View Full Version : Reference Fidelios - Amp bake off!
Thought I'd share some testing of various amplifiers with the Fidelios given the recent Tannoy and amplifier discussions, so have begged, borrowed or bought (!) quite a few amps to try this week, the winner will stay in the system.
The contenders:
VACPA60 monos (60wpc KT88 based beasties);
Quad 405/2;
Plinius P8 power amp (200wpc SS muscle amp);
EAR 869 (15wpc SE beauty);
Jolida JD302 (lovely little EL34 50wpc PP amp).
Anyone care to place bets on which amp sounds best to date? :eyebrows:
There is a clear leader so far but I'm staying tight lipped until all have had a fair whack.
The preamp used is the Croft micro25, which I'll be returning to standard gain as the low gain configuration used with the VAC amps isn't working well with some of the others so a little soldering work to do.
There'll be a full write up in due course but this may have a few surprises for all you Tannoyistas!
Audio Al
11-06-2013, 13:04
EAR 869 (15wpc SE beauty);)
Think the ear may struggle with the tannoys.
The jolida might be best on 2nd thoughts.
Some close shouts but no cigar as yet!
I have to say at this juncture though that the Jolida has to be the hifi bargain of the year! All you people curious about getting into valves look no further. The Jolida JD302 is as good as it gets this side of 4 grand as far as I'm concerned. It's astonishing. Uses German made output and power trannies, Rubicon and Claritycap capacitors, Blue ALPS volume control (motorised remote controlled) and has a bypass for use as a stand alone power amp or can be used in integrated mode. It may be assembled in China but I think that the only componenst which are Chinese sourced are the PCBs. Everything else seems to have been carefully picked from the Uk and Germany. Unlike almost all other valve amps at this price point, the preamp doesn't appear to be an oversight or add on either...it's very very good indeed. Output valves are EL34's biased for 50wpc in PP mode. KT77/88s can also be used. Casework is a little low tech andbudhet but that's ok as it means you're not sinking half your budget into an unecessary bling solid machined lump of aluminium, you're paying instead for great design and internal componentry.
I used it with Stock EL34's before switching to KT88s and re-biasing accordingly. Bass grip and power are phenomenal. It doesn't seem to like high impedance output sources though and sounds a little dark and shut in driven by a valve preamp or a valve phonostage. Feed it a SS line level signal and use its own preamp and it's a stunner. Best I've ever heard at the price and possibly the best I've ever heard with the Tannoys when the Droplet is used as a source. Decent cables are a must with it too. Massive scale and dynamics, lovely balanced tonality. Less congested when used with KT88s but the stock EL34s are pretty good. Price? New cost is around £1400. It's a steal at that price. Jolida's main market is the internal USA market so profits are much lower on export models such as the UK spec Jolidas. Had it been a UK company making these in china I have no doubt they'd be selling much dearer given the impressive internal component quality.
I'll add little snippets on the others as time goes by :eyebrows:
A few of the contenders:
VACPA60 Monos:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6883_zps979e5e67.jpg
EAR 869se:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6892_zps780cfdfb.jpg
Jolida JD302 CRC:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6895_zpsf10c6476.jpg
Plinius P8:
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6896_zps6f85e3b7.jpg
Plinius in the sysetm at the minute.
Using the speakers as temporary amplifier stands for two of the others!
The trouble Paul is that the Jolida looks completely shit.
You need a real amp as in:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9151&stc=1&d=1228170511
You are welcome to try it but you'll have to come and pick it up. It needs a wee fix to one of the PCB tracks interface with a tube socket, but it actually works as is. Between us both I'm sure we'll fix it. Might let it go at a reasonable price too.
I've done quite a bit of work on it anyway - new caps throughout and new potentiometers.
Interested?
Audio Al
11-06-2013, 18:04
What is it ?
Wow, what a beast :stalks:
Last time I saw that many glass bottles together in one place was on a milk float Justin :lol:
Looks pretty amazing but the bill for valve replacements and time to bias the thing up must be equally as amazing...
Thanks for the offer Justin, but I reckon I'm probably sorted ;)
Audio Al
11-06-2013, 18:07
Last time I saw that many glass bottles together in one place was on a milk float Justin
Now that IS funny :lol::lol::lol::D:D:D
Ali Tait
11-06-2013, 18:22
The Quad?
Looks pretty amazing but the bill for valve replacements and time to bias the thing up must be equally as amazing...
Thanks for the offer Justin, but I reckon I'm probably sorted ;)
Sounds like you've fallen for the one that only looks good undressed. And paid good money for her probably...:D
Anyway what looks like bias pots are actually LED valve fault indicators. She's an auto-bias jobbie.
50 Watts ultra-linear push pull and cheap to re-valve as JJ EL84s sound great in it. Al - it's a Bill Beard BB100. It sounds very nice with the right speakers - very sweet indeed.
The Quad?
I hadn't included the old stalwart (or rather fully refurbished and fettled stalwart!) in the bake off as I've already decided to part with it to raise funds. However, like most 405/2s its very competent, powerful and smooth. I can see why Quad 405s were so popular and remain so today. It just lacks a little sparkle compared with the illustrious company it finds itself in. Safe, competent and powerful would sum up the Quad.
Ali Tait
11-06-2013, 18:33
I guess it has to be the Plinius then.
Sounds like you've fallen for the one that only looks good undressed. And paid good money for her probably...:D
Anyway what looks like bias pots are actually LED valve fault indicators. She's an auto-bias jobbie.
50 Watts ultra-linear push pull and cheap to re-valve as JJ EL84s sound great in it. Al - it's a Bill Beard BB100. It sounds very nice with the right speakers - very sweet indeed.
It's such a close call at the minute Justin, that I haven't yet decided. A few days listening isn't enough. It needs longer to get to the heart of my favourite recordings and put each through its paces.
Next up is the Plinius P8.
As you'd have every right to expect from an amp than can punch 200 watts into 8 Ohms or closer to 300 into 4 Ohms, it sounds muscular, unstrained and unflappable in much the same way a Naval ship of the line from the 1800's may have been, brandishing its big guns as if to say "if you think you're hard enough, come and have a go".
This is just an illusion though as the Plinius isn't an uncouth monster, its possibly one of the most refined and valve like SS amps I've ever had the pleasure of auditioning. Its a given that any muscle amp like this will grip just about any speaker with an iron fist and Plinius is no different. Bass is immense in extension and control. It delivers a visceral knock out punch that most valve amps couldn't muster and does it so cleanly, you're left wondering what just hit you in the guts! No overhang, no boom, just straight in there with a knockout blow. That's with thumpy music. Play it organ and the low notes are contained admirably and presented with alarming realism but surprisingly with slightly less tonal character than I'm used to. Perhaps this is the curse of valve amps which, lets face it, are coloured (isn't all hifi in some respects?) but in a way which adds to the music.
Moving on with the music and the Plinius, it's clear, is another pretty special amp. It has the poise, delicacy and atmospheric sound staging and detail of the best single ended valve amps. It's uncanny just how valve-like it is in this respect, but once or twice I caught it out. Hugh Masekela's albums, especially the much hyped and over-played (at hifi shows :lol:) "Hope" album contains some amazing dynamics with track 12 (Stimela) famously having a range of over 60 or 70dB. It was this track that I first noticed the chink in the attractive armour plating of the mighty Plinius. Whereas the valve amps struggled in outright dynamic terms, they did manage to hold the picture together well, with the EAR being particularly well focussed. The plinius started to harden up a little and there was a slight congested quality to the music as the volume went past comfortable and into hearing damage territory. In fairness, it probably wasn't using more than 20% of its power reserves and I was probably approaching the safe input power for the speakers (ahem...it was LOUD), but pushed hard, the little single ended EAR was the only amp that really held it all together. Thats another story though...
The Plinius is a class act. Perhaps it's too smooth and too good for its own good? Sounds daft, as it hardly put a foot wrong and remained supremely musical throughout but more extended listening is needed to draw any firm conclusions.
Plinius P8 (continued)
After being in the system overnight (plinius recommend an extended warm up for the P8) and an early start this morning, the final conclusions on the amp are ready.
First impressions are generally flawed I find when it comes to hifi. The initial detail and airiness experienced on a few tracks yesterday sounded altogether darker today. At first I thought that my exuberant playing levels yesterday had blown the tweeters but that isn't the case. I changed album after album, but with the Tannoys, whilst keeping a sense of iron control and possessing genuine power, this amp failed to excite. It sounded a little shut in and very polite. In a brighter system voiced along the lines of a lot of modern loudspeakers I dare say it would be more balanced and a good choice of amp. The Croft preamp was not helping as with the current NOS valves it does have a somewhat dark balance with some amps, attested to by direct comparison with a passive pre recently. Perhaps a passive into the Plinius would have worked better, who knows, but I am not about to start reshuffling the front end of the system.
The Plinius is now out of the race.
The EAR 869 went back in, and its pretty astonishing but 15 watts (and clean watts too) of valve power, with big choked supplies and a little negative feedback works wonders with the Tannoys. Its the first SE amp that's ever worked properly with them (although not the first to sound nice. The Mastersound was wonderful but lacked low end grip). I wouldn't consider any SE amp any more which used zero feedback. Despite the reasons given by manufacturers about purity of sound, it is to my mind bad design practice as it means way too high output impedance which always results in flappy bass cones when used with anything except full range horn speakers.
jandl100
13-06-2013, 06:37
P'raps it would be interesting to try my little Krellian Baby? ... seems like it's the other side of the solid state coin to the Plinius. Smooth, polite and dark it is not! :nono: :eyebrows: Mayhap fed by a little passive pre I am currently in lurv with?
jandl100
13-06-2013, 07:09
I hadn't included the old stalwart (or rather fully refurbished and fettled stalwart!) in the bake off as I've already decided to part with it to raise funds. However, like most 405/2s its very competent, powerful and smooth. I can see why Quad 405s were so popular and remain so today. It just lacks a little sparkle compared with the illustrious company it finds itself in. Safe, competent and powerful would sum up the Quad.
Yep, that's similar to what I found with a Quad 606. Initially, it sounded fabulously focussed - imaging contrast really standing out nicely. But after a while I realised it was just missing out on a layer of detail/rez - so that the "blurring" effect of low level detail and subtle ambience cues was missing, making individual musicians stand out against a falsely black background.
P'raps it would be interesting to try my little Krellian Baby? ... seems like it's the other side of the solid state coin to the Plinius. Smooth, polite and dark it is not! :nono: :eyebrows: Mayhap fed by a little passive pre I am currently in lurv with?
If I was following my own advice and choosing with my head, that would be an interesting and technically good match Jerry. Despite the drawbacks of valves, I still prefer the good points of a decent valve amp to most SS amps I've tried. If you happen to be passing though... :whistle:
Had a day of listening yesterday in between completing a few orders and decided that the Croft pre needed modding, so the soldering iron came out and I've swapped out the feedback resistors for more gain (returned it to standard) which has made a positive difference with the 869 amp (was having to use the pre wound fully up prior to this). Still impressed how that 869 manages to pack such a punch with just 15 watts a side! Balance is a bit lean though which whilst fine on some well recorded material might grate after a while. Could be down to the driver valves used (I note that one isn't the ECC88 recommended but is instead a PC88 and they are not really compatible).
Swapped out the EL34s in the Jolida for KT88s for a second time and re-evaluated. Whilst much cleaner and closer to the 869 in character with the KT88s, it's lacking that EL34 midrange magic and bass heft. Despite what I am told RE the Jolida, I'm not so sure its a good idea to run KT88s for long in it because the heater current and voltage are a lot more than for the EL34s. KT77s might be a closer swap but the 88's didn't stay in long for this reason. I think that with better quality 34's (I loathe EH34's,....they always sound so congested), this little Jolida would rock. A very impressive little amp indeed. As Justin mentioned, it's not much to look at but if you can see past the looks, then there's practically nothing to touch it for the money in valve or SS guise as far as I'm concerned (its what my ears tell me anyway).
The EAR is a class act and built like a tank. More listening needed!
VACPA60s:
Back in the system and immediately apparent that these amps seem to dig an octave deeper than anything else tried to date, have a neutral toned mid range and good treble extension, although the latter can get a bit spitty if provoked too hard, especially in Triode mode. Much much better in Ultralinear.
They don't have the detail, finesse or delicacy of the EAR 869, and surprisingly don't have quite as much punch due to a lower damping factor. The EAR is the more "hifi" sounding, accurate and articulate but with a punch hidden behind its back ready to put you straight on its apparent manners when the need arises. I like amp/speaker combinations that can make me jump!
Up against the Jolida, and its apparent that the Jolida has the edge on bass control, plus it has a much fuller mid range. The Jolida's treble detail is a little shut in by comparison and it gets more congested as the pace picks up but is never short of entertaining. The VAC amps stay very composed, except that deep bass needs more control,. and something very strange happens in the lower mid range when the volume is advanced. It starts to sit a bit further back in the mix lending a mix of slight bass distortion and upper mid brightness come to the fore. It would probably be more neutral sounding with the 15 inch drivers which tend to sound a little fuller in the mid range anyway. On the whole, the VACs are powerful but lack a little control and even handedness which can be entertaining or distracting depending on your mood or the music genre being played.
The VACs are now sold anyway, so are no longer in the race as I want something a little more analytical to help the finishing touches on fine tuning the loudspeakers.
Jolida JD302CRC
First impressions of this little amp were pleasing and I've seen no reason to change my mind. First impressions are always just that when it comes to hifi and extended listening is needed to get to the heart of any component. This has been in and out of the system for much of the week now and has never been anything less than entertaining. It has to be one of the hifi bargains of the year and head and shoulders ahead of any competition originating in the Far East. The Jolida's final assembly and quality inspections are all done in Maryland, USA with the PCBs and wiring loom coming from their own factory in China. Whilst the cost cutting was initially off-putting, particularly the use of plastic automotive connectors for the PCB wiring loom, it makes perfect sense to keep production costs down. The impressive list of names under the bonnet including Rubycon, Claritycap, Blue ALPs etc together with those German made transformers make a difference, as does the design which is no 1960's clone done badly as so many from the Far East tend to be. This is the real deal. Its like fine dining served up on paper plates by fast food staff. The trappings are all to a price but the substance remains. This pretty well sums up what I thought about it driving the Tannoys.
Bass is impressive. Deep and better controlled than the VACs. It doesn't have the last half octave of the VAC amps but few do. The treble detail is also cleaner and more satisfying. Its only the mids that can tend to let it down as with complex musical passages, things can start to sound a little muddled and voices can become a little congested, but that's not really a criticism as it only shows up with more complex passages when pushed hard. It has great dynamics and gets on with entertaining music without drawing too much attention to the slight hiccups. It works very well indeed with Tannoys and I thoroughly recommend anyone in the market for an amp to drive their Tannoys at sensible prices, to put this one at the top of their list, unless the high end beckons. You can spend three times as much and quite frankly end up with less. KT77s clean up the midrange appreciably by all accounts and the KT88s I tried certainly did. My valve of choice probably would be a good EL34 (and here I do like JJ's) or KT77s which can be biased to deliver at their designed max output. Quiescent current at 400mV bias is 40mA as the resistor used in circuit is a 10Ohm value. The power supply is designed to take 88's but the circuit is optimised for EL34/KT77 valve varieties.
The in-build preamp stage is also a stellar performer at the price. If anything, it's more open sounding than the Croft which wasn't a good match for it. I'd say a good passive pre would work wonders with the Jolida. Its been agonising trying to make my mind up between this and the other finalist. The fact the the other finalist is three times the cost should and does say something very positive about the Jolida. Its a rare beast in the hifi world. Something that represents reasonable value comparatively speaking, is very flexible, right down to the MP3/minijack input and remote control to the clever easy bias system and delivers music with the Tannoys in a way that is very rewarding. The few vices can easily be overlooked and I don't reckon would grow into big problems down the line. I'd be happy to buy this amp, and settle into the music and forget hifi for a long while; This brings us to the other finalist!
EAR 869
From the off, this amp stunned me. It may only be 15 watts per channel AND single ended (albeit with some feedback used) but it packs a punch way beyond it's weight. Whatever I previously thought about the 50 watt figure being the minimum recommendation for Tannoys (ANY Tannoys), then this has to be the exception to that rule. It sounds more like a 100 watt SS and In hours of listening, I haven't plucked up the courage to max out the volume (at least now that I've increased the preamp gain) for fear of bursting my ear drums and those of the neighbours.
The character couldn't be more different to all the other amps, which shared similar traits with some being stronger in one area or another. The EAR seems to be what Jerry would call "high-Rez". Very analytical and incisive but without quite over-stepping the mark into fatiguingly bright. Saying that, it does show up any shortcomings in recordings and can reward with life like in the room presence on one hand and have you diving for the ear defenders on the other. Imaging is possibly the most focussed of the lot and it can play loud or quietly with great delicacy. I'm not surprised that this amp has been nominated for so many awards. A little curious in design, it uses pentodes developed for the TV industry for CRT screens and was selected due to its linearity. Its this linearity that lends itself to a very fine audio output valve. Grid and screen connections are unusual and configured so that the valve runs in enhanced triode mode, hence it's often confused as a single ended triode amp, which its's strictly speaking not.
The EAR is beautifully finished and of all the amps is the one that most people would want gracing their racks, myself included, but I can't be blinded by looks as its sound that matters! The most impressive thing after the imaging, focus and detail of this amp has to be the bass slam it can muster. It actually "out-slammed" all the other valve amps on test but that was partly an illusion as it simply doesn't have the power to pressurise the room like the Plinius or Jolida could (and the major difference is that they could do it without breaking into a sweat). It did need driving hard with the Tannoys to get this slam, but that's understandable. With complex music such as classical, this is where the EAR scored highly for me. With my system destroyer album (Boito-Mefestofeles), the EAR refused to allow the Tannoys to become ruffled at any stage. Passages of the massed choirs which can bring most systems to their knees with a muddled distorted crescendo remained admirably focussed and distinct. Few amp/speaker combinations have ever been able to pull this off in my systems. The downside to all of this faithfulness to the recording is a slight lack of weight compared with just about any of the other amps which lends a lean balance to music. After extended listening, I began to find this a bit fatiguing but only after one 10 hour stint!
So there we have it. The two finalists are the EAR 859se and the Jolida JD302CRC. I would be happy with either but cannot have both. The final decision will be made in the morning!
System used was:
Amps: all as described on this thread
Phonostages: Croft and EAR 834
SUT: RFC-MC1
Preamp: Croft Micro25
CDP: Consonance Mini Droplet
Speakers: Reference Fidelio
Cablles: ICs were Reference Plutos, Reference Neptunes and Reference Mercuries; Speaker cable used was Talk3.
A hard predicment to find yourself in, Paul. Really tough work:)
Just hope you feel you made the right decision a few weeks down the line...
jandl100
14-06-2013, 07:48
.... Just hope you feel you made the right decision a few weeks down the line...
Well, I think Paul has now overtaken me in the Boxswap Stakes - and by quite a considerable margin! :respect:
Who knows what the future may bring to RFC Mansions. :)
Well, I think Paul has now overtaken me in the Boxswap Stakes - and by quite a considerable margin! :respect:
Who knows what the future may bring to RFC Mansions. :)
I don' think that I have Jerry ;) Most of the amps tested were offered to me on trial/loan all bar a few. Part of speaker development is that once the measurements and design are initially complete, the listening and fine tuning starts so the electrical instruments are swapped for ears! Interestingly, having measured the response of the speakers using the amps on test between 28Hz and 8KHz (critical hearing range) I've found a huge difference in response varying between over 20dB (peak to trough difference within that FR) to just 6dB. This is proof to me that Tannoys are super critical of the partnering electronics and that not all amps are the same irrespective of claims :lol:
One amp I haven't yet mentioned but need to is the Radford STA25. Radford Revival were kind enough to come and help me with some testing a few weeks back and they brought an STA25 with them. I have to say that in addition to the finalists above, the Radford was one of the best performers with the Tannoys, and the measurements for it were within 7dB across the spectrum which for a valve amp is exceptional from my own testing of others. Its output impedance is within 0.8Ohms (worst case) and this goes a long way to explaining its performance...ie a properly designed valve amp. That amp would have to be included on the list of recommended amps for Tannoys and indeed was often partnered with Tannoys back in the day.
Final listening this morning and whetever the outcome, the amp selected will be in the system for a long time. ;)
jandl100
14-06-2013, 08:13
Final listening this morning and whatever the outcome, the amp selected will be in the system for a long time. ;)
Recorded for posterity. :D
[only teasing ;)]
jandl100
14-06-2013, 08:15
... given the amp synergy situation you have found with Tannoy drivers, perhaps RFC should offer an amp / speaker bundled package with the Fidelios?
They're not really any more difficult to drive or match than any other 12 inch Tannoy I've heard in that respect Jerry except that they deliver more bass and are free of much of the box colourations which plague older designs. Whilst happy to recommend amplifiers, I'm sure that people would rather choose their own!
Decision made:
(drum-roll)..........
and the winner is.......
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n577/24pacman/Hifi/_MG_6892_zps780cfdfb.jpg
It may not have the bass extension of more powerful amps, but my experience to date is that all hifi is a compromise and unless you have significant disposable income, you have to be prepared to make compromises but only ones you can live with.
What the EAR lacks in bass power, it makes up for in bass control (that negative feedback) and the highlight for me was its incredible resolution and insight into recordings. It strips everything bare but in a most realistic way...to coin a tired phrase, it lifts the veil off a lot of music that other amps struggle with but it has that magic ingredient that in doing so it doesn't sound bright or edgy. That's what draws you into the music, with the Tannoys you feel more involved and the emotions of the pieces you play seem to be conveyed without the hifi dominating. The caveat is that first class source components are required to get the best from the pairing.
The Top 3 recommendations for Tanny 12 inch HPDs from the list I've tried have to be:
1. EAR 869se
2. Radford STA25
3. Jolida 302CRC BUT only when a decent set of valves is used, as in this circuit the valve choice seems to make a big difference.
For ultimate bass depth, the VAC amps win (but not ultimate bass control).
The safe "all-rounder" has to go to the Quad 405/2 which is no real surprise. Its a competent amp.
A totally unexpected result but there we are.
My thanks for this hifi adventure go to the following people who have been very helpful and supportive:
Steve and Will Moores (Radford Revival);
Jake (who knows who he is:lol:);
Robert Airey at Airedaudio.co.uk (Jolida distributor)...Robert is an excellent chap to deal with, a real gentleman, so if anyone is curious to try a Jolida amp, Robert's your man.
Firebottle
14-06-2013, 13:17
That doesn't come as a surprise to me Paul.
Having looked at the schematic for the EAR I can appreciate what a wizard Tim DeParavicini is.
Not to mention the legendary quality of EAR transformers. If I was tempted to build an SE amp the 859 or 869 would be the one.
:cool:Alan
Don't tell the wife but I have enquired about the availability of output tranformers :D
That doesn't come as a surprise to me Paul.
Having looked at the schematic for the EAR I can appreciate what a wizard Tim DeParavicini is.
Not to mention the legendary quality of EAR transformers. If I was tempted to build an SE amp the 859 or 869 would be the one.
:cool:Alan
Don't tell the wife but I have enquired about the availability of output tranformers :D
The transformers have it Alan. The schematics also show the novel use of the valve (ie the way he's connected the grid and screen) which is biased in Class A for the full power range. I guess it's partially this that explains its punch since most Class A amps seem to have greater power than their rated power suggests. Tim claims low distortion for the entire bandwidth too, and surprisingly recommends high capacitance speaker cables which normally I'd shy away from as they can present the amp with unnecessarily higher reactive loading than a traditional cable design (lower capacitance).
To be fair to the little Jolida, it was one of Jolida's budget end amps, but it speaks volumes how it ran things so close. I will be looking further at this brand. It seems to get the difficult compromise between cost and performance spot on with the incidentals such as casings being where costs are cut. I like that. It means you're paying for what's on the inside, not what it looks like.
Audio Al
14-06-2013, 14:26
What do I win :lol:
What do I win :lol:
It's a fair Cop Al! :lol:
It was a surprise to me though as I had written off any single ended amp doing the business.
Audio Al
14-06-2013, 15:34
It's a fair Cop Al! :lol:
It was a surprise to me though as I had written off any single ended amp doing the business.
;)
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