Munich 2013 Pictures - Forget The Rest Leo Is The Best! [Archive]

Spectral Morn

10-05-2013, 19:28

Oh I dunno the image quality is amazing. But he does get carried away, especially this year, with some boring shots. But there are some real gems in there.

They'll go on and on and on... and on. Quazillions of the things:lol:

For last years Whittelbury Show I took about 800 photos but because my Dad died while I was doing the report I only published the ground floor rooms - I am working on the upstairs rooms at the minute and I am about 3/4 of the way through writing it up. Its as well I take loads of notes or I would have been snookered.

I debated not bothering but I don't like leaving stuff undone so I am doing it now - more or less the last of the back log of stuff I had to do.

I have to be honest I have followed the links and looked at lots of the photos and only a handful have jumped out as being good photos a lot of them miss the mark and are poor - again in my opinion.

Shows are hard to cover well though and among the hard thing to do is walking into a room and just taking photos ( I try to be sensitive and mindful but do annoy people regardless) and thus getting in peoples way and walking in front of the speakers etc. I would be dead multiple times if I took into account the eye daggers thrown my way. Equally its frustrating when some zombie attender, unaware of their surroundings just walks in front of the camera and screws a good shot up.

Thanks for the link by the way.

Regards Neil

User211

10-05-2013, 19:35

Well I expressed an opinion and doing so always gets a result:)

I think he needs a "filter" to consolidate only the best shots, but there sure are some freaking nice ones in there.

chelsea

10-05-2013, 19:46

Some lovely stuff on show.
Such a shame the uk has nothing like this.

Tarzan

10-05-2013, 20:43

Sorry but id had enough by page 2

x2

The Grand Wazoo

10-05-2013, 20:47

I didn't make it to page 2 - on page 1 there were 2 photos of the steps on a staircase! That was too much for me.

MartinT

10-05-2013, 21:16

He does have a good eye for a shot. However, I agree that less would be more and fewer well-selected shots would make a better album.

User211

10-05-2013, 21:19

Will anyone make it to the end?:)

Last time I checked he was using a Canon of some description. He may also be using some processing s/w. Will anyone concede great image quality?

chelsea

10-05-2013, 21:20

First time i've heard people moan over to many pics.lol
Was hoping to go this year,maybe next if i can.
Looks well worth the effort rather than the uk ones left.

MartinT

10-05-2013, 21:30

Yes, excellent image quality without a doubt, although a couple of slips in fine focus.

Barry

10-05-2013, 21:35

Well, I waded through all 14 pages - and it said everything I hate about audio shows: the sheer OTT nature of it all; often only to produce a mediocre result, and one that could have been bettered at a fraction of the cost.

All I can say is if the sounds created were half as good as the quality of the photos it might just have been worthwhile.

But the OTT cabling and those silly little cable supports!

In fact the only pages that drew my attention were those featuring Brinkmann, Nagra (love the idea of providing a Nagra IV-S for use at a headphone bar), EMT and the Breuer 8 tonearm (even if the counterweight had been reversed!)

Oh - and the the use of seating, designed to be only comfortable for at most 20 minutes, in order to discourage timewasters. (I wonder if they consulted McDonald's over this?)

.
.
.
.

Be assured, the AOS Show will a lot better than this!

clap

10-05-2013, 22:03

The pics are great. Looks a fantastic show. I will try and go next year. Id like to hear the TAD set up.

chelsea

10-05-2013, 22:10

The pics are great. Looks a fantastic show. I will try and go next year. Id like to hear the TAD set up.

Agreed,does look great.
Love some of the horn systems.

Would love to hear the olympians one day as well.

The Grand Wazoo

10-05-2013, 22:40

The image quality is mostly excellent but what is missing most is a little lot of editorial discipline.

gariusmacus

10-05-2013, 22:47

A picture may paint a thousand words but, a thousand pictures is just a visual cacophony........
(I know its only 800 but, forgive me a little poetic license :eyebrows:)

Werner Berghofer

10-05-2013, 22:51

Gary,

a thousand pictures is just a visual cacophony

I wholeheartedly agree and want to add that such thoughtless work simply wasn’t possible in the era of analogue photography, because the photographer was limited to a certain number of shots available on a roll of film.

Werner.

The Grand Wazoo

10-05-2013, 22:55

....and the cost of developing the results.

(Hi Werner and welcome back to AoS - I'm glad you are on the mend)

Barry

10-05-2013, 23:34

A picture may paint a thousand words but, a thousand pictures is just a visual cacophony........
(I know its only 800 but, forgive me a little poetic license :eyebrows:)

Would that be a cacoscopy or a cacography? Agreed nonetheless!

RichB

11-05-2013, 00:44

Nice to see Werner back, I found his posts most insightful when I first joined AoS.

Spectral Morn

11-05-2013, 07:06

A picture may paint a thousand words but, a thousand pictures is just a visual cacophony........
(I know its only 800 but, forgive me a little poetic license :eyebrows:)

I suspect that the subject of the thread posts many, many more than that.

The figure you quote was the number I took (at a guess) at last years National Audio Show and I certainly don't publish every photo I take as many are not worthy but its better to take more so you have more to chose from -and I may take a couple of one subject - just in case there are issues that only show up later on, when its too late to do anything about it.

Regards Neil

Spectral Morn

11-05-2013, 07:07

Nice to see Werner back, I found his posts most insightful when I first joined AoS.

Indeed it is I am glad he is on the mend after is illness.

Regards and best wishes

Neil

jandl100

11-05-2013, 07:29

Thanks for the linkie, Justin. :cool:

My, what a lot of hifi - most of the brands I didn't even recognise!

The pics give a feel for the event - but it all looks kind of chromey, stark, uber-clean and soulless. :scratch: But I guess that's the Germans for you! :)
.... an interesting and almost total contrast to Scalford, and even the UK's National Show. I know which I prefer - and I know which has more relevance to the industry.
I had been wondering about next year, but I must admit that the pics don't tempt me to head Munich-ward.

Roll on the AOS Show and 2014 Scalford!! :carrot:

jandl100

11-05-2013, 07:46

... and anyway, where are all the scantily clad young ladies, showing their all to advertise product? Very disappointing. :eyebrows:

Anti Meep

11-05-2013, 09:05

Gary,

I wholeheartedly agree and want to add that such thoughtless work simply wasn’t possible in the era of analogue photography, because the photographer was limited to a certain number of shots available on a roll of film.

Werner.

Yup, digital sure does add convenience.:)
Well done to the photographer! Great shots IMO.
Aside from the quality and quantity of shots though, I just get tired of BLING!
High end seems to be dominated by Bling these days.
If it shouts "Look At Me" rather than " Listen To me" I'm afraid I tend to just walk past.
Got about page 10 before I gave up.
Would I pay to attend though? Yes I would.:lol:
Craig.

YNWaN

11-05-2013, 09:39

.... an interesting and almost total contrast to Scalford, and even the UK's National Show. I know which I prefer - and I know which has more relevance to the industry.

I presume, from the implied tone, that you are saying you prefer the Scalford show to the Munich show and also feel it has more relevance to the industry.

I've attended both shows and other than being shows with hi-fi in them, they really have very little in common. The Munich show really is a show for the industry and a great number of those that attend are in said industry; many distributors looking to extend their portfolio go to Munich and a lot of business takes place. In a real financial sense, the Munich show has much more to do with the hi-fi industry than the Scalford show.

However, for me, the appeal of the Scalford show always was the hobbyist and DIY element. Since the reinvention of the Wam as a business, the amateur status of the show has gradually been undermined (in my opinion) and a number of moderators now have retail trade interests.

I look forward to attending the Munich show again in the future.

jandl100

11-05-2013, 09:45

I presume, from the implied tone, that you are saying you prefer the Scalford show to the Munich show

Yep.

.... and also feel it has more relevance to the industry.

:lol: - you must be joking. Scalford is totally irrelevant to the hifi industry. It's a great day out, though. :thumbsup:

I feel sure that Munich is where it's at for the Euro-hifi business.

Marco

11-05-2013, 10:44

Lol, Jerry! Me thinks you're being a teensy wee bit negative about the Munich show which, quite simply, blows away any commercial audio show in the UK (Scalford, as you rightly say, is a very different thing).

I'd love to go to Munich, and indeed will do so, probably next year. I respect the serious attention to detail and professionalism in evidence throughout the show, in terms of innovative room layouts and the sheer array of different (genuinely high-end) kit, much of which is way off the boring mainstream arena! :exactly:

Here are my highlights from Leo's superb pics (I've been through all 29 pages)... First of all, the coolest looking collection of turntables I've seen for sometime, all of which, visually (at least), I'd be happy to own:

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/810/img2581ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/img2581ss.jpg/)

The enginnering quality there is simply stunning - exactly how turntables should be built!

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8377/img2630ssz.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/img2630ssz.jpg/)

Equally awesome!!

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/3127/img2643ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/img2643ss.jpg/)

High-mass string/long belt-drives, such as the above, are definitely the way I'd go if I ever lose my direct-drive T/T fetish!

These are also examples of what I consider are very cool looking T/Ts (all of which exude classic elegance in design or are funky looking, and totally devoid of bling):

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9247/img3016ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/img3016ss.jpg/)

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7672/img3417ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/img3417ss.jpg/)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5318/img2775ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/401/img2775ss.jpg/)

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/521/img3997ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/img3997ss.jpg/)

I'm not so keen on the look of this, but my gut feeling tells me that it would sound superb:

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3847/img3385ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/521/img3385ss.jpg/)

The engineering just looks 'right'. In terms of funky designs, I also love this:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5961/img3015ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/img3015ss.jpg/)

And this has got to be the coolest looking CD rack ever:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3352/img3083ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/img3083ss.jpg/)

:stalks: Awesome!!

A rather novel way of displaying cables:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9339/img2757ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/img2757ss.jpg/)

Love the look of these mains blocks:

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1293/img2720ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/img2720ss.jpg/)

I've always liked those European-style plugs and connectors!

Some of my favourite cartridges (and all-time fav tonearm):

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4960/img2836ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/img2836ss.jpg/)

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4364/img2837ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/img2837ss.jpg/)

Barry, I'm surprised you missed those!! :eek:

Some rather interesting headshells:

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4791/img3910ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/img3910ss.jpg/)

Probably the best examples of speaker binding posts I've seen, nice and simple, but effective (I much prefer spades to banana plugs, as I feel that, when done properly, they offer a superior connection):

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9386/img3451ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/541/img3451ss.jpg/)

Interesting how a modern Tannoy DC differs from the vintage designs:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/214/img3496ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/211/img3496ss.jpg/)

Nice to see Clarity Caps being used extensively in the crossovers (just like in mine with my 15" MGs):

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3448/img3488ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/img3488ss.jpg/)

Some nice 'orangey' valve amps for Andre?

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9821/img4166ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/img4166ss.jpg/)

These have got to be the most OTT valves I've seen:

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3183/img4047ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/img4047ss.jpg/)

Anyone know what they are?

I'd like to have heard this system:

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1677/img2964ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/img2964ss.jpg/)

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5725/img2965ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/img2965ss.jpg/)

I'll add a few more of my fav pics from the show later! :)

Marco.

Clive

11-05-2013, 10:58

chelsea

11-05-2013, 11:02

The little speaker in the last pic is extremely cool looking in the right setting.
Some stunning looking stuff there.

Canetoad

11-05-2013, 11:05

I liked the wicker alien egg pod seats! :lol:

MartinT

11-05-2013, 11:07

Some rather intersting headshells

I want, I want!

http://www.arche-headshell.de/s/cc_images/cache_16045315.jpg?t=1366291259

YNWaN

11-05-2013, 12:23

Marco, at least three of the turntables pictured, that you say you like, are not thread drive - they are rubber belt drive (just a long one).

Marco

11-05-2013, 12:37

Marco

11-05-2013, 12:47

I want, I want!

http://www.arche-headshell.de/s/cc_images/cache_16045315.jpg?t=1366291259

Those are about the best I've seen! :wowzer:

Wonder how much they are?

Marco.

Marco

11-05-2013, 12:53

One thing that stands out from the huge array of photos is the number of rooms very sensibly using acoustic panels, mainly at the 1st reflection point. It's clear these guys are very well experienced in setup for shows...

Indeed. I'm afraid it puts to shame the sloppy and haphazard system set-up approach of 'let's just shove it all out and get to the bar, ASAP', with often kit simply plonked on the floor and powered by cheapo 'B&Q-style' power strips, of many exhibitors at commercial UK audio shows!! :doh:

I don't think I saw one non-display only system that wasn't supported on a proper hi-fi stand, or which didn't use decent cables (although admittedly some of the latter were a bit OTT)... I totally respect the German mentality for perfection in everything (or at least their notion of it). If you're going to do a job, then DO IT RIGHT!!! :exactly:

Marco.

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 12:54

Aren't these the same speaker cables Audio Al got free with his RAMs? :eyebrows:

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_2830ss.jpg

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 12:57

Special HiFi for the over 50s? :lol:

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_2912ss.jpg

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 13:00

Is it just me, or do you think everyone would think you are a bit of a prick with these speakers? ;)

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_2999ss.jpg

Actually, there are a serious amount of fugly speakers and I'm only 6 pages in! :spew:

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 13:04

Really? Is it a tombstone?

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3068ss.jpg

Or an electric fire?

Rare Bird

11-05-2013, 13:05

Nice curtains :D

Barry

11-05-2013, 13:07

Hi Marco,

No, I didn't miss the EMT products - it's just I don't covert an EMT 997 arm quite as much as you. :) I would prefer to use a 12" Brinkmann arm (based as it is on the Breuer arm).

Agree with what others have said about the 'Bling factor'; though I agree with you regarding the sensible speaker terminals.

Not sure about the modular style headshell - too many component parts and thus many resonant frequencies possible.

Think the valves are type 211, but you had better ask Ali.

You failed to notice the final sentance of my post: I have set a very high bar for AoS's own show!

Cheers

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 13:08

Love this rack, with built in power distribution - great idea!

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3172ss.jpg
http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3173ss.jpg

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 13:09

Nice curtains :D

:rfl:

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 13:21

These are quite cute...

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3514ss.jpg

But I'm not sure "...The Future is Grimm" is the best thought out company slogan!

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 13:26

I can't imagine what a "Lady Taxi" is? :eek:

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3668ss.jpg

Barry

11-05-2013, 13:28

I can't imagine what a "Lady Taxi" is? :eek:

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3668ss.jpg

I wonder if "She has a ticket to ride"? :eyebrows:

MartinT

11-05-2013, 13:35

I wonder if "She has a ticket to ride"? :eyebrows:

I think it's you who will need one!

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 13:37

...and the back end of a Lady Taxi...! Are the other two Lady Buses, I wonder?

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3697ss.jpg

User211

11-05-2013, 13:39

I had been wondering about next year, but I must admit that the pics don't tempt me to head Munich-ward.:

What?

Pants.

Look!

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3362ss.jpg

And you have to hear these, Jerry.

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3370ss.jpg

Nevermind until you go out there you can make do with this vid I shot in 2011: 101 X-Treme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I66XjjXtPCI)

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 13:42

Latest product from Okki Nokki - get your records Beard Buffed after every clean!

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_3740ss.jpg

YNWaN

11-05-2013, 13:58

Yup, Mark. However it's the sheer high-mass nature of their design, coupled with powerful off-board motors (IMO, the only way that belt-drive works to its full potential), together with the uber-engineering quality in evidence, which ticks the main boxes for me :)

Marco.

Well, if you say so. The Well Tempered is really a low mass design though (but it does use a thread drive) and most of the TW acustic decks are less massy than one may expect.

Jerry, it seems we are in agreement regarding the commercial importance of Scalford (though there are certainly others who would like to imagine it is otherwise).

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 14:16

Nope, I don't have any words for these! :eek:

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_4329ss.jpg

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 14:19

What sort of "Night Dreams" would those be, then?! :eek: Good job it's made from Stainless Steel, then!

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_4351ss.jpg

gariusmacus

11-05-2013, 14:22

Nope, I don't have any words for these! :eek:

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_4329ss.jpg

I can just see my two year old great-niece feeding them Jam sandwiches :lol:

Alex_UK

11-05-2013, 14:22

There was a falling out at the Cybermen convention by the look of it... ;)

http://my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_4391ss.jpg

MartinT

11-05-2013, 14:56

Nope, I don't have any words for these! :eek:

:rfl:

Marco

11-05-2013, 16:03

I also love the retro 'old school'/industrial look of this stuff:

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7697/img3822ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/img3822ss.jpg/)

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/4998/img3823ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/img3823ss.jpg/)

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/2677/img3826ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/img3826ss.jpg/)

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5520/img3829ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/img3829ss.jpg/)

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5175/img3830ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/img3830ss.jpg/)

Lurvely!! :)

I also spied this rather interesting reel-to-reel machine, next to a CD and vinyl stall:

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/74/img3876ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/img3876ss.jpg/)

And this system contains more potential excitement for me than the contents of any 'Lady Taxi'...

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2816/img2838ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/img2838ss.jpg/)

EMT PORN!!! :stalks:

Marco.

Marco

11-05-2013, 16:41

Yo Bazza,

No, I didn't miss the EMT products - it's just I don't covert an EMT 997 arm quite as much as you. :) I would prefer to use a 12" Brinkmann arm (based as it is on the Breuer arm).

Can you plug a traditional SPU into it? If not, it no interesty me...

Agree with what others have said about the 'Bling factor'; though I agree with you regarding the sensible speaker terminals.

I've always loved those 'wing nut' style binding posts, where chunky spade connectors are accepted, which can then be nicely 'nipped up' tight!

Not sure about the modular style headshell - too many component parts and thus many resonant frequencies possible.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but sometimes those things can cancel each other out. However, it just looks so cool!

Think the valves are type 211, but you had better ask Ali.

For me, they look bigger than 211s...

You failed to notice the final sentance of my post: I have set a very high bar for AoS's own show!

"Sentance"? Tut tut....! ;)

Lol... No chance - it'll be a totally different type of show. I think the highlight will be Chris (TGW) and you doing a duet together :eyebrows:

Marco.

realysm42

11-05-2013, 16:52

Marco, that TT you pointed out as a potential good performer is reviewed in HiFi news this month, its a £75,000 monster. Got rated well lol.

Marco

11-05-2013, 16:56

I presume you mean the first one I showed?

Ridiculous price, but I'm not surprised that it was well-rated, as for me, it contains all (or most) of the right bits... I'll check out the review later. Aesthetically, I just LURVE the look of copper and black together on the same T/T - gorgeous!! :cool:

Marco.

Patrick Dixon

11-05-2013, 17:21

I also spied this rather interesting reel-to-reel machine, next to a CD and vinyl stall:

It's a Telefunken M10A - I have one.

Unfortunately mine doesn't actually work.

trio leo

11-05-2013, 17:48

Went through all 29 pages, super job by Leo, that is a big show!! it must be expensive to exhibit there,
Nice to see a huge variety of designs in all fields, lots of turntables, vinyl is obviously very strong in Germany, I've never seen so many enormous speakers.

I must make a point of going to that show.

Al

The Grand Wazoo

11-05-2013, 17:59

But I'm not sure "...The Future is Grimm" is the best thought out company slogan!

Better than "The future is Schiit"

sq225917

11-05-2013, 18:20

I took some crap photo's this year. I'll put em up later tonight. I took plenty of Ortofon SPU just for you Marco.

Marco

11-05-2013, 18:54

Nice one, Simone! Look forward to seeing the pron later :)

Marco.

Barry

11-05-2013, 19:11

Yo Bazza,
Can you plug a traditional SPU into it? If not, it no interesty me...
No, you can't. One would have to use one of the SPUs sans headshell. However the 997 is available in two lengths and bayonet styles: one for EMT carts and the other for SME style shells. The following might be of interest:
http://www.toneimports.com/emt/tonearm.html
However the arm is too long to be able to fit to your Technics (unless you change it for an SP10).

"Sentance"? Tut tut....! ;)
Oh dear - another effect of consuming a bottle of Médoc, the 2010 Chateau Fleur La Mothe to be precise!

Lol... No chance - it'll be a totally different type of show. I think the highlight will be Chris (TGW) and you doing a duet together :eyebrows:
Yes - we'll be singing duets from the Frank Zappa Songbook! :lol:

Marco.

The last comment was more of a threat than a promise. ;)

WOStantonCS100

11-05-2013, 19:34

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2816/img2838ss.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/img2838ss.jpg/)

EMT PORN!!!

H- - - yes!

On the other hand, personally, nothing puts me to sleep faster than a stack of McIntosh amps. Maybe it's because they seem to be everywhere around here. There are so many more interesting choices. YAWN.

Marco

11-05-2013, 19:35

Bazzanto,

The last comment was more of a threat than a promise.

Hehehe... It's the promised striptease afterwards I'm dreading most! :lol:

However the arm is too long to be able to fit to your Technics (unless you change it for an SP10).

Ah, but this gorgeous thing:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2671/emtbanana.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/emtbanana.jpg/)

...wouldn't be for an SP10. It would be to use with one of these babies, in a suitable plinth (my next T/T project):

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9913/garrard301.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/garrard301.jpg/)

;)

Marco.

Barry

11-05-2013, 19:45

Bazzanto,

Ah, but this gorgeous thing:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2671/emtbanana.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/emtbanana.jpg/)

...wouldn't be for an SP10. It would be to use with one of these babies, in a suitable plinth (my next T/T project):

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9913/garrard301.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/garrard301.jpg/)

;)

Marco.

Oh yes - now that has my full approval! :)

User211

12-05-2013, 11:27

Now he's moved onto Hi-Fi Deluxe...

sq225917

12-05-2013, 12:58

addict

12-05-2013, 13:52

I want, I want!

http://www.arche-headshell.de/s/cc_images/cache_16045315.jpg?t=1366291259

Looks like the pedals and cleats I used to have on my Chas Roberts.

The Grand Wazoo

12-05-2013, 14:03

Looks like the pedals and cleats I used to have on my Chas Roberts.

Is that Cockney rhyming slang for some body part or other?

sq225917

12-05-2013, 14:21

Looks like the pedals and cleats I used to have on my Chas Roberts.

http://www.arche-headshell.de/s/cc_images/cache_16045315.jpg?t=1366291259

Now that was very clever, with a whole range of adjustment from within the headshell itself, VTA, pivot to spindle. There was another really funky arm there from Daniel Schuch.

http://schuchtronic.de/Images/Tonarm-Schuchtronic01.jpg
This was an angle adjusting tracker, but the difference being that all the bearings were knife edge and there's only a single pivot at the headshell. it needs some tweaking to look production ready but he's thinking of 4k which is very fair.

addict

12-05-2013, 14:29

Is that Cockney rhyming slang for some body part or other?

HaHa! this is a Chas Roberts

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k602/giom6/DOGS%20BOLX/db2_257.jpg

User211

12-05-2013, 15:48

http://www.flickr.com/photos/59684834@N08/8730504827/in/set-72157633476692626/lightbox/

I took some shots on the first day, I couldn't be ar5ed after that. Lots of lovely stuff on show, with a pitiful amount of it being sanely priced.

The ones you could be ar5ed with are fine indeed.

Love Leo's TDP TT shot.

http://www.my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_4804ss.jpg

Spectral Morn

12-05-2013, 16:26

The ones you could be ar5ed with are fine indeed.

Love Leo's TDP TT shot.

http://www.my-hiend.com/leoyeh/2013b/IMG_4804ss.jpg

Now that is a nice photo :cool:

YNWaN

12-05-2013, 19:40

You wouldn't believe how expensive the rooms are that exhibitors show in at Munich - it's no coincidence that many rooms are shared by more than one manufacturer. Also, this is a genuinely important show for those manufacturers and they are there to do real business not just a bit if PR. As a result, every effort and gimmick is applied to achieve the best results. Pretty much every room has the actual designers of the components present, happy to discuss technicalities. This show really is in an entirely different league than the stuff the UK has to offer.

purite audio

12-05-2013, 20:06

Try and make it next year Mark,
KR Keith.

YNWaN

12-05-2013, 20:17

Perhaps... I would like to...

Happy memories Keith ...many thanks

Marco

12-05-2013, 20:43

YNWaN

12-05-2013, 22:33

I would say it's not all that difficult to perceive why that is

Marco

12-05-2013, 22:59

And so, in your opinion, what is the reason? :)

Marco.

MartinT

13-05-2013, 05:33

jandl100

13-05-2013, 06:19

I agree that leading edge engineering is now, all too often, passé in the UK, with it's 'Amstrad is good enough' outlook and the superficial cult of glitzy celebrity.
But I'm sure that part of the reason for this is that the innovative hifi engineering is so often attached to hifi components the cost of a car, or even of a house.

And all too often the cost of the blingy appearance is allowed to dominate the balance sheet. It's madness, in my view, distancing ordinary folk from access to the really good kit. We used to get it right, and still do to an extent, with world class but affordable engineering and a form follows function appearance - SME, Michell, Tom Evans come to mind.

http://schuchtronic.de/Images/Tonarm-Schuchtronic01.jpg

Hey, I made one of those with my Meccano set when I was a lad. :lol:
-- perhaps form is following function a little too closely, here!

(Sorry for lowering the tone of this sensible discussion. :eyebrows:)

jandl100

13-05-2013, 06:35

http://www.flickr.com/photos/59684834@N08/8730504827/in/set-72157633476692626/lightbox/

I took some shots on the first day, I couldn't be ar5ed after that. Lots of lovely stuff on show, with a pitiful amount of it being sanely priced.

Wow - many really fine photos there, Simon.

Leo could take lessons! :)

Alan Sircom

16-05-2013, 10:57

One of the reasons, and I've said this many times before, is there is no pride in engineering in this country. People would rather look up to Alan Sugar and his Amstrad crap than to admire real high end engineering, for which you need to pay appropriately. The Munich show warms my heart, frankly, and demonstrates that the specialist hi-fi industry is in good health, at least in other markets. Yes, there is bling, but there is also a remarkable amount of R&D on display and attempts to find solutions to the better replay of music. You have to hand it to the Germans and wonder at our inability to lay on a similar show. Need I mention that the same thing happened to cars?

Up to a point, perhaps. It's worth noting that we had this level of show for many years. The collective hi-fi powers that be required it to move from Harrogate to Heathrow when the demands of importers and distributors proved greater than those of the home crowd (the same drive moved the German show from Frankfurt to Munich, when it became clear the Heathrow show was a busted flush).

One of the problems here is we don't have a Branko Glisovic running the show scene. When we did - and her name was Janet Belton - we had a world class show. It was expensive to exhibit, in part because that helps keep the weird and wonderful at arm's length. When Belton retired and the job went to a corporate team who were also planning another five shows in the same month, rather than having time to chase the big hitters, they went for the lowest common denominator. This meant the show goers quickly became dissatisfied with the quality of the show, the more professional companies pulled out of the event and it became a race to the bottom. The impact of the Cheater Group seeing an opportunity to take over didn't help matters.

The interesting part of this is how Glisovic runs the show in terms of bookings from companies. Unlike almost any other show anywhere in the world (except for CES), IIRC he actually charges a late premium, which prevents the last minute brinkmanship that lets any company take a room at knock-down prices. So, if you take one of the rooms off the main atrium, it might cost you €10,000 if you booked it now for 2014, but it will cost you €15,000 if you book it a week before the event.

I don't know if this could work in other countries. It certainly doesn't work in Italy anymore - TOP Audio has been cancelled this year because of the lack of early bookings. In great fairness to a rival, Hi-Fi News is attempting to revive the UK top-end show with a small, select event in Windsor at the end of the year, but my concern here is it is possibly too small and select to make a difference. Those of us in the press who aren't working for Hi-Fi News are more than happy to promote and write about the show (because it builds our industry), but we're hearing reports of placing bouncers at the door to bar entry to any writer or blogger, forum scribe or anyone with a camera and a note pad who isn't working for Hi-Fi News.

purite audio

16-05-2013, 14:00

I heard that show is being sponsored. by Ricardo, any truth in that Alan.
Kr Keith.

Alan Sircom

16-05-2013, 14:36

I heard that show is being sponsored. by Ricardo, any truth in that Alan.
Kr Keith.

AFAIK, no. I think Absolute Sounds is taking more than one room at the show, but that's about the limit of it. Truth is, the rest of the audio business is held at such arm's length WRT this show, no-one knows WTF is going on there.

I hope it works out, but its being played very close to the HFN chest at this time.

Spectral Morn

16-05-2013, 15:31

, but we're hearing reports of placing bouncers at the door to bar entry to any writer or blogger, forum scribe or anyone with a camera and a note pad who isn't working for Hi-Fi News.

That's interesting Alan and a bit sad and could damage the credibility of the show, in my opinion. I wonder what it is they are afraid of? If the show is run well, with well set up rooms and good sound what's the problem?

Anyway I was not going to cover it myself as it looked to be too small to justify my costs and a bit out of the way for me as well.

I do wonder though how this show might affect NAS 2013?

Regards Neil

Marco

16-05-2013, 15:41

That's interesting Alan and a bit sad and could damage the credibility of the show, in my opinion. I wonder what it is they are afraid of? If the show is run well, with well set up rooms and good sound what's the problem?

+1. I dislike such censorship. Quite simply, if the 'product' is good, then it should be open to scrutiny.

However, I can't see how they are going to enforce such a thing effectively, given how small mobile phones (with cameras) are these days. What are they going to do, strip-search people? :eek: :eyebrows:

And how will they know who is a "forum scribe", or not, unless they're blatantly advertising the fact? It's bollocks.

Marco.

Alan Sircom

16-05-2013, 15:47

That's interesting Alan and a bit sad and could damage the credibility of the show, in my opinion. I wonder what it is they are afraid of? If the show is run well, with well set up rooms and good sound what's the problem?

Anyway I was not going to cover it myself as it looked to be too small to justify my costs and a bit out of the way for me as well.

I do wonder though how this show might affect NAS 2013?

Regards Neil

I don't think it's being afraid of anything. It's possibly an attempt to keep things proprietary. Under Paul's editorship, HFN has long been about exclusives. It would be a logical extension of that demand for exclusivity to include HFN's own show.

Whether it affects the National Audio Show remains to be seen. Absolute Sound has not been at the NAS for some years, but Kog, Symmetry and (AFAIK) NuNu have been regular fixtures. Given Kog's propensity to take big rooms at NAS and that it usually means dCS comes along too, that might take down some of the bigger names from the Whittlebury show. OTOH, it might mean putting yet more emphasis on the dealer side of things, with the likes of The Right Note and Studio AV filling in the gaps.

Time will tell...

Alan Sircom

16-05-2013, 16:07

+1. I dislike such censorship. Quite simply, if the 'product' is good, then it should be open to scrutiny.

However, I can't see how they are going to enforce such a thing effectively, given how small mobile phones (with cameras) are these days. What are they going to do, strip-search people? :eek: :eyebrows:

And how will they know who is a "forum scribe", or not, unless they're blatantly advertising the fact? It's bollocks.

Marco.

'Forum scribe' is my quickly-invented term to differentiate someone writing on a forum, to someone who's specifically writing on a blog or for a website or magazine. It's not my most elegant term.

In answer to your question, I don't know. The venue is inaccessible to anyone without transport, and I've been semi-reliably informed that was a deliberate action to filter the quality of people attending the show. There is also rumour of a dress code (although I'm not sure if that is limited to the demonstrators) and even of a door policy!

And I guess the show could run a strict 'no photos' policy, although policing that would be difficult...

User211

16-05-2013, 17:54

Alan Sircom

16-05-2013, 18:12

"It's worth noting that we had this level of show for many years"

Out of curiousity, when did we, Alan? Certainly not since I have been going to shows, and I have been going for some time. Heathrow, in the time I went there, was certainly no where near Munich. Munich is colossal and almost unbelievably high-end.

Anyway, HFN, whilst it is my favourite mag, needs to live with the times. These days there's no excuse not to have a full featured website hosting videos of kit with "maker" interviews, visits to factories, music downloads etc etc. Not seal itself off, trying to pretend the internet doesn't exist, and that any independent blogger/chap with a camera is an alien of some sort!:)

The market was very different 20 or so years ago. The Hi-Fi News show at the Heathrow Penta (now the Renaissance) was second only to CES in Chicago in terms of importance on the world-wide stage. It wasn't as big as Munich today, but neither was the overall number of brands, and the top end of the high-end was really only limited to a tiny handful of brands, unlike today.

The full-featured website does cost a lot to host, and doesn't get the ROI. We looked into video hosting and the costs were prohibitive compared to the increased amount of hits we'd get from it. You only have to look at how many hits legitimately hi-fi related videos on YouTube get, to see how the numbers don't stack up. And as to hosting music downloads... can. worms. open; you have hot and cold running lawyers constantly ensuring you are not breaking any international licensing agreements, which means you have a whole lot of 'not in this region' pages on the site (which upsets more people than you gain from hosting the music) and criticism from all and sundry for not hosting the right music/taking money from legitimate music download sites/being in the pay of the record companies, etc, etc, etc. All for increased hosting and site management costs. We do review republications, news, some blogging, show reports, factory visits and the rest (we need music reviews, but that was going to cost too much to activate for any returns, so it remains 'on hold' for a while), but it's a lot of work for not a lot of extra added, IMO.

User211

16-05-2013, 18:27

I thought you were endeavoring to suggest that Heathrow was once the same as Munich is now, which of course I know it never was. But your post makes it clear what you meant.

Bit surprised about hosting videos being expensive, TBH. Videos are just disk space, and that isn't expensive these days - indeed it is free on YouTube. Unless of course your site is hosted by a thrid party that is creating the website & content for you. In which case...

WRT music I didn't really mean mainstream music, just your usual audiophile stuff and the sort of thing that used to come quite frequently on cover discs.

Thanks anyway, you answered my main question. And you are right, and I was probably wrong - people just aren't into hi-fi videos, in general. I am, but people aren't!:D

Spectral Morn

16-05-2013, 19:03

I don't think it's being afraid of anything. It's possibly an attempt to keep things proprietary. Under Paul's editorship, HFN has long been about exclusives. It would be a logical extension of that demand for exclusivity to include HFN's own show.

Whether it affects the National Audio Show remains to be seen. Absolute Sound has not been at the NAS for some years, but Kog, Symmetry and (AFAIK) NuNu have been regular fixtures. Given Kog's propensity to take big rooms at NAS and that it usually means dCS comes along too, that might take down some of the bigger names from the Whittlebury show. OTOH, it might mean putting yet more emphasis on the dealer side of things, with the likes of The Right Note and Studio AV filling in the gaps.

Time will tell...

Hi Alan

It had momentarily slipped my mind of Mr Millers propensity for such things, 'The exclusive', being honest though, in this day and age the currency of such things is fairly limited in my opinion.

Certainly if KOG, Nu Nu (maybe Tony might like to comment - though he hasn't done NAS in awhile) and Symmetry switch shows - what you seem to be suggesting - it will reduce NAS a fair bit and while The Right Note and Studio AV might along with Jordan fill the reduced rooms it will damage NAS badly.

However this 'exclusive' show will have the potential to drive a wedge into the entire UK audio enthusiasts base, splitting it and discarding what I would consider an important part. I have been aware of a growing annoyance among some show exhibitors of the plastic bag carrying audio show attendees, that they don't buy anything at the show and are unlikely to be future customers (NAS isn't really a selling show as such) but an assumption is being made here - by some, wrongly I think - that those that attend who fill this description don't ever buy at all from dealers or aspire to buy at a future time the highend items being exhibited.

Many purchasers of high end gear have risen from buying budget to mid market kit and to exclude them, to make a show an ubber exclusive event only for the rich, is in my view a serious mistake - surely the key to making audio mainstream is to open the doors and make it for all, accessible not closed off and exclusive. One of the great bits of last years NAS was the headzones (I see the HiFi News Show is nicking this idea) rooms and the way they were attended by the young new blood, what we all need to grow the industry.

When I worked in the Brown Goods trade a colleague passed a farmer onto me - dressed in dirty work clothes and smelling - because he could not be bothered, by the end of the night I had taken well over £4000 from him all cash by the way. So would he be excluded from this event? The point I am making here is that one should never judge books by their covers.

I think this is a bad and narrow minded show model, and frankly Alan if what you say is true, then I think all audio enthusiasts should boycott this show on a matter of principle, as making highend audio exclusive, not inclusive, not viewable or able to be heard in a UK show is a retrograde step in my opinion.

Having to wear a shirt and tie to hear audio - bloody hell!!!!!! and a dresscode usually means that sort of thing - can't recall seeing many football tops at the last NAS show. I do think that exhibitors should look good, be professional, have neat well set up rooms with everything labelled and priced, so certainly standards can be raised in that area. My experience at most shows are that these are common areas exhibitors fail at and something I bang my own particular drum about.

If this all true, then shame on HiFi News.

Regards Neil

Marco

16-05-2013, 19:35

Hi Alan,

'Forum scribe' is my quickly-invented term to differentiate someone writing on a forum, to someone who's specifically writing on a blog or for a website or magazine. It's not my most elegant term.

In answer to your question, I don't know. The venue is inaccessible to anyone without transport, and I've been semi-reliably informed that was a deliberate action to filter the quality of people attending the show. There is also rumour of a dress code (although I'm not sure if that is limited to the demonstrators) and even of a door policy!

And I guess the show could run a strict 'no photos' policy, although policing that would be difficult...

Thanks for your reply. Dress code? Lol, how quaintly ridiculous :eyebrows:

I've been semi-reliably informed that was a deliberate action to filter the quality of people attending the show.

One wonders what criteria will be used to determine said "quality"? Perhaps it's those with more money than sense? It all sounds rather snobbish and elitist, to me, as indeed was intimated by Justin. That type of 'exclusivity', we don't need.

There appears to be this feeling amongst the audio press that forums are 'the enemy', and therefore one must disassociate oneself from them at all costs.... Now, I have some sympathy with that view, given the idiots who populate some audio forums, and the prejudiced bile that they spout from the safety of their keyboards, under the guise of a pseudonym, but in reality they are largely a minority, albeit a vocal one.

The better forums are populated, in the main, by friendly and knowledgeable enthusiasts, keen to advance the success of our hobby, and crucially, ensure its longevity, together with furthering a love of listening to recorded music at its best, and so I would like to think that, far from being the enemy, they/we are instead, kindred spirits. That is certainly the situation here on AoS.

Therefore, rather than seeking to alienate "forum scribes" from their hi-fi show, HFN should be welcoming the best ones (those with constructive agendas) with open arms and working TOGETHER with them to help keep high-end audio alive, for genuine enthusiasts, and to ensure that it has a future for our upcoming generations. Snobbery and elitism are precisely what has killed/is killing our hobby.

Frankly, this 'them and us' attitude, which currently exists, is doing neither of us any favours!

I think that certain factions of the hi-fi press need to wise-up, acknowledge the sentiments I've expressed, and accept that forums are here to stay; not only that, but that they represent the future, existing as the most appropriate and rewarding vehicle for genuine audio enthusiasts to further their interests in this hobby and enrich their love of music, long after the final examples of paper media, from the 'old days', have become landfill and its elitist and insular thinking 'scribes' are pushing up the daisies...

Marco.

Spectral Morn

16-05-2013, 19:39

Therefore, rather than seeking to alienate "forum scribes" from their hi-fi show, HFN should be welcoming the best ones (those with constructive agendas) with open arms and working TOGETHER with them to help keep high-end audio alive, for genuine enthusiasts, and to ensure that it has a future for our upcoming generations. Snobbery and elitism are precisely what has killed/is killing our hobby.

Frankly, this 'them and us' attitude, which currently exists, is doing neither of us any favours!

Marco.

I agree with the above totally.

Regards Neil

Marco

17-05-2013, 06:22

Many purchasers of high end gear have risen from buying budget to mid market kit and to exclude them, to make a show an ubber exclusive event only for the rich, is in my view a serious mistake - surely the key to making audio mainstream is to open the doors and make it for all, accessible not closed off and exclusive. One of the great bits of last years NAS was the headzones (I see the HiFi News Show is nicking this idea) rooms and the way they were attended by the young new blood, what we all need to grow the industry.

Hear, hear! :clap:

We need more inclusivity, not exclusivity, and an injection of young blood into this hobby, and most importantly, a ridding of the stuffy old farts that infect high-end audio with their draconian values.

Marco.

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 09:03

Hear, hear! :clap:

We need more inclusivity, not exclusivity, and an injection of young blood into this hobby, and most importantly, a ridding of the stuffy old farts that infect high-end audio with their draconian values.

Marco.

Yes, although (and I am aware this is tantamount to derailing this thread and possibly worth taking on to another separate thread in its own right) there is a sense of fairly severe disconnect between the enthusiasts, which seems to cut at around 40 or so.

Whatever we try to do to reach most of the 'young blood' market, they are largely both uninterested and disinterested in the stuff we do. That's a fairly unassailable obstacle. The audio enthusiast addiction still runs in that young blood, but it mostly looks toward headphones for its enthusiasm fix. And the crossover from headphones to loudspeakers is as small as the crossover from loudspeakers to headphones was for their parent's generation. Yes, there are always exceptions, just as there were people spending more on Jecklins and Stax than they did on amplifiers and speakers when I was selling the stuff in the late 1980s, but as enthusiasts they are in the minority now.

This affects all of us. With the greatest respect I can muster in saying this, Head-Fi receives more new members in the average week than most hi-fi forums have members. Headphone reviews on our site receive a disproportionately high hit rate, relative to the expressed lack of interest from the audiophile readers. But there is a 'never the twain' problem; we don't do enough headphones to regularly attract those readers because if we do we lose a significant proportion of our core readers, but we're not wholly convinced the headphone enthusiasts have any kind of loyalty to regular reading to build a new core readership.

People still buy hi-fi though, but they aren't likely to become the type who can be converted to the cause. In the UK, for example, they buy things like Naim UnitiQutes and PMC Twenty loudspeakers. They buy them because they fit their profile - now called 'Technical Middle Class' - who want something good that is 'techy' but isn't too fussy and looks pretty cool, and these combos hit the spot. I know retailers in the UK who have almost forgotten there are any other products in the store, because they don't get call for them. This is not built on "I saw a review in a magazine", nor is it even "I went on a forum"... it's spread by word of mouth (actually, word of Facebook). They have no desire to engage with audio any more than the purchase and installation of the product.

As to the high-end and its inherent snootiness, stuffiness and its population of ageing and spoilt baby boomers with a vastly overinflated sense of their own entitlement, based on still having an income to dispose of... that's the one gap that still remains open to many retailers and almost all of the magazines, because it's the last refuge of the traditional audio enthusiasts. The difficulty there is you end up dancing to the tune of the enthusiasts, even if that tune is different to the one you should be dancing to in order to help rebuild the industry.

Mr. C

17-05-2013, 09:31

I heard that show is being sponsored. by Ricardo, any truth in that Alan.
Kr Keith.

Interesting thoughts Keith, would you care to elaborate on this?

Macca

17-05-2013, 09:40

Mr. C

17-05-2013, 09:42

Hi Alan

It had momentarily slipped my mind of Mr Millers propensity for such things, 'The exclusive', being honest though, in this day and age the currency of such things is fairly limited in my opinion.

Certainly if KOG, Nu Nu (maybe Tony might like to comment - though he hasn't done NAS in awhile) and Symmetry switch shows - what you seem to be suggesting - it will reduce NAS a fair bit and while The Right Note and Studio AV might along with Jordan fill the reduced rooms it will damage NAS badly.

Regards Neil

Hi Neil

NuNu Distribution has not exhibited at NAS since 2010, for various reasons.

They have been some fair points raised about this perhaps you should address them to the person concerned.

jandl100

17-05-2013, 09:48

I have my own theory as to how hi-fi could become revitalised (in the UK) but probably a bit OT to post it here.

Ooo - go on. Do tell. :)

Macca

17-05-2013, 09:57

Ooo - go on. Do tell. :)

I'll start a thread - but after breakfast :eyebrows:

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 10:04

Strange that on a thread about an enourmous high end show there are many comments about how the industry is 'dying'.

I have some old copies of HFW from the early nineties and they have a number of editorials about how the industry is dying - that is twenty years ago now and it is still here!

Those in the press think it is dying because they are selling less magazines. The dealers think it is dying because fewer people are walking into their shops and buying.

Is it not the case that the only people who do think the industry is dying are those making a living from it? The amount of kit sold on eBay alone surely contradicts that belief. I think it is more a case of the dealers and the (printed) literature gradually being evolved out of the hi-fi gene pool.

I have my own theory as to how hi-fi could become revitalised (in the UK) but probably a bit OT to post it here.

Actually, I don't think the industry is dying, it is changing. It has always been changing to a certain extent, but it has changed more significantly and more rapidly since the turn of the century.

It's changing because different parts of the world are now dictating what does and does not sell in audio. It's changing because the way we get our music has changed, changed and changed again. And it's changing because the people we tried and failed to reach actually made their own path to good audio through headphones.

However, I don't think that judging the industry by eBay trades is a good arbiter of anything apart from the second hand world. First, you need to differentiate how many things are advertised against how many of those things are actually sold. Secondly, it gives you at best an understanding of what happened (rather than what's happening) and lastly, unlike eBay, the world is not full of six year old Mondeos with 250,000 miles on the clock.

However, if it were as you indicate, then the audio world would be in a far worse place than anyone imagines. Audio cannot survive simply on its past glories; it needs regular refreshing with new people and new products to continue. If it simply went away, those trying to buy hi-fi would find their products suddenly became too expensive to afford as they were snapped up by collectors (this has already happened with Quad IIs). There has been a downturn and the industry has changed with that. It's starting to improve at last and the industry will change with that too. It's like any business, really, only with more people acting like they are bit part characters in a P G Wodehouse novel.

Reffc

17-05-2013, 10:05

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your reply. Dress code? Lol, how quaintly ridiculous :eyebrows:

One wonders what criteria will be used to determine said "quality"? Perhaps it's those with more money than sense? It all sounds rather snobbish and elitist, to me, as indeed was intimated by Justin. That type of 'exclusivity', we don't need.

There appears to be this feeling amongst the audio press that forums are 'the enemy', and therefore one must disassociate oneself from them at all costs.... Now, I have some sympathy with that view, given the idiots who populate some audio forums, and the prejudiced bile that they spout from the safety of their keyboards, under the guise of a pseudonym, but in reality they are largely a minority, albeit a vocal one.

The better forums are populated, in the main, by friendly and knowledgeable enthusiasts, keen to advance the success of our hobby, and crucially, ensure its longevity, together with furthering a love of listening to recorded music at its best, and so I would like to think that, far from being the enemy, they/we are instead, kindred spirits. That is certainly the situation here on AoS.

Therefore, rather than seeking to alienate "forum scribes" from their hi-fi show, HFN should be welcoming the best ones (those with constructive agendas) with open arms and working TOGETHER with them to help keep high-end audio alive, for genuine enthusiasts, and to ensure that it has a future for our upcoming generations. Snobbery and elitism are precisely what has killed/is killing our hobby.

Frankly, this 'them and us' attitude, which currently exists, is doing neither of us any favours!

I think that certain factions of the hi-fi press need to wise-up, acknowledge the sentiments I've expressed, and accept that forums are here to stay; not only that, but that they represent the future, existing as the most appropriate and rewarding vehicle for genuine audio enthusiasts to further their interests in this hobby and enrich their love of music, long after the final examples of paper media, from the 'old days', have become landfill and its elitist and insular thinking 'scribes' are pushing up the daisies...

Marco.

:exactly:

Good posting Marco.

There seems to be a lot of talk about "the industry dying" and an assumption that everyone under the pension age listens to i-pods on headphones. I'd love to know what conclusive research there is for this. I remember almost 30 odd years ago as a student that most of my peers had Walkmans or similar and we were branded the "headphone" generation back then but those of us with a keen interest in hifi as well as music were soon assembling our own used systems. These probably sounded pretty awful in reality but to us they were pure magic. I see a lot of evidence that young people are doing exactly the same today albeit the average age has probably shifted up a little.

What I see when I look around today is not a dying industry at all. That is an over-hyped statement. It is certainly a changing industry but it is growing too! Munic demonstrates the sheer variety available, most especially in the so called "high end" and this would not be sustainable groowth if the demand was not there, so the demand must be there. There's also a true plethora of choice in the mid and budget ranges too and again, that would not be the case if there was no demand. Part of me sometimes wonders if the industry is it's own worst enemy in trying to steer opinion away from what people really want or what they expect in favour of more shady business dealings steering supply.

In terms of being inclusive, I guess all enthusiasts have a part to play. If we all just introduced or encouraged several people we know who might have a fleeting interest, that would do more good than any number of magazines starting up. I had a few people in this week interested in the Fidelio Loudspeakers, one of whom was just starting on his hifi journey in his late 20's. The level of interest at all generations seems to be there and those with most influence are to my mind seasoned enthusiasts, not the hifi press.

As for the comments RE HFN, I sincerely hope that this isn't the case as the industry survives because of enthusiasts from all walks, not in spite of them. The days of the importance of the exclusive in the hifi press are long gone. The internet has seen to that.

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 10:27

:exactly:

Good posting Marco.

There seems to be a lot of talk about "the industry dying" and an assumption that everyone under the pension age listens to i-pods on headphones. I'd love to know what conclusive research there is for this. I remember almost 30 odd years ago as a student that most of my peers had Walkmans or similar and we were branded the "headphone" generation back then but those of us with a keen interest in hifi as well as music were soon assembling our own used systems. These probably sounded pretty awful in reality but to us they were pure magic. I see a lot of evidence that young people are doing exactly the same today albeit the average age has probably shifted up a little.

What I see when I look around today is not a dying industry at all. That is an over-hyped statement. It is certainly a changing industry but it is growing too! Munic demonstrates the sheer variety available, most especially in the so called "high end" and this would not be sustainable groowth if the demand was not there, so the demand must be there. There's also a true plethora of choice in the mid and budget ranges too and again, that would not be the case if there was no demand. Part of me sometimes wonders if the industry is it's own worst enemy in trying to steer opinion away from what people really want or what they expect in favour of more shady business dealings steering supply.

In terms of being inclusive, I guess all enthusiasts have a part to play. If we all just introduced or encouraged several people we know who might have a fleeting interest, that would do more good than any number of magazines starting up. I had a few people in this week interested in the Fidelio Loudspeakers, one of whom was just starting on his hifi journey in his late 20's. The level of interest at all generations seems to be there and those with most influence are to my mind seasoned enthusiasts, not the hifi press.

As for the comments RE HFN, I sincerely hope that this isn't the case as the industry survives because of enthusiasts from all walks, not in spite of them. The days of the importance of the exclusive in the hifi press are long gone. The internet has seen to that.

Actually, the oddest thing here is that I've just checked back through all 12 pages of this thread and the first person to say "the industry is dying" was Macca about 40 minutes ago. About 110 of the other 112 posts say nothing of the sort.

The documentation for the change in the market toward headphones lies in the GfK statistics and the relative site stats of anyone who has feet in both camps. The demographic information comes largely from surveys performed by sites who have feet in both camps. Although I don't think anyone's saying the changeover is an exclusive one (as in there will always be people at any age buying loudspeakers or headphones, or loudspeakers and headphones), the information is both out there and uncontentious.

There is an over-reaction to this demographic change. Even in the times of the greatest interest in audio, few buyers were in the early 20s and typically the first purchase of 'proper' hi-fi happened sometime around 28-35. Trying to entice 20-year olds into hi-fi is an idiotic over-reaction to the fact that the first purchase of 'proper' hi-fi today is often made by someone in their early-mid 40s.

Alex_UK

17-05-2013, 10:45

There is an over-reaction to this demographic change. Even in the times of the greatest interest in audio, few buyers were in the early 20s and typically the first purchase of 'proper' hi-fi happened sometime around 28-35. Trying to entice 20-year olds into hi-fi is an idiotic over-reaction to the fact that the first purchase of 'proper' hi-fi today is often made by someone in their early-mid 40s.

Very true - and how many young enthusiasts end up putting it all away when they have kids? I suspect rather a lot, as we often see from "Welcome" posts here.

Macca

17-05-2013, 10:51

Actually, the oddest thing here is that I've just checked back through all 12 pages of this thread and the first person to say "the industry is dying" was Macca about 40 minutes ago. About 110 of the other 112 posts say nothing of the sort.

.

What about your post bemoaning the fact that the young blood are not interested in anything except headphones(the bit I have put in bold at the end in particular):

Whatever we try to do to reach most of the 'young blood' market, they are largely both uninterested and disinterested in the stuff we do. That's a fairly unassailable obstacle. The audio enthusiast addiction still runs in that young blood, but it mostly looks toward headphones for its enthusiasm fix. And the crossover from headphones to loudspeakers is as small as the crossover from loudspeakers to headphones was for their parent's generation. Yes, there are always exceptions, just as there were people spending more on Jecklins and Stax than they did on amplifiers and speakers when I was selling the stuff in the late 1980s, but as enthusiasts they are in the minority now.

This affects all of us. With the greatest respect I can muster in saying this, Head-Fi receives more new members in the average week than most hi-fi forums have members. Headphone reviews on our site receive a disproportionately high hit rate, relative to the expressed lack of interest from the audiophile readers. But there is a 'never the twain' problem; we don't do enough headphones to regularly attract those readers because if we do we lose a significant proportion of our core readers, but we're not wholly convinced the headphone enthusiasts have any kind of loyalty to regular reading to build a new core readership.

People still buy hi-fi though, but they aren't likely to become the type who can be converted to the cause. In the UK, for example, they buy things like Naim UnitiQutes and PMC Twenty loudspeakers. They buy them because they fit their profile - now called 'Technical Middle Class' - who want something good that is 'techy' but isn't too fussy and looks pretty cool, and these combos hit the spot. I know retailers in the UK who have almost forgotten there are any other products in the store, because they don't get call for them. This is not built on "I saw a review in a magazine", nor is it even "I went on a forum"... it's spread by word of mouth (actually, word of Facebook). They have no desire to engage with audio any more than the purchase and installation of the product.

As to the high-end and its inherent snootiness, stuffiness and its population of ageing and spoilt baby boomers with a vastly overinflated sense of their own entitlement, based on still having an income to dispose of... that's the one gap that still remains open to many retailers and almost all of the magazines, because it's the last refuge of the traditional audio enthusiasts. The difficulty there is you end up dancing to the tune of the enthusiasts, even if that tune is different to the one you should be dancing to in order to help rebuild the industry

Marco

17-05-2013, 11:09

Very true - and how many young enthusiasts end up putting it all away when they have kids? I suspect rather a lot, as we often see from "Welcome" posts here.

True, but that's something I'll never understand (and I don't believe that you need kids to do so either). Providing that money isn't the issue, I simply cannot see any justifiable reason why, with some give and take in a relationship, both the hi-fi and kids can't co-exist in harmony.

I admire those people (much like you) who manage to combine their love of music and hi-fi, with bringing up a young family, rather than those who meekly sell all their treasured gear, simply because the 'she' in the relationship dictates that's what's now necessary!! :rolleyes:

Marco.

Reffc

17-05-2013, 11:13

Actually, the oddest thing here is that I've just checked back through all 12 pages of this thread and the first person to say "the industry is dying" was Macca about 40 minutes ago. About 110 of the other 112 posts say nothing of the sort.

The documentation for the change in the market toward headphones lies in the GfK statistics and the relative site stats of anyone who has feet in both camps. The demographic information comes largely from surveys performed by sites who have feet in both camps. Although I don't think anyone's saying the changeover is an exclusive one (as in there will always be people at any age buying loudspeakers or headphones, or loudspeakers and headphones), the information is both out there and uncontentious.

There is an over-reaction to this demographic change. Even in the times of the greatest interest in audio, few buyers were in the early 20s and typically the first purchase of 'proper' hi-fi happened sometime around 28-35. Trying to entice 20-year olds into hi-fi is an idiotic over-reaction to the fact that the first purchase of 'proper' hi-fi today is often made by someone in their early-mid 40s.

What's idiotic about encouraging younger people who show an interest? I know a great many people who started off in their early 20's which used to seem the norm for people getting interested in music and hifi together. It's true that the higher end of the market is really where people in their 40's or older with greater disposable income perhaps spend more than younger folk, but there's plenty on their 20's and 30's who listen to modest systems (still "hifi") because they enjoy music. The propensity towards high end (in price) as being the only thing to be taken seriously is a little worrying. It's where a lot of profit is which is one reason it's often pushed so hard.

The comment about a dying industry is more the attitude that only older people are interested, not necessarily what was said, but the implications which are very commonly expressed in various ways.

Whatever the debate, surely it's unhelpful to exclude encouragement or assistance to anyone interested?

Macca

17-05-2013, 11:14

Everyone I know with hi-fi and young children has their speaker cones and tweeters pushed in. My suggested solution is to keep the hi-fi in a locked room and only allow the youngsters in under adult supervison but this suggestion does not seem to go down well for some reason. It seems to be the norm these days for children to be allowed to wander the house at will, demolishing and vandalising as they go, lest they feel repressed in some way.

Spectral Morn

17-05-2013, 11:19

Hi Neil

NuNu Distribution has not exhibited at NAS since 2010, for various reasons.

They have been some fair points raised about this perhaps you should address them to the person concerned.

Hi Tony hope you are keeping well.

If I though Paul would be interested in them I would but everything I have been told over the years about Paul suggests he would not be interested. However I am well aware I have never met the man, so I have no first hand knowledge of him - so it might be worth ago.

I am well aware that Nu Nu hasn't and I am aware of some of those reasons which are fair enough and I am certainly not having ago at anyone for exhibiting at this new show - or thinking of doing so - which may suit their particular business model and customer demographic better than NAS but I am having ago at HiFi News the organisers.

My indignation and that of others is over it being a closed exclusive audio show that by the sounds of it has been designed to keep out, discourage from attending a fair proportion of the audio enthusiasts who normally go to shows and frequent forums.

Now if a number of dealers or distributors/manufacturers want to organise a closed, by invite only event then that's up to them but HiFi News has announced this in public the way any other show has been and the strong suggestion on this thread (not confirmed by HiFi News yet) is it will be a closed house to many of those who might like to attend and that is frankly not a good thing for the promotion of audio in the UK - in my view.

Regards Neil

Marco

17-05-2013, 11:19

Macca

17-05-2013, 11:22

.

There is an over-reaction to this demographic change. Even in the times of the greatest interest in audio, few buyers were in the early 20s and typically the first purchase of 'proper' hi-fi happened sometime around 28-35. Trying to entice 20-year olds into hi-fi is an idiotic over-reaction to the fact that the first purchase of 'proper' hi-fi today is often made by someone in their early-mid 40s.

It may be your definition of proper hi-fi is different to mine but when I was 20 I had a seperates system and so did a fair number if my peers at University. No doubt most of them, like me, have continued in the hobby from there and have bought a lot of product over the years. Nobody discovers music in their thirties, it is something you either develop a love of at a much earlier age or you don't. Of those that do a percentage will also develop a love of quality replay of said music. Who was it who said 'get them whilst they're young'? They were right, I think.

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 11:38

What about your post bemoaning the fact that the young blood are not interested in anything except headphones(the bit I have put in bold at the end in particular):

Whatever we try to do to reach most of the 'young blood' market, they are largely both uninterested and disinterested in the stuff we do. That's a fairly unassailable obstacle. The audio enthusiast addiction still runs in that young blood, but it mostly looks toward headphones for its enthusiasm fix. And the crossover from headphones to loudspeakers is as small as the crossover from loudspeakers to headphones was for their parent's generation. Yes, there are always exceptions, just as there were people spending more on Jecklins and Stax than they did on amplifiers and speakers when I was selling the stuff in the late 1980s, but as enthusiasts they are in the minority now.

This affects all of us. With the greatest respect I can muster in saying this, Head-Fi receives more new members in the average week than most hi-fi forums have members. Headphone reviews on our site receive a disproportionately high hit rate, relative to the expressed lack of interest from the audiophile readers. But there is a 'never the twain' problem; we don't do enough headphones to regularly attract those readers because if we do we lose a significant proportion of our core readers, but we're not wholly convinced the headphone enthusiasts have any kind of loyalty to regular reading to build a new core readership.

People still buy hi-fi though, but they aren't likely to become the type who can be converted to the cause. In the UK, for example, they buy things like Naim UnitiQutes and PMC Twenty loudspeakers. They buy them because they fit their profile - now called 'Technical Middle Class' - who want something good that is 'techy' but isn't too fussy and looks pretty cool, and these combos hit the spot. I know retailers in the UK who have almost forgotten there are any other products in the store, because they don't get call for them. This is not built on "I saw a review in a magazine", nor is it even "I went on a forum"... it's spread by word of mouth (actually, word of Facebook). They have no desire to engage with audio any more than the purchase and installation of the product.

As to the high-end and its inherent snootiness, stuffiness and its population of ageing and spoilt baby boomers with a vastly overinflated sense of their own entitlement, based on still having an income to dispose of... that's the one gap that still remains open to many retailers and almost all of the magazines, because it's the last refuge of the traditional audio enthusiasts. The difficulty there is you end up dancing to the tune of the enthusiasts, even if that tune is different to the one you should be dancing to in order to help rebuild the industry

We've had a decade of major change, topped off with a global recession that could have wiped out this industry, but didn't. That we need to take stock and build audio back up is a very different picture from saying it's dying.

But the fact remains that what the industry needs to set itself on the right path is seemingly at odds with what many of its existing enthusiasts want, and that causes clashes.

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 11:42

What's idiotic about encouraging younger people who show an interest? I know a great many people who started off in their early 20's which used to seem the norm for people getting interested in music and hifi together. It's true that the higher end of the market is really where people in their 40's or older with greater disposable income perhaps spend more than younger folk, but there's plenty on their 20's and 30's who listen to modest systems (still "hifi") because they enjoy music. The propensity towards high end (in price) as being the only thing to be taken seriously is a little worrying. It's where a lot of profit is which is one reason it's often pushed so hard.

The comment about a dying industry is more the attitude that only older people are interested, not necessarily what was said, but the implications which are very commonly expressed in various ways.

Whatever the debate, surely it's unhelpful to exclude encouragement or assistance to anyone interested?

Spark enthusiasm in the early 20s... yes, of course. Trying to sell them equipment at that time, forget it. Unlike our generation, they are saddled with debt the moment they leave the nest, especially if they are at university. If you think the sky is falling because there aren't enough 20 year olds buying hi-fi (as many in this business seem to imply), you are deluding yourself.

Marco

17-05-2013, 11:46

But the fact remains that what the industry needs to set itself on the right path is seemingly at odds with what many of its existing enthusiasts want, and that causes clashes.

That's a rather sorry situation, then, Alan, and somewhat stupid, too... Who exactly gets to decide what the industry needs, and what is their judgement criteria?

My view is that the people (the genuine enthusiasts) should have more of a say, rather than the industry pandering to the elitist desires of the 'key-jangling' fraternity, simply to line the pockets of those who are well-placed to benefit financially, while the going is still good, because let's face it, that's what's REALLY happening here!

Marco.

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 11:58

I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying, Martin.

Alan, I can assure you that youngsters today don't solely listen to music on headphones. The majority may do, but as 'high-end' audio enthusiasts, we're not interested in the majority, or what 'Joe Public' buys; we're interested in 'grooming' (for want of a better word), the discerning ones, who care about the quality of the sound of their favourite music, and the equipment that they use, and using them to replace us in the future.

Just go to some of the popular music downloading sites, and read the feedback of the 17-21 year olds there, who are lovin' listening to their "vinyls" on what would most certainly be considered as 'proper' hi-fi systems! ;)

We need to capture and educate the wheat from the crop, not the chaff.... The principles behind the snooty HFN show are completely at odds with us achieving that aim.

Marco.

I both agree and disagree with this.

1. I've never said the switch to headphones was an exclusive thing. Just a significant thing. Significant enough that a £10m headphone market 12 years ago is a £200m market today and a £100m audio market 12 years ago is closer to about £40m now. But there are a lot of people buying audio at all prices and all ages.

2. The head-fi community takes its sound quality EXCEPTIONALLY seriously. The difficulty for traditional audio is they take it so seriously they don't have enough interest left to spare on what's taken seriously here. And they take it seriously because they prefer the sound quality from headphones over that from loudspeakers. And no, that is not a position based on ignorance of what good loudspeakers can do.

3. Yes, the renewed interest in vinyl is excellent and bodes well for the future, but we'll need to see whether it's a fad or a genuine return to interest in music on vinyl. There seems to be some rose-tinted arguments taking place about vinyl's rebirth and its sustainability that don't seem to be built on a whole lot of solid foundation. So far, it seems very much in lock-step with the hipster movement and that looks set to suffer a dose of heavy irony any day now.

Reffc

17-05-2013, 12:07

Spark enthusiasm in the early 20s... yes, of course. Trying to sell them equipment at that time, forget it. Unlike our generation, they are saddled with debt the moment they leave the nest, especially if they are at university. If you think the sky is falling because there aren't enough 20 year olds buying hi-fi (as many in this business seem to imply), you are deluding yourself.

Which is precisely where I was coming from. If you note from what was said previously, I mentioned that in our 20's my peers and I built used systems because just as now, in your 20's you don't have the income to do anything else unless you're lucky. No-one said anything about the sky falling because youngsters aren't buying hifi...what a strange notion. I agree with you here because it is delusional to suggest that because lots of 20 year olds aren't buying hifi, the industry is suffering.

Having said that, it's very true that there's never been such choice for very listenable budget systems and in general, affordable access to music has never been so reachable. MP3 players for under £20, inexpensive T-amps etc etc, and there's always second hand separates for very little. If someone in their 20's wants music, most have the means to access it despite student loans and debt. Those circumstances don't seem to have stopped them drinking and partying;)

Macca

17-05-2013, 12:19

Spark enthusiasm in the early 20s... yes, of course. Trying to sell them equipment at that time, forget it. Unlike our generation, they are saddled with debt the moment they leave the nest, especially if they are at university. If you think the sky is falling because there aren't enough 20 year olds buying hi-fi (as many in this business seem to imply), you are deluding yourself.

How do you spark their enthusiasm without selling to them? It seems you are suggesting that reading about it is enough and that 20 years on with their debts paid and some cash in their pockets they will suddenly remember that they can buy a hi-fi to replace their I-pod dock. The two problems with interesting anyone who already likes music in pursuing quality replay are

1) It's perceived as very expensive
2) It's thought that you need golden ears to appreciate the difference

I'm sure I'm not alone here in having, over the years, debunked these two myths for a fair number of people in fairly simple fashion:

1) The system(s) they heard (mine) were not expensive
2) They could appreciate the difference

They all went on to purchase high fi systems that were either cheap, new components or used bargains or a combo of both.

The two main obstacles to this approach:

1) magazines review too much expensive gear giving the impression that a quality sound is outside what potential enthusiasts can afford.
2) Both forums and magazines reinforce the view that 'more expensive equals better'

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 12:19

That's a rather sorry situation, then, Alan, and somewhat stupid, too... Who exactly gets to decide what the industry needs, and what is their judgement criteria?

My view is that the people (the genuine enthusiasts) should have more of a say, rather than the industry pandering to the elitist desires of the 'key-jangling' fraternity, simply to line the pockets of those who are well-placed to benefit financially, while the going is still good, because let's face it, that's what's REALLY happening here!

Marco.

The buying public is ultimately the arbiter of what hi-fi will look like in five, ten or fifty years time. And that's the problem many face.

Perhaps Naim Audio is the perfect example of this. A lot of Naim's market today is Uniti products - I think it represents something like a third of its market, makes up a significant proportion of its growth, and represents the bulk of its sales to millennials and Gen X'ers. However, a fair proportion of Naim's existing boomer client base would like the company to stop faffing around with streamers and concentrate on making products that are variations on the products that these clients already own.

So, if it panders to the existing clientele too much, at best sales level off, and probably drop as it misses out on its new market opportunities. But if it concentrates too much on the new market, the old clientele go elsewhere, because they feel the company doesn't care for them any more.

Whether that matters depends on if the old clientele are still buying equipment or are just a legacy.

Macca

17-05-2013, 12:32

Having said that, it's very true that there's never been such choice for very listenable budget systems and in general, affordable access to music has never been so reachable. MP3 players for under £20, inexpensive T-amps etc etc, and there's always second hand separates for very little. If someone in their 20's wants music, most have the means to access it despite student loans and debt. Those circumstances don't seem to have stopped them drinking and partying;)

It's not that they don't have the means to access it - it's that they do not have the knowledge to access it. What's required is the transfer of that knowledge. I recall a bloke who came round to plaster the hallway of the rented house I was living in. I was playing some music, he came into the room and says 'that sounds brilliant'. He had a look at my kit, 'these speakers are really good, what did they cost?' Well it was £80 brand new including the stands. He was amazed - 'that's so cheap!' Next time I saw him he advised me that he had put a little system of his own together for about £200 (Armstrong amp IIRC) and was revisiting his Van Halen collection (and his youth) with great joy.

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 12:41

How do you spark their enthusiasm without selling to them? It seems you are suggesting that reading about it is enough and that 20 years on with their debts paid and some cash in their pockets they will suddenly remember that they can buy a hi-fi to replace their I-pod dock. The two problems with interesting anyone who already likes music in pursuing quality replay are

1) It's perceived as very expensive
2) It's thought that you need golden ears to appreciate the difference

I'm sure I'm not alone here in having, over the years, debunked these two myths for a fair number of people in fairly simple fashion:

1) The system(s) they heard (mine) were not expensive
2) They could appreciate the difference

They all went on to purchase high fi systems that were either cheap, new components or used bargains or a combo of both.

The two main obstacles to this approach:

1) magazines review too much expensive gear giving the impression that a quality sound is outside what potential enthusiasts can afford.
2) Both forums and magazines reinforce the view that 'more expensive equals better'

Again this comes down to niche. Magazines review expensive gear because when we review a lot of inexpensive gear, the magazine's sales tank that month. The people who still read hi-fi magazines want to read about the dreamland stuff, because they can't read about it easily anywhere else - reasonably priced equipment they might actually buy they can learn about from anywhere. So, from a magazine perspective... if you build it, they don't come.

But I agree about the problem of educating people that good sound needn't cost a fortune and doesn't require a degree in astrophysics or golden ears. But that's always been the case.

Macca

17-05-2013, 12:48

Again this comes down to niche. Magazines review expensive gear because when we review a lot of inexpensive gear, the magazine's sales tank that month. The people who still read hi-fi magazines want to read about the dreamland stuff, because they can't read about it easily anywhere else - reasonably priced equipment they might actually buy they can learn about from anywhere. So, from a magazine perspective... if you build it, they don't come.

.

Fair point which I recall you have made before, you have to sell magazines (that's the point after all) , the main market is now the east, and that's what they want. Rather than review cheap gear you could do a regular feature or similar on assembling a budget system. Or do I recall you also saying that feature articles tank sales as well? Rock and a hard place, really.

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 12:57

Fair point which I recall you have made before, you have to sell magazines (that's the point after all) , the main market is now the east, and that's what they want. Rather than review cheap gear you could do a regular feature or similar on assembling a budget system. Or do I recall you also saying that feature articles tank sales as well? Rock and a hard place, really.

We will be putting more features in place after issue 100, because we need to address more than the core audience. And there will be system features too.

It's not just the East that wants the big hitter systems. Although what's really curious at the moment is the people buying up large systems in the UK today often have curiously Russian and Chinese-sounding names...

Macca

17-05-2013, 13:14

Alan Sircom

17-05-2013, 13:41

One other point that occurs since we are on the subject - magazines always advise 'find a good dealer'. Now that is sage advice if you are already on the hi-fi ladder and wish to avoid expensive mistakes - a good dealer should be more of a consultant than a box shifter and the price you pay for his services needs to be value for money. But if you are just starting out, 20 years old say, with debts and not a lot of money a dealership is the most expensive place to buy your first system. It may put you off the whole idea completely and forever when you discover that the dealer's 'starter system' is £1.5K when you were looking to spend £150.

I agree, but the main drive of that is not to the person with £150, because they simply won't read it. In fact, shouldn't read it - if you've got £150 to spend, spending £5 on a magazine is removing just over 3% of your very tight budget. Far better to have £155 to spend.

At this price point, my main piece of advice would be 'ABB' - Anything But Beats!

MartinT

19-05-2013, 16:08

Marco

19-05-2013, 16:31

Why not invite a couple of them back to your place to do a test, along the lines you mention, as an educational exercise? You would also get the opportunity to ply them with the joys of vinyl...

My experience of doing that with youngsters has always proved that they can appreciate the difference that quality hi-fi makes to their favourite tunes - and they always say that vinyl is cool, especially when you've got a Techy (which generally they're very aware of)! ;)

The challenge, for me, is never getting them to appreciate what quality hi-fi equipment does, but rather getting them to buy into it.

Marco.

MartinT

19-05-2013, 19:13

I may do a test with my placement student when I get him over for a team BBQ over summer.

Alan Sircom

19-05-2013, 22:29

The big disconnect, which no-one seems to be addressing, is how do we educate the young-with-aspirations who think that Dr Dre, Beats and Bose are the epitome of high end headphone brands, and not cheap either. You and I know that you can do better for no more money, but it's a tough nut to crack when they are so brainwashed by heavy marketing.

Similarly, is there a way to promote a Mini-T amp with a pair of Wharfedale Diamonds as better than a Wave Radio? My experience with students suggests not easily.

I don't think it's that no-one's addressing this. It's that any attempt to address this is immediately washed away by the sheer weight of marketing thrown at the whole Beats thing. Beats and Skullcandy are sold as fashion accessories as much as they are on sound quality and the moment a Beats product begins to wane in popularity, they either discreetly drop the model, or make sure the rapper du jour is seen wearing a set, both on videos and in public.

Remember that Dre and Iovine managed to put one over on Monster. An extremely serious one at that, as in 'signing over the rights to the technology, the R&D and the IP'. And in the process doing that to someone like Noel Lee who, whatever you might think of his products, his personality or even his Segway, is one of the most shrewd businessmen around.

On a personal, one-to-one level... sure. It's pretty easy to play someone a pair of Beats and practically anything else and have them hear just how limited the Beats headphones are. We did just that at the Gadget Show Live at the NEC last month. But even then, about one time in three, when you offer to play something else, you might as well be insulting their dress sense.

That's the pull of Beats.

The same thing happened with Bose a few years back. There was a campaign by the audio industry in the States to try and get people to try and hear something that wasn't a Bose Wave Radio. The result? Bose ran adverts in the newspapers, in train stations, on the backs of buses, in cinemas everywhere, telling people how much money they could get in return for trading in their 'landfill' stack of hi-fi boxes. The campaign - as relatively mild as it was - backfired massively, because Bose reinvests a vast amount of company profits (reputedly as much as 33% of profits) into marketing Bose. If the rest of the industry did the same, it would be marketing a vague concept of an audio industry, and once again 'Brand Bose' would just sweep it under the rug.

Andrei

20-05-2013, 05:37

Thanks for link to pics. A lot of interest and as others have mentioned a bit too much. My HIDEOUS AWARD nomination goes to Zen Sati. Any other nominations?

Mr. C

20-05-2013, 15:05

I heard that show is being sponsored. by Ricardo, any truth in that Alan.
Kr Keith.

Afternoon Keith

You maybe on to something, have you seen the new edition of HFN at all?

An advert for the show appears on page 14 in the middle are three recent HFN front covers, not sure who supplies those products are you?

purite audio

20-05-2013, 15:38

I will flick through it at Smiths, if they still carry the mag !
I guess it might make sense to buy a magazine entirely .
Keith.

hifi_dave

20-05-2013, 16:07

I received my copy of the Absolute Sounds brochure - sorry I meant Hi-Fi News, this morning

purite audio

20-05-2013, 16:54

How many AS products are featured?
Do we have another Roy Gregory /Nordost scenario?
Kr Keith.

hifi_dave

20-05-2013, 16:59

Only four plus the inevitable front cover.

Ammonite Audio

20-05-2013, 17:00

I received my copy of the Absolute Sounds brochure - sorry I meant Hi-Fi News, this morning

The same thought appeared to me! It would be better for credibility if the AS gear was spread around the HFN reviewers, rather than going straight to KK. But presumably AS know what they're doing and how to influence the media.

purite audio

20-05-2013, 18:37

I suppose it would make sense for Ricardo to finance a magazine and the associated HiFi show,
I wonder how long the sponsorship will last when the magazine only has a circulation of only a few thousand.
Keith.

User211

20-05-2013, 20:46

Being a pedant, it is page 15.

There's a link on it too. (http://www.hifinews.co.uk/editorial/page.asp?p=875)

MartinT

21-05-2013, 08:00

On a personal, one-to-one level... sure. It's pretty easy to play someone a pair of Beats and practically anything else and have them hear just how limited the Beats headphones are. We did just that at the Gadget Show Live at the NEC last month. But even then, about one time in three, when you offer to play something else, you might as well be insulting their dress sense.

That's the pull of Beats.

I put this to my placement student. Here's his reply, at least it is more representative of what young people think than our guesses:

I think people presume a bit too much about people with certain headphones.
Most students/friends I know who are genuinely interested in their music, do look for better sennheiser headphones etc.
I do think most (not all) know that Beats are not the best sound quality around but are not fussed about that. They love it as a fashion accessory as much as a nice watch, the quality of the headphones is not “Bad” so they are not fussed.
A lot of people my age can only afford maybe one set of headphones.
Do they get the nice sound quality/ The Fashionable item..?
Arguably Beats are worth 4 sets of other headphones but as is the fashion world.
Also most students I know, if you look, have relatively large speaker systems. Nothing incredible mind but still £50+ with extensive subwoofage for pre-drinking nights out. As such headphones are just used as a temporary stop gap till they can get home and pump up the bass.
As such most students I know actually invest 60/40% 70/30% into their speakers first and headphones second. Obviously they don’t carry their speakers round with them so this can’t be seen.
Rather than people moan about what is more obviously a fashion statement, help them work on their home sound system.
A lot of students I know attempt to invest in £50+ Logitech or other speakers they can whack a jack into their laptops and blast Spotify through till midnight.