NVA substitutes?

[moonshiner]

Hi there,

new member in need of some advice. I currently own NVA amps and cables:

P50sa pre
A30 power
2m LS1 speaker cable
30cm SSP (allegedly in the post....)

Source is Cambridge Audio Azur340c into Beresford DAC.
Amps are driving Ruark Talisman III speakers.

I haven't heard many amps (mainly low budget) so the NVAs were quite an improvement. Alas i have to sell them and am looking for replacements that will match/improve the sound quality. Any input appreciated.

cheers

james:)

[chelsea]

Why do you need to change them?

[Andrew B]

If you like the NVA sound, I think you will like the John Farlowe era Exposure amps. Try to find a 7/8 pre/power as a good starter.

If you fancy an integrated, how about the Onix OA21?

Nva amps are hard to better for anything like the money IMHO. If you put a price on the things you want to sell and stick them in the classifieds here, I'm sure you'll sell your amps. Personally, I'd split them, and price everything separately. I reckon you will make more that way.

Good luck :)

[moonshiner]

Hi Chelsea,

i need to change them because the entity who manufactures them has told me he will no longer provide customer support. I am currently in dispute with him over missing interconnects.

Thanks for the advice Andrew - will look at your recommendations. Probably will sell them separately.

cheers

james:)

[Marco]

Hi James,

Welcome to AoS :)

I'm in no position to judge the situation you're involved in with Richard Dunn, as I don't know the facts from both sides. However, as I'm a firm believer that there are two sides to every story, and to provide some balance, here is RD's response, taken from the Hi-fi Subjectivist site (www.hifisubjectivist.org), where he operates:


I have done nothing of the sort, I will support his nva product, all I said to him is what is posted at the returns thread. "Some people just take the piss - I really don't want people like this as customers. For them I say go buy something else and leave me alone."

I will support and provide warranty for any of his stuff, but he takes responsibility for it, all I take responsibility for is the repair, but I would appreciate it if he kept his banshee of a wife away from me.


The relevant thread can be found here: http://www.hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44759&start=2190

I make no comment, save to say that, despite his many faults, RD is not known for his poor customer service - indeed quite the opposite. I'll leave it up to you whether you choose to comment further on the matter, either here or on HFS.

In any case, good luck with finding your interconnects. If we can help at all, please let us know :cool:

Marco.

[AlanS]

Nice balanced post Marco.

[Audioman]

Hi Chelsea,

i need to change them because the entity who manufactures them has told me he will no longer provide customer support. I am currently in dispute with him over missing interconnects.

Thanks for the advice Andrew - will look at your recommendations. Probably will sell them separately.

cheers

james:)

As I understand your interconnects have been delayed in the post. Isn't this the responsibility of the Post Office. Did you send them by tracked delivery? Looks like he received and returned them - so you will have to be patient. So why sell all your kit because the Mrs pissed Mr Dunn off. I'm sure if you have future problems with the amps he will service them and you are polite. Sounds like you are using our forum to just dump on Dunn. Rather different to our mutual piss taking and banter across both forums I think. I suppose you are acting on instructions from 'Her Indoors' with this proposed disposal.

[moonshiner]

Hi Marco,

That's the second time he has insulted my fiancee. He is a liar and twister. I suspect he has some form of personality disorder. He blocked my IP address without warning after a few obtuse PMs. I answered his questions in a civil manner while he refused to answer mine directly. I have no wish to correspond with him again. He hung the phone up on my fiancee and then refused to answer the phone. Some customer service. He has made a big mistake calling my "wife" a "banshee".

Regards

James

[Yomanze]

Hi Marco,

That's the second time he has insulted my fiancee. He is a liar and twister. I suspect he has some form of personality disorder. He blocked my IP address without warning after a few obtuse PMs. I answered his questions in a civil manner while he refused to answer mine directly. I have no wish to correspond with him again. He hung the phone up on my fiancee and then refused to answer the phone. Some customer service. He has made a big mistake calling my "wife" a "banshee".

Regards

James

Assume this is you: http://www.hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=44899#p69603

[moonshiner]

Audioman, you are way off the mark here. I have no wish to shit on anyone - i came here looking for advice on amplifiers. If you have nothing constructive to say please don't post. Your suppositions are wrong and yes the matter is being dealt with by the post office.

Regards

james

[Audioman]

Audioman, you are way off the mark here. I have no wish to shit on anyone - i came here looking for advice on amplifiers. If you have nothing constructive to say please don't post. Your suppositions are wrong and yes the matter is being dealt with by the post office.

Regards

james

Richard Dunn can be awkward - if you try and pick a fight. A bit of politeness and diplomacy goes a long way. Perhaps you would be better to handle these matters personally in future. Does sound more an announcement that you are selling everything NVA for personality reasons rather than an upgrade? My advice would be to keep the amps unless you want to spend a lot more money.

Paul.

[moonshiner]

Sorry Audioman, in my experience he IS awkward. I did not try and pick a fight. He is the one who went public with all of this. I dealt with him by PM mainly to keep it private.

Now do you understand why i will be selling? It's obvious he loves this kind of thing. I don't. I would rather forget about him.

Regards

james

[Andrew B]

To be fair to James, he simply said that he had to sell and left it at that. It was others questioning him that brought he situation to the surface.

I had read RDs post on HFS and thought I saw a connection. I figured "least said soonest mended" so I didn't go there and didn't ask any leading questions. I still think that maxim has merit here and I'm glad RD has agreed to service the kit.

[kenworthy100]

The Ruark Talisman III is a fine speaker which I believe has an 86db sensitivity, what sort of size of room are you listening in? Did you have an idea of an approximate budget for a replacement amp?

[MCRU]

Another impatient audiophile maybe? If Mr Dunn has done the job and posted the cable back why have a go at him though AOS? Wanting to sell your amps because of a cable repair? surely not?

the amount of customers I get chasing orders after 1-2 days and some along the lines of I needed this "plug" for the weekend why is it not here?

the post office are good but lose a lot of packages or they can arrive up to 2 weeks later

patience is a virtue, they don't consider a package lost until 2 weeks has passed anyway

[Audioman]

To be fair to James, he simply said that he had to sell and left it at that. It was others questioning him that brought he situation to the surface.

I had read RDs post on HFS and thought I saw a connection. I figured "least said soonest mended" so I didn't go there and didn't ask any leading questions. I still think that maxim has merit here and I'm glad RD has agreed to service the kit.

And why do you think questions were asked? We had another member selling NVA that had some issues with Richard. In selling his kit I think James is cutting his nose to spite his face.

[chelsea]

Imo if this is over the delay of a cable i'd keep what you have.

[moonshiner]

No not an impatient audiophile. cable was sent may 3th by registered post - it was his attitude during correspondence that turned me off. He claimed no knowledge of receipt until i told him that it had been signed for on 4th. RD only sends cables by normal post which he does not consider a carrier and cannot be traced. Would you send £80(cost of ssp) by normal post?

Paul i hear what you are saying in regards to spending more money but i am happy to do it for the right kit.

[moonshiner]

Hi Kenworthy,

my room is approx. 5m x 4m plus a rectangular(1m x 2m) area leading to patio doors.

And my budget is about £1200.


cheers :)

james

p.s thanks again Andrew

[MCRU]

No not an impatient audiophile. cable was sent may 3th by registered post - it was his attitude during correspondence that turned me off. He claimed no knowledge of receipt until i told him that it had been signed for on 4th. RD only sends cables by normal post which he does not consider a carrier and cannot be traced. Would you send £80(cost of ssp) by normal post?

Paul i hear what you are saying in regards to spending more money but i am happy to do it for the right kit.

Yes all the time.

[DSJR]

My experience of genuine alternatives on the new market is mainly limited these days by the stuff my old mate sells and I've been lampooned enough, despite the fact that I used to sell a fair bit of it for many years, one firm especially...

Bearing the above in mind, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest you take a gander at LFD to see if they have anything in their small range to interest you - beautifully made, apparently extremely reliable and good sounding, the feel and build inspires confidence..

Many of us are Croft fans and owners and Glenn's service and basic reliability is second to none. No foo bits inside, so spares ain't ever a problem and should be simple for any competent engineer to tackle should the day come when Glenn isn't available. Integrateds from £800 (a grand with phono I think) and pre-power from around £1150 or so...

Other stuff that may or may not float your boat and imported from China include the solid-state XTZ integrated and Cambridge Audio stuff, both well designed and sorted, good sounding and built to a high and lasting standard. Loads of valve gear out there too, but I've said enough for the time being.

[Andrew B]

And why do you think questions were asked? We had another member selling NVA that had some issues with Richard. In selling his kit I think James is cutting his nose to spite his face.

Many people post saying they must sell bits of hifi and not all choose to say why. Often the reasons can be financial but can also be other things such as the birth of a baby etc. Their reasons are their own and not really relevant to the post. Your argument appears to be that no such questions would have been asked if this wasn't NVA involved. I don't see how that is James' fault. He's not responsible for, or connected to the last episode.

I like NVA stuff too, so I can understand your point here. Nevertheless it's up to any individual what kit they have and there are other equally valid items out there. All the OP was after were some recommendations. How about we stick to the purpose of the OPs thread and offer some alternatives?

[moonshiner]

Thanks for the input Dave. Will check out your suggestions.:)

BTW anybody tried the Yaqin tube amps?

Regards

james

[synsei]

You will find as you settle into AoS Andrew that there is a bit of history between this forum and HiFi Subjectivist, Richard Dunn's forum, much of it being quite unpleasant. Richard is very set in his ways and has a very narrow view on the attributes of the hifi industry, much of it revolving around his own company and the products he manufactures and sells. Richard is hyper-critical of hifi manufacturers who sell through dealers, the dealers themselves, and those who buy gear from said dealers. He possesses a remarkable knack for rubbing people up the wrong way and he makes no apologies for doing so, therefore unfortunately he has managed to amass a rather sizeable and dedicated group of critics, many of whom reside on this forum. In fairness his advocates are just as vocal.

I write this only to furnish new members with information so they are able to make an informed choice to avoid any unpleasantness. I have striven to be as fair as I possibly can here to all parties...

[Ali Tait]

Thanks for the input Dave. Will check out your suggestions.:)

BTW anybody tried the Yaqin tube amps?

Regards

james

Hi James, welcome to the forum BTW. Are you interested in valves? Lots of good VFM money in some of the Chinese gear, though you have to be careful of voltages, many having mains transformers specced for 220v, which frankly isn't enough for UK mains.

[Macca]

I agree with Dave the basic Croft pre/power combo should be on everyone's shortlist at that budget level. Particularly if you have vinyl as a regular source.

[moonshiner]

Hi Ali,

thanks for the response.

Yeah, i have been considering tube amps. I have been wondering if the Yaqin amps are good value for money.

cheers

james

[moonshiner]

Hi synsei,

thanks for posting. Good info to know and always aware that not everyone sits on the fence, quite rightly so! Live and let live.

Please don't stop the music!

Regards


james

[moonshiner]

Hi Macca,

How do you think the Croft setup would go fed by a Cambridge Audio cd player into a Beresford Dac?

cheers

james

[Ali Tait]

Hi Ali,

thanks for the response.

Yeah, i have been considering tube amps. I have been wondering if the Yaqin amps are good value for money.

cheers

james

Well, there is a bit of a Scottish Mafia going on, we have semi regular get-togethers. Most of us use valves in some form, so you'd be welcome to come along to the next do if you'd like to hear some valve stuff. Whereabouts are you?

[Macca]

Hi Macca,

How do you think the Croft setup would go fed by a Cambridge Audio cd player into a Beresford Dac?

cheers

james

Impossible to answer! I have used Cambridge 840c CDP - Croft micro basic pre- Croft series 7 power and it was difficult to fault. Never heard a Beresford DAC. It is just a shame not to use the MM stage in the Croft although you can get a line level only version a bit cheaper I think.

[DSJR]

Only ever heard the Beresford Caiman and with stock supply found it a little bit lean-toned and mono-chromatic, as inexpensive "digital" used to be ages ago when the donor 7510 was designed. I'm sure the Bushmaster is in a different league as DAC chips have come on and don't need acres of surrounding components around them to work properly these days.

Cambridge Audio CD players have usually only been criticised for one thing at all their price levels in the past, and that's usually been the possibly tinny casework, which has been damped or designed out in the new models I believe.

Lastly, Croft input impedances are quite high at 47K or thereabouts I think, so shouldn't have any loading issues with any partnering line source I believe and, although they're transparent to the source, cable swaps won't bring about a love or hate relationship either, merely subtle fine tuning should you wish to try. Hope that's a balanced view...

The Croft power amp, even in stock Series 7 form, is very capable, predictable, stable and reliable in use and is fine from 4 ohms upwards. Krell powerhouse into a 1 ohm load they ain't, but since owners of such silly speakers wouldn't even regard Croft as a viable alternative to a US made mega-bling box costing tens of thousands, it isn't an issue.... ;)

[moonshiner]

Hi ,Dave and Macca,

It is the Bushmaster i have. I take your point about wasting the phono stage, its been a long time since i owned any vinyl! But i will definitely check out the Croft offerings.

cheers guys

james

[Gazjam]

James,
Know your in Scotland, if you can travel to Motherwell your welcome to hear my valve amp setup.

[RichB]

Since nobody else has said it I will.... Rega Brio-R

Highly capable, plenty of wallop, built like a truck, decent phono stage and good value if some of the recent prices are to go by.

Before the whole debate kicks off again I only suggest this as I'm very happy with mine 12 months in.

[Gazjam]

crackin' amp.

Only sold mine because I preferred the different universe that valve amps exist in.

[Canetoad]

If there's a Scottish get together I can bring along my Croft Micro 25R for you to listen to if you want. I love it! :)

[julesd68]

Well I see that Richard went around all his neighbours looking for the errant cables this morning and it turned out that someone had signed for them but forgotten to hand them on. Repaired the cables today, they'll be returned on Tuesday. Dreadfully poor customer service from Mr Dunn - must do better ... :doh:

http://hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44759&start=2210

[Andrew B]

Well I see that Richard went around all his neighbours looking for the errant cables this morning and it turned out that someone had signed for them but forgotten to hand them on. Repaired the cables today, they'll be returned on Tuesday. Dreadfully poor customer service from Mr Dunn - must do better ... :doh:

http://hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44759&start=2210

Dreadfully poor service from the bloody Post Office. They are supposed to put a card through your door letting you know it's with a neighbour. I could fill a book with issues, bad service, vandalism and downright dishonesty I've experienced with Royal Mail over the years.

[Figlet108]

...Dreadfully poor customer service from Mr Dunn - must do better ... :doh:
http://hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44759&start=2210

I'm not sure there's EVER any excuse to be rude to customers or insult their wives. I seem to remember Mr Dunn getting upset when his wife was insulted:
http://hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44759&start=1020#p65938

Usual hypocrisy and double standards that we've come to expect...

[Macca]

Dreadfully poor service from the bloody Post Office. They are supposed to put a card through your door letting you know it's with a neighbour. I could fill a book with issues, bad service, vandalism and downright dishonesty I've experienced with Royal Mail over the years.

As you say clearly the fault of the post office for not carding and RD has been out knocking on doors and found it in the end so all's well that ends well. I don't know why people get so het up about these things don't they have any serious problems in their lives? Lucky sods.

[Marco]

Well I see that Richard went around all his neighbours looking for the errant cables this morning and it turned out that someone had signed for them but forgotten to hand them on. Repaired the cables today, they'll be returned on Tuesday. Dreadfully poor customer service from Mr Dunn - must do better ... :doh:

http://hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44759&start=2210

Sorry, Julian, I don't see it that way. It was hardly Richard's fault if the postie gave the package to a neighbour and said neighbour forgot to give it to him! :doh:

What was Richard supposed to do, read folks minds? :eyebrows:

IMO, the fact that he cared enough about the missing cables to go looking for them, speaks volumes for how much he values the service that he offers his customers, and crucially, his long-held reputation in that respect. That's how I see it.

If only he tried as hard to be as nice to them on the phone! ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

I think Jules was being sarcastic, Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Jason,

How's it going? Long time no hear! :)

Wow... I'm surprised you've made that comment. Have you guys had a falling out? In terms of my own position, it's gotten to the stage now where I'm tired of being embroiled in conflict with Richard, and the 'tit for tat' sniping at each other across forums.

Life's too short, and to be honest, I've got far better and more important things to do to occupy my time, therefore I've made the decision to divorce myself from any conflict and let Richard get on with whatever it is he thinks he's justified in doing.

Marco.

[Marco]

I think Jules was being sarcastic, Marco.

If that's the case, cool! However, it didn't come across that way. Sometimes smilies help - especially this one ';)'

;)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

I'm not sure there's EVER any excuse to be rude to customers or insult their wives. I seem to remember Mr Dunn getting upset when his wife was insulted:
http://hifisubjectivist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44759&start=1020#p65938

Usual hypocrisy and double standards that we've come to expect...
Something we have come to expect from over there...
The sad truth is;Marco didnt even insult RD's wife, in fact if anything, his comments were more likely to have been a dig at RD.
A...

[Marco]

That's true. My exact comments were (in a private email to Richard): 'It's obviously Nadia who wears the pants in your house', implying that he was under the thumb.

Therefore, the insult was aimed at Richard, not his wife.

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

That's true. My exact comments were (in a private email to Richard): 'It's obviously Nadia who wears the pants in your house', implying that he was under the thumb.

Therefore, the insult was aimed at Richard, not his wife.

Marco.
:(

[Marco]

Why the sad face?

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Why the sad face?

Marco.
Because its a sad state of affairs when someone has to mislead people in that way to get the reaction they are looking for' hence the :(
A...

[Marco]

Ah, I see wotcha mean now :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Just to clarify matters, and this will be my one and only direct quote from HFS. Richard has just written:


A couple of years ago there was an email exchange with all the usual Marco peculiarities. Pages long full of insult and diatribe and at the end of it he said Nadia was mad to put up with me and should leave me (implied).


I'll leave aside the "pages long full of insult and diatribe" bit, as that is both a huge exaggeration and doesn't take into consideration his OTT behaviour at the time, which prompted said "pages long full of insult and diatribe". That's the big problem with Richard: all he ever takes into account is the reaction he gets, never the (often severe) provocation that leads to that reaction!

The fact is the man would test the patience of a saint.

Anyway, regarding the above, yes, the incident Richard is referring to is correct (and separate to the one I was referring to before), although, as usual twisted slightly to make me appear as the bad guy.

What I actually said was: 'If you behave like this with Nadia (the 'this' referring to his, now well-documented, arrogant and argumentative behaviour), then I don't know how she puts up with you!' Again, the insult was directed at him, not Nadia. That was after Richard had, yet again, driven me to distraction with his belligerence and pigheadedness. Of course, Richard chooses to interpret my comments differently, for reasons that should be obvious.... :rolleyes:

I can assure you that never once have I directly insulted his wife. He does have a cheek, though, making complaints about people's partners being insulted when he's clearly done that to James' fiancée. It's typical of his tunnel vision and hypocritical behaviour. Anyway, this is now the last time I will refer to anything Richard has written on HFS. I'm completely distancing myself from that bollocks in future.

Marco.

P.S Yes, I wrongly brought Richard's wife into the argument I was having with him (out of sheer and utter frustration with him at the time), but the fact is the insult was directed at HIM, not her.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Excellent!
Now that's done with, let's get back to finding a way for James to power his speakers shall we?
Personally, unless there's an overpowering problem with the sound quality, I'd suggest he'd be best off sticking with what he has. What sort of customer support does the owner of an amplifier need, after all?

[Marco]

Personally, unless there's an overpowering problem with the sound quality, I'd suggest he'd be best off sticking with what he has.

I agree. Judging by the relative popularity of NVA gear, due to its sonic qualities, I suspect that, in terms of solid-state amps, he'd likely have to spend WAY more than the value of his current NVA kit to significantly better it.

Btw, as an aside... Myles, if you're reading this, you've only been banned for a week. When that ends (on Tuesday), things will be back to normal. It's the stock software message you received that says your ban will 'never' be lifted...

Your attitude will have to improve in future, however, if the ban is not to be made permanent, so the ball's in your court! :)

Marco.

[julesd68]

Sorry, Julian, I don't see it that way. It was hardly Richard's fault if the postie gave the package to a neighbour and said neighbour forgot to give it to him! :doh:

What was Richard supposed to do, read folks minds? :eyebrows:

IMO, the fact that he cared enough about the missing cables to go looking for them, speaks volumes for how much he values the service that he offers his customers, and crucially, his long-held reputation in that respect. That's how I see it.

If only he tried as hard to be as nice to them on the phone! ;)

Marco.

Hi Marco,

Er, yes I was being heavily ironic - I thought it was pretty clear, but obviously not clear enough ...

I promise to improve on my use of smilies next time ... ;););););)

J

[Figlet108]

Hi Jason,

How's it going? Long time no hear! :)

Wow... I'm surprised you've made that comment. Have you guys had a falling out? In terms of my own position, it's gotten to the stage now where I'm tired of being embroiled in conflict with Richard, and the 'tit for tat' sniping at each other across forums.

Life's too short, and to be honest, I've got far better and more important things to do to occupy my time, therefore I've made the decision to divorce myself from any conflict and let Richard get on with whatever it is he thinks he's justified in doing.

Marco.

Good thanks, and we'll have to catch up properly sometime.

Yes, Richard/NVA and me have nothing to do with each other anymore, either professionally or personally. I did try and end things amicably and politely but full scale war broke out as is Richard's way... The war was fun while it lasted though, I did enjoy it, added a bit of colour to my days :D

Anyway, onwards and upwards. I've logged onto HFS for the last time and made my last post today - AOS is now my home.

[brian2957]

Welcome from another ex HFS member Jason :). Looking forward to reading your posts .

[JazzBones]

I've logged onto HFS for the last time and made my last post today - AOS is now my home.

More fun people and laughter over here Jason... why waste life by being grim and a mizzog, eh :D:lol:? Big welcome home mate.

[Figlet108]

More fun people and laughter over here Jason...

Not to mention the odd thread about hifi :)
Thanks for the welcome.

I feel bad for James that his thread has gone somewhat off course, so I'll add my opinion: as a fellow NVA user, if you like the amps keep them. Separating the man from the product for a moment, the amps are second to none for the price.
In time this will all blow over, all will be forgotten and Richard will I'm sure service your stuff and honour warranties, although other than the cables you are unlikely to have problems. I've had an AP20 for 23 years and it's still going strong.
And I'll tell you what, if your cables break again, I'll happily fix them for you for free myself...

[Gazjam]

James, as we spoke about in PM, yer a local so your welcome to nip over and hear what a good valve amp setup can do.

[Tim]

Good to see you here from me too Jason ;)

[Marco]

Hi Jason,


Good thanks, and we'll have to catch up properly sometime.


Nice one - yup, you must pop round for another sesh. I'd also like to check out your set-up, perhaps once you've finished decorating? :)


Yes, Richard/NVA and me have nothing to do with each other anymore, either professionally or personally. I did try and end things amicably and politely but full scale war broke out as is Richard's way... The war was fun while it lasted though, I did enjoy it, added a bit of colour to my days


Dear oh dear... Like I've said before, the man's his own worst enemy. He seems to thrive on conflict, when you'd think that at his age, he'd want a quiet life? Sad, sad, sad... Richard has fallen out with so many people, and good ones too, that I've lost count. Of course, it's NEVER his fault! :doh:

He really should take a long hard look in the mirror and ask himself why he is the way he is, and try and do something about it before he dies a lonely old man.......


Anyway, onwards and upwards. I've logged onto HFS for the last time and made my last post today - AOS is now my home.

Well, his loss is our gain. Get stuck into the computer audio threads, especially the DIY ones, as your experience in that area will be invaluable to our members. Look forward to seeing you around the place much more! :cool:

Marco.

[Figlet108]

Nice one - yup, you must pop round for another sesh. I'd also like to check out your set-up, perhaps once you've finished decorating? :)


I'd like that. I've actually just put a second system together in my new attic->office based around Quad Electrostatics... interesting times at Figlet Manor...

[DSJR]

Them Quads just keeps turnin' up all over :lol:

[Figlet108]

Yep, ever since me and Theo heard some Maggies at NAS a few years back I've been looking for an opportunity to put an electrostatic or planar system together, and then finally a really nice pair of 2805 turned up on hififorsale recently...

Anyway, I'll start a new thread - we've crapped on James' thread enough already.

[anthonyTD]

Good to see you here Jason! :)
Anthony,TD...

[moonshiner]

Hi folks,

I'm glad the thread has grown arms and legs, its good to know that people are listening!

I have had some great recommendations from various members(you know who you are) and have already started my research, but i am taking my time and there is no rush. I am grateful for all of the advice and wish i had came here sooner!

Once again, thanks for the invite Gaz, i will take you up on that.

And Figlet, thanks for the offer of the free repairs, its much appreciated!

I hear what people are saying about sound quality per pound for NVA amps but i am starting to get the bug again and think its time for a total change.

I am seriously considering the tube amp route and think thats the maybe the next option for me.

cheers
james

[sergiox]

hi guys, im a nva user, basically since i have discovered nva amps i use only them ...i had (and still have) an ap10p (great with Klipsch rf7), an ap40px, an ap70, a pair of a70 monos , and a nva tss mkII, and also a pair of p90 preamp an p50 sa...ive changed lot of speakers but the amps stay here :-)

But if i have to buy something new i will try :

croft
sonneteer
sugden (the a-class integrated probably )
lfd

ciao,
s

[RobHolt]

I'd like that. I've actually just put a second system together in my new attic->office based around Quad Electrostatics... interesting times at Figlet Manor...

Hey Jason, you got some proper loudspeakers at last! ;)

[Figlet108]

Hey Rob, how's it going?
Yep, finally figured out where it's at with speakers :)
Now I just need to learn about room treatment to get the best out of them - the room's a little too small to let them express their true majesty and the bass is a bit too much.

[RobHolt]

Hey Rob, how's it going?
Yep, finally figured out where it's at with speakers :)
Now I just need to learn about room treatment to get the best out of them - the room's a little too small to let them express their true majesty and the bass is a bit too much.

Going good thanks.

I use 63s in a small room and there are ways to make them work extremely well. I'll post up some thoughts for you tomorrow.

Is there a dedicated thread?

regards,

[Figlet108]

I'll start one tomorrow with a photo of my room - really appreciate any help to get them sounding their best - thanks a lot.

[Ninanina]

I had a superb pair of 57's. I loved them, and I miss them but I had a very large room for them to stand a few feet from the back wall then but when I moved I didn't have enough room for them and sadly had to part with them :(

That is one speaker I would have again in a heart beat if I had room for them

[DSJR]

Easy to use 57's in a small cottage living room, just put assorted clutter behind them to soak up the rear energy :) The issue then is the severely beaming treble as if you move your head from side to side and/or up and down. my secret whenever I heard this pair was to sit slightly off axis and forego a little bit of treble..

[Gordon Steadman]

I can never understand this 'the room is too small for the Quads' bit.

We used the 57s in a cupboard in London and they still sound better than anything else. We used them as near field monitors as the bed was three feet from the speakers and the back wall was two feet back from that (no room for chairs!!:doh:)

I reckon its more aesthetics and related problems as they do tend to dominate the room. An understanding wife certainly helps. She loves the 57s as much as I do and would threaten to leave if I suggested replacing them with 'ordinary' speakers.

[DSJR]

I compared my Quad 606 driven 57's to my then ATC SCM20's and in all honesty, there wasn't a huge difference apart from the ATC's having far better dispersion. Hopefully a compliment to both manufacturers here :) Current 'SL' ATC20's have a touch more upper midrange, so this comparison wouldn't have been as fair as these aren't as 'flat' as the originals were, according to a Sound on Sound group test/measurement of different speakers when discussing the ubiquitous yammy NS10's..

[Alan]

That last statement leaves me scratching my head TBH. ESL57s can be devastatingly transparent (within their operating range), so how they can be compared to SCM20s I do not know.

May I humbly suggest the '606 was, shall we say - 'leveling the playing field' somewhat?

[Figlet108]

Bev, David, Gordon et. al, I've created a new thread for my Quads - bring the discussion into there and help me get the best out of them.

Thanks!

[DSJR]

That last statement leaves me scratching my head TBH. ESL57s can be devastatingly transparent (within their operating range), so how they can be compared to SCM20s I do not know.

May I humbly suggest the '606 was, shall we say - 'leveling the playing field' somewhat?

Then you've never heard ATC monitors working properly and believe me, they used to be neutral and very clear when properly powered. Nowt wrong with the 606 either, apart from its looks. Just 'cos it ain't covered in acres of brushed aluminium or black chrome ;)

[Alan]

Obviously not! :) I'd never think to mention the SCM20 and ESL57 in the same breath actually!

And as for insinuating I like blingy amps - give it a break! Mine are so ugly they're in a cupboard - one is in an extruded aluminum case from Maplin, the other is housed in an old rack box! It is a rather nice shade of hammerite black, though.

[DSJR]

:)

[r100]

So the wrath has come down on me too. Even harder than it did at the time Bev got kicked out. Sooo, lets see, I have two NVA A40mk2 that are stuck at Mr. Dunn's den because of a dispute. And I have no more love for NVA stuff even if it does sound good but the guy is bonkers. Any suggestions are welcome. Currently, I'm using a Quad 306 modded with Dada electronics which sounds almost as good but not quite.

So please help me brake the "ban". Feels good to express myself !!

:lol: hilarious:stalks::eek:

edit: and hi Dr if you are reading this which you certainly will as per usual.
edit 2: As predicted this post has already been copied on HFS with partial and lacking information and a trimmed reference thread. Not fair Dr.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well Rupert, given the content of your first ever post on The Art of Sound, I hope you'll not be surprised if you're treated a little at arms length by members until you can show that you're not just here to vent whatever your latest forum related frustration might be.
Please don't use your membership here to draw anyone into yet another ridiculous battle of words between members of the various audio forums that you may or may not have been active on.

A little housekeeping, then please, if you are to stay with us. I'd like you to go to your original Welcome thread, which you posted here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23634) and make the introduction to yourself that you were asked to do when you joined AoS. We ask that you tell us a little about yourself, your system and musical tastes, but perhaps in your case, it would also be a good place to try to convince us that you really are nicer than your first post implies.

[r100]

The thread is closed. I stick to what I said then. And I'm not here to vent my issue with the Dunn but to seek advice on a real alternative to NVA at the same price point but as good or better

[The Grand Wazoo]

The thread is now open.
Now please make a proper introduction as you were asked to in February. This is expected of all members.

[r100]

done !

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well, it's true that you have posted something on that thread, but you have hardly done what was asked of you in February and again just now.
I can see we're all going to get on just fine!

[r100]

I say what I feel and think. That's why I got booted.. but the intro should be ok now I hope.

[Alan]

Hi R100

There are a lot of really good sounding amps out there, NVA is really good, but not wholly unique. You can try Farlowe era Exposure, or several of the old British manufacturers if you don't mind second hand (Ion, Heed, Nytech, Myst, Creek). But if you like the NVA, by all means stick with it. I still have an AP20 and LS1/Supersoundpipe in my office system, and it's great fun.

[r100]

Hi R100

There are a lot of really good sounding amps out there, NVA is really good, but not wholly unique. You can try Farlowe era Exposure, or several of the old British manufacturers if you don't mind second hand (Ion, Heed, Nytech, Myst, Creek). But if you like the NVA, by all means stick with it. I still have an AP20 and LS1/Supersoundpipe in my office system, and it's great fun.

Yep, I like the idea of second hand equipment. Will check them out. Thank's

I feel a bit punch drunk at the moment. Maybe I should just forget about swapping stuff right now and enjoy the sound from my current system with a nice cool beer at my side. The sun is coming out.

[DSJR]

I suggested on your other thread to get the NVA's back. if you really don't feel you can, then take the offered (partial) refund and enjoy more music with your current system.

I don't know how much better the dada mods are to the 306, but understand they're well worth while. Do please bare in mind the 306 inverts the phase of the signals fed it (so does the 34 preamp - and 44 too?), so used on its own, just invert the absolute phase as it can make a profound difference in some systems I find.

[r100]

I suggested on your other thread to get the NVA's back. if you really don't feel you can, then take the offered (partial) refund and enjoy more music with your current system.

I don't know how much better the dada mods are to the 306, but understand they're well worth while. Do please bare in mind the 306 inverts the phase of the signals fed it (so does the 34 preamp - and 44 too?), so used on its own, just invert the absolute phase as it can make a profound difference in some systems I find.

ah ok thanks for that information and you advice.. to me they sound much more open than they did before the mod and I have compared them to NVA and found them to be pretty close indeed.

ps I sent the £ and was immediately suspected of declaring them DOA :mental:

[morris_minor]

Having a read of the HFS threads I was surprised to read this:


No I do not keep record of repairs, I receive them, repair them, and send them back, I am a one man business

This seems an odd way to run a business. Aside from continuity of support, wouldn't you want to record how your time was spent? Just sayin' :scratch:

[synsei]

I suggested on your other thread to get the NVA's back. if you really don't feel you can, then take the offered (partial) refund and enjoy more music with your current system.

I don't know how much better the dada mods are to the 306, but understand they're well worth while. Do please bare in mind the 306 inverts the phase of the signals fed it (so does the 34 preamp - and 44 too?), so used on its own, just invert the absolute phase as it can make a profound difference in some systems I find.

Can we assume for a moment that my brain is out on a lunch date and therefore could you explain in TellyTubby terms what you mean by this please? :)

[Marco]

Dave, he means simply reversing the polarity of the speaker cables, either at the amp or speaker end, which inverts the phase and thus optimises the sonic performance of the Quad amps concerned.

My Croft preamp (and indeed I believe all Croft preamps) do the same thing, as they have been designed that way. Glenn himself alerted me to this, so I simply swap the positive and negative tails of my speaker cables over at the amp end. Like Dave says, the sonic improvement is profound, when everything is connected optimally! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Having a read of the HFS threads I was surprised to read this:



This seems an odd way to run a business. Aside from continuity of support, wouldn't you want to record how your time was spent? Just sayin' :scratch:

Hi Bob,

Could we please keep comments on this thread to NVA amps only, rather than the (arguably disorganised) business practices of their designer? Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

[Rothchild]

Are there any technical resources available to explain why inverting the absolute phase of your system would have any impact on sound quality? It strikes me that if it does then the gear is either faulty or nor designed properly?

I'm quite used to using phase invertion and shifting in recording and mixing (indeed certain techniques such as 'Middle and Side' recording wouldn't work without it) but I've never noticed a difference in straight up phase invertion of the 2 track/master buss.

Not saying it's not true, just keen to learn more.

[Barry]

Can we assume for a moment that my brain is out on a lunch date therefore could you explain in TellyTubby terms what you mean by this please? :)

Dave, the first part of a post of mine (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?11839-Absolute-phase-and-integrated-cartridge-arms), might be of help and interest.

Cheers

[synsei]

Dave, he means simply reversing the polarity of the speaker cables, either at the amp or speaker end, which inverts the phase and thus optimises the sonic performance of the Quad amps concerned.

My Croft preamp (and indeed I believe all Croft preamps) do the same thing, as they have been designed that way. Glenn himself alerted me to this, so I simply swap the positive and negative tails of my speaker cables over at the amp end. Like Dave says, the sonic improvement is profound, when everything is connected optimally! :)

Marco.


Dave, the first part of a post of mine (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?11839-Absolute-phase-and-integrated-cartridge-arms), might be of help and interest.

Cheers

With apologies to Dave, this is one of those occasions when someone says something so simple that it leaves one thinking, "how can that be?" and, "I must be missing something more profound". Having read your link Barry it all makes perfect sense now. I was already over the moon with the sound of the 306 and now it sounds even better. It is most noticeable on drum hits (which is obvious really). Wow, what a lovely amp, thanks guys... :D

[southall-1998]

With apologies to Dave, this is one of those occasions when someone says something so simple that it leaves one thinking, "how can that be?" and, "I must be missing something more profound". Having read your link Barry it all makes perfect sense now. I was already over the moon with the sound of the 306 and now it sounds even better. It is most noticeable on drum hits (which is obvious really). Wow, what a lovely amp, thanks guys... :D

I know this sounds weird, but can you post up a pic of this ''phase'' thingy ;) Did you do this from the 306 only??

[synsei]

You too eh Shane, give me a minute dude and I will oblige :)

[synsei]

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2013-06-06174315.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2013-06-06174315.jpg.html)

There ya go ;)

I have reversed phase only on the amp side of the cables :)

[Rare Bird]

:lol: sorry Dave

[southall-1998]

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/2013-06-06174315.jpg (http://s1019.photobucket.com/user/Sgtgrash/media/Hifi%20Stuff/2013-06-06174315.jpg.html)

There ya go ;)

I have reversed phase only on the amp side of the cables :)

Cheers!!

[synsei]

:lol: sorry Dave

S'ok dude. As I've said above, it was such a simple explanation from Dave that my brain refused to process it. I feel like a prize numpty now... :lol:

[kenworthy100]

Dave, out of interest does your 306 sound any different with the phase reversed?

[synsei]

Dave, out of interest does your 306 sound any different with the phase reversed?

Hi John. I am currently listening to Hotel Paradise from Josefine Cronholm & Ibis, an album I know very well indeed, and the most noticeable improvement is to drum hits, as I mentioned above. The best way I can describe it is that there is more immediacy and realism. I will give it some time though because it is entirely possible I was subconsciously expecting an improvement therefore I am hearing it, if you get me :)

It is worth reading the link that Barry posted earlier as he explains what is happening very succinctly and also why it may not work with with every album ;)

[kenworthy100]

Hi John. I am currently listening to Hotel Paradise from Josefine Cronholm & Ibis, an album I know very well indeed, and the most noticeable improvement is to drum hits, as I mentioned above. The best way I can describe it is that they feel more real and alive. It is worth reading the link that Barry posted earlier as he explains what is happening very succinctly and also why it may not work with with every album ;)

I found when I owned Quad 303's used with a passive preamp it did make a difference, not seismic but certainly there were subtle changes to the overall presentation.

[synsei]

I found when I owned Quad 303's used with a passive preamp it did make a difference, not seismic but certainly there were subtle changes to the overall presentation.

It is for little tips like this that I decided to ignore my previous reticence to join a forum. That was a very good decision I reckon :)

[Marco]

Ya lurves it here because we all revel in our collective daftness, following the lead of 'he who is off his nut', Audio Al! Woo-hoo!! :flasher: :lol:

Marco.

[synsei]

Ya lurves it here because we all revel in our collective daftness, following the lead of 'he who is off his nut', Audio Al! Woo-hoo!! :flasher: :lol:

Marco.

Uncle Marco, can Audio Al be our mascot pweeeeze??? http://www.xs4all.nl/~ernstmul/images/yahoo/51.gif :D

[Marco]

I'm considering some form of election....

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

S'ok dude. As I've said above, it was such a simple explanation from Dave that my brain refused to process it. I feel like a prize numpty now... :lol:

I used my Quad '303' reverse for years. Ive been looking for an old article about it from the late 70's Hi-Fi for pleasure i think! i'll have another look tomorrow loike..

[chelsea]

Having a read of the HFS threads I was surprised to read this:



This seems an odd way to run a business. Aside from continuity of support, wouldn't you want to record how your time was spent? Just sayin' :scratch:

Guessing if your a one man outfit it would be time consuming and sort of pointless.

[DSJR]

Dave, out of interest does your 306 sound any different with the phase reversed?

The 303, 405 and 306 inverts phase I believe, so if used outside of a Quad system, should be wired inverted. Some systems make a far bigger deal of it than others though.. in my experience.

[Rothchild]

Not saying it's not true, just keen to learn more.

Just to share a few of my findings on further reading of this, it would appear that absolute polarity (as it should known, rather than phase - phase relates to time shift) can make a difference to the perception of sound (because as Barry's post observes our ears are more attuned to positive pressure events than negative ones), put simply a kick drum which is produced to emulate the listener standing in front of the kit should 'push' the speaker rather than 'pull' it for more accurate reproduction. The effect of 'correct' absolute polarity should be most pronounced on music with lots of asymetrical waves (such as brass instruments).

However, simply deciding to invert the polarity of your listening rig is unlikely to make a positive difference any more than 50 percent of the time, due to the way records are made (in a recording rather than manufacturing sense) because it purely hangs on the coherence and absolute polarity of the system it was mixed on and whether or not the Mastering Engineer bothered to check the absolute polarity of the recording - and if they did, because music tends to be more than just a kick drum, the decision as to which is best is not so simple as establishing which way the kick moves the speaker cone.

Also, none of your gear 'cares' which way it's moving!

Presumably this 50/50 situation is why Barry's amp has a switch and folk are encouraged to keep notes, you need to determine which polarity each of your records are and adjust your listening system to suit, a blanket change will just 'break' the 50% of your recordings that were already fine!

Interesting stuff nevertheless, thanks for the prompt to dig a bit further in to this.

[Marco]

All interesting stuff... However, I can categorically state that my (phase-inverting) Croft preamp, and hence my system overall, sound broken (compared with how they do when things are right), if I don't reverse the polarity of the speaker connections on my power amp - AND that this applies with ALL recordings I play through it.

I've tested this effect in my system over many years (I've owned the Croft since 2004), sometimes evenly unwittingly when I've disconnected my power amp, for any reason, and forgotten to reverse the speaker cables, and then sat there thinking 'why doesn't this sound as good as usual?'... Friends visiting have also observed the same thing. Therefore, it is most certainly not something I'm imagining.

I guess it's yet another valid example of how theories and/or 'scientific facts', in audio, don't always correlate with the reality of practical experience! ;)

Marco.

[Rothchild]

Interesting, that would suggest that all the source material you have is polarity coherent with itself (ie the absolute polarity of all your recordings is the same). Barry suggests that he didn't notice a difference /improvement on the recordings he tested (potentially the material wasn't suitable for revealing the effect of inverted absolute polarity, and possibly the records he tested may have had differing absolute polarities).

Note, I'm not arguing against the audible effect of appropriate polarity reproduction. Count me a convert on this case.

I guess it's likely that maybe the recording industry is better at maintaining a correct polarity alignment through the recording, mastering and production process than 50/50 (whereby a positive pressure on a mic diaphragm generates a positive charge which drives through, ultimately, to an outward speaker excursion), and I think it would go without saying that for people who care about this stuff it is worth checking and knowing that their system is set to maintain the polarity of source to speaker (by inverting the output on an inverting amp such as the croft), but I still think it's worth being cautious in determining that polarity inversion necessarily sounds better - it does depend on the source (and the reproduction chain being 'aligned' with the source). If you want your music to sound as the band/engineer intended then you should be listening to it with the same polarity as they were when they mixed it (which may have been inverted or not).

[Marco]

Yup, Marc, absolutely. I suspect that there are probably quite a few people who would benefit from assessing this issue and making any changes if necessary.

I had been using my Croft preamp the 'wrong' way, unknowingly, for about 2 years until, one day when Glenn Croft visited delivering my preamp that had just been modified and upgraded by him. I connected it up to my system, to have a listen, which of course then didn't have the speaker cables reversed at the power amp end, and we sat and listened...

Now, those who know him will know that Glenn is not a man of many words, so we were sat there listening (I was pretty pleased with the sound, as I could hear the sonic improvements of the upgrades he'd carried out: change from valve to MOSFET regulation, installation of a huge off-board, dedicated PSU, and an Alps Black Beauty pot, replacing the stock Alps Blue), but when the track finished he told me to hang on a minute until he made a change. Incidentally, he didn't say that the change would cause an improvement.

He went round the back of the amp and did something (at the time I didn't know what, as I was sitting down at the other end of the room) and we played the same track again... The improvement in how realistically the music was presented (in terms of detail retrieval, overall clarity and especially how more convincing the stereo image was) was easily noticeable, and quite surprising.

'Jeezuz!', I said to Glenn, 'What on earth did you do there??' That's when he told me about how his amps phase-invert the signal and that he had simply reversed the polarity of my speaker cables. Therefore, ever since then, that's exactly how I've used them! :)

Marco.

[Rothchild]

Does Glenn offer any explanation why his amp doesn't connect the positive input to the positive output?

As I said in my initial post (and I think your post really validates) this is a manufacturing 'flaw' (not to maintain polarity coherence from in-to-out).

It's also the reason given not to give more than 50/50 on any 2 recordings being presented with the same polarity (because all manufacturers who have boxes in the whole recording and production chain, from mic to speaker, have the opportunity to flip the polarity and if we aren't aware that they have we may never know - unless they come 'round your house and admit it!)

[Marco]

Lol... I don't know if I'd call it a flaw, as Glenn's a perfectionist and has been building amplifiers for too long now to make design decisions that aren't undertaken for good reason. It's certainly also an extremely good sounding preamp, which has outperformed many designs costing rather more (!) so this apparent 'flaw' doesn't appear to be holding things back too much! ;)


Does Glenn offer any explanation why his amp doesn't connect the positive input to the positive output?


He did explain it once, but it mostly went in one ear and out the other. He seemed very sure of the sonic benefits of his decision, though, and I'm sure that someone more technically minded than me would've appreciated where he was coming from.

At the end of the day, I don't get bogged down by the 'whys and wherefores' in audio - I just simply listen... And I intrinsically *know* when something musically sounds right, or not, as the case may be :)

Marco.

[Rothchild]

Lol... I don't know if I'd call it a flaw, as Glenn's a perfectionist and has been building amplifiers for too long now to make design decisions that aren't undertaken for good reason. It's certainly also an extremely good sounding preamp, which has outperformed many designs costing rather more (!) so this apparent 'flaw' doesn't appear to be holding things back too much! ;)

Marco.

Yes you'll note I put flaw in inverted brackets, but the point remains that had he not come around and made the change so that red became black you'd have happily carried on just enjoying the benefits of the PS upgrade none the wiser that you were indeed being 'held back' from the optimum performance that it's capable of delivering when you plug the wires in the 'wrong' way around.

You were already 'pretty pleased' before he admitted the outputs are the wrong way around, so you didn't really 'intrinsically *know*' that there was anything wrong.

Not all of us are fortunate enough have the designer come around and admit that they've created an entirely counter intuitive product. (or perhaps it does say in the manual 'for best performance you should plug the black amp output to the red speaker input'?).

This doesn't detract from our agreement that for those who care about good sound it is valid to check, know and (to a degree) understand the polarity coherence of their system.

[Marco]

Yes you'll note I put flaw in inverted brackets, but the point remains that had he not come around and made the change so that red became black you'd have happily carried on just enjoying the benefits of the PS upgrade none the wiser that you were indeed being 'held back' from the optimum performance that it's capable of delivering when you plug the wires in the 'wrong' way around.


Indeed, or unless I had discovered it some other way. However, it certainly didn't stop me from being able to instantly recognise the sonic benefits of him putting things right, which proves that such factors, in the right system, can be hugely significant. Moreover, if the same applies to Quad amps, then their users are in for a nice sonic upgrade (as indeed Dave, synsei, has already observed), when he made the necessary change to his speaker connections :)


This doesn't detract from our agreement that for those who care about good sound it is valid to check, know and (to a degree) understand the polarity coherence of their system.

Absolutely!

Marco.

[southall-1998]

If I used a Quad 303 with a plain passive pre amp. OK, I phase invert on the amp side, but do I also phase invert on the speaker end too??

Also, does all the input connections just wire ''normally'' on the passive pre? You know, RED-RED, BLACK-BLACK :)

Feeling like a thicko today :scratch::lol:

[synsei]

Just one or t'other Shane. Amp side was easier for me to access ;)

[Audioman]

Personally I think manufacturers designing a product to be out of phase is pretty much unacceptable. It doesn't appear they even make this known unless you ask. Perhaps some electronics expert could give me a technical advantage in doing this. In the case of out of phase pre or power would have thought the easiest thing to do is to cross over the red/white or red/black phono leads between pre and power amp.

[synsei]

Personally I think manufacturers designing a product to be out of phase is pretty much unacceptable. It doesn't appear they even make this known unless you ask. Perhaps some electronics expert could give me a technical advantage in doing this. In the case of out of phase pre or power would have thought the easiest thing to do is to cross over the red/white or red/black phono leads between pre and power amp.

Surely all that would do Paul is swap the right/left channels rather than switch the phase, or am I being dense? :scratch:

[hifi_dave]

Personally In the case of out of phase pre or power would have thought the easiest thing to do is to cross over the red/white or red/black phono leads between pre and power amp.

That is swopping channels and very easily heard. Phase changing is where you swop the pos and neg of each channel.

Many designs are phase inverting but the sonic result is tiny and does appear to vary from track to track. Not worth losing sleep over.

[Clive]

Personally I think manufacturers designing a product to be out of phase is pretty much unacceptable. It doesn't appear they even make this known unless you ask. Perhaps some electronics expert could give me a technical advantage in doing this. In the case of out of phase pre or power would have thought the easiest thing to do is to cross over the red/white or red/black phono leads between pre and power amp.
Some circuits invert phase, this can be corrected it would require an additional active stage in the circuit - which is most likely the reason they didn't do it - few stages = better sound. Swapping ground and hot works sometimes but it can mess up the grounding. Inverting designs should be clearly marked as such so you know to swap at the speakers or use with another inverting design.

[Marco]

Some circuits invert phase, this can be corrected it would require an additional active stage in the circuit - which is most likely the reason they didn't do it - few stages = better sound.


Yup - it's coming back to me now... That's essentially what Glenn told me. I just didn't want to express something that, due to my ignorance, was technically incorrect and be lambasted for it. However, Clive, you've explained it nicely :)

And when you connect his amps up the right way - that'll be why the sonic difference is *so* bloody obvious, as incorrectly wired you would lose that (when correctly implemented) technical advantage! It's nothing really so much to do with the phase recording engineers have chosen for certain music: it's about hearing the effect, sonically, of a shorter signal path... :exactly:

Marc, you now have your answer!


Inverting designs should be clearly marked as such so you know to swap at the speakers or use with another inverting design.

Yup, I've no idea why this isn't clearly stated with Croft products. Mind you, Glenn has never been one for indulging in 'frivolous frippery', such as the provision of an instruction manual! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Marco]

That is swopping channels and very easily heard. Phase changing is where you swop the pos and neg of each channel.


Yup... The latter is only achieved by swapping speaker cables over. Furthermore, Glenn's design decisions here have got nothing to do with making equipment 'out of phase'. I think that Paul needs to understand the concept better.

Marco.

[Audioman]

Yup... The latter is only achieved by swapping speaker cables over. Furthermore, Glenn's design decisions here have got nothing to do with making equipment 'out of phase'. I think that Paul needs to understand the concept better.

Marco.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm just a numpty that connects up stuff as indicated by socket markings and expects it to work correctly. Obviously this is more subtle than I thought. Does Glenn change the way he wires his power amp speaker outputs to compensate then and is this only a problem if you mix and match pre/power makes?

[Marco]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm just a numpty that connects up stuff as indicated by socket markings and expects it to work correctly. Obviously this is more subtle than I thought. Does Glenn change the way he wires his power amp speaker outputs to compensate then and is this only a problem if you mix and match pre/power makes?

In terms of his power amps, I doubt it, as that wouldn't work if the amps were being used with another manufacturer's preamp, which doesn't invert phase. However, I've only ever used Croft preamps in my system. hifi dave I'm sure will answer your query. The phase consideration applies when Croft preamps are used with power amps from another manufacturer.

I'm not sure what the situation is when a Croft pre and power amp are in the equation. That's another one for Dave.

Marco.

[realysm42]

If they are out of phase, why don't they just swap the black and red connectors, noone would ever get it wrong and everyone would enjoy the benefits of the design?

[Clive]

If they are out of phase, why don't they just swap the black and red connectors, noone would ever get it wrong and everyone would enjoy the benefits of the design?
Because there are situations where you need to be sure the -ve connection is also the ground. Generally it doesn't matter but it can.

[southall-1998]

Well, I think Glenn needs to speak more. What a lazy fart :)

[Marco]

I think all that's required is a little note, explaining the situation and what to do, left inside the box, so that customers are fully informed. I know that Glenn sometimes reads the forums, so perhaps he'll bear it mind, or maybe Dave could mention it in his next conversation with him? :)

Marco.

[Rothchild]

Yup - it's coming back to me now... That's essentially what Glenn told me. I just didn't want to express something that, due to my ignorance, was technically incorrect and be lambasted for it. However, Clive, you've explained it nicely :)

And when you connect his amps up the right way - that'll be why the sonic difference is *so* bloody obvious, as incorrectly wired you would lose that (when correctly implemented) technical advantage! It's nothing really so much to do with the phase recording engineers have chosen for certain music: it's about hearing the effect, sonically, of a shorter signal path... :exactly:

Marc, you now have your answer!

Marco.

I would beg to differ, it's absolutely about both the polarity of the recording and the point that, regardless of the shenanigans that occur within an amplifier, it's about making the positive volts come up on the positive post (or clearly indicating that this is not the case). Whilst the length and quality of the signal path is obviously an SQ determinate it's somewhat removed from the point about the benefits of a coherent polarity chain.

Let me explain why:
If the band mixed the record through a croft amp and they hadn't had the benefit of the designer admiting to them personally that the red output was actually -ve they could easily have ended up inverting the polarity if their kick drum channel, as they found it was more punchy that way (given that it causes a positive pressure wave), let's assume that this was a quality setup and that the polarity of the mix then remained the same through to what is printed on the final distribution media. Someone listening on the same Croft amp, who also runs it as indicated, rather than as told (ie red to red black to black) will hear the kick as the band intended (with a positive pressure wave) however Marco's rig would present it 'wrong' (negative pressure wave) as he's corrected for the in-amp shenanigans. This explains why some high end kit has a switch and users keep records of which recordings have what polarity and why the blanket assumption that inverting polarity is an absolute guarantee of better quality. 1.The reproduction system should have consitent polarity through it's signal path (even if this means you have to but a red amp out to a black speaker in) 2. The polarity of the reproduction system must be consistent with the source material (else you'll be getting a negative pressure wave when the artist intended a positive).

This should be as intuitive to understand as it is apparent to hear!

This is nothing to do with the length of the signal path it's about the ability to trust that a bit of gear is not making uncessary or unspecified changes to some of the underlying fudamentals of the material it is processing.

Dave's point is interesting as the obvious thing to do (IMO) is just to swap the coloured caps over on the binding posts but that ignores that there are other standards that might be being adhered to (such as common grounds etc).

[Marco]

I would beg to differ, it's absolutely about both the polarity of the recording and the point that, regardless of the shenanigans that occur within an amplifier, it's about making the positive volts come up on the positive post (or clearly indicating that this is not the case). Whilst the length and quality of the signal path is obviously an SQ determinate it's somewhat removed from the point about the benefits of a coherent polarity chain.


Yes I agree, however, I suspect that the veritable 'night & day' difference I heard when Glenn made the change I mentioned in my system, was primarily due to him exploiting the sonic benefits of the amp's phase-inverting circuit (minimising active stages used), than anything relating to what you've described.

That is why I can clearly hear significant sonic benefits with ALL the recordings I own, not just those that are "polarity coherent".

Like I said too, you now have an answer for why Glenn designed his amps to phase-invert the signal. Knowing him well, and the design goals he values, it’ll have been all about minimising the amount of active stages needed, and hence simplifying the signal path, in order to maximise sonic performance :)

Marco.

[Clive]

Maybe I can clarify one aspect? Shorter signal path suggests length and as has been stated by Marco the important point is keeping active stages down to a minimum. Glenn won't have "designed his pre-amp to be phase inverting"; it's just the outcome of using an odd number of valve stages, if he'd used an even number it wouldn't phase invert but would have one extra stage, which would most likely cause audible degradation. On a high-end & high-priced preamp I'd expect it to be phase correct, on a more hair shirt, SQ at all costs design I'd be ok with phase inverting......provided it's mentioned in the instructions or on the back panel.

[Marco]

Spot on (as usual) Clive :)


on a more hair shirt, SQ at all costs design I'd be ok with phase inverting...


Croft amplifiers are as 'hair shirt' as they come and designed solely with one goal in mind: the best possible audio performance for the least possible financial outlay. In stock form, and particularly when older designs are judiciously modified, they are incredibly satisfying music-makers!

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

Yes I agree, however, I suspect that the veritable 'night & day' difference I heard when Glenn made the change I mentioned in my system, was primarily due to him exploiting the sonic benefits of the amp's phase-inverting circuit (minimising active stages used), than anything relating to what you've described.

That is why I can clearly hear significant sonic benefits with ALL the recordings I own, not just those that are "polarity coherent".

Like I said too, you now have an answer for why Glenn designed his amps to phase-invert the signal. Knowing him well, and the design goals he values, it’ll have been all about minimising the amount of active stages needed, and hence simplifying the signal path, in order to maximise sonic performance :)

Marco.

Just spoken with Glenn and he says " Every amp I make inverts phase except the phono stages. It's system and source dependant whether it's audible. If you use a pre-amp and power-amp combo, you don't have to bother."

As I am aware, quite a few products invert phase, it's not just Croft.

In my estimation, the differences are subtle to say the least and vary with product and the recording. When I have played around with inverting phase, I have found that certain images in a sound-stage will move slightly forward whilst others move slightly back. Reverse the phase and the opposite happens. Which is correct ? Tiny differences which, to my ears, are not worth bothering with but maybe, it might be more obvious with different recordings and/or equipment.

[Marco]

Thanks for that, Dave. The info is useful :)

Like you say, the sonic effect of the phase-inverting, in terms of how obvious it is, will vary from system to system.

As I said, in mine (and perhaps it's because I'm using a non-standard, heavily modified vintage Croft preamp), the different between how my system performs when the polarity of the speaker cables (and thus phase) is reveresed, or not, is extremely significant - and I mean in a fundamental musical satisfaction sense, not in terms of prosaic hi-fi considerations, such as issues relating to tonality.

Like I said before, quite often, due to a lack of concentration, I've connected up my speaker cables the 'wrong way' and sat there thinking: 'my system sounds rather 'off' today', only to look behind my power amp and see the cause of the problem... Then sort it and listen again, and bingo - the magic is back!! :exactly:

Marco.