Tisbury Audio Mini Passive Pre-amp [Archive]

jandl100

25-04-2013, 06:34

Oooo - I've come across a rather special product - I feel a mini-review coming on! :lol:

My luvverly Restek Consens pre has been, just occasionally, playing up a bit :scratch: ... so I thought I'd get in a backup device just in case it has to be sent off for some TLC.

I'd heard 'word on the streets' that the Tisbury passive pre (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181055126076?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649) was interesting, so I have duly invested in one to have a go.

Unbelievably cute, and very well made and finished indeed, this wee beastie measures a mere 11x4.7cm at it's faceplate.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF8979_zps0add0267.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSCF8979_zps0add0267.jpg.html)
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF8981_zps90bd2277.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSCF8981_zps90bd2277.jpg.html)

Pretty much any combo of inputs and outputs can be had, as long as there are 4 of them!

Lifting some of the blurb from the eBay ad .....
"A passive preamp with a precision SMD stepped attenuator, silver plated OFC wire with PTFE sleeve, silver plated selector switch, and exceptional quality CMC gold connectors. The enclosure is anodised aluminium with a solid wooden front made from american black walnut. .... The volume control is a precise, audiophile grade 21 step attenuator with an array of laser trimmed SMD resistors, giving a tolerance of +/- 0.25dB .... These are available in 10Kohm (standard) or 50Kohm which can be used with tube based sources.
We also Alps Blue Velvet potentiometers which can be used instead of the stepped attenuator"

I have the stepped attenuator version. The steps in volume are about right with my speakers (mid 80dB/W sensitivity); not too large a jump per step.

The sonics are a bit surprising. Very clear and lucid, the transparency on offer is way beyond the normal run of low price passives, and leaves some high priced ones in its wake as well! It may not have quite the rez in the mids of my very high rez active Restek, but it's still to a very high standard and can make for a more cumfy listen than the 'warts & all' Restek, which can be a little forthright in the upper registers. Another comparison is with the TVC passive pre-amps - it's less cosy and warm than they generally are, ime, and has higher rez across the freq band. I've had several TVC pre-amps and enjoyed them, but imo the Tisbury is better; more accurate and revealing.

Unlike many non-TVC passives, dynamics are not noticeably diminished - TVCs are good at this, as well, ime.
Bass is more than a little astonishing in its clarity, control and power. Really special.
Treble is very extended and open, detailed, focussed and pure.
Imaging is ... well, it's beautiful, both laterally and in-depth. Nicely focussed and very believable.

A great, genuine high end product at a very low price for the sq it delivers, imho. My Restek pre is on gardening leave at the moment. :eyebrows:

Ali Tait

25-04-2013, 09:13

Looks good value Jerry.

realysm42

25-04-2013, 10:19

Sounds good.

Aren't passive preamps meant to not have as much control when it comes to scale and bass?

I've no experience of any preamps; just trying to figure things out.

jandl100

25-04-2013, 10:30

Aren't passive preamps meant to not have as much control when it comes to scale and bass?

Yep. But! --

Listening again this morning - the bass is just astonishing in its power, depth articulation and control. I ain't not never heard it this good before -- active (valve or solid state), passive (resistive or transformer based). Hmm. Maybe it's just hit it lucky with the particular characteristics of my system. :scratch:

realysm42

25-04-2013, 10:32

Interesting.

And well done! If its working that week that's great news.

But it makes nothing clearer for me :eyebrows:

jandl100

25-04-2013, 10:40

But it makes nothing clearer for me :eyebrows:

Me neither!

myles

25-04-2013, 10:48

I dropped your name across on the 'Wam, as some guy was asking about exactly this.

jandl100

25-04-2013, 10:55

I dropped your name across on the 'Wam, as some guy was asking about exactly this.

I've dropped the OP - Steve 'Bourney' - a PM about it already.

I really don't want to get involved in a Wam punch-up about the active/passive debate! :nono: :lol:

Tarzan

25-04-2013, 19:33

Looks interesting Jerry:popcorn:

apollo

26-04-2013, 06:04

Congratulations on the pre. I myself use a passive pre in my setup and can attest to the transparency and accuracy.:cheers:

The thing about resistor based passive is that they are incredibly transparent compared to most of the active preamps, because its extremely difficult to design an active circuit playing with such small signal levels which a preamp works with. Well designed ones are super expensive. OTOH, the resistor based passive because of the use of just passive components with minimum level of signal distortion, can be made very accurate.

However,

They have no active circuit or a transformer (like a TVC) and hence no impedance matching. Low output impedance from the source and high input impedance of the power amp is required. Also a short low capacitance interconnect between the pre and power is essential to bring the best out of a passive.
They only attenuate the signal coming from the source, hence a high source output coupled with high input sensitivity of the power amp helps.

I see that you use a Krell 250a, which has a very high input impedance of 100k, allowing the circuit to push enough current. No doubt you are not seeing the loose or uncontrolled bass and reduced dynamics many people face when they dont take care of the impedance matching while using a resistor based passive.

But I will be interested to know what volume levels you need to use on the pre, seeing that the input sensitivity of the power amp is pretty low at 2v. Probably you don't need much of the power which the power amp can provide and hence can get away with a low drive, or your source has a tremendously high output.

jandl100

26-04-2013, 06:20

Yes, to all of the techie points above, as far as my meagre knowledge on such things goes! :) You do need careful system matching with a passive.

I have only moderate sensitivity speakers - in-room probably around 86dB/W - but I have not got close to max volume setting on the Tisbury pre, and I do play the system pretty loud at times! The Krell seems to have sufficient sensitivity / enough gain. According to the Stereophile review (http://www.stereophile.com/content/mccormack-audio-udp-1-universal-disc-player-specifications) my CD player is standard 2v output.
But with previous passive pre-amps I have owned, with very different components to those I currently own, there have been times when I couldn't get enough volume out.

Yes, as mentioned previously, the bass can be weak and loose with passives if the system synergy is not right - but by golly, it sounds wonderful in my system!

The handy thing about the Tisbury is the 30 day refund deal - so it's easy enough to try it and see if it struts its very considerable stuff for you! :)
______________

Further listening yesterday (of course!) - and the dang thing seems to be "burning in". Without a doubt, to my mind, the sound is improving still further as the hours pass pleasurably by. The sound is becoming even more fluid and lucid, the imaging becoming more naturally rounded and 3D and walk-in-able, the dynamic speed becoming more explosive. It really seems to have opened up my system to the next level.
I also suspect that each step of the stepped attenuator has to be burned in separately. It only seems to take an hour or two for this to happen. Of course, it could improve further still with more play. :eek:

It's easy to become over-enthusiastic about a new component that 'hits the spot', but I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the best pre-amp I have ever had! :scratch: Or, given the crucial role of system synergy with passive pre's, perhaps I should say that the Krell/Tisbury combo is the best amp I have ever used with the MBLs. :)

apollo

26-04-2013, 06:44

It very well can be.. when made right and matched right, passives can be incredible sounding and a tremendous bang for the buck.

The Grand Wazoo

26-04-2013, 06:59

Or, given the crucial role of system synergy with passive pre's, perhaps I should say that the Krell/Tisbury combo is the best amp I have ever used with the MBLs.

I'm glad you added that qualification Jerry because I think, that all too often, people attribute qualities to single components, when in fact, it's the collective qualities of the system that they are assessing. I think that's the sort of statement we need to see more of on AoS.

How often do you hear people saying "I heard product-X at a show/Mr Y's house and thought it was crap/great" (delete where applicable) In the context of a system in a new environment it's a meaningless statement.

jandl100

26-04-2013, 07:09

Yes - it's easy to get carried away with one's enthusiasms/hates and not see the situation in its broader context.

I mean, one day I might hear some Tannoys that I can live with. :lol:

btw, just noticed this, Chris .... "I'm OneOfTheSevenModsWhoToldMarcoNotToLiftHarrysBan." :eyebrows:

The Grand Wazoo

26-04-2013, 07:26

btw, just noticed this, Chris .... "I'm OneOfTheSevenModsWhoToldMarcoNotToLiftHarrysBan." :eyebrows:

Ha, yes it's been there a while now - I thought that this true and honest statement was appropriate in order to offer some balance to the allegations made against me by some fine and upstanding citizens including, it should be observed, notable members of the legal profession. For more information on this matter, please refer to my forum title.

jandl100

29-04-2013, 08:05

Aha - a useful 'tweak'.

The guys at Tisbury have seen this thread and I have just received this Top Tip from them ---
"A little note on something you said in the AoS thread… due to the serial construction of the attenuator, turning it all the way to max and leaving it playing (power amps off, obviously!) will 'burn' in all the resistors at once. Interestingly, we've had quite a few people reporting burn in, though it's a complete mystery as to how or why it happens!"

I'm still using and loving this passive pre. :thumbsup:

NRG

29-04-2013, 08:21

Sounds like a series connected stepped attenuator. Most 'audiophile' :rolleyes: ones are ladder types, pros and cons to both...

http://www.goldpt.com/attenuator_types.html

jandl100

29-04-2013, 08:24

Yes, I was interested to read that it uses a serial connected stepped attenuator.

I am still jaw-droppingly astonished by the transparency of this little pre - It just goes to show that the conventional 'audiophile wisdom' ain't all it's cracked up to be! ;)

Tarzan

29-04-2013, 14:23

" Walk-in-able", erm l would patent that Jerry quick.

jandl100

29-04-2013, 17:46

Ah, that's proper reviewer-speak, that is! :lol:

Pieoftheday

13-05-2013, 15:48

hi jerry, could i use a passive preamp with a bushmaster dac? soz if thats a daft question :scratch:

jandl100

13-05-2013, 16:09

hi jerry, could i use a passive preamp with a bushmaster dac? soz if thats a daft question :scratch:

Hi James

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that idea.

The success will depend on the overall gain of the rest of your system. All a passive pre can do is attenuate the signal, so if you need more gain, then your system will not go loud enough.

Pieoftheday

13-05-2013, 16:35

Thanks for that, I may well give it a go:)

jandl100

13-05-2013, 16:40

Go for it! - I'm still loving mine - I know it seems stupid - I've got £20k+ rrp speakers and a £130 pre-amp. :doh: But it is entirely capable of sounding to that level of quality. :)

realysm42

13-05-2013, 17:06

Hi James

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that idea.

The success will depend on the overall gain of the rest of your system. All a passive pre can do is attenuate the signal, so if you need more gain, then your system will not go loud enough.

Interesting, so if I've got to lively a volume control a passive could work well for me?

Haselsh1

14-05-2013, 16:21

hi jerry, could i use a passive preamp with a bushmaster dac? soz if thats a daft question :scratch:

I guess if your Bushmaster puts out around 2V and your poweramp only needs around 1.2V then you are going to be just fine. If your poweramp needs more than 2V you are proverbially stuffed. I personally think you'd be fine.

Pieoftheday

14-05-2013, 16:42

the bushmaster does, i think put out 2v and my marantz pm8003 needs 1.6v according to the manual so post holiday i may take the plunge.:cool:

jandl100

27-05-2013, 09:22

the bushmaster does, i think put out 2v and my marantz pm8003 needs 1.6v according to the manual so post holiday i may take the plunge.:cool:

Got one yet? - if so, any thoughts on it? :)

Pieoftheday

27-05-2013, 10:40

it'll have to wait im afraid, need beer money for my hols;)

wee tee cee

05-06-2013, 15:33

E Mailed Tisbury with my system requirements.....one t amp-temple audio mono blocks based set up with Spendor sp1s and the other valve kel84 mono blocks driving Quad 63s...I don't know what the amp specs are but my current pre is a MF M1HPA active that functions as a single line pre. I only require one input for my MF M1 DAC.I would love to try one in my set up that would allow me to switch outputs to the respective systems without swapping phono leads.

wee tee cee

06-06-2013, 16:43

Just ordered the pre from Tisbury....I asked for one input and two variable outputs and one line output so that I can utilise my headphone amp. Look forward to hearing a passive pre and what it does to my two set ups.

wee tee cee

11-06-2013, 09:44

Just received the pre amp this morning, surprised at just how small it is. It is beautifully built with a lovely positive action to the input selector and the volume knob.

Initially I tried it with my temple audio mono blocks and Spendor sp1s, I connected the amp to the higher output phonos on the back of the temples and run it on the blue power output( for temple users) volume at twelve o clock on the pre was just about right, my initial impression was surprise at just how much my active pre had been influencing the sound, its far more transparent and natural sounding having really opened up the soudstage and separating out backing vocals from the main artist, bass is far less coloured and more honest not at all lacking as I had feared.

Next up a brief check that the head phone amp was getting fed from the fixed output....as far as I can tell the pre is invisible in the chain not adding or subtracting anything.

As I am typing I am listening to my valve mono blocks and quad 63s, my active pre was outputting too much for this set up only letting me get to about 10 o clock on the volume before things started distorting, I wasn't sure if it was the statics or valves clipping. My main concern for this set up was that the tubes would not have enough grunt to drive the statics without a active to help them along----it was unfounded.
at just over 12 o clock on the volume the level is just about perfect. It is producing a very unforced sound now, the best I have heard from this combo so far.

I am delighted with the sound my set up is making, the unique spec I ordered cost me an additional £10, Wes at Tisbury audio kept me fully updated with the progress and shipping. One very happy customer.

Having trusted hi fi pig reviews in the past with recommendations I can honestly endorse this wee pre amp( in my set up with my ears in my room).

Should be another Scottish get together in the near future will let the troops cast judgement for themselves.

jandl100

11-06-2013, 10:04

Yay. I'm glad you like it, too, Tony.
(Big sigh of relief emanates from Jerry Towers!)

T'is a lovely bit of kit and, as you say, very transparent indeed. :)

wee tee cee

11-06-2013, 10:20

Delighted Jerry, I was worried it would be system dependent and maybe needed beefy amps behind it to work, but both my set ups are really singing. Thanks for the recommendation.

Tarzan

11-06-2013, 10:59

Yay. I'm glad you like it, too, Tony.
(Big sigh of relief emanates from Jerry Towers!)

T'is a lovely bit of kit and, as you say, very transparent indeed. :)

A full and musical sound Jerry?- We like transparent.

jandl100

11-06-2013, 11:14

A full and musical sound Jerry?- We like transparent.

Well, as Tony wee tee cee said ...

....as far as I can tell the pre is invisible in the chain not adding or subtracting anything.

I tend to agree with that. Often claimed - seldom achieved, ime. It really is a bit startling.
Of course, your system's current enjoyable sound might depend on the colourations coming from your pre. ;)

But if you want genuinely transparent and high rez sound, I rate this little pre very highly.
... you do need a high input impedance in your power amp if treble rolloff is to be avoided, though, as with all resistive passives.

User211

11-06-2013, 21:33

Reffc

12-06-2013, 08:55

Nice post. A really good description of the virtues of passives. Once you get to grips with one (providing they work realistically with your kit) it is very hard to listen to an active SS or valve preamp without thinking it "is doing something". Of course if you like what the active is doing then that is fine, but the Tisbury is a great way of exploring passives for very little money.

My Air Tight passive is my reference preamp and seems to let the power amps just do their thang in a way no active I've tried seems to. That said, I'm really enjoying an active valve pre at the mo too... but I know full well it is a "colouration device".

two good posts! Good post from Wee tee cee and a good response from Justin.

It stands to reason that if your system can drive a passive (depends on source output impedance and power amp input impedance) and the source voltages are high enough (which in digital these days they almost certainly will be) then there's little to touch a passive as its the "straight bit of wire" between components. Actives provide a buffer between source and power amps as they have to ensure high input impedance yet low output impedance. When gain is thrown into the picture, its not hard to start seeing that colourations and signal losses occur. A good pre is the heart of any system I think, along with the speakers. The beauty about passives such as the Tisbury are that into a well matched system, they're capable of fidelity that many actives can't hope for.

realysm42

12-06-2013, 10:46

And yet actives are still such a popular choice.

I'm going to explore this route myself, once funds are permitting.

jandl100

13-06-2013, 06:05

Well, actives are a safer bet when it comes to system matching - both input/output impedance issues and overall system gain.
But if the synergy is there the overall performance of a passive can be a bit of an eye opener.

It's worth bearing in mind that all passive preamps are not born equal in terms of sound quality. A lot depends on the quality of the volume control. It seems to me that the Tisbury is a good'un for not much £moolah.

I'll be a-visiting with Justin User211 this weekend, and I may just take the Tisbury along to see how it compares with his Air Tight passive.

Marco

13-06-2013, 11:12

That said, I'm really enjoying an active valve pre at the mo too... but I know full well it is a "colouration device".

Nice one, and sometimes that's true, but don't be fooled into thinking that they all are (and the same also applies to valve power amps)... ;)

If you can exploit the benefits properly in your system, the best valve preamps simply act as open windows onto the musical programme and give real 'balls' and openness to the sonic presentation, not to mention musical insight, that no passive pre I've heard *so far* (and I've heard a few, although not the Tisbury) can match.

Marco.

wee tee cee

13-06-2013, 12:17

Marco,
It would be very interesting to get your evaluation of the wee Tisbury in your resolved set up...they do a 30 day return policy.....go on, you know you want to!!!!!

User211

13-06-2013, 19:17

Nice one, and sometimes that's true, but don't be fooled into thinking that they all are (and the same also applies to valve power amps)... ;)

If you can exploit the benefits properly in your system, the best valve preamps simply act as open windows onto the musical programme and give real 'balls' and openness to the sonic presentation, not to mention musical insight, that no passive pre I've heard *so far* (and I've heard a few, although not the Tisbury) can match.

Marco.

I agree with Paul's explanation.

Anyway, Marco, I had suspected it but now I know. This sytem was yours:

odlrzwQekoM

Jerry probably remembers me saying I thought that was one of the best at Scalford 2011. The 66s were truly excellent and love the Tube Distinctions amp. I'd listen to those 66s over any commercial Tannoys I've heard TBH. Loved 'em.

Hey... and it is a pimped Techie playing...:)

User211

13-06-2013, 19:29

It's worth bearing in mind that all passive preamps are not born equal in terms of sound quality. A lot depends on the quality of the volume control. It seems to me that the Tisbury is a good'un for not much £moolah.

I'll be a-visiting with Justin User211 this weekend, and I may just take the Tisbury along to see how it compares with his Air Tight passive.

Hm Battle of the Potentiometers:D

Actually I had hoped the new Emission Labs 274Bs would turn up for the session. They've been posted but unless they show tomoz...:(

There's a chance Nick might show up too Jerry. Might have space if an AoS member wants to hear some refurbished Apogees... only space for one though.

Marco

14-06-2013, 06:56

Anyway, Marco, I had suspected it but now I know. This sytem was yours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odlrzwQekoM

Jerry probably remembers me saying I thought that was one of the best at Scalford 2011. The 66s were truly excellent and love the Tube Distinctions amp. I'd listen to those 66s over any commercial Tannoys I've heard TBH. Loved 'em.

Hey... and it is a pimped Techie playing...

Hi Justin,

Glad you liked it. It was the AoS system for that year (although most of the kit was mine). We got a lot of positive feedback from people after we did that show, so the effort was worth it. Trust me, we were at it for hours on the Saturday night (and into Sunday morning), tuning and adjusting the sound to get it right and overcome, as best as possible, the shocking room acoustics! :)

Yeah the pimped Techy was doing its stuff, going through the phono stage of my "colouration device", lol... The T/T sounded good then, but has moved into another sonic league entirely since! Maybe still not as good as a Gyrodec, though... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

Marco

14-06-2013, 07:03

Marco,
It would be very interesting to get your evaluation of the wee Tisbury in your resolved set up...they do a 30 day return policy.....go on, you know you want to!!!!!

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the suggestion, mate, but I'm not in the habit of buying stuff just to test and then sending it back to get a refund, thus wasting the seller's time, even though they offer a 30-day money back guarantee. It's not how I operate, dude. I only buy something if I genuinely want it.

However, if someone who owns one, wants to send me a Tisbury, I'll gladly try it my system and have a listen, then report my findings here :)

Marco.

jandl100

14-06-2013, 07:56

..... However, if someone who owns one, wants to send me a Tisbury, I'll gladly try it my system and have a listen, then report my findings here :)

Marco.

Looks like I may be borrow-swapping an active pre with Justin this weekend - if the new one is listenable chez-J, mayhap I can pop the Tizzie in the post to Marco for a day or two's listening. :)

Marco

14-06-2013, 07:58

Sure, Jerry, by all means :)

Marco.

realysm42

14-06-2013, 08:12

This will be interesting :eyebrows:

wee tee cee

14-06-2013, 12:39

Hopefully you can get the chance to hear Jerries in your set up, if not I will post mine to you later in the year when I can get away on holiday.

realysm42

14-06-2013, 21:36

Anyone tried one of these:

http://www.luminousaudio.com/zcart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=34&zenid=5db2bok93uqaggjlu82m1h8ur5

Seems to have a lot of love on line.

User211

15-06-2013, 09:13

Looks like I may be borrow-swapping an active pre with Justin this weekend - if the new one is listenable chez-J, mayhap I can pop the Tizzie in the post to Marco for a day or two's listening. :)

The Marsh is good so you should get the Tisbury, Marco. We thought (Apogee man Jon Oakey) the sound in your room was best stood up at the back.

Good strong sound from those 66s - I figure I like them as much as I do due to the active/passive bass drivers. Lots of surface area to move air with.

The Emission Labs tubes showed up yesterday. Very nicely made things and sonically so far seem very good - even from new. I always seem to like Eastern European tubes.

jandl100

17-06-2013, 06:32

Looks like I may be borrow-swapping an active pre with Justin this weekend - if the new one is listenable chez-J, mayhap I can pop the Tizzie in the post to Marco for a day or two's listening. :)

Oops.

What can I say?

.... the Tisbury is goin' nowhere. :nono:

The Marsh is a nice active pre, but it lacks that last layer of rez and tonal purity of the Tisbury passive. I am still madly/deeply in lurv with the Tizzie and it would drive me crazy to do without it for a few days! Sorry Marco! Sorry folks - you will have to wait a while longer to get the judgement from On High! :eyebrows:

User211

17-06-2013, 18:58

Hm Jezzer's Tizzer is OK... but it had that passive problem of NOT having gain enough to drive the Apogees to decent levels yesterday when partnered with the Krell KAV250.

With some lowly recorded stuff I have the same problem with the Air Tight passive and the 211s.

The Tizzer has nice "knob feel" for the money... but the Marsh is IN ANOTHER LEAGUE for facilities/flexibility and having GAIN. Sometimes, gain is important:D And so is a remote control.

The Marsh is quite transparent but it ain't gonna beat a passive - not much will.

But is the Tizzer more enjoyable to listen to than a euphonic valve pre? The Tizzer lost 2 to 1 against on a Daft Punk track.

jandl100

17-06-2013, 19:16

I reckon your Aps are waaay less sensitive than the spec suggests!
Perhaps the mods / rebuild changed things in that regard?

But is the Tizzer more enjoyable to listen to than a euphonic valve pre? The Tizzer lost 2 to 1 against on a Daft Punk track.

I voted for the Tizzer. :D

... simply more rez all round, deeper bass and better bass control. Not an easier listen, but I reckon a more accurate and revealing one. Music isn't always "nice" you know. ;)

User211

17-06-2013, 19:44

No I reckon the Aps are to spec. Same very flat 4 Ohm load, same ribbon clearances, simplified x-over compared to the originals - still essentially the same but with much more foo. It is not as if the Krell didn't have the power - it did.

As I said the Air Tight seems to reach deeper too. No douting both are more accurate. But that Cayin is just so enjoyable I am loving it, fibber that it is. It is hanging around here for a long, long time:)

Anyway, Restek is next up:)

roob

28-07-2013, 16:03

I purchased one of these a couple of days ago it's a great little preamp for the money and punches well above it's weight.
With my digital source it is plenty loud enough for my room and it is a very revealing listen and slightly more transparent than my normal Paradox pre, bass is fine and tuneful.
The only downfall is when playing my LP12/Prefix/Troika where there is not really enough volume available due to the very low output of the Troika and the bass through this bit was not as well controlled as with my cdp/dac.
So I will be sending it back as I don't fancy swapping pre amps all the time but if anyone is looking for a very good pre for a digital only system then I recommend you give one a try.

jandl100

28-07-2013, 17:25

....t if anyone is looking for a very good pre for a digital only system then I recommend you give one a try.

Well, that's only because of the low output on your cartridge - my LP system works fine with a Tisbury - any passive pre is only good if there is sufficient overall system gain.

But I'm glad you liked it anyway! :)

roob

28-07-2013, 17:58

I did like it Jerry and I would say to potential buyers do not be put off by its low price, if the rest of your system is compatible give one a whirl.

wee tee cee

29-07-2013, 09:52

I have had mine for a couple of weeks, it noticeably improves with a few hours under its belt.......very good pre in my set up.

Macca

02-08-2013, 09:07

I've been meaning to try a passive pre for years - I borrowed the Tilbury off of Jerry JANDL (thanks Jerry) and have to say it is a bit of a revelation. You get to a point with your system where you are just trying to lift veils, most of them gossamer-thin. This is like lifting a pillowcase off the sound. I've been listening quite carefully to see if there is a lack of bass and drive which are the downsides of using a passive - maybe there is a tiny bit but the gains in every other area far outweigh it. Absolute clarity and sweeteness of sound, individual tracks in the mix are clearly defined and real texture to the instruments. That 'digital glare' that has bugged me as long as I have had a CD player is gone, plus some mush I didn't even realise was there until it disappeared. If you are using an all digital set up I would strongly urge trying a passive pre if you have not done so already.

wee tee cee

02-08-2013, 09:36

realysm42

02-08-2013, 09:47

So what about no pre, would that be better yet?

Is be really interested for someone to give it a go, especially in the digital realm.

This is what I'm doing but (and its a big but) I've got new speakers and and amp, so I can hardly be subjective; yes it sounds better than it ever has done, but is this due to the new gear, how much can be put forward to having no pre in the chain?

Flipping it on its head, how can adding more wires and boss be good for the sound?

Macca

02-08-2013, 09:52

A passive pre is just a potentiometer in a box so it is effectively the same as having no pre in the chain. You could plug a DAC or CD player with variable output straight into a power amp but the variable output on these things is just a pot anyway so I don't see there being much difference.

I do want to listen to my vinyl as well so that is a hurdle to be overcome somehow if I stick with the passive option.

realysm42

02-08-2013, 09:55

That's what I was thinking; I run my DAC straight into my power amp.

The only problem and genuine threat is that everything on my PC has separate volumes, which I initially forgot and nearly destroyed an old set of speakers :stalks:

Macca

02-08-2013, 10:11

That's what I was thinking; I run my DAC straight into my power amp.

:

Then you are already reaping the benefits that I have only just discovered :)

Richard Dunn on his site was talking recently about the difference between systems that produce musical instruments realistically and those that are effectively a refined P.A. That struck a chord with me as that is really what my system sounded like - a good, small scale P.A and it had occurred to me that was possibly the cause of the underlying dissatisfaction I have had for a long time. Trying this passive has opened my eyes a bit, I know he is a strong proponent of the passive pre approach, and it seems to me that he is onto something there. (Although I am sure he knew that already ;) ).

realysm42

02-08-2013, 10:16

I might not bother with the whole preamp thing in that case.

I'm glad you've found another, higher level of fidelity!

Keeping it simple really can reap benefits sometimes, that's one of my main reasons for going pure digital; do one thing as well as I can, instead of a tonnes of sources averagely.

Macca

02-08-2013, 10:27

I might not bother with the whole preamp thing in that case.

.

lol - there is a lot of bollocks talked on that site but there is the occasional gem of wisdom from the man himself when they do get around to discussing hi-fi :)

jandl100

02-08-2013, 10:35

A passive pre is just a potentiometer in a box so it is effectively the same as having no pre in the chain.

Umm, no, I don't think I agree with that.

There are pots and then there are pots. I've tried quite a few passive pre-amps in my time, and the Tizzie is one of the best. Some are pretty grotty, tbh, with at worst a murky uninvolving sound and I'd expect that sort of performance from a random pot stuck in a CD player.

Get a good passive pre, like the Tisbury. ;)

Macca

02-08-2013, 10:51

Don't get me wrong Jerry, obviously the quality of the pot used is going to make a difference. My point was there is no other gubbins involved to add noise or distortion, as a powered pre-amp might do.

Firebottle

02-08-2013, 11:14

Martin your PM is full :(

Macca

02-08-2013, 12:12

Now sorted. Don't know how that happens nobody ever PMs me :)

wee tee cee

02-08-2013, 13:20

theres a good video on youtube explaining the difference between digital and analogue volume control........using your pc volume removes bits( not too good methinks) am a renowned daftee watch the video it explains it properly.......i did without a pre driving amps with the computer as the volume....inserting the pre improved the sound (dont ask me why)....

realysm42

02-08-2013, 13:30

I don't think it's as simple as that Tony.

This is how I understand it works (and I'm happy to be corrected by someone that knows more than me):

It depends on the bit rate of what you're listening to and what resolution the volume control is (read: how many bits).

I mainly listen to redbook cd ripped as APE files (so, lossless, 16bit files).

I also don't use my pcs volume control, I use Jrivers internal control.

Jriver has a 64 bit volume control (Which is actually very good). It's also fully dithered @24 bits (this is the limit of my knowledge, perhaps someone else can jump in here). I think dithering helps to improve the quality of the digital volume.

In theory, because 16 is 1/4 of 64, I can listen at 25% volume before I I start losing bits (and therefore sound quality).

Because my amp is such a beast (500 wpc), my speakers are pretty sensitive (90db) and I have no attenuation, this low level listening does occur, especially at night, so perhaps a preamp would help me.

I've also been told that a good preamp can help inject dynamics etc into the music. Maybe it will, but I can't be sure until I've had a go with one.

Ali Tait

02-08-2013, 13:46

An active pre may well give better drive, due to giving better impedance matching between your components, but YMMV depending on your kit. A passive will not provide better impedance matching, unless there are buffers either side.

wee tee cee

02-08-2013, 15:57

the wee Tisbury doesn't add or take anything away......to my ears either on speakers or headphones its invisible just lets me adjust the volume (the headphones are via a line out not a variable-cant hear any difference with the pre between head amp or connected straight to the dac)
Ali, has forgotten more about hi fi than I will ever know....maybe better listening to him.

Ali Tait

02-08-2013, 16:16

A passive can be the simplest and possibly best solution, if there are no impedance or gain issues I think. Tempted to give one of these a go, but just bought what I'm hoping will be a very nice active jobbie, with from what I've read has a very good phono stage. Might tempt me to get that 401 down from on top of the wardrobe!

Tony, dunno about your last statement there, it's more the blind leading the blind. :scratch: :lol:

wee tee cee

02-08-2013, 16:37

Is there someone there.........who said that!!!!!!!!!

Ali Tait

02-08-2013, 16:49

Can you hear me motheeeer?

Stratmangler

02-08-2013, 18:03

the wee Tisbury doesn't add or take anything away......

I bought one and sent it back for a refund - it didn't work for me.
It seemed to be a nicely put together piece of kit too, but the passive thing didn't groove my truffles :eyebrows:

realysm42

02-08-2013, 18:38

I bought one and sent it back for a refund - it didn't work for me.
It seemed to be a nicely put together piece of kit too, but the passive thing didn't groove my truffles :eyebrows:

What didn't it do for you?

Ali Tait

02-08-2013, 18:59

I bought one and sent it back for a refund - it didn't work for me.
It seemed to be a nicely put together piece of kit too, but the passive thing didn't groove my truffles :eyebrows:

Aye, it's just yer truffles are a funny shape.. :eyebrows: :lol:

Stratmangler

02-08-2013, 19:05

What didn't it do for you?

My system sounded worse with it in circuit.
The issue is one of impedence matching.

Haselsh1

04-08-2013, 12:11

I bought one and sent it back for a refund - it didn't work for me.
It seemed to be a nicely put together piece of kit too, but the passive thing didn't groove my truffles :eyebrows:

I have had the same sort of experience with passives. They just don't do much of anything except completely deaden the sound. I much prefer actives that bring out the sparkle and life and energy in music.

Macca

04-08-2013, 12:56

I have had the same sort of experience with passives. They just don't do much of anything except completely deaden the sound. I much prefer actives that bring out the sparkle and life and energy in music.

Funny you should say that Shaun as sparkle life and energy are just what this particular passive has brought to my system. I guess the main factor is the matching to the power amp, and that's not going to work in every case.

jandl100

05-08-2013, 15:49

Funny you should say that Shaun as sparkle life and energy are just what this particular passive has brought to my system. I guess the main factor is the matching to the power amp, and that's not going to work in every case.

Yep - it's all down to technical matching - my system sparkles with life and energy with the Tisbury in circuit. :thumbsup:

realysm42

05-08-2013, 17:33

They said they can do a dual mono, single source, balanced in and out version for me, with black knobs :)

Case would be silver though, I'm getting good at spraying things anyway!

wee tee cee

09-08-2013, 17:07

martin.....did you order one? they only charged me a tenner to spec it for my needs......let us know how it goes,seems some systems really need the oomph an active pre provides.

Macca

10-08-2013, 08:48

After extensive listening over the past two weeks I have had to conclude that I am missing that little bit of bass when using the Tisbury. The quality and definition are excellent but with bass-heavy material there is something lacking. Club bass in aprticular has lost its 'growl', also I noticed on Live At The Sands that the grand piano lacked body and the double bass was slightly lighter than it should be. Very minor quibble and overall you would not say the system sounded bass-light BUT I am a perfectionist and I can't live with this long term. Dammiit! I am a bit pissed off really as otherwise this pre is giving me the best sound I have ever had from CD by a country mile.

It doesn't help that I have to use the speakers 6' out into the room as moving them back 3' or so I suspect would go some way to restoring that soupcon of missing low end. I am not willing to give up this gain so easily, I am wondering if a sub or some equalisation (analogue or digital) would resolve the problem. Any thoughts, anyone?

realysm42

18-10-2013, 15:49

Jerry, I noticed from your latest speaker cable review on hifipig that the tisburys no longer part of your system, did you have enough of it?

Tony, I've bought an MFA tvc pre, so am anxiously awaiting its arrival into my system.

wee tee cee

18-10-2013, 16:15

Martin,
Thanks for the update.....bit out of my budget but would be interested if you could post up your impressions-lovely looking bit of kit!

realysm42

18-10-2013, 16:19

Jons a great guy to deal with, he's got a version without the source selector, which is perfect for me as I'm purely digital, which helped get the costs down a bit.

Of course, it'd be my pleasure to write a review once I've had it delivered.

Martin,
Thanks for the update.....bit out of my budget but would be interested if you could post up your impressions-lovely looking bit of kit!

wee tee cee

18-10-2013, 16:39

look forward to reading it....thanks.

jandl100

18-10-2013, 17:08

Jerry, I noticed from your latest speaker cable review on hifipig that the tisburys no longer part of your system, did you have enough of it?

Well, I have enough of most things after a while - boxswapper! ;)

I just like to try different things, although in this instance I returned to my old Restek pre. It's a lovely thing. :)

The Tizzie still gets a very strong vote from me for great sound at a low price. Most pre-amps can't compete with it for detail and transparency, imho.

realysm42

18-10-2013, 18:11

Fair play. Is your current pre a keeper, or is nothing safe?

jandl100

18-10-2013, 21:17

My MBL speakers are for the long term (I say that with something of a heavy heart, superb though they are, as I did love my speaker boxswapping dearly) anything and everything else is in short- or medium-term rotation. :)

Richardl

26-10-2013, 07:38

I've got a Channel island PLC-1 mk.1 passive preamp. It's ideal for me, I tried for ages to find a passive preamp with a home theatre bypass.
This one's remote control as well, which is a bonus.
CI audio don't seem very well known in the UK, I had to import mine. Here's a link for the mk.2 version http://www.ciaudio.com/products/PLC1MKII

candg.wales

29-11-2013, 17:40

Hi guys

I just stumbled on this great thread

I wondered what the latest thoughts on the Tisbury passive is ?

I've just ordered one to try with my Quad 2/40 valve , and although sceptical I hope I'm pleasantly surprised. I've been buying AV boxes stuffed full of superfluous electronics for years. The philosophy of a straight line approach to the pre amp appeals to me. I'm advised by Tisbury that the unit will suit the input level and impedance of the Quads.

Any thoughts guys ?

Best wishes

Graham

synsei

29-11-2013, 23:32

I have a Tizzie on loan from Jerry (jandl100) just now. I run a Classé Audio DR5 which is presently driving a Quad 306 and B&W DM2 speakers and it is a stunningly capable pre-amp. It is also humongous and built like a tank. You could fit 15+ Tizzies within the casework of a DR5 and yet with it in circuit I have never heard my system sound so transparent, it is a wonderful little marvel in my eyes (or should that be ears) :D

wee tee cee

02-12-2013, 18:40

aye a wee cracker for a very affordable outlay....hidden hi fi jem.

jandl100

24-01-2014, 10:30

My 'demo unit' Tisbury pre is free again - anyone want to try it? :)

hifinutt

25-01-2014, 17:25

pm sent

jandl100

26-01-2014, 08:48

Hi Phil - sorry - someone beat you to it.
Join the queue - you can be next. :)

mido

31-01-2014, 23:24

Excellent little preamp.

Totally agree, plenty of detail and transparency and very musical.

Amazing value for money.

Thanks for the loan Jerry :thumbsup:

synsei

01-02-2014, 09:20

I enjoyed my time with the Tizzie (thanks Jerry ;)) but I have now moved on to something rather special which is even more of a bargain. One slight criticism I have of the Tisbury is that it is so small and light, if you happen to use thick, less pliable IC's there is a tendency for the tail to wag the dog...

jandl100

01-02-2014, 10:03

vinylspinner

01-02-2014, 10:28

Plugging her in this morning, yes, agree with Dave, she is a lot smaller than expected.

Thanks for the loan Jerry.

Nigel

synsei

01-02-2014, 16:42

Yep, not all passive pre's are born equal by any means.

I really like the Tiz; yes, you can get a bit more transparency and rez (although the Tizzie is very good) but there's a natural musical flow and feeling of communication and involvement to it that most others seem to miss out on.
I'll get mine back one of these days, it'll be nice to try it again! :)

-- if you're ever away for a few days, Dave (synsei), I wouldn't mind a go with your BTE as well! ;)

Don't get me wrong Jerry I rate the Tizzie's performance very highly and besides, if it hadn't been for your generosity in lending it to me I might not have discovered just how well the 306 works with a passive pre and for that I am in your debt :youtheman: Anyone who owns a Quad 306, 606 or any of the later power amps in this range owes it to themselves to audition a passive pre in their system, you won't regret it ;)

I would be delighted to lend you the BTE Jerry however the likelihood of me being away from home for any length of time in the near to mid future is very slim indeed and the BTE is the only pre-amp I own just now, however if you have a small, spare pre-amp sulking in a far flung corner that you can do without for the duration then I'd be more than happy to do an exchange so you can trial it ;)

Roy S

01-02-2014, 16:48

Works very well with a 405-2 as well.

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/drsys2_zps1d2445db.jpg

synsei

01-02-2014, 16:56

Works very well with a 405-2 as well.

http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/drsys2_zps1d2445db.jpg

Excellent Roy. To solve the 'tail wagging the dog' problem I ended up sticking it to a rack shelf with double-sided tape... :lol:

User211

01-02-2014, 17:28

It is a nice little unit. They really should do an R/C version, in a bigger box, with maybe more input options. It'd sell, I reckon. Those features are worth paying for.

jandl100

05-02-2014, 11:25

I would be delighted to lend you the BTE Jerry however the likelihood of me being away from home for any length of time in the near to mid future is very slim indeed and the BTE is the only pre-amp I own just now, however if you have a small, spare pre-amp sulking in a far flung corner that you can do without for the duration then I'd be more than happy to do an exchange so you can trial it ;)

Thanks for that, Dave. :thumbsup:

Maybe I'll have the Tizzie sent back to you for a few days! :)

vinylspinner

05-02-2014, 23:12

Wow,

This little babe sounds very good, I want one.

more to follow.

Nigel

jandl100

15-02-2014, 11:26

Wow,

This little babe sounds very good, I want one.

more to follow.

Nigel

Nigel will soon be letting the 'loaner' go - anyone else here fancy a try with it? :)

orbscure

02-09-2014, 09:03

Is a loan of this little unit still available Jerry, I'd love to give it a go with my 306 :)

jandl100

02-09-2014, 09:50

Is a loan of this little unit still available Jerry, I'd love to give it a go with my 306 :)

Too late, Pete - I've just sold it! http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?34045-FS-Tisbury-passive-pre-amp

orbscure

02-09-2014, 09:54

I thought it might be the same unit Jerry... thanks for the swift response nonetheless :)

hifinutt

05-09-2014, 02:50

very nicely made and incredibly small . well worth trying

Ninanina

05-09-2014, 21:15

Jerry if it was soo good what have you replaced it with ? I have a friend who is looking for a passive pre and would be interested :)

struth

05-09-2014, 21:36

Ive got one too, but not actually tried it yet. Bought it on a whim tbh, but may use it as a rather nice switch box between my 2 turntables when the 160 is ready. A lovely little unit, although may be overkill as a switchbox:eyebrows:

jandl100

06-09-2014, 06:08

Jerry if it was soo good what have you replaced it with ? I have a friend who is looking for a passive pre and would be interested :)

Things come and go at Jerry Towers. ;) I just like to try different things.

Currently, I have 2 integrated amps (1 ss, 1 valve - see my siggie below) and another integrated (Virtue Audio class D) is about to arrive. And I have a fab active pre (a Restek) that does some dynamic and other stuff that passives don't while achieving very high levels of clarity for when the next power amp is selected.

But yep, the little Tiz is a great sounding unit, imo. It doesn't quite have the sheer transparency of a good stepped attenuator passive, but it also lacks the tonal starkness that can appear in some systems with passive preamps. I compared it directly with a stepped Glasshouse No. 1 passive pre, and I actually preferred the Tizzie. It was just nicer to listen to.
But I hadn't used it for a while and my kind and generous offer of loaning it out hadn't been taken up since the beginning of the year, so a little bit of shelf space has now been cleared. :)

Tarzan

06-09-2014, 10:48

Has the Sensation arrived yet Jerry?:)

Marco

03-07-2015, 17:56

Just won a Tissy on ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tisbury-Audio-Passive-Preamp-/171838299625?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=ARvcCWcKFTwKzKSdAtDI0Lvdb3E%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I'm going to use it as part of a 'summer system' to reduce the heat from valves in my set-up, during this really hot spell of weather we're having. It'll be interesting to hear how it performs! :)

Marco.

struth

03-07-2015, 17:58

Good little boxes those

Marco

03-07-2015, 18:00

Hopefully, dude! :cool:

Marco.

User211

03-07-2015, 18:23

Yeah they are OK. Had Jerry's in my system and heard it in is.

Alright provided you don't need any active gain obviously. In which case they are NOT OK.

Marco

03-07-2015, 18:29

I think I'll be all right on the gain score.

It's mainly for piping some choons out into the garden (via the RPi and Copper amp) and into some Celestion Ditton 15XRs, while we're entertaining friends... The music room where all the kit is, with the current weather, gets like a bloody oven, what with both the Croft and Copper amp using loads of valves.

The Tissy will help sort that out and hopefully provide acceptable sound quality in that application :)

Marco.

DSJR

03-07-2015, 18:32

I don't think you'll find it 'sounds' at all Marco, although I would recommend 'personally' that you keep the interconnects within a couple of metres.

I use a little home made three-input/one output passive preamp and it's incredibly good with amps that I thought should have an active preamp stage driving them. So much so that the HH MOS-FET amp I was given with the LS5/9's has taken on a whole extra layer of delicacy and increased 'emotional connection' that it lacked before with the old AVI preamp driving it (in fairness to the AVI, it prefers several metres of mic cable to remote amps...).

I mention my home-made jobbie because I recently replaced the perfectly worthy 47k pots I was using with the same ones Tisbury use, but in 50k (I had to go on eBay US to find them, but the seller was only too happy to send me a pair to the UK for well under £20). I've since discovered that 10k is fine as well, by the way. No sonic difference between the Chinese attenuators and the film-pots I was using before, but I like the tracking on the first two notches of the attenuators ;)

Something else, if I may be so bold ('course I am). So many active preamps over the years have been a real bane in the life of 'High Fidelity Audio' in my opinion and experience, the colourations and/or veiling of detail they add to the recipe being quite severe in some revered US models I remember. As far as I can see, a passive preamp, as long as the matching isn't severe, shouldn't add anything at all and definitely shouldn't take anything away - Like others here and elsewhere, it comes as a bit of a shock to start with, but after a while to acclimatise, I'm going to find it very hard to go back to an active preamp (I've a Krell KSA50S coming and in a way, haven't a bleedin' clue what to drive it with, status wise - cough!)

User211

03-07-2015, 18:33

I've got the same problem with 30 odd valves running last year - when it was really hot I was screwed...:)

Somehow last night's session was OK but about to start tonight's.

I think my Air Tight passive is better (scored on the Gon years ago and it saw years of use in my system) but it isn't much better and the cost difference is massive.

Marco

03-07-2015, 21:13

Hi Dave,

I don't think you'll find it 'sounds' at all Marco, although I would recommend 'personally' that you keep the interconnects within a couple of metres.

All my interconnects are 0.5m (I've always believed in keeping cables are short as possible), so no issues there :)

The Tissy is really just a bit of fun, and I'm sure will fulfil its intended role admirably.

Marco.

hifinutt

03-07-2015, 21:44

Well I was just going to revive this thread but you beat me too it. I had one before with an alps pot and we did not like it much but right now I am listening to a pretty holographic 3d and very very enjoyable stepped attentuator version which has been in the system for several weeks now
Full on bass and using 2 metre cables from rfc with no problems . it seems to suit the msb power amp rather well.of course it does not have quite the texture and realism of some valve amps but it punches well well above its price
Highly recommended if you are on a budget as I am currently

Marco

03-07-2015, 21:55

Nice one, Phil. It was the stepped attenuator bit that sold it to me, so pleased to know that makes a difference :)

Marco.

hifinutt

03-07-2015, 22:01

Yes not sure why but there is a very big difference . it might possibly be because I bought the alps one new and this stepped one was well run in and is pretty full bloodied . the bass is enough to keep my Mrs awake currently at 11pm!!!!

Marco

03-07-2015, 22:44

Cool. Like for like, I've always found steppers more accurate than pots - that's why I think they sound better :)

Marco.

walpurgis

03-07-2015, 23:06

I've used both and prefer stepped attenuators, but a TVC unit moves things forward vastly!

Like this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raphaelite-PRE-PM2-1-Pre-AMP-Audio-hifi-Passive-Magnetic-Preamplifier-brand-new-/261603818894?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3ce8cd7d8e

struth

03-07-2015, 23:12

walpurgis

03-07-2015, 23:18

using a tvc myself now and its very good... although I think one of the stepped vc's is faulty. May soon have to be replaced; might be a time to change it to a single double throw step vc rather than the current 2 separates.

They're not VCs, just rotary switches selecting tap positions on the transformers. You'll have to count the switching contacts and match them to a dual rotating switch. You could then use the spare control hole in the front panel for a rotary input selector dual switch. Probably two or three way depending on how much room for extra sockets you'd have on the back.

If yours is playing up try a bit of switch cleaner.

struth

03-07-2015, 23:24

yep, thats what i meant. dunno where you'd get good ones mind but if I do it it will likely not be me lol. I would need a soldering bolt better than my gas job. last one went o/s. probably best to get Ali or Alan to do it.... one of the channels went semi o/s today for a while. I actually thought one of my speakers had gone ......it was odd!! maybe a good clean may sort it if it happens again.

walpurgis

03-07-2015, 23:35

maybe a good clean may sort it if it happens again.

It's the first thing to try. I use this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Switch-Cleaner-Contact-cleaner-and-Lubricant-Servisol-Super-10-200ml-/281735859620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4198c40da4

Avoid the solvent types. They can dissolve plastic parts.

Also (as I'm sure you know), check soldered joints. Which could be a pain. As there are quite a few inside.

wee tee cee

06-07-2015, 15:56

plumbed my tissie back in yesterday-moving back from active to passive.....sounds lovely and transparent,bass quality is very nice. Great piece of kit for reasonable money.

The stepped attenuator does seem to work really well.

jandl100

06-07-2015, 16:35

There's a new version of the Tisbury passive pre out.
Knowing me to be a fan of the original, Wes at Tisbury sent me one to try out, I only sent it back to him today. :)

According to Wes ... "the new model is circuit board based rather than wired point to point, which does allow better control of signal paths and returns. That certainly won’t hurt the sound quality. Apart from that it’s mostly the same components."

I didn't have the original passive to hand, but based on audio memory the new one is a bit more transparent.

I disagree with Dave DSJR (a not unusual occurrence :eyebrows:), I find passive preamps sound different from each other.

I owned both the original Tissie and a Glasshouse Number 1 passive pre at the same time, the Glasshouse having a full-on stepped attenuator unlike the Tis which has a SMD stepped attenuator where consecutive resistors are summed, I think . I preferred the Tis and sold the Glasshouse - the Glassy one was a bit stark and unforgiving even for my preferences which tend to the forward / lively side.
The old Tis had just a touch of Golden Glow about it that made it a quite distinctive sound that I enjoyed a lot.
The new version has a touch more clarity and not as much of a Golden Glow, but it still has that characteristic to an extent.

Check out the Tisbury website -- http://www.tisburyaudio.co.uk/mini-passive-preamplifier

Copy and pasted from the site, the changes in the new version are ...

New Look, More Inputs and Outputs
Our second generation preamp now has 3 inputs, 2 configurable outputs and a laser engraved walnut + aluminium enclosure. The chassis is longer, more substantial and remains stable with heavy cables.

Selectable Fixed Attenuation
A new feature is the selectable attenuation, which allows you to reduce the signal by a fixed -10 dB or -20 dB. If your system has too much gain and you can't turn the volume dial past 12 o'clock without hearing damage, this setting will help.

Configurable Outputs
Output 1 is the primary output and its level is set by the volume control. Output 2 can be configured (by switches on the base) as either an additional primary output, or as a 'loop' out, to bypass the volume control and (you guessed it) loop out to another device.
____

Turn the wee beastie upsidedown and this surprising sight confronts you ....

http://www.tisburyaudio.co.uk/images/products/mini-passive-preamp-4.jpg

Dip switches to adjust the gain and configure the 2nd output socket pair. Cool - reminds me of the Trichord Dino phonostage which uses the same type of idea.

The front fascia looks neater too ...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-q6N21zKJ0Kw/VYArXZMzdsI/AAAAAAAAESE/K94nCk9xk8o/s1600/mini-passive-preamp-2.jpg

And to complete the 3D survey, here's the rear ...

http://www.tisburyaudio.co.uk/images/products/mini-passive-preamp-3.jpg

Price is still nicely low - at £129 you can't really argue, I don't think.

An excellent passive pre, imho. :thumbsup:

Marco

06-07-2015, 20:42

Hi Jerry,

Excellent pics and info mate - thanks for sharing :)

Just to pick up on this:

According to Wes ... "the new model is circuit board based rather than wired point to point, which does allow better control of signal paths and returns. That certainly won’t hurt the sound quality. Apart from that it’s mostly the same components."

I didn't have the original passive to hand, but based on audio memory the new one is a bit more transparent.

I can't dispute the fact that you found it more transparent, or that Wes considers the introduction of a PCB an improvement, but it's contrary to my own experience (with valve amps), where hard-wired, point to point, is best.

Indeed that (along with the stepped attenuator) is what sold me the idea of obtaining a Tissy! It should be here tomorrow, so will report my findings accordingly :cool:

Marco.

Andrei

06-07-2015, 21:29

It's the first thing to try. I use this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Switch-Cleaner-Contact-cleaner-and-Lubricant-Servisol-Super-10-200ml-/281735859620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4198c40da4

Their site says: "We must be notified of any fault within 7 days of receipt of the goods. If the customer rejects the faulty goods within 7 days then a full refund will be given, providing the goods are returned complete, in all original packaging and in a re-sellable condition. "

So the faulty good must be in a re-sellable condition!

jandl100

06-07-2015, 21:37

I can't dispute the fact that you found it more transparent, or that Wes considers the introduction of a PCB an improvement, but it's contrary to my own experience (with valve amps), where hard-wired, point to point, is best.

Yep, I hear what you say, Marco! - I was a bit surprised myself.

But I have to confess that since learning that probably my favourite "cone & dome in a box" loudspeaker, Leema Xaviers, have PCB based crossovers I've come to the conclusion that there are far more important aspects in a design! :)

User211

06-07-2015, 21:38

Re-sellable "faultyness"? LOL.

I'm with Marco I like hardwired stuff. Whether it really is logical is another question. It may well be that I like the thought of something being handmade rather than stamped out, but my power amps, speaker crossovers and quite a bit of my DAC are done this way, and they all sound excellent to me.

Crosstalk between wires can and does happen though. Decent PCB layouts do prevent it.

Marco

06-07-2015, 23:02

Yep, I hear what you say, Marco! - I was a bit surprised myself.

But I have to confess that since learning that probably my favourite "cone & dome in a box" loudspeaker, Leema Xaviers, have PCB based crossovers I've come to the conclusion that there are far more important aspects in a design! :)

Sure, in terms of the last bit, I'd agree. With something such as loudspeakers, you're listening to the cumulative effect of the SUM of the many parts used, and not to that of any individual parts (such as PCBs in crossovers). However, in something as basic and minimal as a passive preamp, the inclusion or lack thereof of a PCB, is liable to be more sonically significant.

Up until now, to my ears, PCBs, used in amps, have imposed a 'sonic signature' that I would consider as detrimental, compared with point-to-point wiring done well, which of course sometimes it isn't - and of course there are PCBs and PCBs. However, there's a valid reason why, for example, Glenn Croft won't entertain building his valve preamps any way other than hard-wired, and I feel that is also relevant in the case of the Tissy.

Anyway, that aside, I'm sure that both the old and new versions of the latter are excellent and offer superb SPPV, and so I'm very much looking forward to receiving mine and putting it through its paces! :cool:

Marco.

mikmas

07-07-2015, 00:32

I like the idea of the attenuators having had to resort to something similar when using my DIY passive. Can also understand that adding this feature kind of necessitates using a PCB (no fun hardwiring DIP switches...)

Was very tempted by their previous incarnation but this is calling to me like a siren onto the rocks ... at that price it's irresistible

jandl100

07-07-2015, 05:53

Many situations where gain is a problem with a passive, as Justin says, are going to be the other way around with too little overall system gain to reach desired sound levels. But with the plethora of horn speakers, for example, at 100dB/W+ sensitivity there could well be too much gain.
Also power amps with high input sensitivity - the excellent Leak Stereo 20 comes to mind, as well as other vintage amps -- when I had a Stereo 20 I always had to use those "attenuator in an RCA plug" doodads to keep the volume control setting sensible - the new Tisbury's -10dB or -20dB setting would sort that issue nicely.

jandl100

07-07-2015, 10:03

Price is still nicely low - at £115 you can't really argue, I don't think.

An excellent passive pre, imho. :thumbsup:

Oops, I got the price wrong. :doh:

Wes has just emailed me saying that it's £129.

I've corrected the original post.

Still cracking value, though. ;)

User211

07-07-2015, 19:30

I'm waiting for a Penny & Giles plastic pot version. I'd buy it at quite a big premium, because I have it in my head they sound fab having had a passive containing them in the past.

I suspect an indefinite wait:D

jandl100

07-07-2015, 19:43

Have you asked Wes @Tisbury about it?

User211

07-07-2015, 21:53

No.

I haven't checked recently but the last time I did I didn't see any R/C versions. They are super smooth, and very silent in operation and should stay that way. They also aren't cheap. Two discounted monos like these wouldn't be too bad though, in an appropriate rating for your kit. I recommend you try them Jerry, FWIW.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Penny-Giles-RF-15-Rotary-Fader-Highest-End-10K-Audio-Potentiometer-RRP-550-/141699585895?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20fdf41767

A stereo version with an R/C geared motor driving it would work but that really would require more than Tisbury would accommodate without going to the drawing board. Gotta have R/C, me.

User211

07-07-2015, 21:58

Seller reckons £550 RRP for these. DIYers not a bad deal here?

Barry

08-07-2015, 00:39

Penny and Giles make some superb pots - probably the best there are. They are used in my Mark Levinson preamps.

Light Dependant Resistor

08-07-2015, 05:02

Penny and Giles make some superb pots - probably the best there are. They are used in my Mark Levinson preamps.

And would be much better to progress audio appreciation if it was recognized pots are not superb passing audio signals, always degrading audio quality. They are though quite useful passing DC current to a much better device.
15005

Cheers / Chris

Marco

08-07-2015, 07:27

Marco

08-07-2015, 15:13

Well, the Tissy has arrived.... Jeez, this little thing has no Goddamn right to sound so good!! :eek: :eek:

Anyone want to buy a Croft? Lol... Ok, it's not quite *that* good, but for £85, second-hand? Fooking ridiculously good is what it is..........! More later (after much music listening) :)

Marco.

struth

08-07-2015, 15:19

Yup they do sound good although not tried the new one. mind you they only sound as good as what youve got it attached to;)

Macca

08-07-2015, 15:53

I thought it lacked impact in my system. Try playing something where the snare really hits you between the eyes and see if it softens that effect any.

Marco

08-07-2015, 16:12

No lack of impact here, dude, trust me - not in the slightest. The Copper amp is very sensitive (as are the Tannoys), and I'm using short, 0.5m (Klotz) interconnects.

It's as slammy as a very slammy thing! And oh so fast and dynamic, wide-open and transparent, not to mention effortlessly musical sounding. If I didn't have the Croft (and also needed its in-built phono stage), I could quite happily live with the Tissy as my main 'line controller' - yup, it's that good [no matter whether the Sony CDP is used or the RPi]! :cool:

Mind you, there's something a bit bonkers [IMO, in a good way] about using an £85 passive preamp with a £5k valve amp... :eyebrows:

Marco.

lurcher

08-07-2015, 17:08

Mind you, there's something a bit bonkers [IMO, in a good way] about using an £85 passive preamp with a £5k valve amp... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Not sure why, its a pot in a box, if the box didnt exist, and the pot was nn the front of your amp, you would have a £5k valve amp with a volume control, if you also had a input selector, your would have a £5k integrated amp. All makes sense. You just moved the pot and input selector to a different box. If you remember Ian spending months finding a preamp, he ended up with that S&B transformer in a box I built for him, thats no difference other than its a transformer version of the same thing, so it can drive longer lines and break noisy grounds. You dont need gain with line inputs and your Cu amp, so it doesn't surprise me at all a good passive works well for you.

jandl100

08-07-2015, 17:44

I tol' youse it was a goodun, Marco. ;)

Not all passive preamps are born equal by any means, ime.
In my view, the Tizzie beats any Audio Synthesis I've heard in terms of liveliness and dynamics (and I've heard and owned a good few), TVC passives seem overly warm and laidback in comparison, it knocks the likes of the Creek passive into the long grass, and while it is marginally less transparent than the likes of the Glasshouse #1 and the Eva2 LDR I prefer to listen to the Tiz.

Marco

08-07-2015, 17:46

Fair points, Nick - and it does sound rather good :)

Don't get me wrong, the Croft still has the edge, but that's the thing: the Tissy isn't being disgraced despite the Croft costing MANY times more! There's also a certain type of sound/style of musical presentation, delivered by good passives, which is rather addictive.

'Soft sounding' or lacking in drive, the Tissy is not! And that's the problem I usually have with passives.

Marco.

Marco

08-07-2015, 17:58

I tol' youse it was a goodun, Marco. ;)

Aye, yer lugs are not bad! Lol... Tannoys aside, we do tend to agree about a lot of things in audio :)

Marco.

southall-1998

08-07-2015, 23:48

Hmmmm....

This Tissy will work nicely with my spare 303!

S.

DSJR

09-07-2015, 09:04

I thought it lacked impact in my system. Try playing something where the snare really hits you between the eyes and see if it softens that effect any.

Martin, my experiences only, so please take it that way - The old AVI preamp I still keep, mainly for extra input switching duties, is incredibly 'neutral' cosmetically and all the info fed it is there, but I recently discovered that it tends to 'force' the sound along a little, giving you the effect you describe. In my case, this made the sound more 'relentless' and not as 'real,' even into an amp normally used with an active line stage. Connecting in my home-made passive preamp (same attenuators as the Tisbury) improved the 'sound' of this amp no end, significantly closing the gap. This power amp has Noble attenuators already and I think I can confirm that my passive preamp takes away next to nothing and adds absolutely nothing as well. Cables used? SSC with the usual AVI (switcher) to passive and then to NVA powers and Klotz 110 or MC5000 to the HH power amp.

P.S. I could be very wrong here, but I think the whole 'thing' about active preamps was in the olden days (;)), preamps needed to have tone and filter control circuits, phono stages and lots of inputs. Tone bypass often sent that active stage into unity-gain, rather than totally bypass the circuit altogether I believe.

Marco, I shortly have a Krell KSA 50S coming my way in need of some TLC. Once I have it working properly, I have the same dilemma regarding preamp choice. My home made jobbie does the sonic goods just fine, but looks a dogs dinner - it just 'won't do' with a bigger Krell :rolleyes: As to whether the Krell will be as good as it's vaunted, well, that's another tale in the making I reckon...

Macca

09-07-2015, 11:06

Martin, my experiences only, so please take it that way - The old AVI preamp I still keep, mainly for extra input switching duties, is incredibly 'neutral' cosmetically and all the info fed it is there, but I recently discovered that it tends to 'force' the sound along a little, giving you the effect you describe. ...

Dave I know what you mean and that the whole impact thing can be over-egged and therefore not quite right. The Tisbury was the first passive I tried and the transparency on offer was amazing but it was a bit too weak and floppy at the same time. I'm the only person of the many who have tried the Tis here to experience that so I can only put it down to power amp incompatibility. However the NVA P90SA that replaced it had no such issues even with the same power amp.

Joe

09-07-2015, 11:16

I used a passive pre (not the Tisbury) for a couple of years. In the end I reverted to an active pre for precisely the reasons Macca gives: the additional transparency came at the cost of a loss of 'impact'.

Quite obviously different people will have different results with the same components (or will have the same results but react differently to them) so as with all such subjective judgements the only final arbiter is your own ears. The Tisbury, being so relatively cheap is fairly risk-free, and the same goes for the NVA because of the 30 day trial period.

wee tee cee

09-07-2015, 11:22

I plumbed the tissie in for a couple of days and enjoyed it for its clarity and accuracy, returning my battery powered Capella to active duties had a noticeable improvement in the width and depth of the sound stage.

I didnt play around with the impedance settings on the amps to carefully match the tissie...from past experience this can make a difference. My tissie is a keeper but cant compete with the active capella sonically in my set up.

Horses for courses methinks.

DSJR

09-07-2015, 13:38

I haven't tried a pukka stepped attenuator yet. The Tisbury attenuator is a ladder type, working as a conventional pot does, rather than individual resistor 'L-pad' in pairs each 'step' as in better quality attenuators. By the way, my stepped attenuators (50k ones used because I play my workroom system very low most of the time) don't 'sound' any better than the film-pots NVA use in their standard controls, but offer me easier matching in the first two or three 'clicks' of operation.

southall-1998

09-07-2015, 16:10

Marco,

Is your Tisbury the ''Mini'' model?

S.

User211

09-07-2015, 18:33

From experience of using many different types of pots (although not those in question), I'd have to agree. No pot I've used is as accurate/uncoloured sounding as a high-quality stepped attenuator :)

Marco.

The problem is stepped attenuators are a bit shite in other ways. I was using a Kondo M77 with a duff stepped attenuator. The contacts wear out, and equal pressure without oxidisation needs to be attained for BOTH channels. This just doesn't happen with a lot of older units.

Therefore, I propose that they are in fact a bit shite if longevity is a concern..

A P&G plastic pot will last way longer, feel fantastic when you twist it - and sound superb. So will an Alps RK series but TBH I prefer the P&G sonically - just sounds a bit smoother and more natural. At least that's what I have convinced myself to be the case. YMMV.

User211

09-07-2015, 18:43

BTW despite using P&Gs and then an Alps RK for many years I now use an active valve preamp. Not because of a lack of dynamics. Very probably because of added distortion my ears appear to like with this particular unit. It just produces a very spacious soundstage. It has a pretty cheap Alps Blue Velvet in it but the circuit somehow makes amends I believe.

The "belief over reality" thang always worries me in this hobby. We convince ourselves of things that aren't really true quite a bit I reckon.

Plus, active gain is necessary for some recordings or use with some TV channels/Blu Ray disks etc in my system.

Marco

09-07-2015, 22:45

The problem is stepped attenuators are a bit shite in other ways. I was using a Kondo M77 with a duff stepped attenuator. The contacts wear out, and equal pressure without oxidisation needs to be attained for BOTH channels. This just doesn't happen with a lot of older units.

Therefore, I propose that they are in fact a bit shite if longevity is a concern..

A P&G plastic pot will last way longer, feel fantastic when you twist it - and sound superb. So will an Alps RK series but TBH I prefer the P&G sonically - just sounds a bit smoother and more natural. At least that's what I have convinced myself to be the case. YMMV.

Lol - well, that certainly isn't my experience! I've had a DACT stepped attenuator fitted to my Croft for about four years now. The amp is used for many hours every day, and I've had no problems whatsoever with contacts wearing out. It sounds stunningly good and significantly outperforms any pot I've used so far :)

Marco.

Marco

09-07-2015, 22:47

Marco,

Is your Tisbury the ''Mini'' model?

S.

Hi Shane,

Not sure if it's called a 'mini', but it's the older model with the plain wood fascia (no writing on it), point-to-point wiring (instead of PCBs), and no gain controls, etc, underneath. Nothing to interfere with the signal path. Just plain and simple! :)

Marco.

southall-1998

09-07-2015, 23:00

Hi Shane,

Not sure if it's called a 'mini', but it's the older model with the plain wood fascia (no writing on it), point-to-point wiring (instead of PCBs), and no gain controls, etc, underneath. Nothing to interfere with the signal path. Just plain and simple! :)

Marco.

Be nice if you post a pic of it with your system.

S.

Marco

10-07-2015, 06:38

RichB

10-07-2015, 07:20

Here's the original listing, showing the Tissy I've got (you can zoom in on the pics):

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tisbury-Audio-Passive-Preamp-/171838299625?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=ARvcCWcKFTwKzKSdAtDI0Lvdb3E%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

:cool:

Marco.

I also enjoyed the change when I went passive too. You should fetch it along to the NEBO. Macca will have his NVA, I'll take my Icon Audio passive and if Nick comes again maybe we'll have a super dooper Music First too. MikRik usually brings his Prometheus TVC too. Now that would be interesting to see what differences there are between them all.

Marco

10-07-2015, 07:28

Hi Rich,

Yup, that sounds like a plan :)

Don't get me wrong here though, the Tissy is NOT replacing the Croft. It was bought for a bit of fun, a) because I'd never heard a passive in my current system, and b) to reduce the 'heat count' in the system during the hot summer months.

I'm happy to report that in that respect it's been a great success, and also sounds superb (much better than I thought it would - offering amazing value for money), but I'm not going to be abandoning the Croft anytime soon!

Marco.

Ali Tait

10-07-2015, 07:58

I also enjoyed the change when I went passive too. You should fetch it along to the NEBO. Macca will have his NVA, I'll take my Icon Audio passive and if Nick comes again maybe we'll have a super dooper Music First too. MikRik usually brings his Prometheus TVC too. Now that would be interesting to see what differences there are between them all.

I have one with a DACT Stepper I can bring too.

RichB

10-07-2015, 08:58

rubber duck

10-07-2015, 09:20

Not sure if it's called a 'mini', but it's the older model with the plain wood fascia (no writing on it), point-to-point wiring (instead of PCBs), and no gain controls, etc, underneath. Nothing to interfere with the signal path. Just plain and simple! :)

Both versions have the same model name. As for the whole hard wired vs PCB debate, I don't think it's that straight forward.

This from Tisbury: 'The circuit board is superior to point-to-point. It’s the same components, still copper wired, and it’s in a better and more controlled layout.'

Even Tron has this to say: 'When hard wiring is not the best method for assembly a circuit board is created and special attention is paid to each track to ensure we maximise the way the complex audio signal passes across the board.'

That said it would certainly be interesting to compare the old and new versions.

Marco

10-07-2015, 09:39

Hi Jeff,

Yup, I get all that, and it *may* be true (I can't comment because I haven't done the comparison), but it's contrary to my current experience, dictating that hard-wiring (done well) is better than any PCB, which to my ears, to varying degrees, always seems to impose its own distinctive 'sonic signature' on the music signal.

Hey, I guess unless someone does a back to back comparison, we'll never know. Also, in my system, I don't need the gain switches included on the new model, which are just something else to get in the way and sit on the signal path.

Marco.

Macca

10-07-2015, 11:22

I have one with a DACT Stepper I can bring too.

I could also bring my LDR passive pre along. Mega-passive bake-off!

Ali Tait

10-07-2015, 11:26

If we get time.. :-)

User211

10-07-2015, 12:43

Lol - well, that certainly isn't my experience! I've had a DACT stepped attenuator fitted to my Croft for about four years now. The amp is used for many hours every day, and I've had no problems whatsoever with contacts wearing out. It sounds stunningly good and significantly outperforms any pot I've used so far :)

Marco.

I said longevity. Even an ALPS Blue Velvet will last that long... might be on the verge of getting noisy as they do. And they really do.

They also work in discrete steps which is a bit of an arse with some low on step counts. Can never get the right volume.

P&G me any day...:)

Ali Tait

10-07-2015, 12:56

Not that keen on the DACT in my passive. It uses metal film SMD resistors, sound a bit harsh to me.

Marco

10-07-2015, 18:11

I said longevity. Even an ALPS Blue Velvet will last that long... might be on the verge of getting noisy as they do. And they really do.

Nope, no noise here whatsoever, not do I expect any to develop. If you want proper longevity, then Anthony TD has been using them in his Soulmate preamps since 2004 (with zero issues in terms of noise or contacts wearing out, reported by him or any of his customers who've bought a Soulmate): http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/soul_mate.htm

I expect the DACT unit in my Croft to function in the same way, and for a similar amount of time.

They also work in discrete steps which is a bit of an arse with some low on step counts. Can never get the right volume.

Point taken, Justin, but I have no such issues in my system, nor indeed does Anthony in his. It would be impossible to live with the DACT for so long otherwise. Incidentally, the Croft preamp (with DACT fitted) was part of the AoS system you heard, and raved about, at Scalford.

I guess it depends on how the preamp works that it's fitted to, and also what the electrical relationship is with the partnering power amp - oh and how sensitive (or otherwise) are the speakers. As ever, it's all about synergy :)

Marco.

Marco

10-07-2015, 18:17

Not that keen on the DACT in my passive. It uses metal film SMD resistors, sound a bit harsh to me.

Sure, as with anything else, it just depends on the circuit the DACT is used in. They are rather 'honest', however, and thus act (IME) simply as an open window, letting one hear exactly what the circuit they are connected to is doing. Therefore, if it sounds harsh, it's most likely a mismatch with the partnering circuit and/or other system components.

I seriously doubt anyone who's heard the Croft would say that it sounds harsh, as it's an extremely natural and musical sounding device. I'll bring it to the next NEBO and you can have a listen for yourself. It would be an interesting active preamplifier reference point to use against the assembled passives :cool:

Marco.

Marco

10-07-2015, 23:26

Interesting info from Wes, contained in the FAQ section of his ebay advert:

What type of attenuators do you use?

Our SMD stepped attenuators use a 'series' configuration, similar to the excellent DACT and Goldpoint attenuators. These have a track of resistors connected in series and the volume is varied by moving the output up and down the track. This mimics a standard potentiometer and is ideal for audio. They typically have long life, low operation noise, extremely high sound quality, and fairly consistent impedance throughout their range.

Obviously, he rates (as I do) the DACT units - and for good reason.

I've not used Goldpoint, so can't comment on those. However, I can categorically say that the Tisbury (with its SMD stepped attenuator) offers the same, if not even greater, transparency as the Croft does, fitted with a DACT stepper. Both have that 'wide-open window onto the music' thing going on, but combined with a relaxed and effortless musicality, which I love and indeed demand from any components used in my system.

I can pay it no higher compliment. It really is a remarkable little device, and I'm utterly delighted with it! :)

There are also no gain or impedance issues in my system, with the Tisbury, certainly on line-level, as both the RPi and Sony DAC provide the required 2V output, and my TD Copper amp has good input sensitivity and plenty of gain.

I've long suspected that (probably for sound electrical reasons), passives, in general, work better with valve power amps than with many SS amps, unless the latter have been designed specifically to be used with a passive device, which I believe is the case, for example, with NVA equipment.

I realise, however, it's not quite as simple as that, and that other factors come into play, but I feel it's no coincidence that the best sounds I've heard to date from passive devices have been when used in conjunction with high-output [at least 2V] audio sources, connected using short (0.5m) ultra-low capacitance interconnects, suitably compatible valve power amps and high-efficiency speakers, as I'm doing now.

Tomorrow I'll use the Croft purely as a phono stage, and connect it thus to the Tisbury, where I suspect the high output levels generated by my vintage SPU-G/T cartridge (with its built-in SUTs, providing tons of gain) will form a superb partnership with it. More on that later :cool:

Marco.

struth

10-07-2015, 23:35

Inclined to agree Marco. I am using a tvc passive and into my high gain valve power it is so much better than when using the active pre before.

Marco

10-07-2015, 23:55

Yup, for passives to work properly it's simply a matter of getting the system 'infrastructure' right. Thus done, the results can be (and in my system are, and no doubt yours, too) stunning! :)

Marco.

Marco

11-07-2015, 00:06

It would be interesting to compare the Tissie with one of these, which although significantly more expensive, I suspect will still offer exceptional SPPV: http://www.goldpt.com/sa1.html

I like the idea of having 47 steps, too.....

Marco.

struth

11-07-2015, 00:11

This would likely do you nicely .. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Promitheus-Audio-ReferenceTVC-passive-preamp-prometheus-/252013268113?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3aad294c91

Marco

11-07-2015, 00:19

Possibly, but I'm not sure that I need transformer impedance matching, as things are spot on now with the 'series' stepped attenuator of the Tissie. As such, the Goldpoint (above) interests me more, particularly the version with dual-mono volume controls:

http://www.goldpt.com/sa2x.html

Since things can be configured to your own spec, I'd go with non-balanced and RCAs, as that's what would be suitable for my system. I've always considered, however, that dual-mono volume controls offer greater accuracy and better channel separation, but when implemented with pots (a la Croft), are a pain in the arse to use.

With individual high-quality stepped attenuators, however, that wouldn't be an issue. Mmm... I can sense another project in the making! ;)

Marco.

struth

11-07-2015, 00:24

Lol. Nowt like a project. My promitheus has dual mono vc'd. Its one of the older model s

Ali Tait

11-07-2015, 07:37

Sure, as with anything else, it just depends on the circuit the DACT is used in. They are rather 'honest', however, and thus act (IME) simply as an open window, letting one hear exactly what the circuit they are connected to is doing. Therefore, if it sounds harsh, it's most likely a mismatch with the partnering circuit and/or other system components.

I seriously doubt anyone who's heard the Croft would say that it sounds harsh, as it's an extremely natural and musical sounding device. I'll bring it to the next NEBO and you can have a listen for yourself. It would be an interesting active preamplifier reference point to use against the assembled passives :cool:

Marco.

No, I just don't like the sound of metal films, preferring carbons in pots. Had the same thing when I mistakenly bought a stepper from Hi Fi Collective with metal films to fit into the WAD Pre 2 I had at the time. This was tried in several systems at a previous Owston, and there were several comments on the hard sound. Much better when swapped for a carbon resistor version.

Just personal preference at the end of the day.

Marco

11-07-2015, 07:40

Just personal preference at the end of the day.

Sure, I agree, but what I wrote above also applies. We'll just have to agree to disagree on DACT steppers universally sounding 'harsh' because they use metal film resistors, as if they did that here, I wouldn't be using one, and neither would Anthony be fitting them to his preamps.

Like I said, I'll bring the Croft to the next NEBO and you can decide for yourself if you can detect the harshness you hear with metal films :)

Marco.

Marco

11-07-2015, 07:57

Interestingly, the Tisbury is stated as using a stepper with 'thin film SMD resistors', but it doesn't say whether they're carbon or metal.... It certainly doesn't sound harsh, though!

Marco.

Firebottle

11-07-2015, 08:38

SMD resistors are almost certainly a metal oxide for the resistive element.

Tantalum Nitride or Ruthenium Oxide are common substances.

:)

Marco

11-07-2015, 09:05

Thanks, Alan. Well in that case, the Tisbury certainly doesn't sound harsh either.

Like I said, it's all to do with the circuit stuff is put in and how it's implemented overall, not to mention the hi-fi system in which it's used. Therefore, IMO, it's a mistake to form definitive conclusions on any component or piece of audio equipment, when only having heard it in certain contexts :)

Marco.

Ali Tait

11-07-2015, 09:59

Well having spent years trying all sorts of components in all sorts of gear, I tend to prefer good carbons to metals. I think that qualifies me in having an opinion!

Marco

11-07-2015, 10:01

Of course it does, Ali - I never said it didn't. However, that doesn't invalidate my contrary opinion, based on not inconsiderable experience, having lived with and enjoyed metal film resistor-based steppers for years [and not finding them in any way harsh]! :)

Marco.

DSJR

11-07-2015, 17:55

I worry that 'classic' carbon film resistors change in value over many years' use, but whether it's time or stress related I really don't know. Glenn Croft has used metal film resistors in his products for decades now (Holco's in my 4PP's I'm told) and harsh is something they've NEVER EVER been. Sweet certainly (although less, now Glenn told me a few updates to make to it), but never harsh.

Making the chain more transparent to the source *can* show tonal hardness in many speakers, the crossovers of which can go wrong right where our ears are the most sensitive IME. Live acoustic 'brass' can pin you to the wall with natural intensity, but this 'hard hitting' tone isn't the same as electronic harshness. Ali, I'm sorry if I'm going totally off the track.

This afternoon, I was shown the (non-ladder) attenuators NVA use. Beautifully made by the supplier and I have to say the 'feel' is superb, as well as the solid mechanical engineering, which is a plane above the Chinese attenuator I bought for one of my Crown preamps (see the Ken Rockwell review of the IC-150 for details). I was given the chance to try one of these, but I need to have a 'proper' passive preamp to use them in - my home made bodge-up just won't do, whatever it 'sounds' like :D

Marco

12-07-2015, 21:37

Hi Dave,

Glenn Croft has used metal film resistors in his products for decades now (Holco's in my 4PP's I'm told) and harsh is something they've NEVER EVER been. Sweet certainly (although less, now Glenn told me a few updates to make to it), but never harsh.

Yup, same with my own Croft preamp, which DACT stepped attenuator aside, is full of metal-film resistors. Indeed, I don't think I've ever heard any piece of Croft equipment sound harsh.

Making the chain more transparent to the source *can* show tonal hardness in many speakers, the crossovers of which can go wrong right where our ears are the most sensitive IME. Live acoustic 'brass' can pin you to the wall with natural intensity, but this 'hard hitting' tone isn't the same as electronic harshness. Ali, I'm sorry if I'm going totally off the track.

Ali can of course comment for himself, but I think you're spot on, as what you've described above also mirrors my own experience. It's all about 'opening the window', as it were, as widely as possible, and sometimes in doing so, lets in some things that you didn't realise were there before...

That's when you have to decide if what you're hearing that you don't like is what *should* be there or not - and decisions made at that point can either send you on the right path to reproducing a genuinely faithful representation of the music, or not, thus shaping your system's development accordingly.

Oh, and you can't measure for it either - only experienced ears can decide ;) It certainly helps having a fundamental understanding of how real instruments and voices [I]actually sound.

Marco.

Ali Tait

12-07-2015, 22:01

Ok, then I know nothing, am half deaf, have a crap system and not a clue how real instruments sound. Happy now?

Marco

12-07-2015, 22:12

No. Why are you reacting like this, daftee? No-one is saying that you're not entitled to your opinion, or that it isn't valid; just that we don't have to agree with it if our experience differs! :D

And more often than not, we agree about most things in hi-fi. No offence intended, but I just think you're wrong to say unequivocally that metal-film resistors = harsh. That's all :)

Marco.

Firebottle

13-07-2015, 06:48

I think there is a bit of leg pulling in that comment Marco, and you bit :eyebrows:

Personally I think it depends exactly where in the circuit certain resistors are used, though with my limited experience I couldn't say definitively.

:)

Marco

13-07-2015, 07:16

I think there is a bit of leg pulling in that comment Marco, and you bit :eyebrows:

If so, that's fine - but it didn't seem that way...

Personally I think it depends exactly where in the circuit certain resistors are used, though with my limited experience I couldn't say definitively.

Yup, I'd agree with that. If you accept that every component used carries its own 'sonic signature', then quite simply, you don't want that signature to dominate. Therefore, as you say, you employ it selectively in certain positions within the circuit, where you consider it best facilitates what you're trying to create.

That principle applies to resistors, as much as it does to capacitors, valves, or anything else inside a piece of audio equipment; indeed it is precisely how 'voicing' is achieved. But then, as an equipment designer yourself, you already know all that! :exactly:

Marco.

User211

13-07-2015, 12:03

I remember the Tisbury sounding a tad etched or sharp compared to my Air Tight passive.

The next time I get another passive I'll get the mic out to see if it was real. Be really curious to see what it makes of "potentiometer rolling". If it measures no change I'll be surprised - it easily "sees" valve rolls but that's a rather more complicated device than a potentiometer.

Note, Marco, I am not using the mic to decide what is best. I am using it to see if there is a measurable difference to give credibility to what I think I have heard i.e. check I am not deluding myself. Very important, I think.

Marco

13-07-2015, 12:10

Absolutely, and worthwhile doing, as long as in the final analysis you trust what your ears are telling you, not just the measurements! ;)

Again I have to state quite categorically that, in my set up, there is no hint whatsoever of the Tissie sounding 'etched', sharp or harsh - simply very transparent of the signal that it's being fed.

However, I could imagine that due to its brutal honesty, in some set-ups, especially those with a tendency towards forwardness [and where various 'sticking plasters' have been applied to address it], such wide-open transparency may become a bit 'too much of a good thing'.

Marco.

Macca

13-07-2015, 12:15

Won't a mic measurement only give you frequncy response? For evidence of harshness wouldn't you need distortion measurents?

Marco

13-07-2015, 12:57

I've currently got the Croft hooked up the to the Tissie, with the former acting simply as a phono stage, and as suspected playing vinyl, it sounds superb.

It may not *quite* have the airy and spacious 'out of the box' presentation of the Croft, when also being employed as a preamplifier, but it's easily good enough to listen to downstairs in the lounge on my Celestion 15XRs, whilst my normal listening room in this weather is too hot to occupy, with all the valves being used - so much so that I intend to investigate some more expensive passives, such as the Goldpoint I referred to earlier.

The Tissie has certainly been a (very welcome) eye-opener and another beneficial learning curve for me in this hobby of ours! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR

13-07-2015, 16:59

Something that can be predicted by measurement is possible changes doe to impedance (mis)matching. The Tis uses 10K attenuators I believe, where for whatever reason (continuity with what I know?) I use 47k or 50K, the latter in the Tis-type attenuators I'm currently using. I can't measure and have no idea what if anything I've done to the response, but it 'sounds' fine to me. Hopefully it's mostly gain that's affected...

Marco

13-07-2015, 17:46

User211

13-07-2015, 18:40

Won't a mic measurement only give you frequncy response? For evidence of harshness wouldn't you need distortion measurents?

Well I'd only measure for FR changes, as I think distortion should be pretty negligible, but yeah odd harmonics are supposed to sound "hard". I just can't see a potentiometer generating much in that direction though. I didn't think the Tizzer sounded harsh just possibly a bit brighter accounting for the "more etched" perception. But who knows. My Alps I believe is 50K versus the 10K Tizz.

Much depends on impedance ratios and it seems to be a less than trivial topic. I'm not really into electronics in any way so I am not qualified to comment.

Of course the Tizzer should sound "tizzy". It's only logical:D

cyclopse

13-07-2015, 20:09

I've currently got the Croft hooked up the to the Tissie, with the former acting simply as a phono stage, and as suspected playing vinyl, it sounds superb.

It may not *quite* have the airy and spacious 'out of the box' presentation of the Croft, when also being employed as a preamplifier, but it's easily good enough to listen to downstairs in the lounge on my Celestion 15XRs, whilst my normal listening room in this weather is too hot to occupy with all the valves being used - so much so that I intend to investigate some more expensive passives, such as the Goldpoint I referred to earlier.

The Tissie has certainly been a (very welcome) eye-opener and another beneficial learning curve for me in this hobby of ours! :cool:

Marco.

I know exactly where your coming from regards valve heat in summer. Keep me nice and warm in winter but high summer temperatures are another issue.

Regards

Steve

mikmas

13-07-2015, 21:03

How would the gain be affected, Dave? I've always wondered how the 'K' value of pots or attenuators affects the gain on the amp they're connected to :)

Is 10K 'higher gain' than 50K, or if not, how does it work?

Marco.

I may be completely wrong on this (I usually am) but I understand the basic principle of a passive to be that of a voltage divider and therefore reductive (i.e. there is no 'gain' involved but the opposite) As the gain of the power amp is fixed it is not affected but simply supplied with a lowered voltage to work with depending on the pot position. Whether the pot is 10k or 50k will only affect the sweep of the voltage/volume curve.

I have experimented with various values with my DIY passives (using traditional Alps pots) and found 10k to be the most useful with my Quad 303 and typical 'modern' output levels.

Marco

14-07-2015, 07:16

As the gain of the power amp is fixed it is not affected but simply supplied with a lowered voltage to work with depending on the pot position. Whether the pot is 10k or 50k will only affect the sweep of the voltage/volume curve.

Yeah, gain is the wrong term, but you know what I mean.

By "sweep of the voltage/volume curve" do you mean how loud the sound gets in relation to the travel of the volume control? For example the sound level, with a 10k pot, at the '9 o'clock' position on a preamp, will be louder or quieter than that of a 50k pot at the same position?

If I'm talking bollocks, just say so, as I'm trying to learn :)

Marco.

Firebottle

14-07-2015, 09:07

You're talking bollocks. Yeah :yay: I've always wanted to say that :rofl:

Seriously the "sweep of the voltage/volume curve" is called the law, it is usually linear or logarithmic from one end to the other. The value of the track will make no difference to the equal loudness position.
Logarithmic pots are used for volume control because the sensitivity of the ear varies with sound level, as shown by the Fletcher-Munson curves:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Lindos4.svg/400px-Lindos4.svg.png

If you had a linear pot as the volume control all the adjustment would appear to be squashed at the top end.

:)

Marco

14-07-2015, 11:42

You're talking bollocks. Yeah :yay: I've always wanted to say that :rofl:

Hehehehe... Thought I'd give you the opportunity! :D

As for the rest of the above, I'm afraid that it flies right over my big daft dome........

Marco.

Firebottle

14-07-2015, 12:03

OK you big daft nut. As you are keen to learn.

For a linear law pot, turn it 20% round and the tapping point (the output) will be at 20%. Turn it 50% and the output will be 50% etc.
These type of pots are used for bass and treble controls as an example.

For control of volume the increase in output needs to be quite small at the beginning but becoming a lot greater towards the top end, because the ear has a logarithmic response to sound level:

http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/Resistors/images/lin_log_action.gif

This is so that we can achieve sensible apparent changes to sound level over the full travel of the pot.

:D