View Full Version : Shill of the Century
julesd68
17-05-2013, 11:13
You simply have to read this thread on PFM. I haven't really seen the like of it, but then maybe I live a very sheltered life ...
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137875
I would advise reading from start to finish to get the full effect, and to see how the deceipt was 'spun'.
Really quite shocking.
THere is shilling all around us but people can be blind to it.
I'd ignore it and look for something positive.
...and may I say brilliantly handled by Markus S. I feel for paskinn also...
I've had a scan of the pfm thread in question; is it a dealer then who is pretending to be an interested customer and then pretending to discover a fabulous dealer (who just happens to also be him) - is that the idea?
That particular dealer has been posting quite a bit recently – as have people who know him.
There is also mention of some whacky expensive arm cable.
I can’t say I’m surprised, the hi-fi forum world is full of accounts like this these days.
If so then it is up to forum members and mod staff to be vigilant, although I do hope we don't all turn into Little Richard (Dunn's that is...) as a result :lol:
purite audio
17-05-2013, 14:14
Amateur!
A certain small UK active loudspeaker company shilling leaves that attempt dead in the water.
Keith
sq225917
17-05-2013, 14:14
It was actually Lotus who spotted him, and Markus followed up to get the Ip from the Wam.
Good job all round.
He had a trade account on the Wam, but seldom posted, then Manorboy appeared on the Wam (same IP) then CY108 appeared on pfm (same IP) all talking about the same bits, (bits that very likely there are only 1 of in the UK) and all asking each other questions and claiming to have spent a wonderful day at the dealers.
So basically inventing posters and then using them to say what wonderful service and products this dealer offered. WHICH OF COURSE IS ILLEGAL.
Paskinn got caught in the middle, which is unlucky, but highly likely seeing as he claims to have many of the bits they were all talking about.... ;-)
I can’t say I’m surprised, the hi-fi forum world is full of accounts like this these days.
Not on here there isn't - at least none that I know of, otherwise they'd be hoofed, toute-suite!
Regarding shilling, if I thought for one second that anyone here was a genuine shill (other than simply an enthusiastic - perhaps overenthusiastic - owner or salesman of certain products), then they'd be out on their arse quicker than one could sing 'Shill-shillery, shill-shillery, shill shill, sheree...' :trust:
Marco.
No, actually I wasn't thinking so much of here - more a couple of other forums.
I know there's an "in" joke about myself and others being shills, but frankly only an idiot would believe it - yes, I say positive things about Rega in particular, but that's only because they offer a good product at a good price (as well as being British) but the example on PFM really does take the biscuit! Self-promotion is one thing - fraud is quite another, and only right that PFM & Wam won't tolerate it, and neither would we.
Alex, you, me and hifi dave are FAR worse because our approach is far more subtle - apparently. I think I'll stick to Cambridge Audio in future :rolleyes:
Alex, you, me and hifi dave are FAR worse because our approach is far more subtle - apparently. I think I'll stick to Cambridge Audio in future :rolleyes:
Nothing wrong with Cambridge Audio - I get 15% on every sale! :rfl:
The gear that the dealer in question stocks is probably only bought by a few dozen well-heeled, knowledgable enthusiasts in the UK. Why would he risk blowing his reputation with them by pulling such a stupid trick? Must be desperate for business, I guess.
Nothing wrong with Cambridge Audio - I get 15% on every sale! :rfl:
I want to recruit Jammy-dodger to our cause. I mean, he has never joined this forum yet continually takes a pop from the supposed safety of under RD's ample skirts :lol: I mean, he seems so excited at the prospect of upgrading his little amp for a new Elicit R when it arrives he keeps going on and on about it, when in fact I couldn't really give a toss at the price it's going to be :rofl: To suggest that you're the jam in dave and my shill-sandwich is hilarious - he obviously has never met you :lol:
Enjoy Butlitz with the kids :)
I want to recruit Jammy-dodger to our cause. I mean, he has never joined this forum yet continually takes a pop from the supposed safety of under RD's ample skirts :lol:
He doesn't have the balls Dave!
To suggest that you're the jam in dave and my shill-sandwich is hilarious - he obviously has never met you :lol:
But I'm the impressionable "Little Alex"with no mind of my own! :lol:
Enjoy Butlitz with the kids :)
Cheers buddy!
Wow, that is quite shockingly brazen. I wonder how many other sock puppets are at large on the various forums?.
Poor show really... I did love the indignant and hurt rebuttal from 108CY, followed a few posts later by the smoking gun of shared registration emails/IPs - excellent entertainment value!.
Alex
jandl100
18-05-2013, 19:49
I know there's an "in" joke about myself and others being shills, but frankly only an idiot would believe it - yes, I say positive things about Rega in particular, but that's only because they offer a good product at a good price (as well as being British) but the example on PFM really does take the biscuit! Self-promotion is one thing - fraud is quite another, and only right that PFM & Wam won't tolerate it, and neither would we.
Oh, I say, top class shilling, that man. I'm impressed. :clap:
--- you manage to sneak a Rega Shill into an anti-shill post. :D
Only kidding! :lol:
--- you manage to sneak a Rega Shill into an anti-shill post. :D
What can I say, I have mouths to feed! :rfl:
I think there are quite a few 'sock puppets' about on the forums. I realise that this forum gets a lot of stick from another ,particular, forum regarding trade and non-trade promoting specific products - but at least any such is out in the open. Elsewhere, there are definitely trade members (shop owners, staff of shops, front room dealers, reps, friends of all those) who pretend to be clueless innocents looking for the best - which miraculously is ultimately found...
What surprises me about this is that the dealer in question thought it was worth doing and that he thought it wouldn't be blatantly obvious. If he had lust left it at buying a Koetsu he would probably have got away with it. But instead he had to invent a dream customer - came in for a cartridge and ended up buying a new turntable arm, cartridge and super pricey arm cable. In fact, at the end, I did wonder if expenditure on all the other stuff was just a smoke-screen to help justify the arm cable.
The same dealer apparently has 3 Rockport turntables - to have even one would be unprecedented and quite remarkable.
The same dealer apparently has 3 Rockport turntables - to have even one would be unprecedented and quite remarkable.
Dat's easy, man! He's a DJ, innit? Uses 'em for scratchin', innit? Simples! :gig:
Marco.
jandl100
19-05-2013, 12:06
I must admit I wasn't very interested in this sad little saga, and hadn't bothered to look at the pfm thread - then I read this ---->
The same dealer apparently has 3 Rockport turntables - to have even one would be unprecedented and quite remarkable.
3 Rockports.
OMG - that can only be my old mate Mik. :stalks:
So I checked an old PM from him on the Wam - yup, banned.
I've known the guy off and on for 25 years or more, I guess.
Jeez - that is just so amazingly out of character. :scratch:
What was he thinking of? - my guess is he was just having a bit of a laugh.
:rolleyes: :mental:
Jammy dodger REALLY doesn't like dealers. I wonder if he asks for a massive discount on the food or toiletries he buys, since these people make more than most audio dealers on the equipment I fear, although the margins on cables and similar accessories may be similar..
"A hifi dealer like any other dealer is a fukin parasite who thrive's on the Gullable, the Sheep, the Ignorant, the Idiot's the Uneducated etc etc etc.......
A hifi dealer like any other dealer aquires a product at minimum price and attempt's to sell said product for maximum price to the above mentioned.
A hifi dealer like any other dealer folks is scum - the name of their game is RIP-OFF and their target is the above mentioned (G.S.I.I.U.) etc etc etc...
I think people are slowly begining to see this, i feel the tide is slowly turning, let's hope so folk's.
We the educated here at HFS and other's will continue to shine the light, will endevour to expose the hifi industry lowlife in all it's many guise's be it
the Shiller's, the midle men, the trough slurper's, the paid reviwer's, the hifi rag's, the bullshiter's or the dealer's.
Wake up n smell the Rose's folk's."
Back in the 60's and early 70's, people your Dad's age Jammy, entered the HiFi industry for genuine reasons. Not to rip the gullible off, but to share their genuine interest and enthusiasm for music and the means to reproduce it at home. Mis-guided/brainwashed or otherwise, this carried over to the dark UK days of the Linn/Naim dominated 1980's, the "selling" aspect of the job always secondary to the sharing of the belief set - I should know, I was there! The bosses got the bulk of the profit after expenses, not the guys 'on the floor!'
jandl100
19-05-2013, 12:19
What, Jammy? My old Subjective forum mucker?
Nah - you need an IQ above 25 to have opinions of your own.
I'm afraid Jammy doesn't make the grade. :nono:
Jammy just parrots stuff back from Il Duce Dung.
:lol:
You're a naughty boy Jerry, but sometimes, a little perspective is necessary.
There have been some bad dealers out there and anyone starting off now is on a hiding to nothing, the market being what it is. I can think of one not far from my old sh*t kicking ground in bedfordshire, who has a huge and expensive portfolio of gear and running from a very desirable rural location. Guess what, most of his stock is on special offer, his offer list running into pages. Some "new gear/ex-dem" bargains for those who want this stuff and a good saving out of his 30 - 40% margin after taking prompt payment discounts...
Actually, it's some of the mail-order/online manufacturers I'd be most suspicious of. No overheads to speak of, only eBay charges to worry about and still making around a 400% markup on manufacturing costs if I remember from one banned mamber here (you'd have to look up the post concerned when costs were discussed to get precise figures, either here or on PFM, I can't remember). That's far more than any dealer would make on selling equipment rather than cables etc...
Anyway, how many Rockport turntables would have been sold in the UK I wonder?
I'm extremely surprised to find there are even three Rockports in the UK and even more surprised to find them all owned by the same person.
The market in the UK for 'high end' gear is very small and also a pretty conservative one. If someone is intending to spend big on an audio component they are rarely willing to look beyond the well known brands.
I can think of one amateur dealer who has taken on a lesser known amplifier brand - I also know that the last two distributors to represent that brand failed to sell any - I see no reason why that should change.
Dave, please don't read this inconsequential nonsense if it upsets you so much. I used to go to HFS just to laugh at what they were writing about me and others but that soon got boring as they keep repeating the same old tune. HFS is the North Korea of the hifi world IMHO.
jandl100
19-05-2013, 13:58
Dave, please don't read this inconsequential nonsense if it upsets you so much.
Some folks just cannot help themselves from keeping on squeezing an infected spot to see how much more putrid pus they can get out.
I think that's a very apt analogy for HFS. :D
Canetoad
19-05-2013, 15:48
"A hifi dealer like any other dealer is a fukin parasite who thrive's on the Gullable, the Sheep, the Ignorant, the Idiot's the Uneducated etc etc etc.......
A hifi dealer like any other dealer aquires a product at minimum price and attempt's to sell said product for maximum price to the above mentioned.
A hifi dealer like any other dealer folks is scum - the name of their game is RIP-OFF and their target is the above mentioned (G.S.I.I.U.) etc etc etc...
I think people are slowly begining to see this, i feel the tide is slowly turning, let's hope so folk's.
We the educated here at HFS and other's will continue to shine the light, will endevour to expose the hifi industry lowlife in all it's many guise's be it
the Shiller's, the midle men, the trough slurper's, the paid reviwer's, the hifi rag's, the bullshiter's or the dealer's.
Wake up n smell the Rose's folk's."
Someone needs to learn how to spell and punctuate. :lol:
You're a naughty boy Jerry, but sometimes, a little perspective is necessary.
There have been some bad dealers out there and anyone starting off now is on a hiding to nothing, the market being what it is. I can think of one not far from my old sh*t kicking ground in bedfordshire, who has a huge and expensive portfolio of gear and running from a very desirable rural location. Guess what, most of his stock is on special offer, his offer list running into pages. Some "new gear/ex-dem" bargains for those who want this stuff and a good saving out of his 30 - 40% margin after taking prompt payment discounts...
Actually, it's some of the mail-order/online manufacturers I'd be most suspicious of. No overheads to speak of, only eBay charges to worry about and still making around a 400% markup on manufacturing costs if I remember from one banned mamber here (you'd have to look up the post concerned when costs were discussed to get precise figures, either here or on PFM, I can't remember). That's far more than any dealer would make on selling equipment rather than cables etc...
Anyway, how many Rockport turntables would have been sold in the UK I wonder?
I have worked 70 to 80 hours per week for the past 18 months David and have made less than a small fraction of the mark-up you quote. I most certainly do not make anything like that on cables (Yes, it's my choice but I aim to provide VFM and quality as you can have both) and I know that I am not alone in this area. I think that I know the chap you're referring to and there are undoubtedly some on-line retailers making 400% but probably a lot more making far less. I think that to survive in the industry these days it's good customer service and quality that counts most and not necessarily bottom line but you do have to be realistic as value is usually perceived by comparison with similar performance and quality.
Most people are intelligent enough these days to know when they're being had and with the interweb it's very easy to bench-mark. I don't think it's necessarily a case of dealers having to justify what they charge, it's more like customers deciding how much they're willing to spend and they generally know what quality standards and performance they're after and how much they're willing to pay for that.
Fascinating indeed, I am clearly naive but was not aware that dealers/manufacturers could stoop quite as low as this!:confused:
jandl100
19-05-2013, 18:14
Oh boy - I just read that PFM thread. :stalks:
Whoops.
Yes, I got sucked into a thread on the Wam, getting what I thought was 'impartial' advice from a wealthy enthusiast who had owned all manner of top gear (i.e. one of his aliases). Turns out he sells it all. Strange thing was that, if I had been influenced, I wouldn't have bought from his business anyway, because I'd never heard of it! Presumably, if he'd simply registered / paid as a dealer on the forums and participated 'normally', he'd probably have been welcomed with interest as he has experience of some very esoteric gear ... rather than this danaging outcome.
Audioman
19-05-2013, 19:05
Yes, I got sucked into a thread on the Wam, getting what I thought was 'impartial' advice from a wealthy enthusiast who had owned all manner of top gear (i.e. one of his aliases). Turns out he sells it all. Strange thing was that, if I had been influenced, I wouldn't have bought from his business anyway, because I'd never heard of it! Presumably, if he'd simply registered / paid as a dealer on the forums and participated 'normally', he'd probably have been welcomed with interest as he has experience of some very esoteric gear ... rather than this danaging outcome.
He was registered as a trade member on WAM. The funny thing was when he started a thread with only himself and his alter ego having a cosy conversation about the brands he stocked. :lol:
If Jammy and DQ are real people then I'll eat my Brio-R.
The apology was the most dignified part of that thread. In fact it was the best apology since John Cleese apologised to Otto (Kevin Kline) in A Fish Called Wanda.
Fascinating indeed, I am clearly naive but was not aware that dealers/manufacturers could stoop quite as low as this!:confused:
A judge was sentencing a man for bestiality with a dog. The judge was clearly disgusted and shaking his head asked the prisoner "How low can you go?" The answer was "Dachshund".
jandl100
20-05-2013, 06:42
If Jammy and DQ are real people then I'll eat my Brio-R.
I have this horrible feeling that they are very real, actually. :doh:
Guys,
Let's leave the inter-forum sniping there and rise above their inanity. All you're doing is giving the saddos on HFS the attention that they crave.
Back to the subject of shilling now on forums - churz! :)
Marco.
sq225917
20-05-2013, 08:16
So I wonder if anyone from either forum is going to press charges, it is after all simple misrepresentation and that's fraud. Hell they even passed a specific addition to the law last year just to cover this very type of internet fraud.
Claiming he was having a laugh is risable, he's a liar, plain and simple and he takes his potential customers as all being mugs.
We should all call him up and order something on nicked credit cards and see how he likes it. The scum.
jandl100
20-05-2013, 08:20
Claiming he was having a laugh is risable
Yes, that's fair comment. As I said, I hadn't read the thread at that point, I just know the guy concerned. I have read it now, and I recognised characteristic turns of phrase with a genuine feeling of shock and dismay.
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