View Full Version : Gale GS401 Re-foam Project
I am now the very pleased owner of a pair of classic Gale GS401 speakers in wood finish. I bought them on eBay as 'for parts or not working' for the princely sum of £38.69. I intend to fully refurbish them by re-foaming the four woofers, checking/testing the other drivers (the tweeters have the correct resistance across them and the domes are intact), and rebuilding the crossovers. I'll give the baffles a lick of paint and do what I can to restore the wood finish to its former glory (although I'm no woodworker).
I'll report back occasionally on progress. The re-foam kit is on order from here (http://www.speaker-repairs.co.uk/shop/refoam/gale.html).
First question: does anyone have a circuit diagram and/or parts description for the crossovers?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8104/8638608920_72feec298a_b.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8638609024_8d869ce93d_b.jpg
Interestingly, mine are made in the USA which makes them relatively rare and late models.
Nice one Martin - I reckon they will be well worth the effort. :)
istari_knight
10-04-2013, 20:16
Lovely jubbly :)
Everything you need to know: http://0339436.netsolhost.com/WordPress/gs401-speaker/
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/istari_knight9/Copy-2-of-GS401-Speaker-Crossover-Schematic-4_zps0ee9e0d5.jpg
Another well documented refurb: http://www.funkygibbins.me.uk/?page_id=5306
They look interesting Martin. Given their vintage I expect the veneer on the cabinets will be of a reasonable thickness and with a bit of effort should come up nicely, should be great project :)
Thanks for the crossover circuit and links, James :)
Given their vintage I expect the veneer on the cabinets will be of a reasonable thickness
The veneer's good, Rich, except for the bottom-left corner on the r/h speaker in the photo. I'll take some advice from a woodworker friend on how to repair that, or else just disguise it.
walpurgis
10-04-2013, 22:23
Don't forget to check that the crossover values shown are for that issue of the speaker. i.e., take into account any model/component variations.
Also, the HF2000 tweeters are missing their perforated dome covers. They do come up for sale second hand now and then and I believe they can still be sourced new (LS3/5a uses them too).
If you choose to use contact adhesive for the bass surrounds let me know, I can provide something ideally suited.
Thanks Geoff, I'll be careful to check. I haven't opened them up yet but it looks like my crossovers may be point-to-point rather than the UK made PCBs. Do the HF2000 tweeters need their dome covers for sound quality or just to protect them?
The correct adhesive comes with the re-foam kit, as do all the magnetic gap shims etc. I've done a re-foam before with JBL bass drivers.
walpurgis
10-04-2013, 22:29
Do the HF2000 tweeters need their dome covers for sound quality or just to protect them?
Both!
Ok, thanks Geoff. I've found one (stuck in the front cover) so I'll need to find another one.
walpurgis
10-04-2013, 23:07
Try putting a WTD in "Private Exhibitions".
You'd be amazed what people have laying about (especially me).
walpurgis
10-04-2013, 23:23
The dome covers are best refitted using thin double sided adhesive tape, as was done by the manufacturer. Very carefully scrape off any old residue first.
istari_knight
11-04-2013, 09:20
I haven't opened them up yet but it looks like my crossovers may be point-to-point rather than the UK made PCBs.
Oops :o Your quite right, the U.S made ones are point to point & by the look of it are stapled to the cabinet... I'm sure you'll have fun removing them :D
Really? Not mounted on a sub-board? :doh:
istari_knight
11-04-2013, 10:13
Sorry I didn't type that very well... It looks like the sub-board is stapled to the cabinet.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/istari_knight9/US-Main-Crossover-Pic_zps91d63e7a.jpg
walpurgis
11-04-2013, 10:31
They look like decent sized air cored inductors. The terminals, caps & wiring may be worth updating. The ceramic 'L' pads may be worth leaving in circuit, as the balance of the speaker will alter if you take them out and you might have to tinker with the crossover to get things how you like them.
The calibration was done and then the pot-knobs placed after, so before removing them, please check the resistances either side of the pots should you wish to use hard wired fixed values - may not matter by now but thought I should mention it.
401's and 402's need POWER and I remember preferring them mounted sideways, but it's obviously up to the user :) These things could rock on jazz and percussive music in general and once cleaned up, it'll be interesting to read how they compare with modern stuff...
Thanks Dave, I was reading that last night. I shall measure and note the resistance of each arm of the pot and will replace with fixed resistors.
No problem with POWER - I have a Chord SPM-1200E, remember? ;)
Audio Al
11-04-2013, 12:56
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::):goodthread:
istari_knight
27-04-2013, 18:59
How goes it ? I noticed another pair of 401's on eBay which could be handy for spares should you need any.
I now have the re-foam kits and am waiting for a day off to get to work on them. I'm too tired in the evenings! Will likely start tomorrow as I'm at home waiting for BT Infinity to be installed.
Great find Martin (just noticed this thread!). My only observation with the crossovers is that the two air-cored inductors on the RHS are a little close for being on the same axis (the influence from air cored inductors with the sort of current you'll get through them could be 150 to 200mm) so I'd be tempted to turn the axis of the top RHS (smaller) one over by 90 degrees and cable tie/glue in place.
Get rid of those caps (is that electrolytics they used for crossovers?) and replace with something like the Claritycap MRs or ESA polyprops instead. Resistors I'd test and if in tolerance leave well alone. L pads can also be tested but if replacing with an alternative fixed value solution, ensure that you understand any impedance ratio's for the "flat" setting as you may end up having to tweak a resistor value or two (don't know as I haven't looked closely at the circuit diagram but worth consideration?).
Thanks, Paul. Good advice about the inductors, I'll check. Being the US built ones, I'm hoping the point-to-point crossover board comes out easily. I will definitely be replacing the caps and I like ClarityCaps a lot. However, the 80uF and 66uF(?) will have to be replaced with good modern bipolar electrolytics.
I was going to measure the resistances of the pots in their factory set 'centre' positions and substitute with fixed resistors. Much to do!
Rare Bird
28-04-2013, 19:36
Thanks, Paul. Good advice about the inductors, I'll check. Being the US built ones, I'm hoping the point-to-point crossover board comes out easily. I will definitely be replacing the caps and I like ClarityCaps a lot. However, the 80uF and 66uF(?) will have to be replaced with good modern bipolar electrolytics.
Ansar do 60uF & 80uF Polyprops 5% they do a 6.8uF anorl..
I've just seen that the two big caps (60uF and 80uF) are simply in series, so I can replace them with a single 34uF cap. I could therefore use a Supersound 30uF in parallel with a 4uF. Better not to have the signal going through two caps in series.
Andre: yes, Ansar are really nice caps, too. Choices, choices...
I was going to measure the resistances of the pots in their factory set 'centre' positions and substitute with fixed resistors. Much to do!
The Centre position on the UK made 401 and 402's wasn't the "flat" setting. I'm sure I remember there being "calibration" positions marked on the backplate where the knobs were aligned to, the mid almost fully up I think from long-ago memory. Since the bass is so dry on these, I think I used to back the mid off a bit from the "calibration" setting, but since the updates to the crossover you're making may well alter this original setting, it'll have to be done by ear if you don't have means od measuring what they're doing.
Hint - if you like to rebuild classic speakers and bearing in mind your obvious reasonable disposable income, why not consider a dedicated software for measuring and a properly calibrated mic. I know it'll be probably expensive and I'm way out of date, but MLSA? used to work brilliantly in free space, the mic carefully set in distance from the speaker.....
Rare Bird
28-04-2013, 20:14
I've just seen that the two big caps (60uF and 80uF) are simply in series, so I can replace them with a single 34uF cap. I could therefore use a Supersound 30uF in parallel with a 4uF. Better not to have the signal going through two caps in series.
12uF+22uF in parallel then..
The Centre position on the UK made 401 and 402's wasn't the "flat" setting. I'm sure I remember there being "calibration" positions marked on the backplate where the knobs were aligned to, the mid almost fully up I think from long-ago memory.
I haven't got the crossovers out yet, but will measure them in the factory set position which, as you say, may not be the centre of travel.
I do have a digital sound meter and can plot responses, so will do that once I've built them and bought some stands for them.
walpurgis
28-04-2013, 20:29
Is your sound meter corrected for variations in mic response?
Yes, I've used it for years. Mic is built-in and I use c-weighted readings.
Ok, I've bought all Supersound polypropylene caps to replace the old ones, and a selection of ceramic resistors so that I can get the mid and treble levels just so. I shall replace the variable pots with blanking plugs.
The right-hand Celestion HF2000 tweeter doesn't look so good (the front mounting that contains the dome is warped), although it measures the same as the left-hand one. I shall try sticking it down with an annulus weight. If it turns out to be non-functional, I shall buy a pair of SEAS H0737 as drop-in replacements and compensate for level.
There's only one fuse shown in the circuit diagram yet there are two on the rear panel, the second one says 'HF fuse' so must be protecting the tweeter :scratch:
I shall most likely delete them anyway since there is no place for fuses in speakers in my book.
Rare Bird
29-04-2013, 10:48
Great stuff Martin look forward to seeing the end job. Will you be buying better power resistors once you have decided on the level that suits your ears?
Probably, Andr'e. What do you recommend over wirewound ceramics?
Rare Bird
29-04-2013, 11:19
Mills 'MRA-12' Hi Fi Collective stock em..
Rare Bird
29-04-2013, 11:58
If you ever need some 2R2, 'MRA-12' ive got four spare here..
Cheers mate, I may do (for the mid driver) depending on how it balances out.
walpurgis
29-04-2013, 19:32
The right-hand Celestion HF2000 tweeter doesn't look so good (the front mounting that contains the dome is warped), although it measures the same as the left-hand one. I shall try sticking it down with an annulus weight. If it turns out to be non-functional, I shall buy a pair of SEAS H0737 as drop-in replacements and compensate for level.
I'd be very reluctant to move away from using the HF2000. It's one of the key factors in the sound of this speaker, as you will find if you try another tweeter.
The HF2000 has wonderful detail with a distinctive creamy smoothness and I've not heard quite the same from other similar sized dome drivers.
I'll do what I can to rescue it, Geoff!
Ok, got the Danish oil now. Drivers and crossovers coming out tomorrow and I'll work on the cabinets too. Crossover components on their way from Wilmslow. Tomorrow is refurb day #1 :)
walpurgis
04-05-2013, 21:22
Good luck with it. Interesting speakers, that should sound great when finished.
One set of drivers removed, the AR bass drivers are in a bad way and will be refoamed. I'm not sure about the Peerless mid, it looks ok and the surround flexes fine. I may leave it well alone although I have the refoam kit if needs be. This Celestion tweeter looks ok, the other one is in a very bad way and I may not be able to rescue it.
The internal wadding looks different from the fibreglass of the British ones, could be lambs wool.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8396/8714185518_8615cc0887_b.jpg
The crossover is shocking: point to point wiring I prefer over a PCB, but the bloody thing has got glue all over it, bits of wadding stuck to it and is stapled to the rear panel!
Also, the internal wiring is very naff thin stuff. Looks like these US built Gales were not given the TLC in manufacturing of the British ones.
Good internal bracing, the cabinets look strong.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8125/8713062969_b20e966a7b_b.jpg
Rare Bird
06-05-2013, 12:41
Um that glue maybe a problem if you try removing it you might take the coating off the Inductor wire in the process..
walpurgis
06-05-2013, 14:30
The glue was just a crude way to stop components vibrating/resonating. You should be able to change the wiring easily enough by the look of it.
The capacitors should prize off if need be and as Andr'e suggests, the inductors are probably best left well alone. They look like reasonable air cored items anyway.
Don't worry about the crossover appearance, it's no worse than many of its time. I don't know if you intend to keep the 'L' pads, if you remove them the mid & top output levels will be a bit higher and you may need to compensate.
I'd say don't touch the midrange units unless you have to. It's hard to tell from the picture, but they look as though they have foam surrounds, I'm fairly sure there was a variant of this unit with cloth surrounds which may be worth looking out for. If you suspect the foam is about to fall apart, gently give them a thin coat of Aleene's Original Tacky Glue, it will strengthen them but keep them pliant, you may want to thin it with about 25% water. I used it on my Tannoy foam surrounds and it worked a treat. It's basically simliar to Plastiflex, which was is used for cone and surround doping. When dry it goes clear and remains elastic and tacky to touch.
I'm sure you've thought of this, but mask off and give the baffles a spray with satin black before you refit the drivers.
Thanks, Geoff. I will try to preserve the mids and have ordered some Aleene's.
To be honest, I'm considering building the crossovers from new. I'm currently trying to undo the staples to get the old ones out (there's glue to contend with, too). Quite tricky through a bass driver hole. I won't keep the L-pads, I've calculated the fixed resistors I'll need to replace them.
LittleTone
06-05-2013, 16:00
Hi Martin;
I'm quite envious that you've a pair of these. I had a pair of GS401A with the Chrome ends back in the late 70s/early 80s. Initially my 110watt monoblocks had to go back to the manufacturers to have the heatsinks beefed up as they kept tripping out the amps. I have very fond memories of these; very spacious I recall and absolutely fabulous when the volume is turned up. I think they might have been the best speakers I ever had.
Regards
Tony
That's very good to know, Tony. I'm really looking forward to firing them up, just a few hurdles to pass first ;)
If anyone's appetite's been whetted by this thread, have a look here:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121103280767&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en
http://contact.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ShowAllQuestions&iid=261211641213&requested=trundle01&redirect=0&frm=2047675&ShowASQAlways=1&ssPageName=PageAskSellerQuestion_VI
Here is my redesigned crossover. I think I'm going to get new air-cored inductors and build new crossovers complete.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7292/8718724214_592c68e809_b.jpg
Rare Bird
06-05-2013, 21:58
I thought you would Martin that rats nest would have me loosing sleep for a month, i suspect your the same? :D
As the outsides of the terminal plates look a bit rough & that your omitting the fuses. maybe you could kindly ask Mark (YNWaN) if he could make you some replacements to your design out of Acrylic!
You're right, Andr'e. I prefer the idea of starting it over and laying everything out nicely.
Greetings, Martin. You're schematic is badly wrong. so is the original:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/istari_knight9/Copy-2-of-GS401-Speaker-Crossover-Schematic-4_zps0ee9e0d5.jpg
Those capacitors at the input to the midrange filter make a dead short at high frequency.
My best guess is the 6.8uF goes AFTER the 0.3mH coil. It would probably be very good to put a 2.2 R resistor in front of the whole midrange filter, since it dips dangerously low near 3 ohms even in the original. The Gale was known as an amp killer anyway.
The treble filter is a straight lift from the Celestion Ditton 44, as it goes. Hope that helps, I like the Gales. :)
Thanks, Steve. Now that you point it out, it does look wrong. I shall trace the real one when I remove it.
Thanks again to Steve, I've revised my crossover diagram and replaced the original in post #52 for fear of anyone seeing and making use of it. The circuits in the Gale refurbishing website are incorrect except for the GS402, which shows the capacitor in the correct position (thanks to Andr'e for sending me the link).
I don't know which would have lasted longer, the caps or the Chord. My money would be on the Chord, but I wouldn't like to try it for real :lol:
Looking at the GS402 crossover here (http://0339436.netsolhost.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/GS-402-XO-Schematic.jpg), I'm intrigued by the resistor choices in this non-variable design. The mid has 6R4 resistors (10 in parallel with 18) giving a little more mid output than mine, and the tweeter has a fixed 1R2 giving some more treble energy.
I would expect the 402 to sound brighter as a result.
Do the US ones have the same bass units in them as the UK examples?
They seem to Dave, they look like the AR bass units and have a square magnet assembly.
istari_knight
07-05-2013, 13:26
There was an equivalent Peerless 8" as used in later Gale 301's but it also had a foam surround so any left alive will need re-foaming now too.
The crossover board was a right bugger to remove; those staples were designed for permanent fixture. That and the amount of glue used makes the board effectively unmodifiable. I doubt that I could rescue the inductors without destroying them; as it is, the coils are quite loose and only held in place by the cable ties. You can see at the top that one capacitor has exploded meaning that this crossover was already inoperative.
The pot tracks are in a bad way and I had to exercise them a lot in order to take measurements in their nominal centre positions. Interestingly, the mid adjuster is almost at max level while the tweeter is closer to centre position. This has helped me to finalise the circuit shown in post #52.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7364/8717617541_00609ea796_b.jpg
Crossover Shopping List
Resistors (all Mills MRA12)
0R82 x 2
3R9 x 2
6R2 x 2
Capacitors (all Supersound polypropylene)
4uF x 4
5.6uF x 2
6.8uF x 2
30uF x 2
Inductors (all Wilmslow air cored)
0.15mH x 2
0.3mH x 2
1.8mH x 2
3.3mH x 2
Speaker terminals x 2
Thin ply board 220 x 160mm x 2
Rare Bird
07-05-2013, 20:21
Id be tempted to try find some long thread terminals & use at least 1/2'' ply board.
I've gone for thinner ply, Andr'e, on the basis that it's thicker than the hardboard used. Long thread terminals already ordered ;)
Just for fun, Martin, here's my opinion of the Gale GS401A:
You can tell I am warming to this theme! Here's a mighty pretty loudspeaker, the Gale GS401A, that made everybody's jaws drop when playing Led Zeppelin's awesome Black Dog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2M6yV6mueg) at 70's HiFi shows... :D
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9307/galegs401a.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/196/galegs401a.jpg/)
This baby had punch like an Acoustic Research unit and slam and presence like a PA speaker and detail like a Quad electrostatic, and I was left plain wondering what magic stuff was hiding behind those grilles that sounded so GOOD! I'm gonna tell you... :cool:
Firstly, the bad: it was a hideous 4 ohm load for amplifiers and had a reputation for frying them. :eek:
The good: two AR derived foamed 8" paper units wired in parallel as in PA applications, with a simple AR type inductor for an overall second order rolloff to take care of the bass up to 500Hz.
Next was a 4" foamed paper Peerless midrange in a simple sealed plastic tube that went up to 5KHz. The midrange was a particular strength, and considered better than the dull and peaky KEF B110 5" bextrene midrange used in BBC type monitors. Secret sauce? Probably the resistive padding used on the drive unit and after the second order midrange filters. Early models had 4X 10R wirewound padding the midrange and flattening impedance.
http://imageshack.us/a/img202/8380/galegs401adrivers.jpg
From 5KHz, re-enter the excellent mylar domed Celestion HF2000 unit on a third order crossover. Often considered better than the KEF T27. Third order protects the tweeter from LF well, and acoustically matches a second order from the midrange. A lot to like there, and some ideas that found there way into the very fine and lively Wharfedale E70. You can read its history here (http://0339436.netsolhost.com/WordPress/gs401-speaker/).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-13.html#post2886588
Flippin' great speaker. :)
Well Steve, you've just whetted my appetite even more. I certainly remember them the first time around, when they were just unobtainium to an enthusiastic teenager. I remember those early ARs too (like the 3a) and they certainly had clout.
Amusing that people lust after the chrome ones; I'm quite happy I found a pair in the wood finish. They don't need to show off, let the sound do the talking!
I'm currently doing the layout for the new crossovers. All parts received so I'll template everything in order to produce a matching pair.
I wasn't happy with my idea of using brass panel pins as uprights/supports. I've therefore ordered some proper silver turret tags from Hi-Fi Collective and am waiting for them to arrive. Otherwise, I'm all ready for the crossover build and re-foam sections of my project. I just need more free time!
Redesigned crossover ready to attach speaker driver cables. All components hot-glued into place. I designed it to keep the four chokes as far away from each other as possible, and to isolate the sensitive midrange section on the left (treble top-right, bass bottom-right). Silver turret tags used for anchor points. 4mm sockets protrude on the other side, ready for fitment to the rear cabinet access hole.
I'm going to try to rescue the Gale label complete with serial number from the old crossovers.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3815/8783148293_be6ce38a72_b.jpg
That is a very neat job Martin... :clapclapclap:
The label was almost impossible to get off the old crossover (by cutting around the opening) and what actually peeled off was the top film layer of the original label, impossibly thin and wanting to just disintegrate in my hand. I did the best I could with it but this was about the fourth attempt using Aleen's Tacky Glue.
It looks better in real life than in the photo, but to be honest I was only trying to preserve the serial number to keep them honest. This is what will be viewable through the rear cabinet access hole when it's all been assembled in place.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/8793827759_f479369751_b.jpg
I've just noticed something: my two speakers are serial nos. 2284 and 2556, quite a difference. They are also constructed differently internally (though not externally). The chap I bought them from says he had them since new. Why the discrepancy? Could he have had one replaced under warranty?
Fascinating, as the cabinets definitely look like they were built by different people, even to the internal brace from rear to baffle being angled differently in the two speakers.
Great job so far Martin - I always wanted to try 401s but they have always been expensive s/h even 20 years ago. What is the situation with the tweeters? Are they working okay after all? If not it may be worth sourcing an original pair, evne though it is pricey the re-sale value of the speakers once finished would seem to warrant it.
What is the situation with the tweeters?
Delicate. One looks fine, the other has suffered from the top fibre mounting having warped. I've tried gluing it down and weighting it with an egg cup, to limited success. They both read fine resistance-wise (about 5.5 Ohms). I'm going to test fire the tweeters through the crossover over the weekend and have a listen. If they sound good, I'll leave them alone.
If I have to replace them, I'll probably go with the Seas direct replacement (H0737 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seas-19TFF-1-H0737-08-Tweeter-Celestion-HF2000-replacement-/160877392162?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speaker_Parts&hash=item25750a3122#ht_779wt_1178)) since sourcing a couple of decent HF2000 tweeters will cost more than I've paid for the whole project so far.
Sounds like they could be okay, which is good. :)
walpurgis
23-05-2013, 20:38
Looking good Martin, just one thing on the crossovers. Seeing those bare wires crossing over without insulation makes me feel uncomfortable. I'd definitely have put sleeving on those.
Rare Bird
23-05-2013, 20:42
The label was almost impossible to get off
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/8793827759_f479369751_b.jpg
Id get that redesigned omitting what you've removed get some screen printed on thick acrylic or formica, as long as it looks on the simular lines as the original.. You ought to have really done that before building the new board as to get the binding posts in a suitable uniform area.
Seeing those bare wires crossing over without insulation makes me feel uncomfortable.
I thought of that, Geoff, but the choke wires are enamel insulated and there is a height gap between them that you cannot see in the photo.
Id get that redesigned
I thought of omitting them altogether, Andr'e, but as I said I wanted to preserve the labels for authenticity and for the serial numbers. The appearance doesn't bother me as they're for the rear panel and I won't be looking at them every day!
Good news. I've just tested the tweeters on a lash-up with a crossover and they both work fine!
That is excellent news Martin :)
All driver holes now opened up with 6mm drill and M5 Tee nuts fitted so that I can use dome headed hex bolts. I'm also adding four holes to each bass driver to mount them with eight bolts each. I like well fastened drivers :)
Taken before the further holes for the bass drivers were drilled, cabinets with one coat of Danish Oil applied with fine wire wool, driver holes opened up and Tee nuts inserted.
There are a couple of small repairs I have yet to sort out with a little matching stain.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7377/8853736940_f42f52088d_b.jpg
Rare Bird
27-05-2013, 13:25
i don't mean to sound a pain in the arse Martin but i would have sourced some veneer edging strip for down the front edges cover up the chipboard showing! they look like American black walnut finish which is pretty easy to get hold of.
You can also buy that velco strip that's stapled to the baffle board if you fancy replacing it, or for a neater look you can get round velco..
looking good tho buddy.
There's no chipboard showing any more, Andr'e, that's wood filler. I'll stain it to match when I get around to the finishing touches.
I take your point about the Velcro strips, in fact I have to remove them if I'm going to give the baffle a coat of black.
Looking good Martin - while you have the oil out, that chair could do with a lick ;)
Ah yes, the garden furniture, indeed. I bloody *hate* teak oiling them and have left it a couple of years. I did the table last week, chairs still to be done...
walpurgis
06-06-2013, 20:45
Coming along nicely Martin. I bet you'll be delighted with them once they're up and running. They are a nice sounding speaker.
I've 'faked' wood grain on filler in the past using a very fine art brush and black and brown paint.
I've 'faked' wood grain on filler in the past using a very fine art brush and black and brown paint.
Ah, good man, I was hoping someone would tell me it can be done.
Getting very close to refoaming the drivers out in the garden (you don't want all that tar-like mess in the house). Good weather for it now.
walpurgis
06-06-2013, 22:54
tar-like mess
What the heck are you going to use Martin?
As I've said (often) 'Aleene's Tacky Glue' is the best!
Rare Bird
06-06-2013, 23:02
Getting very close to refoaming the drivers out in the garden (you don't want all that tar-like mess in the house).
Aye don't drop a ballerk like i did, i changed the gooey idler wheels & pinch roller in my Ferrograph Reel + Reel machine, i only went & dropped the pinch roller on the carpet whilst cleaning the dinner table off. Absolutly destroyed the carpet. That little job cost me £100.00 for the new wheels + £500.00 for a new carpet :steam:
The idler wheels of my Ferrograph 632 machine have also gone 'gooey'. I have a new set, but can't see how to change them. Do you know of a web site that can provide instructions on how to do this?
Rare Bird
07-06-2013, 00:04
PM
What the heck are you going to use Martin?
Yes, I'll be using the Aleene's alright. Have you ever done a refoam? The crap that the old foam surrounds turns into over the years is so horrible, rubbery and sticky that it behaves like tar and you do NOT want to get it on your carpet!
walpurgis
07-06-2013, 09:15
Have you ever done a refoam? The crap that the old foam surrounds turns into over the years is so horrible, rubbery and sticky that it behaves like tar and you do NOT want to get it on your carpet!
Yes, I've done a number of surround replacements, using contact adhesives sometimes, particularly when it's a plastic cone bonding to a rubber surround. But Aleene's seems best for paper/pulp cones. The sticky old surround residue just takes a lot of patient scraping to remove. And yes, I did get a couple of little bits on the carpet. I just plucked them off and cleaned up with paint brush cleaner, followed by soapy water.
A quick update as I've been away for a while so not a great deal of progress to report, however all four bass drivers are pretty much prepared and ready to take the replacement roll surrounds. All your warnings were heeded and the work was done in the garden, which was wise as the nasty tar-like stuff that came off really did stick to everything, as well as continually fouling my chisel.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/9516959495_851e94f79c_b.jpg
I'll be mounting the surrounds shortly and completing the second crossover soon. Not long to go now before firing them up. I'm getting pretty excited!
istari_knight
15-08-2013, 20:29
You must have been busy ! I'd have died of anticipation by now :D
How did you clean the old foam off ? I find nail varnish remover brings the baskets up like new.
I used pure acetone, but even with that it was pretty hard. Will give them a final going over before the new surrounds go on.
istari_knight
15-08-2013, 21:48
Ah even better :thumbsup:
Having sat there & done 4, one after the other myself I can sympathise ! First one's interesting, second one's fun, third one's boring & the fourth is tedious :D ...Aching fingers just make it harder :(
2nd crossover completed and both tested fine. Just the four bass drivers to re-foam now and a repair to one tweeter. Should be about a day's work left.
I made good progress today. I have virtually finished re-foaming the four bass drivers, they are being left alone for the glue to fully set.
Meanwhile, the baffles needed more work as someone saw fit to staple Velcro strips on them to fasten the front grills. I found grill mounting holes under them on one speaker but not the other?! So Velcro and staples removed and I'll worry about mounting the grills later. I also sprayed the baffles in matt black to improve their look before the drivers go back in. Finally, the dodgy tweeter has had its face glued to properly anchor the coil and dome. I'm still hoping that it will perform well as I wish to avoid sourcing new tweeters.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7297/9821032296_4d64e03b6e_b.jpg
The Grand Wazoo
19-09-2013, 18:10
The project is moving on Martin - that driver looks good.
istari_knight
19-09-2013, 21:59
Looking forward to seeing them all back together :eyebrows:
I sorted out a pair of HF2000 recently that had [I think] the same issue as your dodgy one where the card is peeling away from the chassis ? I just superglued it down luckily it worked out fine with a perfectly aligned VC so fingers crossed you can save it !
Good to know, James. I found a napkin ring that was the perfect circle around the dome, but clearing it, and glued the card down with the ring and a very heavy weight on it. The voicecoil appears to still have free movement so I live in hope.
Rare Bird
20-09-2013, 09:38
I would have sprayed around the edge of that basket black before aplying the foam surround!
Reckon I'll make a circular mask and just spray them afterwards. I don't want paint to go on the cones.
Offering up a crossover and checking my internal cable run lengths. There are more coats of black to apply to the baffle, just waiting for no rain. And yes, I still have to vacuum the insides out!
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2858/9851379553_69db296249_b.jpg
The Grand Wazoo
21-09-2013, 10:04
Looks good Martin. Which cable are you using there?
Rare Bird
21-09-2013, 10:18
Looks good Martin. Which cable are you using there?
Dunno but i spy some Kimber 'PSB-J' cable in the background..
Looks good Martin. Which cable are you using there?
It's Black Rhodium Twist. You should have seen the poxy thin stuff that was originally used!
Dunno but i spy some Kimber 'PSB-J' cable in the background..
Well spotted that man! Left over from a previous project.
Reminds me, I'm using Ruth's borrowed dining table. There had better be no marks and I shall polish it to within an inch of its life or else there'll be trouble!
The Grand Wazoo
21-09-2013, 10:23
Ah, OK thanks.
The Grand Wazoo
21-09-2013, 10:25
Yes, that's important if you don't want a rolling pin shaped groove in the top of yer bonce! My Genexxa LX5 project gave our kitchen table some new 'patina'......OK, scratches!
Those Gales are coming along a treat Martin, a very good job you are doing there sir if I may say so :)
Thanks, guys. It'll look a lot better when it comes together, not long now. I have some work to do with the grills which are not in a great state - not that I normally use grills.
Both crossovers wired up and tested. I'll attach the draught excluder strips and screw them into place tonight, which leaves only the lambs' wool stuffing and driver connection.
Both crossovers wired up and tested. I'll attach the draught excluder strips and screw them into place tonight, which leaves only the lambs' wool stuffing and driver connection.
....and then you will have two of the smallest, warmest, most thoroughly draft proofed and musical rooms in the house... :D
So THAT's what I've been doing wrong all these years! How do I get into both simultaneously for stereo?
Now for that neat trick you are going to need a discombobulator and a sonic screwdriver... :lol:
Crossovers installed...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5549/9910624323_1afdd0e003_b.jpg
All ready for the lambs' wool...
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7405/9910544094_c7fb6fd6f2_b.jpg
Lambs' wool stuffing done. Why is there more left over than came out of the things?! I had a problem with the length of my hex bolts when trying to secure the midrange drivers, so longer bolts are on order from eBay. I have some long slotted bolts and will use those in a test full assembly tonight. It's about time I power them up and have a listen.
The Grand Wazoo
24-09-2013, 07:42
Good stuff(ing) Martin!
One thing's for sure, that's that your power amp is up to the job - I think a good few people must have bought 401s and been disappointed with what they've heard because they used a 'normal' amp.
Yes, the Chord gives me hope for a good, tight, sound Chris. Driving those four woofers and maintaining control must be a bit of a load on a standard amp of 40-50W output. Thinking back, I've never owned a pair of infinite baffle speakers and I'm hoping to hear something a little different.
The Grand Wazoo
24-09-2013, 08:37
Good infinite baffles have that snap to the bass that's hard to match any other way.
walpurgis
24-09-2013, 09:32
Good infinite baffles have that snap to the bass that's hard to match any other way.
I'll go along with that. I've not heard the 401s for many years, but remember a sound that was not entirely unlike the Yamaha NS1000 for tautness and detail over the whole range. The HF2000 is actually sweeter sounding than the Yam tweeter and incredibly revealing.
istari_knight
25-09-2013, 16:31
Martin, it could be worth asking this fella if he still has the tweeter/s ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/babacat1/m.html?item=190913050450&pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpea kers&hash=item2c734df752&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562
He's stripped a pair of 401's for parts - I presume the tweeters were knackered but you only want one of the mesh grilles. I'm still on the lookout for you regardless...
Thanks, James! I'll ask him.
Ah bugger, he's short by a grill too!
istari_knight
25-09-2013, 18:44
Typical :( The search goes on !
... Have you had a listen to them yet ?!
Not yet - I'm having problems with bolts, Tee-nuts and hole alignment. A handy reamer is putting things right. I think the Gale 'craftsmen' were a little sloppy in this respect, they used wood screws which are not precise and each cabinet is a little different. I'm taking my time and doing it right.
Ok, both tweeters and both midranges in place and bolted up with final socket-head bolts.
Why did I think it was a good idea to use all 8 holes for each woofer?! I've had a few incidents of 5-6 bolts going in and then a Tee-nut gets pushed off. Now I have a new technique of putting all 8 bolts through the driver chassis holes and offering them all up to the holes, 'snagging' each bolt into the thread very gently. Once I've achieved that, I can tighten them up safely. One woofer in, three to go...
You need patience for a job like this. No rushing.
After playing find-the-Tee-nut several times, all bolts are home and tightened. I am pleased that both speakers have good air tightness - push a bass driver in and the other pops out and then slowly returns. Just the right leakage for a closed box infinite baffle design. There is quite a lot of cabinet finishing and polishing to go, but needs must and I need to hear them.
Running low level signals in reveals that all drivers are operating fine. Time soon to fire the big amp into them...
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2827/9969856795_f8ef247627_b.jpg
The Grand Wazoo
27-09-2013, 19:21
Oooh-er - looks fab Martin!
Here they are on a pair of stands playing music. I have mirror-imaged them to get an idea of their stereo performance. I know that classic 401As were used horizontally on chrome stands, but I don't go a lot on the ungainly look and a very wide horizontal baffle. In any case, these 401Cs look better in an upright pose.
So you want to know how they sound? Let me get some welly into them first to loosen them up :)
I tell you what, though; that Peerless midrange driver is a peach.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5476/9969856855_9c93e4a6ca_b.jpg
They are looking very smart Martin, well done you :D
Not bad for £38.69 on eBay 'breaking for parts', eh? Ok, I've spent a fair amount on the crossover components but they were blown and required rebuilding anyway, so I created new ones. Otherwise, it's glue, bolts and oil/polish, mostly.
I've put a few hours on the 401Cs and the bass drivers continue to loosen up slightly while the crossover beds in. These Gales are in no way warm and cuddly or 'classic' in the worst traditions. They are punchy, wide open and remarkably detailed. They do boogie very well and catch the rhythms in music infectiously. There is no tonal slant as is so evident on many speakers of that vintage. Playing a variety of material it's obvious very quickly that the quality of the midrange sets them on a pedestal. That Peerless driver is good. I rescued mine with some Aileen's tacky glue rather than re-foam them, which was advised only if really necessary. I'm glad I've kept them original as they sing so very well. Female voice soars and is free of the cabinets. In fact, they image very well with tight focus but not as much depth as I'm used to. The bass is very tight and belies the size of the cabinets. It digs deep and can belt out an impressive volume while still holding things together. I think the good internal cabinet bracing and overall rigidity of the box helps a lot here. The tweeters are excellent in that they don't at any point bring attention to themselves, they just extend rather well and sound clean and detailed. My Chord power amp has no trouble driving the difficult load, exactly as I expected it to.
It's clear that Ira Gale chose his drivers with care. I wonder how he came across the AR woofers? Perhaps from hearing a pair of 4as? Whatever, they make a seamless combination in a cabinet that would seem on reflection a little small for the job. Good bit of design work there.
Comparing the 401Cs with my big Ushers is very unfair, there's 35 years of technology between them. However, I do it only because the Gales are so very good on an absolute level. The midrange of the Gales ultimately shows a little boxiness - they are slightly cabinet-bound compared with the superb, open and cabinet-free nature of the beryllium inverted dome Usher driver. It's testimony to Peerless that their midrange driver comes so close. The soundstage on the Gales is impressively wide but depth takes a hit. That could be down to the angular box nature of the Gale cabinets, I'm guessing. Bass ultimately doesn't extend down as far, obviously. Finally, they are not as dynamic as the Ushers, which often surprise me when setting a level and then having my head blown off. Then again, nothing I've heard are as dynamic as the Ushers. The Gales kick well enough, impressive for their size. So all in all, the Gales come off exceedingly well.
I can honestly say that I haven't heard many medium sized speakers of any vintage that sound as good as these restored Gales and I am pleased as punch that I found them. They will form a second system when I move house and will become my official show speakers :)
Rare Bird
18-10-2013, 14:43
Hi Martin
They look good :D
They sound pretty good too, Andr'e. I've decided that I will refoam the midrange drivers at some point as I feel there is more to come from the midrange. Otherwise, a little tidying up of my repairs and a proper polish and they'll be good to show.
As for the rest of my gear, I know you just want to lurk until I've gone and then collect it all for yourself :lol:
istari_knight
20-10-2013, 12:44
You got those grills on yet !? :D
walpurgis
20-10-2013, 13:15
I've decided that I will refoam the midrange drivers at some point as I feel there is more to come from the midrange.
Have you considered enlarging the rear cavity the mids drive into. That may reduce the boxiness you mentioned.
If I recall that particular driver has a rear 'compartment' of about the volume of two coffee mugs and could do with being larger to avoid the cavity honk. It may also help to very lightly re-dope the cones (with Aleene's and a drop of water), bearing in mind that this adds a little mass to the cones and will very slightly reduce the driver's sensitivity (maybe usefully).
istari_knight
20-10-2013, 14:30
When I had IMF's with what look to be the same mid's I refoamed them but there was still a little 'boxy' or 'cupped hands' colouration - It was suggested to me at the time to replace the yellow foam in the mid enclosure with lambs wool... I never tried it though.
Thanks, both.
I've already treated the surrounds with diluted Aleen's. Also, since the mids have their own compartments, it would be a big job to create new larger compartments in the existing cabinets.
However, I shall investigate lambswool in the existing housing, as well as refoaming the drivers.
The Grand Wazoo
20-10-2013, 18:58
Would you like me to send you some wool Martin?
I have some left over from a project. It was donated by a kind and generous AoS member!
Would you like me to send you some wool Martin?
:rfl:
I will have to see what I can get hold of, as it's such a small quantity. Perhaps cotton wool could work?
You got those grills on yet !? :D
They're on at the moment, but I never listen with the grills on ;)
Rare Bird
20-10-2013, 20:09
I replaced the sponge in my speekas for wool, however i have a large card tube the full depth of the cabinet which is the mid range enclosure, the is empty, no stuffin..
In a 401, Andr'e? How did you ensure the tube is sealed without removing the front baffle (which I think is glued in place)?
Rare Bird
21-10-2013, 07:28
No not in the '401' in the castles..I was just saying my Mid range tube {Enclosure} is empty..
Ah, ok. I tend to think that more stuffing is required in the Gale mid enclosure, not less. That should smooth out the slight cuppiness in the midrange. It won't take too long to try, but I think I'll re-foam them too.
bergui45
02-04-2020, 09:47
hello,
I recently bought a secund pair of Gale GS 401A with the bass drivers needing new surrounds...
In 2008 i rebuild the crossovers of my first pair bought in 1976, with parts got from Wilmslow...
My first pair is still sounding brilliant despite the fact it has FOCAL woofers instead of CTS and also DYNAUDIO Tweeters instead of Celestion...
I saw the modified Crossover and i wanted to know if this modified design will ensure better results?
My first pair had several drivers issues due to a Harman Kardon CIT16 power amp... After this amp was replaced first by a LIN LK280_Spark and after a LINN 2250 and after an Mc225 valve amp then recently rplaced by an ARC D79A more powerfull the speakers never had any issue with the original crossover's design with Supersound caps from Wilmslow.
So please let me know what's my best bet?
Regards
Bernard
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