View Full Version : Maggie
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155
Auld Maggie, finally pan bread.
walpurgis
08-04-2013, 12:22
Good!
Rare Bird
08-04-2013, 12:22
now now geoff thats not nice, it was only her job at the end of the day..
Guys, given the recent 'shenanigans' over political issues, let's play nice! I'll be watching closely... ;)
Marco.
Shows just how mortal we all are, even the great.
Love her of hate her, at least she stood up for what she believed was 'right' for the country.
Wakefield Turntables
08-04-2013, 13:48
Yep, please dont stir this up to be some political shit-fest, the last one was boring enough.
Hope the funeral is a private company run affair.
Would hate to think she would be relying on a state hand out.
Thatcher may be gone but her legacy lives on. I'm sure she is very happy (That's all the time and effort she's getting out of me)... :rolleyes:
She wasn't a nice person and it was never necessary to like her. However, she was a great leader (before she went a little off the rails) and she brought this country off its knees by breaking the criminally short-sighted unions.
No need to comment, I won't be saying anything else about it.
chris@panteg
08-04-2013, 14:37
She wasn't a nice person and it was never necessary to like her. However, she was a great leader (before she went a little off the rails) and she brought this country off its knees by breaking the criminally short-sighted unions.
No need to comment, I won't be saying anything else about it.
Fair points Martin , I was never a fan but a remarkable woman no doubts there !!
Nobody ever got the better of her in the house .
losenotaminute
08-04-2013, 18:47
This is what I like about AOS, hardly any political nonsense posts following the death of Lady T. Respect to fellow forum members, let's keep it that way and show we can be one fairly civilised corner of the net.
Some of the stuff on Wigwam is vile and pathetic, but at least when the dealers join in I know who I shan't be doing business with ! :lol:
Mrs T was a "love her or loathe her" character, I think, but regardless of your political persuasion (if you have one) it is hard to deny the impact she had on British politics and the nation, some of it good, some of it bad.
I do abhor people "dancing on graves" though (not that I've been looking on any other sites, but I can imagine!) Regardless of what she did or didn't do in her career she was still somebody's Mum, Sister, Grandmother or friend - and it is always sad when someone you love passes on. :(
I divided Maggie into two separate identities:
1. The politician, who at the end of the day managed to climb her way to the top, which given the gender handicap prevaling at the time was no mean feat.
2. The woman, whom I wouldn't have banged if she was the last female on earth and I take my hat off to Dennis for daring to go where I would not :lol:
PFM is full of grave-dancing pinkos, God knows who they'll hate now Maggie T's gone.
The Grand Wazoo
08-04-2013, 21:43
The most remarkable thing about her death is that it seems to have allowed the Korean nuclear scare to have been resolved, there are no more problems with the world economic climate and the Tories must have done a U-turn on their 'we're all in it together, but the northerners go first' disability allowance policy.
Apparently there is nothing else going on in the world.
At all.
Stratmangler
08-04-2013, 21:46
The most remarkable thing about her death is that it seems to have allowed the Korean nuclear scare to have been resolved, there are no more problems with the world economic climate and the Tories must have done a U-turn on their disability allowance policy.
Apparently there is nothing else going on in the world.
At all.
Man City beat Man Utd at The Swamp Old Trafford tonight :ner:
Stratmangler
08-04-2013, 21:51
PFM
Who?
PFM is full of grave-dancing pinkos, God knows who they'll hate now Maggie T's gone.
It always amazes me how Tony is willing to host such bile. Some of the comments there are quite disgraceful, and one can scarcely believe that they've been uttered by supposedly well-adjusted human beings. It's the same on Wigwam. Some of those idiots need a damned good slap.
Marco.
Such is the passion of a lot of people to the damage this woman did to a lot of the UK it's hardly surprising.
A lot of of places have never recovered from what her lot did.
The Grand Wazoo
08-04-2013, 21:59
Stu,
For those people and more (me included), it was fine to celebrate her loss of office, but to dance on her grave is wrong.
Who?
Teh pink fish media forum. (Technically, it's pfm, PFM being an Italian prog rock group.)
Such is the passion of a lot of people to the damage this woman did to a lot of the UK it's hardly surprising.
A lot of of places have never recovered from what her lot did.
Yes I get that, Stu, but it still doesn't excuse some of the sheer bile being spouted by some mindless morons, hiding from behind the safety of their computers.
At the end of the day, a human being (and someone's mother) has died. What about the grief her son and daughter, not to mention, grandchildren are going through? I'm no Thatcher fan, but some of the comments on her death I've read elsewhere are appalling and way OTT.
Marco.
Stu,
For those people and more (me included), it was fine to celebrate her loss of office, but to dance on her grave is wrong.
Maybe she'll thwart the grave-dancers by being buried at sea.
Stratmangler
08-04-2013, 22:14
Teh pink fish media forum. (Technically, it's pfm, PFM being an Italian prog rock group.)
Who?
Who?
A pop group from the 1960s, with Pete Townshend on guitar, Roger Daltrey on vocals, John Entwistle on bass, and Keith Moon on drums.
Stratmangler
08-04-2013, 22:21
A pop group from the 1960s, with Pete Townshend on guitar, Roger Daltrey on vocals, John Entwistle on bass, and Keith Moon on drums.
That would be The Who.
Who the f**k are PFM?
The Grand Wazoo
08-04-2013, 22:22
Ask Andre.
Clue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premiata_Forneria_Marconi)
That would be The Who.
Who the f**k are PFM?
http://www.pfmpfm.it/eng/
Stratmangler
08-04-2013, 22:26
http://www.pfmpfm.it/eng/
I shall attempt to explore their musical output.
They'll have to wait until the Porcupine Tree "In Absentia" has finished ;)
Rare Bird
08-04-2013, 22:40
Try not to go into 1975 ;)
A sad day for anyone who belives in oprtunity for the poor.
A REAL HERO of mine, she brought Englands GDP up 25 percent and helped end the cold war.
God rest her good soul.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw
Great Britain has lost a champion, sad so few realize that she only wanted to restore independence and pride of her countrymen.
Probably meany don't remember how hopeless young people felt in the 70's, Both Maggie and Ronnie worked together and ended the cold war.
She restored Englands pride in the War of the Falkland Islands.
She is truly an inspiration in my life,and I am not even British.
It is not easy when other politicians are promising cake and cookies to be the one to say,you really need peas,carrots and broccoli.
Sometimes being a champion of the people is not giving in to what they want but giving them a way to achieve and build on there own,the gift of self worth and accomplishment.
She was tuff as nails, and had to be to make the changes she did, and she didn't put up with any platitude from the House.
Margret Thatcher kicked arss !
And deserves a lot of respect.
I think it's pissy , to hate someone because they where successful and believed anyone could achieve great things given a chance, after all she was only the daughter of a grocer who went on to lead a country out of fiscal wreckage spiritual bondage at a time when woman couldn't dream of doing such things.
chris@panteg
09-04-2013, 07:52
Pleased for you Jeff if she was such an inspiration .
Not for me though !! One thing is certain , this nation is divided ! Just looking around the net at opinions , the hate filled bile is not confined to PFM and the wigwam , and from both sides.
I hope the Scots see there opportunity next year .
Margaret Thatchers government devastated this country and had it not been for the Falklands War she would not have been voted back in. If the Argies had only kept their hands in their pockets they may well have negotiated their way back onto the Falklands eventually.
I'm trying very hard to be polite here but I can tell you this, I will not be mourning Maggies passing. Instead of watching her funeral I will be thinking about the thousands who suffered after she destroyed their lives. She's also got a bloody cheek, she requested a state funeral FFS. It will be a state funeral in all but name apparently as it will be similar in scale to Diana's, and who's going to pay for it? That will be us then, oh the sad irony of it all :steam:
I am expecting some very entertaining demonstrations during her funeral, maybe it will be worth watching after all... :cool:
Oh yeah, almost forgot: Congratulations to Man City, well done lads ;)
An interesting perspective on the subject, Jeff. I respect your point of view. Removing Thatcher from the equation, for a second, I 100% agree with these sentiments, regardless of whom or what they relate to:
Sometimes being a champion of the people is not giving in to what they want but giving them a way to achieve and build on there own,the gift of self worth and accomplishment.
What I always admired about the American mentality is the way that they applaud success and achievement in life, and reward it accordingly, and how major achievers are praised. It's the championing of success and achievement that ultimately breeds winners in our society and creates opportunity, and in the long term, improves the status of our nation.
Whereas in Britain, there exists a tendency to resent success, and any wealth gained from it, which in many cases has been hard-earned, and certainly at one time, perhaps before Thatcher came to power, there was a desire to stifle opportunity and free-thinking, simply to keep, especially financially less well off working class people, downtrodden and all at the same level.
Even these days, there is an underlying feeling in this country of resenting those who seek to better themselves, especially when it is actually achieved, and I deeply abhor that mentality.
Ask yourself this question: when you notice that your next door neighbour has just bought a nice new car, improved their home, all paid for through honest hard work, or has been rewarded in some way through gaining a better education, is your first reaction one of respect and admiration for them or jealousy and resentment? If it's the later, you're a total waste of space.
Nowadays, in the UK, people are generally much more entrepreneurial in their outlook, and that has to be a good thing. I'm not sure how much of that was down to Margaret Thatcher, but she certainly instilled that belief in some people, and in many to their considerable benefit. That has to be worth something.
Marco.
It is interesting how some politicians are viewed more broadly positively outside their own country. Another who springs to mind is Clinton. Like Thatcher there's strongly polarised opinion of him in his home country.
I wonder what'll happen when Scargill dies......
I'm with Chris and Marco in saying that my time for jubilation was when she left Downing Street for the last time not now and for anyone to pour such vitriol onto someone who was little more than a frail old lady is truly reprehensible.
However much I disagreed with SOME of her judgements, I still cannot fail to admire her guts and determination in tackling some of the big issues that were prevalent at the time. As an example, those of you 'lucky' enough to own a British Leyland car will understand that their cars were light years behind in the design, quality and reliability of cars from around the world. It had very little to do with the workforce, but more a case of severe misguided dogma by management that only a radical wake up call would cure. I don't think she succeeded there in that case and maybe not a good example, but the essence is there of what she was trying to achieve.
chris@panteg
09-04-2013, 08:39
You really see it that way Marco ? That's not the impression round here but you do live in North wales where there is still a seething resentment to any outsiders , especially rich folk from England buying up second homes .
I admire people who work hard a build themselves up , my brother's father in law who recently passed , built his own construction company and owned several racehorses , he started from nothing .
Total admiration and respect from me ! Didn't care for the stuffed fox in his hallway though .
chris@panteg
09-04-2013, 08:43
It is interesting how some politicians are viewed more broadly positively outside their own country. Another who springs to mind is Clinton. Like Thatcher there's strongly polarised opinion of him in his home country.
I wonder what'll happen when Scargill dies......
I like Clinton , but he did lie under oath !
I detested Scargill .
I like Clinton , but he did lie under oath !
And he did some other interesting things!
I detested Scargill .
Let's face it, Scargill was responsible for much of the making of Maggie.
chris@panteg
09-04-2013, 08:54
And he did some other interesting things!
Let's face it, Scargill was responsible for much of the making of Maggie.
I agree , it ran deep ! The 1973 -74 strike that brought down heath had a profound influence., she must have made a vow to destroy the NUM , this to some was her crowning achievement .
Audioman
09-04-2013, 08:55
A sad day for anyone who belives in oprtunity for the poor.
A REAL HERO of mine, she brought Englands GDP up 25 percent and helped end the cold war.
God rest her good soul.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw
Great Britain has lost a champion, sad so few realize that she only wanted to restore independence and pride of her countrymen.
Probably meany don't remember how hopeless young people felt in the 70's, Both Maggie and Ronnie worked together and ended the cold war.
She restored Englands pride in the War of the Falkland Islands.
She is truly an inspiration in my life,and I am not even British.
It is not easy when other politicians are promising cake and cookies to be the one to say,you really need peas,carrots and broccoli.
Sometimes being a champion of the people is not giving in to what they want but giving them a way to achieve and build on there own,the gift of self worth and accomplishment.
She was tuff as nails, and had to be to make the changes she did, and she didn't put up with any platitude from the House.
Margret Thatcher kicked arss !
And deserves a lot of respect.
I think it's pissy , to hate someone because they where successful and believed anyone could achieve great things given a chance, after all she was only the daughter of a grocer who went on to lead a country out of fiscal wreckage spiritual bondage at a time when woman couldn't dream of doing such things.
Blimey Jeff, I think your undying love for Margaret Thatcher exceeds even that of the Tory right wing with the exception of Bill Cash MP. It does show though how widely regarded she was abroad and rightly so. I think over here her supporters including myself respected her rather than liked her.
A great politician though as she actually believed in something and did what she thought was right. The unions were out of control and holding the country to ransom. Remember Scargill had undermined governments before. Old industries that were economically unviable had to go or change. It's untrue Thatcher destroyed industry. Actually she helped prop up and modernise British Leyland. It was the incompetence of Blair and Brown that led to the eventual closure of Rover. Vastly more industry closed since 1997 due to the lack of interest and understanding of New Labour. Globalisation used as the excuse.
What other politician would have had the courage to stand up to the Argentinian Invaders? I suppose she was lucky in having enemies such as Scargill, General Galtieri and Michael Foot who ensured she had large election victories. She made mistakes such as the community charge but idiots blaming her for the banking crisis are ridiculous. Over 20 years for her successors to act and adjust legislation before a disaster occurred. Anyone remember queues to get a mortgage or the £50 foreign holiday spending limit? Generally she changed the country for the better although there were some losers.
The people omitting bile on other forums disgust me as well as those holding street parties. The former should be banned from their respective forums and the later feel a dose of police batten or water cannon. Some of the idiots on PFM and HFWW have done quite well as a result of Thatcher. I will be noting which of them are dealers and avoid ever doing business with them.
RIP Maggie.
Hi Chris,
You really see it that way Marco ? That's not the impression round here but you do live in North wales where there is still a seething resentment to any outsiders , especially rich folk from England buying up second homes.
That mentality doesn't exist as much now as it once did (thank goodness), but it's still very prevalent in the poorest areas of our country, where often trying to better oneself is treated with the utmost contempt, simply because some people want you to remain at the same level as they are. They don't want you to escape from their humdrum and downtrodden existence, so they keep trying to drag you down with them.
I know of many real-life examples of this, gained mostly from my time living up in Glasgow, certainly not from the area I lived in, but through my travels around various parts of the country, in my line of work, mixing with people from all different areas and social backgrounds.
However you cut it, we don't celebrate success and achievement as much as our American friends. Even when it comes to sport, we champion hapless losers, such as Eddie the bloody Eagle!! :doh: :rolleyes:
I admire people who work hard a build themselves up , my brother's father in law who recently passed , built his own construction company and owned several racehorses , he started from nothing .
I totally agree. I always admire and respect self-made people, and as a successful businessman myself, I can relate to that.
There will always be people who are unlucky or unfortunate in life, or just plain underprivileged, and they should always be supported in the right way, but it should never be done at the expense of stifling creating opportunity and success for those who have the gumption and self-motivation to get off their backsides, lose the 'woe is me' mentality, and make things happen to better themselves!
'Go-getters' and achievers in life will always earn my respect more than the 'woe is me, everyone's against me, and I'll never amount to anything' brigade.
Marco.
chris@panteg
09-04-2013, 09:09
But Marco do you agree that people should be asked to pay for their mistakes borne out of greed and recklessness !! Or do you think they should be protected ? And the rest of us should foot the bill ?
I don't .
No, Chris, I most certainly don't! As ever, there's a balance to be had.
The thing, for me, with politics (and most other things in life), especially religion, is that I'm totally against all extremes. It's always the extremists on either side, and their views, that cause the biggest problems!
Marco.
chris@panteg
09-04-2013, 09:46
I'm of the same mind Marco , just in case anyone thinks or suspects I am of the loony left persuasion ?
I most certainly am not ! Slightly left of center yes but I hate extremism of the left or of the right .
But I have to say Maggie was very much of the latter !!! Though she did earnestly believe it was right .
An interesting perspective on the subject, Jeff. I respect your point of view. Removing Thatcher from the equation, for a second, I 100% agree with these sentiments, regardless of whom or what they relate to:
What I always admire about the American mentality is the way that they applaud success and achievement in life, and reward it accordingly, and how achievers are praised. It's the championing of success and achievement that ultimately breeds winners in our society and creates opportunity, and in the long term, improves the status of our nation.
Whereas in Britain, there exists a tendency to resent success, and any wealth gained from it, which in many cases has been hard-earned, and certainly at one time, perhaps before Thatcher came to power, there was a desire to stifle opportunity and free-thinking, simply to keep, especially financially less well off working class people, downtrodden and all at the same level.
Even these days, there is an underlying feeling in this country of resenting those who seek to better themselves, especially when it is actually achieved, and I deeply abhor that mentality.
Ask yourself this question: when you notice that your next door neighbour has just bought a nice new car, improved their home, all paid for through honest hard work, or has been rewarded in some way through gaining a better education, is your first reaction one of respect and admiration for them or jealousy and resentment?
If it's the later, you're a total waste of space.
Marco.
Could not have put it better
Rare Bird
09-04-2013, 10:05
A sad day for anyone who belives in oprtunity for the poor.
A REAL HERO of mine, she brought Englands GDP up 25 percent and helped end the cold war.
God rest her good soul.
Great Britain has lost a champion, sad so few realize that she only wanted to restore independence and pride of her countrymen.
Probably meany don't remember how hopeless young people felt in the 70's, Both Maggie and Ronnie worked together and ended the cold war.
She restored Englands pride in the War of the Falkland Islands.
She is truly an inspiration in my life,and I am not even British.
It is not easy when other politicians are promising cake and cookies to be the one to say,you really need peas,carrots and broccoli.
Sometimes being a champion of the people is not giving in to what they want but giving them a way to achieve and build on there own,the gift of self worth and accomplishment.
She was tuff as nails, and had to be to make the changes she did, and she didn't put up with any platitude from the House.
Margret Thatcher kicked arss !
And deserves a lot of respect.
I think it's pissy , to hate someone because they where successful and believed anyone could achieve great things given a chance, after all she was only the daughter of a grocer who went on to lead a country out of fiscal wreckage spiritual bondage at a time when woman couldn't dream of doing such things.
:thumbsup: Especially an end to the Falklands fiasco in around a month was it?
Covenant
09-04-2013, 10:08
Working in Liverpool in the 1980's, I could see the dismal prospects of many northern families and so understand the bitterness felt by so many people. I do admire Michael Hesteltine though. He redeveloped the dockland area and parts of Liverpool 8 at a time when other politicians were talking about a 'managed decline'. He kept me in a job anyway.
Jerry, I was still a schoolie in the 80s and had very little recollection. Why was she so hated in the Liverpool and the north? Was it justified?
Wakefield Turntables
09-04-2013, 15:21
Jerry, I was still a schoolie in the 80s and had very little recollection. Why was she so hated in the Liverpool and the north? Was it justified?
She was hated in the North, well Yorkshire (thats where I come from) for closing all the mines. We had an extremely good standard of living and then it was simply removed. Whole areas went tits up and have never recovered. Personally I can see both sides of the argument about Thatcher. She did some good stuff and some shite stuff. Me, personally, I do give a f**k. I've always had the attitude that I can achieve anything that I put my mind to. I dont like people who whinge or dont try to get on in life, but thats just me. ;)
Covenant
09-04-2013, 15:25
There was massive unemployment in Liverpool and the city was very run down due to lack of investment. Further north the coal mining towns of Lancashire and Yorkshire were (and still are) decimated by almost 100% closure of the pits.
Liverpool benefited from government investment which lead to significant private investment and growth but the coal mining towns were largely allowed to decay. The unions fought to save jobs but lost.
I can see both sides of the political argument but I do think more investment in manufacturing and less service/banking industry investment (largely down South) might have meant more people in employment. I also think it's true that the unions were too strong and caused chaos to the economy. There are two sides to every argument.
Thanks Andrew and Jerry.
Let's hope all parties can move forward and get on with their lives. As you said, it does no one any good being vengeful.
I've always had the attitude that I can achieve anything that I put my mind to. I dont like people who whinge or dont try to get on in life, but thats just me. ;)
+1, and me!
Some able-bodied people, in undoubtedly underprivileged and difficult circumstances, unfortunately simply resign themselves to failure or fall back on the benefits system, rather than try their utmost to drag themselves out of the mire by any legal method possible (cleaning toilets or sweeping roads if they have to) - you do what you have to do to earn a living and survive!
However, the former lack the self-motivation or 'get-up-and-go' to try and change their circumstances for the better, or are just bone idle. *That* is the biggest problem!!
My view, therefore, is that the MOST government help should go to people who demonstrate a willingness to improve their circumstances. You have to reward those MOST who are willing to put something back into the country, and become an asset, rather than those who are keener simply to take or just accept their fate, and are forever a liability, otherwise you just feed the malaise.
Then there are self-made millionaires, who've arrived at that position, from once having had next to nothing... *Those* are the people I respect the most, but I appreciate that not everyone has the inner strength of character or necessary skills to achieve that.
Marco.
Canetoad
09-04-2013, 16:49
Damn, there goes my dream of boning her! :). ;)
walpurgis
09-04-2013, 19:21
Thanks Andrew and Jerry.
Let's hope all parties can move forward and get on with their lives. As you said, it does no one any good being vengeful.
I expect people will eventually say the same about Hitler.
I expect people will eventually say the same about Hitler.
That's a bit of a stretch as a parallel.....
losenotaminute
09-04-2013, 19:34
That's a bit of a stretch as a parallel.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
Yup, a bit extreme that one, Geoff!
Marco.
walpurgis
09-04-2013, 19:54
Perhaps it was an observation rather than a comparison. It's what came to mind anyway.
The Black Adder
13-04-2013, 11:17
I make it a rule not to speak ill of the dead. But quite frankly in my eyes she was one of the worst leaders we have ever had. Yes she did some great things but the worst things that she did were done to the people with no forethought of how they would help contribute to build a stronger Britain. That was the mistake in my eyes.
The country was in a dire place after the labour government in the 70's so her repeated legacy was driven by the fact that nobody wanted labour back in.
Being from Sheffield I simply can't bring myself to feel any sort of remorse unfortunately.
I saw the steel works shut down, I saw the pits close in Barnsley and Sheffield and remember picket lines in Handsworth. The UK was still pretty antiquated when it came down to the type of jobs and careers that she hit the hardest, coal miners to be the most obvious. And although they had unions they still couldn't show their anger enough, that is that is was falling upon deaf ears at Westminister.
It was sheer misery for lots of people as they found themselves on the dole que quicker than what would have seemed impossible to even conceive. No skills, no way of training up with something quick enough to bring in the bread. Even then their were no jobs available anyway.
I'm no fan of the coal mines, it's a horrible job and yes the idea of taking people out of the mines in my view was great but it was bulldozed through leaving nothing but carnage. Not only with the individuals but communities alike.
And I really missed my milk at school... I remember it being stopped. FFS... talk about a random thing to cull. Kids needed their milk.
But, nevermind. It's all in the past so R.I.P. M.T
losenotaminute
13-04-2013, 12:16
I realise that it's convenient to have a "bogey-woman" to blame, but the facts don't necessarily support the preconceptions.
Wilson closed far more coal mines than Thatcher. There has been quite a lot about this in the press recently.
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1497/thatcher_s_achievements_will_long_outlive_the_spit e_of_sheffield_s_sons_and_daughters
Manufacturing output for the UK increased significantly under Thatcher and fell significantly under Blair.
Lawrence
chris@panteg
13-04-2013, 13:47
Wilson was not on an ideological crusade to destroy socialism and the unions though .
I don't think anyone would argue that Britain was the sick man of Europe back in 79 , he needed a cure , did it have to be such a blunt and brutal instrument ? I don't say I know a better way but ....
I see loads of comments on the web and other forums about a lack of respect , and speaking ill of the dead , I think personally Maggie would be loving this !! To be the center stage again , with so many people hating her , she once said it made her 'smile' because she knew her enemies were suffering .
losenotaminute
13-04-2013, 13:54
Wilson was not on an ideological crusade to destroy socialism and the unions though .
I don't think anyone would argue that Britain was the sick man of Europe back in 79 , he needed a cure , did it have to be such a blunt and brutal instrument ? I don't say I know a better way but ....
I see loads of comments on the web and other forums about a lack of respect , and speaking ill of the dead , I think personally Maggie would be loving this !! To be the center stage again , with so many people hating her , she once said it made her 'smile' because she knew her enemies were suffering .
When did she say that?
I see loads of comments on the web and other forums about a lack of respect , and speaking ill of the dead , I think personally Maggie would be loving this !! To be the center stage again , with so many people hating her , she once said it made her 'smile' because she knew her enemies were suffering .
She may or may not have wished this speaking ill of the dead. It's not behaviour I would encourage my kids to develop. I don't think it would have been admirable for the death Hilter or Pol Pot and surely anyone would have to agree those people deserved to be hated a billion times more than Maggie.
As for smiling because her enemies were suffering, I don't know the quote but I'm guessing this refers to her political enemies.
chris@panteg
13-04-2013, 14:52
BBC documentry , one of her aides mentioned it , says much about her character .
So nothing more than hearsay then?
BBC documentry , one of her aides mentioned it , says much about her character .
Did this refer to people being put out of work or the disarray of the Labour party? The difference between these allegations is significant! Plenty of people in business are pleased when they put their competition in a bad place. It may not be very nice but it's not a heinous crime either. It says more about the person being over-competitive maybe but a winner.
losenotaminute
13-04-2013, 15:03
BBC documentry , one of her aides mentioned it , says much about her character .
I'll take your word for it. From your signature you must be a Withnail fan, so you can't be all bad :)
chris@panteg
13-04-2013, 15:05
She may or may not have wished this speaking ill of the dead. It's not behaviour I would encourage my kids to develop. I don't think it would have been admirable for the death Hilter or Pol Pot and surely anyone would have to agree those people deserved to be hated a billion times more than Maggie.
As for smiling because her enemies were suffering, I don't know the quote but I'm guessing this refers to her political enemies.
Yes political enemies of course !
If people don't want to be talked about after they die , they shouldn't enter bloody politics !!
She was prime minister for eleven years did all those things so she could be left alone and die in obscurity ?
chris@panteg
13-04-2013, 15:12
So nothing more than hearsay then?
Yes , it wasn't a public statement , you can discard it :)
I can believe it though , it's politics .
Yes political enemies of course !
If people don't want to be talked about after they die , they shouldn't enter bloody politics !!
She was prime minister for eleven years did all those things so she could be left alone and die in obscurity ?
There's a difference between informed, passionate debate and opening bubbly, dancing in the street, potentially disrupting the funeral etc. Some of these people weren't even born when Maggie was in power.
Common decency isn't common, unfortunately. Will the right wing do these things when Scargill passes away? They will be just as wrong if they do.
chris@panteg
13-04-2013, 15:16
Did this refer to people being put out of work or the disarray of the Labour party? The difference between these allegations is significant! Plenty of people in business are pleased when they put their competition in a bad place. It may not be very nice but it's not a heinous crime either. It says more about the person being over-competitive maybe but a winner.
No , political enemies like Scargill , and others , apollogies for the wording .
chris@panteg
13-04-2013, 15:22
There's a difference between informed, passionate debate and opening bubbly, dancing in the street, potentially disrupting the funeral etc. Some of these people weren't even born when Maggie was in power.
Common decency isn't common, unfortunately. Will the right wing do these things when Scargill passes away? They will be just as wrong if they do.
Well yes I quite agree , that was pretty sick and pointless .
But many people are making informed and reasonable comments about her legacy , they should be allowed to speak .
Well yes I quite agree , that was pretty sick and pointless .
But many people are making informed and reasonable comments about her legacy , they should be allowed to speak .
Thanks for the earlier clarification.
Yes, I agree that informed and reasonable comment is fine. This is what most senior politicians have managed to achieve, at least most of the time.
Heaven knows don't let the plebs voice their opinions, they can't even string a sentence together therefore have no part in this debate. How Thatcherite is that? :rolleyes:
Heaven knows don't let the plebs voice their opinions, they can't even string a sentence together therefore have no part in this debate. How Thatcherite is that? :rolleyes:
Ugh? Where are you coming from? So many working class people were empowered in that era and yes many suffered with the sharp (too sharp in many ways) re-alignment of UK plc. Remember the lounge bars and public bars in pubs, that's a world away now, that's quite an indication of class changes. Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying, it sounds like your "plebs" should be expected to be incredibly rude. Have I misunderstood?
Thatcher's philosophy was based on the dogmatic theory that through competition society improves, almost like a political version of natural selection. So you get competition in everything from business to education. The trouble with competition though, is that you have winners and losers. Often the losers are losers because of no fault of their own and when they are taken advantage of by the winners the inevitable consequence is a lack of social cohesion. I think the British people knew this when they surprisingly voted for Attlee after the Second World War and wanted to continue to pull together. Thatcher's legacy is selfishness and a still divided Britain, for that I will not mourn her passing.
Thatcher's philosophy was based on the dogmatic theory that through competition society improves, almost like a political version of natural selection. So you get competition in everything from business to education. The trouble with competition though, is that you have winners and losers. Often the losers are losers because of no fault of their own and when they are taken advantage of by the winners the inevitable consequence is a lack of social cohesion. I think the British people knew this when they surprisingly voted for Attlee after the Second World War and wanted to continue to pull together. Thatcher's legacy is selfishness and a still divided Britain, for that I will not mourn her passing.
Our country is not perfect for sure but which countries are not nowadays based on competition? Even China is.
Both Margret and Ronald where like very strong medicine no one likes to swallow but in the end saves your life.
It's easy to offer more candy and soda but England needed drastic change as did the U.S. at that time to save western civilization from collapsing under it's debt and lack of economic growth.
Did it impact people Hell yes it did,here to but did both country's do better for the next generation Hell YES they did.
We actually need to do the same thing today, as the sooner you fix the problem the less impact it will have on every day life.
Our country is not perfect for sure but which countries are not nowadays based on competition? Even China is.
It doesn't make it right though. Thatchers problem was thinking you can use competition to improve everything.
Thatcher's philosophy was based on the dogmatic theory that through competition society improves, almost like a political version of natural selection. So you get competition in everything from business to education. The trouble with competition though, is that you have winners and losers. Often the losers are losers because of no fault of their own and when they are taken advantage of by the winners the inevitable consequence is a lack of social cohesion. I think the British people knew this when they surprisingly voted for Attlee after the Second World War and wanted to continue to pull together. Thatcher's legacy is selfishness and a still divided Britain, for that I will not mourn her passing.
And even with all that said and all the faults of capitalism,when you get down to it.It still better than any other known system for a strong economy.
Never under estimate the human spirit.:cool:
Thatcher worked for a strata of society and served them well, like Cameron is doing now. What amazes me is how they manage to persuade the people who they are not serving, to vote for them. Turkeys voting for Christmas. But, I suppose, that is the power of the press.
It doesn't make it right though. Thatchers problem was thinking you can use competition to improve everything.
I have no issue with you arguing against competition. What I do have an issue with is Thatcher being used as the scapegoat for how much of the world changed. I simply don't believe she's solely responsible for the the growth of capitalism. In the UK the likes of Scargill have much to answer for, what he wanted was so extreme and unrealistic that he provoked a severe reaction.
losenotaminute
13-04-2013, 20:22
Thatcher's philosophy was based on the dogmatic theory that through competition society improves, almost like a political version of natural selection. So you get competition in everything from business to education. The trouble with competition though, is that you have winners and losers. Often the losers are losers because of no fault of their own and when they are taken advantage of by the winners the inevitable consequence is a lack of social cohesion. I think the British people knew this when they surprisingly voted for Attlee after the Second World War and wanted to continue to pull together. Thatcher's legacy is selfishness and a still divided Britain, for that I will not mourn her passing.
While there is certainly a grain of truth in what you say, I think you will find that there are "losers" in socialist societies as well - just take a look at modern day France for example.
Thatcher never advocated the extreme right wing economic policies that she is portrayed as advocating, for example she pumped hundreds of millions of pounds into the coal industry and increased state spending on health and education.
Thatcher in fact did very little to introduce competition into education (or health). She did introduce more competition into business, through privatisation and restrictions on union powers for example, but in many ways this wasn't due to dogma but out of necessity. Without reform the country would have completely ground to a standstill and would be back to the IMF for another loan. If we did go bankrupt again, the IMF would have required just the same economic reforms that Thatcher pushed through.
walpurgis
13-04-2013, 20:39
I'm not going to waste more breathe on Thatcher.
I just hate politicians, especially the last few governments we've had. They're all just devious, self serving ba****ds, greasing the wheels for banks and corporate interests (same thing really). There's not a shred of decency, conscience or benevolence in any big business or major political party.
Thatcher's philosophy was based on the dogmatic theory that through competition society improves, almost like a political version of natural selection. So you get competition in everything from business to education. The trouble with competition though, is that you have winners and losers. Often the losers are losers because of no fault of their own and when they are taken advantage of by the winners the inevitable consequence is a lack of social cohesion. I think the British people knew this when they surprisingly voted for Attlee after the Second World War and wanted to continue to pull together. Thatcher's legacy is selfishness and a still divided Britain, for that I will not mourn her passing.
I thought then and still think now that it wasn't 'competition' that Mrs T held a dogma for, I believe it was far simpler than that.
Nationalised industries were for a very long time regarded as a "burden" on the state and to a degree I wouldn't disagree with that, plus the unions contributed significantly to their own downfall in no small measure either.
I think she held with great envy the American version of capitalism where there isn't really any nationalised industries in the form we know them as to be a burden, so it was a case of cutting them adrift to wither or selling them off into free market forces to fend for themselves while at the same time enriching the coffers.
With the great sell-off of the "family silver" going very well and so too was north sea oil making a tidy quid or two, the government of the time were not short of money and it was the ultimate taboo of selling the NHS and education that stopped that government from having ANY state responsibilities and still raking in all the taxes from Joe Mug public. THIS government perpetuates that ideology and it seems the taboos about privatising the NHS are hidden behind a veil of "austerity" and the benefits systems is square in their sights too. Education next, but even that has an insidious rot already if you look closely.
So, I still say the competiton, selfishness and loadsa money mentality, was just a smoke screen for a much bigger plot going on.
Seeing the party goers in Trafalgar Square on the news I'm left with the feeling they should have been handed application forms to emigrate to North Korea. Maybe the regime there would be more to their liking.
Thatcher worked for a strata of society and served them well, like Cameron is doing now. What amazes me is how they manage to persuade the people who they are not serving, to vote for them. Turkeys voting for Christmas. But, I suppose, that is the power of the press.
That's easy, they didn't persuade them to vote. The LibDems realigned themselves with Tory ideologies without seeking the permission of their membership, which is how we ended up with the current shower.
Ugh? Where are you coming from? So many working class people were empowered in that era and yes many suffered with the sharp (too sharp in many ways) re-alignment of UK plc. Remember the lounge bars and public bars in pubs, that's a world away now, that's quite an indication of class changes. Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying, it sounds like your "plebs" should be expected to be incredibly rude. Have I misunderstood?
Mine was an ironic statement not aimed at anyone in particular but at the situation in general. It would seem that the intellectuals have taken over the debate leaving those who were the actual victims of Maggies policies out in the rain, as usual...
There are no "intellectuals" here, just different levels of daftees!! :D
Marco.
There are no "intellectuals" here, just different levels of daftees!! :D
Marco.
Hey!
I resemble that remark!
I'd just like to point out that capitalism is not an ideology, it is the natural order of things in human society. Socialism and Communism are ideologies in that they attempt to radically change the natural order in order to benefit the vast majority (in principle). In practice they benefit nobody. If we are talking victims there are far more victims of socialism/communism. That's why communist countries have to build walls and lay minefields to keep their people imprisoned. As Churchill said:
'Capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings, Communism is the equal sharing of misery.'
What we have had in this country since the 1st world war is a gradual move towards socialism, hence the state we are in now. The shift has been gradual because the English people would not accept an immediate jump to a communist system as the majority of us know what that entails (cf North Korea) and don't fancy it much. However Capitalism must be well regulated in order to work effectively, and it has not been well regulated, so we end up with what we have now - 'crony capitalism' as it is often called. The government simply has too much power and too much money to spread around and this has lead to a corruption of the system.
As for Thatcher - I don't agree that politics should be about personality or cults of the individual. The best government we have had in my lifetime was the John Major administration. Why? Because they had such a small majority they were unable to action any large reforms and instead had to content themselves with tinkering around the edges (cone hotline, back to basics etc) and straightening out the economy (which improved massively from 1992 to 1997). Small, almost impotent government is the best form of government.
walpurgis
14-04-2013, 10:43
Real Socialism and Communism have never existed. There has never been a true Communist state. It could be argued that Castro came nearest, but there will always be those who end up 'more equal' than others.
What people have in the past described as Communism has in fact been Despotic Totalitarianism.
Capitalism succeeds by 'bullying' its way through and depending on the naive, blinkered stupidity of the masses.
People need to realise that elections mean very little. It's not the politicians that pull the strings. They are just there to make you think you have something to vote for. It's all a sham.
Covenant
14-04-2013, 10:47
Real Socialism and Communism have never existed. There has never been a true Communist state. It could be argued that Castro came nearest, but there will always be those who end up 'more equal' than others.
What people have in the past described as Communism has in fact been Despotic Totalitarianism.
Capitalism succeeds by 'bullying' its way through and depending on the naive, blinkered stupidity of the masses.
People need to realise that elections mean very little. It's not the politicians that pull the strings. They are just there to make you think you have something to vote for. It's all a sham.
Can you think of something better?
walpurgis
14-04-2013, 11:13
Something honest, open and properly diplomatic would be nice!
But we all know that's not going to happen.
The hypocrisy, wheedling manipulation and duplicitous treachery will continue.
Can you think of something better?
I can.
Yeah, don't bother voting, like me, under the premise that they're all arseholes! ;)
Marco.
Voting will be a big problem come next election.
People are so sick of them all i'am guessing the turn out will be tiny.
If you don't vote, you can't complain at the outcome.
I don't, Martin. I pay little attention to neither the leading up process to an election or the outcome. We just live our lives as best as we can, day by day, and divorce ourselves as far as possible from the whole corrupted nonsense.
Fortunately (with having no kids, no mortgage on any of the four properties we own outright, and being debt-free and largely self-sufficient), very few of the major policies introduced by any of the tossers have a significant impact on our lifestyle! :)
We're just waiting on property prices rising again, close to what they were a while ago, so we can cash in on some of our assets... ;)
Marco.
If you don't vote, you can't complain at the outcome.
A fair point if we lived in a genuine democracy. But we don't. I live in a safe Labour seat so no point in me voting at all. Not that I would vote for any of the other showers either, even if it made a difference.
Rare Bird
14-04-2013, 12:16
It's so blissfull getting on with my life..I don't give two hoots what goes on in westminster.
And sadly to many others think the same.
I'd like the use of computers to be used for the public on big decisions.
Everyone gets a pin number,can't be that hard.
It's so blissfull getting on with my life..I don't give two hoots what goes on in westminster.
Ditto. I rarely watch the news (except for the local stuff) and almost NEVER buy a newspaper! All that shite bores the pants off of me. We just do what we have to do and largely shut ourselves off from 'the real world'....
Marco.
Ditto. I rarely watch the news (except for the local stuff) and almost NEVER buy a newspaper! All that shite bores the pants off me. We just do what we have to do and largely shut ourselves off from 'the real world'....
Marco.
Ignorance is bliss, they say. Until the State arrives to confiscate your house and your money. I like to know what is going on (although even if you do read the papers and watch the TV news you still have to read between the lines).
And don't take the confiscation remark lightly - they have started already in Cyprus.
Rare Bird
14-04-2013, 12:33
Ignorance is bliss & so it will remain, you lot obviously have nothing in your lives to do?
, you lot obviously have nothing in your lives to do?
That's right, not got much on at all these days. Quite enjoying it really, nice change of pace :)
walpurgis
14-04-2013, 12:37
The outcome of a general election has no bearing on what is likely to happen in this country. At best you're just swapping one bunch of scumbags for another, Westminster is just there for us to get pissed off about and have a rant at. It has nothing to do with the way Britain is controlled. Look to the banks & yanks etc., they tell our government how it will be!
Ignorance is bliss, they say. Until the State arrives to confiscate your house and your money. I like to know what is going on (although even if you do read the papers and watch the TV news you still have to read between the lines).
And don't take the confiscation remark lightly - they have started already in Cyprus.
Lol... I doubt that would ever happen in Britain. There are too many capitalists! ;) Besides, one sniff of that pish, and we'd be off to an island somewhere far away...
Joking aside, we're not that disconnected from reality. We're 'aware' of what's going on, just not overly bothered seeking it out or obsessing over what some corpulent cock-jockeys get up to in Westminster, bizarrely like many folk do. BOOORRRRIIINNNNGGG!! We're pretty dispassionate about any of that crapola, so just can't get worked up about it.
Worrying about fooking politics is so far down the list of our life priorities that it barely even registers!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
The outcome of a general election has no bearing on what is likely to happen in this country. At best you're just swapping one bunch of scumbags for another, Westminster is just there for us to get pissed off about and have a rant at. It has nothing to do with the way Britain is controlled. Look to the banks & yanks etc., they tell our government how it will be!
Sadly i agree.
Also we have accepted this and not put up a fight.
We have basically given mp's permission to do what they want.
The tories could probably sell nearly all the NHS off and not to many would give a toss.
What is needed is a party to fill the void left by labour.
The outcome of a general election has no bearing on what is likely to happen in this country. At best you're just swapping one bunch of scumbags for another, Westminster is just there for us to get pissed off about and have a rant at. It has nothing to do with the way Britain is controlled. Look to the banks & yanks etc., they tell our government how it will be!
I agree it is a choice between scumbags - but I prefer the 'Tory' scumbags. Why> Well both will fill their own pockets whilst looking after their mates, It's reprehensible but I can work around that. The problem with Labour is that in addition to the thieving they are idealists, they like to make big social experiments that have all sorts of intended and unintended consequences, usually all bad.
Rare Bird
14-04-2013, 13:30
Lol... I doubt that would ever happen in Britain. There are too many capitalists! ;) Besides, one sniff of that pish, and we'd be off to an island somewhere far away...
Joking aside, we're not that disconnected from reality. We're 'aware' of what's going on, just not overly bothered seeking it out or obsessing over what some corpulent cock-jockeys get up to in Westminster, bizarrely like many folk do. BOOORRRRIIINNNNGGG!! We're pretty dispassionate about any of that crapola, so just can't get worked up about it.
Worrying about fooking politics is so far down the list of our life priorities that it barely even registers!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
+1
.....yet people can get all in a lather over hi fi but are fine when the local hospital,old folks home etc get shut down.
Strange old world.
Rare Bird
14-04-2013, 13:50
Look people can choose to ignore what's going on in the world.. People can choose to look after No.1 etc it's their choice. I feel music is the most important thing in my life over ANYTHING. This is the thing that is the ultimate of importance to me, politics, religon & sport or something that i am totally NOT intrested in at all.
Just for the record: People saying they hate this, that & the other politician! It's a job,It's what they get paid to do.. you do not know this person from adam so why the personal hate is beyond me.. :scratch:
walpurgis
14-04-2013, 13:58
I agree it is a choice between scumbags - but I prefer the 'Tory' scumbags. Why> Well both will fill their own pockets whilst looking after their mates, It's reprehensible but I can work around that. The problem with Labour is that in addition to the thieving they are idealists, they like to make big social experiments that have all sorts of intended and unintended consequences, usually all bad.
You've missed my point. Tories/Labour, it makes no difference!
It would make no difference either if another party was elected to power. In the end they just get steered/lobbied/bullied and pressured into doing the bidding of 'the vested interests', regardless of pre-election promises and a hopeful looking manifesto. It's all a con job!
Politicians from any party who rocked the boat (gravy train?), would suddenly find their private lives given close scrutiny by the media looking for skeletons in closets. Lucrative directorships would be yanked. Honorary positions here and there would fold. There'd constant tickets for traffic violations. Businesses would suddenly attract undue interest from the taxman and visits from local authority enforcement officers from various departments. The Civil Service would start not cooperating or providing misinformation. Banking problems would arise. A whole catalogue of misfortune is possible.
Of course all this would be just coincidental and unfortunate. Heaven forbid that it could happen as an orchestrated campaign in a 'democracy'!
chris@panteg
14-04-2013, 14:50
A polish guy I work with thinks all we brits do is whinge and complain about everything , yet are not prepared to do anything about it ! He has a point , we are too tolerant , to trusting maybe .
Too conservative really .
I wish people were more interested , at least vote !! Whatever party of your choice ?
Taking another tack, which may gain more consensus here, could anyone explain to me why that useless good-for-nothing pariah Mark Thatcher was knighted? What services to society did he ever contribute, exactly?
Pretty sure it was just because she was him mum.
I thought you had to defend the country or Queen to to be knighted in battle?
I'm sure King Arthur would have been pleased to have SR. Elton John getting his back on the battle field.
Mabey he could reword a song written for someone else and sing it to the enemy.
I thought you had to defend the country or Queen to to be knighted in battle?
I'm sure King Arthur would have been pleased to have SR. Elton John getting his back on the battle field.
Mabey he could reword a song written for someone else and sing it to the enemy.
We got rid of King Arthur's round table some time ago. I think it was a health and safety issue. Or something.
Should the nation be spending twelve million pounds on this woman's funeral when the country as a whole is in such a state financially? It is obscene to expect the taxpayer to cough up the cash when austerity has cut such deep holes in so many pockets. Maggie herself asked for a state funeral and frankly she is getting one in all but name.
It is likely that this event will outgrow its intended purpose and become a catalyst for grassroots change in this country. People are fed up with being lied to by mealy-mouthed politicians who only have their own interests at heart. What this country desperately needs is a social uprising on an unprecedented scale, something along the lines of the summer riots a couple of years ago but with real purpose. I hope Cameron continues along his uncompromising and uncaring path because the more he pushes the more likely it is that a revolution will occur. I hope to God it happens...
Audio Al
14-04-2013, 18:10
I read in the newspaper the funeral is going to cost the British Taxpayer
10 MILLION pounds :eek:
Why not invite all the " guests " to meet at Portsmouth , get on a Royal Navy ship , short ride out into the Channel , some gun firing , and slip Maggie over the side , Ah Men
losenotaminute
14-04-2013, 18:27
I read in the newspaper the funeral is going to cost the British Taxpayer
10 MILLION pounds :eek:
Why not invite all the " guests " to meet at Portsmouth , get on a Royal Navy ship , short ride out into the Channel , some gun firing , and slip Maggie over the side , Ah Men
I think actually it will be the Chinese who are lending us the money for the funeral. Very decent of them given that they are such strong supporters of capitalism, but I wouldn't bank on them ever getting their money back!
Most of the world is in hock to the Chinese, see what they've done there?
she was a polarizing figure to say the least. whether or not you are in agreement with her politics or the policies of her government, she did at least at least three things right in my book
1) had a clear and unambiguous policy position, and wasn't blown around like a paper bag by opinion polls.
2) always defended our national interest in Europe and would fight hard for our economic interests. compare that to brown who has cost us billions in treaty concessions to appear more like a statesman.
3) believed in freedom and recognised that human talent exists across all social classes and that allowing people to achieve success on merit without the constraints of the class system. Yes, it isn't perfect but you forget what it was like before her...
I think that at lot of people forget the state of the country when she came to power in the 1970s. without urgent and radical social and economic reforms, we would have been bankrupt with all of the attendant misery that would have caused. sooner or later someone would have had to have done it as the country was broken and hugely socially divided. luckily she had the guts to do it. we all have much to thank her for IMHO.
Alex
chris@panteg
14-04-2013, 23:18
She wasn't such a bad stick I suppose :eyebrows:
Rare Bird
15-04-2013, 08:05
Lets go back to Harold Wilson first term leadership, most of what the country lacks today was ok back then
:sofa:
chris@panteg
15-04-2013, 08:27
Was it better back in the 60's Andre , daft question really ;)
But older friends and colleagues always say you could just walk into any job you fancied ?
And England could play footie .
Covenant
15-04-2013, 08:31
Better if you were white, middle class, free of any disability....etc, etc
Rare Bird
15-04-2013, 08:46
Was it better back in the 60's Andre , daft question really ;)
But older friends and colleagues always say you could just walk into any job you fancied ?
Of any period in time i would love to live, it would be the mid to late 60's anytime.
Yep very low unemployment.
chris@panteg
15-04-2013, 08:55
Of any period in time i would love to live, it would be the mid to late 60's anytime.
Yep very low unemployment.
If you want out of the EU , there is Ukip , would you vote for em though Andre ?
Rare Bird
15-04-2013, 09:07
I should think everyone wants out.. the Begining of the 70's was the Begining of the end for this country imho..
I don't do modern Politics but i would have done back in the 60's. I don't vote these days but would have voted Labour back then.
Irrespective of party politics, just look at her performance in her interview in the Soviet Union in 1987. Well spoken, firm, unyielding and really quite brave. This was apparently transmitted uncensored to the Soviet people and it must have surprised them to learn how they were perceived by the West.
maQABMbbhQM
Better if you were white, middle class, free of any disability....etc, etc
Much like today then... ;)
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