Barnsley bans under 16s???

[julesd68]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/barnsley-bans-under-16s-town-night-154049258.html#JNFC63l

Surely this is "illegal" and unethical - first step towards a police state? :(

[Ali Tait]

Don't see how that can be legal?

[synsei]

This is a pre-emptive move by Barnsley council. Once the Bedroom Tax kicks in on Tuesday all hell is going to break loose as people finally realise what it will mean and how hard it is going to hit them. Those living in social housing and on a low income are going to be hit hardest of all by this heinous bit of legislation, yet another example of this government attacking the less well off. VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!! :guns:

[julesd68]

It is Thatcher and the '80s all over again ... Grim.

[twickers]

The police will have a busy night if every under 16 turned up. It's unworkable.

[synsei]

This is far worse than the Thatcher years Julian, it is an outright attack on the poor and disadvantaged. Please note that the rich aren't suffering at all during this so called crisis. Corporate and finance supremos are becoming so emboldened during this crisis that they engineered, that they are attacking entire states now. Just look at what is happening to Greece and Cyprus. Next will be Italy and Spain, mark my words. We really need to open our eyes to see what is truly going on here. Large corporations and financiers are making a landgrab, pure and simple.

p.s. The Gold Lion ECC88 turned up safe and sound this morning Julian, thank you ;) Just need another now as one of my Mullards went pop :(

[Tarzan]

Thought they would have brushed this under the carpet- like some other stuff that goes on up there..........................

[julesd68]

This is far worse than the Thatcher years Julian, it is an outright attack on the poor and disadvantaged. Please note that the rich aren't suffering at all during this so called crisis. Corporate and finance supremos are becoming so emboldened during this crisis that they engineered, that they are attacking entire states now. Just look at what is happening to Greece and Cyprus. Next will be Italy and Spain, mark my words. We really need to open our eyes to see what is truly going on here. Large corporations and financiers are making a landgrab, pure and simple.

p.s. The Gold Lion ECC88 turned up safe and sound this morning Julian, thank you ;) Just need another now as one of my Mullards went pop :(

Blimey that tube took its time!

I know all about what's going on in Greece - my in-laws and family are really suffering over there.

Don't understand your point about "large corporations and financiers making a landgrab" - what do you mean by that?

[Markiii]

what has this to do with the bedroom tax (daft name as it is) link won't work?

but how there is anything unfair about those whose housing is paid for by the state being asked to downsize if they aren't using its full capacity is beyond me

[synsei]

Blimey that tube took its time!

I know all about what's going on in Greece - my in-laws and family are really suffering over there.

Don't understand your point about "large corporations and financiers making a landgrab" - what do you mean by that?

My bad, of course I meant powergrab :doh:

[walpurgis]

what has this to do with the bedroom tax (daft name as it is) link won't work?


but how there is anything unfair about those whose housing is paid for by the state being asked to downsize if they aren't using its full capacity is beyond me

It's "beyond you"? Think about it.

How do you cope with thousands of people trying to find smaller accomodation? How do local authorities and housing associations cope with thousands of tennants all asking to downsize. Who rehouses those who can't meet their rents due to the cuts. Should those who can't pay be out on the streets?

It's unworkable crap from a government that should have been strung up a long way back!

It's not just benefit scroungers being affected, there are huge numbers of decent, honest people on low incomes (many in essential services) who will be hit terribly by this.

[synsei]

I'd go further Geoff. The entire Benefits Scrounger myth was concocted by this government to empower them to take the action that they have. They have turned citizen against citizen as efficiently as the Nazi's ever did, they are utterly disgusting. There are those who live off the state and have never worked a day in their lives and these people are beyond contempt IMO. However the government have deployed their propaganda campaign against all benefit claimants masterfully and now those with more prejudices than sense have chomped down upon the fat, juicy worm the government have cast into the citizens mill pond and they are now eagerly doing the governments job for them :steam:

The economy is fucked already, Tuesday will be when this bunch of clowns flush the remaining good bits down the toilet... :steam:

This is no longer a United Kingdom... :(

[walpurgis]

Wanna join my 'Revolutionary Liberation Army' Dave?

[synsei]

Lead on McDuff... :cool:

I have had my daughter ans son-in-law crying there eyes out in my house today. They both work in the service industry and like many of us they are sailing close to the wind due to easy credit. On Thursday they were told that they would have to find an extra 120 odd pound a month to stay in their current house. They have two kids (my grandchildren obviously) and yet they have been told they are only entitled to a one bedroom flat because the kids are under 5yrs old. They currently live in a three bedroomed council terrace. I am incandescent with rage... I want to kill someone... :steam:

[walpurgis]

I can guess how you feel about it all Dave.

Political scheming just to increasingly disenfrachise the working man even more all the time is disgusting. Their aim is to have an enslaved nation in all but name.

There's no easy (legal) way to get back at them though. At least that old bag Thatcher's days are numbered, she'll kick the bucket soon (and then we'll have all her old cronies going on about how "marvellous" she was, despite having led this country into the previous recession).

[synsei]

I am sorry to rant guys but this has really upset me. I never used to be a political animal until Thatcher sunk her teeth into the nation. The only thing that saved her bacon the first time around was the Falklands War, which she used to her advantage like a pro.

This administration is even worse in my book. I want to rip Cameron's fucking head off, I really do. If he visits my home town in the next few months then watch the news, because I will be centre stage :chainsaw:

[walpurgis]

My contact at Special Branch tells me your house is being watched as we speak!

[synsei]

You may be right but I couldn't care less. My kids are far more important to me than some fake, Eton educated gayboy.

[walpurgis]

Don't get me started. There are so many people taking the piss and getting away with it. I'm just hoping one day they get what should be coming! I'd like a hand in that.

[Macca]

but how there is anything unfair about those whose housing is paid for by the state being asked to downsize if they aren't using its full capacity is beyond me

In principle I agree but asking a family of four to move to a 1 bedroom flat is ridiculous. Plus Dave says they do work so they are being subsidised rather than paid for outright. Unfortunately subsidised housing is a necessity in parts of the country where rents/prices are very high but wages for many are quite low.

I've no issue with them moving all those who don't work out of the south-east to free up subsidised housing for those who do work but are on low wages. A lot of those affected are moaning about that. Of course if they got of their arses and worked then they could determine their own futures rather than relying on the state to wipe their arses and then complaining when they don't like how it's being done.

As for getting into financial trouble due to easy credit - no sympathy from me on that one. One thing Thatcher got right (and there were several) was that people should take responsibility for their own actions. I paid off my debt in the good times rather than running it up more. If the previous government had done the same we wouldn't be in this mess now.

The root of the problem is that the government has no business being a landlord in the first place. I find the idea of renting your house from the State a bit creepy, almost like living in Soviet Russia.

[Markiii]

it works fine if you only charge people where they have an option to move and don't take it.

Obviously if there is no property to move to then it would be foolish at best and quite unfair, however has anyone yet said that they will penalise people who have nowhere to move to?

[Markiii]

As for getting into financial trouble due to easy credit - no sympathy from me on that one. One thing Thatcher got right (and there were several) was that people should take responsibility for their own actions. I paid off my debt in the good times rather than running it up more. If the previous government had done the same we wouldn't be in this mess now.

.

Amen

the availability of easy credit doesn't compel people to take it, borrow more than you can sensibly afford and its no one else's fault

[JazzBones]

Lead on McDuff... :cool:


I am incandescent with rage... I want to kill someone... :steam:


How about Lloyds bank paying a bonus of £40Million to 23 execs (do correct me if I'm wrong) for a bank that made a loss, mistakes and had to be bailed out by the tax payer... I see no evidence that the rich and very very rich are feeling the same difficulties that ordinary Joe and Jill are experiencing? Wheres the 'We're all in this together'? Unfortunately, those that govern us no longer have the threat of a Russian or French style revolution to contend with, shame about that :(

I have always voted Tory; I shall no longer vote Tory, I have been betrayed!

[walpurgis]

I just watched Tory MP Grant Shapps on the news, spouting his rubbish with a moronic smirk on his face. Going on about how the new measures were a good thing. I'd get better personal protection if I were him. I can see a lot of people feeling inclined to give the little p***k a beating. Have we really got creatures like him running the country?

[walpurgis]

[QUOTE=JazzBones;428742][/HTML]Unfortunately, those that govern us no longer have the threat of a Russian or French style revolution to contend with, shame about that :(QUOTE]

Don't be too sure about that. It may be a way off yet, but one day the scum that abuse the country and its people will be held to acount!

[Haselsh1]

As far as I can see, no one in the UK who works for a living can afford to vote tory.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

As far as I can see, no one in the UK who works for a living can afford to vote tory.

I find it incredible that anyone votes Tories.

[Macca]

I find it incredible that anyone votes Tories.

I agree this government has been a disappointment so far but would you really have preferred five more years of Gordon Brown? That was a horror. I would have sold up and left if he had been returned.

UKIP seem to be a credible alternative, I am sceptical but they may still get my support.

[synsei]

There are those who think they are so anally perfect everybody else must be an arse. Where credit is offered and at which time it is needed, I reckon most reasonable people who have a life would take it. Had the government been more open about what they intended to do I am sure my daughter and her husband would have made every effort to pay off their debts. Sadly the Tory ethic pervades society these days and there will always be those who think they are better than you. Those people are in for a shock however because this time they will be standing somewhat closer to the fan blades when the shit hits them...

[Macca]

Dave

I agree that credit was too easily and indiscrimenately available. Personally I have always been financially astute (although I was properly poor until I was in my early thirties and am certainly not rich now). I have seen some young married couples live the dream and get into debt they could not afford as a consequence, so I do sympathise to an extent. What bugs me though is that there is this infant school mentality of screwing it all up and then hiding under a pile of coats and hoping it all goes away. It happens but it should not be encouraged

[Audioman]

Lead on McDuff... :cool:

I have had my daughter ans son-in-law crying there eyes out in my house today. They both work in the service industry and like many of us they are sailing close to the wind due to easy credit. On Thursday they were told that they would have to find an extra 120 odd pound a month to stay in their current house. They have two kids (my grandchildren obviously) and yet they have been told they are only entitled to a one bedroom flat because the kids are under 5yrs old. They currently live in a three bedroomed council terrace. I am incandescent with rage... I want to kill someone... :steam:

The rules are that two children under 10 of ether sex have to share a room. So in the case of your family they should get benefit for a 2 bed property. Looks like a misinterpretation of the law if facts are right. My personal view of all this is the savings may not be worth all the extra admin. Advice is to appeal or see your MP. The truth is that twats in councils usually make an ass of anything like that or some little Hitler gets carried away. The fact is not many people will move as there is not enough social housing to shuffle them around. Prepare to see some more back peddling by ministers down the line and don't expect any future labour government to reverse anything.

While I appreciate the need to reduce deficit some of these measures have little long term benefit. Unfortunately all efforts to reduce the deficit are chipping away at the edges. Frankly size of the public sector should have been cut far more 2 years ago as well as Cameron's sacrosanct overseas aid budget and a certain amount of the health budget. The NHS has now been revealed as completely mismanaged in terms of focusing on service and still full of incompetent bullies for managers. There is lots of waste and inefficiency that could be rooted out with little to no effect on standard of care.

The Cameron obsession of giving billions to dodgy governments while cutting relatively trivial amounts in some benefits shows crass ignorance and a focus on political correctness in the face of the welfare and views of a large sector of the population including his own party. The gay marriage row is another major example. Frankly Cameron is going to end up pissing of as many groups of people as the Clowns Gordon Brown and Tony Blair did before him. At least he hasn't started an illegal war but there won't be enough troops left soon to do so.

I don't go along with the idea there was a deliberate campaign to brand people receiving benefit as scroungers. The 'shirkers and workers' rhetoric was actually dropped pretty quickly and hasn't figured in all this. The sad thing is that the unlimited benefits of the past actually drove up private rents. Some rents could only be afforded by the highest earners if those properties had not been set up to milk benefit claimants.

Unfortunately wishing for the present government to go only to be replaced by the incompetents that caused the problems in the first place is not the answer. At the moment there is no credible political figure to replace Cameron that one could have any faith in to improve the present economic situation.

Back to the Barnsley ban farce. It is always difficult to tell if this has been twisted by the left wing press. I doubt police have the legal powers or it is actually enforcible. It does point to the desirability of a national police force as has just started in Scotland where the law is applied evenly across the country.

[synsei]

The rules are that two children under 10 of ether sex have to share a room. So in the case of your family they should get benefit for a 2 bed property. Looks like a misinterpretation of the law if facts are right. My personal view of all this is the savings may not be worth all the extra admin. Advice is to appeal or see your MP. The truth is that twats in councils usually make an ass of anything like that or some little Hitler gets carried away. The fact is not many people will move as there is not enough social housing to shuffle them around. Prepare to see some more back peddling by ministers down the line and don't expect any future labour government to reverse anything.

While I appreciate the need to reduce deficit some of these measures have little long term benefit. Unfortunately all efforts to reduce the deficit are chipping away at the edges. Frankly size of the public sector should have been cut far more 2 years ago as well as Cameron's sacrosanct overseas aid budget and a certain amount of the health budget. The NHS has now been revealed as completely mismanaged in terms of focusing on service and still full of incompetent bullies for managers. There is lots of waste and inefficiency that could be rooted out with little to no effect on standard of care.

The Cameron obsession of giving billions to dodgy governments while cutting relatively trivial amounts in some benefits shows crass ignorance and a focus on political correctness in the face of the welfare and views of a large sector of the population including his own party. The gay marriage row is another major example. Frankly Cameron is going to end up pissing of as many groups of people as the Clowns Gordon Brown and Tony Blair did before him. At least he hasn't started an illegal war but there won't be enough troops left soon to do so.

I don't go along with the idea there was a deliberate campaign to brand people receiving benefit as scroungers. The 'shirkers and workers' rhetoric was actually dropped pretty quickly and hasn't figured in all this. The sad thing is that the unlimited benefits of the past actually drove up private rents. Some rents could only be afforded by the highest earners if those properties had not been set up to milk benefit claimants.

Unfortunately wishing for the present government to go only to be replaced by the incompetents that caused the problems in the first place is not the answer. At the moment there is no credible political figure to replace Cameron that one could have any faith in to improve the present economic situation.

Back to the Barnsley ban farce. It is always difficult to tell if this has been twisted by the left wing press. I doubt police have the legal powers or it is actually enforcible. It does point to the desirability of a national police force as has just started in Scotland where the law is applied evenly across the country.

Needless to say I disagree with almost every word of the above. Paul, you need to step into the real world mate. Try living on the breadline for a couple of years in today's Britain and you will soon change your tune.

[Rare Bird]

Dave:
Apart from the Bedroom taxation can i ask what exactly is cheesing you off?

[Audioman]

Needless to say I disagree with almost every word of the above. Paul, you need to step into the real world mate. Try living on the breadline for a couple of years in today's Britain and you will soon change your tune.

Dave.

Frankly I haven't said anything to contradict your stated views. Just think you should check out the rules. Frankly I am pretty neutral as to the fairness of all this. As I pointed out there are other easier ways the government could save this money. The problem here is the government has got itself into the position of effectively subsidising landlords and employers who pay too little.

For your information I have suffered long periods of unemployment and am quite familiar with the benefit system. The idea of increasing benefits to subsidise those working and live in expensive areas is probably impossible to finance in the long term. I feel the same way about child allowance and other universal benefits that are still paid to people with relatively large incomes. Same goes for the proposed subing of nursery fees for people people earning well over £100K. I'm baffled why most politicians lack basic common sense.

Just glad we don't find ourselves in the same situation as Greece and Cyprus. Also a lot of people will be paying little or no tax with the 10K allowance though this should be around 15K IMO. It's pretty daft taking money from people and then handing it out again. There are also some other sneaky rises in Council tax re second homes and empty properties which should please you given your obvious political views. I expect you will have as many gripes about the system if that other posh boy tosser Ed M gets to run the country.

Paul.

[Macca]

Need less to say I agree with pretty much all of Paul's post. I'd add that in addition to cancelling foreign aid until we can afford it again. Quitting the EU would free up another 40 odd billion a year. That would give almost 60 billion that could be put into tax cuts, not for the rich but for everyone by reducing the stealth taxes that kill commerce - VAT, fuel duty and employer's NI contributions. That alone would improve everyone's standard of living immediately and have far reaching positive consequences.

I spent from 1987 to 1999 living on the breadline. It failed to convince me that Socialism is the answer, in fact I came to the conclusion it is actually the main problem.

As to the Barnsley 'curfew' it is a non-story. It does not prevent under 16s going anywhere but if they get rowdy or anti-social the police will disperse them. In other words what you would expect already happens but doesn't because the police would rather sit in their patrol cars or in the station house instead of getting into confrontations on the street.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Reading some of the posts on here it explains why so many useless politicians of all parties are milking the country and conning the electorate. People are content to just get by and happy that the ruling classes take the piss. Ordinary working people should NEVER vote Tory. End of.

[Markiii]

Ordinary working people pay tax,

So any government taking their money, needs to be mindful what they spend it on,

Benefits are designed to stop people starving and being out on the streets, not to give them the same standard of living as those paying for the benefits

So a government borrowing billions they don't have to give it away isn't the interest of those ordinary working people either

So much for voting labour being in the interest of ordinary working people either

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

8705

This sums it up. Vote Tory and you can expect this and a whole lot more.

Triple dip recession on the way.

Millions of young people without jobs.

Thousands of graduates working in crap jobs.

More and more people in part time work.

More and more people on minimum wage or a few pennies above just to help fiddle the stats.

The gap between rich and poor getting wider.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.

PS New Labour are just Tories in red ties. Lib Dems will be wiped out at next election. UKIP just right wing xenophobic Tories. What a choice.

[Audioman]

8705

This sums it up. Vote Tory and you can expect this and a whole lot more.

Triple dip recession on the way.

Millions of young people without jobs.

Thousands of graduates working in crap jobs.

More and more people in part time work.

More and more people on minimum wage or a few pennies above just to help fiddle the stats.

The gap between rich and poor getting wider.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.

PS New Labour are just Tories in red ties. Lib Dems will be wiped out at next election. UKIP just right wing xenophobic Tories. What a choice.

Latest predictions are a triple dip recession will be avoided.

Didn't the gap between rich and poor increase substantially over 13 years of labour government ?

Low wages are in a large part due to immigration and the dominance of service industries. Not something that's happened since 2010.

Agree lack of quality jobs for graduates but it will take years to turn this round. Too many degree students has undermined the value of degrees. More vocational training is needed and an incentive to employ trainees for proper pay. A lot of this problem is historical and is at the door of the overpaid leaders of UK companies.

Easy to blame this government but they can't control how everything in the economy works unless you want a Stalinist society. Previous governments thought you could run economy on banks and service industries. That is why we are in the present mess.

Harry, does sound like you are still sucking Mandelsons lemons. :D

Paul.

[walpurgis]

Harry,

I really hate the phrase "wake up and smell the coffee", sorry mate!

I don't disagree with your views though.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Paul, don't disagree with much of what you say but I'm certainly not sucking Mandelson's lemons if what you imply by that is that I'm a Labour supporter. I detest New Labour almost as much as I detest the Tories.

No need for the explanation of what went wrong. I was there. After a lifetime in journalism and three years of political journalism for a national newspaper you learn a bit.

The facts.

1. More than one million young people unemployed.

2. Triple dip recession weeks away

3. Huge number of 'working poor' having to claim benefits.

4. Record number of people in part time work.

5. Inflation and low interest rates is effectively a tax on retired people.

6. Tens of thousands of graduates working in shops, bars, coffee shops, burger places.

7. Big public sector job losses still to come.

8. British manufacturing and exporting in terminal decline.

9. Number of children living in poverty rising at shocking rate.

10. Number of homeless rising.

I could go on . . .

New Labour helped cause it. The Tories are making it much, much worse and the Lib Dems are complicit in their evil work.

Hope that clears it up.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Geoff, my apologies. I hate that phrase as well. Apologies. I was in a hurry.

[Clive]

Needless to say I disagree with almost every word of the above. Paul, you need to step into the real world mate. Try living on the breadline for a couple of years in today's Britain and you will soon change your tune.
Try doing it in the US or many other countries where there's much less support from public funds.

[StanleyB]

Low wages are in a large part due to immigration and the dominance of service industries. Not something that's happened since 2010.
Low wages existed as far back as I can remember. The immigrants that came from the colonies to work on the busses, underground and trains would smile in irony at the wages now commanded by people doing that job at present. The nursing profession needed an influx of immigrants to work in the NHS since the locals were not prepared to do such menial task unless they were doctors and surgeons.

Of course our Polish friends are in the EU and are therefore not immigrants. But are they asking for a fair pay after a fair day's work? My previous Irish builder charged me a fortune and took two years to complete work on my property that he estimated to take six months. The Polish builder quoted me far less and was here every morning on time and stayed on site all day. I could not get that kind of work commitment from a British builder.

[Macca]

The facts.

1. More than one million young people unemployed.
Well the young Polish lads who live in my neighbourhood are not unemployed but then they are not afraid to do a day's work. Too many of these kids think that they deserve a glamourous, well paid job rather than taking what they can get. Plenty of warehousing jobs around my way, all taken by Polish.

2. Triple dip recession weeks away
Maybe, but less relevant than you might think.

3. Huge number of 'working poor' having to claim benefits.
A result of the last government's plan to make working people dependant on the state

4. Record number of people in part time work.
Probably because it suits their circumstances for most of them. I tried to get a part-time job back in 2006 - nothing going anyhere. Ended up I had to get a full time job.

5. Inflation and low interest rates is effectively a tax on retired people.
Very true, no argument there

6. Tens of thousands of graduates working in shops, bars, coffee shops, burger places.
Should have done a proper degree then instead of some mickey mouse qualification. My degree never got me a fancy job either. I worked my way up from the bottom instead. Maybe they are doing the same.

7. Big public sector job losses still to come.
I very much doubt it but if so then that would be fantastic - way too many non-jobs in the public sector.

8. British manufacturing and exporting in terminal decline.
A classic but forgivable mistake - in fact manufacturing output in this country has risen every decade since the industrial revolution. it just employs a lot less people than it used to.

9. Number of children living in poverty rising at shocking rate.
No-one lives in poverty in this country. Unless you mean relative poverty. And if you do then I'm afraid that means there are millionaires in Monaco who are, by that definition, living in poverty.

10. Number of homeless rising.
Source for this?

[Clive]

The only low paid employment areas I have direct experience of are:

1) hand car washes - the ones I've used are mainly run with eastern european labour, the idea is good, so much better than mechanical car washes. Many garages now don't bother to maintain their mechanical car washes, they get the manual labour in.

2) home cleaning - we're struggled over many years to find local cleaners and when we do they are not very good. Our previous cleaner was Romanian, very good indeed. Our current cleaner is from a French colony (they are as imperialist as ourselves), again she's very good and very industrious. We pay £10 per hour, which is more than the norm but we want to reward a good job.

This is hardly a statistically significant sample but UK workers (or non-workers) don't come out of it well. My feeling is that it's down to cultural expectations, ie the state will look after me. Of course by no means all UK indigenous people out of work think this way but an unreasonable proportion seem to.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Clive, bit of advice for you mate. How about washing your own car and doing your own cleaning? When our three children were young my wife and myself both had very demanding jobs (I worked sixty hours a week and ran a part time business). Never did we consider employing people to do cleaning and car washing.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Macca, keep reading the Daily Mail. You are so misinformed and blinkered it's actually worrying.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

By the way Macca, you're too arrogant to believe this but every single one of the points you raised us either ridiculously anecdotal bullshit or just plain wrong. When I have time I'll demolish every single one if them. And you know what? You'll still live in your blinkered world. I'm tempted to mention coffee and aromas but we hate that one.

[Clive]

Clive, bit of advice for you mate. How about washing your own car and doing your own cleaning? When our three children were young my wife and myself both had very demanding jobs (I worked sixty hours a week and ran a part time business). Never did we consider employing people to do cleaning and car washing.
Thank you Harry for your advice. If you must know.....

1) Re car cleaning, mostly I do wash my own car (because I do it best and it's black) but not 100% of the time.

2) Both my wife and myself have demanding jobs and in addition I travel a lot. Our house is relatively large (6 bedrooms, 4 floors) so 3 hours per week from a cleaner helps us keep on top of it. £10 per hour is great value as I earn one heck of a lot more than £10 per hour. If stopped work to clean the house it would cost me money.

[StanleyB]

By the way Macca, you're too arrogant to believe this but every single one of the points you raised us either ridiculously anecdotal bullshit or just plain wrong. When I have time I'll demolish every single one if them. And you know what? You'll still live in your blinkered world. I'm tempted to mention coffee and aromas but we hate that one.
I have to agree with many of the points made by Macca. Especially with regards to the Polish workers. When I worked in Bedford I had problems getting local workers to take up a job in the warehouse. One of the local drug dealers even laughed at me in a job interview. He claimed he could make more from being on the dole and selling drugs 9 to 5 than the £1000 a month I was offering to him to stack boxes from 9 to 5. But when the Poles arrived those vacant jobs were quickly filled.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

More and more Daily Mail anecdotal bullshit. Lazy British workers won't have it etc etc. True, some won't. But not all.

Here's a thought for you. Had you. Had you ever considered that the hard working Poles etc you all encounter happen to be the hard working aspiration ones? Bit obvious eh?

[UV101]

Maybe if the little shits grew up with some respect for anything at all including themselves, the idea wouldn't even be considered and we wouldn't be here now. As for the bedroom tax, I'm sick and facking tired of having my pants pulled down month in month out supporting scumbags who cant be arsed to get off their lazy arses because they dont need to.

Its about time the "whole" of society and not just a few realised that there absolutely are consequences to actions.

The bedroom tax is the best idea I've seen a government come out with. Now all they need to do is lower benefits so that people have no choice but to go to work. Failing that, hand out tasks that benefit the community in order to earn the benifits.

Whilst I clearly see and understand the comment relating to a police state, something is wrong and it all needs fixing at the cause.

I wear the trousers in my house not my kids.....whats more, they know it!

My last house I rented (because since my divorce I don't have a deposit) cost £1100 per month. I have a big family and so I chose to spend that money on a 5 bed detached rented property. Now its being rented by a family of 3 paid for by the tax payer as there is no social housing!
The is a member of my family who is in a 3 bed council house. He has a good job and earns a similar wage to me. His kids have all flown the nest (they have their own council houses). Now he is moaning about bedroom tax......really!!!! what about the fact that his rent is subsidised to by over £600 per month by the tax payer!!!!

To be honest, it makes me sick......I'm afraid if thats what it takes then that what it takes.....You need to contribute to society before you deserve anything from it and you certainly aren't owed anything!!!!!!!!!!!

Having said all that i'll be keeping away from this thread I think!

[Markiii]

More and more Daily Mail anecdotal bullshit. Lazy British workers won't have it etc etc. True, some won't. But not all.

Here's a thought for you. Had you. Had you ever considered that the hard working Poles etc you all encounter happen to be the hard working aspiration ones? Bit obvious eh?

who still wouldn't have jobs if there were hard working aspirational brits taking them?

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

who still wouldn't have jobs if there were hard working aspirational brits taking them?

What a stupid comment. Eastern European workers have simply driven down wages. We are now a low wage economy. Go check before you come out with reactionary statements.

A good example is M&S. They used to be regarded as a prestige employer. They now pay a few pence over the minimum wage.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Maybe if the little shits grew up with some respect for anything at all including themselves, the idea wouldn't even be considered and we wouldn't be here now. As for the bedroom tax, I'm sick and facking tired of having my pants pulled down month in month out supporting scumbags who cant be arsed to get off their lazy arses because they dont need to.

Its about time the "whole" of society and not just a few realised that there absolutely are consequences to actions.

The bedroom tax is the best idea I've seen a government come out with. Now all they need to do is lower benefits so that people have no choice but to go to work. Failing that, hand out tasks that benefit the community in order to earn the benifits.

Whilst I clearly see and understand the comment relating to a police state, something is wrong and it all needs fixing at the cause.

I wear the trousers in my house not my kids.....whats more, they know it!

My last house I rented (because since my divorce I don't have a deposit) cost £1100 per month. I have a big family and so I chose to spend that money on a 5 bed detached rented property. Now its being rented by a family of 3 paid for by the tax payer as there is no social housing!
The is a member of my family who is in a 3 bed council house. He has a good job and earns a similar wage to me. His kids have all flown the nest (they have their own council houses). Now he is moaning about bedroom tax......really!!!! what about the fact that his rent is subsidised to by over £600 per month by the tax payer!!!!

To be honest, it makes me sick......I'm afraid if thats what it takes then that what it takes.....You need to contribute to society before you deserve anything from it and you certainly aren't owed anything!!!!!!!!!!!

Having said all that i'll be keeping away from this thread I think!

You wear the trousers in your house. Wow I'm impressed. Divorced you say?

[hoopsontoast]

'Benefits' should not be a substitute for a working wage.*

*Apart from Disability Benefits and the like.

[Markiii]

What a stupid comment. Eastern European workers have simply driven down wages. We are now a low wage economy. Go check before you come out with reactionary statements.

A good example is M&S. They used to be regarded as a prestige employer. They now pay a few pence over the minimum wage.

if there are jobs in the uk for hard working aspirational Poles, then surely those same jobs are available to hardworking aspirational Brits?

the actual wages aren't the issue, The Poles or the Brits should be equably capable? and want them just as much?

what exactly is stupid about that? The employers won't care who gets the jobs if they are all hardworking and aspirational surely?

now if you want to argue that the wages should be higher that's a whole other debate

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

if there are jobs in the uk for hard working aspirational Poles, then surely those same jobs are available to hardworking aspirational Brits?

the actual wages aren't the issue, The Poles or the Brits should be equably capable? and want them just as much?

what exactly is stupid about that? The employers won't care who gets the jobs if they are all hardworking and aspirational surely?

now if you want to argue that the wages should be higher that's a whole other debate

OK, I'm struggling here. Ill try an example.

A coffee chain opened a new branch in Nottingham recently. They had seven vacancies (no doubt minimum wage or just above) and they had 1,700 applicants. Many of those applicants were graduates.

My kids have three mates all with masters degrees. One in pure chemistry, one in law and the third in criminology. None of them have jobs. All of them have been trying for more than 18 months.

You carry on labour under the illusion that there are plenty of jobs out there. As someone put it so well earlier 'when the shit hits the fan many people will realise they're standing closer than they thought.'

[Alex_UK]

Pardon the pun, but there are obviously opinions that are poles apart on this one, as all of the political discussions tend to be... All well and good, and a bit of healthy debate is to be encouraged but Harry I'm not sure some of your rhetoric is helpful in keeping this as friendly as possible - labelling people arrogant and calling comments stupid for example - you might not agree with them, but they are opinions like your own and should be respected as such without getting personal or confrontational, please.

[Markiii]

OK, I'm struggling here. Ill try an example.

A coffee chain opened a new branch in Nottingham recently. They had seven vacancies (no doubt minimum wage or just above) and they had 1,700 applicants. Many of those applicants were graduates.

My kids have three mates all with masters degrees. One in pure chemistry, one in law and the third in criminology. None of them have jobs. All of them have been trying for more than 18 months.

You carry on labour under the illusion that there are plenty of jobs out there. As someone put it so well earlier 'when the shit hits the fan many people will realise they're standing closer than they thought.'

so is your point that there aren't jobs?

or there aren't well paid jobs for graduates?

again a different point and one I wouldn't disagree with.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Alex, if I think someone has said something stupid I'm entitled to say so. It's my opinion. If I think someone is arrogant I'm allowed to pass opinion surely?

[StanleyB]

During the 80's and 90's I worked for some lousy wages and had to travel some absurd distances just so that I could afford a mortgage on a flat. My friend the tube driver takes home about a grand a week. I asked him if the immigrants have driven down the wages on the tube. He had to laugh.

[John]

Harry
Its about treating people with respect even if we do not always agree with their views

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Mark, there are very few jobs. The jobs that are available are mostly low paid or part time or both.

This is why there are so many young people unemployed as they generally don't want part time jobs.

Having a generation of graduates working in poor jobs is disgraceful. This is caused largely by New Labour's folly in getting more young people into university. They'd seen the projections and hated the thought of soaring unemployment under Labour. That is also why they overspent creating jobs in the public sector.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Harry
Its about treating people with respect even if we do not always agree with their views

I treat everyone with respect. Although I do also subscribe to that thing about having to earn respect.

Next. . .

[John]

Lets move on. Otherwise the thread will get closed till things calm down a bit

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

During the 80's and 90's I worked for some lousy wages and had to travel some absurd distances just so that I could afford a mortgage on a flat. My friend the tube driver takes home about a grand a week. I asked him if the immigrants have driven down the wages on the tube. He had to laugh.

Once again anecdotal stuff. Tube drivers earn about £47,000 gross. so if your mate is taking home £4,000 a month he's either bullshitting or he does a lot of overtime.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Thank you Harry for your advice. If you must know.....

1) Re car cleaning, mostly I do wash my own car (because I do it best and it's black) but not 100% of the time.

2) Both my wife and myself have demanding jobs and in addition I travel a lot. Our house is relatively large (6 bedrooms, 4 floors) so 3 hours per week from a cleaner helps us keep on top of it. £10 per hour is great value as I earn one heck of a lot more than £10 per hour. If stopped work to clean the house it would cost me money.

Wow! A house with six bedrooms and four floors. I presume I'm meant to be impressed. Sorry but it's a bit like saying 'my dad's bigger than your dad'. Perhaps we can compare cars and houses?

[StanleyB]

£47,000 a year is £903 a week. It ain't far off from a grand.

[Alex_UK]

Harry -

Well in my opinion, "What a stupid comment" is much more confrontational than it needs to be - you're a professional word-smith, I'm sure you can come up with something a little friendlier that still gets your point across?

As for earning respect - I completely agree - but surely having a different opinion to your own doesn't automatically disqualify them?

Anyway, onwards and upwards. :)

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

£47,000 a year is £903 a week. It ain't far off from a grand.

Come on Stan. You clearly stated that he takes home a grand a week. I'm no expert but I'm guessing £903 a week would give you a take home pay of less than £700.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Harry -

Well in my opinion, "What a stupid comment" is much more confrontational than it needs to be - you're a professional word-smith, I'm sure you can come up with something a little friendlier that still gets your point across?

As for earning respect - I completely agree - but surely having a different opinion to your own doesn't automatically disqualify them?

Anyway, onwards and upwards. :)

Alex, I thought it was a stupid comment. Don't see what's wrong with saying so. And I've seen far, far worse on this forum.

[StanleyB]

Come on Stan. You clearly stated that he takes home a grand a week. I'm no expert but I'm guessing £903 a week would give you a take home pay of less than £700.
I texted him and he actually texted back to say that he is taking home more than a grand a week. I's none of my business what he does for that amount, but he is the son of immigrants. So the idea that immigrants have driven down wages just don't hold water.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

I texted him and he actually texted back to say that he is taking home more than a grand a week. I's none of my business what he does for that amount, but he is the son of immigrants. So the idea that immigrants have driven down wages just don't hold water.

My points still stand. I've told you how much tube drivers are paid so as I said he's either bullshitting or he does a lot of overtime.

I don't see how you can extrapolate your last statement just because tube drivers are reasonably well paid.

[Markiii]

The jobs that are available are mostly low paid or part time or both.

This is why there are so many young people unemployed as they generally don't want part time jobs.

Having a generation of graduates working in poor jobs is disgraceful. This is caused largely by New Labour's folly in getting more young people into university. They'd seen the projections and hated the thought of soaring unemployment under Labour. That is also why they overspent creating jobs in the public sector.

Now that I totally agree with

but isn't that what happens in a recession?

Boom and bust is a fact of life, it will get better eventually, pretty much luck of the draw when you are born as to whether your exit from Uni coincided with one or the other.

I was lucky enough to go to Uni during the bust and graduate as it got better, could easily have been the other way.

I just don't think that's something we can blame the current government for.

Labour presided overs years of amazing boom, and yet still ended up leaving office with nothing in the bank for the recession and a massive debt.

101 Economics say you wouldn't do that with your personal finances let alone the countries.

[Clive]

Wow! A house with six bedrooms and four floors. I presume I'm meant to be impressed. Sorry but it's a bit like saying 'my dad's bigger than your dad'. Perhaps we can compare cars and houses?

You are a tosser. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that there's a lot cleaning to do (this was the context), you arrogant twat.

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that there's a lot cleaning to do (this was the context).

For all you know I might live in a low cost area with a house worth very little.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Right gents, now it's time to stop.
Perhaps we'll close this thread for a while before we have any more of the personal attacks.
Harry, you have repeatedly defied Alex' polite requests to conduct civilised debate and that is unacceptable.