View Full Version : My new music server
realysm42
21-05-2013, 11:19
I've built myself a new media PC; here's the spec:
Streacom fc5 case (without optical drive)
Amd sempron 2 cores @2.5ghz
Gigabyte mini atx mobo am3
Pico 150w silent PSU
Geil ddr3 8gb @ 1333mhz cas 9-9-9-24 (1t)
2x ssd, one for os and one for storage with sata noise filters on each
Os is w8 64
First truly silent PC I've (not) heard.
Runs OS perfectly as we'll as Jriver without a hitch, I'm really happy with the case, not seen the CPU get hotter than 37c under a prime 95 load and it looks like part of the set up now :)
I couldn't resist the urge to tinker with the feet on the bottom as the metal cups that hold the rubber feet are a perfect fit for RDC cones, so it and its PSU are fully isolated now ;)
Going from 4gb to 8 provided a nice boost to playing from memory, zero buffer time.
Anyone gone this route and taken it a step further with a linear PSU?
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 11:46
I have a linear supply on mine, but I cheated and bought an NVA TFS. Great bit of kit IMHO.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 11:52
.
Anyone gone this route and taken it a step further with a linear PSU?
You are on the way to a very good set-up there Martin and adding a linear PSU will pay dividends. There are lots of routes you can go down here, depending on looks and budget. Bench supplies have a lot going for them, at relatively low cost - at the moment I have a Voltcraft bench supply, which betters a standard SMPS. But if you want the best then get yourself a Paul Hynes, either a ready built PSU or a regulator and build it yourself, which is my next project. MartinT has posted good threads about Paul's regulators, with tips on how to build one.
Have fun, there's a lot to be had out there and a lot of satisfaction from doing it yourself ;)
The Paul Hynes regs make a really good improvement.
Just make sure the PSU can meet the potential current draw a PC can pull?
If your using it strictly for music should be ok though. :)
realysm42
21-05-2013, 13:11
How am I meant to know how many amps to specify?
I know it needs to be bang on 12v (all yellow pico PSUs need this). Is it harmful to ask for a 10a PSU if I only need 5, for example?
not at all Martin.
the server will only pull what it needs.
No harm over speccing it, power supplies actually run at their most electrically efficient when delivering considerably less than their maximum output. The concern is if the psu cant supply enough.
This wont translate to better sound though. :)
realysm42
21-05-2013, 14:05
Cheers Gaz.
337alant
21-05-2013, 14:56
I've built myself a new media PC; here's the spec:
Streacom fc5 case (without optical drive)
Amd sempron 2 cores @2.5ghz
Gigabyte mini atx mobo am3
Pico 150w silent PSU
Geil ddr3 8gb @ 1333mhz cas 9-9-9-24 (1t)
2x ssd, one for os and one for storage with sata noise filters on each
Os is w8 64
First truly silent PC I've (not) heard.
Runs OS perfectly as we'll as Jriver without a hitch, I'm really happy with the case, not seen the CPU get hotter than 37c under a prime 95 load and it looks like part of the set up now :)
I couldn't resist the urge to tinker with the feet on the bottom as the metal cups that hold the rubber feet are a perfect fit for RDC cones, so it and its PSU are fully isolated now ;)
Going from 4gb to 8 provided a nice boost to playing from memory, zero buffer time.
Anyone gone this route and taken it a step further with a linear PSU?
THey are lovely looking cases from quiet PC I have just ordered an FC10 case, Im just a bit unsure about the size of it though I thought they were quite small but Ive just noticed the actual dimention's on the spec sheet :eek:
Still im sure it will still look nice and there should be enough space to build in a nice linear power supply.
I am very happy with the sound quality from my HTPC runing JriverM 18
Alan
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 15:01
not at all Martin.
the server will only pull what it needs.
No harm over speccing it, power supplies actually run at their most electrically efficient when delivering considerably less than their maximum output. The concern is if the psu cant supply enough.
This wont translate to better sound though. :)
Actually, it might. A well overspecced supply may have less ripple at the required current.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 15:05
Alan, yours will 'standard amp size' but double height, or thereabouts, should still fit in a decent rack.
The cases are really nice quality and very solidly made. Be generous with the thermal paste ;)
If I get a linear supply, I'll make sure its got its own case, I think I'm a box whore :eyebrows:
Food for thought, thanks Ali.
Just be aware that all the on-board voltages are generated from on-board switch mode supplies derived from the input supply. I wouldn't go too mad and spend loads...
a fully regulated linear power supply for a pc, would be the size of a house or a big power amp at least
up to 12 amps can be drawn when they start up
custom hifi cables don't make one that is for sure
Paul Hynes
21-05-2013, 16:30
The PR3iEHD-12 DIY regulator module can provide 12 volts @ 12 amps continuous when mounted on a 0.5 degree C per watt heat sink and fed from a quality 300VA mains transformer. This can be achieved in a 2U 19” rack, which is little bigger than the Streacom FC5 I am using for my audio server.
These regulator modules are powering Audio/video servers in many systems worldwide without power issues.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 17:19
I've gone for the mcru's top solution; watch this space.
Actually, it might. A well overspecced supply may have less ripple at the required current.
Aye, true that.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 17:49
Thanks for the input everyone.
Also, does it matter if the PSU is near to the PC?
Getting a little tight for space on the old rack now...
no, not at all Martin.
A well designed PSU wont emit any nasties.
no, not at all Martin.
A well designed PSU wont emit any nasties.
well this one is designed by IMO one of the best designers in the UK (and I have spoken to many over the last 2+ years)
thx
337alant
22-05-2013, 11:36
QUOTE=Mains Cables R Us;446564]a fully regulated linear power supply for a pc, would be the size of a house or a big power amp at least
up to 12 amps can be drawn when they start up
custom hifi cables don't make one that is for sure[/QUOTE]
For a high power computer with lots of plug in cards Xfire etc yes very difficult to achieve 30A at 12V, but just for playing music and an operating system the power requirement is low if you chose the right motherboard.
I chose an ASUS AT5ion-t deluxe mini itx MOBO which uses a lap top power supply, 18DC x 4A, I have measured the current draw from booting up and playing music and it was 2.5A max most of the time less than 1A.
So for me it is easy to build a linear DC supply for this.
This is actually just a single raw power supply and the voltage is divided up on board as every MOBO has voltage regulators so that precise voltages are fed to devices as required.
Just take a look at how many voltage regs they are around the processor :stalks:
Alan
Nice wee board that, runs a bit hot without a case fan though imo.
Think its discontinued?
a fully regulated linear power supply for a pc, would be the size of a house or a big power amp at least
up to 12 amps can be drawn when they start up
custom hifi cables don't make one that is for sure
12 amps for a music server eh?
http://tipsofdivorce.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/speak-no-evil.jpg
12 amps for a music server eh?
yeah...wondered about that.
What Dave said though was a PC not a music server..and he's not wrong.
Graphics cards are the biggest culprits, the big ones need the output from two power connectors and pull a lot of amps.
337alant
22-05-2013, 13:19
Nice wee board that, runs a bit hot without a case fan though imo.
Think its discontinued?
Hand warm to hand hot from mine in a small HTPC case no problems with CPU temp and completely fanless.
When I first built mine I put a 150mm dia slow running (silent) fan in it as I didnt belive it wouldn't get hot but it wasent necesary in the end, my hard drive is solid state and I have an LED monitor attached via HDMI as well so very low power requirements.
Its a lovely little mother board
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8426/7537988934_ac0f8c13a1.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/7537988934/)
HTPC 4 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/7537988934/) by 337alant (http://www.flickr.com/people/69508926@N05/), on Flickr
Alan
Sounds a good setup mate.
Crackin wee board, I used mine running XBMC playing 1080p rips.
Better graphics than I expected too.
custom hifi cables don't make one that is for sure
That's actually not correct, just spoke to Sean at Custom HiFi Cables (http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/) and its not on the website yet, but there is a DC3 which has been designed with Music Servers in mind. It will handle over 4 amps and he can make supplies to request.
I don't know the price, but if anyone is interested just contact them. I am certainly interested in this and if I try one I will let folks know ;)
Its good linear supplies are becoming easier to get now, they certainly improve things.
As usual choice is a good thing.
337alant
22-05-2013, 15:59
Make one
150va 18v 0 18V transformer Torroid or R core
Generic rectifier smoothing board
use qspeed 6a ultra fast soft recovery diode's and 3 x 4700uf 35v [LIST]
smoothing caps with a 47ohm 3w resistor inbetween them or an inductor as this improves ripple rejection.
that should give you an unregulated 25V DC supply.
Linear Technology make some nice quiet regulators and the LT1084 will give you 5A data sheet http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/108345fg.pdf there is a simple improved ripple circuit on page 15 which works well and is very similar to a LM317 circuit so if you had a old reg board you could modify it with this reg to get 5A as long as you chose components capable of passing 5A
You could use one of these simple reg boards and adapt it for this circuit http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Positive-Negative-Voltage-Regulator-Module-Bare-PCB-More-Options-/151045214618?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Suppl ies_ET&var=&hash=item68d071aa16
This is a made up 5A reg with a LM338T reg
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Amps-Voltage-Regulator-Module-Output-1-5-32V-LM338T-/160943846413?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Suppl ies_ET&hash=item257900340d
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh290/337alant/YoungDacpowersupply_zps7fae5452.jpg (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/337alant/media/YoungDacpowersupply_zps7fae5452.jpg.html)
This is a young dac supply its only capable of 1.5A but is very nice.
Alan
Make one
Absolutely Alan, get a Paul Hynes reg and you will have what is almost unanimously accepted in the computer audio world as the best PSU for a music server ;)
Absolutely Alan, get a Paul Hynes reg and you will have what is almost unanimously accepted in the computer audio world as the best PSU for a music server ;)
Tim, that's a bold statement for a one eyed fat man....
top class regs though!
Tim, that's a bold statement for a one eyed fat man....
top class regs though!
That's why I used the word almost - no bolder than some of the statements made around here and I'm not trying to sell anything ;)
Anyway, I'm going to hang up my computer audio spurs for awhile now and listen to the fruits of my labour instead.
:cool:
337alant
23-05-2013, 02:41
Absolutely Alan, get a Paul Hynes reg and you will have what is almost unanimously accepted in the computer audio world as the best PSU for a music server ;)
Ah yes Tim thanks for the tip, I didnt realise Paul Haynes regs could do high current?.
I actually have a couple of his bare boards in my box not sure which ones though Ill dig them out and visit the Audio Circle site to see what they are for :) cheers.
Alan
No probs Alan, certainly something worth trying ;)
Just one more thing Gary (Gazjam) have you tinkered much with power supply beyond the server itself and different methods of file serving? For awhile I ran a 2.5" (mechanical) hard drive in the server itslef with a SOtM filter, at the moment I am mainly running off a Linux based NAS holding my FLAC library, but just this week I am looking into independent supply of a HDD attached to the player. It's not pretty (or very practical) but I have a 3.5" drive on the end of a 2' SATA cable sat on four sorbothane feet, powered by it's own independent linear PSU. Too early to tell yet as I tend to live with something for awhile and then go back before making a decision, but lets just say I am intrigued enough to continue exploring it :eyebrows:
I must stop tinkering :doh:
337alant
23-05-2013, 06:19
No probs Alan, certainly something worth trying ;)
Just one more thing Gary (Gazjam) have you tinkered much with power supply beyond the server itself and different methods of file serving? For awhile I ran a 2.5" (mechanical) hard drive in the server itslef with a SOtM filter, at the moment I am mainly running off a Linux based NAS holding my FLAC library, but just this week I am looking into independent supply of a HDD attached to the player. It's not pretty (or very practical) but I have a 3.5" drive on the end of a 2' SATA cable sat on four sorbothane feet, powered by it's own independent linear PSU. Too early to tell yet as I tend to live with something for awhile and then go back before making a decision, but lets just say I am intrigued enough to continue exploring it :eyebrows:
I must stop tinkering :doh:
Tim
I use a 4TB NAS drive for all my Flac music which is upstairs in my study but hardwired to my HTPC (Cat 6)
For playback I use JRiverM18 / Wasapi / playback from memory / Assync USB into Young Dac
I have tried the same files stored on the internal Solid State drive, a USB stick, and external 2.5" drive and the NAS and there deosent seem to be any difference when you use playback from memory as the track gets buffered instantly with the hard wired and it took a couple of seconds with WIFI.
I did find the sound inferior with WIFI though?.
I also tried a very basic linear supply on my HTPC and it didnt sound better that the external laptop brick. this supply was just somethig I had kicking around in the garage though and not purpose built for audio so I am going to try something better when I get some free time.
Alan
Paul Hynes
23-05-2013, 10:40
Hello Alan,
Make sure you verify which modules you have before applying a high current load. I have a range of PR3 modules for various power ratings and the lower rated modules may only be suitable for 1 to 2 amp loads depending on which rectifiers and output stage have been fitted. The PR3HD and PR3EHD modules are the ones used for the high current power supplies. If in doubt photo the board and I can tell you what application current range it was set up for.
Regards
Paul
337alant
23-05-2013, 11:17
Hello Alan,
Make sure you verify which modules you have before applying a high current load. I have a range of PR3 modules for various power ratings and the lower rated modules may only be suitable for 1 to 2 amp loads depending on which rectifiers and output stage have been fitted. The PR3HD and PR3EHD modules are the ones used for the high current power supplies. If in doubt photo the board and I can tell you what application current range it was set up for.
Regards
Paul
Hi Paul Ok thanks for the advice I bought the boards off a chap called Lilolee on PFM and he had them for a DAC power supply i belive so they are probably low power.
Any way I will check and let you know, if they are not suitable do you sell just the PCB for the high power types?.
Alan
No probs Alan, certainly something worth trying ;)
Just one more thing Gary (Gazjam) have you tinkered much with power supply beyond the server itself and different methods of file serving? For awhile I ran a 2.5" (mechanical) hard drive in the server itslef with a SOtM filter, at the moment I am mainly running off a Linux based NAS holding my FLAC library, but just this week I am looking into independent supply of a HDD attached to the player. It's not pretty (or very practical) but I have a 3.5" drive on the end of a 2' SATA cable sat on four sorbothane feet, powered by it's own independent linear PSU. Too early to tell yet as I tend to live with something for awhile and then go back before making a decision, but lets just say I am intrigued enough to continue exploring it :eyebrows:
I must stop tinkering :doh:
Hi Tim,
I have been looking at different ways to get the music out from the files.
Someone asked me for an Esata connection for their server recently and that got me thinking about "hardwired" connection vs the network feeding the files.
I'm a big believer in stripping windows back to a bare minimum and switching off as much as I can, so programs like Fidelizer are very interesting to me.
The new version has an "extra" mode which switches off EVERYTHING including network services.
My files are fed from my file server/work machine in another room via ethernet so I couldn't use that.
But it SHOULD be better cos it switches more stuff off?
Also, in Jriver its best not to switch on memory play if serving files from a network as they are read into memory ANYWAY.
Running from an external USB drive...I could get benefit from Jriver memory play and running Fidelizer at its maximum setting.
Guess what..there was an improvement in sound. Cool.
Any more room for improvement?
USB external drive...theres a conversion process there converting from USB, so what about an ESata setup?
Like yourself Tim I set this up and I found it to be better again compared to USB.
Not QUITE as good as running off a 6GB/s SSD drive, but not a million miles off tbh. Certainly better than running off a network.
With Fidelizer on teh "Audiophile" setting though there was no difference between network feed and external drive, so I reckon its switching off teh Networking features that have made the difference here.
For myself, in my own server, I just ran an extra long Sata cable and made up a long molex connector and stuck the drive behind my rack where it cant be heard or seen.
Works great, only snag is thatI cant browse the web etc when Networking is switched off...
But working on a setup for that too, Jplay (yeah yeah I know :)) allows for a 2 PC setup...which I currently use anyway.
Using the IPad, just Jremote into the PC in the other room (connected by Sata) and have music piped through into listening room.
No networking but I can VNC into server using Ipad if I need to.
Linear PSU for an external hard drive...sounds interesting!
May be advantages to isolating the power feed to hard drive and keeping it seperate from the motherboard?
Even in a linear regulated setup.
Interesting, keep on tinkering!
realysm42
23-05-2013, 12:31
Guys, do you think that posh sotm USB output board (sotm tx-usbexp) does the same job as an ifi USB power scrubber?
Ie removes mains noise from the pc...
Guys, do you think that posh sotm USB output board (sotm tx-usbexp) does the same job as an ifi USB power scrubber?
Ie removes mains noise from the pc...
As far as I know yes Martin, but I havn't tried either yet. The SOtM one is battery powered from memory but isn't the iFi mains powered? Nothing to stop you powering an iFi from battery though?
Its not something I have experience of, but will be trying in the future once I am totally happy with the power requirements of my server, then I will move on to the USB power. I tend to take my time over these things with extended listening/testing before moving on. Like Gaz though I have personally found that serving files via a network is not the best option. I persevered with it for awhile as it seemed a favoured method on Computeraudiophile, but for me local files are better, but not via an attached mechanical USB drive, hence my latest trial - even a basic eSATA drive attached to the MB but powered independently is an improvement over a USB one. Ultimately it will all be local SSD's for my FLAC library, but they are still too expensive.
Hi Tim,
I have been looking at different ways to get the music out from the files.
Someone asked me for an Esata connection for their server recently and that got me thinking about "hardwired" connection vs the network feeding the files.
I'm a big believer in stripping windows back to a bare minimum and switching off as much as I can, so programs like Fidelizer are very interesting to me.
The new version has an "extra" mode which switches off EVERYTHING including network services.
Me too Gary and I am convinced hard wiring the FLAC library to the server as opposed to a network is the way to go, its just the power that needs to be right. At this rate I am going to end up with 3 differing power supplies, one for USB, one for the hard drive and one for the server :doh: Not sure if my memory is deceiving me, but isn't this something John (Welder) discovered?
Finally, as I'm not sure if I ever have yet, but congrats on the HiFi Choice review for your server. It seems your findings and route pretty much mirrors mine, which is great as it confirms what I have discovered - always good to know, unless we are both mad of course ;)
Hey, thanks for that Tim. :)
I think we have been treading similar paths with this computer audio malarkey...or suffering from the same crazy!
Clean power plays a BIG part imo, something you just don't have with an off the shelf PC.
Also software config can make a huge dent...once you get knee deep in the registry it kinda loses its fun though!
Have you tried JPlay?
Jriver guys write it off...up till the latest version I wasn't convinced either.
Downloaded the trial...bought it 3 hours later.
V5.1 is worth a look, see what you think?
Have you tried JPlay?
Jriver guys write it off...up till the latest version I wasn't convinced either.
Downloaded the trial...bought it 3 hours later.
V5.1 is worth a look, see what you think?
I have tried two differing versions, but could revisit it. The early version was no better than my first server, but that was 2 years ago so it may be time to check it out again.
Knee deep in the registry eh?, now that's a fun place to hang out :lol:
realysm42
23-05-2013, 17:57
The ifi is mains powered, via a 'properly implemented' smps wall wart (apparently).
I wish it had a schuko plug equivalent, so I could run it through my conditioner... Anyone got suggestion on how I do this please?
If your pc has decent mains in, what's the advantage of powering each element (USB, mobo etc), does it further refine the sound?
Would this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/EVERYWHERE-WORLDWIDE-Australia-Australian-Brazilian/dp/B0055KL6R6/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1369332104&sr=8-7&keywords=plug+adapter+worldwide) work for you Martin? ;)
realysm42
23-05-2013, 18:18
:lol: that didn't event occur to me, cheers dude!
:lol: that didn't event occur to me, cheers dude!
You are very welcome my friend :cool:
If your pc has decent mains in, what's the advantage of powering each element (USB, mobo etc), does it further refine the sound?
Well the simple answer in my experience is yes Martin. As both Gary and I have learned and John (Welder) before us, clean power is essential in computer audio, maybe more so than analogue audio. A PC is inherently a very noisy environment electrically and anything you can do to both reduce that noise and stabilise any fluctuation in power I have found helps. I personally started this game on a netbook, then a laptop before moving on to a tower design and now a small dedicated server. I found laptops to be the worst things, with all the stuff going on in there, such as displays, track-pads all kinds of device drivers etc, causing fluctuations in power which turned into noise. I cannot give you a technical answer, somebody like Vincent Kars probably could. However, I have found that by isolating the key elements, the mobo, USB output and now a spinning hard drive from each other has an influence. A hard drive for instance when used for file playback will spin up and slowdown as it reads/writes to disc, which causes a fluctuation of power draw. The spinning mechanical disc is also a factor which is why getting it away from the mobo as Gary touched on earlier helps - best case here is an SSD. You might think OK, I won't use a mechanical HDD I will stream from the network, but this also affects the SQ in my experience and I now favour an attached hard drive. Powering it independently is under trial at the moment, but so far I like it. It all looks a bit Heath Robinson at the moment, but who cares - it sounds good :lol:
If you can cleanly power each major element in the chain and avoid any fluctuation or ripple in that clean power, then the naturally noisy environment of a PC is improved. Less is more and if you have nothing whatsoever going on to either interrupt the CPU processing of your digital audio file or cause a power fluctuation, then in my experience the end product is improved.
I'm at the limit here of my 'technical' know-how and I may not be explaining it well, but I tend to try things out and see what happens before committing to anything, but so far every step I have taken to improve the power and isolate any possible interference between key components has proved to be a step forward in sound quality. I also never believe anything anyone tells me until I try it myself ;)
Maybe somebody with more electrical experience can put it better, as I'm a numpty when it comes to this area. I just do it and see what happens, which isn't elegant but I often get there in the end!
Having said all of the above, there are just so many different ways of doing this, that no one way is the right way and each installation will be honed around its strengths and there is still (like anything) a difference of opinion. I have no experience of the JPlay 2 PC approach, but I have yet to hear somebody who does it, report back that they don't like it - John seems to be a fan. Certainly using two laptops could isolate the issues I experienced with a single laptop? BUT . . . clean, stable power is IMO an essential element no matter what method you employ.
One final thing, which I forgot to mention and this is more for the information of anyone thinking of going down this route. Don't assume that all computer components sound the same? The motherboard in my (and others) experience is an important factor. The quality of components used on the board together with the quality control during its manufacture, is a factor - think about it ... you wouldn't suffer cheap or nasty caps in your other equipment and a dry joint or poorly put together PCB, or a badly designed crossover can all effect the sound quality of your audio gear - a music server/player is no different. I have used 6 different boards and I would now never use anything other than an Intel board in an audio environment. In a normal PC not used for audio they are not as important, but in a server they are. I also wouldn't use an AMD processor in a music server, even though I am a fan of them and have one in my desktop tower PC - but that's a personal choice and I like to keep the major components matched. Intel board, Intel CPU and Intel SSD. For RAM I like Crucial or Corsair and its never budget RAM, not even in an internet use only PC would I use budget RAM. Again this is a personal thing and YMMV.
If I had to and had no option or was building something by request for somebody else (not that I do this anymore) I might use an Asus or Gigabyte board, but that would be it. I have never tried one for a server so have no personal experience, but Asrock boards have a reputation for being noisy. They are a budget board and in a home PC are great and I have happily used them in the past, but read through reviews on Newegg and Computeraudiophile and they are often identified as the weak link in an audio player. Don't take my word for it as I have never tested it personally, but its something to be mindful of - like anything, do your research and then fully test it is my advice. What I do is before selecting any computer component for use in a music server/player I Google, Google, Google. Read everything you can find about it on retail sites or forums. If its an Intel product IME that is not so important, but I still do it.
I would never skimp on the quality of the board, the RAM, the SSD or the CPU in a music server and this does appear to be something people often don't even consider when planning a new build.
The only other bit of advice would be don't rush this if you want to build a music server, don't be afraid to try lots of different things and test things for awhile before making a decision and go back to what you had before as well. You will often try something out, be that a software tweak or a change of hardware and notice a difference . . . but is that difference actually better, or just 'different'. Don't forget to have fun and don't forget to stop every now and then and just enjoy the music.
That's me now for awhile, I'm off to listen to some music and see if powering a hard drive independently really is worth it ;)
Theres certainly an effect on the 5v rails as a mechanical HDD read and write heads seek across the disk but they don't spin up or down to vary speed they rotate at a constant RPM.
This is a scope shot I took of the 5v USB rail on a laptop during music playback, you can see how noisy the rail is and also the sudden drop as the HDD performed a seek. Any other background task like a swap file page in etc caused the same result.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/USB_noise_disk.jpg
The approach I've taken is not to change the host system but to isolate it from the DAC by powering the USB devices independently so they are immune to power fluctuations in the host and to isolate the signal lines. Seems to work well.
realysm42
24-05-2013, 07:37
Interesting points gents; thanks for taking the time to write that.
The stance I took was go for "low" power parts as in, quality brands that don't rum @1,000,000mhz, so kinda discreet.
If (when) I do a rebuild, I'll pick the top quality bits based on your comments and look at properly isolated power that time, a v.2.0 if you will :eyebrows:
Nice one Neal :)
WD Green Powers can spin down between seeks, especially if you have loaded a lot into RAM for playback, but I try to negate that by setting them to spin all the time, so I would agree once they are up and running and spinning, it is constant (normally). However, WD do not publish speeds for their greens as a constant RPM as they do vary the spin speed to save energy - this may have changed, but was certainly the case when I bought mine and I use them the most. Other drives will function differently so it can depend on the HDD.
I can't wait for an affordable large capacity SSD so my entire FLAC library will be on SSD and inside the case with the motherboard and boot SSD. I will then just power the mobo and drives and isolate from the USB like you suggest - seems to be a favoured option by a lot and certainly makes sense - but that's a future trial for me.
EDIT:
Keeping it real though Martin, I'm splitting hairs now and I like to tinker, if you provide clean power to your mobo and isolate the USB with clean power as well, that's in reality going to be all you need and the results should please you. I'm just a meddling amateur geek ;)
realysm42
24-05-2013, 08:16
Its interesting to me!
Its this kind of conversation that inspires me to try new things and learn; there does come a come point where one draws the line though :eyebrows:
Ah yes, forgot about the WD green drives, however, they don't 'spin down' during seeks, that just wouldn't work! They are said to optimize spin speed when idle slowing down from 7200rpm when performance is needed to 5400 rpm when its not. However, as WD are not very forthcoming and actually quite evasive when questioned as to what actually goes on with spin speed, serious doubt has been cast on their claims and many suspect the drive only varies from 5400 to 5900 rpm.
realysm42
24-05-2013, 08:41
I used to have a WD raptor, it died on me...
many suspect the drive only varies from 5400 to 5900 rpm.
I reckon you are right there Neal ;)
You aren't a member of the computer over-clockers forum are you, I think I remember an NRG from there. I don't post anymore but remember some great posts from him and a lot were audio based?
StanleyB
24-05-2013, 09:08
I use SSD and don't have any RPM problems:D.
But I am NEVER buying a OCZ Vertex SSD again. I have had two go faulty on me in less than one year. One went down within a week. To get a replacement I am supposed to send them to The Netherlands first even though I bought them in the UK. A quick check on the net confirmed problems with the OCZ drives.
realysm42
24-05-2013, 09:36
Corsair 40gb and Samsung 250gb ssds right here.
I look forward to cheap, huge ssds too as I'll need another one shortly.
Samsung 840 Pro is my SSD of choice, bit more expensive but bullet proof.
Overkill for just a standard pc drive, but for a server where EVERYTHING makes a difference its worth it imo.
Yup, everything makes a difference.
Tim's going down the right road...don't just read about it and assume it'll work, try it for yourself.
Getting PC based audio RIGHT is really a new field for audio, so new discoveries are coming all the time.
That said, be wary of people who advise you to use green pens for painting the side of your SSD's.... :D
I use SSD and don't have any RPM problems:D.
But I am NEVER buying a OCZ Vertex SSD again. I have had two go faulty on me in less than one year. One went down within a week. To get a replacement I am supposed to send them to The Netherlands first even though I bought them in the UK. A quick check on the net confirmed problems with the OCZ drives.
Sale of Goods act Stan say's your contract is with the Retailer, not the Manufacturer.
Would that not apply?
StanleyB
24-05-2013, 09:53
That's Dabs online for you. I keep reminding myself to give them hassle about it.
Must have been another NRG Tim...
Re: the WD Green drives, seems they are in fact fixed 5400 RPM drives. ;)
Ah, never mind, might check what his name was but I'm sure it was NRG?
Cool re the drives, I am just about to buy some new ones and might do a Pepsi challenge between the old and the new, or I might buy the new RED drives which are claimed to be lower power and quieter than the Greens - I don't suppose you have tried the RED's have you?
Anyway, I must stop procrastinating - I'm doing a new build over the bank holiday weekend, so I shall get on with that and listen to some music . . . its all good :)
realysm42
24-05-2013, 10:41
I just popped that UK to euro plug converter into the chain (but not before giving it a quick deoxit clean, I was shocked at ho filthy it was!!!) So that means the ifi is running through my conditioner and its made a subtle but nice upgrade to the sound.
Stands to reason, but puts a smile on ones face :)
I just popped that UK to euro plug converter into the chain (but not before giving it a quick deoxit clean, I was shocked at ho filthy it was!!!) So that means the ifi is running through my conditioner and its made a subtle but nice upgrade to the sound.
Stands to reason, but puts a smile on ones face :)
That's good to know Martin, another on my list of things to try. :)
Ah, never mind, might check what his name was but I'm sure it was NRG?
Cool re the drives, I am just about to buy some new ones and might do a Pepsi challenge between the old and the new, or I might buy the new RED drives which are claimed to be lower power and quieter than the Greens - I don't suppose you have tried the RED's have you?
Anyway, I must stop procrastinating - I'm doing a new build over the bank holiday weekend, so I shall get on with that and listen to some music . . . its all good :)
I needed a new data drive and choose a WD RED over a Green drive as their firmware causes problems for Linux users with over aggressive head parking. It's now the 2nd HDD in my PC. I can at least testify to it being very quiet. The warranty is 3yrs vesrus 2yrs, which is of course factored into the price.
Of the Greens, I would personally would pick a WD20EARX over a WD20EZRX, for example. How HDD makes can get away with selling HDDs with just one year warranties I don't know.
Strickly for the geeks is examining the WD10EFRX:
http://koitsu.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/examining-the-wd10efrx/
WD30EZRX and aggressive head parking:
http://koitsu.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/wd30ezrx-and-aggressive-head-parking/
realysm42
24-05-2013, 15:55
What is this head parking you speak of?
Is it a HDD thing?
Speaking of parking..another worthwhile tweak.
http://bitsum.com/about_cpu_core_parking.php
realysm42
24-05-2013, 16:30
Ah Gaz, what's the app that allows me to slave a core exclusively to j river dude?
What is this head parking you speak of?
Is it a HDD thing?
Yes it is a HDD thing. Have a look at that second ref. Aggressive head parking on WD green drives can increase the drive's Load cycle count (LCC) and prematurely age the drive. Here's a typical exchange on the WD forums:
http://community.wdc.com/t5/Desktop-Portable-Drives/Green-Caviar-High-Load-Cycle-Cout-after-short-operation-time/td-p/15731/page/6
Some argue it's a problem that has been exaggerated, but it is real to Linux users. There are workarounds, but with the new WD red drive the firmware seems better suited to NAS and data drive usage. The down is side that the Red drive's random read/writes speeds are not spectacular. You probably wouldn't choose one for an OS drive.
Speaking of parking..another worthwhile tweak.
http://bitsum.com/about_cpu_core_parking.php
That's a new one to me, but then I use Windows infrequently. It will be interesting to see how it works in practice and if a typical power meter can detect any changes when cpu core parking is used. I'll have to check what C-states my motherboard/BIOS/CPU combo supports.
Ah Gaz, what's the app that allows me to slave a core exclusively to j river dude?
Not an App Martin, but changing CPU affinity settings in Task manager.
Warning - its a faff. :)
*edit* mibbay there is an app, don't know it though.
Very good read about the Red drive there Chris, thanks for that. The I/O is certainly more than adequate for my uses and the SMART log temperature comparison to the black is interesting too, but the spin speeds differ don't they (5400 v 7200) so that's expected, or have I got the black speed wrong without checking?
I just read another article about power consumption and temperature of the Red, which confirms the first one I read on Silent PC Review awhile back, lower power (except idle) than the greens and lower temperatures. That's it for me, its the Red for my next purchases, especially as they have done away with intellipark. I tend to recycle my drives rather than wait for them to die and its time to replace them. Funnily enough, I just had my first home HDD failure ever about a month ago, which was a 1.5TB WD Green (EARS). Not bad going I suppose when you consider I have been building computers at home since Windows 3.1!
Anyway, I keep saying I am going to get on with other stuff and have a short break here, but you guys keep posting stuff and bringing me back :doh:
realysm42
24-05-2013, 17:01
Not an App Martin, but changing CPU affinity settings in Task manager.
Warning - its a faff. :)
*edit* mibbay there is an app, don't know it though.
There's a programme to permanently allocate cores to jobs, indont know what its called though. When you say faff you mean not worth doing?
Cheers Krisbee, just checking, hopefully I'll never use another HDD again :eek:
Mark Grant
24-05-2013, 17:05
I use SSD and don't have any RPM problems:D.
But I am NEVER buying a OCZ Vertex SSD again. I have had two go faulty on me in less than one year. One went down within a week. To get a replacement I am supposed to send them to The Netherlands first even though I bought them in the UK. A quick check on the net confirmed problems with the OCZ drives.
Annoying but the one time I had to return something faulty to Netherlands the replacement arrived back within the week.
I use the Samsungs that Gary mentions or Intel SSD with 5 year warranty on anything important now.
Mark Grant
24-05-2013, 17:08
I can't wait for an affordable large capacity SSD so my entire FLAC library will be on SSD and inside the case with the motherboard and boot SSD.
By the time you stop tinkering and decide on something final :D these bad boys might be affordable.
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/960gb-crucial-m500-25-6gb-s-internal-ssd-500nb-s-read-400mb-s-write
There's a programme to permanently allocate cores to jobs, indont know what its called though. When you say faff you mean not worth doing?
Cheers Krisbee, just checking, hopefully I'll never use another HDD again :eek:
Is the program your thinking of called Process Lasso?
http://bitsum.com/processlasso/
Think it will do what your looking for, but I think for setting cores for individual programs, or "Application Profiles" as they call it, you need the paid for version.
To be honest I'm not sure theres a lot of milage in this approach Martin.
Windows will do a great job on the fly allocating cores on the fly when needed.
I'm thinking your wanting to give Jriver priority over other software for usage of CPU cores?
Using affinity the manual way.
You open up task manager, find the process, click on set affinity, and then set all the cores you want working on it. Set every other program to 1 core and Jriver to use all cores.
You'd need to do that every time you reboot the computer.
That's what I mean by a faff! :)
You could always just send your PC to sleep rather than shutting it off, that way the CPU core settings will be retained?
Personally, with modern fast computers there's not a lot of mileage in this approach imo.
Better to disable all power saving features in BIOS and set Windows Power Scheme to Maximum Performance.
By the time you stop tinkering and decide on something final :D these bad boys might be affordable.
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/960gb-crucial-m500-25-6gb-s-internal-ssd-500nb-s-read-400mb-s-write
You bugger Mark, that is not what I need to be reading right now, that would hold my entire FLAC library on it which is 712GB right now :scratch:
AoS just costs me too much money :lol:
Better to disable all power saving features in BIOS and set Windows Power Scheme to Maximum Performance.
That's what I do.
Ali Tait
24-05-2013, 17:25
Trouble is I'd need two of them.. and an expensive prospect if one went tits up!
Mark Grant
24-05-2013, 17:33
It is a lot of of money but a bargain compared to the OCZ 1TB at £2000.00
http://www.amazon.co.uk/OCZ-Octane-Solid-State-Drive/dp/B006L7JM64 :eek::eek:
Think I will stick with NAS drive for a little longer until big SSD are sensible money.
Ali Tait
24-05-2013, 17:53
Me too.
The approach I've taken is not to change the host system but to isolate it from the DAC by powering the USB devices independently so they are immune to power fluctuations in the host and to isolate the signal lines. Seems to work well.
What do you use for this Neal?
realysm42
26-05-2013, 10:52
:popcorn:
losenotaminute
26-05-2013, 11:17
For a truly silent build I would recommend Quiet PC's IcePipe range. They are completely fanless and use passive cooling only - the power supplies and GFX cards are fanless as well as the CPU cooling.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8362/8409349626_62670e2c83_z.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8465/8409347794_590bd68979_z.jpg
Holy smokes, is that a music server or a space station control centre ;)
(just joking)
losenotaminute
26-05-2013, 11:52
Holy smokes, is that a music server or a space station control centre ;)
(just joking)
It's not pretty, I'll grant you that.
Quiet PC also do multimedia servers, which are more subtle:
http://www.quietpc.com/systems#system-media
Yup, good company Quiet PC, bought quite a few component parts from them over the years, always very good service - not always the cheapest, but you get what you pay for service wise.
I needed a new data drive and choose a WD RED over a Green drive as their firmware causes problems for Linux users with over aggressive head parking. It's now the 2nd HDD in my PC. I can at least testify to it being very quiet. The warranty is 3yrs vesrus 2yrs, which is of course factored into the price.
I bought myself a Western Digital RED drive Chris and I have been playing around with some things just for the hell of it (going through one of my tinkering phases). The results I experienced by adding it to my system were a surprise and I'm not going to wax lyrical with poetic language about why, I'll just keep it simple. I used to read posts on CA about people preferring different hard drives and I thought what a load of tosh, I now have to eat some humble pie :o (I think?)
I was a fan of WD Greens and I used one with a SOtM filter which seemed to improve it SQ wise. When the RED arrived I just swapped the whole thing over and was pleased by the results, in fact they seemed the same at first, but after a few days I started to think this album sounds different :scratch: So this is what I did and I often go backwards when testing. I tried a Green on its own and then with the SOtM, I preferred it with the filter. I then tried the RED without the SOtM and preferred this to the Green with or without the filter. I then tried the RED with the filter and didn't like it, but it was still better than the Green, with or without filter . . . work that one out? The only thing I can think of is because of the Greens intellipark and the way it handles power saving, its power draw is not constant and has fluctuations, which the SOtM filter smooths out. The RED on the other hand does not have intellipark and on the whole runs more efficiently and consistently. It uses less power, around 1W and runs about 2 degrees cooler, so the SOtM seems redundant, in fact with the SOtM to me the sound is not as enjoyable.
Now with all these conclusions and its topical at the moment for me, what's different? The data on the disc is the same and they probably spin at the same speed when running, but the two drives appear to handle power differently, so its logical to conclude that the power handling is what gives it a + or - effect. I often scratch my head with computer audio, but in the end just go with what I prefer. At the end of the day it could be my ears/brain deceiving me, who knows, so take what I say with a pinch of salt and if you are interested any further, try it yourself?
Conclusion:
In my system the RED seems better and does not need the SOtM filter, in fact using it I felt was a step backwards. Bloody confusing is all I can say, but its fun trying stuff out ;)
Its dawning on me that power really is the key in file based audio, maybe more so than the O/S, the differences are subtle when you reach this level, but still worth the effort. Oh, the RED drive is quieter too, in fact its very hard to hear anything when its powered up, even read/writes, unless you are close to it.
Tim,
You seemed to have found your ideal HD. So you won't be interested in one of these: http://www.techpowerup.com/184582/western-digital-announces-wd-se-line-of-hard-drives.html
I have the perfect one for now Chris, but those look great for my NAS which I will bear in mind at the next drive recycle, so thanks, as they were not on my radar. My RED drive is now in a silenced box away from the server, its still attached via SATA to the motherboard, but powered independently.
I will go to an all SSD library when they become affordable, but I'm sorted now with my system. I still have some tweaks and bits to buy/configure, which are mostly cosmetic, but I have a final (Windows/JRiver) configuration settled now, so when I get the bug to tinker again, it will be with a Linux player. No rush though, I just want to enjoy it now after nearly 2 years of building and testing stuff out - I need to spend less time looking at a computer screen and more time flicking through album art on my tablet :)
I'm setting up a music oriented blog at the moment and over the next few weeks/months I will (probably) publish my system - not fully decided about that yet, but I have committed it all to text. Its aimed at a novice who might want to have a go themselves, together with some thoughts on power and my big bug bear at the moment, fecking rip off USB cables - but I won't share that here, as its far too controversial. I'm likely to get tarred and feathered by some, but on a blog I can say what I like and control what other's may have to say too ;)
Good man Tim, very generous of you to help others out.
Thats what its all about.
Have do disagree with there not being the market.... Just needs to be done the right way.
Something different from the norm.
That's my take anyway.
Tim,
Looking forward to reading whatever you publish on a blog. I think you might have hit the spot about some kind of case and regulated PSU combo. I've built my own PCs and installed and configure both Windows and Linux OS etc. But I don't have the skills (or motivation) to design and build any kind of useful (linear?) PSU for a Music server.
realysm42
04-06-2013, 20:41
On topic mines due for delivery very shortly. Not skimped on the mains lead either, might as well do it properly.
I intend this to last me a long time!
It'll be really interesting to see what impact it'll have on the audio quality.
It'll be really interesting to see what impact it'll have on the audio quality.
I would be really surprised if you didn't notice a difference Martin ;)
You bugger Mark, that is not what I need to be reading right now, that would hold my entire FLAC library on it which is 712GB right now :scratch:
AoS just costs me too much money :lol:
I'll just jump in here with another link to SSD's, hope it is useful.. Prices are coming down ! :eek:
http://www.crucial.com/store/ssd.aspx (240Gb)
http://www.crucial.com/store/listmodule/SSD/~983040~~M500~/list.html (960Gb)
realysm42
05-06-2013, 10:34
This is what I plonked into my PC as the main storage device:
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=HD-162-SA&groupid=701&catid=2104&subcat=2394
250gb for about £130 ain't bad at all; for storage I don't care about an ssd's speed, just that it's silent and is much faster than a hdd anyway.
250gb for about £130 ain't bad at all; for storage I don't care about an ssd's speed, just that it's silent and is much faster than a hdd anyway.
There are many other benefits to SSD as well Martin, not just the silence. The way they handle power and the absence of spinning platters, which can produce all manner of electro magnetic interference - then you have the 12v drive motor if you have 3.5", the end result in simple terms, is increased electrical noise and ripple. So adding an SSD is very beneficial to a music server ;)
Your machine with a linear PSU is going to sound pretty darned good fella :)
Have you guys seen this: http://www.ap-linux.com/
I have Clive, its a nice site. My current project is now a Linux player as I think I have gone as far as I can with a Windows machine and I've got the bit between my teeth now.
Thanks for posting though, it might spur others on, which can only be a good thing ;)
I can't quite summon up the energy to dive into linux, if I did I would probably start with ap linux as much of it is done already. Too much effort ATM...
realysm42
05-06-2013, 13:21
That's how I feel with it right now, I want somrthing easy and quick that does the job right for me.
Windows 8 is prefect for that role.
Cheers Tim, I'll report back once it's in place! Your blog could be an interesting read.
realysm42
06-06-2013, 07:40
How do you guys interact with your PC for audio? I use jriver with a nexus via gizmo; works a treat and something I do now is leave the monitor turned off, seemed odd at first but its just an old habit having it left on. Saves power :)
How do you guys interact with your PC for audio? I use jriver with a nexus via gizmo; works a treat and something I do now is leave the monitor turned off, seemed odd at first but its just an old habit having it left on. Saves power :)
I have a Samsung Galaxy Tab2 Martin with Gizmo for JRiver.
Have you tried Fidelizer yet? If you are not that comfortable with cutting back your Windows install and poking around in the registry, then this will do a lot of it for you with minimum fuss.
http://www.windowsxlive.net/fidelizer/
My server is headless, I have nothing connected to it all all, its all run remotely. No monitor, mouse, keyboard or optical drive - its bare bones ;)
realysm42
06-06-2013, 08:54
I'll check it out tonight dude!
Also, do you have a link to where one might be directed poke about in the registry please?
If I had system restore on (its not right now) does that cover the registry too?
Have you guys seen this: http://www.ap-linux.com/
Yes, I saw that when if first appeared. What do I think of it? Not much .... It seems to be pushing ideas that are wrong headed to me. It's not a proper Linux distro. Someone has just made a respin of Mint, which is not that hard to do. At least in v1 you could see the footprint they left in certain files on the iso. I think you'd be better off starting with something like Lubuntu and use your own ears as you apply a few tweaks.
There was a thread on CA about it and the author didn't come across well.
I can understand why folk don't have the motivation to try Linux when they are perfectly happy with what Win7/8 plus audio apps can do for them. Linux users are likely to find it strange that people will pay for a full blown OS which they then have to spend ages turning off the bits they don't wont. They probably will be very sceptical about the claims made of software like Jplay etc. I am sure they would think that for a headless server used for audio playback, Linux is a good choice. After all, unlike Windows7/8, Linux OS is both a desktop and server in one. Depeding what you pick as your starting point, you can switch from a graphical desktop to text-only mode with a single command. There's plenty of options.
Someone's ideas about PSUs in audio servers. I've no idea if they are valid, but they could be of interest.
http://ppastudio.blogspot.co.uk/
realysm42
06-06-2013, 12:56
Some interesting remarks on there.
Anyone tried uprated sata cables for audio?
I can't seem to find any for sale.
realysm42
06-06-2013, 13:23
I've just emailed the author to see if he can rustle something up a la Sata cable for me.
Does anyone kbnow where I can get uprated power leads for the internals of the PC?
Yes, I saw that when if first appeared. What do I think of it? Not much .... It seems to be pushing ideas that are wrong headed to me. It's not a proper Linux distro. Someone has just made a respin of Mint, which is not that hard to do. At least in v1 you could see the footprint they left in certain files on the iso. I think you'd be better off starting with something like Lubuntu and use your own ears as you apply a few tweaks.
There was a thread on CA about it and the author didn't come across well.
It sounds VERY good.
It sounds VERY good.
Compared too what? And using what specific configuration of apps etc? How about voyageMPD or puppy MPD, or a combo of Logitech Media Server and squeezelite running on say Lubuntu (or debian, crunchbang, siduction etc.) with a low-latency kernel. Personally, I don't have the motivation or health these days for much more than a passing interest in all this. Occasionaly, as in the case of ap-linux, I get a bit steamed up. My posts here are a bit like me, just ticking over.
By the way, I'm looking forward to see how your commercial venture pans out.
If you're interested in the two sides of the argument re: does all this low-latency in memory stuff etc. matter in Linux this long long thread at diyAudio says it all.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/93315-linux-audio-way-go.html
Its phofman's contributions a veer towards.
Also, do you have a link to where one might be directed poke about in the registry please?
If I had system restore on (its not right now) does that cover the registry too?
On the first point no, as its something I have learnt over the years and its part of my job, not something I have picked up on the net. This however is a good site http://www.blackviper.com/
Second one, in theory yes, but I personally wouldn't trust this method, I create images of my drives using Acronis. You can also backup the registry from inside Regedit - navigate to > File > Export. I also use two drives for my testing which have been cloned. I trial everything on the clone then implement changes on the primary, when I'm satisfied they are an improvement. I'm never without a fully functional player using this method, as I do still like to listen to music now and then :lol:
Word of warning, altering the registry without some form of fully functional (tested) backup can require you to start again from scratch. Not so bad with Windows 8, but its still going to take time which could be spent doing other things, like enjoying your music server ;)
realysm42
06-06-2013, 19:05
Yeah that's the feeling I'm starting to get, I might just draw the line here :lol:
I love how it sounds right now, to me its not 'broken'.
Cheers Tim.
realysm42
07-06-2013, 10:59
Do you guys use vibration control for your hdd/sdd in your systems and if so, got a link please?
realysm42
08-06-2013, 21:05
PS, all this talk of desperate power for USB and CPU, how does one go about achieving that, is it complicated?
all this talk of desperate power for USB and CPU
Huh?
realysm42
08-06-2013, 21:24
Huh?
:lol:
Separate power is what I meant.
Well if you have the iFi USB power thingy you are doing a lot of it already Martin.
Re your HDD isolation Q, I don't have any HDD in my server, but have used a long SATA cable to a HDD kept away from the motherboard in one of these;
http://www.overclock3d.net/gfx/articles/2008/07/11140316923s.jpg
Scythe Himuro
The hard drive was powered independently (3.5" drives need 12v & 5v) - but if you have SSD you are pretty much sorted too. However, some folks claim that keeping the SSD out of the case and powering it separately (easy to do, single 5V rail) is beneficial, but I have not tested that myself. I read a thread recently where the guy had a big lug of a SLA battery hooked up to an inverter, then a normal ATX power supply and an SSD separate, but the motherboard was on a board, no case and a huge passive heat-sink. All the wires were suspended above ground too - just been looking for it, but cannot find it. Funny picture and you do have to wonder?
realysm42
08-06-2013, 21:47
Yeah, I'm sure having things as separates would help the sound (a la our stereos) but there comes that line again.
Your setup sounds half practical whilst his sounds like suffering for sound; I don't want to do that.
Cheers for the product link dude.
Found it;
http://imageshack.us/a/img534/1096/003vfh.jpg
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/battery-powered-hot-rod-server-14983/
Nuts!
I have tried all manner of things Martin, been messing with it for over 2 years now. Basically though these worked best for me;
Keep it simple, disable everything you can in the OS - ala Fidelizer - less is more
Use a dedicated server and avoid laptops
Use quality components in the server
Use a SSD for the O/S
Keep spinning hard drives away from the motherboard
Don't use an attached USB hard drive
Isolate the network if you can, not always practical
Keep your USB cables short and plug them into the motherboard header if possible
Use quality USB cables, not necessarily expensive ones.
If using USB > DAC, isolate the PC 5V output and provide clean, regulated power to the DAC
Most of all, good clean power to the server is very important
Don't attach anything to the server you don't have to, run it headless if you can and control it remotely.
But my advice now would be - avoid Windows :lol:
Disclaimer - these work for me in my system, but may not necessarily apply to others.
realysm42
09-06-2013, 09:18
Cheers Tim, some interesting bits there, I'm glad to see I'm some of that already.
So you use Linux? What do you use to play the audio files? I guess the reason is for sq?
Cheers Tim, some interesting bits there, I'm glad to see I'm some of that already.
So you use Linux? What do you use to play the audio files? I guess the reason is for sq?
From how you have described your system Martin, it should be producing good results already - its fine tuning and tweaking now, just read up about what folks are doing and try them yourself - creative thinking can often surprise you too. Sometimes you have to compromise and consider usability against performance, I like convenience as well as good sound quality, but pure performance means you have to sacrifice some of that convenience - its all about finding the right balance for your needs and expectations.
Linux is a new project as I have exhausted my options with Windows, very early days at the moment but it certainly fits in with my ethos, which is low power and simplicity. I used to use Linux a few years back both at home and at work, but I've become lazy, so its good to revisit the command line again. Not for everyone I know, I find it both fun and exasperating, but great when it works. The thing about Linux is that when you have it how you want it, it just works and its very stable, a good Linux system should never crash unless you have a hardware failure. I like learning new stuff too and being able to marry Linux with audio has rejuvenated my interest, before it was just something I needed for work, so it was rather dull and I did it under protest!
Welcome back to Linuxland. I did entertain thoughts of the usefulness, or otherwise, of OS specific sub-fora here. Or some kind of metathread that points to all relevant existing threads.
Welcome back to Linuxland. I did entertain thoughts of the usefulness, or otherwise, of OS specific sub-fora here. Or some kind of metathread that points to all relevant existing threads.
There is quite a lot here that was posted by John (Welder) before he moved to Spain - maybe I should try and seek them out and pull them together somehow :scratch:
realysm42
11-06-2013, 07:45
:popcorn:
Wouldn't give up on Windows yet guys...
Been working with a stripped (barely functional!) homebrew version of windows 8 and it is sounding better than any of the Linux distro's I've been playing with.
Couple of things I'd add to Tim's list is to have your music stored not in Flac format but in AIFF (Apple Uncompressed), the improvement is especially noticable with hires files. This is based purely on sanity checked listening tests. :mental:
My take on this is that the way AIFF is stored on the disk (differently than WAV) reduces the number crunching needed for the server to feed music out to your Dac, which in my experience is one of the "holy grail's" of getting the most out of it.
Also, network cabling can make a difference, but not in the way you think...
Its a case of the theory verses real world listening, something in Computer Audio you HAVE to try for yourself.
Setting up a balanced mains hardwired install in my system, so was thinking about cable layout, EMI and RF interferance etc, and got to thinking about the rats nest of cabling behind my rack.
Aside from tidying up the mess, keeping power cables seperate from interconnects, not having speaker cable coiled up etc, I replaced the standard Cat5 patch cable with Cat6 Stp cable, which is shielded unlike the standard Cat5.
Cables are succeptable to EMF and RF noise and shielding can make a improvement imo.
Will this apply to network cable? Computer says no..Theory says no...packets are packets etc etc.
Replacing the Cat5 with Cat6 shielded (STP) brought about a positive improvment, a cleaner slightly more open sound.
Another slight nudge in the right direction, everything makes a difference.
I'm not sure I would replace the Cat5e I have trunked along the wall coming from my server room to the lounge, but for the area behind the rack with all the power and interconnect cables squeezed into a small space, its been a worthwhile improvement.
Mark Grant
11-06-2013, 09:02
Found it;
http://imageshack.us/a/img534/1096/003vfh.jpg
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/battery-powered-hot-rod-server-14983/
Nuts!
Another picture from that link:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/009cv_zpsde2bf8f9.jpg
Yes it's Nuts !
A sealed lead acid battery with no fuse that is sat on carpet with inflammable rugs and cushions nearby....:doh:
Also no insulation on the battery terminals, all it needed was some PVC tape to cover the terminals. ( and a fuse)
I'd put all that stuff behind a curtain - looks awful.
Figlet108
11-06-2013, 09:58
...have your music stored not in Flac format but in AIFF (Apple Uncompressed), the improvement is especially noticable with hires files. This is based purely on sanity checked listening tests. :mental:
My take on this is that the way AIFF is stored on the disk (differently than WAV) reduces the number crunching needed for the server to feed music out to your Dac, which in my experience is one of the "holy grail's" of getting the most out of it.
Gary, have you compared uncompressed FLAC with AIFF? Be interested to hear your thoughts on that. I keep changing my mind about whether I can hear a difference or not.
Also, network cabling can make a difference, but not in the way you think...
...I replaced the standard Cat5 patch cable with Cat6 Stp cable, which is shielded unlike the standard Cat5.
Cables are succeptable to EMF and RF noise and shielding can make a improvement imo.
Will this apply to network cable? Computer says no..Theory says no...packets are packets etc etc.
Replacing the Cat5 with Cat6 shielded (STP) brought about a positive improvment, a cleaner slightly more open sound.
Another slight nudge in the right direction, everything makes a difference.
Why not just go to Cat 7. There's even more shielding in that. I got mine from here and it seems well constructed to me:
Cat 7 on ebay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAT-7-SSTP-INTERNET-ETHERNET-NETWORK-LAN-CABLE-10m-33ft-/250732610009?pt=US_Ethernet_Cables_RJ_45_8P8C_&hash=item3a60d401d9)
I didn't do any detailed comparisons as I couldn't be bothered but better shielding for those kinds of cables can only be a good thing - remember it's as important that noise is prevented from *emanating* from the network cable and getting into your system as is it to prevent it getting into the cable to stress the data transmission.
Wouldn't give up on Windows yet guys...
That was meant to be a tongue in cheek remark, hence the laugh.
I doubt many people will enjoy Linux TBH, due to to the configuration that's needed, I however am a bit of a glutton for punishment ;)
Gary, have you compared uncompressed FLAC with AIFF? Be interested to hear your thoughts on that. I keep changing my mind about whether I can hear a difference or not.
Hi Jason.
Yeah, AIFF was for me the best sounding format.
Have converted all my Flacs back up to Lossless AIFF format.
Do it once then forget about it I say. :)
Why not just go to Cat 7. There's even more shielding in that. I got mine from here and it seems well constructed to me:
Cat 7 on ebay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAT-7-SSTP-INTERNET-ETHERNET-NETWORK-LAN-CABLE-10m-33ft-/250732610009?pt=US_Ethernet_Cables_RJ_45_8P8C_&hash=item3a60d401d9)
Good call, no reason not to. Just had some Cat6 lying around from a network install and fitted a couple of RJ45's on the end.
I didn't do any detailed comparisons as I couldn't be bothered but better shielding for those kinds of cables can only be a good thing - remember it's as important that noise is prevented from *emanating* from the network cable and getting into your system as is it to prevent it getting into the cable to stress the data transmission.
Its always worth trying these things, even just to see that it improves things then forget about it.
That was meant to be a tongue in cheek remark, hence the laugh.
I doubt many people will enjoy Linux TBH, due to to the configuration that's needed, I however am a bit of a glutton for punishment ;)
Yeah...I hear you Tim about Linux, didn't take me long to remeber why I gave up on it years ago!
I'm finding that digging deeper into the Windows registry is showing more options for improving things. Was used to working with Windows 7 registry though, quite a few things moved about in 8, which is frustrating.
realysm42
11-06-2013, 10:35
Can you convert any format to another?
I've got one of those mini mains filters, I used to have it plugged into my mdac, made a nice improvememt; it's out of the chain right now, might pop it in again at some point.
Linear psu arrives tomorrow :eek:
I've actually got one for the pc and one for my ifi USB, can't wait now.
Gary, have you compared uncompressed FLAC with AIFF? Be interested to hear your thoughts on that. I keep changing my mind about whether I can hear a difference or not.
Hi Jason.
Yeah, AIFF was for me the best sounding format.
Have converted all my Flacs back up to Lossless AIFF format.
Do it once then forget about it I say. :)
.
Agreed... don't have a clue why though! I did blind test between FLAC & AIFF...
Figlet108
11-06-2013, 10:53
...Have converted all my Flacs back up to Lossless AIFF format.
Do it once then forget about it I say. :)
Agreed. I have all my music in both uncompressed FLAC and AIFF while I dither about which I prefer.
Its always worth trying these things, even just to see that it improves things then forget about it.
Ah, if only being an audiophile was a full time activity and life didn't get in the way :D
Can you convert any format to another?
No, you can't go from anything to anything without loss of data, depending on source and target.
Current best practice is to rip all your music to compressed FLAC as an archive, as it's lossless and an open format so less likely to become obsolete. As it's an archive a high compression level is a good thing to minimise space used.
From the FLAC archive you can convert to any other format without any loss of data.
This means you only ever have to rip your music once and you are pretty well future-proofed.
I use dbpoweramp (http://dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm) for converting formats. It has a very neat batch mode which effectively lets you convert your whole collection with a single click.
realysm42
11-06-2013, 12:33
Nice, I've got my entire collection ripped as high compression .ape, which is also lossless, so I presume the same logic still applies?
Cheers for the info.
Figlet108
11-06-2013, 12:37
Yes, looks like you are all set there Martin. And dbpoweramp converter supports ape as I'm sure many other converters do too.
Nice, I've got my entire collection ripped as high compression .ape, which is also lossless, so I presume the same logic still applies?
Cheers for the info.
Think you use Jriver Martin?
You can convert APE format to AIFF and other uncompressed formats from there quickly and easily.
Can do multiple albums at once too.
realysm42
11-06-2013, 13:08
That's right, Jriver all day long :)
Good stuff, I'll convert some tracks and have a listen.
I've got one of those mini mains filters, I used to have it plugged into my mdac, made a nice improvememt; it's out of the chain right now, might pop it in again at some point.
Linear psu arrives tomorrow :eek:
I've actually got one for the pc and one for my ifi USB, can't wait now.
I don't think anyone could ever accuse you of letting the grass grow under your feet Martin ;)
realysm42
11-06-2013, 20:01
This is where I sound a bit thick, I don't understand :scratch:
"If you never let the grass grow under your feet, you always do things immediately, you don't wait or hesitate but act swiftly."
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&q=don%27t+let+the+grass+grow&oq=dont+let+the+grass&gs_l=hp.1.0.0i10l2j0i8i10i30l2.1367.4668.0.7641.18 .18.0.0.0.0.163.1395.15j3.18.0.eqrwrth.1.0.0...1.1 .16.psy-ab.krhfrIQwv3Q&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47534661,d.d2k&fp=735eacbbf8ea6f2a&biw=1920&bih=1047
realysm42
11-06-2013, 20:11
Heh heh, understood :)
You still going ahead with the blog dude?
Yes, It's up there but still marked as private - however, I have a cunning plan hatching which may mean I don't publish too much of it :eyebrows:
realysm42
25-06-2013, 13:35
I've just taken delivery of my valve DAC, linear PSU for the ifi USB Gemini and linear PSU for the PC by mcru/long dog audio and plumbed it all in.
I know you're meant to be scientific and incremental with additions.
But wtf, in all at once it went!
Its such a huge step forward I can't believe it :eek:
Power is such a misunderstood and underrated area to focus on, on par with actual components I'd say.
Pics to come soon :cheers:
PS thanks Dave and Nick for transforming my set up!
realysm42
25-06-2013, 16:55
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q153/realysm42/Photo0137_zpsb1c0da68.jpg (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/realysm42/media/Photo0137_zpsb1c0da68.jpg.html)
This is how it's looking right now, still got some bits to tidy up and I'll start a proper system thread.
So that's a pc source (linear psu (black boxes on the top shelf) > ifi usb (linear psu) to Dac (Long dog VDtl) with DCT'd tubes, all run through Isotek Aquarius 3, whole system with No.27 mains leads, with plugs upgraded to Isotek IECS and Schukos.
The levitating snake is an MCRU ultimate, feeding the conditioner.
My amps starting to feel a bit self conscious now...
Dac to amp via MCRU ultimate XLRs.
Amp to Ushers is cabled with TQ ultra blacks.
brian2957
26-06-2013, 08:50
I've got to agree with the ' power is so underrated ' Martin . I already use an AG500 ( to great effect ) in my system . I also use good mains cables and plugs. They all make a big difference IMO. My next upgrade will probably be a balanced power supply ( read Garys (Gazjams) ) excellent post on this subject . For the money it's a bit of a no brainer . I've heard the improvements it has made to his system recently , and he tells me it's sounding even better with some burn-in.
realysm42
26-06-2013, 10:22
Yeah, not heard it myself, but imagine the improvements are substantial (with the usual YMMV caveat). I will wait until I've got my own place, and will no doubt follow that path; would much rather hardwire it than have another box in the front room.
Do regenerators still have a place in a balanced mains system?
The guess is yes.
Shame all you guys live so far away; I think I've got Scottish Mafia mentality.
:eek: jeez Martin, that's nothing like the system you had when I popped round :lol:
Looking good fella.
realysm42
29-06-2013, 21:00
Thanks Tim; that's the problem with this forum, you tend to learn things.
Then you tend to buy them!
I'll get some proper pics up next week.
I reckon you can sit back and enjoy the music a little now Martin ;)
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