View Full Version : SME 3009 vs more modern turntable/arm
Hi guys - I wondered if you guys would give me your opinions on this subject.
I have an SME 3009 which was my grandfathers. I think it may need a bit of tlc to get it in working order, (although there's nothing visibly wrong with it it hasn't been used for at least 30 years) and then I would need to buy a turntable to go with it. If I were to 'restore' the arm and then get something like a technics 1200 to go with it, how do you think that set-up would compare to a more modern, 'entry' turntable like a Pro-ject debut carbon?
There is already a lot of 'warmth' in my system - radford valve power amp, celestion ditton 15xr speakers.
I also don't really want to get into too much hassle with the vinyl side of things. I listen to CD's 99% of the time and the turntable will just be for very occasional use.
Any thoughts on the pros/cons of either option would be gratefully received!
Forget the Pro-ject for a minute PLEASE!!!!!
The SME 3009 came in a few "flavours," so first we need to establish which one.. All main spares are available - at a huge price if bought new - and these arms fetch good money anyway on the used market. The older Series 2 were medium to high mass, benefit from different less resonant headshells and are still very worthy with many of todays better cartridges. The "Improved" models from 1972 or so featured very low mass and low inertia, but can sound flat and thin if you get the cartridge wrong. The S2 detachable shell one can benefit from a more solid shell, but the fixed head model needs the black-tack gunk SME can supply to go between the cartridge top and headshell, a heavier counterweight to account for more massy stainless steel screws and nuts and I'd still stick to fixed coil cartridges and the most accomodating of MC types. No need to fanny about with third party add-on bearings etc.... A good cartridge for the fixed head 3009's could be the AT120E, which balances nicely (sonics) when used with such low mass arms, less so in a modern heavyweight..... The Shure 97XE is another for under £100
Loads of good vintage decks around that will love a 3009. Depends where you want to go with it. Pro-jects and the Rega RP1 (the latter my personal preferred choice if a £250 deck is where you want to be) are fine and tidy and do the job really well. However, the SME will open your horizons no end when set up right on a good matching vintage deck and will be a pleasure to own and use.
Is that ok for starters?
Thats great, thanks. At the moment it's with a connoisseur craftsman deck in a fairly ugly home made plinth. Maybe I should try and clean it up and put it in a new plinth?
Any tips on how to work out which 3009 I have? It doesn't say any more than that on it
Stratmangler
31-03-2013, 21:55
Dave R
What's this "blacktack" gunk to which you refer?
Rare Bird
31-03-2013, 21:56
:worthless:
Stratmangler
31-03-2013, 21:56
Any tips on how to work out which 3009 I have? It doesn't say any more than that on it
Post a piccie - says more than a thousand words :)
The holey SME shell could be to low in mass and resonated with some demanding cartridges - the dimples on the screw holes affects proper cartridge seating too (fixed on much later arms). They supplied a small amount of black-tack in later arms which works really well, filling the void between cartridge top, finger lift and shell proper..
The Connoiseur Craftsman is another old deck that could be a true classic with some tweaking and a decent re-plinth. NOT one to ditch without serious thought...
Here are some images - I think that what looks like rust is actually tobacco staining from it living in a very smokey house for many years!
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk288/paulsayer81/photo-12.jpg
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk288/paulsayer81/photo-10.jpg
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk288/paulsayer81/photo-11.jpg
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk288/paulsayer81/photo-6.jpg
Stratmangler
31-03-2013, 22:09
The holey SME shell could be to low in mass and resonated with some demanding cartridges - the dimples on the screw holes affects proper cartridge seating too (fixed on much later arms). They supplied a small amount of black-tack in later arms which works really well, filling the void between cartridge top, finger lift and shell proper..
The Connoiseur Craftsman is another old deck that could be a true classic with some tweaking and a decent re-plinth. NOT one to ditch without serious thought...
My 3009/2imp is an early one - has the same pulley system as the one Barry has recently sold to HiFi Dave, and there's no gunk to be seen.
I do know that the arm was purchased in late January/early February 1973.
The arm works extremely well with high compliance MM cartridges.
Gunk came very late 70's IIRC. I'll try and take a pic of the stuff I have, in SME wrapping...
It's an SII Improved, fixed headshell, and a bit of meths and some (careful) elbow grease should get it looking peachy again.
Thanks Alex, that's great. So where does that sit in terms of what is considered the better 3009?
In general, the older ones are preferred - though, in reality, there is very little between them (other than earlier ones having removable headshells).
Yours is just like the one I have - but mine lives on a shelf...
Rare Bird
31-03-2013, 22:45
S2/Improved was available as a removable headshell too.
My 3009/2imp is an early one - has the same pulley system as the one Barry has recently sold to HiFi Dave, and there's no gunk to be seen.
I do know that the arm was purchased in late January/early February 1973.
The arm works extremely well with high compliance MM cartridges.
The 'gunk' was an aftermarket product, supplied with later SME arms as standard and also with the SME FD200 damper.
Although not as 'stiff', BluTak can be used as a feasonable substitute.
For more information on your arm (which is a 'middle period' 3009 Improved version), we would need to know the serial number (marked on the underside of the shielding can, under the base of the arm).
I've had several SME's including the one you have Paul. It is an S2 improved with nylon bearing as opposed to brass. Some recommend "upgrading" the nylon to a brass bearing but don't be tempted to do this as it'll ruin the sound. The S1 and S1 were different in terms of mass and resonance and fitting a 6.5g arm with the brass bearing can ruin the sound.
Improvements are few and far between but one worthwhile improvement if you are considering keeping it (and it's a lovely thing so why not?) is an arm tube re-wire. This is a worthwhile improvement as the original wires can corrode over time plus isn't a very expensive mod. If you were careful and handy at DIY you could do it yourself for very little cost.
The arm, as mentioned, has an effective mass of 6.5g, so is considered a low mass arm. This means that it is best used with higher than average compliance cartridges. The Shure range of cartridges were very popular with this arm. These are plentiful on the used market (M75/M91/M95/V15). Newer carts that work well with it (in spite of complaince issues) include the Denon DL110 and Shure M97ex.
It's a good, competent arm but my humble opinion is that it is a little compromised at the frequency extremes. It's still a good alternative to modern budget arms and there's little to wear out.
Value if you decided to part company with it is between £125 and £170 (on a good day with a fair wind).
I prefer the Hadcock I now use with my 401 to the 3009S2 but the SME was far better built and easier to set up. It has a lot going for it.
Rare Bird
01-04-2013, 09:24
Paul:
I thought the S2/Impr (Fixed headshell) was 9.5grm effective mass?
Another time I wish I'd kept and cleaned up the old HiFi Sound magazines from the early 70's, since full testing was carried out - apart from audioband resonances since this wasn't an issue back then with the cartridges then available - and effective mass was of paramount importance where Empore 1000ZE-X, ADC 10E-IV/25/26 and XLM etc were concerned.
The arm tube can be a little "lively" in the upper mid, but the headshell gunk, and even a small piece of card-table baize between the cartridge and headshell makes a definite improvement in clarity I found, and the latter way before this was judged important. When I started at KJ in 1974, the Stanton 681EEE and XLM had replaced the V15 III in staff affections, although doing the baize "thing" sweetened the latter no end. As said above, new internal wiring could be considered along with a foam-fill at Audio Origami, but not having done this I can't say just how big the improvement is, if there's one at all after the faffing about...
If you clean it up, try to collect some of the accessories it came with (loads on fleabay at any one time) and then decide to sell it, it's going to cost you a fair bit more to find a truly universal arm to replace it I think. The straight Jelco will be easier to use, but really better? Same for our favourite Jelco, which will enable you to use MC cartridges in fairness, but is a tad too heavy for delicate fixed coil types. Nima, new Funk arm - all will be £500 or more I think.
I've had several SME's including the one you have Paul. It is an S2 improved with nylon bearing as opposed to brass. Some recommend "upgrading" the nylon to a brass bearing but don't be tempted to do this as it'll ruin the sound. The S1 and S2 were different in terms of mass and resonance and fitting a 6.5g arm with the brass bearing can ruin the sound. Brass bearings were fitted to the early S2 improved arms as SME used up their remaining stock (I have one). Nylon bearings were introduced to save costs. It is common consensus that the later use of nylon knife-edge bearings was a downgrade, and if as you say the fitting of a "brass bearing can ruin the sound", why did no-one comment on the, implied, improvement through fitting the nylon bearing?
Improvements are few and far between but one worthwhile improvement if you are considering keeping it (and it's a lovely thing so why not?) is an arm tube re-wire. This is a worthwhile improvement as the original wires can corrode over time plus isn't a very expensive mod. If you were careful and handy at DIY you could do it yourself for very little cost.
The arm, as mentioned, has an effective mass of 6.5g, so is considered a low mass arm. This means that it is best used with higher than average compliance cartridges. That was the sole purpose of the fixed headshell SME design.
It's a good, competent arm but my humble opinion is that it is a little compromised at the frequency extremes. It's still a good alternative to modern budget arms and there's little to wear out.
Just give the arm a damn good clean, and clean the silver-plated pins of the 5-way plug.
With this particular version of the arm, the arm-lift saddle is integral with the vertical bearing, so cannot be replaced by a metal one.
Beobloke
01-04-2013, 13:51
Personally I'd give the SME a damn good clean, send it off to Audio Origami for a re-wire and a check over, buy a Shure M75ED and a Jico stylus (or a V15II or III if you're feeling flush) and enjoy it. You can modify it, tweak it, bodge it and do strange things with it to your heart's content if you so choose but personally I think this is sacrilege. It's a sweet and enjoyable sounding thing as standard and I personally believe that trying to modernise it just makes it into something that still isn't quite up to modern standards but has then lost its mellifluous charm.
As to the Craftsman, if its a family heirloom then use it for cake decorating or as a nice rotating display unit to put a plant on. Just don't play any records on it....
Were the Craftsman decks really that bad Adam?
Just give the arm a damn good clean, and clean the silver-plated pins of the 5-way plug.
With this particular version of the arm, the arm-lift saddle is integral with the vertical bearing, so cannot be replaced by a metal one.
Noted what you said RE the nylon bearings Barry, but there seems to be divided opinion on this. I was tempted to "upgrade" mine with brass knife edged bearing but was warned off doing so by someone with greater knowledge and experience of sme arms than myself. It's apparently a better bet with the heavier arm (9.5g removable headshell version) but not with the S2 fixed headshell unless running very high compliance cartridges. I have heard one with the brass bearing (owner modded) and I'll be honest, I couldn't tell any difference at all between it and the nylon bearing version I was using. We both used Shure M75 carts.
The nylon one was claimed to offer lower friction and in any case, the physical mass of the whole arm-beam assembly including counterweight should gravity load the bearing so it doesn't chatter. Same with the gravity loading on the horizontal bearing races, the vertical play in which, one cannot fully remove I found.
Patrick Dixon
01-04-2013, 15:26
I have an SME S2 imp with a detachable headshell and a damping trough. The damping trough seems to be part of the lift/lower mechanism, but I guess you can run it empty if you want. I was going to give it a try with the 124 once I've got the motor fixed, but since I'm pretty much committed to Deccas now I've also bought a couple of Mayware Formula IVs to play with (Hadcocks seem slightly rarer and more expensive). Hopefully there's enough parts in two Formula IVs to make one decent one ...
So how does the damping trough change the equation? Does it bring other cartridges into play - even a Decca perhaps?
The SME came with a Shure V15 III, so I guess I should give that a try too.
walpurgis
01-04-2013, 16:21
Both the Connoisseur turntable and the SME arm are worth restoring. In a decent solid modern plinth the pair would make a lovely vintage setup.
Be very careful if you try to clean the satin chrome finish on the arm, use NO abasives, the chrome is harder than steel, so I'd suggest a very gentle rub with very fine wire wool with fine oil or WD40 on it. I've used this on vintage chrome items myself and I think you'll find it cleans up well. It can help to rewire, but you may find the results acceptable without, just clean up all signal contact areas.
To round off the turntable system, a good contemporary cartridge in decent order would be nice. A vintage ADC 10E Mk.IV or Shure V15 II or even an Empire 999 of some sort would match suitably in terms of compliance.
The FD200 damper as supplied by SME first time round came with some VERY over-thick fluid, together with oversized paddles, even the smallest one IMO and who needed a cueing device when you could just hold the arm over the run-in groove and let go :mental: My advice is to remove the existing fluid and replace with baby oil. This may be enough, but I used to go one further and shave the paddle down into a point which gives just enough damping to be effective, but without adversely affecting the arm's behaviour. The fluid (SME offered a "reducing fluid" later) and I believe the paddles too, can still be got from SME unless I'm mistaken.
Beobloke
02-04-2013, 09:27
Were the Craftsman decks really that bad Adam?
Well, the Craftsman 2 is at least better than the Craftsman 3 but I personally wouldn't give either house room again.
I wouldn't bother with the sending to Audio Origami personally - going to cost over £100 for the re-wire that you'll probably not hear a difference with and a check over that will either be "yep, everything is ok" or "it will cost £xx" to sort out, in which case it's more money yet you're not sure whether to keep it or not yet.
I'd send things to Johny only after you're set on keeping something and want it to last longer or upgraded to the max.
The SME comes appart very easily (put a bit of electrical tape or similar soft tape over the end of any screw driver you use to prevent scratching the nice shiny screws) and you can clean each piece individually. Of course, you can't take the armtube off without unsoldering the wires at the base but that is simple enough for some - maybe you're ok with a soldering iron too?
Re-wiring is easy enough on these too with kits from ebay, a nice copper litz from Transfi hifi for example is only about £8 with tags and heatsrink tubing. Problems with re-wiring are more when the arm has tight turns where the wire goes or with arms that are hard to take apart (if you can't just pull a new wire through using the old).
Personally I have the impression (unfairly?) of SME 3009s being a little safe sounding, nice but bit boring in some way (I like MC carts so perhaps that's it?) and would prefer say a Hadcock or Mission 774 or nice Syrinx PU2 or whatever else you can find with an SME mount. In a cleaned up condition, your SME would fetch between £150 and £190 on ebay, I'd think depending on how it cleaned up, which is enough to find any of the above with..
I don't know anything about the deck though. Maybe fun to see how well you can get it to perform if you like tinkering. Don't buy a new deck though in my opinion to replace it - a fair amount of cash down the drain in depreciation in my view when decks aren't that complicated to be able to fix if you buy secondhand.
walpurgis
02-04-2013, 10:51
I wouldn't call the SME "safe" sounding Nat.
With fluid damping it can be used with lower compliance cartridges like MCs and Deccas etc., but the headsell and tube are a bit lively. This can show up as brightness or confusion in the sound. SME 3009 series are best used with higher compliance MMs in my experience, as they put less mechanical energy into the arm.
Dingdong
02-04-2013, 10:55
I have a Series 2 knocking about somewhere. I rewired it with vdH MSS7. It was a pretty big improvement.
Then I bought a Hadcock and it completely kicked its arse.
3009's do look nice, but they are really not that good imho.
I have a Series 2 knocking about somewhere. I rewired it with vdH MSS7. It was a pretty big improvement.
Then I bought a Hadcock and it completely kicked its arse.
3009's do look nice, but they are really not that good imho.
Same here. I had an S2 but it was replaced with a Hadcock GH242 which is to my ears the better arm, albeit with several design flaws (cost cutting) which are inexcusable at the cost. The SME is far better built and easier to adjust more accurately for correct set up. the Hadcock bias adjustment is crude in the extreme and the cable block connectors used between wand and tonearm pillar are appalling things. Hadcock bought a job lot of them and if and when the connector breaks, (they are very fragile) a replacement from the limited stock available cost an arm and a leg. I'm going to rewire mine (when time permits) with one straight run of cable between headshell and RCAs and do away with the block connector. That said, they are an excellent tonearm match to the 401.
I wouldn't call the SME "safe" sounding Nat.
With fluid damping it can be used with lower compliance cartridges like MCs and Deccas etc., but the headsell and tube are a bit lively. This can show up as brightness or confusion in the sound. SME 3009 series are best used with higher compliance MMs in my experience, as they put less mechanical energy into the arm.
I guess it depends what we mean and what we like. Certainly I've found them musically good and good in the midrange - kind of flat earth traits? I like more sparkle, air, atmosphere, stage width and depth etc. Could be down to the extremes rounded-off-ness as DSJR expressed.
I'd imagine a knife bearing to exhibit more frequency range limits than other designs but with those frequency limits very dependant on specific design and spec.. kind of a posibility of bearing chatter in a free bearing like that. Hmm... maybe not frequency roll-offs, perhaps just susceptable to certain resonances which then cause roll-off in terms of cancellations if the resonances are wideband enough and in certain ranges. I guess that can also apply to unipivots too although the pressure on the point of a unipivot is much much higher than that spread-out over a knife bearing. This is all imaginary by the way - I've no idea if that's true or not, just combining observation with extrapolation and of course correlation does not mean causation (a common, "common-sense" mistake, especially in hifi!).
Hi guys - could anybody recommend somewhere I could get a reasonably priced plinth made for the craftsman?
Russ Collinson does a great job and isn't expensive. The curvy TD124 plinth he made for hifi dave is extremely good and well finished too IMO..
Re the SME - just use a cartridge suited to the low mass and not-too-rigid design, replace the exit cables with newer alternatives (the old stuff will have gone off a bit by now as my phono-phono set shows) or have the whole thing re-wired and foam-filled by Audio Origami and ALL will be well as long as you don't push the structure hard. By the way, the SME cables of this period often had "loading" capacitors in one pair of plugs. perfect for Shures, but not necessarily for others..
Apologies folks, but any mention of hadcocks has me running for the hills. They fell apart in the era I sold and (had to) set them up, were dreadfully finished from pivot point to arm tube/chrome plated counterweights and these days command stupid prices, both new and used! I don't give a poo if they perform well, but I've had it with such godawful crap as these :lol: A Jelco 750 may not perform quite as well with some cartridges, but it's a damned sight better assembled and finished and with a "Shuggie Collar" fitted, should last reliably for decades, just like the SME...
Russ Collinson does a great job and isn't expensive.
I wouldn't disagree with you on the quality Dave, but I notice that he no longer has any of his budget plinths on the website - only the £500+ stuff. My guess is that he has enough work to be able to concentrate on the higher quality stuff these days - but an email might confirm otherwise - I'll try him.
Layers of Beauty (http://www.layers-of-beauty.co.uk/Page2.html)
I've sent Russ an email, asking for him to clarify and will let you know what he says.
What a bloomin' shame if he's now concentrating on £500+ plinths in exotic finishes :(
Here's me, with a now complete SME 3009 Improved arm with fixed headshell, socketry and plugery complete underneath and a gunked-up V15 III all ready to go on a TD160 with tatty plinth, baulking at under £200 for a box to mount it on! maybe I should try to prise the TD125 back from its current resting place instead ;)
Having recently spoken with an engineer at SME, it seems the development of the nylon bearing saddle was largely a commercial development, that is, the cost of moulding nylon bearings is much cheaper than machining the steel bearing saddle. (Incidently the metal bearing is made of steel, though brass and bronze were tried.)
However the late owner of SME, Alistair Robert-Ackerman, preferred the sound of the nylon bearing; believing that a very small amount of compliance in this region was beneficial. SME though, were always willing and able to replace the nylon bearings with steel if that was what the customer wanted.
It is a complete myth that the knife edge bearings can 'rattle' through excess energy being ducted through the arm. The amount of energy required to lift the dead weight of the arm, counterweight and cartridge off the bearing thrust plate is enormous and impossible to be supplied by the turntable and transmitted through the cantilever and suspension of the cartridge.
One sad piece of news is that SME will now no longer service any arm prior to the Series IV and V designs.
Just had this from Russ Collinson at Layers of Beauty (http://www.layers-of-beauty.co.uk/index.html):
Hi Alex, thanks for contacting me.
I did stop making the sub £200 plinth quite a while ago. These were a kind of hollow box layered plywood design and although they did improve the sound a little I just felt they weren't good value for money when a basic solid birch ply plinth is around £100 or so more and gives a far bigger improvement.
Therefore the most basic plinth I make for the Garrards would be a solid birch ply with no veneers, just a nice shiny wax finish on the plywood at £280. This can be pretty much any size up to 560mm wide x 460mm deep and 100mm high, which is a perfect proportion for the Garrard and 12" arm.
I Hope this helps and please let me know if you have any more questions.
Sounds fair enough - and I must admit I would agree that for most of these turntables all the hollow box design is going to do is look a little prettier than what you've probably already got... The more fancy ones will probably be the same underneath as the solid birch ply ones sonically, but with the classier look of a nice veneer.
One sad piece of news is that SME will now no longer service any arm prior to the Series IV and V designs.
SME like to charge a fortune for their parts and products and bearing in mind the abundance of parted-out III's and earlier at fairly sensible prices, I'm not surprised to be honest..
SME like to charge a fortune for their parts and products and bearing in mind the abundance of parted-out III's and earlier at fairly sensible prices, I'm not surprised to be honest..
According to SME, the reason why they no longer service their early products, is because they don't have a full inventory of replacement parts.
True these parts are available on eBay, but are often put up for auction one at a time, so one has to go through the nausea and stress of making sure you make a winning bid. Very few are sold as BIN.
walpurgis
03-04-2013, 18:47
Hi guys - could anybody recommend somewhere I could get a reasonably priced plinth made for the craftsman?
Why not have a look on eBay for a knackered TT with a good plinth and cover and just mount a rigid new top board into it? I've done it before.
Good idea that re fitting a fresh top plate - and I do appreciate the arm assembly and plastic cradle etc for the series 3 would be nigh on impossible to re-manufacture these days so long after the arm was discontinued...
You know, one of the most effective, functional and non-bling 401 plinths was a stock Bastin one, which had been deeply varnished. Lovely, and didn't look tacky to me at all..
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