My first Technics SL1200 MK2

[twotone]

I've just got one, it was delivered on Saturday, these things weigh a ton.

Mine is practically brand new and looks it, it came in an original box (from an SL 1210) including poystyrene packaging, a felt mat and the Technics rubber mat, dust cover, Techics stock tonearm and an old A&R Cambridge P77 cart.

I stuck the box on the scales before opening it and it weighed in at 14.2kgs!

First impressions are pretty amazing!

I previously had a RP3 wth an RB300 arm & an AR XE turntable with an AT 1120 arm and, on both TTs I tried a few different carts but always went back to an old Denon DL-110 cart that I bought SH a couple of years ago.

The Technics is in a different league sound wise and build wise to both of those other turntables.

First impressions are very good, the sound is really good and there's great bass, however with some albums the sounds is a bit different to what I'm used to but I'm putting that down to the cartridge.

The deck sounds fantastic with Jazz and female vocals, seventies soul and rock but I noticed that it's a bit 'bright' with some music such as some old Coltrane and Miles Davis albums however Kind Of Blue is stunning as is My Name is Julie by Julie London:cool:

My third press copy of Hunky Dory was a bit hard to listen to but on the previous two TTs it sounded amazing so again I'm blaming the cart for this as this particular copy of that album is a very good pressing I believe.

Listening to albums over the weekend I would say that this is the best that I've ever heard vinyl in my system, they almost sounded CD like but not in a bad way just very clear and transparent.

I've a new SAE 1000LT cart to try out which I'll do this week.

I've ordered two new Technics headshells and I'm now on the look out for a decent SH Denon DL-110 as I sold my old one:doh:

I've also got a Timestep PSU (mk 1, I think) which I'm going to install after I've had taken a good wee while to listen to the deck in stock form. BTW does anyone have set of instructions for installing the Timestep PSU?

For me it's early days but I'm already thinking that the deck is a keeper.

What I really like about the Technics is the ability to be able to pay singles without the faff of changing a belt to a different position and I also really like the way that the platter just stops dead when you press the button and the arm is really nice to use too.

I also like having the option of different cartridges on spare headshells and just simply changing them over on the arm without the big drama of the previous two TTs.

Most of all however, apart from how the deck sounds, I like that the deck is modern and works like modern things do, the other decks were nice but one of them was nearly 35 year old.

Now don't get me wrong I like old things that look great and that work, I do have a 1960 Lieca M3 and a 1966 Summicron lens both of which are stunning examples of fantastic engineering which has long gone now but sometimes modern stuff just does things better than the older stuff and this Technics deck is in that category, it's no wonder that people who use turntables for a living buy these things because they are ,quite literally, built like tanks!



Tony

[MikeMusic]

I was seduced by Martin T's whole system with the Technics at the front end.
Add in the many upgrades available for the Technics and I was sold far enough to get one.
The current level of upgrades I have now have it outperforming my LP12 / Aro /Lyra

I think you made a good move

[Marco]

:worthless:

Get yer camera out, Tony! ;)

Marco.

[Audio Al]

:worthless:

Get yer camera out, Tony! ;)

Marco.

I think it looks like this :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2434.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2434.jpg.html)
.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2432.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2432.jpg.html)
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2430.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2430.jpg.html)
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2429.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2429.jpg.html)
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2427-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2427-1.jpg.html)
.
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2426-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2426-1.jpg.html)
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Now how do I know this :hmm::hmm::D:D

[Tarzan]

Tony, enjoy the deck your thoughts mirrored mine when l first heard the Techie,very fuss free and musical, your one step at a time is sensible,however once you do one tweak..... they all are good:)

[twotone]

I think it looks like this :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2434.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2434.jpg.html)
.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2432.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2432.jpg.html)
.
.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2430.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2430.jpg.html)
.
.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2429.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2429.jpg.html)
.
.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2427-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2427-1.jpg.html)
.
.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/bigboobs/IMG_2426-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bigboobs/media/IMG_2426-1.jpg.html)
.
.

Now how do I know this :hmm::hmm::D:D

Thanks Al:D

[twotone]

Tony, enjoy the deck your thoughts mirrored mine when l first heard the Techie,very fuss free and musical, your one step at a time is sensible,however once you do one tweak..... they all are good:)

Found this great thread from Grommit (Richard) on the wam from back in 2008, Andy:cool:

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?21225-Gromit-s-Tecchy-odyssey-blog-etc&highlight=timestep+psu

[twotone]

I'm sitting here listening to a load of our (my wife and mine's) old 45s from the early seventies that I've not heard in at least 35 years.

Most of them are wrecked but the memories are flooding back:smoking:

Fantastic, it's like looking at photographs from you childhood.

[twotone]

Right guys I received my new Technics headshell yesterday along with an overhang gauge.

I've just fitted the SAE cart to the new headshell but it's a pretty light cart at only 4.7g and I only had a light plate to add to the weight of the cart and, as I wanted to keep the A&R cart on the other headshell for comparison I didn't want to use the 2g weight that's on that headshell so I used a nut and bolt:eyebrows: just to get the cart set up and playing.

The SAE is a brand new cart and I have to say that first impressions are very good, loads more detail in the treble/midrange but bass is just about the same however these carts are meant to improve after about ten hours so I'll reserve judgement until then but I'm please with it so far right out of the box as it were:cool:

Some photos below, would appreciate any comments re set up etc.

I think I've got the arm and cart set up ok, the cart is tracking at the recommended 1.8g and anti-skate is set to the same.

I've raised the arm a touch since the photos were taken and I think it looks more level now or maybe a wee bit high at the headshell end of the arm.

Anyway...

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2722_zps146c8590.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2722_zps146c8590.jpg.html)


http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2723_zpsf69aff8c.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2723_zpsf69aff8c.jpg.html)


http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2725_zpscb2f0bff.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2725_zpscb2f0bff.jpg.html)


http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2726_zps28b8e007.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2726_zps28b8e007.jpg.html)

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2727_zpsded18bac.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2727_zpsded18bac.jpg.html)

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag37/Tony_Cosgrove/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2728_zps88605a25.jpg (http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/Tony_Cosgrove/media/SAE%201000LT%20CARTIDGE/IMG_2728_zps88605a25.jpg.html)

[Audio Al]

Tony You need to do something about the dust , the photo shows a big clod being cough and towed around on the stylus ;)

[twotone]

Tony You need to do something about the dust , the photo shows a big clod being cough and towed around on the stylus ;)


Aye I know Al, thinking about buying a cheap record cleaner from Scott Nagal, only £70 perfect for a complete cheapskate like me:eyebrows:

[twotone]

Hi guys, still loving this deck with the new SAE cart and was thinking that an external PSU wouldn't make a great deal of difference to the TT in stock form.

Decided, after, a load of research, to go ahead with the installing the Timestep PSU that I had bought before actually buying the deck itself, as I'm fairly confident at soldering being a plumber but electronic soldering is a whole different ballgame from soldering a 22mm solder-ring elbow on a gas supply anyway I had bought a soldering iron from Lydl a couple of years and never used it so I did a wee bit of practising my soldering skills on an old PCB from a boiler that I had kicking about and got the hang of it quickly enough, thankfully.

So following Hugo's instructions in the sticky thread re connecting an external DC PSU I set about my pristine TT with some trepidation:cool:

Won't go into the boring details but Hugo's instructions are very good so the mod was done quickly enough and it worked first time but I was still skeptical about whether in fact there would be a significant improvement to the sound over a stock TT.

So, I put the deck back in the rack and stuck on a record, The Backstabbers by the O Jay's which I had just bought yesterday as part of a special Tom Moulton collection of re-mixes of Philladelphia Interrnational Classic tracks from the seventies and was completely underwhelmed:scratch:

I checked all of the connections again and re-levelled the deck, cleaned the stylus and put on the single of Althea and Donna's Up Town Top Rankin and my goodness what a sound!

I thought I just got lucky with the single which is seventies dub with loads of bass so I put on Mario Biondi's 'This Is What your Are' from his Handful of Soul album and the sound was even better, much better in fact.

I really can't believe how good these deck sound in stock form but an external PSU takes them somewhere else and despite me having bought a persona non grata PSU which, after being declared as the best thing since sliced bread, if you read the comments on the PSU from about 2009 on the forum to being complete shite now after the guy who sold them was banned about a year or so later then I'm well pleased and can only imagine how good some of the so-called 'better' PSU makes these decks sound.

But all of that aside I am one happy guy tonight:eek:

Tony

[kininigin]

Hi Tony,

Glad you are enjoying your Technics and the Timestep psu :) I'm dying to get my deck back up and running after 6 months of no vinyl.Think i may go down the diy psu route,although i have no idea what i'm doing in that respect :lol:

[Canetoad]

Darren, get a Paul Hynes regulator circuit and build the rest of the PSU round that. That's what I did and I'm very happy with the outcome. :)

I can add an on board reg later on and bump the output to 27 volts as well, so sorted for future updates.

[twotone]

Hi Tony,

Glad you are enjoying your Technics and the Timestep psu :) I'm dying to get my deck back up and running after 6 months of no vinyl.Think i may go down the diy psu route,although i have no idea what i'm doing in that respect :lol:

Thanks Darren, yip still enjoying the deck and the Timestep, I did come across some of your replies to the rather, ahem, unsavoury comments from it's former owner.

Couldn't have been easy selling the thing after that stuff Darren but I did also read an excellent thread, on the Wam, from Grommit, regarding his experiences with the Timestep PSU which is one of the reason I actually installed it rather than stick it on e-bay and take a hit.

Anyway I'm more than happy and I can't see me moving the Technics or the Timestep on in the near future unless something better turns up at reasonable price.

Best of luck with the DIY PSU though, sounds interesting from what I've read.

There are some pretty decent tips re PSU DIY design and build on that American site that sells loads of Technics gear the name of which escapes me at the minute.

Regards

Tony

[JazzBones]

Thanks Darren, yip still enjoying the deck and the Timestep, I did come across some of your replies to the rather, ahem, unsavoury comments from it's former owner.

Couldn't have been easy selling the thing after that stuff Darren but I did also read an excellent thread, on the Wam, from Grommit, regarding his experiences with the Timestep PSU which is one of the reason I actually installed it rather than stick it on e-bay and take a hit.

Anyway I'm more than happy and I can't see me moving the Technics or the Timestep on in the near future unless something better turns up at reasonable price.

Best of luck with the DIY PSU though, sounds interesting from what I've read.

There are some pretty decent tips re PSU DIY design and build on that American site that sells loads of Technics gear the name of which escapes me at the minute.

Regards

Tony

Don't worry about the TimeStep supply Tony, I used the basic model first, then the HE psu from January 2011 until now and both did the business for me. I'm now waiting delivery of the Timestep T-01psu having got a good trade in deal on my HE (could still live happily with this one). The man behind these power supplies, Dave Cawley, greatly upset some people on here and is not every one's drinking buddy and that, I feel understandably, tainted his products to a high degree. Its a good idea to always check out opinions and experience of products on other forums from people such as Grommit and the like.

All the very best on your Tekko journey, mine, as it stands today, has relegated my Linn Sondek LP12 (modded) to second place.

:)

[twotone]

Don't worry about the TimeStep supply Tony, I used the basic model first, then the HE psu from January 2011 until now and both did the business for me. I'm now waiting delivery of the Timestep T-01psu having got a good trade in deal on my HE (could still live happily with this one). The man behind these power supplies, Dave Cawley, greatly upset some people on here and is not every one's drinking buddy and that, I feel understandably, tainted his products to a high degree. Its a good idea to always check out opinions and experience of products on other forums from people such as Grommit and the like.

All the very best on your Tekko journey, mine, as it stands today, has relegated my Linn Sondek LP12 (modded) to second place.

:)

Thanks Ron, was a bit pissed off that I seemed to have bought a dodgy bit of kit, trying to find info on TAOS just to install the thing was un-real of course there was Hugo's sticky thread but even that hardly mentions Timestep.

Was a bit faulty towers as in 'don't mention the war!' The DC guy must have pissed off a lot of peeps judging by the lack of info available re the PSU.

Tony

[Audioman]

DC didn't piss off a lot of peeps but there was a specific issue in the way he treated a certain bearing manufacturer. My guess is there was no money in importing the said item for him but he preceded to suggest the product was flawed and continued to push his own inferior product. In fact DC was the first to produce a decent off board power supply for technics decks. I think the consensus is other (more recent) alternatives are better but by how much I don't know and often at greater cost. In short his actions caused him to fall out with Marco among others. Just because someone has been banned from the forum should not suggest in any way their products are unworthy of consideration.

[Marco]

In fact DC was the first to produce a decent off board power supply for technics decks

Just a point of correction, Paul. KAB USA were in fact the first company to produce a dedicated, high-quality off-board PSU for the SL-1200 - WAY before Cawley came on the scene. I know because I used to own one! ;)

In fact, Kevin Barrett (from KAB) was most probably modifying Techies before DC started his Sound Hi-fi business... I imported my whole (fully KAB-modified) SL-1210 from the States in 2007, and then started the modded Techy craze on AoS, when it was launched, one year later! :eyebrows:

For those curious about KAB, check out their website: http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/ I still have an excellent relationship with Kevin - he's a top bloke.

Oh, and if you fancy a giggle, read my very first impressions of the Techy on Audiocircle (from July 2007), before AoS was born: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=oj8nf3rn8drci6fjg5ut6hg2d4&topic=43641.0

Marco.

[Marco]

I couldn't help but sniggering at this quote (from me) on the Audiocircle thread:


"It cost me very nearly £200 in import duty and taxes for the KAB-modified Technics, and that's not including priority shipping by Fed-Ex

But I don't regret it for a SECOND. I carried out quite a lot of research before I decided to invest in the KAB mods and the SL-1210, so I had a good idea what to expect. Kevin from KAB is also very professional and great to deal with. It's really a fabulous T/T and (probably) unique in the UK.

I've spoken to some key figures in the UK hi-fi industry recently who are *very* interested in my findings, and whom I shall be speaking to at length at this year's London hi-fi show. This thing is a total giant killer and so good that it deserves to take off big time. The only trouble is some leading UK belt-drive T/T manufacturers might not be too happy at the prospect...

Do I care? NO. It’s time now for the direct-drive revolution that should have happened 30 years ago!!"


Whilst there wasn't exactly a revolution, I'd like to think that I was influential in putting D/D turntables more 'on the map', on the UK audio forum scene, as well as introducing people to a fantastic sounding T/T (when suitably modded) that has given them many hours of musical pleasure :)

Marco.

[Audioman]

Thanks Marco. I was aware of Kab even before I discovered AOS. However was under the impression their power supply was a more basic affair that didn't eliminate the need for the on board one completely. Hence was under the impression that Dave Cawley's effort was a big step up at the time.

Unfortunately the march of the DD remains rather limited which may have a lot to do with Technics stopping production. Unfortunately with Japanese product this appears to rapidly result in a drying up of spares which leaves only the possibility of buying another table for working parts. Remaining new product or used in suitably mint cosmetic condition has presently become rather more expensive. If you take (as an example) Cawley's fully modded decks from the new old stock he has hoarded, you are in the NA Mentor, TW Acoustic , SME etc price bracket. Also as Mike New is finding, the market for an expensive bearing, especially in relation to the cost of an SL1200, is very limited. I'm sure few wish to or can afford to lavish this amount and most if they can will opt for the high end belt drive option.

Paul.

[Marco]

Thanks Marco. I was aware of Kab even before I discovered AOS. However was under the impression their power supply was a more basic affair that didn't eliminate the need for the on board one completely. Hence was under the impression that Dave Cawley's effort was a big step up at the time.


No problem, dude. But, no, the KAB PSU wasn't basic, or rather any more 'basic' than the Timestep one was.... ;)

More seriously, the KAB PS-1200 was a top-notch PSU for the Technics SL-1200 turntable, and one that I happily used for over a year until I 'upgraded' to the Timestep one, which at the time I thought was better, but later discovered that I'd largely imgined any sonic superiority, due to DC's (then) persuasive marketing bullshit. Once I moved onto using Paul Hynes PSUs, I then discovered what 'upgrading' *really* meant!! :wowzer:

KAB PSU, at Marco Towers in 2007, (before I discovered the joys of valve amps!):


http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8787/06082007087hk5.jpg


Your remaining remarks are fair comment :)

Marco.

[Audioman]

KAB PSU, at Marco Towers in 1997 (before I discovered the joys of valve amps!):


Marco.

1997 ?

[Marco]

Ha - apologies... It should've been 2007! I shall amend the post accordingly :)

Marco.

[Macca]

Lol you lost a decade there Marco - I do that occasionally too. Depressing isn't it?

[kininigin]

Darren, get a Paul Hynes regulator circuit and build the rest of the PSU round that. That's what I did and I'm very happy with the outcome. :)

I can add an on board reg later on and bump the output to 27 volts as well, so sorted for future updates.

I haven't done anything like this before,so don't really know what's involved.I have a soldering iron and a multimeter which i have never used :lol: (thanks Mr Beresford :)) I will probably have a play around with the stock technics psu till i get some funds together!

[Marco]

Lol you lost a decade there Marco - I do that occasionally too. Depressing isn't it?

Indeed... I blame the Absinthe.

Marco.

[kininigin]

Thanks Darren, yip still enjoying the deck and the Timestep, I did come across some of your replies to the rather, ahem, unsavoury comments from it's former owner.

Couldn't have been easy selling the thing after that stuff Darren but I did also read an excellent thread, on the Wam, from Grommit, regarding his experiences with the Timestep PSU which is one of the reason I actually installed it rather than stick it on e-bay and take a hit.

Anyway I'm more than happy and I can't see me moving the Technics or the Timestep on in the near future unless something better turns up at reasonable price.

Best of luck with the DIY PSU though, sounds interesting from what I've read.

There are some pretty decent tips re PSU DIY design and build on that American site that sells loads of Technics gear the name of which escapes me at the minute.

Regards

Tony

I was perfectly happy with the timestep and if i didn't run out money,i would still be using it for years to come i imagine! I would quite like to get into more diy stuff,it's just finding the time to find out things and put them into practice i'm having trouble with! :lol: I'm just going to see what i can do with the stock psu for now!

[Marco]

It's an adequately good PSU, Darren, and if you don't know what else is out there that's better, then it's perfectly conceivable that you'd want for no more. However, when you compare it with other units that are designed by people with *real* know-how in power supply design, it's simply shown up for what it is: no more than adequate.

When/if you get back to looking at quality off-board PSUs for the Techy, I'd audition those from Paul Hynes and Nick Gorham (distributed via MCRU). Those really are a different ball game altogether! :exactly:

Marco.

[kininigin]

It's an adequately good PSU, Darren, and if you don't know what else is out there that's better, then it's perfectly conceivable that you'd want for no more. However, when you compare it with other units that are designed by people with *real* know-how in power supply design, it's simply shown up for what it is: no more than adequate.

When/if you get back to looking at quality off-board PSUs for the Techy, I'd audition those from Paul Hynes and Nick Gorham (distributed via MCRU). Those really are a different ball game altogether! :exactly:

Marco.

I hear what your're saying Marco.The trouble i have now though is,if i was to get a PH,or NG ect,would i be getting the full benefit of those psu's without a MNB? By the same token the standard bearing i have now is adequate,so maybe adding a super duper psu will be a waste of time and likewise a new platter will be as well?? So i'm not sure i want to spend lots of money,to do half a job so to speak.

[MartinT]

would i be getting the full benefit of those psu's without a MNB?

No.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Straight to the point :lol: but I also have to agree.

[Marco]

I hear what your're saying Marco.The trouble i have now though is,if i was to get a PH,or NG ect,would i be getting the full benefit of those psu's without a MNB? By the same token the standard bearing i have now is adequate,so maybe adding a super duper psu will be a waste of time and likewise a new platter will be as well?? So i'm not sure i want to spend lots of money,to do half a job so to speak.

Nah, don't worry about that. The effect of a high-quality off-board PSU is totally independent to that of a high-quality bearing, so you will hear the sonic benefits of the former, regardless.

Also, the stock Techy PSU is not as good as the stock bearing - the PSU is the weaker link - (particularly in terms of its location underneath the platter), so there is more mileage in upgrading the PSU. As far as the platter goes, I'd say that as long as you're using a decent mat on it, which dampens out its inherent resonance, then it's perfectly adequate to use until you can afford something like a Funk Firm one.

Therefore, your upgrades in order of priority are, when funds permit (in terms of the items you've mentioned):

1) PSU.

2) Bearing.

3) Platter.

Hope this helps :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Straight to the point :lol: but I also have to agree.

Ha - I've just read your replies... Sorry, chaps, I disagree. Hey, it's all about opinions! However, I fail to see how not having an MNB would not allow Darren to hear the sonic effect of fitting a superior PSU....

Marco.

[kininigin]

Interesting to see different opinions on this! It's all academic atm anyway,i don't even have a phono stage back yet :lol:

So if a better psu lowers the noise floor and the std bearing introduces more 'noise' into the TT,compared to the MNB,will i not lose some of the benefits of the better psu? Am i understanding this right?

If thats' the case,a 'worse' psu will have the same issue i guess anyway?

[MartinT]

I believe I answered the question accurately as you asked whether you would gain the 'full' benefit ;)

[kininigin]

I believe I answered the question accurately as you asked whether you would gain the 'full' benefit ;)

Haha quite! Ok then,in your opinion do you think there would be worthwhile improvements in using a PH,NG ect psu, with the stock bearing considering the cost of said psu's?

[kininigin]

Therefore, your upgrades in order of priority are, when funds permit (in terms of the items you've mentioned):

1) PSU.

2) Bearing.

3) Platter.

Hope this helps :)

Marco.

Are there alternatives to the MNB?

[Marco]

So if a better psu lowers the noise floor and the std bearing introduces more 'noise' into the TT,compared to the MNB,will i not lose some of the benefits of the better psu? Am i understanding this right?


Yes, but it's a different type of noise: one is electrically induced and the other mechanically. There is no 'correct' answer here, as results will vary from T/T to T/T and from system to system. However, my experience tells me that, generally, the former is more sonically intrusive, especially considering (as I said before) that the stock PSU is the weaker link. Therefore, its deficiencies will likely be more obvious and intrusive, sonically, than those of the stock bearing.

I really don't think you'll find many people who would advise someone starting from scratch, on modifying an SL-1200 or 1210, to upgrade the bearing first, before the PSU - and therein effectively lays the answer to your question ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Haha quite! Ok then,in your opinion do you think there would be worthwhile improvements in using a PH,NG ect psu, with the stock bearing considering the cost of said psu's?

I'm sure that Martin will offer his own view. However, I would say most certainly yes, as of the two (stock PSU and stock bearing), the stock bearing is the higher quality item, and therefore will stand upgrades better to other parts of the T/T.

Marco.

[kininigin]

Ok.i've got a few things to chew over,i'll stop hijacking the thread now,i'm getting carried away :lol:

Sorry Tony.

[Marco]

Are there alternatives to the MNB?

Not if you want a bespoke item, designed from the ground up. In that respect, Mike has currently no rivals. However, there are a few companies who modify and improve the stock bearing, for example Vantage Audio and Timestep. I think Origin Live also do one.

Personally, I'd stick with using the stock bearing until I had enough funds to buy an MNB, rather than waste money on a 'tarted up' one, as quite simply, there's nothing to touch it :)

Marco.

[kininigin]

Not if you want a bespoke item, designed from the ground up. In that respect, Mike has currently no rivals. However, there are a few companies who modify and improve the stock bearing, for example Vantage Audio and Timestep. I think Origin Live also do one.

Personally, I'd stick with using the stock bearing until I had enough funds to buy an MNB, rather than waste money on a 'tarted up' one, as quite simply, there's nothing to touch it :)

Marco.

I had a mnb for a very short while,so know the difference it made to my tt.Mike is apparently not likely going to make any more by the looks of it.Or have i got this wrong? Hence my questions about psu's and the stock bearing!

[Marco]

I suspect that opportunities will arise again, in due course, for Mike to produce another batch of bearings. I don't believe that it's the end of the line yet, but Mike will need to sort out his website, in terms of tailoring it to generate sales, as well as becoming more proactive, generally, in selling his bearings to potential customers. Quite simply, his 'laidback' approach has run out of steam...

My suggestion would be for Mike to approach David Brook (MCRU) and thrash out a deal whereby David funds (or partly funds) the upfront cost for the next batch of bearings that is produced, in return for becoming the UK and European distributor, and obviously is suitably rewarded, in terms of profit margin from future sales, for his investment.

I'm pretty sure that if David had some stock of Mike's bearings, that he would be able to sell them, both on here, and through his website. Therefore, David could handle sales in the UK and Europe, and Mike could take sales directly from his website (once it's working properly), from Australia, America and Asia.

I'm sure that could work and keep things ticking along nicely! :)

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

It would do unfortunate things to the price though Marco. It's already an expensive product in absolute terms - there are, I'm sure, plenty of people who would have filled Mike's order book many times over, had the price been less restrictive (no malice intended towards Mike, but it's a plain fact). Inserting another link in the chain can't make it cheaper - David or anyone else would want their pound of flesh. That would make it even more restrictive, I'd have thought.
Another tack might be for Mike to branch out a bit, away from the Technics TT and try to make his core bearing design applicable to other turntables. That way, the market is broadened very widely at a stroke.

[Marco]

I think your second suggestion, Chris, is an excellent one, and something that Mike should definitely consider.

You're also right to an extent about the cost of involving David, as a middle man. However, you also have to bear in mind that the price Mike is currently charging for his bearings is effectively a retail price, i.e. with a margin built-in, after his costs, to make whatever profit he thinks is justifiable for his efforts.

However, it wouldn't be sensible for Mike to supply David with the bearings at the same price he retails them for, and then for David to add his cut - that would just be silly. The cost to David would have to be trade, rather than retail, thereby reducing the retail price to the customer accordingly, minus that margin, and therefore allowing David to add his cut, hopefully without the final price becoming much more than it is now. I don't think it's in anyone's long-term interests to be too greedy!

Basically, Mike would have to work out a trade price to charge David, which covers his costs and gives him some profit, yes less than before, but in the hope that David will be able to generate more sales (something I have little doubt about), and therefore pay for more bearings to be produced, in order for Mike to make his money. Furthermore, David would need to be happy with the return he's getting on his investment, and so the price that Mike charges him for the bearings would have to allow sufficient leeway for David to make an acceptable profit.

In my opinion, David has the potential to generate more sales than Mike has been able to do so far, therefore even though Mike would be making less profit on an individual sale, he would gain in the long term, in terms of quantity of orders. Add also the fact that, as David is based in the UK, his customers there won't have to pay any tax or import duty on top of the retail price, as is the case now with buying directly from Mike in Oz, nor will they have to wait ages for them to arrive from the other side of the world, and I think it starts to become a viable proposition :)

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Nice idea, Marco, but I can't see there being enough in the trough for all concerned while ensuring a price that remains attractive to a potential buyer - Mike has already proved that saturation point for this item, to this market, has been almost reached at the current price. The formula needs addressing - times is tough out there for everyone.

[Marco]

I agree - but I think it's workable, especially as I know that David has long wanted to add Mike's bearings to his product portfolio ;)

The two of them just need to get their heads together, not be too greedy, and focus on providing a valuable service to all Techy aficionados - and there *are* plenty out there. Yes, times are tough, but people can always save up for things, as long as said things are actually available in the first place to save up for!

Marco.

[Mike_New]

I have e-mailed Dave today,
My records show that I discussed the idea with Dave way back in Jan 2011 but I believe that when he did his calculations he found that it would not be commercially viable for either of us. I am only to willing to persue the idea further, but I believe that any commercial arrangement will predicated on how many Dave could commit to up-front. As I have said many times these are very high accuracy components (that is why they are so good) and required expensive machine tools and hand fitting by people who do this type of work for aerospace and medical applications.
If I could place an order for 100 units then prices would start to become viable for both of us, but this would entail a considerable cash outlay for both of us which would need to be returned as sales in a reasonable time in order to retain cash flow. I just do not think that there is this sales potential out there.

[MartinT]

I'm sure that Martin will offer his own view. However, I would say most certainly yes, as of the two (stock PSU and stock bearing), the stock bearing is the higher quality item, and therefore will stand upgrades better to other parts of the T/T.

Yes, I agree with that and an external PSU must be the first step in modification, in that it suddenly opens up the sound in a way that makes you want more. The PSU is the key, the bearing should come next. The two together create a result that really gives insight into the music, but keeps what the Technics delivers so well: dynamics, slam, bass extension, rhythm.

[Marco]

I have e-mailed Dave today,
My records show that I discussed the idea with Dave way back in Jan 2011 but I believe that when he did his calculations he found that it would not be commercially viable for either of us. I am only to willing to persue the idea further, but I believe that any commercial arrangement will predicated on how many Dave could commit to up-front.

Hi Mike,

Let us know how it goes. I'll also have a chat with him about it.

If the retail price of the bearing to UK customers, with David involved, isn't too far off what you're charging now direct (you really need to charge him the minimum trade price possible, per unit, to help achieve that goal), then I think that with the added convenience of people being able to buy from a UK supplier, minus tax and import duty and lengthy waiting times for orders to be received, it could make a significant difference to the amount of orders you get.

Failing that, you could try Kevin, at KAB USA. He's got a huge and well-established customer base, at the right side of the world for you, and a website geared up for selling a vast array of Techy mods. I'm sure that he would consider the addition of your bearing as an asset to his product portfolio. I could put a good word in for you, too :)

Marco.

[MCRU]

I have e-mailed Dave today,
My records show that I discussed the idea with Dave way back in Jan 2011 but I believe that when he did his calculations he found that it would not be commercially viable for either of us. I am only to willing to persue the idea further, but I believe that any commercial arrangement will predicated on how many Dave could commit to up-front. As I have said many times these are very high accuracy components (that is why they are so good) and required expensive machine tools and hand fitting by people who do this type of work for aerospace and medical applications.
If I could place an order for 100 units then prices would start to become viable for both of us, but this would entail a considerable cash outlay for both of us which would need to be returned as sales in a reasonable time in order to retain cash flow. I just do not think that there is this sales potential out there.

Wrong! :)

[Marco]

Have you guys cut a deal? :)

Marco.

[Audioman]

Just a thought. If these bearings could be manufactured in much larger quantities the cost to Mike should be greatly reduced and hence a distributor's retail price could remain close to the current level or maybe even less. Of course it would require an investor (David or somebody else) to be prepared to finance the cost of stock that may only sell fairly slowly. Any return may be a long term investment (or gamble) in that case. Another thought, I do wonder if these could be manufactured under licence more cheaply in the UK.

[Mike_New]

Hi Paul,
I believe that making them in the UK has already been investigated, and discarded as not being practical cost and margin wise.
What people must understand in this economically driven world is that investment in manufacturing a product costs money!
And as you say Paul "a long term investment" Sure if someone came along and said 'hey I will buy $15,000-20,000 worth of bearings' then I could get some leverage on production costs. I could even possibly have the housings NC machined. But the seller would be expecting to sell at least two units per week in order to get his money back in a reasonable time frame from the point of view of a sensible cash flow.
Until now I have been able and willing to do this on a small batch run basis, with the insurance that the depoits would underwrite the production costs and ensure that I was not left holding many thousands of dollars worth of stock for six months or more.
As I have said before there is not a large market for a mass produced product of this quality.

[Marco]

I'm just hopeful, Mike, that you can do a deal with David. I'm pretty confident that will improve things significantly :)

Marco.

[Mike_New]

Hi Marco,
We are working on it.

[Marco]

Excellent... Btw, there's no reason why you couldn't also use KAB to distribute your bearings in the US, etc, with David covering the UK and Europe. May as well try and 'pool the resources', as it were!

Want me to put a word in with Kevin? :)

Marco.

[kininigin]

Hi Marco,
We are working on it.

:mex: I hope something can be worked out,your fantastic bearing deserves to be out there!

[Mike_New]

Hi Marco,
I did have contact with Kevin some time ago, but nothing realy happened. If you think you can help then I would be eternally greatfull.

[Marco]

No worries, mate. Leave it with me :)

Marco.

[Tarzan]

Hi Marco,
We are working on it.


:popcorn:

[twotone]

:hijack:

[Mike_New]

Hi Tony,
I guess your right about that. It's the way things go here on AoS.
However when you decide to start upgrading I will give you a good price on a Bearing in conpensation.

[twotone]

Thanks Mike, couldn't afford it however.

I'm actually amazed at how good the technics sounds in stock form, especially with a decent cartridge.

Certainly the best sounding vinyl I've ever heard played on any deck that I've owned, not that I've owned many to be fair.

I never really thought you could get vinyl sounding as good with just an 'ordinary' set up such as the one I have.

Cheers

Tony

[Magna Audio]

Nice.
I'd loose the dustbug though - you can see from the photos it is dumping dust rows on your records. How effective it is at grabbing these up before your stylus hits them is the question...
A Zerostat gunning and carbon fibre brushing before each playing does wonders.

[MartinT]

...and Nagaoka inner sleeves.

[twotone]

Nice.
I'd loose the dustbug though - you can see from the photos it is dumping dust rows on your records. How effective it is at grabbing these up before your stylus hits them is the question...
A Zerostat gunning and carbon fibre brushing before each playing does wonders.

Hi Steve, I use a carbon fibre brush but it doesn't really pick up the dust from the records it just moves it about.

The dust problem is worse on new vinyl btw.

Need to have a look at the Zerostat gun though, that sounds 'interesting':eyebrows:

[twotone]

...and Nagaoka inner sleeves.


Thanks Martin, I've got some of these I think but most of my vinyl are in paper sleeves.

[MartinT]

It's really worth buying a few packs of 50 and putting all your vinyl in them (keep the paper sleeves and put the record + inner sleeve in as one). The static dissipates over time and your vinyl becomes totally static free.

[Magna Audio]

Hi Steve, I use a carbon fibre brush but it doesn't really pick up the dust from the records it just moves it about.

The dust problem is worse on new vinyl btw.

Need to have a look at the Zerostat gun though, that sounds 'interesting':eyebrows:

Hmm, yes it can be a problem. I have both an all CF brush and one with brush / felt pad / brush. I use the latter more.
Once I've wet cleaned and separate / brush each time I hardly ever need to wet clean again.
The poly lined inner sleeves are essential. I've not tried Nagaoka. Bet they are good as Martin reccomends.

[Marco]

Nice idea, Marco, but I can't see there being enough in the trough for all concerned while ensuring a price that remains attractive to a potential buyer...


Ahem.... Care to revise that view, me old mucker, given recent developments? See here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?26337-The-Mike-New-Technics-Bearing-now-at-MCRU&p=456055#post456055

;)

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Excellent - delighted that I may yet be proven wrong.
I hope, for those who want to buy one, that it proves to be a sustainable proposition for all concerned.

[MCRU]

Excellent - delighted that I may yet be proven wrong.
I hope, for those who want to buy one, that it proves to be a sustainable proposition for all concerned.

Cannot see there being any problems unless the AUS dollar suddenly changes dramatically against the pound! :)

[Mike_New]

It' still going down at the moment!!!! can't afford Frence wine anymore.

[Marco]

Frence wine? Is that a new grape variety, then? :D

Marco.

[Mike_New]

sorry about that, but you know what intended.

[Marco]

Haha - sounds like you've been drinking too much of it!! :D

;)

Marco.

[CageyH]

But living in Oz, why would you want French wine?
It's a shame I can't pay for a bearing upgrade with wine.... :champagne:

[Marco]

Lol... Maybe he prefers it? I know that I (as an 'old world' kinda guy) do! ;)

The only thing that might swing it in favour of Oz wine, was if I had a source for the finest Shiraz, direct from a vineyard!!

Marco.

[CageyH]

The old world/new world would probably be as heated as belt drive/direct drive debates.
Anyway, rather than hijacking someone else's thread, I have started my own.

I look forwards to reading your responses whilst sipping a nice Cotes du Rhone...

[Marco]

What section have you put the thread in? :)

Marco.

[CageyH]

This one.
At present, it's one post down.

[Marco]

Lol... I thought you meant a thread about wine! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[CageyH]

That could get messy. :cool:

[Mike_New]

Hi Kevin,
Check with Dave Brook I am sure he will take a dozen cases of good wine as payment, you could deliver it to him.