Electroscratching an itch... [Archive]

Figlet108

28-05-2013, 11:25

Ok, so as some will have read (on someone else's thread - sorry James), I recently bought some Quad 2805s (from top bloke Neil) for my converted attic system, once I realised I was spending more time in the 'man cave' than in the living room :)

I love them. For me they are an exit level speaker that I have always been intrigued by and then started seriously lusting after when me and Theo heard some Maggies at NAS a few years ago (yes I know Maggies are not electrostatics).

Anyway, the initial point for the post is to get help from seasoned Quadites as to how best to set them or the room up, as right now the bass is too boomy from my listening position (which I can't really change)

Here are some photos of the room/setup:

From listening position to speakers:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FMMkqccYsmk/UaSOfnUneQI/AAAAAAAAB-Q/RS0Zz4RNTuM/w1347-h898-no/IMG_7325_resize.JPG

From speakers to listening position:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2wLdI5HqSME/UaSOgJD5slI/AAAAAAAAB-U/rN-dG9j_J8U/w1347-h898-no/IMG_7326_resize.JPG

Behind the speakers:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qUZkEPpPzzI/UaSOgMoKyaI/AAAAAAAAB-c/XWKMMShK_No/w1347-h898-no/IMG_7327_resize.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XSnYDkoQGNo/UaSOgyzp5zI/AAAAAAAAB-k/wFu94QQMOLc/w1347-h898-no/IMG_7328_resize.JPG

They are being driven by a pair of NVA A80s and my TFS is plugged directly into the amps. There's also an AG500 in there too for good measure. The speaker cables are cheap temporary high current copper mains wires and the interconnects are also semi-temporary from Blue Jeans Cable.

My first guess is that I need some room treatment.
What do you guys think?

thanks

Alan

28-05-2013, 11:36

Hi Jason

Nice man-cave system!

I recently spent some time with some ESL57s, and was totally smitten. What I say is based on the (possibly faulty) presumption that these are similar.

The main thing I learned was that the 'statics needed some treatment behind - not really heavy bass absorption, more something to kill echo. My mate had good success with an old fashioned type of flooring panel (which I could remember what it was now) - I think he pinned two layers to the walls, around each corner.

The other thing was to lift them off the floor - he made some temporary wooden cradles to experiment with. They were about 12" off the floor, angled back a bit (he was going to try more angle after I left).

They were amazing things, I don't think they need too much in the way of room treatment - perhaps because they are best used near-field? They seemed perfectly happy in quite a lively room. You could always try a deep pile rug, I suppose...

southall-1998

28-05-2013, 12:21

My father had some Quad ESL-63s back in 2007. Lovely mids!!! But a speaker certainly not for heavy music though!!

RobHolt

28-05-2013, 14:36

Now that's an interesting room :)

IME the 63/988/805 are fine as floorstanders in large rooms but really benefit from being raised 8-10" in smaller rooms. The dispersion pattern and bass alignment is adjusted for larger rooms. Lifting them will make the sound leaner and better defined.

In small rooms its also useful to experiment with back tilt as these designs are very directive >8khz. If the 805 has fixed back tilt it might be worth jacking the back of the stand so that they stand more upright if you raise them.

While they are tolerant of positioning close to side walls this isn't the case if you have them toed-in. The dipole nature of the design ensures near perfect cancellation to the sides but this effect reduces markedly as you toe them inwards.

So in this situation I'd move them slightly closer together and lift them a few inches, but with less toe-in.

You might also want to look at some 75-100mm acoustic foam (the pyramid stuff) on the walls behind the ESLs.

Another consideration is the way that dipoles excite room modes.
When mounted perfectly upright and firing directly down the room the cancellation effects mean at least 6dB less excitation of the vertical and lateral modes and this actually makes them more room friendly than most box designs, contrary to popular opinion.
The moment you tilt or toe them this advantage starts to recede so it's worth experimenting.

Finally, these designs tend to have some general LF increase due to room gain in small rooms. I address this with 3dB of shelf cut <100hz.

However, all things considered I prefer the sound of this design in smaller rooms when you listen in nearfield at around 2m. The tight directivity gives you more direct than reflected sound and this makes for a very intimate sound which can be captivating like nothing else.

So be prepared to experiment and don't worry too much about following the accepted rules for ESLs. In small rooms it's very much trial and error.
Peter Walker famously demonstrated the first 63 to the press by inviting them into his lab, where the 63s were plonked onto a pair of kitchen chairs and each person in turn was invited to sit in the sweet spot. Quite unlike the conditions you usually see for ESLs and many of those attending reported that they'd never heard the design sound so good after that.

Think 'humongous headphones' and these things sound stunning. That goes for all Quad ESLs.

Any questions just shout :)

Rob

Firebottle

28-05-2013, 16:47

Think 'humongous headphones' and these things sound stunning. That goes for all Quad ESLs. Rob

I like that :lol:
:cool:
Alan

John

28-05-2013, 17:27

Nice strat

Ninanina

28-05-2013, 21:16

All I can say is that when I had my 57's they definitely did not work well when they were as close to the back wall as you have your's

I had to bring them about 3' into the room for them to work well, which is why I had to sell them when I moved as I didn't have the 3' spare. I did try them closer to the back wall but I just got a very 'boomy' sort of sound, not nice at all. Also they worked best when a couple of feet from the side walls too

Sovereign

28-05-2013, 23:00

Nice room, behind the curtains is it a stud wall or does that space go right back to the eves?

Figlet108

29-05-2013, 00:04

Thanks for all the feedback folks.
I'll experiment with all suggestions and see what happens.

First of all I'm trying them off the ground, further away from the back and side walls and less toed in:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aD_57p2-xBk/UaUWBU4gEZI/AAAAAAAAB_E/Gm7Czn5mjSA/w1347-h898-no/IMG_7329_resize.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bcn6eidKRmk/UaUWBieDeMI/AAAAAAAAB_I/nejRXq_nhAw/w599-h898-no/IMG_7330_resize.JPG

With the listening position 2m away the sound is certainly leaner and more focussed, but it's not night and day different. I'm sure it can get better. Tomorrow I'll try tilting them forward and playing with the position and toe-in.
I'll also get some acoustic foam and try that behind them as suggested.

Question about the foam: is the 100mm pyramid foam going to effect the bass or would I need a product specifically designed to be a bass trap?

Also, I assume whatever I do there is always extended bass when sitting close to the back wall?

Figlet108

29-05-2013, 00:07

...behind the curtains is it a stud wall or does that space go right back to the eves?

I should have said that behind the curtains is full of 'stuff' all the way to the eves. On the left side is packaging and on the right is boxes full of usual attic crap.

Figlet108

29-05-2013, 00:09

All I can say is that when I had my 57's they definitely did not work well when they were as close to the back wall as you have your's...

They are now about 3 feet from the wall, and at the 2m listening position they are not at all boomy - only if I sit right at the back wall.

Rare Bird

29-05-2013, 00:11

I went shopping somewhere earlier in the year where i noticed a shop with gigantic windows all around the front & down the side of an entrance into a shopping mall (Can't remember maybe Manchester!), anyhoots their was hundreds of those old Singer sewing machine sat on nice custom made shelves from top to bottom of these windows, quiet amazing really to see em..Anyhoots back on topic commrades :eyebrows:

Rare Bird

29-05-2013, 00:12

Well that took me about a second to find, it was Manchester

Figlet108

29-05-2013, 00:19

My father had some Quad ESL-63s back in 2007. Lovely mids!!! But a speaker certainly not for heavy music though!!

Hey Shane, I've heard that said before many times, but I'm not finding that myself so far, although it depends on the definition of 'heavy'.
I tried some Led Zep and it sounded wonderful. I also had no problem with some other old classics like Smashing Pumpkins, Green Day, Iron Maiden etc.

It doesn't really get any heavier than that for me.

That stuff doesn't sound great though when the volume is too high. But I guess with a small room and no treatment there's going to be a lot bouncing around at high volumes...

Figlet108

29-05-2013, 00:22

Well that took me about a second to find, it was Manchester

Yep, it's a trade mark shop front for All Saints clothing stores - they are all like that. My wife is into sewing and we found those dumped at our local tip...

Figlet108

29-05-2013, 00:24

Nice strat

Thanks John - that was mid-life-crisis-present-to-self when I turned 40 this year... (along with the I-just-want-to-play-Voodoo-Child wahwah pedal) :)

RobHolt

29-05-2013, 02:00

Question about the foam: is the 100mm pyramid foam going to effect the bass or would I need a product specifically designed to be a bass trap?

Also, I assume whatever I do there is always extended bass when sitting close to the back wall?

The foam is only effective in the mids and top. Down to around a few hundred Hz for 75-100mm. For bass absorption/trapping you're looking at 300mm+ so it gets quite intrusive. For bass, membrane traps or resonators are best.

Sitting close to the back wall can boost bass but it's also often more lumpy. You'll also hear more reflected sound.

I have to sit quite close to the back wall in my room so have some panel diffusors fitted to the wall.

Quads are fine with heavy music, especially in small rooms since they go plenty loud enough.
I like reggae and dub which sounds fine on my 63s, which have their -6dB point at 35Hz in my room.

Rob

Neversmileatacrocodile

30-05-2013, 21:24

Hi Jason

A few thoughts on optimising the behaviour of the Quads in your eyrie (it looks too light to be a cave).

Lifting the Quads makes a lot of sense, but seems most successful if there is fresh air beneath the panel : as in the various proprietary stands for the ESL57. The catch with lifting the 2805 is twofold - they are much heavier than previous models, and the panel leans back at about 5 degrees. Any stand will have to be very strong and tilt the speaker slightly forward, otherwise its axis will be above your head, thereby exacerbating the problem.

I would try a couple of feather pillows against the wall behind the speakers. This won't abate the bass, but may 'clean up' the top end and make the thing sound better balanced. If that makes any meaningful contribution then also try heavy rubberized carpet underlay behind the speaker - this used to be particularly favoured by ESL57 users.

I'm wondering if the problem isn't compounded by your listening position - if you are nearer the back wall, and the speakers nearer their wall than usual, then this may be a double whammy - in which case you might also think about something behind your head (a rug?) rather than behind the speakers.

The other thing is to explore whether too much bass translates as too little mid/top? With plenty of space to breathe, and a 'flat' amp the Quads create a spacious but backwardly balanced image. In a more constrained space a slightly more peppy source/amp might be preferred. A quick and dirty way to check is to use the graphic equalizer in iTunes to create a -Bass +treble slope of the sort Quad used to build in to their preamps.

Kind regards
Neil

jandl100

31-05-2013, 05:41

Wow, great man-cave/eyrie. :thumbsup: -- can you seal yourself in? :eyebrows:

Those Quads are very different beasties from 57s.
I had original Quad 63 for 7 years or so, so I pretty much know them inside out, sonically.
Yep, raising them is good - but more free space underneath is better, as has been said. Try with the cinder blocks on edge, rather than flat - but you do want to be roughly on-axis. But, well, probably best not to obsess!

Usually best with 3 feet or so behind them - but I heard a pair built into a wall - that'll never work I thought when I saw them. But actually they sounded very good.
Ye ne'er can tell! - it's worth experimenting with an open mind. Whatever works for you, works. :)

In a smallish space I bet they can get quite raunchy, too. Very nice.

wee tee cee

31-05-2013, 16:03

RobHolt

01-06-2013, 01:40

The time-aligned dispersion array that features in the Quads is known to interfere with the space-time continuum and can in extreme cases set up a black hole into which listeners are sucked, never to emerge.

Jason has gone very quiet.
Just saying :eek:

Alan

01-06-2013, 08:12

Rob,

So, you enjoyed Star Trek then?

;)

Figlet108

01-06-2013, 10:13

...space-time...black hole...Jason has gone very quiet.

Yep, sorry folks week days are a bit intense at the moment.

Before we go on let me just say I've been blown away by the quality and quantity of responses - thanks everyone.:clap:

Now, on with the show - here's were I'm at:

I have rearranged the blocks to create air under the quads and tilted them forward so they are on axis.
I also have them 4ft from the wall, less toe-in and approaching 30cm from sides.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c6iVCQjAB9w/Uaj_b2ubZjI/AAAAAAAAB_4/1APr8n4EX-c/w1347-h898-no/IMG_7331_resize.JPG

I also misunderstood Neil's suggestion of putting feather pillows behind the speakers:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NaL6feRA0Bk/Uaj_b7kiNQI/AAAAAAAAB_0/CI2bVAPW74M/w599-h898-no/IMG_7332_resize.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4JY9jb-2U10/Uaj_b9R-vNI/AAAAAAAAB_w/2MXLbnFR5qM/w599-h898-no/IMG_7333_resize.JPG

I missed that he meant *on the wall*. But I ended up with very firm Hungarian Goose Down pillows (Ralph Lauren I believe) on one side and a Tog 9 feather duvet (from Ikea I think) on the other side.

Before I get escorted away by men in white coats for random insanity against bedding, I have to say the current set up sounds superb :D

The mids are so lifelike voices and instruments are in the room - some real goose bump moments. The bass has also tightened up considerably and there are baselines in some Led Zep tracks that I had never been able to follow before - I can hear every individual note instead of a blurred bass-related sound. Drums and cymbals again very real and well defined (my brother plays drums so I know what they should sound like).

My normal listening position at my desks when I'm working is 2ft-3ft and the speakers are currently 6ft-7ft away form me. From these positions I'm getting a well balanced and satisfying sound. If I sit right against the wall bass is extended and slightly less defined, but still fun for the right track.

Yep, it's boring when someone's gushing about how great stuff sounds so I'll stop. You get the idea. I would like to balance this out with elements that are not great as I'm always suspicious when it's all one-sided. However to do that I need to compare to something else that's better. I want to compare to my Audiovector based system downstairs but that will have to wait for redecoration to be done as it's out of action. From memory there are aspects of the Audiovector experience that I miss in the Quads.

ok, back in a sec - wife just discovered the bedding's missing... eek!

DSJR

01-06-2013, 10:36

Just keep general clutter randomly placed behind them, to help break up lower frequency reflections the 'bedding' lets through :)

Ali Tait

01-06-2013, 11:11

Aye, statics are nice, what they do well they do better than anything else. Must repair the panel on my pair..

RobHolt

01-06-2013, 12:21

Rob,

So, you enjoyed Star Trek then?

;)

Pardon?
Speak up man! :D

Richard Kimber

01-06-2013, 19:26

Is it really recommended to stuff a duvet down the back of one's 2805? Or is that a solution to a completely local problem?

I'll certainly try raising mine off the ground a bit.

- Richard.

RobHolt

01-06-2013, 20:11

Is it really recommended to stuff a duvet down the back of one's 2805? Or is that a solution to a completely local problem?

It just helps absorb some of the rear radiation which can help if you can't get the Quads well away from walls. Out in free space I wouldn't do it.
Peter Walker recommended it in a private letter to a HFN reviewer back in the 80s who wanted to run 63s in a bedroom :)

Rob

Figlet108

01-06-2013, 20:18

Hi Richard,

no not at all - stuffing the duvet was just an experiment to see if reducing the unwanted reflections from the back wall would help my situation, and instead of treating the walls it was easier to stuff them behind the speakers.

I now need to figure out the best way to achieve the same results with a more permanent solution, safe in the knowledge that any money spent will be worth it.

Soundlab sell a treatment accessory for placing behind their electrostatic speakers called Sallie (http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/#!__products/accessories):
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/4/43687/sallie.jpg

Might be interesting to try and make my own version of these (since Soundlab want $1000 EACH for them), or just buy some regular pyramid acoustic treatment as Rob suggested:
http://di1-4.shoppingshadow.com/images/pi/f5/b6/12/96200204-260x260-0-0_Auralex+Auralex+4+StudioFoam+Pyramids+Acoustic+A bs.jpg

User211

01-06-2013, 20:34

In all shots I see your acoustic inbetween the speakers.

I run Apogees and whenever I have a serious session I make damn sure none of my acoustics are in the room.

Why? Because they resonate like mad. Feel the surface of the acoustic when the Quads are loud. Also, play loud, then stop the music suddenly. My acoustics ring for some considerable period afterwards, plainly audible. Mind you mine are wall hung by the neck, almost certainly worse than a floor stand.

Just a small tip that might help...

Figlet108

01-06-2013, 20:49

...I like reggae and dub which sounds fine on my 63s, which have their -6dB point at 35Hz in my room.

Rob, you've made a few references to specific measurements in these posts and I'm guessing you have some experience measuring and understand room acoustics?
I'd quite like to get into it and measure and understand it myself as it seems like a useful tool to add into the audiophile toolbox.
First question then is what do you use to measure room acoustics? Do you have software that helps you with this?

Thanks!

Figlet108

01-06-2013, 23:23

A few thoughts on optimising the behaviour of the Quads in your eyrie...
Hmm... I've learnt a new word there :)

...most successful if there is fresh air beneath the panel : as in the various proprietary stands for the ESL57. The catch with lifting the 2805 is twofold - they are much heavier than previous models, and the panel leans back at about 5 degrees. Any stand will have to be very strong and tilt the speaker slightly forward, otherwise its axis will be above your head, thereby exacerbating the problem.
Are there official stands for the 2805? Or can the ones for the ESL63 be used like these:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Quad-ESL63-stands-NO-RESERVE-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/WJ4AAOxy--NRplSU/$T2eC16JHJGkFFm2q2QCpBRplST3I!g~~60_58.JPG

...you might also think about something behind your head (a rug?) rather than behind the speakers.
Unfortunately I can't as I have an electric radiator behind me that needs the space above it clear to function properly. However I'm happy with the sound at my listening position now.

...In a more constrained space a slightly more peppy source/amp might be preferred. A quick and dirty way to check is to use the graphic equalizer in iTunes to create a -Bass +treble slope of the sort Quad used to build in to their preamps.
Tried it and didn't like it. Preferred the natural untampered sound.

Thanks Neil, really appreciate you coming onto the forum to help me out.

RobHolt

02-06-2013, 02:02

wiicrackpot

02-06-2013, 06:09

Looking at your room and height of ceiling, can't help but think hanging is the best solution,
damn sight better looking and less intrusive than breeze blocks or any stands with no interaction with the floor.

My thoughts,one rope harnessed to ceiling attached to the top of the integrated stand to determine height,
attach a straight pipe like bike hadlebars to the bottom of the same integrated stabiliser stand,
knot on each end and attach one hook to the back wall (like pulley style), depending where you tie the knot,
you can incorporate toe in/out with diiffering degrees of forward lean, all you'll see is one bit of rope from the ceiling, aye or no??. :)

Ali Tait

02-06-2013, 06:45

Good idea.

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 11:47

Wow, great man-cave/eyrie. :thumbsup: -- can you seal yourself in? :eyebrows:
Yes absolutely, if I play the 'right' kind of music :rock:

..Try with the cinder blocks on edge, rather than flat - but you do want to be roughly on-axis. But, well, probably best not to obsess!
Good suggestion and yes being on-axis has made a significant difference. As for not obsessing - we're in the wrong hobby for that, so er... no chance - it's obsessing all the way I'm afraid :D

..but I heard a pair built into a wall - that'll never work I thought when I saw them. But actually they sounded very good.
Hmmm... as much as I'd like to try that the nice old lady that lives in the next door terrace isn't going to appreciate music dripping down through her attic.:hmm:

In a smallish space I bet they can get quite raunchy, too. Very nice.
Not sure what raunchy means in Glos. :) but it's certainly fast, dynamic, and loud in my room.

DSJR

02-06-2013, 11:58

Those old Stand & Deliver stands were pretty ropey I remember. The 63's used to wobble on them in addition to any structural flexure they could suffer from. Spikes didn't really make them much more stable and I think Jason has a better situation with his improvised stands - IMO

In my experience, the 63's needed the Arcici style stands to really make them sing. Far clearer sound to my ears, possibly because the speakers were lifted higher, as Jason's done with his bigger models.

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 12:00

jason,
i run 63s and know they can be a bit pernickety placement wise...having heard your tfs in conjunction with ali tates set up(havent heard the amps) cant help but think that in the origional picture just opening the curtains and moving them out from the corners maybey 30cm with a smidge less toe in would help.
more contenstious would be cable choice....i found noticeable benefits from different speaker cables(tq black my default) the 63s are honest speakers that expose any flavour downstream.....the nva cable gets great write ups....some experimentation with wire before room alteration may be prudent.....likewise interconnect.

Hi Tony,
yep moving them out a bit and less toe-in did help.
Here's the kind of thing that's behind the curtains:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-danRJCqGcTM/Uaj_d0g5P4I/AAAAAAAACAA/g6qsVRARoaU/w969-h646-no/IMG_7334_resize.JPG

I REALLY hope opening the curtains DOESN'T make a difference. I couldn't cope with the increased view of clutter :D

As for cables. Yes absolutely.
I have some LS5 and also the raw material for making LS7. The LS7 is a real PITA to make which is why I keep putting it off, but when I do I'll have a cable changing session.
The Blue Jean Cable interconnects I really like actually, and may not change them. They are very low capacitance and with my TFS/NVA amps/Audiovector set up downstairs there was very little in it between them and SSPs. They are also very well shielded so much less RFI/EMI than with SSPs.

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 12:08

Just keep general clutter randomly placed behind them, to help break up lower frequency reflections the 'bedding' lets through :)

Hi David,
I hear you, but I'm one of those people that hates clutter if I can avoid it. Don't let the current photos fool you. Once I have got the sound I want by any means I will then have to replicate it with aesthetically acceptable (to me) means.

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 12:13

Aye, statics are nice, what they do well they do better than anything else. Must repair the panel on my pair..
Hey Ali, talking of repairing statics, and for sure this is for another thread, I came across a blog where a chap had built his own design of electrostatics:
http://jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/building-stat-panels.html

Really captured my imagination and I would definitely like to build my own some day.

jandl100

02-06-2013, 12:22

Not sure what raunchy means in Glos. :) but it's certainly fast, dynamic, and loud in my room.

Ah right - I meant :hairmetal: not :whippin: :spank: or :bonk:

:lol:

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 12:23

...I run Apogees and whenever I have a serious session I make damn sure none of my acoustics are in the room...
Just a small tip that might help...

Completely agree Justin.
But I can't be bothered taking mine out of the room so my 'strat'egy (excuse the pun :D) is to keep the guitars directly in line with the sides of the panels where in theory there should be little sound activity, and also to make up some kind of string-ring-absorber™ out of rubber to place on the stings when not being played.

When I'm ready to market the String-Ring-Absorber™ you can have a few for free...

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 12:27

Ah right - I meant :hairmetal: not :whippin: :spank: or :bonk:

:lol:

Sorry Jerry, we are talking at crossed-purposes again. When I said it was fast dynamic and loud in my room I meant :bonk:

jandl100

02-06-2013, 12:28

When I'm ready to market the String-Ring-Absorber™ you can have a few for free...

.... here's some. :)

http://www.worthpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Rubber-bands.jpg

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 12:32

You could possibly use those 63 'Stand & Deliver' stands if the base of the 2805 sits on them ok, but those stands have a slight back tilt so account for that.

The stands are threaded though so you can fit spikes to change the tilt angle.
I just stuck wheels on mine. Spikes are so 80s ;)

Yes I'm not convinced by those stands and as David says they do look pretty wobbly and insubstantial.
I agree about the wheels over spikes for the Quads though. I love the wheels that Neil had made for them before he sold them to me.

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 12:35

Oh bugger Jerry, you stole my String-Ring-Absorber™ design! I had a patent pending on that and now I'm going to sue you (or challenge you to a duel - your choice) :fence:

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 12:49

Looking at your room and height of ceiling, can't help but think hanging is the best solution,
damn sight better looking and less intrusive than breeze blocks or any stands with no interaction with the floor.

Hi Andy, even though those ugly blocks are only temporary I really like your out of blocks thinking :D

My thoughts,one rope harnessed to ceiling attached to the top of the integrated stand to determine height,
attach a straight pipe like bike hadlebars to the bottom of the same integrated stabiliser stand,
knot on each end and attach one hook to the back wall (like pulley style), depending where you tie the knot,
you can incorporate toe in/out with diiffering degrees of forward lean, all you'll see is one bit of rope from the ceiling, aye or no??. :)
The end result I like the sound of - the process to getting there scares the crap out of me :)
The only supporting structure in the ceiling is the central wooden beam (hidden behind plasterboard). The sloping parts of the ceiling above the speakers are just plasterboard, so I'd have to have supporting metal bars suspended from the central beam and extended sideways to support each speaker.
In my (I sure flawed imagination) it seems more intrusive to me and a direct path to divorce once I have broken the roof :D

Figlet108

02-06-2013, 13:09

Right, before I go do something else with my Sunday I will wake you good folks up with a fruity image that Soundlab used in early adverts of their electrostatics (I found it when I was googling for images of Soundlab Sallie)

http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/5/52171/SpeakerlabElectrostatics.jpg

RobHolt

02-06-2013, 13:24

Those old Stand & Deliver stands were pretty ropey I remember. The 63's used to wobble on them in addition to any structural flexure they could suffer from.

They were supposed to wobble/flex.
Peter Walker was strongly against making statics 'rigid' for sound technical reasons. Such is the incredibly low moving mass of the diaphragm that there is very little stored energy and much less of it goes into the support structures. The moving mass of a 63/988/2805 element is about the same as the diamond tip on a phono cartridge, so utterly tiny and the way it drives the air and supporting structures is different to boxed loudspeakers with moving coil drivers.
Place your hand on the side or top of a 63 while playing loud bass and you can barely feel anything at all.

Bracing the support frames rigid slightly increases the Q of the main panel resonance.
You get stronger bass peaking.

I like the ceiling suspension idea if it could be made to work safely.

Rob

Ali Tait

02-06-2013, 13:29

Hey Ali, talking of repairing statics, and for sure this is for another thread, I came across a blog where a chap had built his own design of electrostatics:
http://jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/building-stat-panels.html

Really captured my imagination and I would definitely like to build my own some day.

My pair are a kit from ER Audio, though not built by me. Sound great IMHO.

Canetoad

02-06-2013, 14:19

wiicrackpot

02-06-2013, 14:49

The end result I like the sound of - the process to getting there scares the crap out of me :)
The only supporting structure in the ceiling is the central wooden beam (hidden behind plasterboard). The sloping parts of the ceiling above the speakers are just plasterboard, so I'd have to have supporting metal bars suspended from the central beam and extended sideways to support each speaker.
In my (I sure flawed imagination) it seems more intrusive to me and a direct path to divorce once I have broken the roof :D
Right enough Jason, shame the load bearing beam is in the middle,you don't wanna be hanging your beauties from plasterboard, :eek:
PB's are a nightmare to hang things on but i am pretty sure Screwfix will have some anchoring fixings that might do the job but still hit and miss,
stands are the easiest solution. :)