73Hz, no, it really, really hurts!

[Karma Train]

Hi All,

my current system (if you could call it that) comprises a custom built media PC into a Beresford DAC, from there into a Primare integrated and on to a pair of Royd Minstrels, a humble rig I know but hey, I'm extremely poor OK. I get on reasonably well with this set up apart from one enormous exasperation I have with it, that being an almighty bass boom/hump around the 73Hz mark which equates I believe to a D note on a bass guitar or a double bass. I've been using said system for a couple of years now and simply put up with the fact that the entire room resonates when that frequency/note gets hit but I seriously can't take it any more.

This problem has existed for as long as I can remember in this horrible little listening/living room and I've been through at least 20 odd sets of speakers of varying shapes and sizes in an attempt to find a sound I can live with but pretty much all of them make the same horrible boom around that frequency.

I'm kind of stuck with the positioning of the speakers which you can see in the sketch that follows....

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh114/Karma_train/Ebay%20Uploads/DSCF3010_zps68e261ed.jpg

I can't really start investing in bass traps and acoustic treatments as it's still a living room essentially. I've moved the speakers away from the rear wall, I've bunged their ports, I've put them on slate slabs, I've changed the speaker cable (3 times) but the only thing that makes the set up almost listenable is applying the following kind of setting to a parameric eq in Foobar2000....

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh114/Karma_train/Ebay%20Uploads/EQ_zpse9fee115.jpg

One factor which no-doubt makes matters worse is that I'm a floor-dweller. My favoured listening position is near field, lying on the floor propped up by a disgusting bean bag, I never quite got the hang of sitting in a chair or on a sofa to listen to music, that somehow always feels like I'm in a dentist's waiting room or sommat!

So I guess I just want to pick your brains really. I can't move house as much as I'd like to, I can't stick bass traps all over the shop and I can't really change the position the gear's in or my position when listening to it which just about leaves changing my speakers and or amp as the only viable option.

Being kind of a logical person, my recent thinking has been along the lines of....if your system farts at 73Hz then get some speakers which don't extend that far but apart from Rogers DB101s (ported yuk!) I haven't managed to find any others which fit that criteria. I thought that Celestion SL6s might do the trick as they're small sealed boxes and are notoriously bass light and I've also kind of got a feeling that some JR149s or some Linn Kans might do the trick but they're nothing more than hunches really.

Confusing matters still further I spoke to a guy in the local hi-fi emporium today and he said I was going about things in totally the wrong way, his entirely plausible explanation was....to produce anything approaching low bass, drivers in small speakers have to move far greater distances than dirty great big drivers, therefore they excite the air a whole lot more which in turn makes the boom a lot worse. He said he had a similar problem and the speakers which worked best in his environment were some old Tannoy 15" dual concentrics (like I could afford those!)....but that was his argument anyway, big speakers have to move less to produce the same amount of bass, therefore less boom would be the result. He also said that my Primare amp wouldn't really get hold of the bass end properly and that my old Rega speaker cable wasn't helping much either. He recommended something called Tellurium Q at about £100 a meter (well he would do that wouldn't he?).

So that's my situation really, one of impending insanity unless I can stop my room shaking every time I fancy listening to a bit of music which has anything more masculine than a mandolin in it!

My musical tastes are wide and varied, lots of acoustic stuff but I'm also well partial to a drop of reggae and jazz-funk every so often. I want to hear the notes the bass players play, I'm not interested in the vast overhang that I'm hearing now. What do I want? tight, fast bass please, when do I want it? now!

I still happen to think small, sealed boxes would be the way to go but in truth my brain is totally scrambled hence me hitting this board in the hope of finding inspiration.

Any ideas about which direction I should head in please? and bless you for your time, it is greatly appreciated believe me.

Charlie. :scratch:

[Trickie_Dickie]

There is nothing wrong with your gear. Its the room. You've already proved that. The simplest solution is staring at you, a notch filter at 73Hz.

[Karma Train]

There is nothing wrong with your gear. Its the room. You've already proved that. The simplest solution is staring at you, a notch filter at 73Hz.

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated and yes you're right, applying the cut at 73Hz is probably the only remedy that makes much sense, however, that would only be effective when playing computer files as it's a software solution, I also have a filthy great CD collection and a Primare CD player so I would be unable to use the filter on that.

The Minstrels are a bit lumpy in the bottom end though so I'm still thinking that some speakers which didn't produce so much of a boom would be better as it would mean less treatment was needed and my CDs would be listenable although in truth I suppose I could play them in the disc drive of the computer and put them through the filter that way.

Surely to God though there must be some pleasant sounding, lean bass, sealed boxes out there, it's not asking the earth is it....or is it?

[Puffin]

I have found that a sub woofer with a variable phase 0 - 180 degrees can help tune out bass humps.

[goraman]

The corner by the window,sitting on the sofa it will be to your right.
Bass nodes live in corners, usually.
If the corner on the right is wide open I'll bet it's your problem.
Put something there,break up that corner and see if that works out.
Find the point in the room where the node develops and break it up.
You can also put a Sally in the corner or behind each speaker.

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/#!__products/accessories

[Karma Train]

I have found that a sub woofer with a variable phase 0 - 180 degrees can help tune out bass humps.

Hmm! that's a thought, I had been contemplating a subwoofer myself which sounds kind of loopy if one actually wants to remove bass frequencies but my reckoning was; set the sub's xover to something above 73Hz and then keep it's volume down really low. I'm not totally sure I understand about the variable phase aspect but I'm guessing it employs the reverse phase cancelling out frequencies principle. Definitely something to consider though, are there any affordable subs with this feature that spring to mind?...affordable being the operative word here :)

I still think starting out by having less lumpy, smaller, tighter sounding speakers would be the way to go as the sub would be required to do less work, much the same as with the notch filter option above.

Many thanks for the input, again, much appreciated :hmm:

[Covenant]

Have you read this thread?:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24502
Just try moving the left hand speaker in front of the hifi rack but well away from the wall.
If it works then the rack has to go where the bookcase is. Sometimes you have to be radical.......

[Reffc]

You can't alter the laws of physics. Changing loudspeakers is a complete waste of time as others have said and as you have proved it is the room. It may be a living room but unless you're willing to entertain some bass traps, or introduce a notch filter of some description then you will not be able to alter or improve the situation since that is the node at which the room responds. You could try an antimode which will analyse and tune out the hump (a sort of glorified notch filter) but it's quite expensive. You could also (shock/horror) for a lot cheaper money try a pro-grade graphic equaliser (aimed at studio use) and tune down the bass response using that. Its possibly one of the more straight forward solutions which wont have you messing up the living room with bass traps. I'd still argue that you need some room treatment looking at your room though.

[Dalster]

I would try to move the speakers like mentioned above, also if you put speakers higher or lower can change the bass.

I know you don't want bass traps butt resonaters like this work great for just a small frequenty band.

http://www.thomann.de/be/vicoustic_vari_bass_black_2_set.htm

[Ali Tait]

A possible solution might be to use small stanmounters and tuck a sub away elswhere in the room. Try the sub in different positions to see if you can cure the problem.

[johnwhit]

Well I'm a floor dweller myself despite my age, always have been. Without re-reading the entire post, I take it your speakers are mounted on stands?.......I know stupid question:doh:

Is the floor wooden or solid?

Before I moved to my present house I lived in a flat, I had a pair of Celestion 4 Series 2 sat on a wooden window bench seat that was never used for it's intended purpose, they were spiked underneath and worked really well.

When I moved I bought a pair of Atacama SE24 stands and mounted the Celestions on those, never could get any bass out of them after that so I eventually changed speakers when I got some spare cash.

John

[John]

If you go down small speaker route this be a great sub to get
http://www.xtzsound.eu/en/products/subwoofers/99w12-16-matt#.UU69W5BFCAI

[Eremite]

73 Hz corresponds to a wavelength of 4.66 metres which is just a shade under 15' 2" - which appears to be the longest dimension of your room.

What's the height of your ceiling? If it's around 7' 7" then you've got a double whammy of a half wavelength vertically as well. What happens if you listen in different parts of the room? Are the bass modes well defined in their position, or is it boomy all over the room?

Unless you can alter the (acoustic) dimensions of the room, any way of pumping 73Hz into the room will make life hard; as others have said, a notch filter at 73Hz would seem the easiest thing to do.

[Rothchild]

Do a search for limp mass membrane absorbers / traps they're the best bet to reach (reasonably accurately).

If you're going the corrective EQ route I wouldn't go with a hardware unit (even if it was 'studio' grade) unless you're looking for another 'character' for your chain, keep it software and go for a 'linear phase' variety.

As for the all the cobblers about driver size, if your room booms, in sympathy with certain frequencies at certain levels, it doesn't matter what or how that frequency is generated (be it by a bassoon, a 18" driver or an 8" driver)

[Reffc]

Do a search for limp mass membrane absorbers / traps they're the best bet to reach (reasonably accurately).

If you're going the corrective EQ route I wouldn't go with a hardware unit (even if it was 'studio' grade) unless you're looking for another 'character' for your chain, keep it software and go for a 'linear phase' variety.

As for the all the cobblers about driver size, if your room booms, in sympathy with certain frequencies at certain levels, it doesn't matter what or how that frequency is generated (be it by a bassoon, a 18" driver or an 8" driver)

Good post.

Some rock solid and sensible advice above although I'd say don't discount studio gear like a GOOD EQ, as picking one up used could be a whole heap cheaper than running to something like AntiMode 2.0 or similar and you'll find with a little playing around that you can dial down the lumpy response quite nicely.

Bass traps and some acoustic treatment are really the best option if you can live with some deep foam toblerones in the corners!

I can't quite believe the cobblers advice that your local hifi shop bloke gave you. I've never read such a load of old codswallop. A small driver creating 73 Hz at say 85dB moves exactly the same amount of air as a large cone creating 85dB at 73Hz. That's physics for you. The driver size has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem which is one of room dimensions and standing wave formation. As for changing speaker cable...what sort of a charlatan is he? Cables will make no difference at all. None. Not one iota, unless made so thin and of such high impedance that you strangle bass performance!

The two things that can be done (and these are the ONLY two things that can be done) are to reduce the amplitude of the speaker output (ie the SPL) at the troublesome frequencies (EQ/notch filter or antimode device) or to reduce standing wave formation (lots of bass traps). that's it. Perhaps not the answer you would like to have, but there you are. I'm afraid, it's either one of those two solutions or use another room which has less troublesome dimensions.

[Karma Train]

73 Hz corresponds to a wavelength of 4.66 metres which is just a shade under 15' 2" - which appears to be the longest dimension of your room. What's the height of your ceiling? If it's around 7' 7" then you've got a double whammy of a half wavelength vertically as well. What happens if you listen in different parts of the room? Are the bass modes well defined in their position, or is it boomy all over the room?
Unless you can alter the (acoustic) dimensions of the room, any way of pumping 73Hz into the room will make life hard; as others have said, a notch filter at 73Hz would seem the easiest thing to do.

I can't thank you all enough for your replies, I've been out most of the day and now I've come home to so much helpful information, I'm simply overwhelmed, many, many thanks again.

In response to the post above, yep, you guessed it, my ceiling is exactly 7'7'' high, so that would be me double whammied then :( and the bass does boom all over the room not just in one specific place (aren't I the lucky one?).....bugger!


The two things that can be done (and these are the ONLY two things that can be done) are to reduce the amplitude of the speaker output (ie the SPL) at the troublesome frequencies (EQ/notch filter or antimode device) or to reduce standing wave formation (lots of bass traps). that's it. Perhaps not the answer you would like to have, but there you are. I'm afraid, it's either one of those two solutions or use another room which has less troublesome dimensions.

So all things considered then it looks like I've already gone down the only route available to me ie, using a software filter as shown in my OP, I really am poor so simply can't afford a vast array of bass traps and acoustical treatments, neither can I move house which would be my preferred option by far!


I can't quite believe the cobblers advice that your local hifi shop bloke gave you. I've never read such a load of old codswallop. A small driver creating 73 Hz at say 85dB moves exactly the same amount of air as a large cone creating 85dB at 73Hz. That's physics for you. The driver size has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem which is one of room dimensions and standing wave formation. As for changing speaker cable...what sort of a charlatan is he? Cables will make no difference at all. None. Not one iota, unless made so thin and of such high impedance that you strangle bass performance!

Thanks for that advice as well, probably the most sensible thing I've heard anyone say on a hi-fi forum ever and a view which confirms beliefs I've held all my life. I've had a huge variety of speakers in this room and they've all farted to a greater or lesser extent and the only speaker wire I've ever heard make any difference at all is QED Silver Anniversary which was like having screwdrivers rammed in my ear holes, so thanks again for that sound wisdom.

Could I possibly ask one more thing please?

Accepting that this room is death to music and will always give me grief around that frequency and accepting also that pretty much all speakers regardless of size will cause the same issues to arise, has anyone here had any experience of the Celestion SL6s?

It's a speaker I've never tried before and I just get the feeling that it might suit this hell-hole a lot better than most others, this is my thinking.

It's a small, sealed box speaker (ports always make matters worse as they are usually tuned around the 70Hz mark as well which leads to a triple whammy in here :() They are reported to have a wonderful treble and mid-range response (my faves :)) and they are also reported to be incredibly hard to drive which leads to a distinct lack of bass unless you stick a monster amp up their backsides. As I said, my current Royd Minstrels produce loads of bass and it's kind of lumpy as well, so wouldn't giving the room less of the frequency to start with be a better option? On the Royds I'm taking oodles of 73Hz out with the filter, if I had to remove less wouldn't the overall listening experience be more pleasing to the ear? or are my theories completely wide of the mark as per usual?

Just want to add another huge thank you to all who posted, you've all helped greatly and I really appreciate it.

Charlie.

[synsei]

You were saying you have beanbags earlier Charlie. Humour me here, but try placing a couple in the corner to the right of your righthand speaker and take a listen after ;)

[Karma Train]

You were saying you have beanbags earlier Charlie. Humour me here, but try placing a couple in the corner to the right of your righthand speaker and take a listen after ;)

Well they're not beanbags as such more floor cushions but I've done as you asked and lobbed four of them (my entire supply) in the specified corner and as soon as Fourplay's bass player hits a low 'D'..........BOOOOOOOOOM!! :steam:
Sorry about that but I honestly did try and thanks for caring :)

[synsei]

Ah well. it was worth a try ;)

[Dingdong]

One of these will sort you out.

http://www.bd-audio.co.uk/dspeaker-anti-mode-2.html

[synsei]

Cash is an issue Mark, a situation I can empathise with ;)

[Dingdong]

Then flog the Minstrels and get some small Audionotes or something.

[Reffc]

I can really symathise with your predicament Charlie and know that not having a lot of cash precludes things like the antimode solution.

Not all is lost as you are already on the right track with your thinking! try and beg borrow or steal some sealed enclosure speakers all of which have a smoother LF response than most ported designs. you're right in that many manufacturers tune for around 60Hz as that is a typical living room resonant nodal point which gives a bass lift making the speakers sound muscular. The end result can often be un-tuneful and boomy. If you switch to a sealed enclosure you may get a speaker that is say 6 to 10dB down by 60Hz and the room response will bring that up by another 6 or so dB so the end result is that you'll get a far more balanced sound.

The reason Tannoys are mentioned by some are (misguided though they are) is that they hit on the right answer for the wrong reasons, much like your hifi emporium. SOME sealed box tannoys (12 and 15 inch) can be as much as 12 to 20dB down at 40Hz so despite having an effortless presentation and decent scale in SOME rooms, they'll be toppy sounding or thin in others. Room reinforcement means that their bass will sound louder than it actually is in anechoic situations. Same goes for other sealed box speakers.

You've hit what could be the best answer for you in not having to spoil the room with loads of bass traps or to splash cash on posh antimode devices if you audition as many sealed enclosure speakers as you can. They still produce bass at the frequencies you want, but in general, their roll off and LF response tends to be much smoother, plus their transient response better. Cracking conclusion you've hit on and one I support fully in your situation.
Food for thought?

[Karma Train]

I can really symathise with your predicament Charlie and know that not having a lot of cash precludes things like the antimode solution.

Not all is lost as you are already on the right track with your thinking! try and beg borrow or steal some sealed enclosure speakers all of which have a smoother LF response than most ported designs. you're right in that many manufacturers tune for around 60Hz as that is a typical living room resonant nodal point which gives a bass lift making the speakers sound muscular. The end result can often be un-tuneful and boomy. If you switch to a sealed enclosure you may get a speaker that is say 6 to 10dB down by 60Hz and the room response will bring that up by another 6 or so dB so the end result is that you'll get a far more balanced sound.

The reason Tannoys are mentioned by some are (misguided though they are) is that they hit on the right answer for the wrong reasons, much like your hifi emporium. SOME sealed box tannoys (12 and 15 inch) can be as much as 12 to 20dB down at 40Hz so despite having an effortless presentation and decent scale in SOME rooms, they'll be toppy sounding or thin in others. Room reinforcement means that their bass will sound louder than it actually is in anechoic situations. Same goes for other sealed box speakers.

You've hit what could be the best answer for you in not having to spoil the room with loads of bass traps or to splash cash on posh antimode devices if you audition as many sealed enclosure speakers as you can. They still produce bass at the frequencies you want, but in general, their roll off and LF response tends to be much smoother, plus their transient response better. Cracking conclusion you've hit on and one I support fully in your situation.
Food for thought?

Thank you so much for that long and considered post, I truly appreciate your contribution, not least for the fact that it kind of reinforced the way I was thinking and that doesn't happen very often believe me :)

I'm currently listening to a bit of 'smoove jazzzz' on my Royd Minstrels. I've got the ports facing outwards, I've got the ports bunged, I've got them on slabs aaaaaaand, I've got a 6db cut on my parametric at 73Hz and they sound OKish but ffs! that's a hell of a lot of tampering just to get them to almost behave themselves.

However, I'm so glad you agreed with my theory about sealed boxes with negligible bass response as I've just won myself an old pair of Celestion SL6Ss on FeePay which I intend to pick up tomorrow and give a listen. Every post I've ever read about those raves about their beautiful top and mid-range but complains that the bass needs a million watts to get to perform and as I've only got 70 watts a side hopefully they'll be meek and mild enough to not turn my room into a giant subwoofer! Only time will tell on that one I guess but I'm mildly optimistic.

And while we're on the subject of room taming, where did all the tone controls go all of a sudden? Something like the Quad 34's tilt control would have sorted a lot of this out for me I bet but of course my Primare is far too posh for such signal destroying devices....if the speakers work out an amp change might be on the cards later as well, in for a penny and all that :rolleyes:

Thanks again, for your message, it's really nice to feel understood, like I said, it's a rare treat indeed.

Charlie.

[Firebottle]

.. turn my room into a giant subwoofer!
Charlie.

Sounds like an accurate description unfortunately :(

Let us know how you get on with the Celestions.

:cool:Alan

[Rothchild]

I'd concur that it's a good idea for a solution to steer clear of ported speakers (as they tend to be tuned to push down around the range you're having problems with). The tamer bass response of an infinite baffle (with your EQ notch) will probably help.

Top tip for using EQ to notch problems, crank it up first and sweep the frequency around until you've go the point where the problem you're looking for sounds worst and then just start winding the gain back the other way to cut that problem out. Frequencies work in sympathy with each other too so you might get a good effect out of a filter with a few poles performing slightly less harsh cuts (I might start around 146Hz)

I know we've written it off, but just to say that for frequencies that low it wouldn't be a foam based acoustic solution (tiles etc). You need a proper bass trap, so either a panel / membrane / tuned helmholtz resonator or a serious mass of Rockwool (RW6, 60kg m3)

[Sonority]

I know cash is an issue, but you have defined the problem to a very good degree, and it is curable.
I personally do not think changing speakers will help that much - especially if you like what you have now.
GIK Acoustics are good to speak to and have a product that can be tuned to your problem area with some ease - their 'Scopus' traps.
If I may suggest at least emailing them and looking at what they can do? It may be the most cost effective and real solution available to you?
Just a thought.
http://gikacoustics.com/product-category/tuned-membrane-bass-traps/

[jandl100]

Behringer DEQ2496. http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DEQ2496.aspx
Sorted.

You can get them quite cheap. £200 or so.
There are a few on eBay at the moment. here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/dsc/i.html?_sop=10&LH_TitleDesc=1&_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=Behringer+DEQ2496&LH_PrefLoc=3&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_odkw=%28valve%2C+tube%29&_osacat=14970)

I had a similar problem with a particular pair of speakers - a bass bump of +15dB. Not nice, not nice at all.
The Behringer sorted it out just fine.

If you use it in pure digital mode it's pretty much transparent as well, but even the onboard DAC and ADC are pretty good.

-- you'd need half a ton of bass traps to attenuate bass that deep by that much - and it would likely spoil the rest of the bass - no way could you tune it to a narrow frequency band - an equalizer like the Behringer can do it with a prod of a couple of buttons and a twist of a couple of dials. ;)

[Rothchild]

I'll see your £200 hardware (and resist the potential for gear snobbery about that brand) and raise you a free solution:

http://www.yohng.com/software/foobarvst.html
A VST 'wrapper' for Foobar so you can use alternative EQ software.

http://rekkerd.org/matthew-lindsay-ncl-eq/

or

http://www.aixcoustic.com/index.php/Electri-Q-posihfopit/30/0/

You can easily implement something as or more powerful than the hardware box (which also has a number of unnecessary features).

[jandl100]

Yes, but the OP wants a solution that will work with CDs as well. Isn't some of that stuff all PC-oriented? :scratch:

And the Mathew Lindsay eq is only 10 band - sorry, that's not fine enough rez, imo - the Behringer has 31 bands, I think. ;)

[Rothchild]

I was under impression Foobar was being used (as that's the EQ that's referenced)? Sorry if I've missed something.

In principal OP only needs 1 band! It's not the number of bands it's what you can do with them. He just needs to be able adjust the frequency and the 'Q' (bandwidth) of the filter such that he can cut a notch at the problem freq (as he's done with the Foobar EQ)

You only need lots of bands if they're set to fixed frequencies and the more bands is what gives you the resolution to select the right frequency. Each strip on the lindsay EQ is adjustable for the full frequency range so could be used to tackle up to 10 room modes/nodes whatever frequency they were at.

[jandl100]

... Each strip on the lindsay EQ is adjustable for the full frequency range so could be used to tackle up to 10 room modes/nodes whatever frequency they were at.

Ah right, I hadn't realised that. :thumbsup:

[Karma Train]

OK, I am now officially in despair :drugs:

A nice drive to the seaside through multiple snow flurries later and I am now the 'proud' owner of a pair of moderately scratched :steam: Celestion SL6Ss speakers which you can hopefully see below....

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh114/Karma_train/Ebay%20Uploads/Setup_zps8206ed07.jpg

....and whilst everything I read about their delightful top end and mid-range is absolutely true, they are totally lovely with voices and acoustic guitars etc but as soon as the bass comes in....sweet Jebus, it's like a bleeding earthquake, so whoever said these were bass-light must have either been living in a granite cave or was a complete moron or quite possibly both!

The bass on these little 'sealed box' speakers is absolutely thunderous but strangely enough it's not the same kind of problem I was having with the Minstrels, whereas the Minstrels had a major port fart at around 73Hz the Celestions are just bass heavy, that's across the entire bottom end, so much so the only thing I can do to tame them is kill the bass end entirely as you can see from the graphic setting below....

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh114/Karma_train/EQ1_zps428a8a6d.jpg

In a way I suppose that's an improvement of sorts, insofar as there are no real peaks in the bass which certainly does suggest that sealed boxes work a damn sight better than ported designs in this room. I totally realise that having the speakers on such low stands (those in the picture are very temporary btw!) is not helping matters at all but I'm stuck with that I'm afraid.

So I guess what I need to try now is a tiny sealed box design which produces virtually no bass at all, the only speaker I know which fits that description is the Rega Kyte (although they do kind of have ports)....anybody know of any others?

Charlie :(

[jandl100]

:doh: -- :doh:

IT'S THE ROOM !!!

You knew that.

Why try new speakers? :nono:

The Behringer DEQ2496 (or other suitable eq device) would have you sorted, pronto. It'll get rid of the peak from your old speakers/room interaction. Job done.
Of course, you could get speakers with no bass at all --- but that isn't exactly an ideal solution, is it?

Ah well ..... wanders off muttering .........

[Macca]

Studio Spares classic monitors - I use them on the home cinema (with a sub). Sealed box with 8 inch mid-bass, very little output below 100 hz - about £100 brand new.

[Karma Train]

:doh: -- :doh:

IT'S THE ROOM !!!

You knew that.

Why try new speakers? :nono:

Ah well ..... wanders off muttering .........

Brilliant, made I :lol: that did.

But you see I'm a West Ham supporter, I don't feel right
unless I'm caught up in an endless spiral of hope followed
by bitter disappointment :mental:

Whilst taking your point entirely, the purchase of those Celestions
did at least prove that a sealed box design does mitigate the 73Hz peak a
great deal, they were just bass heavy but throughout all the lower frequencies not at one particular band.

So......I don't think I'm being completely bonkers by suggesting
that a sealed box speaker with very little bass extension might be a happier
match for this horrible room before all the electronic EQ tweakage is employed.

Thanks Macca, I shall check out the Studio Spares classic monitors but any other
suggestions for sealed box, minimal bass extension speakers would be
greatly appreciated, all I can think of is the Rega Kyte and possibly the
Linn Kan but there has to be some others Shirley?

[Reffc]

Nice speakers...always had a soft spot for those. They look fairly close to the walls. Have you tried pulling them out a bit?

I still think that the switch from ported to sealed cabs was the right move. As Jerry has pointed out though you do need to do more if you expect a flatter response. That Behringer EQ device should help dial out the troublesome bass nodes further. At least it sounds like you've reduced the hump in the upper bass region.

[Karma Train]

Nice speakers...always had a soft spot for those. They look fairly close to the walls. Have you tried pulling them out a bit?

I still think that the switch from ported to sealed cabs was the right move. As Jerry has pointed out though you do need to do more if you expect a flatter response. That Behringer EQ device should help dial out the troublesome bass nodes further. At least it sounds like you've reduced the hump in the upper bass region.

Believe me, I've tried them close to the walls, miles away from the walls, on bricks, on proper stands and even upside down....they're just way too bassy whatever I do with them but such a sweet top and mid-range, really lovely.

So if I could just find a sealed box speaker which didn't do bass I think I'd be well on my way towards getting the system just about listenable.

One other issue that's playing on my mind is this....

Obviously whatever speakers I end up with I'm going to have to eq the whole set up and the easiest and cheapest way of doing that is via a software solution, in fact with a parametric centred on the 73Hz and a 31 band graphic reducing the lower frequencies I can make the Royd Minstrels sound quite reasonable but what's bugging me is my CD collection.

I have a million CDs and a Primare CD player but obviously if I use that it doesn't go anywhere near the software eq, the only thing I can think of is playing my CDs via the Blu Ray drive in my PC and sending them through the eq that way or ripping them all to play from the HDD :doh:, so I guess my question is....would there be a noticeable drop in audio performance if I played CDs via the computer's optical drives as opposed to the dedicated CD player? because apart from the increased motor noise I can't really hear any to be truthful.

Anyhoo, I promise I'll bugger off soon and thank you all most kindly for your help thus far, it's really helped a lot just to have a bit of understanding around such matters....normal people just don't comprehend such life or death concerns :)

[Reffc]

Why complicate things? Just use an EQ and tune it as best you can by ear. No need to take anything out of the loop. If you must, you could always borrow some measuring kit or find an app for the in room measurement, use a test CD (playing different test tones) measure the room response, then play with the EQ. No need to use a PC to do that.

[synsei]

Would a graphic equalizer help? At least that way you could run everything through it...

[jandl100]

Brilliant, made I :lol: that did.

But you see I'm a West Ham supporter, I don't feel right
unless I'm caught up in an endless spiral of hope followed
by bitter disappointment :mental:


:lol:

Fairy muff - knock yourself out. :D

I mean, why go for an easy affordable complete solution when you can totally wreck your system and have the added joy of spending more money than you can afford as well! :ner: :eyebrows:

[technobear]

An obvious and cheap speaker candidate is the JPW Gold.

Another is the original Celestion 3 (not the mk II - that gained a port).

But really I agree with the others that no speaker is going to cure this problem. Some form of EQ is going to be necessary.

Ebay is usually awash with decent graphic equalisers.

The Behringer DEQ is also a good suggestion.

There are some more physical things you can try.

Pull that sofa away from the wall.

Use a coffee table or two to break up the floor/ceiling mode.

Buy 3 BESTA cabinets from IKEA and put the TV, Hifi and speakers in/on them and place this where your sofa is. Put the sofa opposite and pull it away from the wall. This layout will give you room for an extra chair or two or maybe some LACK tables - this all helps to break up the room and impede standing waves.

[surayne]

I know it might be a bit of a step, but if the room is always going to be a problem, what about a good set of headphones?