View Full Version : Tube Buffer For CD
Ninanina
27-04-2013, 23:53
Does anyone use a tube buffer on their CD player
Might be a daft question but what does it do?
Thanks ;)
It buffs yer choob, innit? Simples! :D
Marco.
Ninanina
28-04-2013, 01:49
It buffs yer choob, innit? Simples! :D
Marco.
Thanks Marco........ I'm none the wiser :doh:
As far as I know, which ain't that far, its a doodad which slots in between yer CDP and DAC or DAC & amp to give that cold, hard, digital signal a bit of TLC. Of course I could be wrong, in which case I'm spouting bollocks as usual... :D
Lol, just ripping ya knitting... A buffer adds valve-like sonic qualities to the output stage of a CD player (tailors the sound), in many cases ameliorating the 'rough edges' and overly bright sonic presentation of some machines.
In general, I don't really like them, as they colour the sound too much for my ears and aren't the 'magic bullet' to achieve a better sound, as purported by some. There are more fundamentally effective modifications that can be carried out to CD players, in order to improve their performance, IMO.
Marco.
Not for me chef......
Had a modified audio fidelity clone which I put on the output of my player.
I took it off immediately. Although there is something about a valve sound, it lost all detail. To be fair, it is a crap design
so a proper tube stage may be better.
For me,
Less is more..... :)
icehockeyboy
28-04-2013, 08:18
I once had an MF tube buffer, and to be honest I didn't miss it when I sold it.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 08:55
A good valve output stage can be great if it's well designed IMHO. The dac Nick built for me has seen off all comers so far in our Scottish Mafia sessions.
Pros and cons as has been said, it cam smooth off harsh sounding components but sometimes i think there can be too many valves in the component line up and it all gets a bit pipe and slippers, i use my home built valve dac as a pre amp as it have a volume control but prefer it through the non valve output.
but having said that i could not find enough valve components to put in the chain when i used a T amp, each to their own though
A good valve output stage can be great if it's well designed IMHO. The dac Nick built for me has seen off all comers so far in our Scottish Mafia sessions.
There's a big difference between a well-designed valve output stage though, Ali, and some of these commercially produced tube buffers, which simply act as a rather poor sonic 'bandage'.
Marco.
It's a marketing gimmick, addressing a "problem" that shouldn't be there. Most CD players have a buffer on their output and if this buffer is properly designed and supplied, that should be all. Many cheap players in the 80's and 90's could be a bit iffy on the analogue outputs (separate issues from the digital ones) and adding say, an X-10D, which offered better impedance matching too, could take the worst off the sound. This unit did add its own warmth and slight "cloudiness" to decent players though and this is what the Rock Grotto upgrades aim to mostly eliminate, with success if used with a larger 12V AC supply IMO.
Things have moved on with cheaper CD players and the issue didn't really arise with more expensive ones, so the need to bother with such things?
walpurgis
28-04-2013, 10:01
Works for me. I use a valve buffer and a jitter buster in the chain and can definitely hear a deterioration in the sound if I remove either item, regardless of which CD payer or pre-amp is used.
Of my buffers, I find the original MF X10-D works very well and is superior to the Chinese Yaqin unit I also have.
I also use a Theta TLC, Monarchy Audio DIP 24/96 and DIP 48/96 jitter busters, they each have something to offer.
Hi Jon,
Pros and cons as has been said, it cam smooth off harsh sounding components but sometimes i think there can be too many valves in the component line up and it all gets a bit pipe and slippers..
That isn't why I tend to dislike the effect of valves in source components, as when done well (as I'm sure you know yourself) valves don't sound smooth or 'pipe and slippers' (quite often, it's the opposite), but rather that, for me, they're an unnecessary complication in the signal path inside a CDP and generally detract more from achieving 'musicality' than they add to it.
I've heard loads of valve-based DACs and tube buffers, and none, to my ears, have sounded as good as the best 'properly sorted' non-tube designed CDPs and DACs, albeit at a price. For me, tube buffers and their ilk are a compromise and provide a cheap way for people (often DIYers) to achieve an acceptable sound from inexpensive (basic) digital circuits and designs. Paying serious attention to PSU arrangements and minimising noise and jitter inside CDPs or DACs pays far more sonic dividends than a tube buffer or output stage, tacked onto an inferior circuit, will ever do.
If you want to give digital equipment (CDPs or DACS) 'valve-like'/'analogue' qualities, then design them around Philips TDA1541 S1 chips and huge linear PSUs. As I know from experience, that will produce the desired result far better than any tube buffer or valve output stage in conjunction with modern 'bleached and forensic' sounding chipsets, in comparison, especially when SMPS units are in the equation.
Marco.
I guess it's all up to your ears, but the x10d undid everything I'd done in getting pinpoint detail to the listening position. show the circuit to anyone who knows anything about valve circuit design and they'll laugh at it.
Like all things in this hobby, it's all about what YOU hear ;)
istari_knight
28-04-2013, 10:28
I guess it's all up to your ears, but the x10d undid everything I'd done in getting pinpoint detail to the listening position. show the circuit to anyone who knows anything about valve circuit design and they'll laugh at it.
Like all things in this hobby, it's all about what YOU hear ;)
Likewise with the Yaqin [I used to own one!] that got torn to shreds on diyaudio. The general end of thread consensus was that simply inserting a 5p electrolytic in the signal path would yield the same sonic results.... It looked cool though!
walpurgis
28-04-2013, 10:34
Strange isn't it. I like as few links in the chain as possible, but in my system the buffer works and to my ears seems to add transparency.
I listen very carefully to every alteration I make to the system setup and my ears aren't fooling me.
walpurgis
28-04-2013, 10:35
show the circuit to anyone who knows anything about valve circuit design and they'll laugh at it.
Why's that?
istari_knight
28-04-2013, 10:42
What valves have you got fitted ? An X-10D passed through my hands a couple of months back - The stock JAN6922 were poor IMO & fitting 6N23P-EV improved things no end.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 10:44
A good buffer can provide better impedance matching between components, which can pay dividends in some circumstances.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 10:47
There's a big difference between a well-designed valve output stage though, Ali, and some of these commercially produced tube buffers, which simply act as a rather poor sonic 'bandage'.
Marco.
Aye can't disagree with that, some of the ebay specials leave a lot to be desired.
They can be very good done well though, I believe Nick's passive pre has buffers on both in and out. Sounded great to me.
Mr Kipling
28-04-2013, 10:58
Like all things in this hobby, it's all about what YOU hear ;)
I hear me stomache rumbling for me dinner.
Isn't it like preamps? Some swear by passive and others will say that a (properly designed) active one is the only valid option.
They can be very good done well though, I believe Nick's passive pre has buffers on both in and out. Sounded great to me.
I've yet to hear anything that Nick's made sound less than excellent :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 11:40
Aye, if he's not happy with it, it doesn't get out the door.
realysm42
28-04-2013, 12:04
I'm currently demoing nick and Dave's valve DAC, it uses 5687 valves on the output stage, I think it's the new version of yours Alli; it sounds fantastic to me. I'll get a proper write up done in a couple of days, suffice to say I've got one on order for keeps.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 12:20
Yep, mine was the prototype, using 6n6p's.
much as I love valves, a tube buffer doesn't really have a function other than as a sonic band-aid. I'm not in favor of adding unnecessary active electronics to the signal path as they can't do anything to correct problems upstream.
Cheers,
Alex
much as I love valves, a tube buffer doesn't really have a function other than as a sonic band-aid. I'm not in favor of adding unnecessary active electronics to the signal path as they can't do anything to correct problems upstream.
+1. Exactly my view :)
Marco.
Why's that?
Having had my choice of amp pissed on from a great height yesterday, it's not nice.
As you state, you like it and as I said that's exactly what matters.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 14:29
Relax dude, I was in no way having a go. As I said, I'd like to hear one myself.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 14:30
much as I love valves, a tube buffer doesn't really have a function other than as a sonic band-aid. I'm not in favor of adding unnecessary active electronics to the signal path as they can't do anything to correct problems upstream.
Cheers,
Alex
They can correct an impedance mismatch, which can transform the sound of a system IMHO.
Thankfully I've never experienced such a phenomenon. What causes it, Ali?
Marco.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 14:47
It's ideal for kit to have a low output impedance feeding into a high i put impedance, as in a cd player and amp for i stance, but of course with amount of different designs and circuits around, you could have spent a lot of money on two great bits of kit that just happen to not have a good impedance match. In a case like this, a decent buffer will correct this.
Ah, I see. Makes sense. Thing is, how would you know, sonically, when there's an impedance mismatch? Is there something specific that you listen for or is this a measurement only thing? :)
Just trying to learn, as I've never encountered this stuff before!
Marco.
The biggest problem is if the Op Amp on the output of most CD players (and they are normally cheap ones, replacing them with something better normally does wonders) has a output stage that is forced by the load its driving, out of A into B. The output stage of most op amps is nothing more than a little push pull driver stage. If you can prevent that by use of a external buffer you hear improvements. So yes, in the right situation, they can fix (or prevent) problems up stream.
Of course if you are talking about a buffer thats designed to add a chunk of 2nd harmonic to give that "valve sound" then that a whole different box of frogs.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 17:04
Wot 'e said. They can also be useful on passive preamps, which vary their impedance depending on the volume it's set at. Putting a buffer either side of a passive can help keep the impedance constant.
Mr Kipling
28-04-2013, 17:11
Design & Application, surely.
Yup, chaps, I get all that, so thanks for the info. No doubt whatsoever that valve buffers have their uses. I guess that I've always used kit that doesn't need this type of 'pampering', for want of a better word. I tend to use 'no compromise' vintage stuff, and then modify it with the best modern components, so have never encountered this problem.
I couldn't imagine such a device being of benefit, for example, in my set-up. I'm also of the mindset that if there's an impedance mismatch (or any other mismatch) between equipment, then change the equipment itself, in order to fix the problem, rather than introducing another box.
Marco.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 17:13
Yep, but there is so much stuff out there, different circuits etc. that there are bound to be problems occasionally. (In rep,y to Stephen)
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 17:16
Yup, chaps, I get all that, so thanks for the info. No doubt whatsoever that valve buffers have their uses. I guess that I've always used kit that doesn't need this type of 'pampering', for want of a better word.
I couldn't imagine such a device being of benefit, for example, in my set-up. I'm also of the mindset that if there's an impedance mismatch (or any other mismatch) between equipment, then change the equipment, to fix the problem, rather than introducing another box.
Marco.
Aye, but what if you have just spent a lot of money and/or really like the kit in question? As Nick says, even expensive kit can have a cheapo op amp on the output.
Yep, but there is so much stuff out there, different circuits etc. that there are bound to be problems occasionally.
Indeed, but then I tend to live with the same kit for years.... I ain't no box-swapper ;)
I've had the same CDP/DAC for seven years (and I predict that I'll probably have it in another seven)!
Aye, but what if you have just spent a lot of money and/or really like the kit in question? As Nick says, even expensive kit can have a cheapo op amp on the output.
Affirmative to the first bit. As for the latter, you tend not to find that so much in the best vintage gear, where the money was spent where it matters most (under the hood) in the first place, and if I do, I get someone like Nick or Anthony to whip out whatever was inferior and fit something rather better, although this normally applies to things like capacitors. I'd imagine that the quality of the op amps in my Sony DAS-R1 is hunky-dory...
Marco.
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 17:29
Aye, there's always something that can be done.
As you say, a lot of the decent vintage kit was well made, and built to last.
Ninanina
28-04-2013, 18:32
I think on balance I'll not be going the buffer route
Probably best to put any money towards upgrading source first
For the last few days I've been borrowing a Rega Dac from a friend; damn it, he wants it back tomorrow :rolleyes:
I'm just going to swop out the Dac and try without it, I hope I don't miss it too much otherwise it's going to cost me :doh:
Watch this space :eek:
I can heartily recommend the Rega DAC, t'is velly good indeed... :)
I can heartily recommend the Rega DAC, t'is velly good indeed... :)
Actually Bev, if you can live with the occasional little niggles, the Beresford Bushmaster comes very close to it in performance plus you get an excellent headphone amp too ;)
I can heartily recommend the Rega DAC, t'is velly good indeed... :)
Actually Bev if you can live with the occasional little niggles the Beresford Bushmaster comes very close to it in performance, plus you get an excellent headphone amp too. Should save you a few quid ;)
You got a shttttuuuttteeerrr, daftee? :D
Marco.
realysm42
28-04-2013, 20:56
I think on balance I'll not be going the buffer route
Probably best to put any money towards upgrading source first
For the last few days I've been borrowing a Rega Dac from a friend; damn it, he wants it back tomorrow :rolleyes:
I'm just going to swop out the Dac and try without it, I hope I don't miss it too much otherwise it's going to cost me :doh:
Watch this space :eek:
Got an mdac for sale if you're interested? Blows anything out the water at the price range...
The Black Adder
29-04-2013, 08:58
The MF X-10D buffer as stock was just about bearable but after the Rock Grotto mods it sang like a good un. If anyone has one and is using it in it's stock state, get it upgraded...
As far as I know, which ain't that far, its a doodad which slots in between yer CDP and DAC or DAC & amp to give that cold, hard, digital signal a bit of TLC. Of course I could be wrong, in which case I'm spouting bollocks as usual... :D
Yep, the Audio Note approach, butter up the digital sound to give some nicely coloured warmth.
I also use a Theta TLC, Monarchy Audio DIP 24/96 and DIP 48/96 jitter busters, they each have something to offer.
You'll find the Theta TLC is a "jitter increaser" using the coax due to an error in the grounding. However, it does work for optical, and I'd imagine it'd be great for something like Apple Airplay.
iFi have the iTUBE coming out very soon. Scroll down to the item for 24th April:
https://www.facebook.com/iFiAudio
I'm currently demoing nick and Dave's valve DAC, it uses 5687 valves on the output stage, I think it's the new version of yours Alli; it sounds fantastic to me. I'll get a proper write up done in a couple of days, suffice to say I've got one on order for keeps.
What's the RRP? EDIT: looks like £2,950, which puts it right up against my Audial Model S with output transformers...
Ali Tait
29-04-2013, 13:52
Nick's uses output trannies too.
realysm42
29-04-2013, 14:10
All I've been thinking about today is getting home to listen to it!
Some valve loveliness is what my systems been missing since I had it...
Nick's uses output trannies too.
Yeah, an option with mine... £3k makes for a lot of DAC though would love to hear Nick's new one & also the new Lampizator DACs, both using tube outputs of course.
Ali Tait
29-04-2013, 14:17
Aye, not heard the newest version myself yet, looking forward to it.
walpurgis
29-04-2013, 20:19
You'll find the Theta TLC is a "jitter increaser" using the coax due to an error in the grounding. However, it does work for optical, and I'd imagine it'd be great for something like Apple Airplay.
I believe there was an issue with early ones. Mine definitely improves the sound, no question.
The MF X-10D buffer as stock was just about bearable but after the Rock Grotto mods it sang like a good un. If anyone has one and is using it in it's stock state, get it upgraded...
Sorry even with all this done, it didn't work for me
All the elco's changed for larger value Pana FC's and all the film caps swapped for Mundorf Supreme....all running of a bigger transformer too.
Could have always been crappy valves I was using....don't recall what they were now :doh:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=41&pictureid=206
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