Theta or Young DAC?

[Jonneville]

After working in Hong Kong in the early '90s, where there were dozens of shops selling expensive audio gear which I had previously only seen in magazines, I became hooked on heavyweight American gear (all Robert Harley's fault!). Partly due to climate - the humidity was not record-friendly - I had to make the reluctant switch to CDs. A Wadia would have been my first choice of CDP but was too expensive after buying VTL valve amps and Logans, so I had to compromise - in any case, I intended to go back to vinyl the minute I returned to England.

Roll on 20 years and I have a TEAC VRDS 25 cdp and a Wadia 8 transport for silver disc duties.

I have an M2Tech Evo DAC ready to try (hopefully tonight!) but am wondering about how an older Theta dac would perform, or how much of an improvement the more expensive Young would be over the Evo?

I only have a very cheap Toslink to try with the Evo but that will be replaced with something decent like an Oyaide silver from Mark Grant.

I should add that right now, I am looking at the dac purely for use with the VRDS 25 and/or Wadia.

There seem to be quite a few Thetas about right now - Pro Prime, Progeny and Basic III.

Any thoughts would be very welcome.

Regards

Jon'.

[DSJR]

AT THE TIME, I compared the Theta's you mentioned to the cheaper competition and they did stand head and shoulders above them. The thing is, and others here might not agree with me, that DAC chips and all the ancilliary chips that surround them have condensed further into far simpler AND CHEAPER packages. Some even have good audio output stages built into them, removing another place where designers can mess things up. Power supply quality is still all-important though IMO and again, here is a place where some so-called 'designers' can still balls things up if they're not absolutely careful.

So my suggestion is to regard and enjoy vintage Theta as the great and now affordable stuff it undoubtedly is, but accept the fact that you could possibly equal or even better many aspects of the performance with the best new sub £500 or so DACs out there. Many of the sub £200 models of quality seem to be USB only, so no good for your purpose - the chips are really cheap (as in a quid or two) to the larger manufacturers such as Fiio and Behringer for example, who buy them in zillions...

One well liked DAC here is the Beresford Bushmaster. At least one chap here has compared it very favourably to some of the Theta's you mention and in addition to the basic unit/supply, there's a host of additional linear supplies available, claiming improvements in performance, by which time you're into £400 or more - your choice. By then, you're in Rega DAC territory, and this one has become a bit of a benchmark I think. I'm not saying you can't buy better for less than the Rega, but it's wide availability, good sales and sound-for-pound and great after-sales care should you need it ensures a healthy market. A few do come up used for £375 or so, by people who like to try new things, but it's a safe-as-houses DAC that should be in the running.

[purite audio]

Jon Hi, the M2Tech EVO is an async USB to s/pdif (and other outputs) converter, their Young is a 24/384 Dac with the async USB built in.
Keith.

[apollo]

Jon,

Most older Theta dacs, especially the Pro series, have substantially better analog stages and better power supplies than most of the modern dacs of comparable prices.. though the perception of the resultant of sound quality may vary among listeners.
A Theta Pro Gen-Va(18/44) is probably the best DAC I have heard.. if I ever decide to go strictly red-book and don't need high-res capabilities, I wont hesitate to go with that.

However, if you think you will like to keep the option of listening to high-res music open, you will have to choose something else. The Young is a good dac for the price, especially if you have it paired with an external power supply.

[Werner Berghofer]

Jon,


There seem to be quite a few Thetas about right now - Pro Prime, Progeny and Basic III

Mike Moffat, formerly hardware designer of Theta and now co-founder of Schiit Audio (http://schiit.com/about/about-schiit/), often has claimed in public that the current Schiit DAC models outperform the Theta DACs. I don’t know if this is true or just marketing speech.

Werner.

[walpurgis]

I've used the Theta Cobalt and Chroma in the past and they are to my ear superior to any modern or older budget DAC I've heard. I currently have as my back-up DAC a Theta DS Pro Progeny at the moment and this is a very good unit, far better than the Cobalt and Chroma.

[Yomanze]

I've used the Theta Cobalt and Chroma in the past and they are to my ear superior to any modern or older budget DAC I've heard. I currently have as my back-up DAC a Theta DS Pro Progeny at the moment and this is a very good unit, far better than the Cobalt and Chroma.

I also have a DS Pro Progeny as a backup, it is very analogue and natural in comparison to newer DACs with huge dynamics. Walked all over my Beresford.

[Yomanze]

A
There seem to be quite a few Thetas about right now - Pro Prime, Progeny and Basic III.


I would avoid the Prime as it's the only Theta to use a bitstream (1 bit) DAC. The Progeny is a classic, would also take a punt at a Basic III, which uses very good DACs.

[Gazjam]

Cant speak for the Progeny or Theta Dacs but have a Young with the matching aluminium finish linear PSU.
Went from a hot rodded Caiman to a Rega to the Young.

A big step up between the three Dacs, the Young is fantastic, maybe the last Dac I'll buy.
Taking it to Owston next weekend if anyone wants a listen.

[Mark Grant]

There is a Young DAC for sale on the forums, a great price with a PSU.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?25930-FS-M2Tech-Young-DAC-Mark-Grant-PSU&highlight=young

[MCRU]

Cant speak for the Progeny or Theta Dacs but have a Young with the matching aluminium finish linear PSU.
Went from a hot rodded Caiman to a Rega to the Young.

A big step up between the three Dacs, the Young is fantastic, maybe the last Dac I'll buy.
Taking it to Owston next weekend if anyone wants a listen.

good luck with that dude as owston is this weekend

enjoy yourself :lol:

[Ali Tait]

See you there!

[Gazjam]

good luck with that dude as owston is this weekend

enjoy yourself :lol:

I'm still on Sunday time... :)

[Gazjam]

There is a Young DAC for sale on the forums, a great price with a PSU.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?25930-FS-M2Tech-Young-DAC-Mark-Grant-PSU&highlight=young

Cant believe that's not sold yet.
Just bad timing for a lot of folk I guess.

[icehockeyboy]

I had a Pro Progeny A in my system for a few years. It had the " sexy" extras, like the Goliath PSU and a ThetaTLC anti jitter device, totalling about £1700 RRP.

Guess what?

I replaced it with the better sounding Beresford Bushmaster at 1/8 the price.

[Yomanze]

I had a Pro Progeny A in my system for a few years. It had the " sexy" extras, like the Goliath PSU and a ThetaTLC anti jitter device, totalling about £1700 RRP.

Guess what?

I replaced it with the better sounding Beresford Bushmaster at 1/8 the price.

Did you A/B them though Craig? As far as I'm aware you sold the Theta (to me), and thought that you weren't missing much with a Squeezebox Touch in-situ, which is a way inferior unit.

[icehockeyboy]

Did you A/B them though Craig? As far as I'm aware you sold the Theta (to me), and thought that you weren't missing much with a Squeezebox Touch in-situ, which is a way inferior unit.

That is true, so I was relying on aural memory, so I did not have the theta to A /B with, maybe I shouldn't say what I'd did!:rolleyes: but if my aural memory wasn't telling me fibs, I genuinely did/do think that the Beresford out performs it at a Much lower price.......

I can say that the Touch sounds wonderful with the Bushmaster!

A certain Jerry Jacobs agrees with me on that point.

[icehockeyboy]

I also have a DS Pro Progeny as a backup, it is very analogue and natural in comparison to newer DACs with huge dynamics. Walked all over my Beresford.

Which Beresford do you have?

[Yomanze]

Which Beresford do you have?

TC-7510 which was a nice step up from supposedly good vintage CDPs such as the Rotel 965BX.

[Jonneville]

Thank you everyone for your replies. It's interesting as I've been wondering if older CDPs and DACs might be reassessed rather in the same way as idler drive TTs have been. Those Thetas were expensive when new but a Young and Palmer combo is the same or more at nearly $2,500. I'm starting to edge towards the Young but the jury's still out!

Regards

Jon'.

[purite audio]

The rrp of the Young is £950 and the Palmer £800, Unless you have really dodgy electricity you will not need the Palmer.
Keith.

[Yomanze]

Thank you everyone for your replies. It's interesting as I've been wondering if older CDPs and DACs might be reassessed rather in the same way as idler drive TTs have been. Those Thetas were expensive when new but a Young and Palmer combo is the same or more at nearly $2,500. I'm starting to edge towards the Young but the jury's still out!

Regards

Jon'.

I would anticipate that the Young will be a step above and a no brainer at the price shown in this thread...



Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[purite audio]

There is a second hand Young on Pink Fish ATM,
Keith.

[icehockeyboy]

TC-7510 which was a nice step up from supposedly good vintage CDPs such as the Rotel 965BX.


Having also owned a 7510, I honestly believe it is nowhere near as good as a Bushmaster.

The Theta replaced the 7510, and the Bushmaster replaced the Theta. :)

[Jonneville]

Yep, the Young makes the best sense as it also keeps options open for the future. That one on PFM has gone but they seem to be like buses at the moment - think I'll have the case anodised black to go with the Avondale psu I have my eye on.

Any recommendations for the transport/dac interconnect? I'll have the choice between AES, coax with RCA or coax with BNC? If 75ohm, I was thinking Oyaide silver (new) or s/h Nordost Silver Shadow as they are about the same price.

Regards

Jon'.

[Ali Tait]

Best sp/dif cable I've heard is the MCRU Ultimate.

[Jonneville]

Yep, the Young makes the best sense as it also keeps options open for the future. That one on PFM has gone but they seem to be like buses at the moment - think I'll have the case anodised black to go with the Avondale psu I have my eye on.

Any recommendations for the transport/dac interconnect? I'll have the choice between AES, coax with RCA or coax with BNC? If 75ohm, I was thinking Oyaide silver (new) or s/h Nordost Silver Shadow as they are about the same price.

Regards

Jon'.

Cable needs to be BNC at the Wadia end (or AES).

Regards

Jon'.

[clap]

As you know I use my battery powered Young with my VRDS transport. Sounds great. Detailed, dynamic but not tiring. The Mark grant cable is great too.

[Ali Tait]

Cable needs to be BNC at the Wadia end (or AES).

Regards

Jon'.

I'm sure David would terminate accordingly.

[Gazjam]

I'm sure David would terminate accordingly.

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1322/terminator2judgementdayf.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/692/terminator2judgementdayf.jpg/)

Dont ask him if he's grumpy though...

[Gazjam]

Yep, the Young makes the best sense as it also keeps options open for the future. That one on PFM has gone but they seem to be like buses at the moment - think I'll have the case anodised black to go with the Avondale psu I have my eye on.

Regards

Jon'.

I have the original version of that PSU (silver aluminium finish) with my Young Dac and it really adds to what it does.
Cleans things up and adds refinement on the top.
Young sounds fantastic with stock psu, but another level with the regulated linear.

Not heard a battery supply.

[Alan]

Hi Jon

I just found your PM from WigWam, but I thought I'd join your discussion here.

I had the DS Pro Progeny and the DS Pro Basic 3 at the same time, and now I have a Young with a better PS. I don't miss the Thetas, though I certainly look back at them with fondness! They had a weighty, authoritative presentation, pure quality really, and as the chap who bought the Basic said, an almost totally 'analogue' sound. As someone who believes it possible to better analogue with digital, I think he meant it as a compliment!

The Basic 3 is the better DAC, and has a tight bass - almost surprisingly light actually given Theta's reputation. It isn't really light, it's just far better controlled. The Progeny sounds richer and warmer in the bass, more characterful for sure, but it wasn't as controlled or refined (it had great 'slam'). Having said that, I would absolutely understand anyone preferring the Progeny as it was a bit of a riot, full of character. Great fun - perhaps it was more 'analogue'? ;)

I went from the Thetas to a modern DACMagic and a Caiman - both at the same time - as stop gaps (until the M2Tech DACs arrived in the UK). They were both superior DACs for sure, and not just because they could handle higher sample rates. They were able to extract more detail from CD, and were more neutral - yet they were both somehow unexciting after the Thetas. I mostly put this down to greater transparency and the time taken to acclimatise to it, but subjectively I would still prefer to live with either Theta.

When the Young arrived I was blown away by just about everything - the shocking level of detail it presented, the textural information, it's character (I dont think it's entirely neutral - it's on the livelier side of things), and the extraordinary bass. By which I mean the depth, warmth, texture and utter control, compared to all the other DACs. Somehow it manages to interfere with the music less than anything else I have heard, although it gives a front row, 'in your face' presentation, rather than the slightly laid back 'Theta' presentation.

I use my Young in a computer audio setup, via USB - yet almost all my music is ripped CDs. I think this to be superior to CD replay, based on comparing it to a Pioneer stable platter CDP and the original Discmagic transport (the one with three transformers).

Short answer - you'll love just about any of these DACs . :)

[Jonneville]

Excellent - many thanks for all your replies, especially Alan - guess this thread was rather aimed at you!

Spanner in the works - I was all set for the Young then Mrs J (who is the main user of digital, in particular CDs), said that she would really like the ability to use headphones and remote volume control (aargh!). Sorry folks.

Wadia 121 seems like a possibility - I like the idea of trickle-down technology from their more expensive products, should be good for that "Wadia sound" I'm looking for? Someone told me he found it hard to distiguish between the 121 and using the dac in the £14k S7i. I also like the idea of mixing old and new Wadia products and essentially hot rodding the Wadia 8 with a modern "engine".

I gather that Audio Research is now part of the Fine Sounds S.p.A. group, which also owns Wadia, so ARC does some assembly and test work for select Wadia Digital components, including the 121. Here's some 121s undergoing burn-in in the ARC factory prior to final testing (see link here http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/meet-your-maker-hi-fi-visits-audio-research-corporation).

http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/P3261215.JPG

I'm wondering if Wadia introduced these smaller components - 170/171/151 and 121 - as a short term idea to inject some cash into the business? The 170 and 171 have been discontinued, so how long before the 121 ceases production? Could it be that we'll look back on the 121 in a few years and realise that it was a great little dac which was a ludicrously cheap way of buying into that expensive Wadia sound?

Anyone tried a 121?

Regards

Jon'.

[StanleyB]

Spanner in the works - I was all set for the Young then Mrs J (who is the main user of digital, in particular CDs), said that she would really like the ability to use headphones and remote volume control (aargh!).
I haven't seen a remote controlled headphone output on a DAC. I reckon most people sit close enough to the DAC when listening through headphones, leaving out the need for a remote control.

[Jonneville]

I haven't seen a remote controlled headphone output on a DAC. I reckon most people sit close enough to the DAC when listening through headphones, leaving out the need for a remote control.

She wants to use the remote control when listening through the speakers.

Regards

Jon'.