View Full Version : An object lesson in frustration
... or is that learning to accept delayed gratification?
First, the good news - today I took delivery of my new Conrad Johnson LP125sa power amp - yay!
Then the bad - the valves aren't pre installed, and to get the valve cage off, you need an eight inch flat head screwdriver with a blade small enough to reach the captive nuts on the chassis through a small access hole.
Did I have such a screwdriver in my toolkit? yes. was it where I left it?. No it bloody wasn't!.
Cue lots of driving around between garages looking for a screwdriver set, turning the house upside down, swearing and eventually bad tempered fuming!.
Dear manufacturers - if you supply a product that requires a tool to use or service that most users won't commonly have to hand, why not supply one with the product?. I'm sure your margins could accommodate it. :steam::doh:
anyway, many deep breaths and a few beers have taken the edge of my frustration, and I'm sure it will be fabulous when it is finally up and running.
cheers,
Alex
Ali Tait
26-04-2013, 21:27
Damn, that must be frustrating Alex!
Deep breath, and just think how good it will sound eventually!
That is a bit much,i have two drawers full of screwdrivers after 30 years as a mechanic,and i can't find the one you need.I fear the angle grinder would have come out if it were me.:eyebrows::steam:
Alan, pat yourself on the back. Think of all the electricity you have saved plus that warm and fuzzy feeling you get from having done your bit to reduce global warming. I'll get my coat... :door: :D
The Black Adder
26-04-2013, 22:10
"Write down your worry Breathe deeply Avoid tense people Massage your forehead."
Life is full of upsetting moments :)
walpurgis
26-04-2013, 22:27
I know the feeling. I have a fully equipped workshop with tools for just about any purpose, but d'you think I can find anything when I need it. fat chance!
Lol. Feel for you Alex. Strange one not to have the screw driver included in the kit especially when you think a legacy company like Conrad Johnson should know better.
Is it sorted now?
That is a bit much,i have two drawers full of screwdrivers after 30 years as a mechanic,and i can't find the one you need.I fear the angle grinder would have come out if it were me.:eyebrows::steam:
I would have thought you would have a couple of long carburetor screw drivers knocking about Alan!.
I did think of attacking a flat head screwdriver with a metal file but it would have taken all night as it is hardened.
cheers all - will post some early impressions after a visit to the local tool store tomorrow.
Alex
Lol. Feel for you Alex. Strange one not to have the screw driver included in the kit especially when you think a legacy company like Conrad Johnson should know better.
Is it sorted now?
Rowlf, afraid not. you're quite local to me.. don't suppose you're still up and have one in your kitchen draw? it's only quarter to twelve LOL!.
I've got to say that whoever designed the fasteners for the cage must have been on drugs! the sound had better be pretty phenomenal when I get the bloody thing going eventually :)
Cheers
Alex
Spectral Morn
26-04-2013, 22:51
Here's the thing if it was a Chinese company the chances are the screw driver would have been included.
I would email CJ and tell them how disappointed you are re the absence of the item required to make your amp work but did your dealer not think to tell you? If not they let you down too but at the end of the day CJ should supply the tool. BAT (Balanced Audio Technology) supplies a torque headed Allen typed key so you can open their stuff to fit valves, so why can't CJ. Very poor imho.
I hope you get music soon.
Regards Neil
Sorry Alex, I would have love to help you out but I do not have a 1/8" flat head screwdriver.
Poor form not to included it. Yes, if it was Chinese, not only the screwdriver, but probably a pair of gloves will be included in there which cost only a penny but it was the thought and putting things nicely and ready to go that counts.
I am a fan of Conrad Johnson and no doubt once it gets sorted, all this misery will be soon forgiven and forgotten. Look forward to your listening review then! :)
The Grand Wazoo
26-04-2013, 23:20
Sorry Alex, I would have love to help you out but I do not have a 1/8" flat head screwdriver.
My reading of it was that the driver has to be 8 inches long with a narrow blade width.
You could be right Chris.
Shit, what was I thinking?
Here's the thing if it was a Chinese company the chances are the screw driver would have been included.
I would email CJ and tell them how disappointed you are re the absence of the item required to make your amp work but did your dealer not think to tell you? If not they let you down too but at the end of the day CJ should supply the tool. BAT (Balanced Audio Technology) supplies a torque headed Allen typed key so you can open their stuff to fit valves, so why can't CJ. Very poor imho.
I hope you get music soon.
Regards Neil
Neil,
No fault on the part of the dealer, I should say, as he did tell me what I would need, but unfortunately I turned down the offer of a loan as I was sure I had one in my set. It would be better still if they just used accessible external fasteners - I really can't imagine why they are the way they are.
Agree with your comments re bundling of accessories and focus on the out of box experience - not too much to ask for at this price point.
I am sure I will feel quite different tomorrow when it's up and running.
Cheers,
Alex
Thing Fish
27-04-2013, 01:02
For the price of it I would expect a little man to install and polish it for me...:)
Can understand your frustration. Took delivery of my Shengya pre plus a set of Pavane tubes to replace the Shuguangs that came as standard. Tried every screwdriver I had and nothing fitted - for the first time in my life I had to take the pre to a dealer to have the case opened up. He did have a screwdriver that fitted although he had never seen the actual screw head on any other piece of equipment. I wasn't real thrilled with it being so difficult but was relieved when he said he was stunned at the build quality inside and couldn't believe it could be manufactured for the $600 I paid for it. Pavanes fitted it is a gorgeous preamp and mates very well with my Jungson 99C. Best combination I've ever owned.
Hal55
Ok, got what I needed from the local tool shop. Price was £1.35, so why not give one away C-J?.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8396/8686230642_b4f23e2499_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8686230642/)
2013-04-27 11.25.29 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8686230642/) by alexmastersuk (http://www.flickr.com/people/14548229@N07/), on Flickr
View of the top deck with the KT120s installed - it's a big unit, 19" by 19"
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8405/8685110863_7387023c75_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8685110863/)
2013-04-27 11.24.15 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8685110863/) by alexmastersuk (http://www.flickr.com/people/14548229@N07/), on Flickr
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8403/8686231372_4fb20da30b_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8686231372/)
A big unit - those are KT120 bottles (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8686231372/) by alexmastersuk (http://www.flickr.com/people/14548229@N07/), on Flickr
Rear view of the chassis - the power and output trannies are huge and the chassis weigh a ton - 72lbs without valves.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8118/8686231210_37b04c01ec_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8686231210/)
Rear of LP125sa chassis (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8686231210/) by alexmastersuk (http://www.flickr.com/people/14548229@N07/), on Flickr
In place in the rack without the cover while I check biasing etc - It juuust fits onto the bottom shelf.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8404/8685111811_f96412231c_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8685111811/)
2013-04-27 13.26.57 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14548229@N07/8685111811/) by alexmastersuk (http://www.flickr.com/people/14548229@N07/), on Flickr
How does it sound? Best sounding amplifier I have heard - just so much detail, ambience, balance and control. It really is quite a transformation, and it has the strange effect of making all of the other components in my system seem so much better. I am really pleased about that as often a new component can unbalance a system, seeming much better in some or many respects but introducing or making apparent a previously unnoticed deficiency.
I'll post a review later after a bit more time with it, but a review by Alan Sircom of this very sample will be in an upcoming Hi-Fi+.
Cheers,
Alex
Patrick Dixon
28-04-2013, 09:40
Perhaps Alan swiped the CJ-supplied screwdriver then?
Hi Alex,
Congrats on your new amp. I'm sure that it sounds fab, but why do the transformers look 'melted', as if they've been subjected to the heat of a volcano? :scratch:
Marco.
hifi_dave
28-04-2013, 09:54
With paint chipped off..:scratch:
walpurgis
28-04-2013, 09:55
Yes, I wondered why they looked a bit 'unfinished'. Some steel covers would look good, but maybe they'd affect heat dissipation. Or perhaps the unit is intended for use with a grille cover on. Still, it's the sound that counts, not the looks!
Ali Tait
28-04-2013, 10:58
Hi Alex,
Congrats on your new amp. I'm sure that it sounds fab, but why do the transformers look 'melted', as if they've been subjected to the heat of a volcano? :scratch:
Marco.
That's how trannies look without a cap on mate. What you can see on the top is just the windings. I was going to comment, surely at the price there could be some nice black or chrome caps?
As has been said though it's the sound that counts.
That's how trannies look without a cap on mate.
Ah! I've never owned a valve amp without caps on the trannies...
What you can see on the top is just the windings. I was going to comment, surely at the price there could be some nice black or chrome caps?
Indeed. Apologies to Alex, but for me, CJ are seriously at fault there. It just looks wrong. As you say, at that price, the job should've been finished properly! :doh:
As has been said though it's the sound that counts.
Ultimately, yes, but for me, having exposed transformers like that is a bit like buying a new car supplied without hub caps....
Marco.
Ah! I've never owned a valve amp without caps on the trannies...
Indeed. Apologies to Alex, but for me, CJ are seriously at fault there. It just looks wrong. As you say, at that price, the job should've been finished properly! :doh:
Ultimately, yes, but for me, having exposed transformers like that is a bit like buying a new car supplied without hub caps....
Marco.
Yes, I guess so, but given that it is all out of site with the valve cover on it doesn't really matter much. It sounds great so I'm not really bothered!.
the casework is pretty prosaic - I have seen much better fit and finish on Chinese products for a fraction of the money, but better that the manufacturing budget goes towards great parts than blingy casework. that does seem to be the C-J philosophy. The parts quality is very high - custom made Teflon caps, laser trimmed metal film resistors etc. The sound is quite fabulous, and that is what matters most to me!.
Cheers,
Alex
Absolutely, Alex. Enjoy - I'm sure that it's a great sounding amp! :)
Marco.
Firebottle
29-04-2013, 06:29
The trannies look 'melted' Marco due to the material they have been impregnated with, this is to stop any movement of the windings causing any sort of audible buzz.
One sign of a well made tranny :)
:cool:Alan
Sure, Alan, I get that. It's just that I've never seen transformers in their raw state before, as all the valve amps I've owned or used have had covers on their transformers :)
Anyway, it's no biggie, so best to let Alex get on with enjoying his new amp :cool:
Marco.
Alan Sircom
29-04-2013, 09:45
I'll post a review later after a bit more time with it, but a review by Alan Sircom of this very sample will be in an upcoming Hi-Fi+.
Actually, I didn't review it... Roy Gregory did. I only photographed the amp. And no, there is no screwdriver supplied and yes, the state of that top plate is a big criticism of the amplifier.
For the money - forget that, for a tenth of the money - c-j should be putting those transformers in their own solid non-user-removable, non-rattling case, the valve cage should be standalone and they should be using pins to locate that cage, not those spring loaded screws because the company bought a job lot of the things several years ago. If it has to move on those spring loaded screws, supply the amp with a screwdriver. Even with a screwdriver, peering through a dark powder-coated cage on to a dark powder-coated panel trying to locate a black flat-head screw to a dark powder-coated hole in a place where it's almost impossible to shine light on the subject is pretty much unconscionable.
Yes, it sounds excellent - I did hear it in situ, and it comes very close to the ART stereo in performance terms (and the case there does use locator pins, IIRC). But it's little corner-cutting exercises that undermine an otherwise remarkable bit of equipment.
Rant over - enjoy your LP125sa. It's an outstanding amplifier.
Audioman
29-04-2013, 10:04
Actually, I didn't review it... Roy Gregory did. I only photographed the amp. And no, there is no screwdriver supplied and yes, the state of that top plate is a big criticism of the amplifier.
For the money - forget that, for a tenth of the money - c-j should be putting those transformers in their own solid non-user-removable, non-rattling case, the valve cage should be standalone and they should be using pins to locate that cage, not those spring loaded screws because the company bought a job lot of the things several years ago. If it has to move on those spring loaded screws, supply the amp with a screwdriver. Even with a screwdriver, peering through a dark powder-coated cage on to a dark powder-coated panel trying to locate a black flat-head screw to a dark powder-coated hole in a place where it's almost impossible to shine light on the subject is pretty much unconscionable.
Yes, it sounds excellent - I did hear it in situ, and it comes very close to the ART stereo in performance terms (and the case there does use locator pins, IIRC). But it's little corner-cutting exercises that undermine an otherwise remarkable bit of equipment.
Rant over - enjoy your LP125sa. It's an outstanding amplifier.
At £8K no excuses for lack of finish. I've heard of paying for the badge but at least the badge is usually accompanied by a bit of bling.
Paul.
I'm sure it is a fine sounding amplifier but I couldn't own one. Too many little grandchildren with curious fingers visit our house for one and secondly, I'd begrudge paying that kind of money for something that appears to be half finished. Mind you Alex, rght now I'd probably settle for an amp that looked like the arse end of a Domkey but that actually worked. I have the opposite problem just now :(
Actually, I didn't review it... Roy Gregory did. I only photographed the amp. And no, there is no screwdriver supplied and yes, the state of that top plate is a big criticism of the amplifier.
For the money - forget that, for a tenth of the money - c-j should be putting those transformers in their own solid non-user-removable, non-rattling case, the valve cage should be standalone and they should be using pins to locate that cage, not those spring loaded screws because the company bought a job lot of the things several years ago. If it has to move on those spring loaded screws, supply the amp with a screwdriver. Even with a screwdriver, peering through a dark powder-coated cage on to a dark powder-coated panel trying to locate a black flat-head screw to a dark powder-coated hole in a place where it's almost impossible to shine light on the subject is pretty much unconscionable.
Yes, it sounds excellent - I did hear it in situ, and it comes very close to the ART stereo in performance terms (and the case there does use locator pins, IIRC). But it's little corner-cutting exercises that undermine an otherwise remarkable bit of equipment.
Rant over - enjoy your LP125sa. It's an outstanding amplifier.
Alan,
Thanks for setting me straight. I would agree with all of what you have said about the ergonomics of the case work and the difficulty of getting the valve cage off and on again. Thankfully I won't have to be doing it too often!.
Happily I am delighted by the sound quality, so my gripes about the casework (which I knew about beforehand) are receding now that it is in situ. I look forward to reading Roy's review when it is published.
Reading everyone's comments I am struck by how important the cosmetic aspects of a product are to everyone. I am prepared to put up with the more 'hair shirt' aspects of the design for the SQ, but it seems I am in a minority!. C-J appear to be somewhat out of step with the expectations of the market in this regard. Chi-products have universally good casework as they understand that perceived value is strongly influenced by how a product looks -sometimes they can be excellent, sometimes not and looks and performance clearly aren't well correlated!. Having said that my Cambridge Audio Azur 851C has lovely casework and sounds excellent too, so clearly good SQ doesn't REQUIRE it to look like crap (not that I think my amp does). I do understand what the material content of the amp is, and why it can't cost 50%, 25% or whatever of what it does and I chose freely based on what was most important to me, i.e. how it sounds in my system.
Now that the valve cover is on and it is in place in the rack, it looks industrial and workmanlike and doesn't draw attention to itself negatively.
Cheers,
Alex
walpurgis
29-04-2013, 11:12
The sound is what counts. Looks are secondary, especially to me.
Audioman
29-04-2013, 11:38
I think the problem here for most people is not the cosmetics but what is expected at a certain price level. Conrad Johnson is great sounding kit by anybody's standards but if you pay for premium priced US imports you should get a premium product in sound, design and construction.
I think the problem here for most people is not the cosmetics but what is expected at a certain price level. Conrad Johnson is great sounding kit by anybody's standards but if you pay for premium priced US imports you should get a premium product in sound, design and construction.
Fair enough, and I agree to an extent. I think some are inferring the wrong things about the sound quality, design and construction precisely because of the cosmetics. The circuit design, quality of components selected, build quality and the resulting sound are without doubt, very good.
I think I am starting to sound a little defensive, so I will leave it at that. I understand that we don't all have the same decision factors or make the same choices and am fine with that!.:cool:
Ali Tait
29-04-2013, 11:52
+1. My room is full of fugly diy stuff, I'm not bothered what it looks like. If I was to spend a large chunk on something commercial, I'd expect it to look as good as it sounds.
Alan Sircom
29-04-2013, 11:59
Alan,
Thanks for setting me straight. I would agree with all of what you have said about the ergonomics of the case work and the difficulty of getting the valve cage off and on again. Thankfully I won't have to be doing it too often!.
Happily I am delighted by the sound quality, so my gripes about the casework (which I knew about beforehand) are receding now that it is in situ. I look forward to reading Roy's review when it is published.
Reading everyone's comments I am struck by how important the cosmetic aspects of a product are to everyone. I am prepared to put up with the more 'hair shirt' aspects of the design for the SQ, but it seems I am in a minority!. C-J appear to be somewhat out of step with the expectations of the market in this regard. Chi-products have universally good casework as they understand that perceived value is strongly influenced by how a product looks -sometimes they can be excellent, sometimes not and looks and performance clearly aren't well correlated!. Having said that my Cambridge Audio Azur 851C has lovely casework and sounds excellent too, so clearly good SQ doesn't REQUIRE it to look like a bag of nails (not that my amp does). I do understand what the material content of the amp is, and why it can't cost 50%, 25% or whatever of what it does and I chose freely based on what was most important to me, i.e. how it sounds in my system.
Now that the valve cover is on and it is in place in the rack, it looks industrial and workmanlike and doesn't draw attention to itself negatively.
Cheers,
Alex
I don't think it's down to cosmetics, but an aspect of the amplifier's industrial design. The gold and black cosmetics of c-j designs are a given; you may or may not like them, but they are what they are. The design of the valve cage (and that the valve cage extends to the traffo cover) stands apart from that.
The purpose of that cover is to hide those traffos from view and to prevent unfortunate incidents with things that can simultaneously burn, cut and electrocute you should you do something catastrophic. I like the idea in principle that the one cover is provided, because people will want to hide the exposed traffos and in the process have to protect the valves - valve cages on their own have a nasty habit of not being used. But if the design is too counter-intuitive (as this one is), that defeats the object (I wonder how many will just give up and remove the cover altogether). In addition, when fitted, the cover should not rattle like an old Trabant if you rap the top plate with your knuckles.
I think the problem here is two-fold. One: you can get less-good sounding products for a lot less, that do address all these concerns of both aesthetics and product design. They may not sound as good, but if people are increasingly buying products without prior audition, the c-j amp will suffer because of that. Second: it's not like this is impossible to overcome - its rivals have all raised their games in terms of industrial design to give a better fit and finish to products, why can't c-j.
Ultimately, this shouldn't be viewed as brand destruction (which, unfortunately, is often how any criticism is read - because there's a knee-jerk "Well, I'm not going to be buying that!" round of comments from people who would probably not be buying the product anyway). But needs to be viewed as a call to action from a brand that makes some outstanding products, but needs to stop resting on its laurels when it comes to industrial design.
Sonically, the amplifier more than lives up to its price tag, but the worry is that's not enough any more.
Alan,
Yes, I think that it is a more of a practical usability issue with the industrial design than a cosmetic one (which is a lesser issue IMHO). Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and it looks fine to me.
I do like products to be well designed for USE, and as I said at the start of the tread I was prevented from using it out-of-the-box because of the daft design of the fixings for the cage. The correct screwdriver cost me £1.30 and it really should have been included as a necessary accessory tool to enable the product to be used!.
When I refitted the cage after a few days of checking the biasing, it actually went straight back on without an issue, but my previous comments about the poor design and usability of the fixings stand. locating pins should have been used to guide the cage, along with side-mounted fixings that don't require use of a torch to locate!.
Regards,
Alex
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