View Full Version : Tellurium q Graphite USB
realysm42
02-05-2013, 08:47
In my humble experience, cables make a difference to the sound of my system, so where I can, I demo and pick the best.
Oddly enough, I could never hear a difference with the cables that links my source (PC) to the DAC I used at the time (mdac). I tried tq black, oyaide coax etc and settled with a £4 USB cable. I always maintained that it could make a difference elsewhere and didn't bother trying to work out why it wasn't the case here.
SO, new DAC and an opportunity to put my theory to the test. I'm demoing a graphite USB cable, courtesy of mcru.
Now, part of me wanted to not hear a difference, but I let my ears judge and what a difference I heard :eek:
It was akin to the first time I plugged my tq ultra blacks in, the soundstage expanded, everything cleared up, bass became cleaner, fuller (not louder, just better). Every instrument had more space round them, the texture became more visceral (but not overwhelmingly so, I've never been so happy with the balance of my system).
Funnily enough, my brother and I did the exact same thing as when then ultras went in, just looked at each other as if to ask "are you hearing what I'm hearing?".
The cable isn't burnt in yet, all tq stuff seems to sound very slightly rough round the edges at first, but I'm hoping to enjoy every second of getting it up to speed :eyebrows:
This is an incredible bit of cable :cool:
Covenant
02-05-2013, 10:02
There are some VERY scathing comments on the 'wam about expensive USB cables. Although I have a cheap USB cable I shall probably replace it with something better because all interconnects sound different to me.
...
Oddly enough, I could never hear a difference with the cables that links my source (PC) to the DAC I used at the time (mdac). I tried tq black, oyaide coax etc and settled with a £4 USB cable. I always maintained that it could make a difference elsewhere and didn't bother trying to work out why it wasn't the case here.
Probably because the MDAC has an isolated and correctly implemented asynchronous USB input.
This is an incredible bit of cable :cool:
Did you mention the name of your new DAC? If the cable is making a difference to your DAC then go back to the MDAC...
I've looked at USB cable and signal technology a fair bit recently and would not question anybody hearing a difference in USB cables, however, with correct USB implementation at the DAC they really should not make any difference.
realysm42
02-05-2013, 10:20
Tbh Jerry, they're entitled to their opinion, I don't know what their systems sound like and they've not heard mine.
But Im in your camp mate, I'm glad I kept an open mind and feel vindicated in trying again, now I've got a new DAC.
New gear, new rules, and this USB cable sounds so so much better than what I had in before (furutech formula 2).
If you can stretch to tq prices, I thoroughly recommend giving them a go. Its a lot to pay "for a bit of wire" but its an investment.
I find USB cables matter but you don't need expensive ones.
1) short is better, even using cheap hardwired adapters if you can manage to plug one between PC and DAC. I've made very short (5cm) cables using Malplin plugs, these better some very pricey audiophile cables.
2) if your DAC doesn't take power from the computer USB then buy or make a cable with no +5V wire. Big improvement from this.
So a short cable and no 5V wire is my recipe. Here's a rough diy example:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/shortusbcable.jpg
realysm42
02-05-2013, 10:22
'Nrg' why would I go back?
My new DAC destroys the mdac in every department!
I'm not going to get into implementation of USB etc because I don't know or care how that a stuff works, I trust my ears and if putting another cable in makes a difference, for the better I'm going to stick with it. Why does the cup have to be half empty all the time?
***EDIT*** my new dac is a Longdog Audio VDt1 DAC.
I dont know what you mean by your last sentence. I hope to have a good chat with Nick at our next DIY bash about USB.
+1 to Clives post we talked about this on AT and I found the same.
icehockeyboy
02-05-2013, 10:53
How much does the new TQ cable cost?
Cancel that, just found out.
£450.
Gulp!
realysm42
02-05-2013, 10:53
I don't know enough to argue about USB implementation, I trust my ears and am happy to improve the sound of my system and I'm happy I can do so, that's what I'm saying.
@ice £450
I don't know enough to argue about USB implementation, I trust my ears and am happy to improve the sound of my system and I'm happy I can do so, that's what I'm saying.
@ice £450
OK, but maybe you should A/B it with something like a Wireworld Ultraviolet cable at £40-odd quid... seems like a hell of a lot of money to not compare with other "serious" USB cables.
If anyone wants a source for individuality configured USB cable you can try Elijah Audio.
The prices are not at Chinese mass-market rates but they aren't crazy either for handmade cables.
http://www.elijahaudio.com/products.html
Ali Tait
02-05-2013, 11:59
Found the same at a previous get together, we tried several usb cables between a laptop and v link. All were easily discernably different.
Found the same at a previous get together, we tried several usb cables between a laptop and v link. All were easily discernably different.
I really don't want to rock the boat (too much), but next time you do these comparisons, could you, for a giggle, try listening totally blindfolded so you have no idea what the cables are and/or how much they cost. All reputable USB cables at sensibly low prices have to meet a data-transfer minimum standard I believe and, until the data reaches the DAC, it's not supposed to matter. The DAC receiver has a "window of acceptance" which USB cables *should* be able to place the data in, so if one cable really is sounding better, then there's something else going on. Trust my ears? Not on my nellie, let alone yours :lol:
At our last bake off a chap showed up with some homemade USB cables which did not contain the power strands. His argument was lower noise by removing the unnecessary power carrying wires to an independently powered DAC. Don't know whether this logic holds up but I do wonder why all audiophiles are not using them if we don't need to power a component by USB.
Thoughts?
I really don't want to rock the boat (too much), but next time you do these comparisons, could you, for a giggle, try listening totally blindfolded so you have no idea what the cables are and/or how much they cost. All reputable USB cables at sensibly low prices have to meet a data-transfer minimum standard I believe and, until the data reaches the DAC, it's not supposed to matter. The DAC receiver has a "window of acceptance" which USB cables *should* be able to place the data in, so if one cable really is sounding better, then there's something else going on. Trust my ears? Not on my nellie, let alone yours :lol:
Yes and no, Yes it should not matter but somehow it does. The USB spec does give guidance on construction and impedance but there is quite a large tolerance on this IE: the twist per inch for the data lines has a 2 cm tolerance, the termination values have a 10% tolerance plus the data lines have to operate not only in differential mode but also support single ended command mode. These two modes have different impedance requirements.
The design of the end node device may use the defined USB specification for termination and impedance but many cables, even, spec compliant ones, will vary from the ideal. IE the TPI of many cables it twice that of the USB spec. and running the power lines inside the same sheath along with the twisted data lines causes variation of the impedance along the cables length. This last point alone may explain what shortest is best.
At our last bake off a chap showed up with some homemade USB cables which did not contain the power strands. His argument was lower noise by removing the unnecessary power carrying wires to an independently powered DAC. Don't know whether this logic holds up but I do wonder why all audiophiles are not using them if we don't need to power a component by USB.
Thoughts?
It may, as the differential pair run inside the same sheath as the power lines the cable twist of the data lines cause a varying impedance down the length of the cable. Removing the ground and Vbus power line would help and maybe remove noise from those lines. I've certainly had good results using a USB isolator and employing a 5v battery to power the Vbus line.
realysm42
02-05-2013, 12:52
If anyone wants a source for individuality configured USB cable you can try Elijah Audio.
The prices are not at Chinese mass-market rates but they aren't crazy either for handmade cables.
http://www.elijahaudio.com/products.html
I've actually made use of their money back trial and am expecting delivery any day, I'll report back with my findings vs the graphite.
Best not tell anyone what your new DAC cost mate they will all have a hissy fit :lol:
Best not tell anyone what your new DAC cost mate they will all have a hissy fit :lol:
It seems like the Tellurium USB cable is priced at 15% of the DAC.
Audioman
02-05-2013, 15:19
I'm with Clive's approach on this as it makes perfect sense and have read similar results in using short cables or a cableless USB connection elsewhere. It has more to do with quality of connection and implementation than cost. I imagine the Mdac Martin used previously is not as great as the hype suggests and am sure that there are ways of achieving equally good results using some lateral thinking with reasonably priced components. Can't see why a DAC should cost £KK's or a simple cable £00's to achieve improvements over some of the real world products out there.
Paul.
Really can't understand why anyone would pay a fortune on cables.
Some seem to spend nearly the same amount as there components.
Surely money would be better spent on better quality separates and cheaper cables?
Of course if it works for you good luck.
steviej233
02-05-2013, 16:16
This is driving me a but nutty, people buy these cables as they DO make a difference and the reason why manufacturers sell at these prices is because they can because the demand is there! If you don't believe then can i suggest you contact someone like Dave at MCRU and ask him if you can demo some bits and you may be pleasantly surprised, and more importantly what have you got to loose?
I cannot personally afford to spend £450 on a USB cable but i can vouch for the fact that is definitely does make a difference in a system that i no to sound bloody great at the best of times, so if you can improve the sound of your system and you can afford it then i say go for it. If you can achieve the sound you are looking for with better equipment and thats your preference then go for it!
I am about to trial some interconnects so i will let you all know how that goes. ;)
realysm42
02-05-2013, 16:17
Tbh, I'm tiring of explaining my rationale; I like the sound it gives me, so I buy it.
Would I get a better sound with putting that towards better separated? Who knows, nothing is cut and dried in this game, there's no exact scale and I don't give a toss, it makes me smile, I buy it :cool:
A lot of what we gain can't be measured, in this subjective hobby of ours and YMMV goes for everything.
More of whatever the f#ck tq does with their stuff in my system is not a bad thing, IMO of course.
It strikes me as very odd that those who abhor the idea of posh ancillaries just assume the position of authority on the subject, as if people that like to invest in anything else (heretics!) are somehow wrong for doing so... Most strange.
If you think what I'm doing is wrong is stupid, come round and judge for yourselves.
This is driving me a but nutty, people buy these cables as they DO make a difference and the reason why manufacturers sell at these prices is because they can because the demand is there! If you don't believe then can i suggest you contact someone like Dave at MCRU and ask him if you can demo some bits and you may be pleasantly surprised, and more importantly what have you got to loose?
USB cables do make a difference, I haven't tried the TQ one but audiophile ones with 2 data and 2 power wires I have tried have been trounced by diy ones (and Elijah) with only 3 wires and the same goes for hardwired connectors (no wire).
I feel that with digital cable there's some stuff you have to get right, there's nothing exotic required and they needn't cost a lot.
realysm42
02-05-2013, 16:30
USB cables do make a difference, I haven't tried the TQ one but audiophile ones with 2 data and 2 power wires I have tried have been trounced by diy ones (and Elijah) with only 3 wires and the same goes for hardwired connectors (no wire).
I feel that with digital cable there's some stuff you have to get right, there's nothing exotic required and they needn't cost a lot.
Fwiw, I've just unplugged the Elijah audio USB isolate (copper) from my system as it doesn't work.
While I agree that good cables don't have to cost the earth, the best you tend to pay a premium for; you can move higher up the food chain (with diminishing results probably) but everyone has a preference.
I auditioned black rhodium emperor cables before the tq, they were pretty good. In goes the tq and bang, they were trounced. Wouldn't it be lovely if the absolute best things I've heard in my stereo were cheap? I'd buy them over "high price snake oil and foo" :eek:
Is there something wrong with me paying for something I know to be the best from audition and preference?
I've never seen a hobby where people get so uptight about other people enjoying their journey, I'm not spending your money am I? (This paragraph isn't aimed at you Clive, just a general observation).
Fwiw, I've just unplugged the Elijah audio USB isolate (copper) from my system as it doesn't work.
Assuming it's not faulty then it could be that Nick's DAC needs to see 5V from the USB for some reason. Possibly powering the USB - I2S? If that is the case then an iFi iUSBPower would be a great option, I use this with my Octave. iFi are just about to ship their twin headed Gemini cable for this sort of config where the computer USB 5V is swapped out for a less polluted 5V. The Gemini is similar to the Elijah ISOLAAT BL.
realysm42
02-05-2013, 16:44
Bloody good point mate; as it happens I've got one of those :eyebrows:
Brb.
If you think what I'm doing is wrong is stupid, come round and judge for yourselves.
Someone please take up this offer.
realysm42
02-05-2013, 16:45
Pardon Alan? Didn't catch that :lol:
I have listened to different cables and could tell no difference.
Of course others can so good luck,far from me to tell anyone how to put together a system/cables.
This is just my opinion so no need for anyone to get frustrated.
brian2957
02-05-2013, 16:52
Good on you Martin . I don't tend to get involved in these cable arguments , particularly USB cables , because of what you're experiencing here . I was using a Furutech Formula 2 cable which was very good indeed and with the help and advice of David at MCRU I tried the Furutech GT2 cable . The GT2 provided me with a big improvement in SQ so I bought it . I've heard the TQ USB cable and if I had the funds I would buy it tomorrow . I'm not interested in specifications or scientific measurements . I use the ultimate measuring tool for SQ - my own system and my own ears . :)
realysm42
02-05-2013, 16:53
I have listened to different cables and could tell no difference.
Of course others can so good luck,far from me to tell anyone how to put together a system/cables.
This is just my opinion so no need for anyone to get frustrated.
Fair enough. I don't pretend to have golden ears or anything (I've got tinnitus and am worried I'm developing hyper acusis too). As I said, I think some gear it can be heard, with other gear it can't (hence me even doing this demo, as I have a new DAC).
I don't care why I can this time, I can so I take the route that sounds the best to me.
Nice one Brian, I'm glad its working out for you mate :cool:
Clive your suggestions worked, the Elijah cable sounds good out of the box. I wonder what happens if I combine the tq, ifi and Elijah?
Brb :eyebrows:
I have never used measurments to buy hi fi.
Mainly because it is over my head.
Just use my ears which is my preferred way.
Just sometimes makes me smile what is written about cables.
Some descriptions of cables make you think someone has just gone from a pair of bookshelves to a pair of horns.
realysm42
02-05-2013, 17:01
I don't know enough to talk about measurements and tbh, I use my ears.
OK so that other combo doesn't work, graphite back in. I'll do some serious listening to compare them later (hard to do with the washing machine on lol).
Clive your suggestions worked, the Elijah cable sounds good out of the box. I wonder what happens if I combine the tq, ifi and Elijah?
Brb :eyebrows:
You should try it, I use the Elijah to feed the iUSBPower.
realysm42
02-05-2013, 17:06
You should try it, I use the Elijah to feed the iUSBPower.
Which one do you use?
Which one do you use?
I use an Isolate to feed the iUSBPower though I have an Isolaate BL coming which should allow me to plug the data cable into the pc and power cable into the iFi.
realysm42
02-05-2013, 17:20
It was odd, the graphite sounds better without the ifi in the chain, it seems to strangle the sound.
Did you toggle the iso earth? Something's strange here!
realysm42
02-05-2013, 17:30
Did you toggle the iso earth? Something's strange here!
I assume you mean the switch on the side of the ifi? I didn't, all 3 lights were on.
I assume you mean the switch on the side of the ifi? I didn't, all 3 lights were on.
Having the "wrong" earth setting is the only thing I can think of.
realysm42
02-05-2013, 17:41
Having the "wrong" earth setting is the only thing I can think of.
I'll have a proper look this weekend. I've realised I've sat here typing all this waffle, largely ignoring the music; shame on me.
The really bizarre bit for me is that you take a USB cable, plug it into your computer, any computer, and any ancillary and it works. When was the last time you transferred data across a USB link and found the data corrupted? That cable can, on your whim, cost from pennies to pounds.
The minute it’s for Hi-fi usage, all that goes out of the window. Is this because the DACS’s in question are poorly implemented, because audiophiles have to be just that, and have been programmed over the years to think that cables carry some formula the defies the law of physics, or can we not separate out the digital domain from analogue.
While many say that they hear huge differences in cable types, I struggle to hear much beyond nothing changes, to subtle changes, and can seldom consistently hear the same changes unless I am aware of what has been changed, and would certainly fail any blind listening tests.
Has anyone written a paper of any kind that explains the differences in digital to digital transmission cable that shows what causes these anomalies? I tend to work on the rather simplistic theory that comes from computer networking, that if it is carrying a digital transmission, it either works, or is broken, and does not.
The difference with audio is temporal. You are listening in realtime, a printer can take all the time it needs to print a sheet of paper. There seem to be 3 camps:
1) bits are bits, there can be no difference between digital cables
2) audiophile cable can make a big difference
3) some simple (not expensive) cable design aspects can help with time distortions
I suspect also injecting noise (RF) into a DAC will have some impact.
Hi Martin
I would like to take you on your offer please.
realysm42
03-05-2013, 11:26
Sure, let me check with the missus and see what we can do.
Yes and no, Yes it should not matter but somehow it does. The USB spec does give guidance on construction and impedance but there is quite a large tolerance on this IE: the twist per inch for the data lines has a 2 cm tolerance, the termination values have a 10% tolerance plus the data lines have to operate not only in differential mode but also support single ended command mode. These two modes have different impedance requirements.
The design of the end node device may use the defined USB specification for termination and impedance but many cables, even, spec compliant ones, will vary from the ideal. IE the TPI of many cables it twice that of the USB spec. and running the power lines inside the same sheath along with the twisted data lines causes variation of the impedance along the cables length. This last point alone may explain what shortest is best.
Belated reply, but thanks very much for that :)
Looking forward to the results of this. Either there will be a lot of people eating their words or (more likely) the battle of wills will continue.
I'd like to say I am open to suggestion, but as my job expects me to have a working knowledge of digital data communication and error correction (I dont by the way!) I think the test will come out 'inconclusive'.
The design of the end node device may use the defined USB specification for termination and impedance but many cables, even, spec compliant ones, will vary from the ideal. IE the TPI of many cables it twice that of the USB spec. and running the power lines inside the same sheath along with the twisted data lines causes variation of the impedance along the cables length. This last point alone may explain what shortest is best.
Hi Neal
An astute observation :)
Ali Tait
03-05-2013, 13:01
Well all I can say is that the people who were there all heard the differences between the cables, and yes, the TQ Black I had on loan was the best of the bunch (also by far the most expensive)
I tried the cable later between my Drobo and Droboshare, hardwired to router, router hardwired to media player. Made no difference I could detect.
realysm42
03-05-2013, 13:06
Well all I can say is that the people who were there all heard the differences between the cables, and yes, the TQ Black I had on loan was the best of the bunch (also by far the most expensive)
I tried the cable later between my Drobo and Droboshare, hardwired to router, router hardwired to media player. Made no difference I could detect.
Amen.
brian2957
03-05-2013, 13:10
Yup agreed Ali , I was there and heard the difference :)
If we accept that the cable made a difference, and people present would suggest that it did, then we are left with a few questions to answer.
The cable is better than a standard USB cable, but how. Are the standard ones built against a standard that is too wide (How do they work on printers and hard drives then?)
The receiving DAC is itself built to a ''strange'' standard and can not work with a standard cable, but should.
The fact that a printer and hard drives can take time should not matter, surely the DAC has a receiving buffer.
How does a data stream carry timing information, its data till the DAC does its job.
Ali Tait
03-05-2013, 13:19
I also said it made no difference used on my Drobo, which may suggest it's implementation, rather than cable design.
Yup agreed Ali , I was there and heard the difference :)
wot he said.
realysm42
03-05-2013, 13:27
If we accept that the cable made a difference, and people present would suggest that it did, then we are left with a few questions to answer.
The cable is better than a standard USB cable, but how. Are the standard ones built against a standard that is too wide (How do they work on printers and hard drives then?)
The receiving DAC is itself built to a ''strange'' standard and can not work with a standard cable, but should.
The fact that a printer and hard drives can take time should not matter, surely the DAC has a receiving buffer.
How does a data stream carry timing information, its data till the DAC does its job.
Or it might be none of the above; we don't know what we don't know.
Or it might be none of the above; we don't know what we don't know.
We don't, but some people somewhere do. I'm one of those strange people, and if I am going to drop a stack of cash on something like to have some idea of what the cash is buying. I am asking questions on this thread simply because I have a streaming system in the house/office at the moment. It is quite a simple system running from a Windows home server, (I need the server for other things) running on Ethernet (wired) into a couple of squeeze boxes. The one in the office is fine, its used for music to work to, but the one in the main system is OK for back ground music, in fact its better than that, but not as good as it could be, so I am toying with the idea of getting a DAC, rather than using the DAC built into the touch, but not if it needs a USB cable at £450 quid to work properly.
Stratmangler
03-05-2013, 14:02
The one in the office is fine, its used for music to work to, but the one in the main system is OK for back ground music, in fact its better than that, but not as good as it could be, so I am toying with the idea of getting a DAC, rather than using the DAC built into the touch, but not if it needs a USB cable at £450 quid to work properly.
Are you using the supplied SMPS PSU, and if so have you tried an SBooster?
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_77&products_id=270
realysm42
03-05-2013, 14:11
We don't, but some people somewhere do. I'm one of those strange people, and if I am going to drop a stack of cash on something like to have some idea of what the cash is buying. I am asking questions on this thread simply because I have a streaming system in the house/office at the moment. It is quite a simple system running from a Windows home server, (I need the server for other things) running on Ethernet (wired) into a couple of squeeze boxes. The one in the office is fine, its used for music to work to, but the one in the main system is OK for back ground music, in fact its better than that, but not as good as it could be, so I am toying with the idea of getting a DAC, rather than using the DAC built into the touch, but not if it needs a USB cable at £450 quid to work properly.
I've not said my system wasn't working before, it just sounds better now.
A milk float and Ferrari will get you to the same place, just differently.
Fair enough being inquisitive though. If you do hear a difference with USB, furutech formula 2 usbs offer good performance at a much more 'real world' price.
My £0.02 worth?
Like any hifi, but more so with "grey" areas like cables...
Hear them in your own system before you buy, compare with what you have.
Do they work, are they better...if so are they £xxx better?
Go for it if they are, all that matters are your ears and your system.
Hearing them first weeds out the snake oil.
And if your BRAVE, post about it on the forums to help others. :)
PS I've heard USB cables making a difference in my own system and others.
No idea where diminishing returns kicks in though!
realysm42
03-05-2013, 15:00
I've got to admit I think twice sometimes, discussion is all good but when people get upset about it and tell me I've got to be wrong it can put you off of sharing, you feel like you have to defend your stance opinion and in such a subjective area it can get a bit stupid.
Ali Tait
03-05-2013, 15:07
Yep, can understand that. I get round it by not really giving a toss what other people think. It's just words on a screen at the end of the day.
Still amazes me how people can get so worked up over what is supposed to be a hobby, and fun.
brian2957
03-05-2013, 15:07
I've got a spare tin hat Martin . Swap you for a TQ USB cable :eyebrows: Onwards and upwards mate :cool:
Yep, can understand that. I get round it by not really giving a toss what other people think. It's just words on a screen at the end of the day.
Still amazes me how people can get so worked up over what is supposed to be a hobby, and fun.
....and what people choose to spend their money on. I wouldn't do it, EVER, but it is the OPs choice at the end of the day. Some people however, might think the OP is a walking advert for the company and seller.
realysm42
03-05-2013, 15:17
I guess at the end of the day people are going to draw their own conclusions, whatever's said. Each to their own.
I'm happy to live and let live, it just shocks me sometimes how few others appear to do the same.
Hi Martin
I would like to take you on your offer please.
Mr C do you go as sympathetic, neutral/curious or sceptical about TQ USB cables?
Thnx for doing it.
wee tee cee
04-05-2013, 15:48
Having hard a TQ usb against a number of other cables I was disappointed to hear that it did indeed sound superior to the others we tried (couple of my belkins/furatek i think)I need a 5m usb so opted for a supra which is pretty good but can be improved upon. If funds allowed I would have TQ cables throughout my system....but they don't. Recently heard the black interconnect against what I use....it was better....HO HUM
Mr C do you go as sympathetic, neutral/curious or sceptical about TQ USB cables?
Thnx for doing it.
Hello Alan
I have no affiliation with TQ at all, I do not retail them, I have heard them on a number of occasions including graphite speaker cables. However not the USB cable variant.
For this I would just like to hear the effect in Martin's system in his environment for myself and it was kind for Martin to offer.
Martin I am away this week in Munich, can we arrange some a time for the following week, happy to fit in with you no problem.
Tony Mr.(C)
realysm42
07-05-2013, 08:03
Yeah that works out pretty well for me, got a free house next weekend, so we can check it out then.
Hello Alan
I have no affiliation with TQ at all, I do not retail them, I have heard them on a number of occasions including graphite speaker cables. However not the USB cable variant.
For this I would just like to hear the effect in Martin's system in his environment for myself and it was kind for Martin to offer.
Martin I am away this week in Munich, can we arrange some a time for the following week, happy to fit in with you no problem.
Tony Mr.(C)
Thanks for your post. You seem a suitable neutral with no axe to grind soul. I look forward to hearing if you experience what the OP does (ignoring politeness of a guest). Enjoy the day
Spectral Morn
07-05-2013, 21:53
To date I have only played around with Wireworld USB cables and I found that they sounded superior to various Belkin USBs and the Starlight sounded better than the Ultraviolet.
I came to it very sceptical as frankly its easy to just accept lowest common denominator solutions because after all its only a computer but that was wrong thinking and closed minded. I have an open mind re audio cabling in general but I didn't for computers - I was wrong.
I think it possible that a TQ USB cable could be very good (not heard any TQ stuff yet) and perhaps better than cheaper or similarly priced cables but without hearing it I can't say much more.
I think unless you have tried a cable (any thing in fact) in your set up you can't offer an opinion and then only as to how it sounds in your set up and might in others. I just can't understand how some offer sweeping statements of how things can't make a difference when they haven't tried them.
Regards Neil
The more you learn the less you know.
At our Scottish get togethers we have heard differences and improvements in all sorts of computer related kit.
Even adjusting one single software setting can change the sound.
Totally agree with the last paragraph.
Audioman
08-05-2013, 00:04
To date I have only played around with Wireworld USB cables and I found that they sounded superior to various Belkin USBs and the Starlight sounded better than the Ultraviolet.
I came to it very sceptical as frankly its easy to just accept lowest common denominator solutions because after all its only a computer but that was wrong thinking and closed minded. I have an open mind re audio cabling in general but I didn't for computers - I was wrong.
I think it possible that a TQ USB cable could be very good (not heard any TQ stuff yet) and perhaps better than cheaper or similarly priced cables but without hearing it I can't say much more.
I think unless you have tried a cable (any thing in fact) in your set up you can't offer an opinion and then only as to how it sounds in your set up and might in others. I just can't understand how some offer sweeping statements of how things can't make a difference when they haven't tried them.
Regards Neil
Only very few are saying there is no difference. However would like to know what is making the difference and whether it is small or it is synergy or covering a problem. The Wireworld cables aren't excessively priced. At £450 matters are different. Don't see how materially different this cable can be to justify the extra cost. IFi USB plus Wire World is cheaper and should make a bigger difference.
Ali Tait
08-05-2013, 05:18
I agree that it's difficult to justify the cost of the TQ usb cable, but it did sound better than the others. It wasn't the graphite we tried though, it was the black. Cheaper, but still a lot of money.
It would be good to know why they sound better.
Spectral Morn
08-05-2013, 09:29
Only very few are saying there is no difference. However would like to know what is making the difference and whether it is small or it is synergy or covering a problem. The Wireworld cables aren't excessively priced. At £450 matters are different. Don't see how materially different this cable can be to justify the extra cost. IFi USB plus Wire World is cheaper and should make a bigger difference.
Hi Paul
I was just saying in general, re the comment about those talking in sweeping generalisations who haven't tried what it is they are damning, its one of my bug bears. I think unless you have tried and experienced a thing you can't really say anything about it and certainly not stand up and shout loudly that it makes no difference and how can it. I would say go try it in the same setting (if you can) and then offer an opinion based on what you then hear, then try it in your own set up and see what happens. Yes synergy is a possibility but yet again the TQ cable may offer same or similar in many set ups. However in saying that I have read on AOS that some have found synergy issues with TQ cabling (not the USB) and have not liked what they heard or heard no difference to justify the cost - such is audio life not everything that works for some will work for all, or if it does to the same degree.
Yes you are right that a Wireworld Starlight (for example) + an iFi USB Power could offer more of an improvement than the TQ USB but then again maybe not. The thing I found when playing around with all this is that the type of USB cable used from the HD to the computer also made a difference so in my set up I use Wireworld Starlights between the HD and laptop, laptop and iFiUSB Power and then into the DAC. So once you factor that in it all gets quiet expensive especially as I suspect doing this also with the TQ USBs may well yield even more improvements. Of course if you have your music in the server/computer then you don't need so many cables.
I tried a couple of HDs all with their own external PSUs and the quality of USB cable affected the sound for good or ill in this application and I have read about some computer audio enthusiasts even inserting an iFi USB Power between the HD and the laptop/computer as well - I haven't tried that yet, as I would need to borrow another power and another Starlight cable to find out.
All interesting stuff.
Regards Neil
Only very few are saying there is no difference. However would like to know what is making the difference and whether it is small or it is synergy or covering a problem. The Wireworld cables aren't excessively priced. At £450 matters are different. Don't see how materially different this cable can be to justify the extra cost. IFi USB plus Wire World is cheaper and should make a bigger difference.
There is a thread on PFM which may proke thought. http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137602 basically saying differences between cables are small which is why people disagree about them. One persons home and kit may find a noticable (but small difference) someone elses world may display no difference with the same cable.
Peoples style, of speaking, can vary the message. One person, like the OP will speak in glowing terms over something An Other hardly notices.
Cable debaters seem to only see the world from their own point of view, experience and not allow for the world being bigger and more diverse then their view of it.
I hear small differences between some interconnects but it is not worth the effort trying loads of cables. If you have the time and money do so it will please you.
Some of you must have visited or even been members of WigWam it is the direct opposite of AoS who mainly hear cables differences whereas WAMers just dismiss.
What is interesting is that one forum does believe in cable hearing and another doesn't strange two groups should disagree
I agree that it's difficult to justify the cost of the TQ usb cable, but it did sound better than the others. It wasn't the graphite we tried though, it was the black. Cheaper, but still a lot of money.
It would be good to know why they sound better.
The OP has a thread of the same subject on PFM, where Colin Wonfor (TQ) has been posting but he is under orders to not reveal anything about cable construction. I doubt we will find out.
One aspect nobody has mention is the plugs on USB cables, plugs not cables.
My iPhone USB plug/socket is OK feels nicely engineered but not a tight grip, thats a mini USB. The USB plug/socket on my DAC is a vice like grip (type B). The full USB the other end is pretty tight too.
I'm in both camps over this, firstly, data transfer from a USB HDD is different to data transfer to a DAC. HDD is transferring block data using USB Bulk transfer mode IE: guaranteed, non time and bandwidth dependent delivery. The block data is ECC/CRC protected and an audio file is no different to a Word document as far as the HDD and transfer process is concerned. I have tried different USB HDD cables and just a small gender converter...there was no audible difference at all and I would say anybody 'hearing' a difference is not really hearing a difference. ;)
Transfer to the DAC is time dependent using Isochronous/Asynchronous transfer mode, bandwidth is guaranteed but delivery of data is not. It's here that I believe there can be some sort of interaction between end node termination, layout and cable construction that affects data delivery. I touched on cable impedance earlier, the tolerance is +/- 15% for a variation of 103.5 to 76.5 Ohm...thats a pretty loose spec. There are recommendations for sizing the termination resistors on the USB.org developers site with an admittance that the majority of USB devices are under terminated for an 'ideal' cable. So given the wide tolerance there is likely to be an impedance mismatch with most cables to a varying degree.
In addition to this there are specifications for signal rise time and differential signal propagation delay...too low a cable capacitance will cause too fast a rise time with overshoot(ringing) taking the signaling out-of-spec. There's also a timing delta tolerance between the + & - differential pair signals which given their close proximity and varying impedance characteristic due to the twist in the pair run alongside the power wires could have an effect....and then there's the need to operate them in both differential and command single ended mode as well as run them parallel to a 5v and ground rail...
How this can change the sound if at all I don't know but through experiment I've heard differences... the best so far being a cable as short as possible (gender changer), galvanic isolation and the use of a 5v battery to replace the Vbus line...
Spectral Morn
08-05-2013, 14:26
I'm in both camps over this, firstly, data transfer from a USB HDD is different to data transfer to a DAC. HDD is transferring block data using USB Bulk transfer mode IE: guaranteed, non time and bandwidth dependent delivery. The block data is ECC/CRC protected and an audio file is no different to a Word document as far as the HDD and transfer process is concerned. I have tried different USB HDD cables and just a small gender converter...there was no audible difference at all and I would say anybody 'hearing' a difference is not really hearing a difference. ;)
In your view only, but have you actually tried this and heard no difference/improvement? If not..... well..... I actually find your comment quite offensive as you indicate that 'anyone hearing a difference is not really hearing a difference' but how do you know? You are sort of suggesting that those who do are deluded. How are you so certain?
I can assure you I heard a difference/improvement in my set up which is why I ended up using the same type of USB cable as I have elsewhere in my set up for transfer at this point in the chain. You can quote technical specs and how the fundamentals work but I heard a difference and I tried quite a few types of cables from cheap throw away to Belkin Gold to Wireworld Ultraviolet and Starlight. With each better cable the sound was better. I came to this full of cynicism and a closed mind, there was no expectation bias just listening.
I find comments like the above very frustrating.....
Now if you said I have done these comparisons and I can't hear a difference in my set up I would say fair enough, but that only applies to you and your set up, therefore you can't take that and emphatically state that it does not make a difference in every set up as frankly that would be impossible to say - in my view. I hate the way cable discussions always end up going down this path.... very frustrating....
Regards Neil
Audioman
08-05-2013, 14:31
Some interesting contributions. So it would appear impedance, termination quality and electrical interference are likely factors in differences in USB to Dac connections. My problem is that this does not relate to cost but to good design and componentry which can be relatively inexpensive. My criticisms have been more to do with the night and day SQ changes claimed and the cost of TQ cable. My view is that cables can change the sound but differences or possibly improvements do not relate to the asking price.
The OP got a lot of stick on forums because he was perceived to over egg the differences claimed, gave the impression an unbelievably expensive product represented good value and the fact he got a loan cable from MCRU. The latter fact was interpreted that his judgement was influenced by this or he was purely acting as a marketing tool for the vendor.
realysm42
08-05-2013, 14:45
Well said Neil; I don't mind people having different views but telling me I've got to be wrong because xy and z of science says so? Come on.
I even stated in the original post that with a different system I didn't hear any difference with my mdac, hence me sending the tq back that time.
I've never discounted anyone else's experiences just because they might be different to my own. Abid people being rude about it? Just lol.
Re: shilling, people can shut the fuck up (not on here), every time I've done business with someone I've bigged them up if they've done good by me. I've only ever bought a tin of deoxit gold from Mark Grant and he got a shout for good service (sending it out to me before I paid so I got in time for the weekend, cheers matey!).
So what?
Someone else on here said it, credit given where its due. Dave's helped me out on tonnes of occasions and he's going to get the same shouts as anyone else.
In your view only, but have you actually tried this and heard no difference/improvement? If not..... well..... I actually find your comment quite offensive as you indicate that 'anyone hearing a difference is not really hearing a difference' but how do you know? You are sort of suggesting that those who do are deluded. How are you so certain?
Neil dont take offense, to answer you points;
Not in my view only, there is no mechanism that could change the block data coming of disk in a way that would affect sound quality unless the CRC/ECC is unable to correct the error and if thats the case then you have real problems and the OS will report the error.
Yes, I have tried this.
If you are hearing a difference with a different USB lead for the HDD then I can only think there is a ground plane interaction that may be the cause but then this would affect any USB cable that is used.
I can assure you I heard a difference/improvement in my set up which is why I ended up using the same type of USB cable as I have elsewhere in my set up for transfer at this point in the chain. You can quote technical specs and how the fundamentals work but I heard a difference and I tried quite a few types of cables from cheap throw away to Belkin Gold to Wireworld Ultraviolet and Starlight. With each better cable the sound was better. I came to this full of cynicism and a closed mind, there was no expectation bias just listening.
Fine, again don't take offense; Did you mean with each more expensive cable the sound got better? Is there any chance you tested these cable blind?
I find comments like the above very frustrating.....
Likewise I'm afraid.
Now if you said I have done these comparisons and I can't hear a difference in my set up I would say fair enough, but that only applies to you and your set up, therefore you can't take that and emphatically state that it does not make a difference in every set up as frankly that would be impossible to say - in my view. I hate the way cable discussions always end up going down this path.... very frustrating....
Regards Neil
I've tried three setups now. When audio came to the world of the computer I feared this sort of dialogue would start and you can see the effects of it on the likes of PFM. When we talk about block transfer data from HDD or from computer to computer over networks and wide area networks we are talking about a proven robust technology that has been in use throughout the world for many many decades. Data that gets transferred and delivered intact wrapped in multiple layers of error detection and correction, mechanisms that guarantee delivery and if data is lost mechanisms that will retransmit or retry the data. Our locally attached USB drives using bulk transfer mode have similar protection, the data gets delivered or it fails, there's no in between part and yet as soon as we enter the audio world all of a sudden the proven technology of reliable data transfer and error correction is ignored and a belief system replaces it.
Well said Neil; I don't mind people having different views but telling me I've got to be wrong because xy and z of science says so? Come on.
I even stated in the original post that with a different system I didn't hear any difference with my mdac, hence me sending the tq back that time.
I've never discounted anyone else's experiences just because they might be different to my own. Abid people being rude about it? Just lol.
Re: shilling, people can shut the fuck up (not on here), every time I've done business with someone I've bigged them up if they've done good by me. I've only ever bought a tin of deoxit gold from Mark Grant and he got a shout for good service (sending it out to me before I paid so I got in time for the weekend, cheers matey!).
So what?
Someone else on here said it, credit given where its due. Dave's helped me out on tonnes of occasions and he's going to get the same shouts as anyone else.
Martin you've misread what I typed. I believe there is a mechanism at play using Isochronous data transfer to the DAC, maybe for the observations about cables I made earlier. Or maybe because of the implementation at the DAC. What I disagree with vehemently is that an in spec. USB cable will change the sound and therefore the data read from an HDD, its along the same lines that an in spec. Cat 5e or whatever ethernet cable will affect the sound...
BTW, what you spend or how much you spend on anything is none of my business, its your money you do with it as you like.
Martin you've misread what I typed. I believe there is a mechanism at play using Isochronous data transfer to the DAC, maybe for the observations about cables I made earlier. Or maybe because of the implementation at the DAC. What I disagree with vehemently is that an in spec. USB cable will change the sound and therefore the data read from an HDD, its along the same lines that an in spec. Cat 5e or whatever ethernet cable will affect the sound...
BTW, what you spend or how much you spend on anything is none of my business, its your money you do with it as you like.
Not being funny Neal, are you saying that all USB cables sound the same?
Have you compared them in your system, or heard them in someone elses?
Feel I have to point out that USB Audio transmission not packet based in the same way as TCP/IP.
With isochronous transfers there is no retry or guaranty of delivery in the way that you would find with other transfer types, or something like Ethernet Cat5.
Also USB carries 5V power along the cable, maybe the case that a less than perfectly screened power line could affect the "signal" feed?
Some light reading RE: Cable induced Jitter
http://www.audiophilleo.com/docs/Dunn-AP-tn23.pdf
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter1_e.html
Given this, materials quality and standard of manufacture could possibly be a factor for hearing differences?
As you say though, we are all free to spend our money as we please, as we are free to believe what we wish without hearing it for ourseves first! ;)
realysm42
08-05-2013, 18:00
Martin you've misread what I typed. I believe there is a mechanism at play using Isochronous data transfer to the DAC, maybe for the observations about cables I made earlier. Or maybe because of the implementation at the DAC. What I disagree with vehemently is that an in spec. USB cable will change the sound and therefore the data read from an HDD, its along the same lines that an in spec. Cat 5e or whatever ethernet cable will affect the sound...
BTW, what you spend or how much you spend on anything is none of my business, its your money you do with it as you like.
Fair enough Neal, tbh (and apologies to you I should have been clear) it wasn't really aimed at this forum.
It's alright you and i don't agree; I can live and let live as your approach is reasonable. Just when people get condescending on subjective matters and accusational is a bit sad.
Spectral Morn
08-05-2013, 19:38
Neil dont take offense, to answer you points;
Not in my view only, there is no mechanism that could change the block data coming of disk in a way that would affect sound quality unless the CRC/ECC is unable to correct the error and if thats the case then you have real problems and the OS will report the error.
Yes, I have tried this.
If you are hearing a difference with a different USB lead for the HDD then I can only think there is a ground plane interaction that may be the cause but then this would affect any USB cable that is used.
Fine, again don't take offense; Did you mean with each more expensive cable the sound got better? Is there any chance you tested these cable blind?
Likewise I'm afraid.
I've tried three setups now. When audio came to the world of the computer I feared this sort of dialogue would start and you can see the effects of it on the likes of PFM. When we talk about block transfer data from HDD or from computer to computer over networks and wide area networks we are talking about a proven robust technology that has been in use throughout the world for many many decades. Data that gets transferred and delivered intact wrapped in multiple layers of error detection and correction, mechanisms that guarantee delivery and if data is lost mechanisms that will retransmit or retry the data. Our locally attached USB drives using bulk transfer mode have similar protection, the data gets delivered or it fails, there's no in between part and yet as soon as we enter the audio world all of a sudden the proven technology of reliable data transfer and error correction is ignored and a belief system replaces it.
Hi Neal
It would have been great if you had offered these qualifications from the off. Your post came across as a - sorry to say - a usual example of objectavist negativity towards subjectavists and all subjectavists are deluded, the sort of thing I find very frustrating.
I accept that measurements etc are important but in my experience listening trumps measurements and the two should, nay must go hand in hand when designing audio gear, even cables.
However were the cables you tried audiophile ones or just off the shelf bog standard ones? I didn't do any blind tests - not that I am totally opposed to those just impossible to do when you are on your own.
I heard fairly pronounced differences with three laptops an Acer, a Fujitsu and a Sony and two different makes of HD drive. I must say I did feel that the esata connection sounded best of all but only one of the laptops had an esata input and as its my main laptop I didn't want to tie it up into an audio set up.
The test was done with all the same cables with all three laptops and the results were that the two Wireworld cables sounded better than the Belkin Gold, standard Belkin and cheapie cables and the Starlight had slightly more transparency than the Ultraviolet. I will concede that the USB cables used between HDD and laptop did not produce quite as big a difference as they did between the laptop and DAC but there were differences/improvements and for me they were big enough to justify using a Starlight between HDD and laptop as I am to the iUSB Power and then into the DAC.
I had a closed mind about computer audio and what did what so I approached it with no preconceived ideas re sound/technology - frankly the only one I had was that computer audio was the devil and I wanted nothing to do with it. Not because of sound but because it - in my mind - spells the death of the physical.
Regards Neil
Not being funny Neal, are you saying that all USB cables sound the same?
Have you compared them in your system, or heard them in someone elses?
No, not at all. I thought I'd made that clear. Yes, I've been playing with USB cables a lot recently along with galvanic isolation and separate Vbus power.
Feel I have to point out that USB Audio transmission not packet based in the same way as TCP/IP.
With isochronous transfers there is no retry or guaranty of delivery in the way that you would find with other transfer types, or something like Ethernet Cat5.
Also USB carries 5V power along the cable, maybe the case that a less than perfectly screened power line could affect the "signal" feed?
Some light reading RE: Cable induced Jitter
http://www.audiophilleo.com/docs/Dunn-AP-tn23.pdf
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter1_e.html
Given this, materials quality and standard of manufacture could possibly be a factor for hearing differences?
As you say though, we are all free to spend our money as we please, as we are free to believe what we wish without hearing it for ourseves first! ;)
Yes I know all that, Again I don't think people read what I typed.
Edit: actually it is packet based but yes not in the same manner as TCP/IP
http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb4.shtml#Isochronous
yup, usb is packet based but not in the same way as TCP/IP.
Just to say I had enjoyable afternoon at Martins yesterday spent time listening to some good tunes and the TQ USB.
Over the years I have listened to many USB cables and it was the first time I had heard the TQ.
For my own sanity I took along a control cable for a comparison.
The TQ has a definite sonic signature which made it very ease to identify.
I would like to start by saying Martins PC server set up is very quiet with lower noise floor which makes indentifying any differences between components quite straight forward.
TQ's graphite USB cable delivers a clean open sound with strong bass characteristics, a fixed centre image and a quiet back ground.
The control cable was more relaxed and fluid in presentation' it lacked the overall detail and total bass depth of the TQ. Though it produced a more textured mid band and displayed a greater sound stage.
Which one you prefer is down to the individual listening nothing more.
Make no mistake the differences where clear and audible also repeatable as well.
The question is why are there differences after all cables only transfer data which is virtually incorruptible.
Some of the reasons have been touched on within this thread.
One interesting item did come out of the afternoons session the quality of ripped files does some what tenuous at best.
My thanks to Martin and his brother Steve for their hospitality
Tony
realysm42
19-05-2013, 11:48
Thanks for taking the time to come round and the above post Tony.
It was an interesting afternoon, I think Tony's covered the proceedings pretty well (the TQ USB is staying in the chain).
It was gob smacking how much better music that's been downloaded sounds than ripped (via dbpoweramp, ape format, secure checks etc); I don't think I'll buy another CD if I can find the downloadable version (in a lossless format, not mp3, I hasten to add).
Another conversation for another thread, perhaps.
What are you ripping them with Martin? Ripped files differ greatly as you have discovered, even EAC can give differing results depending on the profile used. Then there is the equipment used to carry out the rip - two apparently similar FLAC files ripped from the same CD can produce differing results ;)
realysm42
19-05-2013, 12:45
What are you ripping them with Martin? Ripped files differ greatly as you have discovered, even EAC can give differing results depending on the profile used. Then there is the equipment used to carry out the rip - two apparently similar FLAC files ripped from the same CD can produce differing results ;)
Dbpoweramp, ape, high compression ( I know your views on compression), secure.
I've bought a cheapo Samsung external drive to do the job.
I've reached the point where the line has to be drawn somewhere (as in, I could drive myself mad with constantly optimising and learning). I'm going to rip them like this and be done with it :eek:
Martin
You guys did it and published Mr C's experience. Great. He thought it sounded different which confirms your experience.
So if you are looking for a different sound try a TQ Graphite USB cable.
His description was useful and if I was looking for such a cable would help me decide to try it more than
it's incredible.
Later
realysm42
20-05-2013, 12:09
Glad I could help, whatsnext.
Glad I could help, whatsnext.
You took me off your Ignore list. Cheers
Whats next? Not much I'm thinking of changing my speaker cables from TQ Black.
i tried different "bit perfect" ripping software (inc DBPoweramp and EAC) and found JRiver to sound the best to my ears.
All checked as "secure" rips.
File another one under the "go figure" section. :)
An interesting test on USB cables in this months News, ten cables tested from £18 to £6500.
Also PM goes into detail about the procedure and methodology used in conducting the tests.
i tried different "bit perfect" ripping software (inc DBPoweramp and EAC) and found JRiver to sound the best to my ears.
All checked as "secure" rips.
File another one under the "go figure" section. :)
Which presumably has implications for the logic that all bit perfect players must sound identical....
£6500 for a USB cable? These people should learn to live on dole money for a year - They couldn't I'm sure!
Apologies Mr C, I bet Ab Sounds imports this cable (I'll find out soon enough) and since this rag is now the Ab Sounds mouthpiece for all things expensive and bling........... :(
I'd better grab me coat sharpish and scuttle back under my stone..
realysm42
20-05-2013, 16:40
£6500 for a USB cable? These people should learn to live on dole money for a year - They couldn't I'm sure!
Apologies Mr C, I bet Ab Sounds imports this cable (I'll find out soon enough) and since this rag is now the Ab Sounds mouthpiece for all things expensive and bling........... :(
I'd better grab me coat sharpish and scuttle back under my stone..
Why should they learn to live on the dole for a year?
Which presumably has implications for the logic that all bit perfect players must sound identical....
Well..they don't, that's the thing. :eyebrows:
Well..they don't, that's the thing. :eyebrows:
That's for sure but there are places you can visit where you'd be derided for such revolutionary ideas!
Ali Tait
20-05-2013, 18:29
Haven't all revolutionary ideas been derided at least in part?
Human nature..
Interesting reading hifi news today, now what would some of you have said/wrote to martin if he had bought a £6.5k usb cable, it was bad enough paying £450 judging from the reaction he received :)
Justification indeed that the TQ USB is maybe good value for what it achieves :ner:
I cannot imagine ever changing mine. Unless of course there is a black diamond usb planned Colin?
Why should they learn to live on the dole for a year?
If you need to ask this question David, there really is no hope for you sir :lol:
realysm42
20-05-2013, 18:46
If you need to ask this question David, there really is no hope for you sir :lol:
My name is Martin.
No go on, humour me?
I think what Frank, I mean David is saying is that some people need to re-attach with the true value of money.
Sorry, was thinking of MCRU when I posted. The answer to your question should be obvious if you're willing to look at a bit of wire with wanky plugs on it costing £6500!
I sincerely hope you all stay in well paid work and don't have the hell of living on a pittance for a while should you be made redundant, 'cos it ain't a good place to be for many many reasons, lack of money being the obvious one, although the hit to one's self esteem hurts harder and takes longer to deal with. If you have done so, it kinda makes a £450 USB wire look rather excessive I'm afraid, even though you claim to hear a genuine improvement in using one - I'd love to know what's really going on here and I look forward to reading the PM review in 'News for some sort of answers as to what exactly is happening in the digital domain.
realysm42
20-05-2013, 19:03
Should this, should that; why does everyone tell everyone else how to behave on forums? Its puzzling.
If it ain't you spending the money, why worry? £6,500 is a lot to spend (as is £450, granted) but so what, my life , my money, my choice. I don't judge anyone else for the choices they make, or try to provide financial/moral advice.
Live and let live.
Sorry, was thinking of MCRU when I posted. The answer to your question should be obvious if you're willing to look at a bit of wire with wanky plugs on it costing £6500!
I sincerely hope you all stay in well paid work and don't have the hell of living on a pittance for a while should you be made redundant, 'cos it ain't a good place to be for many many reasons, lack of money being the obvious one, although the hit to one's self esteem hurts harder and takes longer to deal with. If you have done so, it kinda makes a £450 USB wire look rather excessive I'm afraid, even though you claim to hear a genuine improvement in using one - I'd love to know what's really going on here and I look forward to reading the PM review in 'News for some sort of answers as to what exactly is happening in the digital domain.
I guess that fun is still possible
Should this, should that; why does everyone tell everyone else how to behave on forums? Its puzzling.
If it ain't you spending the money, why worry? £6,500 is a lot to spend (as is £450, granted) but so what, my life , my money, my choice. I don't judge anyone else for the choices they make, or try to provide financial/moral advice.
Live and let live.
Perzactly... ;)
Regardless of personal views as to what you should spend, or not spend, the genius of Tellurium Q is that their cables change the sound, in a good way for many systems and ears, which cannot be said for the vast majority of cable, which sounds pretty much the same.
Regardless of personal views as to what you should spend, or not spend, the genius of Tellurium Q is that their cables change the sound, in a good way for many systems and ears, which cannot be said for the vast majority of cable, which sounds pretty much the same.
:clapclapclap::clapclapclap::clapclapclap:
TQ cables are designed to introduce a pleasing COLOURATION not a higher fidelity. Crowd pleasers with their "sound". Get your self some narrow band tone controls.
Regardless of personal views as to what you should spend, or not spend, the genius of Tellurium Q is that their cables change the sound, in a good way for many systems and ears, which cannot be said for the vast majority of cable, which sounds pretty much the same.
Good HiFi cables should not change the sound.
TQ cables are designed to introduce a pleasing COLOURATION not a higher fidelity. Crowd pleasers with their "sound". Get your self some narrow band tone controls.
and how would you know that, you did not design them :steam:
Good HiFi cables should not change the sound.
pish
Can I pipe in? The cables are either designed with the colouration of the sound in mind, or it was a rather useful but unplanned discovery. Personally, with the amount of research that goes into these things its surely got to be the former, in which case Alan might be onto something.
Ali Tait
20-05-2013, 20:45
Can all the folk here who own any TQ stuff say whether they think it colours the sound or not?
pish
We both forgot to say In My Humble Opinion. So Id better say it now.
You have a very well reasoned point there slr.
Good HiFi cables should not change the sound.
I completely agree, although of course the reality is that they all do, to varying degrees. Ideally, however, all an audio cable should do is pass the signal from one piece of equipment to another, in an as unadulterated a state as possible. It's not the job of a cable to sonically change anything.
David, I think you should take a chill pill. You're too close to this because you sell the cable concerned.
Alan's perfectly entitled to his (subjective) opinion of the TQ cable in question, which of course is all it is. He's not proclaiming any inside knowledge of its actual design.
Marco.
and how would you know that, you did not design them :steam:
Personal attack not reasoned argument to the point about cables.
and how would you know that, you did not design them :steam:
Living with them for over a year.
Good HiFi cables should not change the sound.
I agree to an extent having used TQ myself, but I find my LFD cables are more refined without introducing colourations. Thus they do change the sound relative to other cables I've used.
There's a difference, though, Neil between cables that change the sound subjectively in your system, which could occur for a number of reasons (synergy with other components, etc), and those that have been designed objectively, by the manufacturer, to alter the signal in some way.
*If*, and I only say IF because I don't know for certain, TQ cables come into the latter category, then they are most certainly not something I would ever use, as their design would go against my purist principles.
I think we need to remind ourselves what the term 'High Fidelity' means: that is fidelity (faithfulness) to the original sound. Therefore, how can a cable which deliberately, through design, alters the sound in some way, be given such a label? IF that's what TQ cables are doing, and you like the resulting sonic effect, then use them, by all means, but it's not hi-fi, any more than the use of a graphic equaliser is.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
20-05-2013, 22:16
and how would you know that, you did not design them :steam:
That would be the evolving consensus about the cables and no I haven't heard them but those I know who have, who's ears I trust, are telling me that.
It seems to be a suck it and see scenario, if it suits your system then great but it seems to be system dependant and anyone thinking of buying it should try first. The general consensus is TQ cables are fussy and do have a characteristic which may gel with a system or not as the case may be.
Regards Neil
Can all the folk here who own any TQ stuff say whether they think it colours the sound or not?
Not to my ears :)
(speaker cable and interconnect owner)
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 04:53
Well that was my impression, just wondered what other folk thought.
Not to my ears :)
Nice edit, Gaz! :lol: :respect:
Marco.
P.S we need to chat about your mains thang...
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 07:20
Nice edit, Gaz! :lol: :respect:
Marco.
P.S we need to chat about your mains thang...
:D
Cable designs worth their salt should try and remove themselves as much as possible from the reply chain.
Those that do not merely act as tone controls, in which case you may wish to purchase a graphic equalizer this has the same effect I believe.
Cable designs worth their salt should try and remove themselves as much as possible from the reply chain.
Those that do not merely act as tone controls, in which case you may wish to purchase a graphic equalizer this has the same effect I believe.
Finally a sensible comment from one of our Trade members - AoS (from my personal perception) seems to be going a bit What Hi-Fi right now, with hidden agenda's and manipulation going on in order to sell product.
Anyway, just ignore me, I'm a Luddite!
:sofa:
Finally a sensible comment from one of our Trade members - AoS (from my personal perception) seems to be going a bit What Hi-Fi right now, with hidden agenda's and manipulation going on in order to sell product.
Not sure about that, Tim, but there's defo a bit of a TQ/mains regen love-in happenin'... S'up to folk if they want to jump on that bus. Me? I think I'll swerve it ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 08:11
Where are the hidden agendas? David may promote stuff, but he's running a business and needs to make a living.
I have TQ speaker cable and I/C, all of which were bought secondhand BTW.
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 08:14
Not heard any regen stuff in my system, but I'm happy with what the balanced transformer does.
I've always used cables as a subtle tone control to balance my system and room. As an extreme example from the past, if you want little but tight bass and loads of sparkly treble then use Nordost Red Dawn. (yes, there are resolution and other changes too)
But do TQ cables colour the sound is a tricky question, I've not heard any so I can't say. It's tricky because there are people around who will say that cables don't have any affect on the sound. They will say that on another board but when they come here they don't say this for some reason. Most with this point of view probably can't abide AoS so they don't normally post here.
If you believe cables don't affect the sound then TQ cables doing this is worrying for you.
If you believe cables do affect the sound then you may be concerned they do this to too great a degree. Is this what's being asked in this part of the thread? If so it's kind of difficult to quantify, just about an impossible question to answer. Maybe I've misunderstood.
David may promote stuff, but he's running a business and needs to make a living.
Absolutely and I agree that's totally accepted, I don't have a problem with that at all Ali, it just all seems a bit too loud and proud at the moment - what is the AoS community, a collection of audio enthusiasts or a store front?
Anyway, I won't say any-more and its just my humble opinion, but I suspect I may not be alone in this thinking.
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 08:47
Oh aye, I don't entirely disagree, I was just speaking from the point of view of someone who uses TQ, didn't buy it from David, bought it secondhand so can't be accused of shilling it, but thinks it's good speaker cable. Certainly better than anything else I've tried so far.
Audioman
21-05-2013, 09:00
Have we got away from the original subject of this thread ?
I won't argue that cables sound different. My view is that the differences are subtle compared with changing source, amplifiers or speakers. I can quite understand the point of using them to fine tune the sound. The problem is this does not necessarily relate to price or mean different is better.
Take the cables under discussion which I have not heard. It is quite possible that for some reason different is being interpreted as better to some listeners. If 'sounds different' can be marketed as 'better' in some systems then this is used to ask a price which is way out of proportion with their physical value.
Also we need to understand why some people are convinced these are better. That is better than what and are they better because they mask some other deficiency in a component? I will be interested in the HFN review that is looking at USB cables up to £6500 :eek:. Hopefully Paul Miller will provide technical figures on the various cables.
As far as regeneration is concerned results logically will depend on location. One thing is obvious is that product designed for the competitive IT market costs a fraction of product from hi-fi specialists. Technical and safety concerns raised by some qualified electricians make me wary of using 'of the shelf' balanced mains boxes.
Also anybody with a direct financial interest in products under discussion should be excluded unless they can provide some relevant technical information. Unfortunately with cables this is usually sadly lacking apart from marketing gobbledygook .
Some good discussion points being aired.
Thought. If a cable manufacturer products a range of cables with a house sound (whatever it is) does this happen by design/engineering/careful component selection, deliberate actions unknown to us or by accident?
If those cables produce a house sound does it allow as close to transparent transfer of the signal or altered by the house sound (coloured)?
As for those who attack the poster - it beats having a meaningful understanding or useful postive contribution they wish to bring to a discussion.
I've kept my TQ Black speaker cables, I'm just not blindly in love with them. I haven't tried any of their other cables, nor feel curious. In fact a nice simple, renouned for its transparency to the signal interconnect has arrived this AM to replace the sparkly jobbie connecting my CD to the amp.
Yes this thread sums up why AOS is my favourite forum. Whilst Martin has felt a bit challenged at times this thread is balanced and informative without descending into outright insults from a flurry of members revolving around how we're all fools, and that none of this stuff can possibly make a difference.
Absolutely and I agree that's totally accepted, I don't have a problem with that at all Ali, it just all seems a bit too loud and proud at the moment - what is the AoS community, a collection of audio enthusiasts or a store front?
I have more than a little sympathy with that view. Unfortunately, what you get with Brooky is 'loud and proud' (framed in neon lights, with medallions around them, blinkedy-blink) - 'e don't do things any other way! He's probably got a chest wig too, somewhere... :eyebrows: Anyway, we've been here before, so I'm sure he won't take offence to that.
However, what you also get with David is impeccable (and I mean impeccable) levels of service, as someone who is extremely enthusiastic and eager to please his customers, and in my book, those are enviable qualities - certainly by no means evident in every dealer these days.
Therefore, you know what you get with Daftee David, so it's entirely up to folk whether they want to use him or not. The only thing I would say to him, apart from trying to reign in the blatant salesmanship a bit, is to be thick-skinned to criticism of any products he sells.
You simply have to accept that people disliking some of the stuff you sell is part of existing in the real word as a dealer. More often than not it is praise that comes David's way, so when it's the opposite (as it was with the TQ cables), he has to learn to take it on the chin, and not react like he did yesterday towards Alan.
That said, I'm more than happy to have him here as a trade member and definitely consider him as of the industry's good guys! :cool:
Marco.
Nice edit, Gaz! :lol: :respect:
Marco.
P.S we need to chat about your mains thang...
:D
PM me mate when its a good time to do that.
ta.
Gizza bell now if yer free :)
Marco.
Returning to the subject of TQ cables, could someone 'in the know' verify whether carbon is used in their design? If so, that might explain a few things...
Marco.
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 10:13
Don't think anyone knows,, and those that do ain't tellin' mate.
It's what I've heard from a good source. If you've messed around with carbon vs. metal-film resistors, inside kit (which you probably have), you'll know what I'm getting at... ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 10:27
Yep, I usually prefer carbons myself, certainly on stepped attenuators. I found metals to sharp and zingy. Carbons sound more natural to me.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 10:27
I don't?
Yep, I usually prefer carbons myself, certainly on stepped attenuators. I found metals to sharp and zingy. Carbons sound more natural to me.
Mmm... I have an alternative view (although, as usual, much depends on the circuit in question and sonic signature of the partnering system), but I'll save my thoughts on that matter for another thread ;)
Marco.
Don't think anyone knows,, and those that do ain't tellin' mate.
According to the designer Colin he is not allowed to reveal anything.
Returning to the subject of TQ cables, could someone 'in the know' verify whether carbon is used in their design? If so, that might explain a few things...
Marco.
Marco
They have a policy to reveal nothing about their design/manufacturer straight from Mr Wonfor.
I am not allowed to discuss anything about the cable or electronic construction.
This order comes from the directors and shareholders of TQ.
Don't think anyone knows,, and those that do ain't tellin' mate.
I'm sure it will necessarily remain that way also! But in (not quite an) answer to Marco's question, it might be worth knowing that TQ build their cables from the ground up, even specifying their own alloys from a foundry (so certain, unspecified elements could be present). Bare custom made cable is then insulated and constructed in house, using machinery sometimes bought for just a single product in their range.
Nothing they make is off the shelf, or merely assembled. I speak as someone who is a friend of the designer, and an occasional visitor to the 'eagles nest'. I admit their gear is expensive by the time a customer gets near it, but these are not speaker cables and I/Cs from Belden, nor are they £5 USB cables with a pretty sheaf (some of which have active components as well).
I don't own the TQ USB cable, but am very pleased with my second hand black I/Cs and Black speaker cable (which i do not find to be coloured, BTW). I also use one of the designer's previous amp designs, a single ended class A jobbie.
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 11:40
Must be a system dependent thang, I too find them uncoloured, in fact that's what I like about them, they present a cleaner and clearer picture of the music to my ears.
A cleaner clearer picture can be due to an emphasis in the upper mid region of the frequency range. That is an emphasis by level above the level of frequencies below and above that point - a possible colouration, much appreciated of course.
or it could just be clearer...
both possible. :)
Heard from someone who knows...the cable construction is different from "normal" speaker cable.
They've seen it.
My view is that if the Company doesn't want to reveal it then we should respect that?
TQ don't seem the type out to fleece their customers, Colin W's been in the game too long for that.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 12:58
If you won't tell us, you've got something to hide!
Yeah.
If you won't tell us, you've got something to hide!
Yeah.
Naa..
just know how protective you need to be with your own IP. :ner:
twickers
21-05-2013, 13:24
There is a way to find out the construction, but you'll need a 'volunteer'.:eyebrows:
Nobody has mentioned phase and TQ cables.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 13:28
There is a way to find out the construction, but you'll need a 'volunteer'.:eyebrows:
Cutting something up will only show you so much.
@Whatsnext, you just did.
Nobody has mentioned phase and TQ cables.
Can a "simple" piece of wire alter phase? If so presumably high capacitance or inductance would be involved. Do they publish specs? If not, it's easily measurable.
Phase changes might explain why results seem to be quite system dependent.
Audioman
21-05-2013, 13:33
Cutting something up will only show you so much.
@Whatsnext, you just did.
It will show you what it's made from - magic fairy dust or bog standard wire. :)
twickers
21-05-2013, 13:50
Cutting something up will only show you so much.
@Whatsnext, you just did.
At least you might find out if it's as special as the price?
realysm42
21-05-2013, 13:51
Yes, but, 'what' its made from and 'how' its made are two different things.
If it was...different...would the lynch mob be satisfied? ;)
realysm42
21-05-2013, 14:18
I don't think there's any satisfying them :eek:
Yep, I usually prefer carbons myself, certainly on stepped attenuators. I found metals to sharp and zingy. Carbons sound more natural to me.
Mmm... I have an alternative view (although, as usual, much depends on the circuit in question and sonic signature of the partnering system), but I'll save my thoughts on that matter for another thread...
In the interests of clarity, I should qualify my above statement. The point I'm making is to guard against absolutism and blinkered dogma, and incidentally, Ali, I'm not accusing you of preaching either. The reason why I stated the above is because my Croft preamp, for example, is chock full of (high quality) metal-film resistors, and I'm pretty sure that those who've heard it would agree with me that "sharp and zingy" sounding it ain't...! :trust:
Do you see my point? One must guard against generalising. As usual, when it comes to component choice within a circuit, it's all about implementation, as you're essentially dealing with combining 'flavours' (sonic signatures) of the various components used, and thus how amplifiers are 'voiced'.
In my experience, however, and yours obviously differs somewhat, introducing carbon into the equation rarely results in genuine sonic improvements. Yes, the sound, as a result, is often easier on the ear (subjectively more 'natural' sounding), but rarely, IME, more accurate, as in introducing less coloration.
Aside from my Croft preamp, another valid example (of many) I've had with carbon would be going from a carbon-based volume pot, such as an Alps, to a high-quality stepped attenuator, which uses the best metal-film resistors. The former, to my ears, always sounds 'sat on', dynamically, in comparison with the latter, and rather 'opaque'. Consequently, in the right circuit, the sonic improvement is very easily heard when moving from an Alps pot to a quality stepper, which to my ears, always succeeds in 'opening the window' more.
IMHO, carbon has an intrinsic sonic signature, no matter where it is used in audio applications, and its benefits will only be appreciated in certain circumstances, which if carbon is part of the ingredients that make up TQ cables, is perhaps why their effect divides opinions. What if, for example, as with some well-known Van den Hul cables, TQ cables are carbon-based and don’t use metal (solely) as a conductor? Perhaps that might explain their 'distinctive' sound?
Read about VDH's 'Carbon and Hybrid Technology' here: http://www.vandenhul.com/cable-technologies/carbon-and-hybrid-technology
Perhaps TQ have taken a leaf out of their book?
In any case, I've experimented in this area so much that my ears have now become attuned to the extent that I can usually identify the 'signature' of a carbon volume pot (or extensive use of carbon resistors in an amplifier) without being prompted. Like I said, however, nothing is written in stone, and I've also heard the opposite effect with carbon and metal-film, which you have correctly described.
Like the old saying goes: it's not what you've got, but how you use it! ;)
Marco.
If it was...different...would the lynch mob be satisfied? ;)
I don't think there's any satisfying them :eek:
The behaviour of some people is so strange though rarely here I have to say. Elsewhere I'm involved with 3 threads on hifi, I've come to the conclusion that a few individuals have real problems, they are angry, possibly unfulfilled, maybe they have an unhappy time at work or home. So they take refuge in being unpleasant on fora. There must be the opportunity for physiologists to write book on this phenomenon. Maybe what we need a a box to click on, "if you need help click here" and you can chat online to a physiologist. They could charge for their time and a cut could go to the forum in question too,
A cleaner clearer picture can be due to an emphasis in the upper mid region of the frequency range. That is an emphasis by level above the level of frequencies below and above that point - a possible colouration, much appreciated of course.
Yes which can be induced by altering the output impedance / damping factor of the amplifier. Many 'speakers feature a rising impedance with frequency, when used with an amplifier that has a poor damping factor the rising 'speaker impedance with frequency causes an output level imbalance in the amplifier response which highlights the higher frequencies. The worse the damping factor the more noticeable this level with frequency imbalance becomes. Adding a 'speaker cable with some series resistance will alter the damping factor sufficiently to cause an audible effect.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 14:59
Clive, I had a read of that jriver thread, there's so much angst in there is genuinely sad.
I'm not pretending I've never got caught up in those kind of 'discussions' but damn, whatever happened to enjoying the hobby?!
Tbh I only went on there with the tq thread to see how they'd react but then got wound up by the behaviours shown. Lesson learnt for me ha ha!
The behaviour of some people is so strange though rarely here I have to say. Elsewhere I'm involved with 3 threads on hifi, I've come to the conclusion that a few individuals have real problems, they are angry, possibly unfulfilled, maybe they have an unhappy time at work or home. So they take refuge in being unpleasant on fora. There must be the opportunity for physiologists to write book on this phenomenon. Maybe what we need a a box to click on, "if you need help click here" and you can chat online to a physiologist. They could charge for their time and a cut could go to the forum in question too,
Hahahaha - how true... I could think of a few well-known characters for whom that description fits like a glove! :lol:
Care to name the forums in question? The difference is, we wouldn't allow such behaviour!
Marco.
People have forgotten how to have a real 'discussion' with the advent of the internet. Thats on both sides, the defenders of (in this instance) a crazy priced USB cable and the nay-sayers.
One side cries about people being horrible when in most cases the comments are a little sarcastic and the other side shout and bawl about the fact they are so right and the others are so wrong.
Put these conversations in the real world and none of you would be so sniffy about the other side's opinion (or purchase). Also, the discussion would be over in an hour tops and the common concensus of opinion would be to agree to disagree.
It's all the internet's fault.
People have forgotten how to have a real 'discussion' with the advent of the internet. Thats on both sides, the defenders of (in this instance) a crazy priced USB cable and the nay-sayers.
One side cries about people being horrible when in most cases the comments are a little sarcastic and the other side shout and bawl about the fact they are so right and the others are so wrong.
Put these conversations in the real world and none of you would be so sniffy about the other side's opinion (or purchase). Also, the discussion would be over in an hour tops and the common concensus of opinion would be to agree to disagree.
It's all the internet's fault.
There are differences though in how this discussion has run here and on PFM. On PFM the discussion got rather unpleasant. Interestingly there are 2 or 3 people posting on both fora, it seems their posting style and vociferousness changes according the forum - playground behaviour.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 15:09
Fair point Myles, I won't blame the internet for my conduct, that's my responsibility.
Tbh, I wanted to take the piss a bit because of some of the shit they came out with. Childish would be a good description for both sides.
Its all good, they'll go that way, I'll go this...
***edit*** I agree Clive, funny that isn't it.
There are differences though in how this discussion has run here and on PFM. On PFM the discussion got rather unpleasant. Interestingly there are 2 or 3 people posting on both fora, it seems their posting style and vociferousness changes according the forum - playground behaviour.
It wouldn't happen in a real playground, honestly. The screen and keyboard protective cloak turn usually sensible folk into raving idiots. Me also sometimes.
What was the Jriver thread?
JimH over there usually keeps things ticking along..
It wouldn't happen in a real playground, honestly. The screen and keyboard protective cloak turn usually sensible folk into raving idiots. Me also sometimes.
It does, but it tends to be more a female behaviour and what's more some the mums never grow out of it.
What was the Jriver thread?
JimH over there usually keeps things ticking along..
Jriver/Jplay
Turntable comparison
Hahaha - how true! Care to name the forums in question? The difference is, we wouldn't allow such behaviour!
Marco.
Apart from PFM I know where you're thinking of but there's little hifi discussion there so I wasn't counting that.
Lol...So who are the 'bad boys' there, turned 'good boys' here? :eyebrows:
Marco.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 15:31
I'll leave it for them to say if they want.
Come on then, fess up. I promise you won't get yer botties spanked! :spank: :lol:
Marco.
Hi Neal,
Many 'speakers feature a rising impedance with frequency, when used with an amplifier that has a poor damping factor the rising 'speaker impedance with frequency causes an output level imbalance in the amplifier response which highlights the higher frequencies. The worse the damping factor the more noticeable this level with frequency imbalance becomes. Adding a 'speaker cable with some series resistance will alter the damping factor sufficiently to cause an audible effect.
Sounds like a feasible reason for perhaps why the sonic effect of TQ speaker cables is rather variable :)
I still suspect that carbon features somewhere in their design, utilised in a similar way to VDH, with their cables, (as linked to earlier).
Marco.
Spectral Morn
21-05-2013, 15:56
Hi Neal,
Sounds like a feasible reason for perhaps why the sonic effect of TQ speaker cables is rather variable :)
I still suspect that carbon features somewhere in their design, utilised in a similar way to VDH, with their cables, (as linked to earlier).
Marco.
I recall when the VDH First and the Second came out that I just could not get them to work - to my satisfaction, music and the systems tried in sounded wrong - in any system in the shop I worked in at the time, but some of those who tried them bought them but many didn't.
Indeed some of what I have heard and read said about TQ does sound a bit like how I recall VDH carbon cables sounding. However whether TQ uses carbon or not is pure speculation, and as I doubt TQ will say, the only way to find out is a mole lol or someone cuts a cable up and I can't see that happening.
Regards Neil
I recall when the VDH First and the Second came out that I just could not get them to work - to my satisfaction, music and the systems tried in sounded wrong - in any system in the shop I worked in at the time, but some of those who tried them bought them but many didn't.
Indeed some of what I have heard and read said about TQ does sound a bit like how I recall VDH carbon cables sounding. However whether TQ uses carbon or not is pure speculation, and as I doubt TQ will say, the only way to find out is a mole lol or someone cuts a cable up and I can't see that happening.
Regards Neil
Paul Miller cuts them up after he has reviewed them (some of his cable reviews I believe but not all apart from maybe the £6.5k USB cable). If one cuts open a cable to see what it is made from what would one do with the information anyway as it's what it sounds like that matters. Personally I couldn't care less what a cable is made from as long as performance is commensurate with price. :)
Personally I couldn't care less what a cable is made from as long as performance is commensurate with price.
Unfortunately that's rarely the case in high-end audio, where price is usually commensurate with what the market will stand, or rather what some daftees with more money than sense will pay, lol!
When you start coming up with £6.5k price tags for a USB cable (or ANY cable), one is firmly in the land of lunacy!! :mental:
For me, it's all about Sound Per Pound Value, not Pound Per Sound Value....... ;)
Marco.
Unfortunately that's rarely the case in high-end audio, where price is usually commensurate with what the market will stand, or rather what some daftees with more money than sense will pay, lol!
When you start coming up with £6.5k price tags for a USB cable (or ANY cable), one is firmly in the land of lunacy!! :mental:
For me, it's all about Sound Per Pound Value, not Pound Per Sound Value....... ;)
Marco.
For £6500 I would expect Norah Jones to be stood in front of me in person singing! :lol:
Stratmangler
21-05-2013, 16:38
For £6500 I would expect Norah Jones to be stood in front of me in person singing! :lol:
Did someone mention Snorah? :zzz:
Did someone mention Snorah? :zzz:
:yesbruv:
Ali Tait
21-05-2013, 16:50
In the interests of clarity, I should qualify my above statement. The point I'm making is to guard against absolutism and blinkered dogma, and incidentally, Ali, I'm not accusing you of preaching either. The reason why I stated the above is because my Croft preamp, for example, is chock full of (high quality) metal-film resistors, and I'm pretty sure that those who've heard it would agree with me that "sharp and zingy" sounding it ain't...! :trust:
Do you see my point? One must guard against generalising. As usual, when it comes to component choice within a circuit, it's all about implementation, as you're essentially dealing with combining 'flavours' (sonic signatures) of the various components used, and thus how amplifiers are 'voiced'.
In my experience, however, and yours obviously differs somewhat, introducing carbon into the equation rarely results in genuine sonic improvements. Yes, the sound, as a result, is often easier on the ear (subjectively more 'natural' sounding), but rarely, IME, more accurate, as in introducing less coloration.
Aside from my Croft preamp, another valid example (of many) I've had with carbon would be going from a carbon-based volume pot, such as an Alps, to a high-quality stepped attenuator, which uses the best metal-film resistors. The former, to my ears, always sounds 'sat on', dynamically, in comparison with the latter, and rather 'opaque'. Consequently, in the right circuit, the sonic improvement is very easily heard when moving from an Alps pot to a quality stepper, which to my ears, always succeeds in 'opening the window' more.
IMHO, carbon has an intrinsic sonic signature, no matter where it is used in audio applications, and its benefits will only be appreciated in certain circumstances, which if carbon is part of the ingredients that make up TQ cables, is perhaps why their effect divides opinions. What if, for example, as with some well-known Van den Hul cables, TQ cables are carbon-based and don’t use metal (solely) as a conductor? Perhaps that might explain their 'distinctive' sound?
Read about VDH's 'Carbon and Hybrid Technology' here: http://www.vandenhul.com/cable-technologies/carbon-and-hybrid-technology
Perhaps TQ have taken a leaf out of their book?
In any case, I've experimented in this area so much that my ears have now become attuned to the extent that I can usually identify the 'signature' of a carbon volume pot (or extensive use of carbon resistors in an amplifier) without being prompted. Like I said, however, nothing is written in stone, and I've also heard the opposite effect with carbon and metal-film, which you have correctly described.
Like the old saying goes: it's not what you've got, but how you use it! ;)
Marco.
I can only speak from my experience mate, and having fitted stepped attenuators in both carbon and metal film to the Pre 2 I used to have, I preferred the carbons in that particular situation. I'm not generalising at all, I have used metal films in other applicationswhere I preferred them to carbons. There are just too many variables to blindly say one is better than the other IMHO.
Going from an Alps to a good stepper of any type will be a big upgrade I think.
One thought occurs, do you play vinyl mostly? That could be the reason you like the metal films.
I only use digital, which may explain my carbon preference.
Regarding the threads mentioned on pfm, I see deaf old Serge is still at it on the 'Turntables comparison' thread... When it comes to appreciating hi-fi, he makes a good plumber.
Honestly, if there's one area in audio, other than with loudspeakers, where veritable HUMUNGOUS sonic differences exist, it's when comparing turntables, especially when those in question feature totally different drive systems, plinths, suspensions or lack thereof - you name it!
If you can't hear the difference, when tested in the same system, between something like an Technics SP10, in a slate or Obsidian plinth, versus a 1970s-vintage LP12, even if both were fitted with the same arm and cartridge, then you *really* don't deserve to own an audio system beyond the capabilities of a Bose radio!! :doh:
Jeez, I can quite clearly hear the difference in the sound of my T/T when I over-tighten the Allen bolts, offering VTA adjustment for my tonearm, or when increasing or decreasing VTF on my SPU by less than .05 of a gram - never mind anything else!!!
Marco.
The Jriver/Jplay thread continues on PFM. At least one of the people involved claims to have tried it, which is more than most who decry a product without hearing it.
Ali, just about to have me din-dins, mate. You make some good points. I'll come back to you later :)
Marco.
The Jriver/Jplay thread continues on PFM. At least one of the people involved claims to have tried it, which is more than most who decry a product without hearing it.
TBH, threads in reference to the minutiae of computer audio bore the shite out of me, so I avoid them like the plague. Therefore, that 'discussion' would've totally slipped under my radar.
Like you say, sadly some forums are populated by life's casualties! Totally joyless... :rolleyes:
Right, I'm off to devour a bowl of Del's delicious home-made porcini mushroom risotto, drizzled with white truffle oil, and accompanied by a rocket and cherry tomato salad, topped with fresh Parmesan shavings, all washed down with a nice bottle of Chianti Classico Reserva...
Laters! :)
Marco.
Meanwhile I am tucking into a bacon sarnie... :lol:
Quiche with boiled then sliced potatoes then fried in fry light and a salad with low fat coleslaw washed down with a glass of prosecco (or 3)
Dessert is waiting upstairs...:lol:
realysm42
21-05-2013, 17:42
Might get a takeaway for the first time in millennia.
For £6500 I would expect Norah Jones to be stood in front of me in person singing! :lol:
For £6500 I'd expect her to be in front of me...
I trialed JPlay 5.1.
Bought it 3 hours later.
I trialed JPlay 5.1.
Bought it 3 hours later.
How people can't hear the difference is strange. Are you running it on 2 machines? A couple of your servers?
You're going to be in trouble on PFM now!
realysm42
21-05-2013, 18:19
You guys both run play?
I don't want to turn this into pfm, but is it that much better than jriver? Do you find a lot of what it automates can be done manually?
How people can't hear the difference is strange. Are you running it on 2 machines? A couple of your servers?
You're going to be in trouble on PFM now!
I can hear the improvement Clive running in single PC mode.
Not tried streaming mode yet between two PC's.
In my setup its do-able though, server PC with Music library in other room, playback server in lounge.
Will have a play with that tommorow. :)
I hated Jplay, thought it wasn't for me until I tried the latest version with Win8 modes in it.
Fast PC, so just switch everything in Jplay to max and don't worry about it.
Last time I tried it I had my Vlink 192, which wasn't compatible with hibernation mode, it crashed my PC and I just thought it was too much hard work for nothing.
It genuinely improves (imo) the sound quality from Jriver.
Not night and day, but music makes more sense to me with it and its missed when its not there.
I'm a cynic, have to try it for myself, work out how it does what it does (which I couldn't!) but I was seriously impressed with it.
It works great with Fidelizer too, can run them both with no problems.
You guys both run play?
I don't want to turn this into pfm, but is it that much better than jriver? Do you find a lot of what it automates can be done manually?
No idea what it does Martin, apart from what is described on their website. Can take a guess though.
I try to keep it simple if I can, if it sounds better and its worth it, its worth it.
Spent a lot of time to and fro'ing when I had the trial, making sure I tried all the permutations and formed (for me) a valid opinion.
Bought it right away.
You guys both run play?
I don't want to turn this into pfm, but is it that much better than jriver? Do you find a lot of what it automates can be done manually?
It does a lot more than simply tune up W8. Actually there's a lot to be gained from tuning up W8 once Jplay is installed. The Jplay guys don't want to support lots of O/S tweaks for obvious reasons.
I trialed JPlay 5.1.
Bought it 3 hours later.
for a scotsman that is saying something
did jplay have a sale on? :lol:
for a scotsman that is saying something
did jplay have a sale on? :lol:
Sold my grannie for medical experiments :)
Living on toast n beans for a fortnight!
Colin Wonfor
21-05-2013, 19:00
Returning to the subject of TQ cables, could someone 'in the know' verify whether carbon is used in their design? If so, that might explain a few things...
Marco.
None at all.
Ha - ok, Colin... Thanks for the clarification! :)
In terms of your USB cable, then, what does the word "Graphite" refer to in the title? The colour?
Marco.
Colin Wonfor
21-05-2013, 19:45
Ha - ok, Colin... Thanks for the clarification! :)
In terms of your USB cable, then, what does the word "Graphite" refer to in the title? The colour?
Marco.
Only colour and to indicate it is better than Blue, Black, but not as good as Diamond.
Best Col
This 'battle' is being fought on two fronts, here and PFM. Both with the same main protagonists.
There must be something else to talk about, surely?
realysm42
21-05-2013, 20:09
You don't need to post in here; start another topic?
I'm not posting over in that thread any more.
I do need to post to point out the futility to anyone blind enough not to see it.
realysm42
21-05-2013, 20:32
Your previous post said nothing of futility; I'm sure there's a million other similar conversations happening all over the world.
I doubt anyone's that bothered tbh.
julesd68
21-05-2013, 20:40
There must be something else to talk about, surely?
Wouldn't it be nice to have a cable thread that discussed other brands?
Such has been the quality / reviews / marketing / shilling (whatever you believe) of Tellurium cables, it's as though no other brand exists at the moment!
Well, a lot of electrons are being inconvenienced unnecessarily for a start. I'd imagine a discussion that has the same potential for resolution involves the Jews and the Muslims.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a cable thread that discussed other brands?
Such has been the quality / reviews / marketing / shilling (whatever you believe) of Tellurium cables, it's as though no other brand exists at the moment!
I've got a 'nice' set of Mark Grant G1000HDs that are 0.5m but they could do with being another 0.5m longer. I must state at this juncture that I don't hold this against Mr. Grant in any way shape or form.
Myles,
are you just out to take the piss here? :scratch:
The tone of this thread is beginning to sour a bit. Guys, we buy stuff, we keep what we like and sell on what we don't, that is the natural scheme of things in this game. One man's food is another's poison and it has always been thus (a bit extreme perhaps but you get the picture). What earthly point is there in criticising someone else's choice of equipment, it is not as if you are going to have to listen to it :rolleyes:
No, why do you ask?
If you think this thread hasn't yet served its useful purpose then I suppose thats fair enough.
Edited to add: Dave, I know you didn't even suggest it, but I have not once criticised the other guys purchase. Each to their own, but the thread is dead.
Describing the threads tone as souring is quite apt, going by the subject matter and tonality!!
Spectral Morn
21-05-2013, 20:48
Myles,
are you just out to take the piss here? :scratch:
I think the word is Trolling - reported as such.
No, why do you ask?
If you think this thread hasn't yet served its useful purpose then I suppose thats fair enough.
thanks pal.
I think the word is Trolling - reported as such.
Do you really think so? Someone suggested other cable makers could be mentioned and I did. Dry your eyes.
Myles, may I refer you to post #224
Spectral Morn
21-05-2013, 21:02
Do you really think so? Someone suggested other cable makers could be mentioned and I did. Dry your eyes.
Your attitude and words are not in the spirit of AOS you are being rude, aggressive and unpleasant in my opinion and that of others on the thread, Myles you are in my view being a troll and are only bringing attitude to the thread nothing more.
I have reported it as such.
Someone suggested other cable makers could be mentioned and I did. Dry your eyes.
Myles, we don't communicate so rudely with each other here, so I suggest that you give it a rest on this thread now, as you've clearly got nothing constructive to add. Any further behaviour like that will see you banned for a week.
Marco.
Your attitude and words are not in the spirit of AOS you are being rude, aggressive and unpleasant in my opinion and others on the thread, Myles you are in my view being a troll. I have reported it as such.
This is not really the place to do this but lets. Show me where I have been rude-(insert below)
Show me where I have been aggressive-(insert below)
Show me where I have been unpleasant (actually unpleasant not impish)-(insert below)
If you can fill 66% of the sections above with real evidence of those accusations I'll admit I was wrong and take myself off for a week of R and R.
Myles, I suggest that you read my previous post and act on it, before I hit the ban button.
Fuck it, life's too short and you obviously have no intention of behaving. See you in a week, when hopefully you'll have learned some manners!
Marco.
Hi Ali,
I can only speak from my experience mate, and having fitted stepped attenuators in both carbon and metal film to the Pre 2 I used to have, I preferred the carbons in that particular situation.
No worries, dude. I was also speaking from my experience when I declared the opposite; or rather my preference for metal-film stepped attenuators, over carbon pots, the difference between which, sonically, I agree would always be large.
However, even when comparing, in some detail, the sonic effects of metal-film stepped attenuators, to carbon ones (as Nick, from HFC, would confirm when I was continually pestering him for stuff, lol), I've generally always preferred metal-film, as to my ears, the sound is more accurate and less coloured, but only when used in a circuit (and system) that is tonally as neutral as possible, and therefore doesn't artificially accentuate high-frequencies.
You wouldn't believe the amount of experimenting I've done with volume pots, before settling on my current stepped attenuator, from DACT, after having lived with a (very good) Glasshouse Takman unit, for some months. Ultimately, in a direct comparison with the DACT, the Takman was found slightly wanting, in terms of resolution and tonal neutrality. To my ears, the DACT offers the widest 'open window' onto recordings and least coloration of any (of the many) steppers and pots I have tried - and that's when listening to both vinyl and CD! :)
I cannot abide it when my ears detect a distinct sonic signature, in a component, thus reducing resolution, and therefore acting as a sticking plaster.
Furthermore, as again is a case in point with the circuit in my Croft preamp, whenever I've compared high-quality metal-film resistors to their carbon counterparts, the latter seem to 'sit' on the sound and introduce an 'opaqueness' and lack of clarity, in comparison with the best metal films. For me, and you may disagree, the best metal-film resistors are simply more accurate than their carbon counterparts, and therefore, IMO, if the sound obtained by using metal-film is bright and edgy, then it's likely that it's only revealing sonic deficiencies elsewhere (in the circuit and/or system).
I know and recognise that, in some applications, metal-film resistors can introduce and unpleasant edginess, but judiciously combined with the right components, that need not be the case. This fact is proven with the Croft, which I assure you, doesn't sound worse for its use, throughout, of quality metal-film resistors :nono:
Far from it... You can see, though, why I'm not a fan of carbon!
In the end, however, you've summed things up nicely:
There are just too many variables to blindly say one is better than the other IMHO.
Spot on. Equally, there are too many variables to blindly say that all metal-film resistors sound "sharp and zingy"........ ;)
Therefore, as I've said many times, it's not what you've got, but rather how you use it.
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-05-2013, 11:11
Yep, I agree, which is why I clearly stated I found them sharp and zingy in the stepper I was using in the particular pre I was using at the time. ;)
As an example, when I'd fitted a stepper with metal Takmans, I took my kit to Owston, and got more than one comment that the system sounded a little "edgy and digital" from some folk. That changed when a carbon stepper was fitted.
I may not shout about it on forums, unless I find something very worthwhile, like the balanced power supply I built, but I do have a fair few years of experience trying different components in my kit, chopping and changing stuff, so I reckon I have a pretty good handle on what I like the sound of.
We don't all have the same ears/preferences. :)
I completely agree, mate. I do exactly the same, although in terms of faffing about with components, you'll have more experience than I have. Your recommendation for using SCR teflon-film caps (as coupling caps) in my Croft preamp is still paying dividends! :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-05-2013, 13:15
Aye, they are very good IMHO. I like the AN coppers too.
Not tried those... Are they P.I.Os?
Love the Teflons - not cheap, but they sound 'really' good. I just wish you could get them in some larger values, so I could use them in the copper amp! :)
Marco.
Hi Marco
If you really wish to raise the bar there is nothing even comes close to either the V-cap Teflon/Copper or the Auric cap pure Teflon units.
Certainly they make Tannoy's very listenable :D all joking aside these are simply the finest capacitors I have ever heard bar none.
If you wish to hear your equipment sound as good as gets with your own boxes then these are a light year ahead of the rest.
These will increase the resolution of your system, just be aware it may highlight weakness else where in your system.
I have been using these for close to 8 years now and nothing gives you the results of either of these two capacitors.
One draw back though the price is not for the non TQ USB cable owner!
One of the best of the best (http://www.v-cap.com/)
One of the best of the best (http://www.audience-av.com/capacitors/t_description.html)
Nice one, Tony - thanks for the reccos :)
Do both those makes of caps come in high-current types and in a wide variety of values?
Marco.
Hi Marco
Usually ranging from 0.01uf to 47uf and from 250 to 1500V
So far I have not encountered a problem with psu by pass on close to 100 amps current swing.
Signal pathway values from 0.01uf to 3.3uf, they only draw back a 1uf 300V TFTF cap is BIG and heavy beastie 50mm and 32mm diameter is around 50mm
I would suggest using some 0.01 or 0.1's as bypass to start with it will seriously surprise you!
How is life with you Marco?
Ali Tait
22-05-2013, 18:32
Not tried those... Are they P.I.Os?
Love the Teflons - not cheap, but they sound 'really' good. I just wish you could get them in some larger values, so I could use them in the copper amp! :)
Marco.
Yeah PIO's mate.
Not tried the caps Tony refers to, but they are SERIOUSLY expensive!
Ali Tait
22-05-2013, 18:32
Hi Marco
Usually ranging from 0.01uf to 47uf and from 250 to 1500V
So far I have not encountered a problem with psu by pass on close to 100 amps current swing.
Signal pathway values from 0.01uf to 3.3uf, they only draw back a 1uf 300V TFTF cap is BIG and heavy beastie 50mm and 32mm diameter is around 50mm
I would suggest using some 0.01 or 0.1's as bypass to start with it will seriously surprise you!
How is life with you Marco?
Tony, tried any of the Duelunds?
HFN blind tested usb cables this month. They found "significant and repeatable differences". See page 98 for more info and graphs too.
HFN blind tested usb cables this month. They found "significant and repeatable differences". See page 98 for more info and graphs too.
Yes I read that and it was enlightening. Why they put a £6500 usb cable in there though defies logic.
Hi Tony,
Hi Marco
Usually ranging from 0.01uf to 47uf and from 250 to 1500V
So far I have not encountered a problem with psu by pass on close to 100 amps current swing.
Signal pathway values from 0.01uf to 3.3uf, they only draw back a 1uf 300V TFTF cap is BIG and heavy beastie 50mm and 32mm diameter is around 50mm
I would suggest using some 0.01 or 0.1's as bypass to start with it will seriously surprise you!
How is life with you Marco?
I'm cool, mate. Looking forward to a nice summer break for 4 weeks in France and Italy. Howz you? :)
Noted on the caps. I'll have a look and probably give some of the V-cap TFTFs a go, in the copper amp, to replace some RS polyprops. I'd actually forgotten about the V-caps and was going to use some Mundorf Supremes, so ta for reminding me! :cool:
Marco.
For £6500 I'd expect her to be in front of me...
...with her legs akimbo whispering "come away with me" :lol:
Yes I read that and it was enlightening. Why they put a £6500 usb cable in there though defies logic.
It was almost equalled by the £45 Chord, which will be upsetting for the maker.
Audioman
22-05-2013, 22:28
It was almost equalled by the £45 Chord, which will be upsetting for the maker.
Wow so a £45 Chord is likely better than a £450 Tellurium q Graphite USB then. :lol:
Wow so a £45 Chord is likely better than a £450 Tellurium q Graphite USB then. :lol:
Amusing and that thought crossed my mind too but we have no reason the think that, if I'm being serious.....
Wow so a £45 Chord is likely better than a £450 Tellurium q Graphite USB then. :lol:
:lol:
I have never heard any chord usb cables of any sort so cannot possibly comment :ner:
I have some supra which sell for even less and they sound good!
Hi Tony,
I'd actually forgotten about the V-caps and was going to use some Mundorf Supremes, so ta for reminding me! :cool:
Marco.
Morning Marco
I must admit four weeks on the Amalfi coast would be just the ticket right now :)
Mundorf Supreme's are excellent products, I prefer the Gold / Silver units use these in many applications.
However no competition for the V-caps or Auric-cap Telfon's though the price reflects this.
You must pop in and say hello in the not too distant future Marco.
Tony, tried any of the Duelunds?
Morning Ali
I have indeed, again a high quality cap that does produce transparent and musical sound and some of the high end manufacturers use these great caps as OE I believe.
In some applications the size is more beneficial than the traditional cylindrical sizes.
Both V and Auric Caps are very expensive, if you have project you feel is going to give sterling results then these products will deliver like no other.
I would suggest using a couple of small TFTF-oil's as power supply bypass to obtain a taste of what these products can do.
That way you don't break the bank and will get to hear their benefits.
Tony
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