Speaker adjustment tweak -- worked a treat for me

[brucew268]

Paul McGowan posed in his PS Tracks blog a tweak suggestion from David Pogue: toe in the loudspeakers so far that the speaker’s acoustic meeting point happens 3 feet in front of the listener.

Some readers reported a good effect, some not. For my system, the result was a revelation! Since moving to my present home and listening environment, I have always been slightly underwhelmed at the imaging, balance, speed, and integration of the sound.

It seems that the 'cheapest tweak' as Paul called it (hyper-toe-in) is likely to be mostly about speaker/room boundary interactions. My room is a bit on the small side (13×16 with the last 5 feet being a dining area and the speakers on the long wall). It takes a good deal of care with speaker placement and strategic wall treatments and I still have more than the ideal reflective surfaces nearby.

I’ve lately been experimenting with the old inner-tube & roller-block-style suspension with some good effect… but not quite there. When I followed David P’s cheap tweak, the sound stage suddenly gelled like it used to with my old house and speakers; it became much more lifelike. The balance became more integrated, and the feeling of speed and detail problems went away. I can’t imagine that the speed actually changed, but the annoyances disappeared.

I have a couple jazz trios recorded digitally in the 90′s which I always found a bit opaque sounding (no depth at all to the sound stage, and little bright, cool, and splashy – worse before I attended more closely to vibration and EMI). Monday was the first time I’ve actually listened to those albums on the home rig with a smile on my face.

Of course the effect is lesser or greater depending on what time of day I'm playing music, and how much electrical noise my neighbours are feeding into the mains!

[hifi_dave]

Surely, that is just positioning the speakers for best effect ?

Some speakers/rooms/listeners need minimal toe-in or tweeters directed at the listening position. It all depends.

[brucew268]

True, but most discussion I've heard ranges from no toe-in to pointing straight at the listener. These toe in to a spot not behind but in front of the listener, which I had never considered nor read about. Usually instructions would say to toe in the speakers on a mono recording until one obtains a solid central image. Then adjust back out a little from there.

[Tarzan]

Paul McGowan posed in his PS Tracks blog a tweak suggestion from David Pogue: toe in the loudspeakers so far that the speaker’s acoustic meeting point happens 3 feet in front of the listener.

Some readers reported a good effect, some not. For my system, the result was a revelation! Since moving to my present home and listening environment, I have always been slightly underwhelmed at the imaging, balance, speed, and integration of the sound.

It seems that the 'cheapest tweak' as Paul called it (hyper-toe-in) is likely to be mostly about speaker/room boundary interactions. My room is a bit on the small side (13×16 with the last 5 feet being a dining area and the speakers on the long wall). It takes a good deal of care with speaker placement and strategic wall treatments and I still have more than the ideal reflective surfaces nearby.

I’ve lately been experimenting with the old inner-tube & roller-block-style suspension with some good effect… but not quite there. When I followed David P’s cheap tweak, the sound stage suddenly gelled like it used to with my old house and speakers; it became much more lifelike. The balance became more integrated, and the feeling of speed and detail problems went away. I can’t imagine that the speed actually changed, but the annoyances disappeared.

I have a couple jazz trios recorded digitally in the 90′s which I always found a bit opaque sounding (no depth at all to the sound stage, and little bright, cool, and splashy – worse before I attended more closely to vibration and EMI). Monday was the first time I’ve actually listened to those albums on the home rig with a smile on my face.

Of course the effect is lesser or greater depending on what time of day I'm playing music, and how much electrical noise my neighbours are feeding into the mains!


Very busy at the moment Bruce, but will indeed give this a try as it is for nought, will report back as l have a small room too:)

[YNWaN]

I think it is the speaker manufacturer Audio Physics that recommends that their speakers are set up very wide apart with a huge amount of toe-in (which is similar to what you are describing.

Edit: of course this only works if your speakers happen to have very good off-axis response (which many do not, or at least the off-axis response is uneven across the frequency range). By arranging the speakers so that their axis cross over significantly in front of the listener one reduces the direct sound heard and, as directionality increases as frequency rises, this is likely to significant impact upon the treble.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Steen Doessing's SD Acoustics speakers benefited from a similar set-up to this - toe-in so that the axes cross just in front of you. To me they always sounded at their very best like this.

[jandl100]

Some owners of the ProAc Future Point5 speakers I briefly owned recommended that they be pointed outwards! I tried that and it kind of worked, but I couldn't settle with the speakers no matter where they were pointed.

I have come across some speakers that benefited from severe toe-in, but I could never get used to how they looked - it's kind of weird.

[apollo]

My B&Ws behave in a similar manner, they benefit from a large toe in. Not 3 feet.. but I have good results with the axes meeting just in front of the listener.
I too have a smallish room, 14ft x 11ft x 11ft.

One more thing which helped me is tilting the speakers "slightly" upward.. so that they are firing at an angle of about 20 degrees to the horizontal. Increases the soundstage height and large scale dynamics for me. Sounds especially good for symphonic and orchestral music.

[jandl100]

One more thing which helped me is tilting the speakers "slightly" upward.. so that they are firing at an angle of about 20 degrees to the horizontal. Increases the soundstage height and large scale dynamics for me. Sounds especially good for symphonic and orchestral music.

Interesting - I guess it can depend on the off-axis response of the speaker and its interaction with the room.

My speakers benefit from a slight downtilt. When I posted about this, other owners of the same or similar model speaker tried it and agreed. I think in this case it is due to the interaction of the drive units with the speaker cabinet structure.

[YNWaN]

Small amounts of tilt are usually to help time alignment of the drivers; but I would be surprised if twenty degrees really was the angle. My own speakers have a tilt of only 2.5 degrees and that is already pretty easy to see.

[apollo]

Did some measurements, hacked into my brain to recall some high school trigonometry, and calculated the elevation to be closer to 5 degrees :doh:

Looks like my eye estimation was way over the top :sofa:

[jandl100]

yeah - 20 degrees and the speaker would probably fall over if the drivers are near the top. :eyebrows:

[Mr Kipling]

The idea is not a new one and dates back to at least the '80s. Didn't work for me when I tried it back then.

Here's an alternative. Haven't tried it myself due to domestic arrangements.

P.S.
One speaker manufacturer used to supply small wedges for use with their speakers to tilt them up. Can't remember if it was Yorkshire Hi-Fi.

[The Grand Wazoo]

One speaker manufacturer used to supply small wedges for use with their speakers to tilt them up

Heybrook did a thing to go between the HB2 speakers and stands - it was a bar shaped thingy which went across the front edge.

[YNWaN]

Linn made stands for the Isobariks (the last stands they made for them) that had metal spacer bars at the front that angled the speakers back by about two degrees.

Jimmy Hughes had some pretty esoteric ideas (might still have) with regard to speaker positioning; DSJR (Dave) knew him pretty well in those days and often heard his system.

[Alex_UK]

Wasn't it Jimmy Hughes who advocated firing speakers backwards at one time? I remember trying it, though I could't see or hear the attraction!

[jandl100]

I went to Jimmy Hughes' flat once - a split level living room, the speakers were on the lower level, the listening chairs on the higher level. The firing of the Isobariks at the back wall worked quite well in those circumstances and kind of squirted the sound around in a somewhat omnidirectional manner. Strange but true.

[icehockeyboy]

I went to Jimmy Hughes' flat once - a split level living room, the speakers were on the lower level, the listening chairs on the higher level. The firing of the Isobariks at the back wall worked quite well in those circumstances and kind of squirted the sound around in a somewhat omnidirectional manner. Strange but true.

A bit like the philosophy that Bose use with their 901's?

I heard that Amar Bose worked out that when at a live concert, approx 90% of the sound reaching our ears is reflected, and the other 10% direct, hence his design of 8 drivers reflecting off a wall, and 1 forward facing unit.