LP sound from CDs

[high.spirits]

Hi

My current system is Thorens TD160 Super, SME Series 3 arm with Ortofon VMS30 Mk11, Arcam FMJ A19 and PMC DB1i in a small room, which sound really good - detail, staging etc.

When I play CDs on my old Pioneer PDR 509, they are very bright and thin sounding - awful.
A friend lent me an Music Fidelity V- DAC11 which has improved things a lot. However it still is not as good as my LPs.

I have had one suggestion - try using a Jolida valve DAC.

Any other suggestions on how to get a similar LP sound from CDs?

Thanks
Martin

[jandl100]

I know 3 folks whose ears I trust that rate the valved Jolida DAC very highly.

Personally, I'd recommend a Beresford Bushmaster DAC as well.

[Reffc]

Depends what you want from CD, specifically. What is "LP sound"? There are so many variables involved it's impossible to answer that one precisely but using a good off-board DAC is a good start as its likely that the Pioneer can be bettered by quite a margin.

The other thing is to pick your CD recordings carefully. There are some labels such as OPUS3 who pride themselves on the analogue stages of recording (digitally mastered) and they give true Red Book (or better) wide dynamic range so never sound that compressed. Its a bit of a lottery with digital recordings tbh.

I always seem to revert to vinyl after perhaps a few months going through CDs. It satisfies in a way CD never seems able to providing you have a decent front end and good recordings.

No need to spend the earth. If it's "warmth" you want, the easy on the ear sound you're after is just a matter of trying a few more DACs/CDPs until you settle on something that works for you.

[Macca]

No need to spend the earth. If it's "warmth" you want, the easy on the ear sound you're after is just a matter of trying a few more DACs/CDPs until you settle on something that works for you.

Would be my advice too. They are all voiced differently, remarkably so sometimes. Price is no arbiter, it's a just a question of mixing and matching.

[DSJR]

Sorry to poor cold dishwater over this and I'm really not trying in the slighted to be patronising here BUT - you're using a plump-bassed VMS30 (I have one and have used it recently) in a rather soft toned arm (the SME III was totally opposite sonically to the 'Improved' series 2 that preceeded it - why do you think so many are being stripped out for spares?) on a deck that hints at greatness but never really gets there! I do know the deck you have and set up many many of them in my time and although the 'Super' was a subtle improvement on the base TD160 II, the mat change probably accounted for most of what you hear as a 'difference' and not the structural changes IME.

Apologies for appearing to diss your turntable system, but there's absolutely NO WAY you're going to get a neutral digital source to sound the same as it without loads of artificial software processing! It's the deck that's balancing a speaker-room situation I believe and the object should be to mellow the sound from the speakers out a bit, not slug the digits to match the turntable...

My advice is to use CD's for now and play around with speaker positioning, as well as absolute phase to get the DIGITS right, and then set about updating your vinyl system into something a little less coloured and turgid sounding. I know the truth can hurt, but I very much doubt I'm wrong in this particular instance, turntable wise at least.

Apologies again...

[Audioman]

Martin.

The problem is getting a Thorens deck to have the precision and dynamics of CD as much as a better CD player. I bought the Gyro because at the time was the only deck I heard that combined the attributes of CD with the better resolution and musicality of vinyl. In comparison to modern designs the Thorens/SME III tends to be relatively warm and muddy though pleasing to listen to (I used to own a 160s).

I don't think adding valves is necessarily the answer to improved CD reproduction. There are plenty quality used CD players on the market that should improve matters such as TEAC VRDS or Sony. CD will always sound relatively flat but frankly the mastering of the CD will make the biggest difference. It is surprising how good a well mastered 16/44 source can sound. Unfortunately mastering quality on most CDs is poor and doesn't produce sound that approaches the format's potential.

My recommendation would be to improve both front ends if you want SQ to converge. Sounds like you have vinyl and CD at both extremes of desirability. Muddy v thin/bright.

Paul.

[jandl100]

:lol:

If I had the guess the poster, it would have been DSJR.
Bless. :)

[high.spirits]

Thanks for feedback.
I must admit the Thorens / SME / VMS30 is long in the tooth but I like the sound it produces and it is very easy on the ear all day long.

Time for a rethink. However budget constraints will mean no great spend on both front ends.

[jandl100]

Martin, if you like what your vinyl front end does don't let self-appointed "experts" put you off it! ;)

I've been told before now that kit I really like is cr*p - I just ignore 'em! :lol:

[Haselsh1]

I get similar questions like this related to photography, how do I get my digital work to look more like film...? The answer really is very simple, use the real thing not just an impersonation of it. Of course you are going to have to realise that to use the real thing takes an awful lot of dedication and intensity as it is far easier to go for convenience every time. That is the thing with digital, it is highly convenient but not necessarily better.

[Haselsh1]

I've been told before now that kit I really like is cr*p - I just ignore 'em! :lol:

I couldn't agree more

[synsei]

If I'd listened to those who have told me the stuff I've bought is crap I'd probably have given up by now and I'd be languishing in my dotage listening to a 1980's Amstrad tower system... :lol:

I will say that a jump from a Thorens TD160mkII to a Technics SL1210 fitted with a Series III was a huge step up in sound quality for me. I recently fitted a Denon DL160 to this combination with gobsmacking results. Incidentally a DL160/SME Series III combo is not supposed to work either... :lol:

[Haselsh1]

If I'd listened to those who have told me the stuff I've bought is crap I'd probably have given up by now and I'd be languishing in my dotage listening to a 1980's Amstrad tower system... :lol:

I will say that a jump from a Thorens TD160mkII to a Technics SL1210 fitted with a Series III was a huge step up in sound quality for me. I recently fitted a Denon DL160 to this combination with gobsmacking results. Incidentally a DL160/SME Series III combo is not supposed to work either... :lol:

Tizz my goal to get back to a 1210 at some point in the future.

[Marco]

'LP sound' from CDs?

Trust me, from someone who knows, and has achieved exactly that, the most effective way is to buy a quality CD player from the 'heyday' of CD (late 80s to mid 90s), which uses a top-notch transport mechanism, including Philips TDA-1541 chips in the DAC section, and then, in order to upgrade aging internal components (such as caps and resistors), have the CDP modified (as lightly or extensively, as you wish), by someone like Audiocom International, see here: http://www.audiocominternational.com/content/8-about-us

Mark (from AI) modified my own Sony CDP and DAC (as listed in my signature). He is an expert in CDP and DAC modifications, and the results of his work on the best vintage CDPs are truly mind-blowing. Forget valves in CDPs or DACs, as IME, unless a significant amount of money is spent, they don't work properly in source components and simply act as rather poor sticking plaster.

However, the advice I've given only applies if by 'LP sound' you mean LP sound, when done properly, i.e. devoid of artificial euphony. If you're after a 'warm and cosy', rose-tinted, sound from CD or vinyl, then I can't help you, as that's not something I seek from my own T/T - or indeed my CDP and DAC.

I've always said that the best vinyl replay systems should sound like good digital - and that's free from euphonic artifice (and clicks and pops, if you use a good record cleaning machine).

Hope this helps, and good luck! :)

Marco.

[Andrew B]

Thumbs up from me for the TDA1541 although it is notoriously hard to implement successfully. The best incarnations for me are Naim CDI and CDS. They both "drive" a system in a similar way to vinyl. That's the best way I can describe it but you will know when you hear them.

If you can't stretch to them, look at CD3 or original Rega Planet.

[twickers]

'LP sound' from CDs?

Trust me, from someone who knows, and has achieved exactly that, the most effective way is to buy a quality CD player from the 'heyday' of CD (late 80s to mid 90s), which uses a top-notch transport mechanism, including Philips TDA-1541 chips in the DAC section, and then, in order to upgrade aging internal components (such as caps and resistors), have the CDP modified (as lightly or extensively, as you wish), by someone like Audiocom International, see here: http://www.audiocominternational.com/content/8-about-us

Mark (from AI) modified my own Sony CDP and DAC (as listed in my signature). He is an expert in CDP and DAC modifications, and the results of his work on the best vintage CDPs are truly mind-blowing. Forget valves in CDPs or DACs, as IME, unless a significant amount of money is spent, they don't work properly in source components and simply act as rather poor sticking plaster.

However, the advice I've given only applies if by 'LP sound' you mean LP sound, when done properly, i.e. devoid of artificial euphony. If you're after a 'warm and cosy', rose-tinted, sound from CD or vinyl, then I can't help you, as that's not something I seek from my own T/T - or indeed my CDP and DAC.

I've always said that the best vinyl replay systems should sound like good digital - and that's free from euphonic artifice (and clicks and pops, if you use a good record cleaning machine).

Hope this helps, and good luck! :)

Marco.

Good stuff Marco :thumbsup:

[Marco]

Cheers, chaps. Quite simply, I know that it works! :exactly:

There's no doubt that properly implemented 1541s sound as 'analogue' (in the right way), as you're going to get with digital. Multi-bit, done properly, IMO, has always outperformed bitstream, in the musicality stakes.

Unfortunately, it was technology that became 'forgotten' by the materialistic ravages of commercialism, back in the day, (much like Betamax did with VHS), despite the former being superior. However, Andrew is right, it takes experience and know-how to fully exploit TDA-1541s, but once done, and you hear just what they're capable of sonically and musically, there's no going back to 'frigid' sounding bitstream.... :trust:

Marco.

[Yomanze]

'LP sound' from CDs?

Trust me, from someone who knows, and has achieved exactly that, the most effective way is to buy a quality CD player from the 'heyday' of CD (late 80s to mid 90s), which uses a top-notch transport mechanism, including Philips TDA-1541 chips in the DAC section, and then, in order to upgrade aging internal components (such as caps and resistors), have the CDP modified (as lightly or extensively, as you wish), by someone like Audiocom International, see here: http://www.audiocominternational.com/content/8-about-us

Mark (from AI) modified my own Sony CDP and DAC (as listed in my signature). He is an expert in CDP and DAC modifications, and the results of his work on the best vintage CDPs are truly mind-blowing. Forget valves in CDPs or DACs, as IME, unless a significant amount of money is spent, they don't work properly in source components and simply act as rather poor sticking plaster.

However, the advice I've given only applies if by 'LP sound' you mean LP sound, when done properly, i.e. devoid of artificial euphony. If you're after a 'warm and cosy', rose-tinted, sound from CD or vinyl, then I can't help you, as that's not something I seek from my own T/T - or indeed my CDP and DAC.

I've always said that the best vinyl replay systems should sound like good digital - and that's free from euphonic artifice (and clicks and pops, if you use a good record cleaning machine).

Hope this helps, and good luck! :)

Marco.

Totally agree Marco. Not a fan of valves to 'gloss over' digital, nor a fan of delta/sigma DACs with their 'sheen' especially noticeable on piano and vocals, preferring old multibit chipsets as my DAC uses (TDA1541A).

[clap]

I tried using that pioneer pdr into a dacmagic and it sounded terrible. My ps3 as a transport was loads better. Get rid of the pioneer.

[DSJR]

Martin, if you like what your vinyl front end does don't let self-appointed "experts" put you off it! ;)

I've been told before now that kit I really like is cr*p - I just ignore 'em! :lol:

'Self Appointed "experts"' indeed!!! - Pot & kettle mister :lol:

Easy on the ears all day long means summat's afoot IMO AND IME - SO THERE :)

First thing with the Thorens is maybe to replace the cartridge with something with better bass. Not sure how well the 2M Bronze would go in the SME III, but a 540 or better, an OM40, would be a significant update for the excellent diamond the VMS30 came with, with similar clarity but FAR less turgid bass - in my experience.. The TD160 Super should have a new Thorens belt if it hasn't been changed for a good few hundred hours. Just checking to see if the deck changes speed unaided to 45 is indicative of a belt WAY past its best by the way, not an indication that it's due for a change... I still feel the lid should be totally removed for playing too...

Getting the bass sorted and the sonics from records livened up a little will be an excellent first stage into integrating tonally neutral sources into the system and hopefully bring the best each formsat can offer closer together. ideally, you should be able to play both formats without either being sent to sleep by one, or having your head bitten off by the other.

Good luck :)

[Lee Henley]

I know 3 folks whose ears I trust that rate the valved Jolida DAC very highly.

Personally, I'd recommend a Beresford Bushmaster DAC as well.

In my system the Jolida is the most LP sounding Dac Ive ever heard. Its seen off quite a few other dacs that I have had the pleasure of listening too at home, some of which Ive actually owned, these being

Owned and sold by me at a considerable loss since I brought them all new

Cambridge Dacmagic
M2Tech Young
Audiolab CDQ
Eastern Electric Tube Dac

Borrowed and tried in the system when evaluating the options

Naim nDac
Northstar Essensio
Metrum Octave

Its quite amazing that apart from the Dacmagic the Jolida is the cheapest on the list Ive tried and its the one thats staying, Im no longer looking for a Dac and I no longer spin cd's, all my files are played on a Mac Mini straight into the Dac via a Hiface for coax connection.

Hope this helps

Lee

[Marco]

Easy on the ears all day long means summat's afoot IMO AND IME - SO THERE :)


Not necessarily. I can (and often do) listen to music on my system, quite literally, ALL DAY LONG, as the sound it produces, amongst other things, is 'easy on the ear'. However, that term is very subjective! ;)

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

hmmm... well, yes, if it's NOT easy on the ear all day for me it gets the boot! But I think I know what you mean Dave! ;)

[jandl100]

Live music is not necessarily easy on the ear - it can be raucous and uncomfortable, be it a jazz saxophone at full throttle or a violin played to its limit. I prefer to aim for the unvarnished truth.

Hee hee - :eyebrows: - this is a very contentious subject for an audio forum! ;)

:popcorn:

[DSJR]

I'm sorry, I do still differentiate between 'easy on ears' and 'bland' but as usual, didn't express it properly.

[Yomanze]

Live music is not necessarily easy on the ear - it can be raucous and uncomfortable, be it a jazz saxophone at full throttle or a violin played to its limit. I prefer to aim for the unvarnished truth.

Hee hee - :eyebrows: - this is a very contentious subject for an audio forum! ;)

:popcorn:

Yep agree with this. Sometimes your system should make your ears hurt a bit if that's what the music set out to do. Take distorted guitar, or Joni Mitchell tearing mics apart, as other examples that can be 'raucous', but that's the point! I have had systems that didn't really portray these bits instead making everything softer, smoother, but they were fatiguing in the wrong way as they were boring!

[high.spirits]

Thanks for all the feedback and comments. It gives me many options to think about.

My aim is to get reproduction as near a live performance as possible e.g.
I went to a Swan Lake performance many years ago (the Moscow Ballet Company if I remember correctly).
I have a Deutsche Grammophon LP of Swan Lake and it is very close to the live performance. Very different to a Decca CD I have which is flat and boring.

To start narrowing down the options:

On the CDP front – does the Marantz CD63 II Ki Signature or Quad 67 CD fit the bill as described by Marco.

On the turntable front – rather than fiddle with my current turntable, what would be a good upgrade using currently available equipment at a sensible cost and not going esoteric?

cheers
Martin

[Audioman]

My criteria for a 'vintage' CD player is one you can get replacement lasers for. Also would concentrate on a good transport. Can't recall hearing a CD63 KI but remember an impressive Quad dem with the 67. How it really stands up to current designs I am not sure and don't know if it is still serviceable. Marantz players I have heard that impressed have generally been the more upmarket designs. I wouldn't get hung up on multibit either as it is the implementation that counts. There aren't many 1541 based designs less than 20 years old.

I also don't think it is a desirable or realistic aim to get concert hall sound at home. It realy is impossible to replicate that kind of sound. Also bear in mind most recordings are studio based rather than live concerts. Invariably the later are tweaked in the studio to iron out flaws and render them playable on domestic equipment that is usually not of hi-fi quality.

[julesd68]

Here's a cheap DAC that promises more of an 'analogue' sound -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Non-Oversampling-DAC-TDA1543-DIR9001-96kHz-SPDIF-Coax-Optical-9V-NiMH-charger-/200931498263?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Other&hash=item2ec8735917

I know next to nothing about DACs so maybe someone who does could comment on the tech specs and whether it is a potentially interesting product ...

[DSJR]

I once had the chance to listen to a variety of 1950's Decca CD A-D masterings with the engineer that did them. I commented on the differences as some were sweet and more than one was a bit rough and almost harsh. "That's EXACTLY what the masters sounded like!" he replied with feeling, very proud at getting the transfers done to exactly mirror what he heard from the original tapes, which incidentally were in far better condition than many of the 60's and 70's analogue tapes he'd worked with...

CD SHOULD get you nearer to the heart of the original mix, assuming the recording, editing and mixing was done well to start with. I'm sorry to be so negative on the Thorens, but updating the cartridge to one the SME III and other tonearms will work with, together with the phono stage suggestion, which I haven't heard, should lift your vinyl experiences to another level.

The CD63 KI version could be strident in many systems and it was perfect for slugging with the old MF X-10D valve buffer, or better, the DAC that MF made in the X series at the time. For not too much money, I do feel you could leapfrog this once popular machine with something like the far better cased Arcam Diva 72 and 82 machines or my long-term favourite, the original Rega Planet CD player, still serviceable and tweakable should you wish to look to some bodging :) (look on the Acoustica site for inspiration for the Planet and CD63 models)..

Hope this helps with future direction.

[Marco]

CD SHOULD get you nearer to the heart of the original mix

I know where you're coming from, Dave, and agree to an extent. However, so should also a well-sorted, neutral sounding turntable, which I agree the Thorens isn't, nor is ever likely to be, no matter what cartridge is on it.

Trust me, when I play the new Doors 45 rpm vinyl box set (produced from the original master tapes, via a very high quality, all-analogue recording process), on the Techy, the sound produced is utterly breathtaking and is closer to the sound of the original tapes than any CD or digital recording I've heard of the same music! ;)

Marco.

[jandl100]

.... the sound produced is utterly breathtaking and is closer to the sound of the original tapes than any CD or digital recording I've heard of the same music! ;)

Marco.

How do you know, Marco?

Have you heard the original master tapes? ;)

[Marco]

Indeed... However, the same question could be directed at Dave, in reference to the CDs! ;)

In terms of the Doors albums I was referring to, the comment is based simply on the level of dedication to recreate, as closely as possible, the sound of the original master tapes, undertaken by Acoustic Sounds and Doug Sax, including the original studio engineer, Bruce Botnick, who HAVE heard the original master tapes, as those were used as the benchmark for the sonic quality of their 45 rpm vinyl box set.

Given that the sound quality of those records significantly outperforms that of any CD or digital recoding I've heard of the same music, I know which I'd chose as my own personal reference for achieving nearest authenticity to the sound of the original tapes! :exactly:

Ultimately, however, there's no question that, in the absence of being able to directly compare the sound of the original master tapes, to that of the vinyl box set or any digital recording of the same music, any such judgement is entirely subjective.

What I'm really getting at is that there is no reason why, with the right turntable and system, all set up optimally, replaying the best audiophile pressings on vinyl, the sound produced can't be as 'accurate' as that of any digital recording created of the same music.

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Gosh. How do you pick hifi by word descriptions? Clearly folk have lots of different perceptions. And there is a big pile of stuff I've never heard. My goals are neutral, detailed, natural, imaging, uncoloured and "live". Live recordings like Eric Claptons unplugged are handy for checking the latter. And I think I can recognise the warm and muddy's and harsh's being referred to. The thorens is not bad for the isolation, and can spin a disc. If you want a gentle migration towards a bit more detail, neutrality and openness on the analogue, try an achromat as a modest priced upgrade. Then maybe the Goldring 1012 cartridge. If you have a nice cuddly local dealer you could take your deck in and try both before buying (I just can't imagine buying something blind, says the man who bought his Goldring on AK's advice unauditioned)

And for digital... acknowledging I haven't heard the revered chips Marco refers to, DaCapo was certainly a revelation in how CD's can sound. As a low risk toe in the water, try to pick up a used Cambridge CD6 on ebay - about £50. CD5 is also worth a go for about £50. And then if you have a few pennies more, at least audition Westlakes latest offering - the audiolab MDac. Those will take the harshness out of CD, (as opposed to "adding warmth") - improve the detail and give you a reference for comparison. Mind, they'll probably break down, but at £50 you aren't risking too much. (there are half a dozen CD5's on ebay as of right now, one with a £39.99 buy it now price)

[Oldpinkman]

I must stop this and do some work. "LP sound from CD"? No. I've been listening to DaCapo for the first time in 20 years, gob-smacked by how good it is, and greatly impressing the missus. We both said - "its as good as an LP". It's certainly very very good, and not at all like any other digital I am used to. It's like someone grabbed the sound and spread it out, nailed each bit in place, and created a breathy naturalness to acoustic instruments. As my new hifi guru (the aforementioned Mrs S) commented "just wait till you get your proper box on the floor back" (she meant the Quad 405-2. Temporary "box on the floor" is an Arcam 10P). Then we tried a direct comparison to vinyl (Katie Melua, Secret Smphony - recently released on vinyl with a free CD in the album cover - so directly comparable recording)
DaCapo is very good. I could, and will listen to CD's on it. But whenever I can get vinyl, for the minute, I will. If anyone has a CD player / Dac they think will change my mind, and lives near kent, I am happy to open a bottle of wine when you bring it round.:)

[Marco]

Hi Martin,


To start narrowing down the options:

On the CDP front – does the Marantz CD63 II Ki Signature or Quad 67 CD fit the bill as described by Marco.


They may indeed (although, I'm not sure if those use TDA1541s), but personally, I'd look at the likes of the Arcam Alpha or Naim CD players, upgraded and modified by Avondale Audio, whose site is unfortunately currently under maintenance: http://avondaleaudio.com/

However, you can still call Les and speak with him about your plans. I assure you that he'll be very receptive towards them and most likely be able to supply you with a suitable CDP or advise on what is the best route to obtaining the sound you're looking for.

Failing that, I'd search on Google for 'CD players using TDA1541 chips', where you will find websites listing a whole array of them. The best examples tend to be those from Sony and Marantz, although there are others, too.

Do some research and shortlist the ones you think could be good, and then find out if replacement laser mechanisms are still available for them, by either contacting someone like Mark Bartlett, from Audiocom, who has vast experience of modding vintage CDPs, or use ebay, where replacement mechs are often sold for such players, including the actual players themselves.

Quite simply, if you can buy a spare NOS ('New Old Stock') transport mech for your chosen vintage CDP, then including the one already in the player itself (unless that one is on its last legs), the player should last you for many years, so don't worry too much about reliability. As I said, if you've managed to source a spare NOS transport mechanism, then that should last you a very long time, as the older mechanisms were built to last. I'm still on my original one, and my Sony CDP is over 26 years old - and it gets used for hours on end every day!!

Then take the plunge and obtain your chosen player (from ebay or wherever), send it to someone like Mark, for modifying and updating in key areas (such as re-clocking and PSU arrangements), whilst maximising its inherent design assets (the TDA1541 chips, a solidly built CD-only transport mechanism and usually pretty hefty linear power supplies, instead of the cheapo SMPS units usually found today in CDPs), and quite simply, you'll end up with something that will outperform most modern CDPs, costing many times more!! :trust:

The effort will be more than worth it - I promise you. Btw, as an aside, you may find this article interesting reading, which Ashley posted earlier, elsewhere on the forum:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?26101-Reviving-old-equipment&p=452357#post452357

What's written on that thread is absolutely the case, and one of the reasons why the best vintage players sound more like a good turntable.


On the turntable front – rather than fiddle with my current turntable, what would be a good upgrade using currently available equipment at a sensible cost and not going esoteric?


Define "sensible cost" (i.e. tell me your max budget) and I'll see if I can help! :)

Marco.

[high.spirits]

Hi Marco

Thanks for the great information, I will certainly follow up on that path.

Interesting and in support of your info, many years ago I had an original Arcam Alpha CD player, after about 8 years ownership I took it into a dealer and compared it to the current range of CDPs. Even the dealer agreed it was superior to most of the kit he had unless you spent £k on a new CPD. I sold it when the other half removed HiFi from the lounge :scratch:

For a turntable upgrade £800 - 900 ish.

Thanks again
Martin

[Oldpinkman]

The Rega RP6 is the obvious candidate. Personally I would wonder about keeping your TT and changing the arm. At the risk of sounding like the marketing department for Funk, instead of just a very old friend of Arthur's, you are not going to love yourself one day in the future if you don't at least make an effort to hear the LSD before parting with any cash. You might think about whether you want the arm and the mat on your TT. Taking nothing away from vector, or any other aspect of Arthurs TT design, it is the F5 arm that blows you away. Not sure whether any UK dealer actually has a working final production version in stock yet, but worth a bit of patience. It's quite "normal" looking for AK as well, so your better half will probably allow it in the living room.

[The Grand Wazoo]

At the risk of sounding like the marketing department for Funk, instead of just a very old friend of Arthur's.....

Actually, you do come across a bit like that sometimes, Richard!

[Oldpinkman]

Sorry Chris.
Of course I can't win. Arthur would doubtless say I spend all my time talking about 20 year old Dac and preamp designs that are no longer made, and not sold by his firm, and never mention his other products. To which my answer would be "I'm not your b****y marketing department".
Truth is I'm just a little boy, very happy to be listening to music at home again properly after so long, and very excited with his new toy (F5), his mended old toy (PIP) and his rediscovered old toy (DaCapo 22bit). And I'll be even happier and more excited when my power amp comes back from the amplifier hospital. ;)
And as one who is not a virgin, if I were about to spend hard cash on a moderately priced turntable, I wouldn't want to die wondering...

[The Grand Wazoo]

It's OK Richard, I understand - we can't give you a trade account because you're not trade & you can't help but talk about your experiences in the industry and you obviously have a deep connection to those particular products. It's a tricky one but also good that you declared your interest in the company so soon after joining as you did.

[DSJR]

Indeed... However, the same question could be directed at Dave, in reference to the CDs! ;)

Marco.

I have done so, albeit a long while ago, and this is why I sometomes come on a little bit strong where iffy record players are concerned ;) Anyway, in very recent times I've been swayed by the tactile and emotional aspects of playing LP's at home, which is also a very important part of the listening experience..

[Marco]

Richard, you wanted a different title under your name? I could put 'PT Fanboy' under it! :eyebrows:

;)

Martin, I'll come back to you later!

Marco.

[DSJR]

The Rega RP6 is the obvious candidate. Personally I would wonder about keeping your TT and changing the arm. At the risk of sounding like the marketing department for Funk, instead of just a very old friend of Arthur's, you are not going to love yourself one day in the future if you don't at least make an effort to hear the LSD before parting with any cash. You might think about whether you want the arm and the mat on your TT. Taking nothing away from vector, or any other aspect of Arthurs TT design, it is the F5 arm that blows you away. Not sure whether any UK dealer actually has a working final production version in stock yet, but worth a bit of patience. It's quite "normal" looking for AK as well, so your better half will probably allow it in the living room.

I'm going to be jumped on for saying this, but our good friend hifi dave has both decks available for demo as far as I'm aware. The Rega is so familiar it's easy to be blase about it. The Funk is a lovely looking thing and the arm really does look to be a genuine alternative to the RB series on decks that dislike the Rega.

[Marco]

Joking aside, I have a major respect for PT products, vintage and modern (not to mention the chap who designs them), so I have no problem with recommendations being made, appropriately. For me, Arthur's designs almost always do things, musically, that are beyond the products of most other manufacturers :)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Thanks marco. Pt fanboy is fine by me. If oldpinkman doesn't make enough of an upfront declaration of interest then that should do it. Arthur is a mate. Pink triangle, the company he founded, left (closed) and moved onto funk firm from, was, 20years ago an exciting, innovative placeto be, in a hifi world that was mainly cloning or very esoteric. Arthur was one designer. Dacapo was the first (only? ) dac to use a discreet dac circuit instead of a chip. Its designer was john westlake. The dc-armed, transconductance pip - which I first heard head to head with an sp8 was designed by Owen jones. Major innovations, not engineered up tinkering. Like the turntable which didn't just go beefier and butcher on a thorens ariston theme, but introduced suspended not floating, the inverted bearing, centre of mass at centre of suspension, non-ringing sub-chassis, dc motor, oh - and an acrylic platter. In one go. There - I've got it off my chest for all time. An exciting place to be. We wanted to change the world. And we did. I like to think this brave new world of variety and freedom from dogma I find on aos today was helped along a bit by that firm.
And pt fanboy - not funk firm fanboy. Although I too have respect for ak's new designs. Did I ever mention that the f5 is really quite good? Jaw-dropping. But I fear we've wandered off the subject of our friends interest in getting a vinyl sound from cds and started flogging him a new turntable. I line up with an earlier post. "If you are happy with your vinyl sound, stick with it". I don't know the amps or the vms30 (I had a 20 once). Its ok. Bit soft, there's more detail to be had, but fairly uncoloured. Again, without knowing every cd player either, I doubt its the extra stability and detail he doesn't like. It will be that flat hardness and fatigue. A dacapo 1307 would be the real recommendatiin from a pt fan-boy, but they are like rocking-horse shit - very hard to find. As a more practical low cost low risk dabble to have a comparison, try a cd6 off ebay for £60. And one of these philips chip jobs like the arcam if u can find one. I found a reference list of the dacs using them on the web, but in 4 hours of trawling through ebay couldn't find any of the sony, marantz or phillips ones. I would have been interested to try. I have heard the quad 66 and the naim before, but not "pimped".

[Oldpinkman]

Sorry Marco. SWMBO has instigated a force-majeure objection. Apparantly it has to be "ESL63 fan boy". We are planning to move to France, and build a house there. As we sit down at the CAD package to design it, I have started with the pair of ESL63's I haven't yet bought, and designed out from there. As I said to Sue - "If we can get the speakers, and the ground level right (the plot is on a slope), the rest of the design will just drop into place"

I think she understands :)

[John]

These days I hear very little difference between a good Turntable and top of the range digital set up I will admit for those records that are really recorded well I have a slight preference for vinyl, but I can comfortably swap between the two. I sometimes wonder if I spent as much on digital as I have on TT it might be the other way around

[Audioman]

Richard, would like to hear your insight as to how PT came to an end. It was revived later (about 13 yrs ago) continuing the Tarantella plus a then expensive amp and Cd player. Ultimately failed as these were considered too expensive at the time - just look at prices for high end amps a decade later :doh:.
Also why did Arthur abandon the PT type designs for those rather domestically unacceptable Funk models (excluding the latest creation) ?

As far as Philips 1541 dacs are concerned - look at late 80's Sony models such as 337ESD, 557ESD (super build quality). They were quite bright and forward sounding compared to later bit stream models. Also I have a Marantz CD65 II Special Edition which uses 1541 dacs but haven't tried it in my present set up. It has rather plasticy lightweight casing and one of those draws that works on cogs rather than belt. Actually feels more substantial than the TEAC VRDS draw but slow clunky operation (though not so much compared to DVD players). From experience anyway may be worth trying these models if you can find them. Still think many later bit stream based models sound better incl the TEAC VRDS. IMO none of these types will give 'LP' sound but can get you close depending on source quality. Can't recall thinking any high end players I have heard left me thinking they sounded like LP either. Perhaps Naim come closest but aren't exactly neutral sounding.

Anyway you can always tell LP from the surface background and intermittent vinyl fill noise judging by some recent pressings I have bought - so in that respect CD will never be equal. :(

[DSJR]

The Tarantella suffered inconsistant build and had various silly niggly problems, bit like some PT products of old. Excellent service in getting them sorted though, in fairness...

Richard, the VMS range and I think the M20 and earlier M15 range, were characterised by a thick-toned bass, which seemed to get worse as the models went up. The VMS5e is full bodied and pleasant, the 10E was the best toned of them all I thought, the 20E was somewhat clogged in the bass (with a nasty sssting without the cap210 capacitor added) and the VMS30 was just plain awful, the wonderful diamond fitted not really able to shine as it did in the M20FL Super, which itself can have bass issues. The OM, followed by the superior? 500 (VM) range, improved dramatically on these earlier models and of course we now have the 2M range, the bodies of which being more inert than ever :)

[Gordon Steadman]

Sorry Marco. SWMBO has instigated a force-majeure objection. Apparantly it has to be "ESL63 fan boy". We are planning to move to France, and build a house there. As we sit down at the CAD package to design it, I have started with the pair of ESL63's I haven't yet bought, and designed out from there. As I said to Sue - "If we can get the speakers, and the ground level right (the plot is on a slope), the rest of the design will just drop into place"

I think she understands :)

No no no, you can't be a member of our gang down here with those speakers. Wrong number:doh:

I was seriously unimpressed with the 63s in my system and still reckon the old 57s are the better bet. Its not that the 63s didn't sound good, they did, but..... they failed the special Steadman toe tapping test. It may depend on what they are partnered with but with the Stereo20 they came a quite distant second:(

[Marco]

Hi Martin,


Hi Marco

Thanks for the great information, I will certainly follow up on that path.

Interesting and in support of your info, many years ago I had an original Arcam Alpha CD player, after about 8 years ownership I took it into a dealer and compared it to the current range of CDPs. Even the dealer agreed it was superior to most of the kit he had unless you spent £k on a new CPD. I sold it when the other half removed HiFi from the lounge :scratch:

For a turntable upgrade £800 - 900 ish.

Thanks again
Martin

Please see this post from Les, at Avondale Audio: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?25563-North-East-Bake-Off-2-21-06-13-Hartlepool&p=453411#post453411

I would seriously recommend that you audition one of the Arcam players he mentions, as it will very likely be exactly what you're looking for! I'll get back to you later on the T/T :)

Marco.

[Oldpinkman]

Gordon
I fear we are hijacking poor martins thread. Fortunately, i'm confident he is a forgiving understanding chap.
We can discuss the point over a glass or two if & when I ever get out there. It will be blanquette de limoux chez nous.
We had both at the factory. We also had stacked 57's which would be my first choice - but I know my limits. There is no way I would get stacked 57's past the interior design and soft furnishings machine gun nest manned by mrs s. They need grabbing by the balls to get your toe tapping. Cue pip/405-2. I'll put some bottles in the fridge.:cool:

[Oldpinkman]

Oh. And mrs s auditioned both the 57's and 63's at a freinds recently, and gave the 63s the thumbs up. Thanks owen - I owe you (again)

[Oldpinkman]

Thanks paul.
I'll keep looking. But dacapo sounds like analogue. Until you put a record on. Passes the "good enough" test referred to in another post. Im still interested to hear machines that others on here consider good. Im still astonished thst 20 years on bog standard cd players aren't wiping the floor with this old banger I picked up off eBay

[Macca]

I've yet to hear anything better my Sony 791E. It's a 'Dragnet' player ('just the facts') and has proper bass too. Sounds more like a reel to reel than a cd player.

[Oldpinkman]

Dave - you obviously knew them better than me. Its so difficult talking about listening. I wish we could all get together with a few bottles and our toys, so we all knew what we were hearing.
I had a vms20 in a linn basic arm on the old pt for 2 years. I think we had a bit over 400puff on it. Nad 3020 and keesonic kubbs, which were bright bass-light bookshelf speakers. It sounded ok. Best system in aston uni digs at the time. Maybe its a balance thing. Im not flagging it as a reference system, but it was ok.
A bit like asking directions from the country man on a stile in ireland "well, if I was after getting to dublin, I wouldn't start from here". In hindsight I would probably have bust the bank and had a shure 97e. But I was a penniless student.
The vms20 was an essential overbudget replacement for the free linn cartridge, which, even though we sorted through a box of them to find one without a bent cantilever, still sounded like an am radio in bad atmospheric conditions. And the fault the vms20 showed up led to me sitting on the kichen floor of arthurs parents flat with ak and the gang. 31 years ago - welcome to pt!

[DSJR]

I know you love the DaCapo, and it's a nice DAC, but I once compared it to the operationally clumsy but otherwise expertly designed AVI S2000MC (whatever the second generation was) and my AVI wasn't found wanting at all from its audio or digital outputs, especially in the bass, which sounded more powerful as I recall from nearly 20 years ago now. The different filter boards for the DaCapo changed the sound a bit, but one wasn't really 'better' than the other IMO.

I've never really gone on 'trebly deeeeeeetailed' CD players, finding many of them un-musical and fatiguing to listen to for any length of time. The big old ATC actives I loved (100A's) didn't really take to overtly 'Audiophile coloured' products either, but give them ANY source with well balanced subjective qualities, vinyl or CD, it didn't matter, and the sound could be magical. AVI (and Ashley especially) may have a load of stick thrown at them, but the designer (Martin) knows a thing or three about power supplies for digital circuits and it's amazing how many issues seemed to disappear once the supplies were sorted (his CD players had up to eleven regulated supplies inside them - a shame the casework and operation on older models didn't live up to the excellent internals).

Anyway, I'm drifting again - apologies all :mental:

[high.spirits]

Hi Martin,



Please see this post from Les, at Avondale Audio: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?25563-North-East-Bake-Off-2-21-06-13-Hartlepool&p=453411#post453411

I would seriously recommend that you audition one of the Arcam players he mentions, as it will very likely be exactly what you're looking for! I'll get back to you later on the T/T :)

Marco.

Hi Marco

Have spoken to Les and I believe have a way forward re CDPs. Will follow up when Les back from his travels..

Thanks
Martin

[high.spirits]

It's great to hear and receive so much information from guys who have a long history in the game.

With so many options out there, it gives me some light at the end of the tunnel to aim at.

Re turntables: a friend of mine is a Linn LP12 (much much modified) follower, and thinks I should go that way, but on limited budget we shall see. I like the look of the Funk LSD and the Gyro, but that may be stretching the budget a bit with her in doors....

[Marco]

Hi Marco

Have spoken to Les and I believe have a way forward re CDPs.


Sounds intriguing - do share! :)

Marco.

[high.spirits]

Sounds intriguing - do share! :)

Marco.

Nothing really intriguing, just looked at the options and the Arcam route. Will follow up following his return from Bake Off.

We actually spent about the same amount of time talking motor bikes from yesteryear... happy days when the roads and drivers were better...

Any more thoughts re turntable, arm, cartridge options? Are Linn's still a valid option if obtained at the right price?
Showing my age again...