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View Full Version : Touch connected to Bushmaster with TT 3.0 or EDO mod?



badsoden
31-03-2013, 16:47
At the moment I have Soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0 (TT3.0) installed on my Touch. I found it improved sound quality when I was using my Touch's internal DAC and connecting directly to my amp. Now I have the Bushmaster I'm wondering about Tirode's Enhanced Digital Output app (EDO). I know the main point of EDO is to utilise a USB DAC and 192KHZ output over digital outputs but I have also heard it can give a general improvement in sound quality. Has anyone used one the other or both of them?

Covenant
31-03-2013, 17:10
Yes, I have used both connected to a Caiman. I stopped using TT3.0 as I found the EDO mod on it's own was fine and a lot easier to install/tweak.

badsoden
31-03-2013, 17:30
Yes, I have used both connected to a Caiman. I stopped using TT3.0 as I found the EDO mod on it's own was fine and a lot easier to install/tweak.

So did you find EDO gave you just as much improvement in sound regardless of 192 files or more than TT3.0?

Covenant
31-03-2013, 20:10
Caimen only goes up to 24/96 I think. I felt the marginal improvement of TT3.0 wasn't worth the hassle once I had EDO installed. USB sounded better than coaxial.

Stratmangler
31-03-2013, 20:16
Caimen only goes up to 24/96 I think. I felt the marginal improvement of TT3.0 wasn't worth the hassle once I had EDO installed. USB sounded better than coaxial.

I thought the USB on the Caiman would only accept up to 16/48 files :scratch:

badsoden
31-03-2013, 20:28
I see, I didn't realise the Caiman had USB. If you didn't have a Caiman with USB would you still have gone for EDO instead of TT3.0? Forgetting the hassle of TT3.0 and USB which gave you better sound quality?

Covenant
31-03-2013, 20:43
Your right Chris, I have a few hires files that don't play.....
I think TT3.0 is marginally better but I didn't do all the mods. For example I kept the display on. There was a stage, a while back, when Logitech was doing updates every couple of weeks and it became a right pain to have to reinstall TT3.0. It was a relief when EDO came along.

Alp
01-04-2013, 17:02
I use both and also have a BM (with a couple of tweaks from Stan). I installed TT3.0 after EDO. I use the standard settings for TT3.0 but keep the IR and display on (could not hear any difference) and use Triode's Display Off app instead. With a coax connection the 3400 buffer setting of TT3.0 works extremely well.

Fi-Wi
01-04-2013, 17:20
Caimen only goes up to 24/96 I think. I felt the marginal improvement of TT3.0 wasn't worth the hassle once I had EDO installed. USB sounded better than coaxial.

In what way does usb sound better? I now have EDO installed on my touch and both coax and optical do sound exactly the same. Can I expect better sq when I use my Touch/EDO using a quality usb cable like Audioquest Cinnamon?

magiccarpetride
01-04-2013, 18:24
At the moment I have Soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0 (TT3.0) installed on my Touch. I found it improved sound quality when I was using my Touch's internal DAC and connecting directly to my amp. Now I have the Bushmaster I'm wondering about Tirode's Enhanced Digital Output app (EDO). I know the main point of EDO is to utilise a USB DAC and 192KHZ output over digital outputs but I have also heard it can give a general improvement in sound quality. Has anyone used one the other or both of them?

I remember when EDO was initially released, its author (Triode) was adamant that it does not/cannot improve the sound quality of the regular format (red book. 16 bit/44.1 kHz). Many early adopters felt otherwise, but their findings were summarily dismissed at that point.

However, Triode seemed to have changed his opinion later on, and seemed willing to accept that his tweaks did bring positive results to the overall sound quality, regardless of the format.

I was the early EDO adopter and was immediately able to hear significant improvements in the sound quality when playing regular low-rez material. I am also using Soundcheck's TT3.0 with all the tweaks on (no wi-fi, screen off, kill daemon jobs, etc.) I find that these two toolkits, when combined, result in the closest approximation to the analog sound that I've ever heard. On top of that, I've also implemented a lot of hand-tweaked configuration changes to the Touch, so I remain convinced that it is possible to approximate analog warmth when playing back digital formats.

The differences (to my ears) between vanilla Touch and the tweaked one are quite notable. Out of the box, Touch into Bushmaster tends to sound somewhat pixelated, cold, with a lot of glare in the highs. Apply the toolkits, do a little bit of hand-tweaking, and most of the harsh digital glare and glassy brittleness disappears. Very much worthwhile the trouble. This is easily verifiable by doing an easy factory reset, listening to a few tracks, then re-applying EDO and TT3.0, and listening again.

Covenant
01-04-2013, 18:53
In what way does usb sound better? I now have EDO installed on my touch and both coax and optical do sound exactly the same. Can I expect better sq when I use my Touch/EDO using a quality usb cable like Audioquest Cinnamon?

USB has more 'punch' IMHO-a crisper presentation. It was an immediate and noticeable difference, not gone back to coax since installing EDO. With regard to a USB cable, I use a cheap Belkin. I have thought about getting a posh one but I suspect it wont make much difference. I certainly wouldn't pay Furatech prices, maybe a Supra-MCRU sell them ;).

Canetoad
02-04-2013, 07:15
I have an MCRU Supra cable with Eichmann cu plugs you can borrow to try Jerry. PM me your address details and I'll pop it in the mail.

Covenant
02-04-2013, 09:10
Many thanks Bernie, P.M sent.

MartinT
02-04-2013, 09:34
Using a Touch with EDO here into my Bushmaster via co-ax, playing every format up to 24/192. The EDO app most definitely enhances overall sound, so it's not just for USB. I would say that disabling analogue outputs and all the unnecessary crap really helps the Touch to give a good performance. Some of my 24/96 hi-res files streamed from the PC sound very impressive indeed, and even Spotify with High Quality Streaming enabled sounds pretty reasonable.

Fi-Wi
02-04-2013, 10:52
Please post your findings in this thread Jerry. I might consider a Supra cable as well.

StanleyB
02-04-2013, 11:32
Some of my 24/96 hi-res files streamed from the PC sound very impressive indeed, and even Spotify with High Quality Streaming enabled sounds pretty reasonable.
Is that with or without the experimental MCU for the BM?

MartinT
02-04-2013, 11:59
With, Stan. It was pretty good before, but simply superb now.

StanleyB
02-04-2013, 12:07
OK. Thanks for the ... ;).

badsoden
02-04-2013, 13:18
The differences (to my ears) between vanilla Touch and the tweaked one are quite notable. Out of the box, Touch into Bushmaster tends to sound somewhat pixelated, cold, with a lot of glare in the highs. Apply the toolkits, do a little bit of hand-tweaking, and most of the harsh digital glare and glassy brittleness disappears. Very much worthwhile the trouble. This is easily verifiable by doing an easy factory reset, listening to a few tracks, then re-applying EDO and TT3.0, and listening again.

I have TT3.0 fully implemented and noticed a difference straight away, killing the daemons really surprised me! I did read about people having both installed and working but also read that they were incompatible. Why did you install EDO first, is that a recommended approach?

badsoden
02-04-2013, 14:55
Is that with or without the experimental MCU for the BM?

What's the experimental MCU?!?

StanleyB
02-04-2013, 15:01
What's the experimental MCU?!?
The question was for Martin and he has already answered it :).

badsoden
02-04-2013, 15:30
The question was for Martin and he has already answered it :).

Yes it was but I'm being nosey and experimental was used and I can't resist that!! :)

magiccarpetride
02-04-2013, 17:56
I have TT3.0 fully implemented and noticed a difference straight away, killing the daemons really surprised me! I did read about people having both installed and working but also read that they were incompatible. Why did you install EDO first, is that a recommended approach?

To be honest, I did so many installs/re-installs etc., that I've forgotten about the actual sequence. I believe I've originally had TT3.0 installed and then just installed EDO on top of that, and I think it worked just fine.

My approach was to tweak the living bejeezus out of my digital transport until I've achieved the desired results, after which I froze the Touch. Meaning, I've disabled any automatic updates and such. So now I have a 'legacy' transport box that is sitting quietly in the corner and cheerfully pumping bits into the Bushmaster.

If you're into it, you can achieve interesting results by messing with task priorities/buffer sizes on the Touch (be careful, it can be a slippery slope). This is now venturing into the personal taste territory, but it is possible to dial in certain degree of 'softness/hardness' into the resulting sound. Almost like playing with sharpness/contrast when using Photoshop. I personally prefer the analog-like warm softening of the sound, but I've also been able to experience other effects when changing the priorities/buffer size. As with any EQ-like device, everyone eventually settles on something that pleases their ears...

badsoden
02-04-2013, 18:02
To be honest, I did so many installs/re-installs etc., that I've forgotten about the actual sequence. I believe I've originally had TT3.0 installed and then just installed EDO on top of that, and I think it worked just fine.

My approach was to tweak the living bejeezus out of my digital transport until I've achieved the desired results, after which I froze the Touch. Meaning, I've disabled any automatic updates and such. So now I have a 'legacy' transport box that is sitting quietly in the corner and cheerfully pumping bits into the Bushmaster.

If you're into it, you can achieve interesting results by messing with task priorities/buffer sizes on the Touch (be careful, it can be a slippery slope). This is now venturing into the personal taste territory, but it is possible to dial in certain degree of 'softness/hardness' into the resulting sound. Almost like playing with sharpness/contrast when using Photoshop. I personally prefer the analog-like warm softening of the sound, but I've also been able to experience other effects when changing the priorities/buffer size. As with any EQ-like device, everyone eventually settles on something that pleases their ears...

I installed EDO this afternoon on top of TT3.0 that I installed a few months ago. I notice that EDO has reset the buffer to 20000, have you set it back to 4000 or something different? What other things have you tried?

magiccarpetride
02-04-2013, 18:30
I installed EDO this afternoon on top of TT3.0 that I installed a few months ago. I notice that EDO has reset the buffer to 20000, have you set it back to 4000 or something different? What other things have you tried?

I was playing a lot with the buffer size. Pushing the boundaries. There comes a point where you must juggle other parameters in order to accommodate different buffer sizes. Lots of trial-and-error. I was getting to the point where I would be increasing the buffer size while juggling some other parameters, such as priorities, and what that was apparently giving me is more slam, which I really like. However, the most optimal configuration would end up being quite volatile. Meaning, the Touch would play and the sound was gorgeous, but then after a few minutes it would just die. Only hard reboot would bring it back to life, but it couldn't cope with extreme conditions I was putting it under.

Eventually, I was forced to settle for a compromise -- lose some of the slam in order to gain stability.

'Objectivists' claim this is crazy talk because bits are bits (ones and zeros with no possibility for any in-between nuances), but to my ears, it makes an audible difference when it comes to how you configure the processor that's pumping those bits into the DAC.

badsoden
02-04-2013, 18:45
I was playing a lot with the buffer size. Pushing the boundaries. There comes a point where you must juggle other parameters in order to accommodate different buffer sizes. Lots of trial-and-error. I was getting to the point where I would be increasing the buffer size while juggling some other parameters, such as priorities, and what that was apparently giving me is more slam, which I really like. However, the most optimal configuration would end up being quite volatile. Meaning, the Touch would play and the sound was gorgeous, but then after a few minutes it would just die. Only hard reboot would bring it back to life, but it couldn't cope with extreme conditions I was putting it under.

Eventually, I was forced to settle for a compromise -- lose some of the slam in order to gain stability.

'Objectivists' claim this is crazy talk because bits are bits (ones and zeros with no possibility for any in-between nuances), but to my ears, it makes an audible difference when it comes to how you configure the processor that's pumping those bits into the DAC.

I followed Souncheck's advice on file settings did you have to change any of those with EDO installed?

magiccarpetride
02-04-2013, 18:58
I installed EDO this afternoon on top of TT3.0 that I installed a few months ago. I notice that EDO has reset the buffer to 20000, have you set it back to 4000 or something different? What other things have you tried?

Oh, one more thing -- some people have been complaining that certain versions/releases of EDO sound inferior to some other versions. I forgot the details, but it may be useful if you read through the EDO thread. I've settled with the version that everyone seems to agree on is good sounding. However, that version is tightly coupled with the Linux kernel on the Touch, so it's not recommended to allow factory resets/updates.

Life in the big city...

magiccarpetride
02-04-2013, 19:00
I followed Souncheck's advice on file settings did you have to change any of those with EDO installed?

Sorry, this is not fresh in my memory -- which file settings are you referring to?

badsoden
02-04-2013, 19:47
Oh, one more thing -- some people have been complaining that certain versions/releases of EDO sound inferior to some other versions. I forgot the details, but it may be useful if you read through the EDO thread. I've settled with the version that everyone seems to agree on is good sounding. However, that version is tightly coupled with the Linux kernel on the Touch, so it's not recommended to allow factory resets/updates.

Life in the big city...

The reason I ask about file settings on the server side is that I seem to be having problems playing certain 24bit files that were fine before I added EDO. Anything over 48 KHz sample rate doesn't play. I changed the Flac setting to native and it works now.

magiccarpetride
02-04-2013, 19:50
The reason I ask about file settings on the server side is that I seem to be having problems playing certain 24bit files that were fine before I added EDO. Anything over 48 KHz sample rate doesn't play. I changed the Flac setting to native and it works now.

Not sure why would EDO affect those. High rez formats can be a challenge if you're using wi fi or your server is slow... So converting FLAC to PCM on the server may introduce hiccups on a clunky old PC.

badsoden
02-04-2013, 19:54
Not sure why would EDO affect those. High rez formats can be a challenge if you're using wi fi or your server is slow... So converting FLAC to PCM on the server may introduce hiccups on a clunky old PC.

Wired connection from server to Touch through a gigabit switch.

I found this error in the logs 'Slim::Player::Song:: open (409) Error: Couldn't create command line for flc playback for'

badsoden
02-04-2013, 20:56
It would appear that the file settings for TT3.0 aren't compatible with EDO so Flac has to set to native.

Is that how you have yours set?

magiccarpetride
02-04-2013, 21:29
It would appear that the file settings for TT3.0 aren't compatible with EDO so Flac has to set to native.

Is that how you have yours set?

I would have to go back and double-check, but I think you're probably right. I'm not using many FLACs though...

MartinT
03-04-2013, 05:59
I don't see the point of running both TT and EDO. They both subscribe to the low overhead model so try them both out and settle on one.

Canetoad
03-04-2013, 09:39
The reason I ask about file settings on the server side is that I seem to be having problems playing certain 24bit files that were fine before I added EDO. Anything over 48 KHz sample rate doesn't play. I changed the Flac setting to native and it works now.

The reason for this is because with EDO mod conversion can't be done on the Touch, but has to be done on the server. It has to receive the file in flac format to be able to deal with playing > 24/96 files. That's how I understand it anyway. :scratch:

badsoden
03-04-2013, 09:52
The reason for this is because with EDO mod conversion can't be done on the Touch, but has to be done on the server. It has to receive the file in flac format to be able to deal with playing > 24/96 files. That's how I understand it anyway. :scratch:

You're right, the TT3.0 mod tries to remove as much load and processing from the Touch itself so moves the file decoding to the server which isn't compatible with how EDO works.

I do feel the combination of the two, TT3.0 & EDO, work well together but it's difficult not having two units side by side to test properly. I have both running at the moment and it does sound great!

MartinT
03-04-2013, 10:10
With EDO I send the 24/96 and 24/192 files in native WAV format and they play fine.

Fi-Wi
04-04-2013, 16:51
Please post your findings in this thread Jerry. I might consider a Supra cable as well.

Hell, why wait for others' ears when your own are decisive. I just ordered the Supra. :lol:

Fi-Wi
10-04-2013, 11:04
I received the Supra yesterday (thanks David) but in all honesty I cannot hear a difference between the USB with EDO plugin and the optical/coax attached to my Caiman.

Unfortunately you cannot A/B-switch without a pause between usb and coax/optical since the SBT has to boot up everytime you switch the digital outputs.

Maybe I hear a fraction more of detail and space but I cannot tell whether I really hear that or it is just a case of psychic accoustics.

I will do some more testing this weekend.