Pre/power vs Integrated

[stairpost]

Hi all,

It's been a couple of years since I used an integrated amp, and have never owned one that would compare to my current Wakonda and 2 LK100s set up.

I am keen to hear opinions/experiences of one box amps compared to multi box amplification.

Purely out of box swap curiosity is it likely that I could better what I have with a 2nd hand integrated for roughly what I could sell my amps for? (£750ish)

cheers

Rich.

[ell-tell]

Hi all,

is it likely that I could better what I have with a 2nd hand integrated for roughly what I could sell my amps for? (£750ish)

cheers

Rich.

Doubt it, better to go Activ with Linn speakers, I think. Ninka would be a good match.

[Rowlf]

The advantage of a 2 box solution lies with dedicated power supply and circuit.

However, I have heard some really good integrated like Plinius, Dartzeel, Gryphon and Jadis. I think in the end it has more to do with design application and build quality.

[dgolh]

There's another huge advantage: pre/amp combos give a lot of room for never ending quests for cables....:lol:

[stairpost]

Cheers for the input.

I do think about going active with my Keilidhs, but I am then tied into one system. It's pretty much impossible to make any changes, or even try a new component in an active set up without having to modify each bit of kit.

And as for cables. Linn blacks all the way so no fun to be had there :)

Rich

[DSJR]

Having the preamp separate *in domestic systems* was essential in very powerful systems back in the day because phono stages and other low level inputs needed to be isolated from hum-noisy power supplies as the power went up. Not an issue now as digital is at significantly higher level and external phono stages are commonplace today :)

As for Keilidhs, having sold all versions and OWNED late model ones myself, I can GUARANTEE beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that going active is essential for good performance. The Keilidh is a severely hobbled speaker in passive form, with a deeply sucked out midrange. The earlier ones with mesh covered tweeters have an impolite treble quality too, which dramatically improved with the ribbed ceramic-dome model that came later. Extra magnets on the bass units lifted the mid a tad as well, but this difference is a lot smaller. Use them active, with either LK140's or the 5225? 5 channel power amp and with built-in aktiv cards and with the tweeter level backed off one notch, and the Keilidh's are a very different and rather desirable proposition.

Sorry for the off-topic lecture above, but having used Keilidh's both bi-amp active and also tri-amped active with three LK140's (a superb sound by any standards used this way and affordable now) I jelt I had to dive in in defence of them used this way.


By the way, if three Linn power amps are used (the LK140 is great used this way), the interconnects joining the three up can be as short as possible and as long as the preamp is ok with the load (the Wakonda is a grainy sounding bottleneck compared to the Kairn for example), you don't have to spend a fortune here.....

The Linn blacks are easily upgraded, either for the Silver coloured ones they do (silly over-priced but good) or for Mark Grants and others at far lower price again. The black cables are messy and a bit splattery for whatever reason, although the cable looks sensible and with nice plugs on each end...

[stairpost]

Having the preamp separate *in domestic systems* was essential in very powerful systems back in the day because phono stages and other low level inputs needed to be isolated from hum-noisy power supplies as the power went up. Not an issue now as digital is at significantly higher level and external phono stages are commonplace today :)

As for Keilidhs, having sold all versions and OWNED late model ones myself, I can GUARANTEE beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that going active is essential for good performance. The Keilidh is a severely hobbled speaker in passive form, with a deeply sucked out midrange. The earlier ones with mesh covered tweeters have an impolite treble quality too, which dramatically improved with the ribbed ceramic-dome model that came later. Extra magnets on the bass units lifted the mid a tad as well, but this difference is a lot smaller. Use them active, with either LK140's or the 5225? 5 channel power amp and with built-in aktiv cards and with the tweeter level backed off one notch, and the Keilidh's are a very different and rather desirable proposition.

Sorry for the off-topic lecture above, but having used Keilidh's both bi-amp active and also tri-amped active with three LK140's (a superb sound by any standards used this way and affordable now) I jelt I had to dive in in defence of them used this way.


By the way, if three Linn power amps are used (the LK140 is great used this way), the interconnects joining the three up can be as short as possible and as long as the preamp is ok with the load (the Wakonda is a grainy sounding bottleneck compared to the Kairn for example), you don't have to spend a fortune here.....

The Linn blacks are easily upgraded, either for the Silver coloured ones they do (silly over-priced but good) or for Mark Grants and others at far lower price again. The black cables are messy and a bit splattery for whatever reason, although the cable looks sensible and with nice plugs on each end...

Hi Dave,

My understanding is that going active does bring a fantastic upgrade to the system. I could sell the LK100's and pick up an LK140 now (stereo cards seems cheaper, and easier to find and fit, as well as being a better amp) and a second one at some point later. Budget is a real consideration though. It really is pretty non existent. A new pre is definitely not likely either. I have just upgraded to the latest tweeter and it made a very nice difference to the sound. I agree the 015/1 mesh tweeter was very harsh, I had them in my first Keilidhs.

I'm not actually unhappy with my set up but I do just get that annoying and unwanted nagging thought of could I better it by well planned box swapping rather than just chucking money at it.

I think the best upgrade to enjoying any hifi is the listener letting himself be content with it.

Rich

[istari_knight]

Dave's spot on about the Keilidhs... I heard the ex-father in laws active pair & was suitably impressed so went out and bought myself a [passive] pair - Was disappointed to say the least they sounded like completely different speakers.

If you plan on keeping the Keilidhs long term just buy the bits to take them active one at a time as you can afford them.

[DSJR]

The thing is, the Keilidh cabinets with KuStone bases make for a very inert and solid box for the bass drivers to work in. The main issue was with the midrange, sorted in the Ninka's by the way, but going active with the Keilidh's transformed them into a really good speaker, even if the tweeter is set a touch too low for close-up listening unless one sits on the floor..

I'm not saying that ALL speakers benefit from active operation, as certain people (often with agendas) do, but neither do I hold with these same people's assertions that ALL passive speakers boom and sound harsh at crossover, although I can think of many that are exactly like this for one reason or another (dressed up but fundamentally cheap drive units often the case).

I think it fair to suggest that ALL Linn speakers around this time were basically pretty good active-capable designs hobbled for whatever reason by compromised passive crossovers. Indeed, the Kaber and Nexus were all but unusable in passive form (the kaber needed the later tweeters too but that's another story).

My own take on Linn's late 1990's amps was that the Lk100 and early Klouts could sound a little grainy, despite the grunt available from the latter. Later versions of the Klout and the LK140 avoided this and although the Lk140 is very much a good "solid state" amp, if you know what I mean, the sound is clear and tweakable by cables and driving preamp..

As for preamps, the Kairn has a following and the used prices of around £500 hold up because of this. Cheaper and better preamps are readily available on the used market and my recommendations for these would be something like the Cyrus original preamp (with balanced outs and discrete circuitry), the MF X-P100 (sort of lozenge shaped original X series), which was as good as the original Nu-Vista I thought and an excellent line stage, the later AVI S2000 preamp which was purpose designed to drive very long interconnects to remote power amps and also with a good phono stage if allowed 45 minutes to warm up.. The Quad 77 may offer a delightful sonic too, but watch the remote. I hesitate on the Crofts for this job as multiple power amps and long interconnects aren't part of of their portfolio I've found... UK made Audiolab 8000Q was another goodie and hopefully, the Chinese one may be as good too, although I haven't compared them.

Of course there are other things out there, but I've rambled on too much already. You have the basis of a great system and with careful box-swapping, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised :)

[stairpost]

The thing is, the Keilidh cabinets with KuStone bases make for a very inert and solid box for the bass drivers to work in. The main issue was with the midrange, sorted in the Ninka's by the way, but going active with the Keilidh's transformed them into a really good speaker, even if the tweeter is set a touch too low for close-up listening unless one sits on the floor..

I'm not saying that ALL speakers benefit from active operation, as certain people (often with agendas) do, but neither do I hold with these same people's assertions that ALL passive speakers boom and sound harsh at crossover, although I can think of many that are exactly like this for one reason or another (dressed up but fundamentally cheap drive units often the case).

I think it fair to suggest that ALL Linn speakers around this time were basically pretty good active-capable designs hobbled for whatever reason by compromised passive crossovers. Indeed, the Kaber and Nexus were all but unusable in passive form (the kaber needed the later tweeters too but that's another story).

My own take on Linn's late 1990's amps was that the Lk100 and early Klouts could sound a little grainy, despite the grunt available from the latter. Later versions of the Klout and the LK140 avoided this and although the Lk140 is very much a good "solid state" amp, if you know what I mean, the sound is clear and tweakable by cables and driving preamp..

As for preamps, the Kairn has a following and the used prices of around £500 hold up because of this. Cheaper and better preamps are readily available on the used market and my recommendations for these would be something like the Cyrus original preamp (with balanced outs and discrete circuitry), the MF X-P100 (sort of lozenge shaped original X series), which was as good as the original Nu-Vista I thought and an excellent line stage, the later AVI S2000 preamp which was purpose designed to drive very long interconnects to remote power amps and also with a good phono stage if allowed 45 minutes to warm up.. The Quad 77 may offer a delightful sonic too, but watch the remote. I hesitate on the Crofts for this job as multiple power amps and long interconnects aren't part of of their portfolio I've found... UK made Audiolab 8000Q was another goodie and hopefully, the Chinese one may be as good too, although I haven't compared them.

Of course there are other things out there, but I've rambled on too much already. You have the basis of a great system and with careful box-swapping, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised :)

Thanks Dave. That was really good to read.

What do you think about passive pre amps? NVA seem to do well with them and the Khozmo designs in the heads up thread are a real work of art. Can they better a Wakonda? I am a pretty hearty Linn fan and feel more than a little traitorous even enquiring about other makes, but ultimately it is music that matters.

Rich.

[DSJR]

In THIS case, you need a proper powered preamp so the buffer can drive longer lengths of cables - these Linn systems do favour short speaker leads (doesn't have to be crap K600) and a good low capacitance interconnect a few metres long should be better for the system IMO.

Some amps are basically power amps preceded by a selector switch and a volume control (old Cyrus 1 and 2 were classic examples amongst others) and many valve designs (as well as older Quad solid state power amps like the 303 and 405 series in standard form) can work a treat with a passive preamp.

[Joe]

I think the best upgrade to enjoying any hifi is the listener letting himself be content with it.

Rich

Aye, and not reading hifi mags or forums.

[Yomanze]

Aye, and not reading hifi mags or forums.

Gotta start somewhere. :)

[stairpost]

Thanks for all the advice, Especially Dave R.

I have decided active really is the sensible way to go. So I'm selling my LK100s and going for LK140s (one at a time though) and I'll pick up the stereo cards when funds allow. That gives me a nice easy upgrade path.

cheers

Rich

[DSJR]

I hope you can do this and that you like what you hear at the end of it ;)

[stairpost]

I hope you can do this and that you like what you hear at the end of it ;)

Me too :)