linear tracker bad esd

[richard l martin]

Hi everyone. As i have said before i have been getting some sibilant distortion on the end tracks on some records so i borrowed a technics linear tracking tt which is supposed to have zero tracking era. What a joke! It displayed far more esd than any of my traditional tts! Funny thing is, when i hear distorted sibilants on my cd players i ignore it. It doesn't bother me and i put it down to the recording but wen i hear them on my tts it irritates me and i start fiddling and wishing for better tts. I think its time to stop all that and just enjoy the music. After all it could just be that these certain ten or so records out of many more are at fault. Kind regards everyone.:)

[StanleyB]

When I was a repair engineer in the 80's I discovered the same problem. But after a bit of experimenting I found what I think is the reason for it.
If you normally play a record with a normal tracking arm the vinyl material is slowly bending towards a 90 degrees tracking angle with respect to the stylus tip.
When you play a linear tracking TT that distortion created in the vinyl previously is now creating an uneven tracking groove for the path of the linear mounted stylus. This problem is more severe towards the inner grooves.

I use separate test records for different types of turntable designs for that reason. Funnily enough, my most favourite test record was an LP by Dona Summers. The bass cut on it could really put lesser stylus and arm combination under stress.

[WOStantonCS100]

esd? :scratch: Electro-static discharge??? I don't understand. Do I have the wrong acronym?

Technics, like the SL-J2, SL-QL1 (which I don't own anymore) and the SL-M3 which I do own, as well as the SL-1200MK2 with Trans-Fi T3 Pro air bearing arm certainly don't exhibit the characteristics you're describing. The latter being the best I've heard to date at eliminating inner groove distortion (IGD). I often can't tell if I'm listening to the first song or the last song. But, I'm also using carts with ruby cantilevers and nude contact line styli. Even on my stock techy arm, the IGD with said styli is not far behind the T3 Pro.

The Technics, electronic LT's are not really "true" linear trackers. They more or less traverse the record in a tight wave pattern, as there must be some play in the arm to activate the motor that moves them across the record. They still have far less tracking error in terms of the "arc" than pivoted arms; though, there are obviously other issues with the implementation that put air bearings easily above them. What I have found most commonly is that the VTF, which is a little cumbersome and easily miss read, is usually set with too little down force. Despite T4P carts being spec'd for 1.5g max, often a touch more is actually needed, especially for aftermarket replacement styli. Also, if the drive belt for the arm becomes weak and stretched out, the styli "drag" on the groove and surely cause distortion or damage. I just replaced the tonearm drive belt in my SL-M3 this weekend, as I don't feel like replacing any records any time soon. However, setup right, my old SL-QL1 and the SL-M3 sounded very impressive. The SL-J2 was a junk toy with a flimsy platter - hated the sound of that thing - even set up properly. "Limp" describes it.

I think any used record will have a "pattern" of wear. My SL-M3 and T3'd 1200 both have a knack off showing up records for what they really are; however, more often than not they make the most of them, rather than less of them. Sorry, if you're experiencing something otherwise. :(

[StanleyB]

esd? :scratch: Electro-static discharge??? I don't understand. Do I have the wrong acronym?(
I was referring to the distortion heard.

[WOStantonCS100]

I was referring to the distortion heard.

Yes, of course. I guess, perhaps, I didn't understand the title of the thread.

[YNWaN]

ESD - End of Side Distortion.

However, in this case I suspect that the OP is interpreting sibilance, incorrectly, to the effect of end of side distortion.

The confusion is further amplified by the inclusion of the Technics Linear tracker. As stated in an earlier post, this is really a kind of hybrid between a pivoted arm and a motorised linear tracker.

Stylus shape and alignment make a huge difference and can overwhelm the differences between true linear trackers and pivoted arms; in this case I suspect these issues are more relevant.

[WOStantonCS100]

ESD - End of Side Distortion.

Ahhhhh... :lol: I knew I must have been interpreting that wrongly.

[icehockeyboy]

Best linear tracking arm I ever had, actually the only one I had was a Rabco SL8E, mounted on a Thorens TD125 with a Shure V15/3.

If its cost compared to an SME was anything to go by, Around £250 compared to the SME at about a fifth of the price, it should have been the best thing to ever sit upon a Thorens!

Bear in mind that was about 38 years ago, so it was a hell of a lot of DOSH for an arm, even by today's standards!

[Macca]

I had a small amount of ESD when using the Nagaoka MP11 - varied from record to record but I was aware of it occasionally - with the MP50 there is none at all. It does seem to be mainly related to how fine the stylus is - If you wan to banish ESD then get a better cart.

[DSJR]

Aren't we getting just a little anal about this?

There are many reasons for ESD style annoyances - bad tweeters taking off, nasty and ill-designed passive crossovers, dirty diamnond styli (and records), phono stages overloading in a "ringy" way etc.etc..

The fact the OP seems to have issues with CD's too indicates a possible problem elsewhere in the system, being magnified by what's often there in the grooves - in my opinion..

The little Techie linear trackers WITH DECENT STYLI!!!!! were good to side end, but some of the third party styli were horrible and scratchy sounding. I have one of the popular P24 style cartridges in a proper half-inch mount (not a T-4P one) and have been toying with the idea of getting an elliptical stylus for it. I've been put off by memories of after-market replacement styli from a number of years ago which were way inferior to the official ones. Things may have changed now though, but since Technics made so many of the cartridges, I'm surprised they didn't continue with the styli sadly...

P.S. With respect, Mission 737's weren't the last word in high frequency or crossover design at all as I remember - hmmm............

[richard l martin]

Hi everyone. Some interesting comments and thanks everyone. Yes i do have sibilant issues on some cds and i found DSJRs comment on my speakers very interesting. I have had them for over 20 years now and have always been happy with them but maybe its time for a change. In the past i was never bothered by sibilant distortion or esd infact i didn't know about esd until i joined Audiokarma about 6 months ago. Ever since then i seem to have been obsessed with it! No good. Don't go on Audiokarma any more, found people on there to be rather unfriendly. Kind regards all.

[WOStantonCS100]

Hi everyone. Some interesting comments and thanks everyone. Yes i do have sibilant issues on some cds and i found DSJRs comment on my speakers very interesting. I have had them for over 20 years now and have always been happy with them but maybe its time for a change. In the past i was never bothered by sibilant distortion or esd infact i didn't know about esd until i joined Audiokarma about 6 months ago. Ever since then i seem to have been obsessed with it! No good. Don't go on Audiokarma any more, found people on there to be rather unfriendly. Kind regards all.

Hope you get it sorted. This is certainly not AK! Been there. Done that. Ran helter skelter from it and haven't looked back since. :)

[DSJR]

Richard, all I can suggest is to get a listen to some decent modern alternatives which are not inclined to impressive over-etched treble (and there's still a good few of those around). To start with, you should have a Spendor dealer where you are (I'm a Harbeth fan too, but you'll need to travel up to and beyond London to hear some). Vintage wise, loads of refined and uncoloured models from Celestion (DL Series onwards), some KEF models (some of the cheaper ones went from being sludge-boxes to fairly recent Q types which strip paint at fifty paces...). Popular "HiFi" models from Neat and Kudos will spit and scream methinks, but there have been some Charios from time to time which are quite gentle and the later Castle models were refined as well. heck, even Linn Katan and Ninka were quite good up top too ;)

[richard l martin]

Hope you get it sorted. This is certainly not AK! Been there. Done that. Ran helter skelter from it and haven't looked back since. :) Thank you. No not AK. Sensible friendly and very helpful people here! :)

[richard l martin]

Richard, all I can suggest is to get a listen to some decent modern alternatives which are not inclined to impressive over-etched treble (and there's still a good few of those around). To start with, you should have a Spendor dealer where you are (I'm a Harbeth fan too, but you'll need to travel up to and beyond London to hear some). Vintage wise, loads of refined and uncoloured models from Celestion (DL Series onwards), some KEF models (some of the cheaper ones went from being sludge-boxes to fairly recent Q types which strip paint at fifty paces...). Popular "HiFi" models from Neat and Kudos will spit and scream methinks, but there have been some Charios from time to time which are quite gentle and the later Castle models were refined as well. heck, even Linn Katan and Ninka were quite good up top too ;)

Thanks for that. I feel much happier nowing that it is most lkelly my speakers at fault infact having listend to some cds last night i am pretty sure it is. Time for some ebaying. Should be able to pick up a pair of Celestions there.

[DSJR]

Celestion - in my opinion obviously - made a very consistent series of speakers over the years. Mordaunt Short also had a couple of stars (the 30.1 [and smaller 20.1] for sale here a week or so ago are cases in point), especially the ones with Robin Marshall's input, Speaking of Robin, his own Epos ES11 could sound refined and civilised and I'd love to hear them again on more modern gear, since in my day the ES14 (which does have a sssssparkle in its final form) took all the interest in dealerships such as mine.

I think Wharfedale did some great things too, but may have gone from lively and fresh sounding (505's) on the one hand to either bland/boring or restrained (depending on viewpoint) with the *08 series. The move to Chinese manufacturing and the subsequent floorstanders are too late for me and I don't know how some of these models sound - the Diamond series are, by and large, sublime and now very cheap miniatures on the used market I think.

Lastly, I can't comment with overmuch enthusiasm for much of B&W's output I'm afraid. This form specialises in an upper mid recession (oooh missus :lol:) followed by a treble which either bites your head off, or sparkles pleasantly (on the dearer ones). The original M805 was a goodie though and apparently the black ones were the most "accurate" and the walnut ones slightly warmer in balance for the domestic market. They MUST be presented on high stands though, with the tweeter set above you. later 805's in the curvy boxes may look better, but the crossover simplification may not always be a good thing I believe.

[richard l martin]

Celestion - in my opinion obviously - made a very consistent series of speakers over the years. Mordaunt Short also had a couple of stars (the 30.1 [and smaller 20.1] for sale here a week or so ago are cases in point), especially the ones with Robin Marshall's input, Speaking of Robin, his own Epos ES11 could sound refined and civilised and I'd love to hear them again on more modern gear, since in my day the ES14 (which does have a sssssparkle in its final form) took all the interest in dealerships such as mine.

I think Wharfedale did some great things too, but may have gone from lively and fresh sounding (505's) on the one hand to either bland/boring or restrained (depending on viewpoint) with the *08 series. The move to Chinese manufacturing and the subsequent floorstanders are too late for me and I don't know how some of these models sound - the Diamond series are, by and large, sublime and now very cheap miniatures on the used market I think.

Lastly, I can't comment with overmuch enthusiasm for much of B&W's output I'm afraid. This form specialises in an upper mid recession (oooh missus :lol:) followed by a treble which either bites your head off, or sparkles pleasantly (on the dearer ones). The original M805 was a goodie though and apparently the black ones were the most "accurate" and the walnut ones slightly warmer in balance for the domestic market. They MUST be presented on high stands though, with the tweeter set above you. later 805's in the curvy boxes may look better, but the crossover simplification may not always be a good thing I believe.
Thanks for the insight its been taken on board. I'm going to have to save up for a bit now!:)