View Full Version : File based audio done CHEAPLY :lol:
Rather than pee all over the thread Martin and John have started about streaming done right, I thought I'd chip in from the opposite direction, not having the money to throw at this way of doing things.
You know chaps, I'm having lots of fun too and for peanuts. No expensive JRiver supposedly improving the sound of a digital stream into a posh DAC. No sirree. All I have (cue violins) to start with is an ancient Shuttle PC running XP, WMP and mainly Foobar for FLACs, the choice of a PCI M-Audio 24/96 soundcard which I think inverts absolute phase (far more important sonically to me this, for some reason) and a cheap-as-chips and possibly crude sounding Behringer UCA202 (my son nicked the even cheaper Fiio thing which kicked all this off). Interconnect is currently an Atratus recently bought from a goodly chap here (thanks indeed), which needed to have its unmarked direction sorted (something else I seem to be sensitive to) and then into the Croft/HH/LS5/9 system. I've also used the Amptastic interconnect with good results.
Sorry fellas, not trying in the slightest to pee on your posts above, but what I'm trying to do (badly) is to encourage anyone with a computer or easily movable laptop with USB ports to give it a go as another versatile source. The Behringer thingy can be got for £25 or so on Amazon (Rega Carbon price...) and a decent interconnect can be readily got for as little as a fiver on ebay - this one's nothing like as bad as you'd think -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280727389690?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_2366wt_996
...and I believe Mark (Reid Malenfant) rated the triple video version which looks to use the same conductors.
The sound via Behringer is excellent, if a touch "raw" in this upstairs system and a great taster for what else could be got for not much dosh - I can't even think of an over £200 DAC right now as house and car maintainance is taking any spare big money right now. Bass is powerful but tuneful, the Atratus adding some "punch" for whatever reason, mid is very open with good "layering" of spatial things in the mix and treble changes with both recordings and interconnects (what do these cable naysayers listen to?).
If you chaps have a laptop that can be moved near the stereo, around £30 to spare (if you've never tried this before as I hadn't) and some audio files you've either downloaded or CD's you've ripped to the hard drive as an experiment, I'd seriously recomment you give it a go, at least for a giggle at first. If you like this way of doing it - no need at all to ditch the vinyl FFS - then look further into better software and a more advanced DAC for example (the Epiphany one looks good as well as some of the USB "pens" coming along at a hideously expensive £200 or so :lol:). Forget Linn and Naim-style streamers for Top End reproduction of this nature, since John & MartinT, Gazjam and friends have shown how well this can be done for loads less on here - and this isn't even a streaming-based site either :lol: - HDD Audio seems too heavily biased towards promoting AVI and the thoughts of "Chairman Ash" these days for any truly meaningful and robust discussions since any dissent is stamped on hard, the "qualifications" of anyone not of the same opinion being called into question :(
skimminstones
07-04-2013, 10:38
that was exactly my first set up into computer based music. Had an old laptop lying around so put all my music on it, bought one of those behringer UCA202 and set foobar on shuffle. Sounded fine to me with some cambridge audio 10 quid interconnects.
I then bought a squeezebox classic off ebay and it took a while before i really started to notice much of a difference between that and the behringer, although i do now but id happily recommend anyone to try one of those behringers if they want to start out.
A interesting approach Dave would love to hear it sometime
I think many paths on the computer audio approach I would look into seeing what you can do to quieten the laptop/ If using Windows I really would consider going up to Windows 8 its another step up I think you can get the pro version for about £45 now and use Tim excellent article on how to do a clean install, well worth the hassle IMHO if using Windows
I'm exploring low cost PC streaming at the moment as well. I use a heavily modified Squeezebox and want to compare direct streaming from a PC on the 'cheap'.
OS is XP like you, number of things you can try as you are using Foobar: Install ASIO4ALL and set Foobar preferences to use it, configure it to point to you audio device, Install Fidelizer that kills unwanted tasks, Fire up Task Manger and locate any remaining unnecessary tasks (make a note of them), create a batch file and add the commands taskkill /f /im taskname.exe for each unwanted task (needs XP professional).
For Laptop: Go to power options in Control Panel, make sure for battery and mains power the laptop cant sleep, set screen to go off after one minute.
If you are using USB go for a self powered DAC or self powered USB to SPDIF converter or use a powered hub. For USB cables try to avoid them! Use a small USB A to B or whatever converter dongle and eliminate the cable, this works well with USB to SPDIF converters.
Last one if still on the USB track use a plugin USB isolator at the computer...
John, thanks for kind comments. The Shuttle is so old in computer terms (2004 era) that Windows 7 or 8 would be impossible for it due to lack of RAM of the right speed and quantity if nothing else. I'm gradually replacing the crumbling RM notebooks we use downstairs (bought for well under fifty quid each at the time) with better-made Dell ones, the simpler Win 7 compatible ones now coming into the price range if bought with a key missing, or other somesuch eaily and cheaply replaced).
[Edit] - Asio4all is installed and running - no dropouts. No funny noises in the background either from the Shuttle power supplies I can hear at the mo..
It was the longish loan of a huge hard drive with thousands of FLACs on it which started this off and many of the albums are well-remastered versions of old favourites (Joan Armatrading, APP etc). Interesting how much "better" the original CD's sound when "played" on the computer via this DAC too, although the level-correcion and digital noise-shaping in later sympathetic remasters has rendered reverb and similar so much better and more relaxing to appreciate in such recordings***. Earlier CD's were mastered very low level and this means that reverb etc was at around -60 or -70db, right where early CD players (and old digital work stations as used in mid 80's mastering rooms) could have difficulty I think possibly. Just lifting the peak levels to nearer "0db" and applying digital noise-shaping has transformed some of these recordings, the air and atmosphere being more naturally reproduced with no "grain" apparent. Modern playback - even cheap modern playback - seems to exploit this to great advantage I feel and the whole thing is so much better to me.
*** One track I was very disappointed with on original CD issue was "One Love" by Joan Armatrading, from the album "Show Some Emotion." Glyn Johns the producer gave Joan's voice a wash of reverb which she returned to in later albums after the dead-n-dry "To The Limit" and I never felt the CD did the recording justice over the LP. Now though, both the FLAC rip from a new CD? seems to have returned it to how i remember and in fact the old CD I have is much better too, if not quite as good.
Neal has made some really good recommendations for taking things further
JazzBones
07-04-2013, 12:49
:D I really really wish I understood all this; serious folks. Went all round the house squeezing boxes, even the ones the wife keeps her shoes in, and nothing happen? Even went next door and squeezed my neighbour who is kind of box shaped, now that did produce something tangible but I couldn't live with the result she came up with :eek:! Got to stick with changing needles on my wind up gramophone.
Bewildered, bothered and upset from middle England :)
Ali Tait
07-04-2013, 13:17
:lol:
Interesting how much "better" the original CD's sound when "played" on the computer via this DAC too, although the level-correcion and digital noise-shaping in later sympathetic remasters has rendered reverb and similar so much better and more relaxing to appreciate in such recordings***. Earlier CD's were mastered very low level and this means that reverb etc was at around -60 or -70db, right where early CD players (and old digital work stations as used in mid 80's mastering rooms) could have difficulty I think possibly. Just lifting the peak levels to nearer "0db" and applying digital noise-shaping has transformed some of these recordings, the air and atmosphere being more naturally reproduced with no "grain" apparent. Modern playback - even cheap modern playback - seems to exploit this to great advantage I feel and the whole thing is so much better to me.
Are you changing the level and dither in the software on the fly in playback or are you saying it can be part of the ripping software function?
I've a Meridian 618 tha does both on the fly (processor from mid 90's) which I thought was broken butgot it out of storage to find it was just dirty switches/buttons all along! But now if lost somescrews from it..
Many typos- not so easy using a tablet screen keyboard while a rabbit licks your hands.. Still, wouldnt have it any other way.
The Grand Wazoo
07-04-2013, 16:16
Many typos- not so easy using a tablet screen keyboard while a rabbit licks your hands.. Still, wouldnt have it any other way.
Bloody hell, is there something you need to tell us.....or your local Catholic priest?
Iv not read the "done properly" threads but is that just a matter of expense?
Is there a real test of sound quality going on compared to doing it cheaper?
I see digital (as with anything) only being as good as the original recording, other than dither & level, and so can the latest hardware really play a file better than the old hardware it was recorded on? I'm not even sure if even the top PC based recording systems like Pyramix has even moved to Winows 8 yet for example. Results might be more about getting your chosen software to work well, in terms of choice of hardware and OS - use the latest software and you're forced to shell out on the latest hardware..
Bloody hell, is there something you need to tell us.....or your local Catholic priest?
Hehe, no just my girlfriend's pet rabbit being sociable and looking to settle in for some stroking time. Nothing like a lazy sunday for lazing with other animals - im laying on the sofa now and he's snuggled into me for warmth and cuddles.
Are you changing the level and dither in the software on the fly in playback or are you saying it can be part of the ripping software function?
I've a Meridian 618 tha does both on the fly (processor from mid 90's) which I thought was broken butgot it out of storage to find it was just dirty switches/buttons all along! But now if lost somescrews from it..
Many typos- not so easy using a tablet screen keyboard while a rabbit licks your hands.. Still, wouldnt have it any other way.
"Sir, 007 is here, would you like me to show him in?" :D
A mental picture you conjured up with your last paragraph Nat. Maybe I need a lie down? :lol:
wee tee cee
07-04-2013, 17:06
down load the free version of spotify....opens a world of music listening.If you enjoy it pay for the better versions.
The berringher is a terrific device for the money...good headphone amp also.
You're not far off... Combined with Barbarella , laying on cushions except a bloke in cords and tshirt, not Barbarella.
Hope that's messed with a few mental images.
down load the free version of spotify....opens a world of music listening.If you enjoy it pay for the better versions.
The berringher is a terrific device for the money...good headphone amp also.
But a world that can be snatched from you at any time. They have no requirement to stay in business, it's only run for profit afterall.
Nor do any labels have any obligation to allow their music to be on there, especially if they sign contracts with rivals.
I like to have my own physical collection then use services like Spotify for discovery or convenience when away.
Are you changing the level and dither in the software on the fly in playback or are you saying it can be part of the ripping software function?
I've a Meridian 618 tha does both on the fly (processor from mid 90's) which I thought was broken butgot it out of storage to find it was just dirty switches/buttons all along! But now if lost somescrews from it..
Many typos- not so easy using a tablet screen keyboard while a rabbit licks your hands.. Still, wouldnt have it any other way.
Could you say the first paragraph in English please? :lol: :rofl:
I've gone into Foobar, checked the dither box in "preferances" IIRC, have been able to select the Behringer for playback - a pain if trying to quickly compare the two sound sources. The results are good enough now for me to remove the M-Audio 24/96 soundcard and replace it with a multi-port USB hub - the little Shuttle doesn't offer enough USB2 ports for my needs although it's fine as a PC for server and basic office duties..
I'm not a total computer numpty (about one rung above I reckon :lol:) but have never before needed nor wanted to stream music - I MUCH prefer to handle discs whether records or CD's. Alex_UK has a good working and very simple streaming setup at his place, which suits him and family well, helping to prevent his precious discs from jammy finger-prints, scratches etc. Since he does loads of work from home, it's been a godsend for him I think (sorry to put words into your mouth Alex) and I'm interested in dipping toes into the water, hebce sharing thoughts on this thread.
As for "digital quality," I'm sure we need the silly priced DCS style of decoding to set the standard, which will then inevitably trickle down onto mass-market solutions as it's done over the decades. I really do feel that modern DAC's don't need to cost the earth unless they have posh casings and loads of facilities. As stated in the review by NWAVGuy, who's done the basic design of the DAC board used in the Epiphany Acoustics USB DAC and DAC/Headphone amp, behringer can buy chips for pennies instead of quid, as most HiFi manufacturers would have to do, they employ well experienced and knowledgeable design people I understand and if these things are made in the zillions instead of tens or hundreds, then costs can be very modest indeed. the UCA202 needs some tweaks to the headphone output to really be a universal product, but I don't use headphones in this situation so to me it doesn't matter.
Let's be honest here. I think that many on this site may need something a bit "better" and something like the Epiphany Acoustics model at a ton or so, and the little USB "stick" types from Audioquest and M2Tech may be better items, although I must admit to not being impressed with the little red £200 approx unit Alex bought and used for a while (apologies, can't remember the exact name).
Lots more for me to learn - fascinating :)
wee tee cee
07-04-2013, 18:02
yup...i am the same. buy my cd rip it onto the lap top then put it in a box in the attic.
spotify lets me try before i buy.....i like owning something physical-this week had some chat in the news about digital files not being transferable by the punter...ho hum.
I like handling something physical too (keep smutty thoughts to yourselves).
Had thought of streaming some years ago and splashed out on a silent Hush PC (2nd hand). Such was my enthusiasm, the pc sits unused and obsolete with 700mhz VIA chipset.
My first sentence Dave was whether the files were saved as dithered or whether they were dithered on playback by foobar. Sounds like the latter. Would be the same as inserting my 618 before the DAC.
I dont consider the DAC as part of a streaming system, that's hifi to me even if with a USB input.
How does the m-audio compare with the Bheringer? And have you tried it's digital out into your main system DAC (maybe you use an integrated CD player..).
yup...i am the same. buy my cd rip it onto the lap top then put it in a box in the attic.
spotify lets me try before i buy.....i like owning something physical-this week had some chat in the news about digital files not being transferable by the punter...ho hum.
Interesting article in New Scientist too about ownership and the increasing use of cloud storage. The US Government is arguing in court at the moment (in a case relating to the MegaUpload case) that all ownership rights are given up as soon as you upload anything to a server based in the US, be that personal photos, business data, email like Yahoo or music. Therefore, when they seize those servers for any reason, they have no obligation to ever let you access that data ever again, nor even need to regard any privacy laws concerning that data..
I've used the digital output from the M-Audio into my Ton-Up Digit and very nice it was too. I needed a more modern DAC so I could sometimes play 48kHz sound from DVD's and the QED doesn't allow this. The M-Audio does with no difficulty from its analogue output via a 2.4m Belkin interconnect. I still have a sneaky impression that the analogue outs on the M-Audio invert the phase, which to me gives a more laid-back and less lively type of presentation - I know I can't prove it, but it's one of those impressions we audio people sometimes get... Currently, the Digit is used with the Denon DCD1520 as transport and it sounds very good indeed this way.
aquapiranha
07-04-2013, 22:22
As I mentioned on another thread, you can pick up a great little Pc like the Lenovo Q190 for £250 and throw on a version of XBMc (windows or Linux your choice) and then you can control the whole thisng with a free app on your smartphone! What's not to like?
More computers, tablets and mobile devices in your life. Bored of them already myself. They're all so similar to vanishing point.
I like uniquely interfaced machines.
However, having one as an extra music playing thing on the side to play with is ok.
More computers, tablets and mobile devices in your life. Bored of them already myself. They're all so similar to vanishing point.
I like uniquely interfaced machines.
However, having one as an extra music playing thing on the side to play with is ok.
That you Chumpy? :)
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