View Full Version : New MC Cartridge - Help Needed
I need to replace my AT OC9 ML II. Some things it does well, but the things it doesn’t do quite so well are frustrating.
On joining this forum I mentioned in my intro that in the chain of LP12/Ittok/Icon Audio PS 1.2/Musical Fidelity A5cr Pre and Power/ProAc response D28's it sounds a little too hard and bright: lot's of incisive detail and clarity which I want to obviously keep but the background harshness has to go on my next cartridge. A little more bottom end weight and warmth would also be welcome.
I’ve had some useful guidance and suggestions from forum members, but I now need to move forward with a short list.
1 Benz Micro Ace S L (Seems to review well everywhere)
2 Dynavector DV20X2 (Looks promising but has been described as “possibly dull” – admittedly on a new example. Also described as “Dark” – anyone explain?)
3 Audio Technica AT 33EV (Would I get more of the same as it’s another Audio Technica – or how much better is it than the OC9 (if at all?))
4 Ortofon Cadenza Red (Top end of what I’d like to pay and looks a b*gger to connect – would need a compelling reason to go this route)
5 Benz Micro Glider – if I’m up at Cadenza Red money this comes into play: but is it just a naked Ace?
If anyone can quantify the sound qualities of the above it’d be a big help to me – especially if in comparison to each other. Even better would be their listening experiences in relation to the OC9 II.
Shelter 501 was also suggested but there doesn’t seem an easy route to get one of these except via Hong Kong which I have no issue with but it’s “fiddly” by comparison. Would the effort be worth it and does it blow the rest away?
I’ve not been able to listen to any of these so the list is just from reviews (dangerous – the OC9 was bought on the same basis) and comments (personal preferences come into play and we all tell it differently because we like different things). It’s also just one item in the chain and has to fit with the arm / phono stage etc.
As it’s so difficult to demo cartridges now, I guess this is about the only way to narrow things down a bit: views are welcome.
Looks like you've got it well sorted guv'nor. The OC9 can sound thin and too light in the bass for some, whereas my experiences of the 20X2 are the opposite - full bass but "restrained" up-top possibly. depends on system obviously, and I was always a fan of the 17D series, with many don't like for similar reasons as the OC9..
freefallrob
26-04-2013, 09:00
The Goldring Eroica LX LOMC is incredibly well balanced and tracks superbly. However I haven't compared it to the others you mention.
Most people were surprised how good it was at Scalford this year.
I sympathise; this is a common dilemma these days, and as you say, the opinion of other people is...their opinion.
So, all I can suggest is try to find a helpful dealer, some do demo cartridges. And with the qualification about individual preferences in mind, I would point to the Glider. Mainly because I know it is better balanced that an 0c9 (far too bright for me), sounds excellent and has good trade-ins. Don't know the Ace so can't comment. Given your tastes, you might steer clear of Lyra stuff, which tends to favour the treble. A good Ortofon might do the trick, but in truth many mc unit have a rising treble. On more left-field line, you might look at a Grado moving iron. They are warmer and rather fine, the wooden bodied ones anyway. Good luck, it's not easy.
for your cart replacement, have a word with expert stylus, they offer a very good px scheme on Benz carts.
I tried a glider and found it very good, even handed across the range, and a real joy to listen to. I compared it at the time to a Apheta and Dynavector. In the end I stayed with the Apheta, with the glider running it a very close second. The Glider being more balanced, the Apheta a little brighter, with a little more attack. I use a ios phono stage which probably helped the apheta more than the glider, although both seemed at their best with 100 ohm loading.
The dyna was the ''old'' model, and I understand that the x2 version is a little lighter sounding. It had really good tone and texture, and was as well balanced as the glider. I can only assume what people describe as dark sounding is the overall tonality, and can understand what they mean, but can not describe it in words, other than to say it does not have the same top end sparkle and freedom as the Glider or Apheta, which may or may not be a good thing.
I have since been told that the Glider shares the same generator as the ace sl, and you pay more for the body. I don't know if its true or not, I do however think the glider has something over the ace, but that is a reaction from hearing them in a different system.
Audioman
26-04-2013, 09:38
Bob.
The difficulty is finding dealers that will dem cartridges and stock a wide range. See you are in Solihull and therefore suggest MAX nr Kidderminster. Don't know which ranges they now stock though.
As far as those you suggest are concerned I would look at the 'Benz Micro Ace SL' as it beat most of the usual suspects in a recent review. It does sound like a nice compromise between the 0C9ML II and DV20XL, both of which I have. The OC9 losses out in terms of mid range especially female vocals while the 20XL while having a lovely mid range can tend towards dullness. Another still worth considering is the Denon DL 304 but you need a phono stage that can cope with it's very low output.
Paul.
walpurgis
26-04-2013, 09:51
Another still worth considering is the Dynavector DL 304 but you need a phono stage that can cope with it's very low output.
Was that meant to be Denon DL-304?
I've owned one. It sounds sweet, but does not have a particularly weighty sound. The DL-103R is a more satisfying cartridge.
My money would be on the Shelter 501 II though.
Audioman
26-04-2013, 10:05
Was that meant to be Denon DL-304?
I've owned one. It sounds sweet, but does not have a particularly weighty sound. The DL-103R is a more satisfying cartridge.
My money would be on the Shelter 501 II though.
But the Shelter is in a different price bracket I think to other cartridges Bob is looking at. (Error Corrected !)
Was that meant to be Denon DL-304?
I've owned one. It sounds sweet, but does not have a particularly weighty sound. The DL-103R is a more satisfying cartridge.
My money would be on the Shelter 501 II though.
The Shelter 501 II does read well and the price from 2juki looks OK even with the customs risk. The words make it sound like the last cartridge anyone needs to buy - ever!
"This cartridge has treble air without brightness, transient speed without overshoot, definition without edginess, focus without sterility, and bass weight without any thick or syrupy coloration. Is this cartridge as close as you can get to top-tier performance for $800? I think it is......"
The numbers also look promising but can anyone throw light on how it sounds against others on my list? It might just be clever wordsmithing.
I'm starting to think a "Dynavector OC9 II" might be a good listen
The Shelter is a damned fine cartridge, I had a 501 before my current 5000. It majors on midrange detail, liquidity and has a good and full bass end.
Audio Al
26-04-2013, 12:30
+1 for the Eroica L
details below
The Eroica is a true audiophile moving coil cartridge which features an advanced pole shoe design using a powerful rare earth Neodymium magnet. This unique construction allows a shortened magnetic path, which helps reduce the amount of iron in the cartridge, keeping the weight down to just 5.5gms. Rigidity is also of prime importance and the Pocan body of the cartridge enables it to be clamped solidly to the headshell, keeping energy losses to an absolute minimum. This cartridge uses a Gyger II line contact stylus width a low output. The Eroica offers an exceptionally high standard of performance and reliability.
Frequency Response 20Hz-22kHz±3dB
Channel Balance 1dB max. @ 1kHz
Channel Separation 25dB @ 1kHz
Sensitivity 0.5mV±1dB, 1kHz @ 5 cm/sec
Static Compliance 18mm/N
Equivalent tip mass 0.35 mg
Vertical Tracking Angle 20°
Stylus Radius Gyger II
Stylus Type Non-Replaceable
Load Resistance 100 Ohm
Load Capacitance 100-1000pF
Internal Inductance 12 µH
Internal Resistance 8 Ohm
Cartridge Weight 5.5g
Fixing Centre 0.5�?� (12.7mm)
Playing Weight
I2 Dynavector DV20X2 (Looks promising but has been described as “possibly dull” – admittedly on a new example. Also described as “Dark” – anyone explain?)
.
Well I have one of these and it sounds stunning - not at all dull or dark.
DSJR and I dont see totally eye to eye on this cart but for me it is the perfect mix of PRaT and musicality -
BUT it is very SUT dependent. When I was using a PureSound T10 it was OK but not startling - I now have a Dynavector SUP-200 and it has just come alive.
There are other threads here about SUT/cartridge synergy and I guess before my experience I didnt pay it much heed but I am now a believer so I would say that cartridge choice should not be made in isolation but as a cartridge/SUT package which probably makes it even harder to get a good demo :eyebrows:
Marco has elsewhere commented that a good starting point is to use the same manufacturer for SUT and cart as they are likely to be "voiced" the same - that certainly seems true for the Dynavectors
Steve
I completely agree that SUT and cartridge need to be selected carefully as a package, but it doesn't have to be from the same manufacturer. A good SUT certainly does show the Dynavectors in their best light, and the 20X2L is an organic and potent sounding unit with a well matched SUT. I wouldn't say that it has sparkle, though, as that's not what the DV is all about.
be selected carefully as a package, but it doesn't have to be from the same manufacturer.
Agree Martin - I guess though it's a good starting point when it can be so difficult to audition SUT's & cartridges various.
I know I am very happy now with what the 20x2 is doing.
Steve
Steve, you've found a good match and I do agree about manufacturer matched cartridge and SUT - in the first instance at any rate, and if you want to experiment afterwards, off you go :)
walpurgis
26-04-2013, 20:34
+1 for the Eroica L
The Eroica LX is musical and enjoyable. I've got one, but my Ortofon MC25 FL and ZYX R50 Bloom H beat it hands down. The ZYX is in my opinion the biggest MC bargain around. I can't think of anything at the price that competes, it sounds incredibly good on my system.
RobbieGong
26-04-2013, 20:44
The Eroica LX is musical and enjoyable. I've got one, but my Ortofon MC25 FL and ZYX R50 Bloom H beat it hands down. The ZYX is in my opinion the biggest MC bargain around. I can't think of anything at the price that competes, it sounds incredibly good on my system.
I keep reading good things about the ZYX R50 Bloom :)
walpurgis
26-04-2013, 20:48
I keep reading good things about the ZYX R50 Bloom :)
I see you're in London too. You could have a listen to mine some time if you're not too far away (on a great sounding system I might add).
RobbieGong
26-04-2013, 20:50
I see you're in London too. You could have a listen to mine some time if you're not too far away (on a great sounding system I might add).
Lol ! I may well take you up on that before the summers out (assuming we get one :eek:) :lol:
Audio Al
26-04-2013, 23:48
I see you're in London too. You could have a listen to mine some time if you're not too far away (on a great sounding system I might add).
I am not too far away as well If you have room for another intruder :lol:
I completely agree that SUT and cartridge need to be selected carefully as a package, but it doesn't have to be from the same manufacturer. A good SUT certainly does show the Dynavectors in their best light, and the 20X2L is an organic and potent sounding unit with a well matched SUT. I wouldn't say that it has sparkle, though, as that's not what the DV is all about.
Yes but no but yes! From the same manufacturer...no, agreed, however, A SUT given good design will work with any cartridge if the loading and application are carefully applied. I've mentioned this before, theres no magic involved just careful application.
I have never heard a bad ZYX and the same goes for the Bloom. However, ZYX Bloom is not everyone's cup of tea. It is very warm and silky and you have to like that kind of sound.
topoxforddoc
27-04-2013, 06:50
How about a ZYX R-50 Cartridge at about £500 or a Lyra Dorian at £650? Both the ZYX and the Lyra are excellent cartridges.
The OP is no doubt confused even further than when he posted originally now! Get a Benz, cannot go wrong with those!
Wakefield Turntables
27-04-2013, 09:11
SUT is a good move. Also the ortofon carts are very very easy to use and fit, I fitted my cadenza black in 20 seconds and never looked back.
A SUT given good design will work with any cartridge if the loading and application are carefully applied.
True, I've never heard my SUT sound anything less than superb with any of the good dozen different cartridges I've heard through it.
The OP is no doubt confused even further than when he posted originally now! Get a Benz, cannot go wrong with those!
Thanks for the thought. It's not so much confusion as being spoilt for choice. It's a very subjective process with so many variables and you can't go by the numbers.
I'd love to try or hear every cartridge that's been put forward but the practicalities of achieving this are just about zero: so the next best thing is to get people talking about their own likes and dislikes and try to form a conclusion based on the dialogue.
An imperfect way of spending £600/£700? Yes of course it is - but everyone that's contributed so far has helped me in the decision making process and has nudged me just a little towards a conclusion. But I may yet spend my cash and get it totally wrong with the newly orphaned cartridge starring on the Bay!
Even if I were able to find a dealer demoing the stuff I want it's unlikely it'd be in a replay chain the same as my own. Difficult.
Please keep the views and experiences coming...............
Cartridges are almost impossible to get demo'd and few dealers will do a sale or return on them. You are left to glean ideas from shows and friend's systems as well as positive views from forums like this one, especially where the system components, preferred music or sound are similar, and previous experience. It's always a shot in the dark until you get it running in your own system.
walpurgis
27-04-2013, 10:15
How about a ZYX R-50 Cartridge at about £500 or a Lyra Dorian at £650? Both the ZYX and the Lyra are excellent cartridges.
You have to be careful with the Lyra. It has a balance similar to the AT OC9, both are very good, but can get a bit 'in yer face' on the wrong system. They have a forward sounding top end. Mind you, I can talk, using a ZYX R100 H2 half the time, now that's a cartridge that thrusts the music at you.
walpurgis
27-04-2013, 10:17
I am not too far away as well If you have room for another intruder :lol:
You are more than welcome.
You have to be careful with the Lyra. It has a balance similar to the AT OC9, both are very good, but can get a bit 'in yer face' on the wrong system. They have a forward sounding top end. Mind you, I can talk, using a ZYX R100 H2 half the time, now that's a cartridge that thrusts the music at you.
But that's what master reecordings do :lol: Lush, sweet and refined isn't usually what well mixed recordings actually sound like in my experience, although a steely, tinselly and "digital bleached" quality isn't right either :)
The OP is no doubt confused even further than when he posted originally now! Get a Benz, cannot go wrong with those!
You don't happen to sell Benz, do you David? ;)
Thanks for the thought. It's not so much confusion as being spoilt for choice.
Please keep the views and experiences coming...............
Why not ask HiFi Dave, he has knowledge of the LP12/Ittok.
I completely agree that SUT and cartridge need to be selected carefully as a package, but it doesn't have to be from the same manufacturer.
Indeed, but it certainly helps! I'd wager that if Shelter were to produce an SUT (hardwired with no variable gain or loading DIP switches) that optimally matched your 5000, it would retire your H7... ;)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
27-04-2013, 15:42
I have an Ittok LVII and can state that a Benz cartridge works well in it. My last Benz was an utterly lovely Glider SL, but the inevitable happened and my sleeve caught the cantilever, so it was traded in for a Wood SL, which (I believe) is has the same innards better protected in a Briar wood body. I believe that the Glider is a clear level above the Ace, which must be a good bet at its price point, even though I've not heard one.
I find the Benz cartridges to be nicely balanced, musical, with nice definition, but no sense of a searing treble, which the Ittok could quite easily accentuate. They do seem to work well into a good SUT, like Martin's Choir Audio Hashimoto SUT-H. My old Bob's Devices Cinermag SUT worked well too, at a rather lower price bracket.
So, my clear recommendation is for a Benz cartridge, with the proviso that handling something without any form of stylus guard demands great care and good dexterity.
Indeed, but it certainly helps! I'd wager that if Shelter were to produce an SUT (hardwired with no variable gain or loading DIP switches) that optimally matched your 5000, it would retire your H7
Shelter do indeed make a step up transformer, the Model 411. They use a laminated permalloy torodial transformer. Original ones had a 32db gain with the later Type II having 40db gain.
Hugh
Thanks for that, Hugh! Interesting write-up here, in conjunction with their Harmony cartridge: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0809/shelter_harmony.htm
411 SUT available from here: http://www.needledoctor.com/Shelter-411MC-Step-Up-Transformer
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5811/sheltersut.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/sheltersut.jpg/)
I like it - nice and simple! Not ridiculously expensive either at $2095.... It would be interesting if you could get a listen to that, Martin :)
Marco.
That photo shows the early version if I'm not mistaken. Later ones have a silver case with wider front plate (plus the higher gain).
Hugh
Yup, like this:
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/9461/sheltersut1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/sheltersut1.jpg/)
A match made in heaven? I'd bet my boots on it :)
Marco.
walpurgis
27-04-2013, 20:29
You just know that Shelter SUT is going to be good. As Marco says and as I like, simple looking. I prefer stuff that doesn't have frills and glitz. You know the money's gone into the sound not the looks!
I prefer stuff that doesn't have frills and glitz. You know the money's gone into the sound not the looks!
:exactly:
Dynavector SUP-200 :cool:
Steve
Nice - and that's precisely what Dynavector cartridges should be paired with... Can you spot the theme here, chaps? ;)
Marco.
That Shelter SUT has a huge gain of 32dB, around x40. Im surprised as it would make the 501/5000/7000 etc at .5mV output approx. 20mV...this would overload many phono stages.
That Shelter SUT has a huge gain of 32dB, around x40. Im surprised as it would make the 501/5000/7000 etc at .5mV output approx. 20mV...this would overload many phono stages.
Indeed, my Choir has a gain of 29dB and I wouldn't want any more. As it is, I have the Whest set to the lowest gain possible.
Indeed, but it certainly helps! I'd wager that if Shelter were to produce an SUT (hardwired with no variable gain or loading DIP switches) that optimally matched your 5000, it would retire your H7... ;)
And I would wager that my 5000 is the limiting factor in performance, not the Hashimotos. Perhaps a 9000 or Harmony might get there.
I think that your 5000 is a superb sounding cartridge (one of the best I've heard), but I know what you mean.
However, for me, it's more about voicing, and the subsequent sonic synergy gained from that between the products of one manufacturer, than limiting factors. You can bet your boots that the Shelter 411 SUT would've been 'voiced' with their cartridges in mind (indeed most likely designed in unison with them), and so for me, if one is using a Shelter cartridge, that is probably where the ultimate synergy lies..... ;)
Marco.
Anti Meep
28-04-2013, 06:18
I have a Benz Ace SH and while I really loved it, I did find it a bit lifeless after a year or so. I'm currently listening to a DV20x which to my ears is far more lively.
The Benz was feeding my DV P75mk2 MM input though where as the DV20x is feeding into the MC stage so there may be differences there. Also the whole Dynavector/Well Tempered synergy thing may be a factor here.
I did however buy a NOS SAE 1000lt which is a high output MC that bettered the Benz by a long shot. This is only according to my ears though. It's a tough road to hoe when changing cartridges. It's a shame we can't demo them. A really good dealer should work hard to get the best outcome for you though.
Having said all that, I know of another member here who has recently added an A23 SUT to his Benz Ace SL and is very very happy.
Craig.
I have a Benz Ace SH and while I really loved it, I did find it a bit lifeless after a year or so. I'm currently listening to a DV20x which to my ears is far more lively.
The Benz was feeding my DV P75mk2 MM input though where as the DV20x is feeding into the MC stage so there may be differences there.
I did however buy a NOS SAE 1000lt which is a high output MC that bettered the Benz by a long shot. Craig.
Interesting comments Craig, thanks.
I had seen those SAE 1000LT's for sale as NOS, and reviews I've read are all positive. At the price they're going for it's almost worth a punt to find out: I'm just slightly reticent as they're of indeterminate age. Anyone able to comment regarding longevity and ownership / sound characteristics?
I'd be gutted after all this to find an outstanding cartridge that dies within 6 months. But then again an AT F5 OCC I once had lasted 20 years......
That SAE cart looks really interesting, you can buy from e-bay.de for £217 posted however I found a thread on audio Karma which said that they were $200 Canadian in 2011 and that the carts were from the seventies.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260304313907&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:de#ht_2756wt_1139
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=388028
"Must be a pile of these cartridges laying around somewhere as William Thacker has em on the bay, too.
These are the same as the early Adcom HOMC cartridges from the late 70s-early 80s. I have an XCLT that is in rotation with other and it performs well."
But then again an AT F5 OCC I once had lasted 20 years......
I have a Dynavector 20A2 high output MC that I bought some 30 years ago. It still sounds good but could do with a retip when I get around to it one day.
Anti Meep
29-04-2013, 03:39
Interesting comments Craig, thanks.
I had seen those SAE 1000LT's for sale as NOS, and reviews I've read are all positive. At the price they're going for it's almost worth a punt to find out: I'm just slightly reticent as they're of indeterminate age. Anyone able to comment regarding longevity and ownership / sound characteristics?
I'd be gutted after all this to find an outstanding cartridge that dies within 6 months. But then again an AT F5 OCC I once had lasted 20 years......
I bought mine locally from a guy who never got round to mounting it. NZD$300.00 so it was a bit of an impulse buy. it wasn't until I'd bid on it that I did some homework and found some really positive feedback.
I had no serious expectations so was blown away when it trounced my Benz. Beautiful organic sense of rhythm with more detail than the Benz.
The age thing is just part of the risk. When I compare it to the Benz though I tend to figure that the bang for buck out weighs the risk factor.
Craig.
I had no serious expectations so was blown away when it trounced my Benz. Beautiful organic sense of rhythm with more detail than the Benz.
The age thing is just part of the risk. When I compare it to the Benz though I tend to figure that the bang for buck out weighs the risk factor.
Craig.
I admit that since reading about this cartridge here and elsewhere it's been a temptation wriggling on my shoulder. I was more or less decided on a Benz Ace at £525 but this SAE 1000LT at £225 is hard to ignore, so I've just ordered one.
Not so much because of the price (but when we're taking risks like "buying unheard" price is useful) but more because of the very positive things everyone has to say about it - and not just on this forum. After reading what has been written it'd always be a nagging doubt because I'd not heard it - no matter how good the Ace turned out to be.
I'll post my impressions - good or bad - when it's arrived and been running for a few hours. I guess we're either looking at Bargain of the Decade or yet another instance of a fool and his money..... (you know the rest).
The age thing is something I'm prepared to take a risk on.
Audioman
29-04-2013, 12:03
I admit that since reading about this cartridge here and elsewhere it's been a temptation wriggling on my shoulder. I was more or less decided on a Benz Ace at £525 but this SAE 1000LT at £225 is hard to ignore, so I've just ordered one.
Not so much because of the price (but when we're taking risks like "buying unheard" price is useful) but more because of the very positive things everyone has to say about it - and not just on this forum. After reading what has been written it'd always be a nagging doubt because I'd not heard it - no matter how good the Ace turned out to be.
I'll post my impressions - good or bad - when it's arrived and been running for a few hours. I guess we're either looking at Bargain of the Decade or yet another instance of a fool and his money..... (you know the rest).
The age thing is something I'm prepared to take a risk on.
You are aware it's a high output MC (2.5mv). I think others have pointed out the negatives of these devices. Nearly pulled the trigger myself until I read the description.
You are aware it's a high output MC (2.5mv). I think others have pointed out the negatives of these devices. Nearly pulled the trigger myself until I read the description.
You can buy a LO version, think the cat no is 900e.
As an aside what are the negatives of a HOMC cart?
I have a Denon DL-110 HOMC and is fine, really like too.
http://www.jims-sae-site.com/sae_phono.htm
I admit that since reading about this cartridge here and elsewhere it's been a temptation wriggling on my shoulder. I was more or less decided on a Benz Ace at £525 but this SAE 1000LT at £225 is hard to ignore, so I've just ordered one.
Not so much because of the price (but when we're taking risks like "buying unheard" price is useful) but more because of the very positive things everyone has to say about it - and not just on this forum. After reading what has been written it'd always be a nagging doubt because I'd not heard it - no matter how good the Ace turned out to be.
I'll post my impressions - good or bad - when it's arrived and been running for a few hours. I guess we're either looking at Bargain of the Decade or yet another instance of a fool and his money..... (you know the rest).
The age thing is something I'm prepared to take a risk on.
You can get the 'e' version for £181 posted, apparently there's no big difference in SQ from the LT.
I'm very tempted myself but I've just bought a SH cart on here for £75 so thought I would hold fire until I've tried that one.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200512254014?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
You are aware it's a high output MC (2.5mv). I think others have pointed out the negatives of these devices. Nearly pulled the trigger myself until I read the description.
Yes, I did note that but thanks: it's considerably higher than the 0.4mV I have on the OC9.
The gain control on the Icon Audio PS1.2 gives me a degree of flexibility. It'll be interesting and educational if nothing else.
I'm kind of with Albert Einstein on this: “I haven’t failed, I just found 100,000 ways that don’t work.” (make that 100,001 or maybe not....?).
morris_minor
29-04-2013, 13:58
I bought a couple of SAE1000 carts from Thakker's German site a while back - an E and an LT. I'm using the E at the moment and very happy with it. The LT is being saved for when the E bites the dust . . .
Audioman
29-04-2013, 14:24
You can buy a LO version, think the cat no is 900e.
As an aside what are the negatives of a HOMC cart?
I have a Denon DL-110 HOMC and is fine, really like too.
http://www.jims-sae-site.com/sae_phono.htm
2.5mv will overload a typical MC stage but is half a typical MM output. You need a stage that can accommodate the higher output while maintaining MC loading. The ideal will not likely be MM std 47 kohm (though it may work OK). Could not find a low output version in the sellers shop.
2.5mv will overload a typical MC stage but is half a typical MM output. You need a stage that can accommodate the higher output while maintaining MC loading. The ideal will not likely be MM std 47 kohm (though it may work OK). Could not find a low output version in the sellers shop.
I see that the Denon's output voltage is 1.6mV, is this a big difference from 2.5mV?.
Load resitance on the Denon is "more than 47 kOhms" according to the Denon instructions.
Don't think there were many LO versions available if any but believe the carts were made by Coral under that brand name and with the name Adcom too, maybe a search with those names will throw something up?
Audioman
29-04-2013, 15:17
I see that the Denon's output voltage is 1.6mV, is this a big difference from 2.5mV?.
0.9mv is equivalent to twice the typical output of a low output MC.
Load resitance on the Denon is "more than 47 kOhms" according to the Denon instructions.
Does sound the Denon is designed for MM loading but it's output is rather too low for typical MM gain. :scratch:
0.9mv is equivalent to twice the typical output of a low output MC.
Does sound the Denon is designed for MM loading but it's output is rather too low for typical MM gain. :scratch:
I've no problem with the Denon re gain (volume) played through an A&R A60 amp with the onboard MM stage, I have to turn the volume up a bit though compared to the tuner or CD input, probably to about 2 oclock vs 12 oclock for the other inputs.
I'm running a Van den Hull DDT-II special through a FR-3 SUT, sweet sound. but can sound bright in some systems due to silver coils in the cart.
2.5mv will overload a typical MC stage but is half a typical MM output. You need a stage that can accommodate the higher output while maintaining MC loading. The ideal will not likely be MM std 47 kohm (though it may work OK). Could not find a low output version in the sellers shop.
Digging deeper I find on http://www.jims-sae-site.com/sae_phono.htm that:-
Load Impedance SAE 1000 series is 47k ohms (non critical). The Phono Stage spec quotes 47k ohms for the MM input.
Does this not suggest the SAE 1000LT will work fine with the PS switched to MM (which cuts out the X10 step up transformer included for MC)?
I guess I'll be finding out next week. The SAE was dispatched from Germany yesterday.
morris_minor
30-04-2013, 13:29
Digging deeper I find on http://www.jims-sae-site.com/sae_phono.htm that:-
Load Impedance SAE 1000 series is 47k ohms (non critical). The Phono Stage spec quotes 47k ohms for the MM input.
Does this not suggest the SAE 1000LT will work fine with the PS switched to MM (which cuts out the X10 step up transformer included for MC)?
I guess I'll be finding out next week. The SAE was dispatched from Germany yesterday.
I use a Graham Slee Reflex M phono stage with my SAE and it forms a great combo; no need for any SUT . . . :)
I know this is off topic so apologies to the OP but I've just bought a SH Goldring G-900IGC MM cart from a forum member here and it sounds absolutey fantastic to my ears but it's quite an old cart and I doubt there's not an awful lot of of life left in the stylus however I'm still quite keen on buying one of those SAE carts.
Anyone have any idea how these two carts sound relative to each other and would the SAE be a good replacement for the Goldring?
I've read that these Goldring carts were amongst the very best MM carts ever produced only bettered by some Technics carts of the same period.
If the SAE cart sounded anything as good as the Goldring then I for one would be delighted to buy one.
RobbieGong
30-04-2013, 19:44
I love any MM / MC comparisons, usually quite interesting :eyebrows:
I love any MM / MC comparisons, usually quite interesting :eyebrows:
:doh:
RobbieGong
30-04-2013, 20:43
:doh:
Ok maybe not :lol:
walpurgis
30-04-2013, 21:30
I've read that these Goldring carts were amongst the very best MM carts ever produced only bettered by some Technics carts of the same period.
Not sure ADC users would entirely agree. The Goldrings were nice and the Technics were very good indeed. There were others, Grace, Excel and JVC spring to mind. I used a variety of the better Goldring MMs and would not put them at the top of the tree.
Have you heard a good ADC? I have several and they are truly exceptional by any MM standard and will out perform many MCs for sheer sound quality.
Not sure ADC users would entirely agree. The Goldrings were nice and the Technics were very good indeed. There were others, Grace, Excel and JVC spring to mind. I used a variety of the better Goldring MMs and would not put them at the top of the tree.
Have you heard a good ADC? I have several and they are truly exceptional by any MM standard and will out perform many MCs for sheer sound quality.
Hi Geoff, no I've not heard any of those cart you mention.
I am a complete noob to be honest:D
I did have a pretty nice Pioneer stack system when I got married thirty odd years ago which included a decent TT but back then I wouldn't have known a good cart from a bad one, then you just basically bought records and played them to death:lol:
I paid £500 for that system, had to take out a bank loan at the time, we are talking about 1981/2.
I could only afford the second from the bottom set up but I loved it and I've only really got back into vinyl in the past two years or so.
Tony
walpurgis
30-04-2013, 22:55
Hi Tony,
what are you using now systemwise?
Bags of people on here leading you to financial ruin if you let them. I like to think I can get the best bang for my bucks when I buy something new for the Hi-Fi.
Hi Tony,
what are you using now systemwise?
Bags of people on here leading you to financial ruin if you let them. I like to think I can get the best bang for my bucks when I buy something new for the Hi-Fi.
Hi Geoff, I've an AR The Turntable with an AT1120 arm and of course the Goldring, my amp is an A&R A60 with onboard MM stage and speakers are JR149s.
I've a couple of other cheap carts and the Denon DL-110 which is pretty much well used now.
The Goldring cart is as good as I've heard my vinyl so quite happy with that but I would upgrade the cart and flog off the Goldring and the other cheapo carts to help fund that.
My tuner is an A&R T21 and the CDP is an Arcam FMJ CD23T which is now rarely used as my listening habits are mainly fm radio and vinyl now but it's such a good player I don't know if I would want to sell it but it is worth about £350 on a good day:eyebrows:
I've just bought a cheap DAB module SH to catch some digital radio stations that I like which don't broadcast on fm, this will also go into the amp.
I'm also looking for a cheap decent DAC to run my TV into then into the amp, at the moment the TV is connected to the amp with phonos, and also maybe hook up my laptop to the DAC or run an external HDD into the DAC via usb then also into the amp.
I'm actually runing out of inputs on the amp:doh:
Tony
walpurgis
30-04-2013, 23:41
That's a distinctly unusual line up you've got there Tony.
the AR TT and AT arm with the Goldring are actually a good match. If you like it, stick with it. Better will cost you!
The A60 is not one of my favourites. Many here on AOS may disagree, but I found it dull and bland. It did nothing wrong, but lacked real ability (only my opinion, before I get slated).
The JR 149 has its followers, mainly in the LS3/5a clan. But it's not a bad speaker, just don't expect any great dynamics. If you want a very good sounding small speaker with proper wellie that won't break the bank, have a look for a pair of original 80's Mission 780 SE's! They are remarkable!
I won't comment on tuners as I don't use them any more. As for DACs, mine are oldish (but very good), and I don't know what would suit your purposes.
That's a distinctly unusual line up you've got there Tony.
the AR TT and AT arm with the Goldring are actually a good match. If you like it, stick with it. Better will cost you!
The A60 is not one of my favourites. Many here on AOS may disagree, but I found it dull and bland. It did nothing wrong, but lacked real ability (only my opinion, before I get slated).
The JR 149 has its followers, mainly in the LS3/5a clan. But it's not a bad speaker, just don't expect any great dynamics. If you want a very good sounding small speaker with proper wellie that won't break the bank, have a look for a pair of original 80's Mission 780 SE's! They are remarkable!
I won't comment on tuners as I don't use them any more. As for DACs, mine are oldish (but very good), and I don't know what would suit your purposes.
Thanks Geoff, appreciate the advice:cool:
Apologies to the OP for going way off topic:eek:
Apologies to the OP for going way off topic:eek:
No probs - it's all knowledge.
Have you heard a good ADC? I have several and they are truly exceptional by any MM standard and will out perform many MCs for sheer sound quality.
I've been hinting at that for years, but not sure of these sentiments will fall and germinate here ;)
The G900IGC could sound a bit astringent in systems designed for soft and beefy sounding cartridges. In todays generally more balance systems, this should never be an issue I reckon. I'm sadly minded of dems I did with the Technics 205 III and hating the bloody thing 'cos it sounded too thin and hard for me. later experiences proved the total opposite - bloody 1980's Linn and Naim :steam:
walpurgis
01-05-2013, 18:01
Dave, did you ever try the Technics EPC-305 MC?
I had one for years, bought new in the early eighties. It was my favourite MC, Supex SD900, Fidelty Research 301MC, various Dynavectors and Ortofons etc. and even a couple Decca Exports came and went, but the Technics stayed. It was superb. I only sold it a couple of years ago when I bought the ZYX R50 Bloom!
Robert Onion
25-05-2013, 21:09
I need to replace my AT OC9 ML II. Some things it does well, but the things it doesn’t do quite so well are frustrating.
On joining this forum I mentioned in my intro that in the chain of LP12/Ittok/Icon Audio PS 1.2/Musical Fidelity A5cr Pre and Power/ProAc response D28's it sounds a little too hard and bright: lot's of incisive detail and clarity which I want to obviously keep but the background harshness has to go on my next cartridge. A little more bottom end weight and warmth would also be welcome.
I’ve had some useful guidance and suggestions from forum members, but I now need to move forward with a short list.
1 Benz Micro Ace S L (Seems to review well everywhere)
2 Dynavector DV20X2 (Looks promising but has been described as “possibly dull” – admittedly on a new example. Also described as “Dark” – anyone explain?)
3 Audio Technica AT 33EV (Would I get more of the same as it’s another Audio Technica – or how much better is it than the OC9 (if at all?))
4 Ortofon Cadenza Red (Top end of what I’d like to pay and looks a b*gger to connect – would need a compelling reason to go this route)
5 Benz Micro Glider – if I’m up at Cadenza Red money this comes into play: but is it just a naked Ace?
If anyone can quantify the sound qualities of the above it’d be a big help to me – especially if in comparison to each other. Even better would be their listening experiences in relation to the OC9 II.
Shelter 501 was also suggested but there doesn’t seem an easy route to get one of these except via Hong Kong which I have no issue with but it’s “fiddly” by comparison. Would the effort be worth it and does it blow the rest away?
I’ve not been able to listen to any of these so the list is just from reviews (dangerous – the OC9 was bought on the same basis) and comments (personal preferences come into play and we all tell it differently because we like different things). It’s also just one item in the chain and has to fit with the arm / phono stage etc.
As it’s so difficult to demo cartridges now, I guess this is about the only way to narrow things down a bit: views are welcome.
On an Ittok, a Dynavector DV20X2 would be a good match it terms of compliance. Lots of Linn users recommend Dynavectors as a good mechanical and tonal match.
They do, but I'm not a big fan. The Dynavector's always sound a bit tonally bleached for me.
On an Ittok, a Dynavector DV20X2 would be a good match it terms of compliance. Lots of Linn users recommend Dynavectors as a good mechanical and tonal match.
Thanks for the note, Ant. Do you have experience of this combo and if so what are your impressions?
Opinions seem to be divided..........
Dave, did you ever try the Technics EPC-305 MC?
I had one for years, bought new in the early eighties. It was my favourite MC, Supex SD900, Fidelty Research 301MC, various Dynavectors and Ortofons etc. and even a couple Decca Exports came and went, but the Technics stayed. It was superb. I only sold it a couple of years ago when I bought the ZYX R50 Bloom!
Yes, and also the Best Buy mm model in mk3 guise. To my eternal shame, the mm didn't work with our (now) hideous Linn/Naim systems (too neutral) and although the MC model was liked very much, the main focus went elsewhere :( and Technics wanted more of their (by then) low cost crap stocked at minimal profit margin as well, so we just carried on for a few years with Panasonic TV's until they too demanded too much turnover :(
Quick idea of margins back then on Panny/Technics - 15K per annum for 15% margin, £25K minimum for 25%. Most HiFi electronics forms give around 35% margin with quick-pay settlement and some speakers now offer up to 50% to the chains, but these chains have to commit to a huge turnover to get it!
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