Damaged stylus or cart/arm mismatch or ...?

[joniakaidiot]

Hello,


I'm struggling with inner groove distortion issue here.
It doesn't seem to relate to cartridge alignment, as I've described below.

Here's some info on my turntable:

- Technics SL-1210

- Audio Technica AT-1005 mkII tonearm

- Sumiko HS-12 headshell

- Nagaoka MP-11 cart with original stylus.

- Cable capacitance from the cartridge clips on the headshell leads to the RCA connectors is 90pf.

- Tonearm mounted nicely to 225mm mounting distance - I just printed out an A4 print with 225mm line with spindle and arm pillar holes to double check verify this, and it's good.

- Cartridge aligned perfectly, tried with several protractors, but printed a specific arc protractor with Conrad Hoffmans template generator (pivot to spindle 225 mm/overhang 15.35 mm/offset angle 21.5 deg, also printed one with 15.00 mm overhang). I've done this very carefully to be exact - so the alignment shouldn't be the problem.

- VTA adjusted quite well and cartridge is parallel with the platter, also tried both positive and negative VTA.

- Azimuth is as well adjusted as I can.

- Tried several several tracking force from 1.5g to 2.5g.

And the result is, I'm still getting annoying IGD.
I've tried changing the overhang a little bit, by slightly moving the cart back and forth - but no work.

So, what do you think, am I dealing with:

1) Cartridge and arm mismatch
2) Damaged stylus/cart
3) Both above
4) Other, which?

What makes me think of damaged stylus/cart is that I had problems with IGD when using the stock arm as well - and with this very same Nagaoka cart. I can't say I adjusted the cart this precise then, neither when I still had AT95e.

I've understood that Nagaoka MP-11 is quite good tracker and shouldn't produce IGD when properly set. So, is it usual that damaged stylus produces IGD, but plays other parts of the record fine?

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks!

[myles]

Could it be an issue with arm wiring? Perhaps when the arm reaches the middle of the record an earth is introduced, or a channel is on its way out?

[joniakaidiot]

Hmm, didn't think of that.

I just think that in case it was wiring issue, especially with earth, wouldn't it represent hum etc. signal along with possible distortion?

[Rare Bird]

Remove your headshell turn it over does it measure 49mm from styli tip to outside of the rubber washer at bayonet fitting?

[myles]

Possibly, it might be worth using a multimeter to measure the resistance of all four channels, from the headshell to the outputs (not sure exactly where on your tt), and see if there is any difference as you move the arm into the middle.

[YNWaN]

I think, as you write that you have covered all the obvious issues, you really need to get someone experienced (and competent) to physically assess the issue (either in your home or taking your deck to them) - this could be a dealer (assuming a good one) or a fellow enthusiast (assuming they know what they are doing - which in my experience is presuming a lot!).

There very quickly comes a point where such problems cannot be resolved accurately by remote control. My experience is that the solution often lies in something not previously mentioned or in an aspect which has been underestimated.

For example - a few years ago a chap spoke to me at a hi-fi show and commented on the distortion he was hearing from the system we were both listening to. After a short amount of questioning it became clear that the distortion he was hearing was actually the sound of the guitarist bending the strings as he played - presumably, he had never heard a nylon stringed guitar close miked before.

Finally, I take it this end of side distortion is evident on new, as well as old, records. If a record becomes damaged in the past by worn stylus or incorrect alignment etc. it will always sound that way and, in fact, the damage may be more obvious once the alignment is corrected.

[joniakaidiot]

Remove your headshell turn it over does it measure 49mm from styli tip to outside of the rubber washer at baynet fitting?

Ok ... I have Sumiko HS-12 headshell (forgot to mention it in the description, added it there now) ... it'd be about 52mm.

Is it good or bad? ;)

[YNWaN]

The make of headshell shouldn't make any difference to alignment dimensions.

Assuming Andre's dimensions are correct, then your cartridge is too far forward in the headshell.

One aspect that is sometimes overlooked is the angle (as seen from above) that the cartridge fits to the headshell. The sides of the cartridge should not necessarily be square to the sides of the headshell; they should be square to the markings on the alignment protractor more importantly. A small amount of rotational error of this type introduces more alignment distortion than a millimetre of overhang misalignment.

[Macca]

My experience with the Nag MP11m used on stock SL1200, is that the end of side distortion is due to the cartridge, or more precisely the stylus profile. Careful set up will ameliorate it somewhat and its presence varies from record to record, but you will never banish it entirely. I have since moved on to an MP 50 that has a much finer tip and no EOSD.

[joniakaidiot]

I think, as you write that you have covered all the obvious issues, you really need to get someone experienced (and competent) to physically assess the issue (either in your home or taking your deck to them) - this could be a dealer (assuming a good one) or a fellow enthusiast (assuming they know what they are doing - which in my experience is presuming a lot!).

There very quickly comes a point where such problems cannot be resolved accurately by remote control. My experience is that the solution often lies in something not previously mentioned or in an aspect which has been underestimated.

For example - a few years ago a chap spoke to me at a hi-fi show and commented on the distortion he was hearing from the system we were both listening to. After a short amount of questioning it became clear that the distortion he was hearing was actually the sound of the guitarist bending the strings as he played - presumably, he had never heard a nylon stringed guitar close miked before.

Finally, I take it this end of side distortion is evident on new, as well as old, records. If a record becomes damaged in the past by worn stylus or incorrect alignment etc. it will always sound that way and, in fact, the damage may be more obvious once the alignment is corrected.


Yep, might be worth having some expert checking the TT.

Yea, distortion appears on both new and old records.
Would bad alignment damage inner grooves more than rest of the record?
Or is it just because the inner grooves seem to be more sensitive to misalignment and damage etc. so it'll be audible easier?

[YNWaN]

Both

[joniakaidiot]

My experience with the Nag MP11m used on stock SL1200, is that the end of side distortion is due to the cartridge, or more precisely the stylus profile. Careful set up will ameliorate it somewhat and its presence varies from record to record, but you will never banish it entirely. I have since moved on to an MP 50 that has a much finer tip and no EOSD.

Aha, so it might be cart issue.
I was thinking of purchasing Denon DL-110, but wouldn't want to spend the money before I'll get this sorted and it's sure that it's cart/stylus issue.

[joniakaidiot]

Both

Ok ... well, I'll have to borrow a cart first from someone and try with it.
Maybe it'll clarify the situation.

Then, off to have a talk with some expert.

[YNWaN]

I doubt you will ever be able to entirely be sure it is a stylus profile issue until you actually try a better profile.

[YNWaN]

Then, off to have a talk with some expert.

Don't just go and have a talk with this 'expert' - with respect, you've already done that; you have to actually demonstrate the problem to them. If they really are an expert they will be able to tell you, from their experience, if it is end if side distortion, the relative severity of it and if it is an alignment problem.

[joniakaidiot]

Don't just go and have a talk with this 'expert' - with respect, you've already done that; you have to actually demonstrate the problem to them. If they really are an expert they will be able to tell you, from their experience, if it is end if side distortion, the relative severity of it and if it is an alignment problem.

Yep, that's true. ;)

[NRG]

Are you sure your arm mounting and alignment is correct?

225mm is different to this:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25370

[Audioman]

The first and most obvious thing is to determine if cartridge/stylus is the problem.

Is IGD just on the very inner grooves only and is it on new records as well as used?

What is the approx usage of this cartridge in hours? - 'MP11 with original stylus' is a pointer here unless it was bought recently as NOS.

[Macca]

Aha, so it might be cart issue.
I was thinking of purchasing Denon DL-110, but wouldn't want to spend the money before I'll get this sorted and it's sure that it's cart/stylus issue.

I'm pretty much convinced of it based on my own experience with the same deck, headshell and cart. Also you say you had the same issue with the stock arm - but not when using the AT95e. The sl1210 is a bloody good platform for playing records on, the rest of your system I am guessing is well set up and well sorted - you are just hearing what this particular budget cart doesn't do very well, something a lesser deck/system would not show up, at least not as obviously anyway. It's a great rocker's cartridge but finesse is not its strong point.

[walpurgis]

The AT-1005 arm has very high quality bearings, so unless they've been damaged or tinkered with they should be OK. I'm assuming the arm lifter pad is correctly positioned, they can sometimes rub on the bottom of the arm as it traverses the record, causing problems. I'd be inclined to try another cartridge, you seem to have looked at most other options.

[joniakaidiot]

Are you sure your arm mounting and alignment is correct?

225mm is different to this:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25370

Yep, should be correct.
I mounted it with at-1005's original mounting template and double checked with my own printed template. ;)

[joniakaidiot]

The first and most obvious thing is to determine if cartridge/stylus is the problem.

Is IGD just on the very inner grooves only and is it on new records as well as used?

What is the approx usage of this cartridge in hours? - 'MP11 with original stylus' is a pointer here unless it was bought recently as NOS.

Distortion appears on last or two last tracks on the side, depending on how long the side is. Both new and old records represent it.

I bought the cart from an ebay seller, who said he had bought it new in the end of 70's, used it for a short time and then upgraded - cart's been in its box until i installed it. Of course, the seller may say whatever he wants. ;)

I think i've given about 50 hours for it... can't say for sure.

[joniakaidiot]

I'm pretty much convinced of it based on my own experience with the same deck, headshell and cart. Also you say you had the same issue with the stock arm - but not when using the AT95e. The sl1210 is a bloody good platform for playing records on, the rest of your system I am guessing is well set up and well sorted - you are just hearing what this particular budget cart doesn't do very well, something a lesser deck/system would not show up, at least not as obviously anyway. It's a great rocker's cartridge but finesse is not its strong point.

Yep, had the same problem with the stock arm - and it was the main reason i changed the arm, i thought the arm was damaged as this deck has been in dj use at a rock club before.

I can't remember how at95 did on the inner grooves, but i doubt it was this bad. I'll get to test it today/tomorrow as i'll borrow a cart.

So, the higher end of nagaoka is better with inner grooves? I checked out details on new replacement stylus's, and that mp110 stylus seems to be "super fine polished" as are the higher end stylus's. Worth giving it a try?

[NRG]

Yep, should be correct.
I mounted it with at-1005's original mounting template and double checked with my own printed template. ;)

Sorry to ask again, in your OP you said 225mm pivot to spindle, where as according to VE it should be 215mm and in the link I posted earlier...

http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_database.php?make=Technics&mdl=&sort=2&eflo=&efhi=&ascdesc=ASC&mdlo=&mdhi=&ohlo=&ohhi=&search=search&amlo=&amhi=&cw=&mp=

[Macca]

So, the higher end of nagaoka is better with inner grooves? I checked out details on new replacement stylus's, and that mp110 stylus seems to be "super fine polished" as are the higher end stylus's. Worth giving it a try?

The cheaper ones use a conical profile, the 200 and 300 are elliptical and the 500 is 'super fine line' elliptical. That's what makes the difference. They are expensive for MM carts, though, the 300 is £500 bought new. Conical is always going to sound a little bit cruder depending on what music you play - rock and blues you can get away with it, classical/folk or girl with guitar it will show it up a bit more. The MP500 which is the new version of my MP50 is over £600 now - madness really.

[joniakaidiot]

Sorry to ask again, in your OP you said 225mm pivot to spindle, where as according to VE it should be 215mm and in the link I posted earlier...

http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_database.php?make=Technics&mdl=&sort=2&eflo=&efhi=&ascdesc=ASC&mdlo=&mdhi=&ohlo=&ohhi=&search=search&amlo=&amhi=&cw=&mp=

No prob, Neal. ;)

It's Audio Technica AT-1005 tonearm I have.
It has 225mm mounting distance (= pivot to spindle) - check vinylengine: http://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at-1005.shtml

The stock SL-1210 arm has 215mm mounting distance.

[joniakaidiot]

The cheaper ones use a conical profile, the 200 and 300 are elliptical and the 500 is 'super fine line' elliptical. That's what makes the difference. They are expensive for MM carts, though, the 300 is £500 bought new. Conical is always going to sound a little bit cruder depending on what music you play - rock and blues you can get away with it, classical/folk or girl with guitar it will show it up a bit more. The MP500 which is the new version of my MP50 is over £600 now - madness really.

Yep, a bit too expensive for me.
I think I'll be going for Denon DL-110 or SAE 1000e.

Or maybe you want to trade your MP50 into my MP11 + LPGear AT95HE with broken stylus? :D

[Macca]

.

Or maybe you want to trade your MP50 into my MP11 + LPGear AT95HE with broken stylus? :D

:lol: You will have to prize my MP50 from my cold, dead hands, dude.

[DSJR]

Sorry if I pour cold water on this, but the MP11 was a well liked CHEAP cartridge with a diamond stylus to match. The diamond on yours, or the suspension, may have aged after thirty odd years, but the MP110 stylus should be a straight replacement benefitting from modern computer controlled polishing and alignment - hopefully ;)

Get a bottle of AT607 stylus cleaner and scrub the diamond thoroughly. It's amazing what a slightly worn but still satisfactory stylus can accummulate around it and this may only be an issue at side-end. My Stilton OC9 is a bit like this now and tends to behave almost like a line contact diamond. An Elton John LP I had with very shallow grooves is almost unplayable with this cartridge as the old tip tends to "bottom out" on it.

[joniakaidiot]

:lol: You will have to prize my MP50 from my cold, dead hands, dude.

Hehe, stay right there, I'll just grab the pistol and fly over there. ;)


Sorry if I pour cold water on this, but the MP11 was a well liked CHEAP cartridge with a diamond stylus to match. The diamond on yours, or the suspension, may have aged after thirty odd years, but the MP110 stylus should be a straight replacement benefitting from modern computer controlled polishing and alignment - hopefully ;)

Get a bottle of AT607 stylus cleaner and scrub the diamond thoroughly. It's amazing what a slightly worn but still satisfactory stylus can accummulate around it and this may only be an issue at side-end. My Stilton OC9 is a bit like this now and tends to behave almost like a line contact diamond. An Elton John LP I had with very shallow grooves is almost unplayable with this cartridge as the old tip tends to "bottom out" on it.

Yep, I was thinking that if MP110 works better - I'll have to think about it.
It's about 49 EUR when for example Denon DL-110 is about 120 EUR.
I could always sell Nag if it doesn't work with new stylus either.

Thanks to everyone for your tips and opinions/recommendations so far!
I'll post an update here when I'll get this solved.