View Full Version : Time to replace my AT33-PTG, but what with?
Hi guys,
Like a few of you at the time I got my hands on a bargain AT-33PTG in around 2008 for around £180 delivered. It's given me many hours of listening pleasure but is now sadly worn and sounding a bit rough, so time for a replacement.
Just wondering what other people moved on to from here. Looking at current prices it seems that you need to spend £400+ just to remain at the same level which is a bit painful. Anyone know of any current bargains, or recommend a good move. I've been pondering an Ortofon 2M bronze or black, but the move back to an MM from an MC seems dangerous. Anyone else done this?
Thanks for any thoughts and advice.
The deck is a Well Tempered Classic BTW.
julesd68
27-03-2013, 10:19
Hi Rich - what kind of music do you listen to on your TT?
Hi Rich
One option would be a re-tip. ESCo work with AT carts, as do (I believe) North West Analogue. You might be looking at £250+, but for that price you'd probably get a better tip than the standard AT one. It's worth chatting to Wyndham at Esco or Dom at NWA for their thoughts.
Quite a heavy acoustic and folk bias - Richard Thompson, Burt Jansch, Joanna Newsom, but quite often somewhat heavier - Led Zep, Foo Fighters, Ministry, Red Hot Chilli Peppers. So more guitars than anything else.
The only stuff I don't tend to listen to is classical, opera, or dance music. I guess I'm looking for something with good timing and dynamics foremost.
julesd68
27-03-2013, 10:47
Rich - if you love guitars you simply must try a good MM!
I have always used MM's but earlier this year I bought a couple of MC's (ZYX + Ortofon) to try with a SUT. They worked very well with the classical music I like, but were completely lost with the likes of Led Zep and Rush that I also enjoy! There was just no drive or urgency to the drums and guitars. I switched back to a really good MM and now have a cart that I can enjoy with all sorts of music.
Thanks guys. Two interesting pieces of food for thought I'd not considered.
A re-tip is a great idea as I always enjoyed the AT so given a good quality diamond replacement it should be a safe bet. I am intrigued by the thought of a good MM though. I've never heard an MM that cost in excess of £100 but I did fit an Ortofon 2M Red to a mates deck just before Christmas and I was amazed by just how good it sounded for the money, which was what made me think of the 2M bronze or black. So could this be the way to go or would you recommend any other MMs?
Audio Al
27-03-2013, 11:24
This one sounded very sweet at the WW show
http://www.moving-coil-cartridges.com/goldring-eroica.htm
Audio Al
27-03-2013, 11:27
And this MM was highly recommended by Origin Live
http://www.moving-coil-cartridges.com/dynavector-10x5.htm
julesd68
27-03-2013, 11:34
I have not heard one myself but your safest bet might be a 2M Black - if for some reason you don't get on with it, you'll be able to pass it on very easily as you hardly ever see them come up on the used market, which tells you something about how good they must be.
My Garrott P77i is superb and comparable my old Nagaoka MP-50. Only issue is that you'll have to order one from Australia!
You've got the whole Nagaoka range to look at and you might even find an older NOS one if you keep your eyes open on ebay.
Audioman
27-03-2013, 11:43
I listen to rock, folk rock and female vocals and little Classical. Would never go back to a MM. The few exceptions even worth considering are in MC territory price wise. Jules did you consider that the limp sound may be down to the SUT. A solid state MC stage may provide a bit more grit and drive for rock depending on what sound balance floats your boat.
Unless you go down to MC's around £250 -£350 which include Goldring Eroica LX, AT F7 or Ortofon Rhondo Red you are looking at the £400+ range. Cheapest of which is the Denon DL304 at bang on £400 but need a MC stage that can handle it's very low output. You could look for a new old stock Ortofon MC25FL which still won't be as good as what you now have but won't be miles of the pace. US seller Needle Doctor still have the AT0C9 mk II at $499 (£330) which should be fairly close sound wise to the AT33pgt.
Ammonite Audio
27-03-2013, 11:52
The 2M Black is definitely one to go for, but get the capacitance loading (arm cabling + phono amp combined capacitance) wrong and you might wonder what all the fuss is about. I rather regret selling mine, having read about that!
julesd68
27-03-2013, 11:55
Jules did you consider that the limp sound may be down to the SUT. A solid state MC stage may provide a bit more grit and drive for rock depending on what sound balance floats your boat.
Maybe, I haven't tried one but having researched it, the vast majority of users on this forum with an MC go with a good SUT, so I used my old Puresound P10 phono stage with a T10 SUT. This should have been a good match and I also tried a different SUT but didn't like this any better.
My Conrad-Johnson phono stage has loading for low-output MC's so could try this in the future but can't say I'm in a hurry.
Just get the bloody PTG retipped by EsCo. 10XV indeed - can't even hold a candle stick to a good working PTG, let alone the bloody candle :lol:
The problem with cartridges of course is getting to hear them. I have some past experience of Dynavector and considering I'm running an L300 pre-amp with recently added P-300 phono stage, DV should be a logical choice. But my experience of DVs up to now has been that their sound is too rich and lush for my tastes unless your spending over £1000 on them. There was an XX-2 supplied with my Well Tempered when I bought it and I never got on with it and back then I replaced it with a Kontrapunkt A which I much preferred. That was before I bought the P-300 phono stage however so there is an argument that I should give them another shot.
But then I've also heard a 17D2 which I didn't think much of either in another system. Then on the other side of the scale I've heard a Te Kaitora Rua which was fantastic, but way out of my price range.
I can see that this isn't going to be an easy decision.
The 17D series isn't lush, but quite neutral/honest or brightly lit for some, however they can be a bit crabby if not meticulously set up...
Just get the bloody PTG retipped by EsCo. 10XV indeed - can't even hold a candle stick to a good working PTG, let alone the bloody candle :lol:
I reckon this is the wise choice, but given how long it looks as if I might be without a cart for, maybe a cheapish MM to keep me going as back up!
Much appreciated all!
Hi Rich
I moved on from my 33PTG to a Shelter 5000. It has more of everything: midrange detail, richness, bass extension, soundstage, filigree treble. A fantastic cartridge which you can find at good prices from Hong Kong vendors like 2juki. Just another perspective for you.
Hi Martin,
Thanks for that. I've heard nothing but praise for the Shelters, but thought they were silly money, so ruled them out. I'll do a spot of digging though if there are some to be had at good prices.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shelter-5000-MC-Cartridge-0-5mV-Output-made-Japan-/370545514767?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item56463bd90f
RobbieGong
27-03-2013, 18:36
The 2M Black is simply stunning - seriously and everyone here knows how I feel about it. It is the cart I will keep forever and replace the stylus whenever it wears. The only possibility of a change would be If I was ever flush enough to try it's bigger brother the Cadenza Black and that's a maybe. I took a punt guessing it would be one good cart after being very pleased with the 2M Blue, boy was I right ! The numerous reviews I've read, after buying have only reiterated that I am most certainly not alone in expressing the delights of owning this cart. when set up properly it has to be the best mm bar non IMO. I came across this http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en-GB&q=cache:SsjMhvpUVVIJ:http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-2M-Black-Phono-Cartridge%2Bortofon+2m+black+vta&gbv=2&gs_l=heirloom-hp.13..0.7734.13639.0.15561.20.15.0.5.5.0.157.1984 .1j14.15.0...0.0...1c.1.Ykt-r1MgiLw&ct=clnk the other day (click on the customer reviews tab) and I thought heck !! a serious number of music lovers feeling my 2M Black joy and note that the majority dont just say it's good cause it's way better than that, 11 out of 10 to Ortofon as far as i'm concerned :D
oceanobsession
28-03-2013, 22:15
Hi there lovejoy, i bought a seconhand at 33ptg which replaced my dl 103,
no question it was a great cartridge for the money, great bass, but i thought
it lacked overall body, i now use a cadenza bronze, but it doesent play my
camel albums as good as the at 33ptg, but overall its better but more expensive, ive also had a at oc9 mk1 which i thouht lean and bright, i could
live with the at33ptg or ev model, and i think for the money hard to beat.
if it were me id buy from 2juki.
I was delighted with the retip I had done on my 33PTG by Dom at NWA.
At the price of a retip, I cannot think of anything new coming close.
As a very pleased owner of Ortofon 2M Black and Red styli, and previously owned both Blue and Bronze, i cannot but recommend the whole range. Buy the Black cart and a Blue styli, and you're all set! The Blue for everyday listening, and swap to the Black for your prioritized listening sessions!
Please note, the Black/Bronze housing leverages the Red/Blue styli into a different league! :)
Regards /Mike
Interesting and thanks for that, since a sound recording engineer pal in the AV industry has had difficulty with a 2M Blue, finding it fussy with setup to get a balanced bass and treble quality, one giving way to the other all too often...
Come back V15VMR, all is forgiven ;)
Some good reccos here so far.
Personally, Rich, I'd go with getting Dom to re-tip your AT and fit a 'fancy' cantilever, while he's at it. For roughly the same outlay as it would cost you to replace your 33-PTG with a similarly capable MC, from the 'usual suspects', you'd end up with a superb sounding cartridge that would rival top MCs at around the £1k mark - yes, a cantilever upgrade such as that, combined with a retip, really would elevate the performance of your AT very significantly!
Another option, if you want to be amongst the first to discover the new sub-£300 'giant-killer', then bag one of these boys (£275):
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/2999/vivon.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/vivon.jpg/)
Further info: http://www.ortofon.com/products/cartridges/moving-coil/mc-vivo-blue
For me, it could be the one to replace the 33-PTG, but of course, being an Ortofon, it will do things a little differently.
Marco.
Thanks guys, all such good advice!
Phil I think you really hit the nail on the head. Body is precisely the one department that the AT seems to be lacking. Have to admit that I'm getting more and more tempted by the Shelter. It's a bit more than I want to spend still and my worry is what if I don't like it, so that puts me back on the re-tip and going by Marco's comments (thanks Marco) it sounds like a good bet. Maybe start with a retip and splash out on a new cart when the funds become available.
Some good reccos here so far.
Personally, Rich, I'd go with getting Dom to re-tip your AT and fit a 'fancy' cantilever, while he's at it. For roughly the same outlay as it would cost you to replace your 33-PTG with a similarly capable MC, from the 'usual suspects', you'd end up with a superb sounding cartridge that would rival top MCs at around the £1k mark - yes, a cantilever upgrade such as that, combined with a retip, really would elevate the performance of your AT very significantly!
Another option, if you want to be amongst the first to discover the new sub-£300 'giant-killer', then bag one of these boys (£275):
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/2999/vivon.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/vivon.jpg/)
Further info: http://www.ortofon.com/products/cartridges/moving-coil/mc-vivo-blue
For me, it could be the one to replace the 33-PTG, but of course, being an Ortofon, it will do things a little differently.
Marco.
The MC10 lives again :) but at what price? it was £50 when the DL110 and 10XV were £60!!!!!!!!!
Read my post again, daftee. The price is in there! ;)
Marco.
Read my post again, daftee. The price is in there! ;)
Marco.
I read it guv'nor :) I meant "At what price now compared to olden days?)
Still, under three hundred notes ain't bad is it, although it makes the stock 103 rather splendid value if the arm will take it :) if the 103 had inflated the price as all the others around it have, it would be £500 or more for the base version, let alone all the tweaked ones.....
Last October I used a proxy service (Tenso.com) to order an AT33PTG II from Amazon Japan. The price seems to fluctuate a lot, but at the time it was 32000 yen, which works out to around £220. I just checked and it's now 42,000 yen, which is around £280. Plus shipping and Tenso's fee, of course, but the fees are very reasonable.
Well, a few weeks of procrastinating and deliberating. Had an interesting chat with one of the guys from ESCo and they gave the impression that the AT33PTG wasn't really worth the re-tip price, which I thought slightly odd, but then that niggle about the slight lack of weight and body in the mids kept coming back and I ultimately decided I wanted to try something different.
As much as I wanted to try the Shelter, it's a bit out of my reach at the moment with a new kitchen in the process of going in, so I've ordered a 2M Bronze on the proviso that if I like it, I'll get a black stylus later on.
Currently awaiting a phonecall from Audio T to tell me it's arrived!
Ammonite Audio
18-04-2013, 17:59
If you find the 2M Bronze to be a bit disappointing, do check the total capacitance load presented by the phono leads AND the phono stage together. These cartridges are very sensitive to correct capacitance loading, and are only stunning when everything is right.
Well, a few weeks of procrastinating and deliberating. Had an interesting chat with one of the guys from ESCo and they gave the impression that the AT33PTG wasn't really worth the re-tip price, which I thought slightly odd, but then that niggle about the slight lack of weight and body in the mids kept coming back and I ultimately decided I wanted to try something different.
As much as I wanted to try the Shelter, it's a bit out of my reach at the moment with a new kitchen in the process of going in, so I've ordered a 2M Bronze on the proviso that if I like it, I'll get a black stylus later on.
Currently awaiting a phonecall from Audio T to tell me it's arrived!
If you find the 2M Bronze to be a bit disappointing, do check the total capacitance load presented by the phono leads AND the phono stage together. These cartridges are very sensitive to correct capacitance loading, and are only stunning when everything is right.
And caution No2:
Make sure you have the exact correct VTA! The 2M's are sensitive as racing horses when it comes to this.
But get it right, and it'll take you a long way on the road to Vinyl Nirvana! ;)
Regards /Mike
Duly noted, thanks for the tips guys. I'm going to have a rare weekend at home so plenty of time to set things up properly - Assuming it arrives anyway. I ordered it last Saturday and after a phonecall to Audio T yesterday it seems they forgot to order it... GRRRRR. Not the first time this has happened either. So much for supporting your local hi-fi shop. If it doesn't arrive today I'll not be happy.
The deck doesn't have a captive interconnect to the pre-amp so I guess I'm going to want to play around with some different cables to get the loading right.
Well it turned up on Friday so I picked it up from Audio-T then took a walk down the road and purchased the new David Bowie album on vinyl for something new to play. Got it all home and set it up.
The reports of it taking some setting up are no exaggeration. It sounded pretty ragged on first listen, so I spent a bit of time aligning, setting VTA and swapping out interconnects (which made a tremendous difference - who'd a thought?) and was pretty happy after around 45 minutes of fettling.
I have to admit that I've not had a huge amount of time with it yet. The house is currently in chaos due to a new kitchen going in, but we're in the final stages of that now, so normality should be resumed by the weekend so I'll have some more time with it then, but this is where we are at the moment:
With the old AT-33PTG in recent memory this is the comparison I'll make it with:
The good: The bronze has a real serious groove factor to it, absolutely impeccable timing, wonderful dynamic slam and that weight and body that was missing in the mids with the AT has been well and truly restored. Mission accomplished on that front. It also seems to layer instruments very nicely, painting much more of a front to back image than the AT did.
The not so good: Surface noise is certainly more prevalent than the AT, but then the AT was extremely good in this respect - It doesn't really detract from the music. One thing that does slightly though is that there seems to be just a slight blurring of the edges - a little rough and readiness - it lacks the finesse of the AT. This might just require some more time getting the setup right, so I'll concentrate on this in the coming week.
What was more disconcerting was that having enjoyed a couple of hours of tunes on the Friday night, it all sounded unbearably bright on Saturday morning. I've put this down to the silicone fluid in the arm on the Well Tempered having settled overnight so I probably need to adjust the height of the disc within the fluid to calm this down again.
So I need to spend a bit more time setting up, but from what I've heard so far from Friday night, I am very pleased with and on balance I think I'm going to enjoy it more than the AT, so many thanks for the recommendations. I'll post some more when I've managed to get a bit more time, and a few more hours listening in.
The very slight spit and sparkle should tame a little once the diamond and suspension have settled down. As to the subtle edge-blurring, I suspect this just *may* be due to the fixed vs. moving coils and the way the cantilever hinge is mounted - Rega have to disprove the point however by hingeing the generator the way mm types and their relatives do... :scratch:
Surface noise always seems lower with MCs, I've never quite understood why.
Having had a few more weeks to play now, I'm curious to know what tracking weights people are using with their Ortofon 2Ms. I've been busy with the HFN/RR set up record and I've found that 1.5g isn't enough to ensure decent tracking. I've actually put it up to 2.2 grams now, which seems way above what the instructions recommend, but it now tracks nicely and sounds much more solid. Anyone else found or tried this?
If you're settled then PLEASE don't beggar about on my account BUT-----
I have your cartridge's ancestor, an M25 FL Super, and find that 1.6 to 1.7 gives the best balance, the 1/10g difference being equal to a mm or two VTA at the pivot end. Perhaps you could try taking tracking force down to 1.8g or so and taking the arm down a touch at the rear? Mine needs a heck of a lot of bias correction compared to other carts I have and obviously, I haven't a clue how you'd set the damping up on your arm. I think these Ortofons are pretty well damped on their own, so *shouldn't* need loads added at the arm with luck..
Like I said, I don't want you to fart around and get a worse sound for your trouble, but so many cartridges from all makers seem to prefer the arm either level or slightly down at the back, rather than slightly up (Deccas are the opposite, but they are the exception IMO :lol:).
How you getting on with it now Dave?:)
Hi Dave,
Many thanks for your input here. That's given me a lot of food for thought. I have damping set very slightly on the high side so I will try reducing that and then have a go at bringing tracking force back to a level within the recommended spec and altering VTA accordingly. I've never known a cartridge to take quite so much fettling, and as you say, the bias required is higher than I've ever known too.
I'll give that a go this week and let you know how it goes.
Thanks again.
Robert Onion
25-05-2013, 21:00
Hi guys,
Like a few of you at the time I got my hands on a bargain AT-33PTG in around 2008 for around £180 delivered. It's given me many hours of listening pleasure but is now sadly worn and sounding a bit rough, so time for a replacement.
Just wondering what other people moved on to from here. Looking at current prices it seems that you need to spend £400+ just to remain at the same level which is a bit painful. Anyone know of any current bargains, or recommend a good move. I've been pondering an Ortofon 2M bronze or black, but the move back to an MM from an MC seems dangerous. Anyone else done this?
Thanks for any thoughts and advice.
The deck is a Well Tempered Classic BTW.
I now use an Audio Note IQ2 after several more expensive MC's over the last 10 years. Happy to report excellent sound quality on my Pink Triangle Anniversary......with the added benefit of ease use with a valve phono stage.
337alant
26-05-2013, 02:27
If you're settled then PLEASE don't beggar about on my account BUT-----
I have your cartridge's ancestor, an M25 FL Super, and find that 1.6 to 1.7 gives the best balance, the 1/10g difference being equal to a mm or two VTA at the pivot end. Perhaps you could try taking tracking force down to 1.8g or so and taking the arm down a touch at the rear? Mine needs a heck of a lot of bias correction compared to other carts I have and obviously, I haven't a clue how you'd set the damping up on your arm. I think these Ortofons are pretty well damped on their own, so *shouldn't* need loads added at the arm with luck..
Like I said, I don't want you to fart around and get a worse sound for your trouble, but so many cartridges from all makers seem to prefer the arm either level or slightly down at the back, rather than slightly up (Deccas are the opposite, but they are the exception IMO :lol:).
I have had 3 Ortofons and I like them all, I really liked the MC25 FL (tracking @ 1.8g) and would still have it now but an accident with one of my sons snapped off the cantilever so that was the end of that I was really gutted but by Chance Chops54 on PFM offered me a low hours Kontrapunkt B (Tracking @ 2.5g) at good price so Im very happy with that now.:)
I'm sure your Ortofon will settle down try lowering the VTA as that tends to roll off the treable.
Alan
If you still have the MC25 FL, then the generator should be ripe for one of Dom's cantilever/diamond combos to be fitted. Good generator so well worth a retip including a new cantilever.
337alant
26-05-2013, 17:06
Dave
Thanks thats interesting as I do still have the body but I thought it would be an uneconomical repair.
Who is Dom, do you have a user name and I will enquire :)
Alan
Have a look at the thread 'Cartridge repairs by Northwest Analogue.' I think I have the title right. Styli are generally made telescopically, where the cantilever with diamond is carefully attached to the coil assembly (in your case). It's unlikely the coil former and mount is damaged hopefully, so the possibility is definitely there for a new cantilever to be fitted. Dominic has a range of assemblies he could fit, from simple aluminium cantilever with elliptical tip, to really advanced 'FG' line contact styli on expensive cantilevers. Got to be loads cheaper than a grand-plus new Ortofon of similar spec?
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