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daveyboy
04-04-2009, 17:36
Hi guys I am brand new to this forum and would appreciate some advice. I currently own the Beresford MK6/3 but am unsure what to do now. I gather that Stanley no longer offers the upgrade for the 6/4 and to be honest I have no idea what audio improvements that brings. However that said I have also noticed that the 7520 has been spoken of very highly within lots of forums include whf. However therein lies the problem, at the moment I play my music through the optical connection on my ps3 and listen to tv via the optical on the v plus box.

All of which I should add sounds very good but I don't know what to do now, I have been sold on the idea of upgrading this Beresford because of all the positive responses there have been to notable and very audible improvements between the 6/3 and 7520 but I would be losing one of the optical connections. I don't understand why one of these has been sacrificed and is actually something of a disincentive. To compound things, the v plus box has no digital coaxial input and it's my understanding that optical cables are the best means of listening to music.

So what do you think I should do? :confused: stick with what I have, maybe get a dacmagic or something else, thanks in advance! :)

daveyboy
05-04-2009, 16:01
no suggestions? :scratch:

The Vinyl Adventure
05-04-2009, 21:17
qed do a optical - coax adapter, if you look on ebay there are a lot of cheaper options too. i would use it on the less important source though

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/QED-Optical-to-Coaxial-Converter_W0QQitemZ290300472069QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item29030047 2069&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13 18

hope this helps

The Vinyl Adventure
05-04-2009, 21:22
also, a cheap optical cable will probably be better than a cheap coax but good coax, from what i understand, dont ask me why, will be better than a good optical.
i always use coax where possible

daveyboy
05-04-2009, 21:58
Thanks mate, so have you heard both the dacmagic and new beresford?

The Vinyl Adventure
05-04-2009, 23:06
no i just bought the beresford 7520. i read a lot of positive reports on it and with the built in headphone amp and output options it is much more versitile.
it dioes sound really good too
i cant imagine that the dacmagic is better but im fairly certain that it is possible to send back both for your money back. that way you can try both and send the one you like less back

Tom472
06-04-2009, 13:39
As far as I understand it, optical will rarely be better than coax (although both can give poor results). The reason is that the optical interface isn't really suitable for the bandwidth required by an S/PDIF signal.

If you think of an audio signal going up to 20kHz, you wouldn't want to send that through a component only suitable for say 10kHz so that it cut out the high frequency content of the music. The same is true for digital, the signal is around 30MHz (I think) which is more than the optical interface is generally capable of, the result is that the square wave becomes more of a rounded wave and so the high/low trigger points aren't time-accurate, which basically means jitter unless the signal is very effectively re-clocked.

You get the same effect with coax due to the capacitance of the cable etc, but it's generally much better.

(Apologies if some of the science above is incorrect.)
Tom

The Vinyl Adventure
06-04-2009, 15:23
yeah that unfortunatly means not a great deal to me to me but it does coralate with what i have been led to belive so thums up i guess
the shop i help out in we sell people £9.99 optical cables to replace the only slightly better than bell wire coax that comes with the cheap sony all in one suround kits. beond that we recomend that people buy coax. i guess thats because we dont sell any coax cables for £9.99 and if (which they usually do) people turn their noses up at spending £25 on a qed coax £9.99 optical the only alternative

Tom472
06-04-2009, 16:23
Yeah that makes sense, like you say coax has to be done properly too - cheap bell wire designed to carry audio (or something else) would have the same bandwidth limiting effect on a high frequency digital signal (even worse for multichannel Dolby encoded signals than standard S/PDIF).
Forgot to mention that in terms of coax, if you have the option of BNC, AES-EBU (i.e. the XLR type connector) or I2S (the network cable type connector) then that too is preferable to the standard RCA coax connectors.
Cheers
Tom

The Vinyl Adventure
06-04-2009, 16:51
im not sure that virgin plus boxes or ps3's are equipped with such connections ;)

NRG
06-04-2009, 17:24
Yeah that makes sense, like you say coax has to be done properly too - cheap bell wire designed to carry audio (or something else) would have the same bandwidth limiting effect on a high frequency digital signal (even worse for multichannel Dolby encoded signals than standard S/PDIF).
Forgot to mention that in terms of coax, if you have the option of BNC, AES-EBU (i.e. the XLR type connector) or I2S (the network cable type connector) then that too is preferable to the standard RCA coax connectors.
Cheers
Tom

Don't you mean I2C? not the same as I2S that is used internally to the DAC over a few cm of wire/track. The AES3 / SPDIF data transmission rate is 64x whatever the sampling Fq is so 64x 44.1 = approx 2.8Mbs or 2.8Mhz - more or less as it dosen't quite work out like this in practice due to the biphase coding used.

As for Toslink sound quality all I can say is its not that it is optical as such but the way it's implemented with low cost tx and rx and cables with poor refractive capability.

daveyboy
07-04-2009, 13:40
Thanks for the replies guys, makes interesting reading :)

jandl100
09-04-2009, 09:07
Hi daveyboy

I do wonder why you think your Beresford 6/3 needs upgrading. What equipment do you use it with? My experience of Beresford DACs is that they are something of a giant killer, and I wouldn't be surprised if you can get more of an improvement by upgrading something else!

daveyboy
09-04-2009, 16:40
Ah what can I say, I think it sounds excellent but on whf forums and other forums I have read that there is a big difference between the 6/3 and the new Beresford. Now I might be being a wee bit naive of course and being drawn into the hype :lolsign: but as dac's are relatively cheap, it seems the best thing to do. I own a pair of AE Neo 3's, a NAD C352 amplifier and I play my music via my ps3 which has an external hdd attached to it. Now I am personally of the opinion that I would need to spent a lot more on either the amp or speakers to improve what I already have and therefore if I could get a substantial improvement by changing to a different dac, then I am all for it :)

Gazjam
09-04-2009, 16:49
Hi,

I've the new 7520 and it sounded significantly better than my MK6/FOUR (with latest mods), so I would think it would better the 6/3.

Thats said, you gotta ask yourself, are you unhappy with the sound you have?

The newer Dac WILL sound better, but you will probably get more change from upgrading speakers (or even moving them about the room a bit - try it!) than upgrading your Dac.

Or just buy more red wine and CDs? :)

daveyboy
09-04-2009, 17:11
Ah see another culprit! of what I was talking about :lolsign:. I am not unhappy with the sound at all but it comes down to if i can get a significant improvement for not much money, then I am more open to it. I am sure I can better the AE Neo 3's for instance but not for less than 400.00. It does sound superb, there is no doubt about that but then it comes to comparisons grrrr

daveyboy
20-04-2009, 14:28
Well I think the childish ignorance of the manufacturer has made my point up for me, I will stick with what I have. I simply asked with their being a described big difference between the opamps recommended, why he was using inferior op amps and of course I got a response which ignored the other questions and merely pointed out to me that these are the same which were used in previous dac's costing a lot more etc.

I am really not in the least bit impressed

Marco
20-04-2009, 18:41
Well I think the childish ignorance of the manufacturer has made my point up for me, I will stick with what I have. I simply asked with their being a described big difference between the opamps recommended, why he was using inferior op amps and of course I got a response which ignored the other questions and merely pointed out to me that these are the same which were used in previous dac's costing a lot more etc.


Davey, where did this occur? I can see no evidence of it, and Stan is also usually very helpful.

Marco.

trailer
20-04-2009, 19:18
And trying out a few different op-amps for yourself is hardly that much of a deal.

Covenant
20-04-2009, 20:13
You have to be realistic, step back and look at it from a manufacturers point of view. Yes Stan could have put more expensive op-amps in plus very high quality caps, processors and probably a dozen other bits. It would have lifted it completely out of the price bracket which he was aiming for.
In fitting sockets he has made provision for the relatively few people who can be bothered to open the lid and educated a few heathens like me a little along the way.
If you dont like his approach fair enough. Go for one of the big name brands and impress your friends, it wont impress us.

daveyboy
20-04-2009, 22:28
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveyboy
Hi Stan I have a few questions for you if you don't mind.

I would like to know how much you offer this for to the members of this forum.

Also I would like to know in what respects it improves on MK6/3 and why it improves on them.

I have noticed that on the Beresford there is only one optical input, but it's my understanding that you recommend optical? This is problematic because I have PS3 which I use for optical connection but now have a v plus box also.

Also it seems to a case that replacing the op amps results in a marked improvement, but if it's so apparent, why did you fit inferior op amps in the first place?

Thanks
David
Who said I fitted inferior opamps? The ones fitted to the TC-7520 are the same ones fitted to items like the £1000 DAC1 USB and many five and six figures studio mixing decks.

Stan

I then emailed again clarifying what I meant once again (clearly it was not intended as an insult) just purely stating that it's obviously inferior to the amp which people have upgraded it with and asked if he could answer my other questions and sure enough, no further responses from him.

Dougr33
20-04-2009, 22:43
just off the top of my annoying head:
-you start off as a new member asking what your prize is
-you then show that you've not taken the time to read or search the many posts explaining the intended improvements
-then you imply that it's not right for you anyway due to the inadequate number of optical inputs... perhaps since you've been so nice so far he'll build you a special one
-(clearly it was not intended as an insult) belies your familiarity with the difficulties with nuance in email/forum-posts. "inferior" is a pretty loaded word. Again, you could have read previous explanations. You could have asked instead why he didn't use op amps costing 10X the price. That of course would have answered your own question... every single part in the box could have been more expensive and to some audible advantage. Would you have paid $500 for it?

Sure enough, no further responses from him.

(if this in any way sounds harsh, it's merely due to the difficulties with nuance in email/forum-posts);)

The Grand Wazoo
20-04-2009, 23:16
I hate to seem harsh...........but...............Hear, hear. Well said.

A little decorum and tact goes a long way. You do come across as only being here for getting a good deal on something.

daveyboy
20-04-2009, 23:21
Nothing wrong with that is there? I have been an owner of a Beresford for a while and noticed on here that a different price could be offered to members. Now if there was mentioning of a certain number of posts before you could ask, then fair enough but there wasn't and i was intrigued about this new amp.

I have read the improvements mentioned by individuals but what was I meant to do? read through every single post as a member before asking the question. I wanted to ask directly to the man who knows.

Perhaps since I have been nice? my questions were based on intrigue. As for the optical cables comment it was me airing my thoughts but again not intended as a put down, I was hoping that he would be able to sell it to me "in marketing terms"

Again since people have described what a big improvement those op amps are over the ones fitted, then they are inferior. You might not like the word but it's meaning is no different than not as good as and since we are not in the playground, then I used what I used. Perhaps there is a difficulty in interpreting words from posts but the response was hardly constructive.

I doubt the recommended op amps upgrade which cost about 7.30 sterling from ebay is 10 times the price of the ones fitted,, perhaps you might want to keep to a factual basis?

Indeed the dac could have been more expensive but again I was talking about a very cheap upgrade which seems to result in very big gains and therefore with it being so cheap I like many people on whf forums including members of staff themselves asked the question why.

Indeed there was no further response from him and like I said this is hardly constructive. I am a fan of the Beresford dac's but just because I am a fan of the Beresford dac's does not mean that I should not be permitted to ask critical questions.

daveyboy
20-04-2009, 23:28
I hate to seem harsh...........but...............Hear, hear. Well said.

A little decorum and tact goes a long way. You do come across as only being here for getting a good deal on something.

It is the fact that the Beresford was discussed that drew me to this forum yes but clearly your post is based on presumption. I am a member of other hi fi forums to and have posted hundreds of times on them. I have no motivation to do that other than the fact that I have an affinity with hi fi.

Dougr33
20-04-2009, 23:39
I doubt the recommended op amps upgrade which cost about 7.30 sterling from ebay is 10 times the price of the ones fitted,, perhaps you might want to keep to a factual basis?


I recall Stan saying they were 36 pence each.

It's okay to defend your communication methods, but the proof is in the pudding, eh?

daveyboy
20-04-2009, 23:46
You mean for an individual buyer the opamps would cost 36p? I don't think so. Clearly this is the price it cost him, now by all means prove me wrong. However supposing this is the price they cost for individual buyers, since the op amps are supposedly such a revelation, and considering that presumably these would be bulk bought for a few quid extra (the dac itself) surely it would have made sense to fit them instead.

However on the first point, I would like you to clarify what 36p meant in reality. If you are right on that score, or indeed it costs less than a pound even for individual buyers, then clearly I am wrong.

Dougr33
20-04-2009, 23:55
I'm going to bed now. The exact ratio of the cost of the current and suggested replacement op amps wasn't my point. My point was the possible (but not guaranteed) better outcome by perhaps expressing your question in ways that didn't include the word "inferior". And yes... technically the cheap amp is inferior to the far more expensive ones. Again, though, taste the pudding.

And don't waste your time trying to prove anything to me.. I'm not worthy!

leo
20-04-2009, 23:58
NE5532's are actually not as bad as what people make out, their classed as the industry standard, these are used in a lot of pro gear as well as quite a few well respected CDP's etc

IMO NE5532 is a safe op-amp which do a fair job in a wide range of gear, sure there is much better out there but these cost more, also some of the more expensive higher spec op-amps do not suit everyone or every application

The Grand Wazoo
21-04-2009, 00:00
Forgive me, but as a regular on this forum, your only motive appears to be to make a saving.

That may not be the case, but that's what it looks like.

As a regular poster on other forums, you must surely realise that, given that the only medium we have for communication is our choice of words, then those words should be carefully chosen...........I would like to humbly suggest that you have not carefully chosen your words.

I've no Beresford axe to grind. I don't own any of Stan's products, nor do I intend to. I have never met him, nor have I directly addressed him on any subject on The Art of Sound, or for that matter, by any other means. I'm only expressing what your posts appear to convey.

Sorry, but the fact is that if you don't like what Beresford offers, or if you expect something that's not offered, then he's not your man is he?.

He's pitching to a particular market, and on the way has gathered some staunch adherants. His business (and never forget that he's running a business in the worst of times), unlike almost every other hi-fi company is open enough to express how the interested and motivated can improve upon what he has to offer. That is an offer unmatched........anywhere.

I fear you've pissed in your own cornflakes , my friend.

leo
21-04-2009, 00:04
BTW, today so called greatest op-amp may be discontinued in a few months where as the old work horse will still be around in years to come, still being mocked as crap against newer stuff:lol:

NRG
21-04-2009, 06:34
Surley not!.....not the great O....P....A....6....2....7.... :lolsign:

daveyboy
21-04-2009, 13:05
Pissing in my cornflakes lol I like that!. However not at all, it just means that I will wait until this dac becomes available second hand before making a decision about purchasing it. As for my motives for joining this forum, I will reply (like i did yesterday) to any threads which interest me.

Marco
21-04-2009, 13:43
I will reply (like i did yesterday) to any threads which interest me.


You can only do that if I allow you the privilege, so behave! ;)

Marco.