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View Full Version : Speaker Stands Advice Required Please.



DaveK
22-04-2009, 13:04
Hi,
Some of you may already be aware that in the Gallery area I am being gently but firmly persuaded to invest in some speaker stands. Because the Budget Controller is very anti stands it is important that any stands look more like bits of furniture than mini oil rigs. Accordingly I am focussing on Custom rc60 stands in wood. These would be custom made to my precise requirements.
My floor is the usual construction of tongue and groove floorboards nailed to joists 4 feet above a concrete raft. On top of this I have laid a thin layer of sound deadening/insulation on top of which I have laid solid wood flooring, probably a total layer (floor boards, insulation and wood floring), of about 1 inch I guess. Currently my MS Mezzo 2 speakers are resting on a 2 inch granite isolation plinth on the floor.
Question 1: -
When advising the manufacturer of the required height of the stands do I continue to use the granite plinth (reduce the overall height required by 2" to accommodate the plinth)?
Question 2: -
Do I need the spikes on the bottom of the stands or will this depend on whether I sit them on the wooden floor or the plinth?
As must be obvious from the above, all this is new (black art) to me so please feel free to give me your feelings, no matter how basic or obvious.
Thanks in anticipation,
Dave.

Marco
22-04-2009, 14:08
Hi Dave,

You may get conflicting advice on this, as people's viewpoints are different, but based on considerable experience in this area I would recommend that you keep the granite plinths, using them effectively as your 'floor' (I like granite and consider it a fine material for this purpose), and allow for this in the required stand height you supply to the manufacturer :)

Also, I would try removing the spikes and simply sit your speaker stands on top of the granite plinths (certainly when adjusting positioning, especially 'toe-in'), but also afterwards, as you may prefer the effect. Much will depend on the acoustics of the room, speaker interaction, and/or your sonic preferences, so experiment with and without spikes to see which you prefer.

Make sure, too, that you try positioning the speakers with different amounts of distance from the back wall. Use familiar music to test this and choose the distance which you feel gives the right mix of good bass response and a clear and open sound without ‘boom’. Also, if possible, keep speaker cables away from the skirting board or back wall and out into the room more behind the speakers.

One thing that is critical is that once your speakers are in situ (on spikes or not), they must be ABSOLUTELY level in order that the drive units can perform as intended, and if using spikes, don't over-tighten them (simply 'nip' them up) as this can make for an overly bright, 'etched' sound.

Hope this helps. If you've got any further queries, fire away! :smoking:

Marco.

DaveK
22-04-2009, 14:17
Thanks Marco,
Just what I needed. I am keen to do it right first time if at all possible as I can't afford expensive mistakes (being a poor pensioner:))
Dave.

Spectral Morn
22-04-2009, 14:22
I would also use blobs of blue tack under the speakers to lock them onto the stand...prevents accidents and sounds better IMHO.

I agree with Marco about keeping the granite, I use similar but much thicker in my upstairs room and it prevents bass boom; if you have a poor floor. The tweeter of the speaker should be at ear height. Measure from floor to the position of your ears when sitting down normally (not slouching). So floor to ear height-height of granite and speaker height =height of stands needed.

Paul and his wife at Custom Design are nice people, I used to love dealing with them when in the trade. They do an acoustic steel top and bottom plate option for their speaker stands, which may be worth looking into. Raises the cost a bit though.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
22-04-2009, 14:25
Dave,
Since you've already invested in the granite slabs I think it would be a great idea for you to use them if you can. Some people might suggest putting spikes on the stands & cones under the plinths but I think you might find a more useful improvement by physically attaching the stone to the underside of the stands. One of the best value for money improvements I ever made to my system (in a previous incarnation) was to attach some steel plates to the bases of them to add mass. It cost me about £20 and every aspect of the sound was improved.

They will have tapped metal inserts in them to accept spikes. If you can align some new holes in the slabs with these you can then run bolts or some threaded bar through the granite & into the spike inserts. If you use dome headed bolts, you'll have (almost) point contact with the floor without piercing it & ruining the finish of your boards. Alternatively, you could attach some cones, or something similar, with double sided sticky tape to the bottom to keep the bolt heads off the floor. Put something like coins or similar under the cones to protect your floor.

Not only will your wife prefer the look, but I'm convinced it will sound better than the other method.

You could reduce the height of the stands accordingly, but I don't think it'll be a life or death problem if you don't. After all do you sit rigidly in your seat? I don't. Getting the tweeter level in the vicinity of your ears will be most of the battle won. But go for it if it's free!!

Marco
22-04-2009, 14:31
I would also use blobs of blue tack under the speakers to lock them onto the stand...prevents accidents and sounds better IMHO.


Agreed. This is an excellent tip and should be used in the absence of (or perhaps in preference of) upward-firing spikes on the speaker stand top plates :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn
22-04-2009, 14:44
Agreed. This is an excellent tip and should be used in the absence of (or perhaps in preference of) upward-firing spikes on the speaker stand top plates :)

Marco.

Should have said...one in each corner and three in a line from front to back and side to side of the stand, so it looks as viewed from the top as my diagram below. The blobs of blue tack don't need to be very big.

. . .
. . .
. . .

As to Chris's idea yes but drilling granite etc needs to be done by a monumental mason..DIY can be an issue as the type of drill needed must be mounted in some sort of a jig or a bench drill to stop slippage at the start and insure your holes are straight-from top to bottom. Monumental masons are probably used to crazy audiophiles asking them to do things other than making grave stones. However CD stands using acoustic steel work well by using a damping layer between the steel plates. The problem with adding lots of mass to your stands is it is possible you might increase bass to much....thus meaning you will have to move the speakers out from the wall. I would get the stands and try positioning etc and see what you think first.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
22-04-2009, 16:01
Dave,

What species of timber is your flooring - do you know? It looks like Oak to me. It appears to be of a parquet type construction (small staves). So when you laid it, did it come in the form of individual small staves, or were the small staves already made up into planks?
Also, is it 'floating' or attached through the insulation layer to the original floorboards?

(There is a reason for this seemingly unconnected line of questioning!)

Stratmangler
22-04-2009, 18:46
To keep cost down you could try building something like these http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/stubby_e.html , or following this route http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/akropolise.html


Chris:)

DaveK
22-04-2009, 20:18
Attn. Stratmangler
Thanks for the pointer - I will certainly follow it up and let you have my thoughts.
Attn. Cris Wazoo
Thanks for the interest. The main reason I gave the flooring details so much attention was that I suspected it could have some influence on what I was trying to achieve so not for a second did I think your questions were unrelated.
Of course I know what it is and yes, it is Oak - :eyebrows:well spotted - I (and Controller) chose it after much looking (despite the impression I might have given earlier, there is much more that we agree on than disagree) and I laid it, so I know it intimately. It was not cheap, mid range I'd say, in 3 layers, only the top of which is Oak, with a varnish finish. It was supplied in packs of 8 or 10 planks, all of which were the same width and length, and each plank is made up of 3 pieces wide of almost random lengths, i.e. each piece of plank is made up of 3 equally wide but almost random lengths of mini planks. In your terminology, 3 small staves made into planks. If I have confused rather than clarified the description please get back to me.
Each plank (large) sort of locks into the adjacent one at one side and one end and was lightly glued to keep it tight. The whole floor floats, i.e. it is not glued or otherwise attached to either the insulation or the original floorboards. This was the second such floor I have laid, the first being for my daughter and I learned much from the first time, for instance I did not use any cork expansion piece anywhere between plank and skirting board. Mine looks much neater than daughter's and there has been zero movement expansion that I can detect after 8 or 10 years.
Cheers,:cool:
Dave.

DaveK
22-04-2009, 20:33
Hi Chris Stratmangler,
I have had a look at your links, for which many thanks.
The Akropolis is definitely 'not on' - I just dont like the idea, it would violently clash with our other furniture and the Controller would probably divorce me (or have me certified :)) if I even showed them to her - sorry !!
The Stubby are nearer to our requirements but the central black plastic pipe still has the look of an oil rig about it.
This got me thinking. If I could replace the centre column with a 4 inch sqare piece of matching wood with a hole drilled through the centre to take the threaded rod we have a more attractive (to us) proposition. Nowhere to put the extra weight but I could probably live with that.
Meanwhile rc60 deluxes are the current preferred choice.
Thanks for your input and cheers,:cool:
Dave.

The Grand Wazoo
22-04-2009, 20:53
My reason for asking is that it may have some bearing on how your speakers react & what stand arrangement might work best.

I know a bit about wood, being in the forestry management business & I know a little about how different types of wood floors behave with speakers - I've always put wood flooring in my own house.

Your description tells me quite a lot actually. I would certainly use those granite bases if I were you because, no matter how flat & level everything was when you laid it, there will be some give in the layers of the floor. You may not be able to detect it, but it will cause tiny movements in the speaker/stand assembly as the drivers work. I'd say you would certainly benefit from the mass of those plinths - whether you attach them to the stands or not. If you place them directly on the floor as they already are, make sure there is no question of them rocking - even the tiniest bit.

The reason for the question about the species was because different densities of timber have different qualities. A dense, hard & tight grained wood like Maple will tend to be very reflective & give a brighter sound than something with a more open cell structure like Oak - even if they're both finished with the same polyurathane varnish. I didn't think to ask if yours is laminated wood - the lower layers are very likely made of Birch, which, though less dense, behaves a little like Maple. If, as you say, yours is not bog standard budget stuff, then the top surface will probably be relatively thick, so it will behave much like a solid Oak board - this is a good thing!

Please don't imagine that I go to the lengths of selecting my wood floor in order to improve my listening experience - but knowing the effects of what you have can help. My floor is solid Birch & if I use too much silver cabling, things get too bright, which didn't happen before with the original softwood floor.

Cheers

aquapiranha
22-04-2009, 21:10
Yes, when I had the standmounts on the SE24's I used blu-tak to secure the speakers to the top and two £10 granite chopping boards from tesco or somewhere. I did use the spikes, but I remain unconvinced as to their usefulness, believing that they are best suited to carpeted rooms to enable the spike to secure the stand to the floor underneath the carpet. IMO

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb256/aquapiranha/Sachiko/CIMG2980.jpg

You can make out the chopping board behind all the pieces of future speaker cabinet..

;-)

Beechwoods
22-04-2009, 21:36
I got a couple of those Tesco granite chopping boards to have a play with. I've seen a few people using them here and there. They are nicely made, and a nice price. Just about the right size for an average separate I think as well. I have two under my Lenco at the moment but am thinking of getting a single piece cut to size by a local stonemason. Beats sitting the deck on the carpet.

DaveK
22-04-2009, 21:49
:)Hi Chris and Steve,
Thanks for your inputs - all useful stuff !
Chris, I haven't the remotest idea what the lower 2 layers are but they are certainly NOT oak. The middle layer is less than solid shall we say (gaps being visible between them at random intervals). CORRECTION: - I have just popped up into the loft to have a look at the pieces left over and the bottom 2 layers appear to be, in fact, a single layer of 5 Ply. Of these 5 the top, middle and bottom layers seem to be about 1.5 mm and layers 2 and 4 seem to be about 1 mm, give or take. If it helps you to formulate a more specific recommendation I would be happy to post you a postage stamp sized sample
The thought of choosing your floor to provide the best acoustics ONLY does take the obsession to new heights (or depths):)
Cheers,:cool:
Dave.

Spectral Morn
22-04-2009, 21:51
I do rate spikes if for no other reason than leveling the speakers. I think alot of people forget about the importance of speakers being dead level relative to the floor and to each other. No floor is level and I would also use something under the granite rubber dome feet perhaps. I use Michell large tender feet under my very thick granite slabs. I found that the really crap floor I had to deal with when I lived in my parents house needed thick granite to stop bass passing into the room below.


Regards D S D L

DaveK
22-04-2009, 22:04
Hi Guys,
On the subject of granite plinths and seperate shelves you may be interested to hear that, some time ago, from some supermarket or other (sorry, all other details faded away), I purchased for the Controller a larger (than a chopping board) piece of white marble about 15 or 20 mm thick which was on sale as a pastry board, the theory (for the benefit of the un-domesticated) being that pastry benefits from being kept cold whist being made. I admit that I do not recall seeing any lately but, there again, I haven't been looking for any. It may provide another avenue to explore for anyone interested in the subject.
Even though Controller rejected it after a short period of use as being too heavy, I have retained it on the (sound Yorkshire) basis that it might come in useful one day. No wonder the loft, office, garden shed and garage are stuffed to the gills.
Hope this may help,
Dave.

aquapiranha
22-04-2009, 22:06
If you want cheap granite or slate, go to a fireplace supplier, or a kitchen worktop shop - they always have bits cut out where fires and sinks go, and would probably polish the edges if you asked nicely....

symon
22-04-2009, 22:09
I have a marble rolling board too, which I'm thinking of putting under my Lenco when it is ready to use. I would be interested in hearing opinions about its usefulness as an isolation type thing, too.

The Grand Wazoo
22-04-2009, 22:09
:)Hi Chris and Steve,
Thanks for your inputs - all useful stuff !
Chris, I haven't the remotest idea what the lower 2 layers are but they are certainly NOT oak. The middle layer is less than solid shall we say (gaps being visible between them at random intervals). CORRECTION: - I have just popped up into the loft to have a look at the pieces left over and the bottom 2 layers appear to be, in fact, a single layer of 5 Ply. Of these 5 the top, middle and bottom layers seem to be about 1.5 mm and layers 2 and 4 seem to be about 1 mm, give or take. If it helps you to formulate a more specific recommendation I would be happy to post you a postage stamp sized sample
The thought of choosing your floor to provide the best acoustics ONLY does take the obsession to new heights (or depths):)
Cheers,:cool:
Dave.

Yes, It's probably Birch-faced, with Poplar in the core. The centre layer may, or may not be Birch too.

Mike
22-04-2009, 22:12
If you want cheap granite or slate, go to a fireplace supplier, or a kitchen worktop shop - they always have bits cut out where fires and sinks go, and would probably polish the edges if you asked nicely....

Like it. :) Gives me an idea that, cheers!

Spectral Morn
22-04-2009, 22:14
This Controller has me interested, being a Supreme Dalek and all are we talking about .............................
http://www.whoniverse.org/pictures/cyber_revenge.jpg The Cyber Controller. :lolsign:



Regards D S D L

DaveK
22-04-2009, 22:16
Neil,
No !!
Dave.
:lolsign:

aquapiranha
22-04-2009, 22:17
That guy loks like he is playing an intergalactic concertina...nice hat, reminds me of lego men...

I'll get me coat...

Ali Tait
22-04-2009, 22:22
Looks like he's trying to turn his ipod up..

The Grand Wazoo
22-04-2009, 22:32
Re: The headgear - Haven't these Cybermen heard of blue LED's?

aquapiranha
22-04-2009, 22:36
Re: The headgear - Haven't these Cybermen heard of blue LED's?

NOOOOO!!! not BLUE LED's that would be truly terrifying! there is nothing worse than the blue LED... the scourge of the electronics industry. Why there isnt an EU directive banning them yet is beyond me.


:steam:

The Grand Wazoo
22-04-2009, 22:44
NOOOOO!!! not BLUE LED's that would be truly terrifying! there is nothing worse than the blue LED... the scourge of the electronics industry. Why there isnt an EU directive banning them yet is beyond me.


:steam:

DITTO

Spectral Morn
22-04-2009, 23:07
I like them they match my eyes :lol:


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
22-04-2009, 23:11
I like them they match my eyes :lol:


Regards D S D L

Oh Katherine, you are such a card(ette)