Techie Tonearm Setting.

[DaveK]

Serious question: -
Can anyone tell me in simple easy to understand language why it is so important to set the Techie Tonearm, or any other tonearm for that matter, truly horizontal to the record playing surface. Bearing in mind it is not possible to get it many degrees away from horizontal, given the geometry of the thing and the adjustment available, so what difference to those few degrees make? At the end of the day (or the tonearm ;) ) the only thing that changes is the angle that the stylus makes with the record groove - or am I missing something, not for the first time? :scratch:
And, in connection with this, my tonearm is marginally higher at the pivot end but seems to be jammed in that position, with the locking lever making no apparent difference to it being unmovable. Before I get my Stilson wrench on it ;) , is it clockwork for lower and anti-clockwise for higher?
TIA,
Dave.

[rubber duck]

The tracking angle of the stylus (or VTA, vertical tracking angle) affects the sound by altering the tonal balance. Generally if the base of the tonearm is higher, the sound will be brighter and vice versa. I think the numbers on the dial at the base of the tonearm indicates whether the base is being raised or lowered. Hope this helps.

[Stratmangler]

Look from around the 4 minute mark

fdxAn64aK3Y

[The Grand Wazoo]

Take very small thing intended to measure another very small thing.
Small thing is designed so it must be exactly aligned in order to measure accurately.
Place it on end of spring.
Place spring on end of long lever.
Move other end of long lever a small distance.
Very small thing moves a long distance in relation to object it is meant to measure.

[Qwin]

Yeh Viperfrank has some great tutorials on youtube for Techie owners.

[DaveK]

Chris (Stratmangler),
Thanks for that - very informative.

Chris (TGW),
Yeah but no but yeah but - I see where you're coming from but the analogy ain't really very appropriate is it. As I understand it a well set up tonearm will be totally rigid (non flexible, no 'play') from base to stylus seating. The stylus is more flexible but only slightly and in an up and down plane with the up and down movement of the tonearm.
I can see where the stylus loading will affect the vertical angle between groove and stylus but the available amount of variation in that angle with anything like an accurate stylus down force will be very limited.
I'm probably not explaining myself here very well so, put another way, if the desirable angle between stylus and groove is perpendicular, the amount of variation possible in that angle by raising and lowering the tonearm base will be very small. My question is can (and if so, how) such a small variation in stylus contact angle be so important. I accept that educated ears and possibly others, say that it is, I'm just trying to understand why.
Cheers,
Dave.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Dave,
We're trying to measure miniscule dimensions. The stylus is very small and cut precisely to sit in an optimum position within the confines of the walls of the groove. The stylus is effectively acting as a pivot with the arm as the beam. A tiny movement of a portion of a millimetre at the other end of a 9" long beam will have a significant effect on the relationship between the groove walls and the facets of the stylus, when you consider the dimensions and geometry of those facets.

For what it's worth, neither of my arms are level! My Zeta is down a little at the back and my Decca is up. That's the way they sound at their best to me.

[Rare Bird]

http://www.ringmat.com/products/turntabletuning.htm

[Qwin]

Dave, the angle of the arm and stylus are locked together.

Alter the arm by 1/2 deg and the stylus angle (VTA) will change by the same angle.

Cartridges are very sensitive to small changes in this angle.

Manufacturers try to work on a nominal setting whereby the cartridge is at its optimum when the arm is level, but it doesn't allways work out that way and different stylus presure or a weak suspension on the cantilever can change the angle and require VTA adjustment to bring it back to the ideal.

In very general terms adjusting the cartridge nose down will give a brighter/sharper presentation.

Adjusting it tail down will have a warmer more rounded sound.

So you can tweak it to a certain extent to suit your system.

As with all cartridge settings a small change can make a big difference. ;)

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

What you're encountering is a common problem with the Techy arm, when used with 'low-bodied' cartridges, i.e. those that aren't 'tall' enough, in order for the arm to sit level with the record surface, when trying to achieve that within the operating range of the Techy arm's built-in VTA adjustment, which TBH, is piss poor (the available level of adjustment, that is, not the VTA adjuster itself, which is great).

The problem is that the Techy arm, in its latter guise [it's interesting comparing it with what the arm used to look like on an original SL-1200, from 1972, when the Techy was an out-and-out audiophile turntable, and where the design of the tonearm was rather different, and IMO, superior], was produced, much like other areas of the T/T, with DJ use in mind.

Subsequently, the construction of the arm had to be rugged enough to withstand abuse from clumsy DJs in night clubs, back-cueing, scratching, etc, which necessitated the use of good quality bearings (also a positive for achieving respectable sound quality, which is why the arm sounds pretty decent, when used for hi-fi purposes), featured a detachable headshell (for obvious reasons), and crucially, in terms of your current dilemma, the arm was primarily designed for use with a Stanton 500AL cartridge (latterly Ortofon Concorde), both of which are 'tallish' cartridges (for DJ and broadcast use) - certainly 'taller' than most audiophile cartridges are today, including your Nagaoka.

Unfortunately, therefore, the useable range of the Techy arm's VTA adjuster was limited for use with those types of cartridges, which is why you're having difficulty getting the arm to sit completely level, with your MP30. I suspect that, at the moment, the arm has been wound down to as low as it will go.

There are, therefore, three practical solutions to this problem:

1) Fit a 'spacer' between the cartridge and headshell, of suitable thickness, to make up for the lack of 'height' of your current cartridge, and therefore enable the arm to sit level with the record surface.

2) Use a thicker mat to compensate, as above, and achieve the same result.

3) Buy a 'taller' cartridge (the current Ortofon 2M range is ideal for that purpose and, sonically, synergise very well with the Techy arm).

Finally, to answer your question regarding VTA adjustment and 'does it matter if the arm is 100% level'? The answer is not always, as Chris has pointed out (ultimately, VTA adjustment, like VTF, should always be fine-tuned by ear, based on your listening preferences), but IME most cartridges perform at their best when the arm is 100% level, and sound a little 'edgy'/bright when the arm is 'tail up' (which I suspect is the case now with your arm), and sometimes distorted during 'difficult' (highly modulated) passages of music.

Generally, for best results, you want to get the arm as level as possible with the record surface, so I'd do whatever you can (as I've suggested) to achieve that. However, if you're perfectly happy with how things sound at the moment, then worry not! :)

Anyway, hope this helps :cool:

Marco.

[indus]

Thanks Marco.

I have exactly the same problem with my AT440. I have the FF mat and the VTA wound down to maximum but the cart is still lower than the base.

[Marco]

No worries, David - now you know why! DL-103/stock Techy arm users will also have felt your (and Dave's) pain..

Nice to see you popping in again, btw. Hope you are well and still enjoying your choons :cool:

Marco.

[indus]

Good to see you on here as well. Since I've popped back I've noticed you're not around as much as you were before.

Still enjoying the choons and have just bought another batch of vinyl. :)

Looking forward to getting my arm changed over to the Jelco

[Marco]

Nice one, dude. I've just been busy with various things, and I'm lucky in having a capable team here, to manage things, when I'm not around. It's also good for me to take a back seat sometimes, and let members get on with it, so that the forum evolves naturally, without excessive input from me :)

Anyway, glad that you're enjoying things. The fitting of the Jelco should cheer things up for you nicely! :cool:

Marco.

[DaveK]

I thank you all for taking the time to respond to a numptie question. I am happy with the sound my Techie is making but, short of packing the platter or the catridge, I will not know if that sound is the optimum available as I cannot adjust the height of the base. That was the reason behind my question.
IMHO, despite what others might say about small movements at one end of a long lever will result in large movements at the other, I do not think that self evident truth is applicable, in fact, rather the reverse. My question, put another way, is how can a relatively small adjustment in the height of the tonearm base, (which can only have a miniscule effect on the perpendicularity of the stylus because of the 'reverse' lever effect) have such a noticeable effect on the sound. As pointed out above, the stylus and the tonearm are effectively locked so if the tonearm can be changed by 5deg (my guess at the maximium - may be wrong :) ), that is the maximum that the perpendicularity of the stylus can be changed.
I am not arguing that such changes can and do occur, the evidence is overwhelming, just trying to get my head round 'how'.
Dave.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Dave, you seem to have missed my point again. Probably my fault. It's not about absolute measurements that I'm thinking of, but rather the adjustment you make relative to the size of the thing you're trying to measure.


........significant effect on the relationship between the groove walls and the facets of the stylus, when you consider the dimensions and geometry of those facets.



Very small thing moves a long distance in relation to object it is meant to measure.

[Qwin]

Dave - If you are setting the offset angle using a protractor, half a degree can make a noticable difference. The same thing applies to VTA angle and azimuth. Very small incriments are involved, I think you just have to appreciate and accept that that is the case and not get overly concerned about it. :D

If you have a low boddied cartridge and are out of the adjustment range of the arm, try a packing piece between the cartridge and headshell as sugested and see if you can find a better result from a lower tail than you are using at present. It may be that you allready have the optimum setting, at least it will put your mind at rest, because I can see that the uncertainty is eating away at you. Try it to satisfy your curiosity and peace of mind, then sit back and enjoy your sytem. ;)

[TobesEtc]

Could someone run by again why it seems the tonearm/vta mount is based so high that even when set to minimum it's s fraction high?

I'm using a funk platter and 2m cart but even with a new techie rubber platter on top and the vta at min, it's still a bit high at the base end.

[Marco]

Read my post #10, Toby! :)

Marco.

[Andrei]

DaveK

I propose a different way of looking at the matter. Rather than think 'Is my tonearm horizontal?' or 'Is my tonearm at the correct angle?' :Think 'Is my VTA correct?' Actually that is not even quite accurate. Think 'Is my Stylus Rake Angle correct?' VTA is 90.0% while SRA is about 92%. The SRA is the more important because that is the angle the master is cut on the lathe. I think it has something to do with pushing away the freshly cut and unwanted material. There are technical articles but Stereophile's Michael (Mr Analogue) Fremer has all the answers. See http://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra

So how do you tell the SRA? Well an electron microscope would be good. A high quality camera with a macro lens and spirit level tripod may do. You can use your eye but some hi-res photos and a protractor would be better. Once you have your system in place you raise or lower the arm base to get your 92 degrees! As for the about 92 degrees, my understanding is that all lathes cut a little of the vertical but there is some variation on that depending on manufacturer.