any other group of people but there is definitely something about new money that makes them think they are something special. Scrambled values to my mind.
:exactly:
Gordon, I suspect that you and I are kindred spirits! ;)
Great tale and something which I've experienced on a similar level many times myself. Unfortunately, the world is full of the folk you describe, created by today's greedy and materialistic society. The fact is, continually feeding people the 'aspirational' message, in all areas of their existence, is as dangerous as any other type of insidious brainwashing.
Marco.
Gordon, I suspect that you and I are kindred spirits! ;)
Great tale and something which I've experienced on a similar level many times myself. Unfortunately, the world is full of the folk you describe, created by today's greedy and materialistic society. The fact is, continually feeding people the 'aspirational' message, in all areas of their existence, is as dangerous as any other type of insidious brainwashing.
Marco.
So we have established that there is a difference between those who buy a Ferrari because they love Ferraris and those who buy one simply to impress people. That's a very fine line. Human nature dictates that we will want to try to establish some status amongst our peers and owning aspirational items is a part of that process - read Morris's 'The Naked Ape' where this is all explained in detail. None of us escapes that entirely, even those of us who know that the most valuable things in life (family, friends, the beauty of the natural world) cannot be bought. A friend of mine recently e-mailed me a picture of his new crew cab Volkswagen pick up (an enormous thing like the Fall Guy's truck). He bought it on the advice of his accountant, not to impress anyone BUT he still sent me that picture (and probably to a few other people as well).
AS regards Ferraris, back when I worked in the exciting world of commercial vehicle leasing, one of my clients was the Ferrari Owners Club. They would have an annual beano to Spain and I provided the support vehicles. Dropping them back one year the grizzled old chief mechanic looked at me straight and said; 'Young man (I was 38 at the time), if you ever come into some money whatever you do, do not buy a Ferrari. They break down all the fucking time.'
dave2010
23-06-2013, 12:03
So we have established that there is a difference between those who buy a Ferrari because they love Ferraris and those who buy one simply to impress people. That's a very fine line. Human nature dictates that we will want to try to establish some status amongst our peers and owning aspirational items is a part of that process - read Morris's 'The Naked Ape' where this is all explained in detail. None of us escapes that entirely, even those of us who know that the most valuable things in life (family, friends, the beauty of the natural world) cannot be bought. A friend of mine recently e-mailed me a picture of his new crew cab Volkswagen pick up (an enormous thing like the Fall Guy's truck). He bought it on the advice of his accountant, not to impress anyone BUT he still sent me that picture (and probably to a few other people as well).
AS regards Ferraris, back when I worked in the exciting world of commercial vehicle leasing, one of my clients was the Ferrari Owners Club. They would have an annual beano to Spain and I provided the support vehicles. Dropping them back one year the grizzled old chief mechanic looked at me straight and said; 'Young man (I was 38 at the time), if you ever come into some money whatever you do, do not buy a Ferrari. They break down all the fucking time.'Currently staying in a hotel where we've been several times before and are familiar with the owners. Looks like one of their family has bought a Ferrari. I'm impressed by the immaculate looking engine under the glass panel which doubles as the rear window.
Hi Alan,
I personally don't think the situation is anywhere near as bad as you think it is, but I guess I wouldn't (and probably couldn't) think that and stay in my job.
Indeed, and so with respect, your public opinion on the matter is therefore unavoidably biased. This is the sort of conversation I'd enjoy having with you instead over a few, quality real ales (my shout), in a nice country pub! ;)
However, here's a thought: do you think that HFN are doing anything to quash the stench of pretentiousness in high-end audio by introducing a dress code and/or 'selection process', for attendees at their forthcoming hi-fi show?
But in many respects the high-end of everything has always had to cater for that kind of market. People who are passionate about Ferrari fall into two groups; those who can afford them new, and those who scrimp and save to buy a 25 year old Ferrari. Between them, there are people who buy a Ferrari because it's their way to express their wealth, and not much else.
You're absolutely right. However, the type of mentality you describe is not only something I cannot abide, or am even able to relate to, but also a big part of the problem I'm referring to with the high-end audio industry today. Why? Because, as always, it's a case of supply and demand: if pretentious idiots didn't feel the need to "express their wealth", through vulgar displays of materialistic exhibitionism, then the marketplace wouldn't feel compelled to cater for their whims. It's as simple as that.
By all means buy nice things (I love owning nice things), and after all, what is considered as 'expensive' is very much subjective, but do it for the right reasons: a love of and passion for the intrinsic qualities of the items concerned, not for their perceived prestige value or for their merits as status symbols. That mentality may well be more prevalent in the luxury car market, but it is also at work in the high-end audio industry, albeit at a less obvious level. One only has to observe the proliferation of 'audio jewellery', some costing the amount of a small house, paraded at the recent Munich hi-fi show, to see ample evidence of this.
The thing is though, were it not for those people who consider a Ferrari something to be seen driving rather than the centre of the passion, those who are passionate about Ferraris - but who will never be able to afford one new - would never have the chance to buy something excellent 10, 15 or even 25 years later.
That's a very good and valid point! However, why not simply make buying such a car more affordable in the first place? Let's face it, a BIG percentage of what the most ostentatious of luxury goods costs comes from an evaluation by the manufacturer of 'what the market will stand', together with the perceived 'prestige value' of the badge. Therefore, what I'm saying is, remove all that bullshit, artificially bumping up the price, and simply sell the product for what it is, 'naked'.
How many thousands of pounds do you think that would shave off the price tag? Simply arrive at a selling price for these items that allows the manufacturer to pay the bills and make a reasonable profit, not one which is designed to make them obscenely rich in a very short space of time!
The fact is, a Ferrari will intrinsically still be a Ferrari (in terms of what matters, underneath and outside of the hood), regardless if its badge has been stripped somewhat of snob value. Essentially, focus its appeal solely on wealthy customers who appreciate a Ferrari (or some other 'supercar' of its ilk) for no other reason than its engine performance, handling and/or aesthetic beauty: essentially, the genuine enthusiast. Exactly the same goes for high-end audio equipment, although the main focus there should always be on the quality of what's UNDERNEATH the hood....! :exactly:
The same happens with high-end audio. I know you aren't a fan, but many of those who do appreciate what it does, get to afford what it does on the back of someone who buys it for materialistic reasons. If I weren't in the industry, I'd probably be waiting for someone to sell up their DarTZeel or Berning amps - not because of some materialistic desire to possess expensive shiny things, but because in my opinion they do things sonically better than anything else I've heard, at any price and from any time, modified or not.
Again you're absolutely right, and that's another valid point to bolster your argument. However, where you *are* wrong, is in saying that I'm not a fan of high-end audio. How can someone whose plugs on his interconnects cost £100 a pair, who uses mains leads that cost the best part of grand each, and whose equipment is crammed full of rather expensive 'boutique' components, most of which are rarely seen inside 'hi-fi jewellery' sold today, posing as 'the best', NOT be a fan of high-end audio?? ;)
What I'm not a fan of is when the aesthetic appeal and/or convenience of use of hi-fi equipment outweighs its sonic abilities - and to my ears, there is sadly too much of that on sale today...
The fact is, Alan, I'm a fan of high-end audio, and buy into it, when I feel that doing so has maximum effect. This is usually where, in my opinion, a high-quality vintage item (in stock form or judiciously modified) is not the best option. Essentially, I will pay top dollar for something *provided* that my investment is realised in out-and-out sonic performance. If I feel that the price tag mostly reflects the costs of the product's 'brand image' or perceived 'status value', then I won't entertain using it.
Maybe one day when I attend a high-end audio show and listen to a demonstration of a system from Absolute Sounds, featuring a price tag well into six figures, and consider that it outperforms the system I have at home, instead of being deeply unimpressed, I'll change my approach!! ;)
I still maintain those materialistic buyers are more rare in high-end audio than in other branches of conspicuous spending, because few people out there in the real world will ever say "wow... you bought a VTL?" in the way they might if we were talking about a Rolex or a Porsche. Practically every high-end buyer I've met (and I've met a lot) have not been motivated by materialism, but by a common goal of musical passion.
I agree on both counts. However, it doesn't mean that the current high-end audio industry isn't suffering as a result of pandering to the needs of its materialistic buyers, or that things wouldn't improve if more equipment was made today that would tempt enthusiasts such as me, with a significant disposable income, to open their wallets in that direction more, instead of being forced to judiciously modify the best vintage equipment, in order to satisfy their standards for sonic performance.
The very fact that the above is the case, in my circumstances, is evidence that the high-end audio industry is currently failing to cater for my needs and probably many thousands of genuine enthusiasts like me, all over the world. If you don't think that's a problem, Alan, then I'm afraid that all the years of you occupying a privileged position in the high-end audio industry have clouded your ability to see what exists outside of it.
Marco.
dave2010
23-06-2013, 15:02
Things to think about:
1. Branding
2. Trickle down
3. Pretentiousness
and for audio, does it make the music sound good and/or realistic - which are not necessarily the same thing?
julesd68
23-06-2013, 16:33
Maybe one day when I attend a high-end audio show and listen to a demonstration of a system from Absolute Sounds, featuring a price tag well into six figures, and consider that it outperforms the system I have at home, instead of being deeply unimpressed, I'll change my approach!! ;)
Hi Marco,
I'm interested to know at what price does audio become 'high-end'? Or is price not the determining factor?
The dealers you like that you mentioned earlier in the thread - I'm assuming that you don't count them as 'high-end' ...
Haselsh1
23-06-2013, 17:29
I think if I were working in general retail I possibly wouldn't be the best sales person either for £6.19 an hour over a forty hour week. If you pay minimum wage you can't expect maximum effort.
Lodgesound
23-06-2013, 18:44
On the subject of wages - or rather the lack of them - this is taken from a recruitment agency advert for a job in the film and television industry:
Do you have the following skills and are you immediately available?
EDIT
• avid & fcp set up and or fix
• digitise rushes for above
• wrangle (back up/manage) media for developments and some productions
• transcode and upload cuts from edits
• create dvd's & duplicate
• rip dvd's/web clips for development edits
• look after laptops (pc & mac)
• store, log rushes on drives
• workflow help, post production help for new productions
• camera assistance and advice for productions
• edit together basic cuts (development/ taster tapes)
IT
• general PC maintenance and fixes
• printer issues
• laptop set up (outlook, word, excel, office etc)
• liaise with IT and assist when needed
• camera/drives/laptop ordering
• maintain iPads, laptops, iMac's, iPhones of the Founder and Creative Director
• help runners when needed
Some if not most of this requires engineering and fault diagnosis expertise - they also require coding ability in Unix and PC along with software troubleshooting and modification skills.
ALL THIS FOR £6.19 per hour PRO RATA!
This equates to around £6500 - A YEAR!!
This is what has happened to film and television - people are expected to have an engineering degree and 5 years experience for the above. I dread to think what the situation is in retail now. I was considered no longer viable at the age of 32.
When I worked in retail all I got was shouting and screaming and being told that I would never amount to anything - I was glad I got out but even having spent a quarter of a century in film and television I can no longer actually make a living wage from the skills and experience I have aquired.
It is a worrying state of affairs when skill, ability and expertise in any technically related subject are not only ignored - they are actually frowned upon.
It is hardly surprising some of the attitude one encounters in retail now.
I wholeheartedly agree, Stewart (and also with Shaun) that many jobs are underpaid, and so employees subsequently feel undervalued. However, whilst that's undoubtedly the case, can anyone here say that if they were in one of those jobs, that they still wouldn't perform necessary tasks to the best of their ability?
I know that I couldn't, quite simply, because my attitude is that when I decide do something, I can't help but to it to the best of my ability: the desire for that comes naturally. That would apply even if the work was voluntary.
I worked in retail sales for years, before I started my own business, and having a low paid basic salary (minus commission) didn't stop me from providing customers with the best service I could, which ironically in turn, would earn me the most commission and a decent salary, as people liked my attitude and so would more likely give me the sale than one of my colleagues who simply grumbled and grunted and went through the motions...
Consequently, after proving my ability, I was rewarded by senior management and promoted up through the company, culminating in running my own department, with a team of sales people under me, and earning a very good salary, considering that this was merely retail department store sales in the 1980s. I then used the skills I learned there (and at much higher levels of sales, working for bigger companies) to start my own business - and as they say, the rest is history! :)
Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned there, in terms of always having a positive attitude and making the best of what you've got? The fact is there is always someone else worse off than you! ;)
Marco.
Lodgesound
23-06-2013, 19:49
I agree Marco however as it stands now from personal experience promotion is only granted to those with a suitable background - in television and film that is at the very least a public school education, a titled family and / or a degree from a top university.
I took your attitude with regard to performing the work and it got me nowhere - ultimately I was made redundant - I felt grateful though - I got a whopping £1000 for my 12 years service and no reference.
Yes hard work and ability used to pay off - I'm sorry to say that it seems to pay less and less.
julesd68
23-06-2013, 20:10
I agree Marco however as it stands now from personal experience promotion is only granted to those with a suitable background - in television and film that is at the very least a public school education, a titled family and / or a degree from a top university.
Hi Stewart,
I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get the promotion your work deserved.
I'd like to ask you if you are referring to the BBC when talking about public school education etc etc ? I could see that possibly being a factor there, but the tv / film industry is of course much wider than that, and there are so many different areas of the industry where those issues just don't come into play, in my experience, and in fact aren't probably things you'd shout about if you wanted to get on!
Alan Sircom
23-06-2013, 21:35
Hi Alan,
However, here's a thought: do you think that HFN are doing anything to quash the stench of pretentiousness in high-end audio by introducing a dress code and/or 'selection process', for attendees, at their forthcoming hi-fi show?
It depends. If there's a dress code for the exhibitors, I don't think that's a bad thing. As an exhibitor, you are effectively ambassador for the products you are demonstrating, and it's hard to be an ambassador if you look like you are wearing a sack of potatoes that you forgot to completely empty.
If it applies to the public, that's a different concern. However, he might be trying to quash the stench of one unfortunately quite disturbed person who used to only visit the Manchester shows, but has recently branched out further afield. It might be a bit extreme to try and make the show more exclusive to exclude one person, but I'm probably not the only member of the UK hi-fi business who retches at the thought of having to speak to him again. I'm not exaggerating here... if you ever went to the Manchester Sound & Vision Show, you probably know who I'm talking about and yes, that was faeces in his bag.
You're absolutely right. However, the type of mentality you describe is not only something I cannot abide, or am even able to relate to, but also a big part of the problem I'm referring to with the high-end audio industry today. Why? Because, as always, it's a case of supply and demand: if pretentious idiots didn't feel the need to "express their wealth", through vulgar displays of materialistic exhibitionism, then the marketplace wouldn't feel compelled to cater for their whims. It's as simple as that.
By all means buy nice things (I love owning nice things), and after all, what is considered as 'expensive' is very much subjective, but do it for the right reasons: a love of and passion for the intrinsic qualities of the items concerned, not for their perceived prestige value or for their merits as status symbols. That mentality may well be more prevalent in the luxury car market, but it is also at work in the high-end audio industry, albeit at a less obvious level. One only has to observe the proliferation of 'audio jewellery', some costing the amount of a small house, paraded at the recent Munich hi-fi show, to see ample evidence of this.
I don't disagree. Conspicuous spending is a pernicious thing. And we live in a time of great disparity of income and many of those who can afford good things, are sometimes those like to show them off, so this will only get worse. However, it also holds that conspicuous spending, distasteful as it is to many, is also frequently the engine of great art. And yes, I can hear the Harry Lime 'cuckoo clock' monologue from The Third Man as I write that.
In audio for example, Crystal Cable and Siltech could be considered the financial engine that helps drive Spendor.
Ultimately though, appeals to the purse are formal fallacies, whether the purse is big or small.
That's a very good and valid point! However, why not simply make buying such a car more affordable in the first place? Let's face it, a BIG percentage of what the most ostentatious of luxury goods costs comes from an evaluation by the manufacturer of 'what the market will stand', together with the perceived 'prestige value' of the badge. Therefore, what I'm saying is, remove all that bullshit, artificially bumping up the price, and simply sell the product for what it *actually* is.
How many thousands of pounds do you think that would shave off the price tag? Simply arrive at a selling price for these items that allows the manufacturer to pay the bills and make a reasonable profit, not one which is designed to make them obscenely rich in a very short space of time!
The fact is, a Ferrari will intrinsically still be a Ferrari (in terms of what matters, underneath and outside of the hood), regardless if its badge has been stripped somewhat of snob value. Essentially, focus its appeal solely on wealthy customers who appreciate a Ferrari (or some other 'supercar' of its ilk) for no other reason than its engine performance, handling and/or aesthetic beauty: essentially, the genuine enthusiast. The same goes for high-end audio equipment, although the main focus there should always be what's UNDER the hood....!
Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. High-end products of all descriptions (including high-end audio) are frequently Veblen goods, in that their desirability among the cognoscenti is intrinsically linked to price and exclusivity. Lowering the price, under those circumstances, lowers the desirability of the products and the brand itself.
Arguably the worst expression of this is Franck Muller watches, which are - in most cases - a good, but cheap ETA movement (that you might find in an automatic watch costing a few hundred pounds) in a garish case for the cost of a nice Mercedes. The watches sell because they are expensive, and that shows your shallow group of friends just how much money you made in the city last year. You could confidently knock a zero or two from the price tag and still be able to turn a profit, but those current buyers wouldn't touch it because it wasn't exclusive enough. Reviewers who point this out are quietly dropped from the watch review circuit, not because Franck Muller spends big advertising budget, but because the watch-buying 'whales' demand they be dropped because they are only 'jealous'. If Muller did drop its prices, those who could afford the now-cheaper Franck Muller watches probably wouldn't buy them because for the same money D&G has more shiny crystals.
However, in most cases, companies who make products that are perceived as Veblen goods do make an outstanding product, but are stuck between a rock and a hard place. The very tight squeeze on the middle-incomes has not released its grip yet, so if you made a product that delivers the performance requirements you demand from your company, but do it cheaper, there is no guarantee that a larger audience will beat a path to your door. In fact, the reverse has often been proved to be the case.
Again you're absolutely right, and that's another valid point to bolster your argument. However, where you *are* wrong, is in saying that I'm not a fan of high-end audio. How can someone whose plugs on his interconnects cost £100 a pair, who uses mains leads that cost the best part of grand each, and whose equipment is crammed full of rather expensive 'boutique' components, most of which are rarely seen inside the 'hi-fi jewellery' sold today, posing as 'the best', NOT be a fan of high-end audio?? ;)
What I'm not a fan of is when the aesthetic appeal and/or convenience of use of hi-fi equipment outweighs its sonic abilities - and to my ears, there is sadly too much of that on sale today!!
The fact is, Alan, I'm a fan of high-end audio, and buy it, when I feel that it's justified to do so. This is usually where, in my opinion, a high-quality vintage item is not the best option. Essentially, I will pay top dollar for something *provided* that my investment is realised in out-and-out sonic performance. If I feel that the price tag mostly reflects the costs of the product's 'brand image' or perceived 'status value', then I won't entertain using it.
Maybe one day when I attend a high-end audio show and listen to a demonstration of a system from Absolute Sounds, featuring a price tag well into six figures, and consider that it outperforms the system I have at home, instead of being deeply unimpressed, I'll change my approach!! ;)
I stand corrected. There is a lot more to the world of high-end than Absolute Sounds, though.
I agree on both counts. However, it doesn't mean that the current high-end audio industry isn't suffering as a result of pandering to the needs of its materialistic buyers, or that things wouldn't improve if more equipment was made today that would tempt enthusiasts such as me, with a significant disposable income, to open their wallets in that direction more, instead of being forced to judiciously modify the best vintage equipment, in order to satisfy their standards for sonic performance.
The very fact that the above is the case, in my circumstances, is evidence that the high-end audio industry is currently failing to cater for my needs and probably many thousands of genuine enthusiasts like me, all over the world. If you don't think that's a problem, Alan, then I'm afraid that all the years of you occupying a privileged position in the high-end audio industry have clouded your ability to see what exists outside of it.
Marco.
I don't deny that the audio industry as it currently stands is failing to reach both aspects of its core audience, and especially to reach a new audience. In a very real way, the two are related; the more hi-fi caters for that new audience - by focusing on more integrated, computer-audio based products and headphone related products - the more it disenfranchises its older former customers, but if it focuses on the needs and demands of those older customers, the newcomers are pushed away. It should be a broad enough topic to cover both bases, but it seems to be currently impossible. There is common ground in vinyl at this time, but that's it.
But, I don't think this comes down to poor products, because we have a wealth of extremely good products at practically every price point. In part it comes down to a general obsession with the Ferrari end of the market at the expense of everything else (Hi-Fi+ is hardly an innocent party in this, but we are also stuck between a rock and a hard place because the times we have focused on inexpensive audio, we've seen a significant downturn in sales for that issue). It also comes down to fairly significant price increases in many products. And it's also the fact that audio's typical enthusiast buyers are not getting any younger and as we age, we tend to spend less on the hobbies that sustained us in earlier years (this is the biggest problem facing classical music today - it's audience is old enough to already have completed what they want from a classical collection, and aren't interested in new recordings, thereby killing the market stone dead).
Finally, I think this notion you have of the high-end industry pandering to the needs of its materialistic buyers is a selective view of a very wide market. I'd hardly call a buyer of something like a Kronzilla or a Berning pre/power 'materialistic' in approach - the Berning in particular is like Croft, with metal door-knobs in place of volume controls. However, I'd put these products up against any similar product old or new, stock or modified. If you heard something like the Berning - and I mean properly heard it, not acted like a bass trap, leaning up against a wall in a show demonstration for 20 seconds - I think you'd struggle to find anything that could beat it in a fair fight.
I'm not exactly unaware of what vintage stuff can do - I worked with Noel Keywood years ago, and he showed me just how good some vintage equipment can sound - but honestly, I think the only way even the best vintage equipment around could better something like the Berning pre/power was if the listener was wearing nostalgia-coated ear-muffs. And that's not the big 200W mono beasts - the 30watter would confidently see off practically everything.
Hi Alan,
Another interesting post... Lots again to comment on! :)
However, before we go any further, which Berning amp is it you’re referring to that to your ears is so wonderful? A friend of mine owned one of these for a couple of years in his high-end system:
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8646/ikot.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/ikot.jpg/)
He thought it was pretty good until he came round to mine and heard my KT-120-based Copper amp (see here for details: http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/custom.htm#top Anthony Matthews is a very talented amplifier designer. Indeed, his Soul amps were reviewed in Hi-Fi+ in 2003).
Anyway, the Copper amp (in conjunction with my modified Croft preamp) pissed all over the Berning (it really was quite embarrassing), so much so that my mate put it up for sale the next day and placed an order for a Copper amp...!! :eyebrows:
I certainly didn't hear anything in the Berning that hinted at greatness. However, perhaps you're talking about a different, more upmarket, Berning amplifier?
Marco.
P.S Julian and Stewart, I'll get to your posts later.
As point of reference, here's a link to the Hi-Fi+ review of Anthony's Soul amps, in 2003:
http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/soul_series_review.htm
Do you remember that review, Alan - perhaps you got a chance to hear them? Anyway, that's the calibre of amplifier designer I'm talking about and the type of products I rate, when it comes to high-end audio! ;)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
24-06-2013, 07:02
As point of reference, here's a link to the Hi-Fi+ review of Anthony's Soul amps, in 2003:
http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/soul_series_review.htm
Do you remember that review, Alan - perhaps you got a chance to hear them? Anyway, that's the calibre of amplifier designer I'm talking about and the type of products I rate, when it comes to high-end audio! ;)
Marco.
The Soul is an excellent amplifier. I have heard it, fed by a TEAD Vibe preamp. It works extremely well. I've also heard the Berning Quad Zs in the same system, fed by a Lyra preamp and it was considerably better. Go figure.
Alan Sircom
24-06-2013, 07:14
Hi Alan,
Another interesting post... Lots again to comment on! :)
However, before we go any further, which Berning amp is it you’re referring to that to your ears is so wonderful? A friend of mine owned one of these for a couple of years in his high-end system:
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8646/ikot.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/ikot.jpg/)
He thought it was pretty good until he came round to mine and heard my KT-120-based Copper amp (see here for details: http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/custom.htm#top Anthony Matthews is a very talented amplifier designer. Indeed, his Soul amps were reviewed in Hi-Fi+ in 2003).
Anyway, the Copper amp (in conjunction with my modified Croft preamp) pissed all over the Berning (it really was quite embarrassing), so much so that my mate put it up for sale the next day and placed an order for a Copper amp...!! :eyebrows:
I certainly didn't hear anything in the Berning that hinted at greatness. However, perhaps you're talking about a different, more upmarket, Berning amplifier?
Marco.
P.S Julian and Stewart, I'll get to your posts later.
The ZH-270 is now long gone. It's been replaced by the cheaper and IMO better sounding ZH-230. This is a power amp only design, and the gain structure from using a separate preamp helps a lot. Also, if you were using the ZH-270 with high-efficiency loudspeakers, its noise floor would get in the way. The 230's noise floor is far lower, and wouldn't be so intrusive.
The Soul is an excellent amplifier. I have heard it, fed by a TEAD Vibe preamp. It works extremely well. I've also heard the Berning Quad Zs in the same system, fed by a Lyra preamp and it was considerably better. Go figure.
Lol... Go figure? As in, perhaps the Berning suited the test system more than the Soul? Or you simply just preferred the sound of the Berning? 'Better' here is entirely subjective ;)
There are too many variables, Alan. Furthermore, the Copper amp is totally different design from the Soul amp....
Anyway, more seriously, this part of the discussion is pointless. I simply wanted you to know that my amplifier wasn't designed by some clueless noob in his garden shed (just in case you'd thought otherwise)! :eyebrows:
Marco.
The ZH-270 is now long gone. It's been replaced by the cheaper and IMO better sounding ZH-230. This is a power amp only design, and the gain structure from using a separate preamp helps a lot. Also, if you were using the ZH-270 with high-efficiency loudspeakers, its noise floor would get in the way. The 230's noise floor is far lower, and wouldn't be so intrusive.
I can't recall any noise issues. The issue was that the Berning just sounded 'grey' and hard (in a bad solid-state sense), tonally flat and musicially inept, in comparison with the Copper amp. That effect is quite common, IME, with OTL valve amps and/or any valve amplifier that uses PCBs extensively, rather than being hard-wired, point-to-point, throughout. I've not heard the ZH-230, or any other Berning amp in a familiar system, but if they share a 'house sound' with the 270, then they won't be for me.
I'll get to your long post, from yesterday, later! :)
Marco.
I got a whopping £1000 for my 12 years service and no reference.
Seriously? A reference is usually a pre-agreed part of any redundancy package and I'm shocked that you didn't get one.
MikeMusic
24-06-2013, 09:38
Crudproducts do great mudguards for bikes that don't take mudguards - so to speak
http://www.crudproducts.com/products/roadracer
They do spares at good prices direct to punter. Very helpful as you don't need the lot
Delivery is a couple of days, also good
I ordered a spare recently and it arrived. Unfortunately I had to pay a penalty to Royal Mail as no stamps.
Told Alison at Crud and just received a full refund today
I like them even more
Hi Stewart,
My apologies for the delay in replying.
I agree Marco however as it stands now from personal experience promotion is only granted to those with a suitable background - in television and film that is at the very least a public school education, a titled family and / or a degree from a top university.
I took your attitude with regard to performing the work and it got me nowhere - ultimately I was made redundant - I felt grateful though - I got a whopping £1000 for my 12 years service and no reference.
Yes hard work and ability used to pay off - I'm sorry to say that it seems to pay less and less.
I agree that in your profession that situation is both unacceptable and ridiculous. Skilled jobs, like yours, should attract a salary commensurate with those skills and any accumulated practical experience. However, as the thread is about retail sales, whilst I sympathise with low-paid sales staff, that isn't really any excuse for being impolite to customers or an almost complete liability! If you've got any sense of pride at all, then you should always carry out work to the best of your ability.
This also raises the question of whether ALL sales staff should be on a low basic wage, but have built-in incentives to sell, through attractive commission rates. I've always been in favour of the latter, as it encourages self-motivation, and ultimately increases job satisfaction. The only issue is that pushiness with customers can result through staff being over zealous with their sales technique, but that can be dealt with through training.
One of the benefits of any sales job, where there is an incentive to sell, through an employer offering attractive commission rates, is that the only limit to your earnings is how hard you're willing to work!! That is why a good salesperson, working for a decent company with a future, to an extent is always in control of his or her destiny - and entirely so, when they are self-employed. Furthermore, a good salesperson should almost never be out of work, as there is never a shortage of demand for the best ones!! :)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
24-06-2013, 11:42
Lol... Go figure? As in, perhaps the Berning suited the test system more than the Soul? Or you simply just preferred the sound of the Berning? 'Better' here is entirely subjective ;)
Too many variables, Alan. Furthermore, the Copper amp is totally different design from the Soul....
Anyway, more seriously, this part of the discussion is pointless. I simply wanted you to know that my amplifier wasn't designed by some clueless noob in his garden shed (just in case you'd thought otherwise)! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco,
I agree. And I'm sure your copper amp is extremely good, and it's possible the Berning better suited the system than the Soul. Or, that I simply preferred the sound of the Berning. But that brings it back to the original topic.
I think one of the biggest problems in audio retail has been a chronic failure to give the customer what they want. It comes down to misreading the customer's reasons for buying, and projecting the dealer's demands on the demands of the customer. This has many ways of going very wrong, but the two biggest IMO come down to trying to provide cookie cutter solutions to enthusiasts, and treating those who would want a cookie-cutter solution as enthusiasts.
Often, the condition of projecting the dealer's demands on the demands of the customer isn't about trying to palm off products in the back of the warehouse. It's about a poacher-turned-gamekeeper enthusiast salesperson thinking the customer who walked in asking for an integrated amplifier really desires the four-box, 150kg AER Emitter the salesperson is saving for. By the time it's made clear that no, what the customer really wanted is a Rega Brio R for his second system in the study, the impetus is lost.
The fact is, not everyone's a hi-fi enthusiast. Even many of those who buy good hi-fi are not hi-fi enthusiasts. They want something that sounds good; not to show off to their friends, but because they like music and want something that sounds good when they play that music. This has always been the case; those Quad and Garrard buying 'audiophiles' in the early 1960s were frequently nothing of the sort and just people with enough money to buy something 'better'. As soon as they installed that system, they dropped off the hi-fi enthusiast map, often until they dropped off the perch.
Some of these people will pay a premium for something that looks nice. I don't find that drive to be ostentatious; if someone is style-conscious and the system will go in the main room, those demands need to be respected and products need have to be made to meet those demands without sacrificing too much in the way of performance. If the person who has ultimate say about what goes does and doesn't go into the living room spends their days flicking through World of Interiors or Wallpaper, that dictates the end products purchased.
No, these people are not the market entire, but they are the bulk of the market. There will always be those who take infinite care in developing their systems, and frequently do so with such anal retentiveness that no one dealer would ever be able to support their every need. But the idea that this specialist end is a silent majority is folly - the absurd part of shows like Munich are the result of one man trying to build something to appeal to the five or six other people on the planet who share the same obsession. The sad reality is that audio designers are often convinced that there are 'thousands of disgruntled enthusiasts' out there waiting for something or another, and it's never the case.
Hi Julian,
Sorry for my late reply to this.
Hi Marco,
I'm interested to know at what price does audio become 'high-end'? Or is price not the determining factor?
The dealers you like that you mentioned earlier in the thread - I'm assuming that you don't count them as 'high-end' ...
All the dealers I mentioned earlier undoubtedly sell 'high-end' equipment. The term is rather ambiguous and therefore open to various interpretations. For me, 'high-end audio' is represented by the equipment in any decent quality separates system - essentially anything that is a significant step-up from your average mini or midi system, sold in superstores, where instead some judicious care has been undertaken by the listener to obtain the best possible sound within their budget.
However, the sort of 'high-end audio' Alan and I have been discussing is a different thing entirely, for which there should really be a set of sub-categories, so just for quickness, let's use the sub-categories 'super high-end' and 'ultra high-end'. I'd put my system and most of those found on AoS into the 'super high-end category', and the sort of kit readers like to, erm, 'overexcite themselves’ with in Alan's magazine (LOL... Think £40k amplifiers and such here), I'd put into the 'ultra high-end' category.
Not much of the latter I've heard at shows or in dealer's demo rooms have impressed me, which is why it looks like I'll be 'slumming it' with my disparate collection of bodged old tat for the foreseeable future! ;)
Hope this helps :)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
24-06-2013, 17:15
Hi Julian,
Sorry for my late reply to this.
All the dealers I mentioned earlier undoubtedly sell 'high-end' equipment. The term is rather ambiguous and therefore open to various interpretations. For me, 'high-end audio' is represented by the equipment in any decent quality separates system - essentially anything that is a significant step-up from your average mini or midi system, sold in superstores, where instead some judicious care has been undertaken by the listener to obtain the best possible sound within their budget.
However, the sort of 'high-end audio' Alan and I have been discussing is a different thing entirely, for which there should really be a set of sub-categories, so just for quickness, let's use the sub-categories 'super high-end' and 'ultra high-end'. I'd put my system and most of those found on AoS into the 'super high-end category', and the sort of kit readers like to, erm, 'overexcite themselves’ with in Alan's magazine (LOL... Think £40k amplifiers and such here), I'd put into the 'ultra high-end' category.
Not much of the latter I've heard at shows or in dealer's demo rooms have impressed me, which is why it looks like I'll be 'slumming it' with my disparate collection of bodged old tat for the foreseeable future! ;)
Hope this helps :)
Marco.
With respect, please do not patronise my readers like that. You might not agree with what they buy or even why they buy it, but there is absolutely no reason to insult them in that manner.
I do not agree with many of the things you hold dear, but I respect your right to hold them dear. Have the common decency to extend the same courtesy to others.
Alan, that's why the 'LOL' was there! Perhaps I should've used a winky smiley? Anyway, please accept my apologies. Honestly, no offence intended :)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
24-06-2013, 17:27
Alan, that's why the 'LOL' was there! Perhaps I should've used a winky smiley? Anyway, please accept my apologies. Honestly, no offence intended :)
Marco.
Marco,
No problems.
Alan
1st store -
I get to the manager after a bit of faffing about explaining what it concerns to the person who answers the phone
Very polite. Listens to what I have to say. Explain that he has lost the sale but thought he should know in case he was being let down. Says nothing substantive, but he is concerned, and apologises for my getting that impression of his shop. Will look into it and call me back. He was courteous and seemed to take what I said seriously.
Long and short, I could not realistically expect anything more from this conversation. I'll update as and when I get the call back. But I think I'll get called back.
2nd store -
Twenty rings, no answer. (OK probably short-staffed and busy with a punter, but still...)
Try again. Phone answered.
Manager not available.
May I leave a message and get him to call me back. Not urgent but I'd like to speak to him.
Could I try later instead?
No, I'd like to leave a message. He'll know when he's free to speak to me.
Grudging acceptance, phone put down to find a pen.
Give my name and number. Am an existing customer (You should have my details in your customer database - you regularly send me a newsletter). BTW, won't he want to know what is is about?
Oh all right.
I'd like to make a complaint about customer service.
OK. I'll ask him to call you back.
Let's see, but I'm not holding my breath...It might be unfair but Harry Enfield's Kevin the teenager's interactions with his parents came vividly to mind during this exchange.
I'll keep you posted.
Peter
So, for all those who haven't lost the will to live on this thread, an update on Friday a week later:
Zilch, nada, naff all back from either manager or anyone else. I've checked my 1471, 1571, voicemails every day this week.
Oh well. I'm not begging. Time to vote with my feet. Several good destinations for my future spending have been pointed out, not all of which stock the brands I was interested in trying.
I wonder what the affected manufacturers would make of this? For example, I have met Anthony Michaelson, who is a formidable chap and who takes his life's work seriously. He has a reputation for tearing dealers a new one for their transgressions, and I wonder how he would respond to the loss of a sale through such behaviour. (Much as I like it, I was not in the market for MF kit, so I'm not giving anything away regarding the dealers in question). I imagine many others would react similarly.
I'll keep you posted if things change.
Peter
jandl100
29-06-2013, 05:35
Thanks for the update, Peter - I was watching out for it.
Sad, very sad.
Why not let the manufacturers know? - these dealers are doing no-one any favours.
It would be interesting to know if the manufacturers are as indifferent to potential customers as their dealers.
Alan Sircom
29-06-2013, 09:17
Thanks for the update, Peter - I was watching out for it.
Sad, very sad.
Why not let the manufacturers know? - these dealers are doing no-one any favours.
It would be interesting to know if the manufacturers are as indifferent to potential customers as their dealers.
I agree... I would also say do it by email, and copy the dealer in on the email. That way, there is a paper trail, and it doesn't just look like a customer trying to go behind a dealer's back (which is the stock excuse).
julesd68
05-07-2013, 18:57
I am delighted to bring you a tale of happiness on this subject.
My Consonance cdp had been making some nasty mechanical noises for some months, so I decided to send it off to Peter at Deco Audio for a service. The job was turned round very quickly and fortunately it was just a belt that needed replacing. Got the player home and then, nothing - it wouldn't even read a disc!! It was sent in its original box and packing but had obviously taken a knock or two from the courier. Was not happy. So sent it back to Peter the next day and it turned out just to be an internal cable that had worked loose needed re-attaching. I didn't want to risk another courier, so decided to drive up to Aylesbury and pick it up myself. The cdp is now home and running beautifully smoothly; the mech is super quiet.
Very happy with Peter's friendly service all the way through the job. He also most kindly refunded my return courier cost, which was much appreciated. I would not hesitate to do business with Deco in the future. It was the first time I have been to the shop and it's very nice indeed. Wide range of gear on display at all kinds of prices and also a very tempting new and used vinyl selection, which I would have loved to have had more time to browse!
Nice one, Jules. Peter's always been one of the good guys and in the business for the right reasons. I just wish there were more like him, catering for real enthusiasts! :)
Marco.
julesd68
05-07-2013, 20:57
Absolutely Marco - it is indeed a shop for 'enthusiasts', you can tell that the minute you walk in the door. :thumbsup:
Absolutely Marco - it is indeed a shop for 'enthusiasts', you can tell that the minute you walk in the door. :thumbsup:
Julian,
Glad you have found a pearl. I intend mooching over there once work stops interfering so much with my listening life!:(
P
I would not hesitate to do business with Deco in the future. It was the first time I have been to the shop and it's very nice indeed. Wide range of gear on display at all kinds of prices and also a very tempting new and used vinyl selection, which I would have loved to have had more time to browse!
One of the best! Peter and Mark are true enthusiasts, honest and friendly to a fault. Well worth a trip to their 'Aladdin's cave' if you have never been.
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