View Full Version : Banners belonging to trade members and acceptable levels of self-promotion
Audioman
18-03-2013, 10:38
{Discussion moved from elsewhere}
Just a suggestion while the subject of self-promotion rears it's ugly head. The simple solution would be to ban company banners from signatures and direct links in posts to the posters own commercial site. Only exception being in the 'Trade Impressions' section. Frankly I do find this annoying and actually would make me look elsewhere if I was interested in the same or similar product being 'promoted'. Obviously this would not affect independent recommendations of a particular product or company by members based on their own unbiased experience.
I personally don't see a problem with vendor's banners, since they clearly have a trade account so are declaring their interest up front. As Marco has already said, it's the blatant marketing without contribution that annoys.
It's also technically impossible to have different sigs for different areas of the forum, making it somewhat difficult for vendors to remember to use the appropriate sig.
MikeMusic
18-03-2013, 11:08
I personally don't see a problem with vendor's banners, since they clearly have a trade account so are declaring their interest up front. As Marco has already said, it's the blatant marketing without contribution that annoys.
It's also technically impossible to have different sigs for different areas of the forum, making it somewhat difficult for vendors to remember to use the appropriate sig.
Agreed
Seems to me there is a grey area which starts with
I think the answer to your problem could be the xx item we could sell you - in context with the question or statement
and ends with
Doesn't matter what you think or say you have to buy our wonderful item xx to which there is no alternative. Send money now
Which could also be out of context
EG Pushing an interconnect for what is definitely a issue with something else
Audioman
18-03-2013, 11:35
I personally don't see a problem with vendor's banners, since they clearly have a trade account so are declaring their interest up front. As Marco has already said, it's the blatant marketing without contribution that annoys.
It's also technically impossible to have different sigs for different areas of the forum, making it somewhat difficult for vendors to remember to use the appropriate sig.
I do see a problem frankly. These banners are getting too large and in your face. An obvious and far too blatant attempt at self promotion (even if unintentional). They can just leave their trade name in the sig so we know who they are. Large prominent banners can be entered under the text of any post promoting a product in the trade section. A compromise may be to allow a small logo in the signature. This is not a commercial site and I don't see why traders should be allowed to expand their business on the back of it even if some see it as good for the hi-fi industry. This is not a personal attack on anyone who has been criticised here but a general principle that should be adhered to.
Fair comments, Paul, and noted. It's certainly the reason why you'll never see huge banners from trade members here, advertising their businesses, flagging up the site's homepage, as is the case on other forums - or indeed any kind of blatant, and (IMO) rather vulgar, advertising. A) I don't like how it looks, and b) it gives the impression that the trade member's businesses, advertised on said banners, have been singled out favourably by the forum management.
It smacks of cliques and back-handers, and that, for me, is a BIG no-no! :nono:
Everyone is treated equally here, both ordinary members and trade members. There is no favouritism. I should point out that my intention has never been to seek to gain financially from owning this site (that was never the raison d'etre for creating AoS). I have a picture framing and art supplies business for that purpose. We generate a small amount of income from Google Ads, etc, which pays the running costs of the site - that's it.
Therefore, AoS will never be commercially-led, and nor will the focus of its existence be to profit from its advertisers, or financially, in any other way. We are also not here to solely or mainly support the best commercial interests of the audio industry, or to pander to the bullshit of industry politics. AoS is an independent, free-thinking, primarily 'punters first' site, for like-minded audio and music enthusiasts to share their collective experiences, and in turn, mutually gain useful knowledge, whilst having fun along the way - and that, folks, is the way it will stay!
Your points, Paul, about banners on signatures have been noted, and will be duly considered, although it's unlikely at this stage if we'll be imposing the restrictions you've outlined, in that respect. We prefer instead to moderate with a light touch and allow people to use their own discretion, within reason, as to what is and isn't acceptable, in terms of their signatures.
As far as trade members go, how they conduct themselves here, over a period of time, is the best indicator of all, as to their motivation for being a member of this forum, which will enable our other members to assess whether they wish to use the services of a particular trader, or not. Ultimately, the trade members here who embrace the aspect of being part of a community, and give of themselves, rather than merely running a business, will always get the most from their membership of AoS.
Marco.
Beechwoods
18-03-2013, 13:41
It's worth saying that members can switch off the display of Signatures within their UserCP - under 'Edit Options > Thread Display Options' I believe.
Marco and Martin are right that all members, Trade and otherwise have the same signature restrictions, and unfortunately it's not possible to have large sigs in certain forums and small ones elsewhere.
Personally I am against banners and over indulgent system listings eh Marco:D , if a member asks a direct question then the dealer should reply, however pushing your product (s) at every opportunity just gives other trade members a bad vibe within that forum
Time is a valuable commodity for everyone, however being helpful costs nothing.
They are many non trade member on here who are very helpful and genuine, dealers who actually work for a living may not have enough time straight away to reply however the AOS community is buoyant and happy one.
The words here which spring to mind harmonious balance
Personally I am against banners and over indulgent system listings eh Marco:D
:lol: :eyebrows:
Good evening, Tony.
The reason I do that is because I almost never read people's profiles, where system lists technically should be put, and imagine that I'm not alone in that respect, therefore I list my full system in my signature, so that others, who may be interested, can see (at a glance) what gear, cables, stands, etc, I'm using. I go into detail simply to pre-empt the need for asking any such questions! ;)
if a member asks a direct question then the dealer should reply, however pushing your product (s) at every opportunity just gives other trade members a bad vibe within that forum.
Absolutely. However, for some people, that skill comes more naturally to them than others.
Time is a valuable commodity for everyone, however being helpful costs nothing.
Indeed - I also suspect that some traders are taking on much more work than they can realistically handle, to the extent that they've almost got no time to blink!
Time is indeed a very valuable commodity - and the most precious of that time is spent in the company of our loved ones, not working 24/7. There is much more to life than money or material possessions. I learned that years ago.
Too many of us, in that respect, have got our priorities wrong these days. Factually, stress is a bigger killer than many known diseases, and undoubtedly, many people today lead way too stressful lives, often chasing an impossible dream.
They are many non trade member on here who are very helpful and genuine, dealers who actually work for a living may not have enough time straight away to reply however the AOS community is buoyant and happy one.
Cheers - I totally agree! The latter is one of the things we've all worked hard to achieve :)
Marco.
I'm happy to delete my sig/banner if it offends - or modify it to be more abstract (or less bothersome). I only made it as a bit of fun (though I do quite like it myself). If anyone would rather not complain publicly, please PM me, I honestly don't mind.
I've significantly 'stepped back' my level of posting, so hopefully not too grating; I can see how it may be viewed otherwise though.
There's nothing wrong with your banner/sig, Mark, as far as I'm concerned - and you're certainly not guilty of over-promoting yourself.
Marco.
Well, I hope not - it's not easy to separate ones life/hobby/interests though when they are all so closely entwined as they are with myself these days (I'm sure that is true of others too).
Anyway, perhaps others feel more strongly than you do about such issues and my offer still stands.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest, Mark, and is a good visual cue/reminder of who you are.
Although not directly connected to this issue, I have noted a recent trend by certain traders to promote multiple deals in the trade section as individual listings. Last weekend I think it was, one trader posted 13 individual listings late on Sunday evening when it would have been more sensible to create one listing for all 13 products. I left a comment to that effect.
If you want to see a classic example of blatant spamming on aos, look at this http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18764
Does anyone read these posts? Does the owner ever contribute anything?
Hi Martin,
I know where you're coming from, but some trade members will simply take advantage of our free advertising, without offering anything much in return. It's simply the nature of the beast.
As long as it's only happening in the trade room, it isn't a problem. However, we expect more from our regulars, and generally they oblige :)
Marco.
How does that fit in with our philosophy on non-trade members then Marco? It is frowned upon for new members to join just to flog or buy an item, surely it should be the same for trade members? Yes you can join AoS to promote your business however we expect you to contribute on the general forum too, or the door is over there... ;)
Yes, I agree, Dave, but we also have to accept that some trade members, who are perfectly nice people and real enthusiasts, simply don't have time to post on the forum, out with of the trade room. I know personally of those who fall exactly into that category.
Therefore, we cut them a little slack. Those guys are running full-time businesses selling audio equipment, unlike others who join simply to flog their unwanted goods, never to be seen again, and so different rules apply :)
Marco.
StanleyB
19-03-2013, 10:40
There are alternative forums available where the trade cannot mention their products outside of the trade section. So anyone who feels offended by trade members mentioning their own gear on AoS is not short of alternative choices.
The problem I have is with members who joined AoS years after it was established, and then trying to get the forum to conform to the sometimes tyrannical straight jackets other forums have adopted. I don't know what their agenda is, but it smacks of an oppressive nature. As far as I know AoS became popular world wide because of its alternative take on the way a forum should be run. Many cottage trade members like myself did not let the chance go by to promote AoS by mentioning it to their customers and even placing a link to AoS on their site. Some audio products had their first world wide exclusive mention on AoS.
As a matter of fact, some moderators and admins on AoS were first customers of AoS trade members, before being pointed to this forum and ended up getting press-ganged into sharing the workload with Marco.
I personally don't care if someone doesn't buy a product of mine based on the fact that I mentioned it on AoS outside the trade section. A large part of my research and development relies on interacting with people who have a problem and are looking for a product that can provide a solution. Preferably at a price that is within one's ability to afford it. I started off the AoS member's discount which is now widely available from most trade members. A couple of trade members started their own unique AoS members incentives, such as free give aways, etc. which was then taken up by others. I don't see any public condemnation of those contributions by the trade.
But I can fully understand if some trade members were deterred from posting on AoS for the same reason that this thread implies. It is quite easy to intimidate well meaning posters who also happen to be making a living from selling audio products. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the level of posts from trade members has seen a decline because of the attitude expressed towards their contributions outside of the trade section.
Stan I think you get the balance right and provide a great upgrade info to the products many people here who use your equipment as well as being active in other debates
Surely it is best to encourage trade/dealers to make their banners as large and colourful as possible so that punters have some sort of chance of making an informed interpretation of the advice/recommendations given.
More worrying, from my point of view, is trawling around to try to work out which contributors (without a trade account) have some sort of unpublicised connection with the trade members :bonk:
Guy
StanleyB
19-03-2013, 22:39
More worrying, from my point of view, is trawling around to try to work out which contributors (without a trade account) have some sort of unpublicised connection with the trade members
See my post from this morning. Many contributors are here because of encouragement from trade members to join up. If you find pleasure in trawling about trying to work out which contributors have some sort of unpublicised connection with trade members then I would suggest that you assume that it is in excess of 75%. Quite a few people here own gear that was bought off a trade member on AoS. Straight away you have a connection between contributor and trade member. Why that should be more worrying is a mystery to me. Unless we resort to not allowing contributions from anyone who has bought a piece of kit from a trade member?
More worrying, from my point of view, is trawling around to try to work out which contributors (without a trade account) have some sort of unpublicised connection with the trade members :bonk:
Well, I'm not aware of any Guy, but if they're unpublicised I don't suppose I would! :lol: Plenty of us have friendships or have socialised with "trade" members, though - in the main, most traders who stick around are hifi and music enthusiasts first and foremost, and I doubt we have many members with hidden agendas - despite what you might read "elsewhere on the web" :eyebrows:
At least this is a Free Trade Zone and not a monopoly Guy... :ner:
At least this is a Free Trade Zone and not a monopoly Guy... :ner:
new member and still waiting to be convinced :rolleyes:
If you find pleasure in trawling about trying to work out which contributors have some sort of unpublicised connection with trade members then I would suggest that you assume that it is in excess of 75%.
Life's too short to seek "pleasure" in that way (allthough whatever turns you on I suppose :whippin:). But in a relatively short time it has been interesting to see who are friends.
All the best. Guy.
StanleyB
19-03-2013, 23:04
Friends? This ain't Facebook or Twitter :lol:.
new member and still waiting to be convinced :rolleyes:
Hi Guy,
How's it going? I hope you are well :)
What is it exactly you're waiting to be convinced of? I'll try and help.
Marco.
new member and still waiting to be convinced :rolleyes:
Given where you've come from and your friends on the other forum, I guess that's not a surprise, though totally unfounded in my opinion.
As an example Guy, Stanley Beresford and I have had a recent falling out over an issue. We both have entrenched opinions but neither of us are at each others throats about it and neither of us have been chucked off the forum because of it. It was and is a disagreement, that's all. On AoS members have that luxury as long as it does not descend into a slanging match. On certain forums the result would be very different... :eyebrows:
Just read what members say and don't be looking for mysterious 'connections' that don't exist. You may as well read my equipment list below and assume that I have a connection with each of the manufacturers. Well I do, I own a piece of their kit. So what?
Martin, it's time to sing the song....
'Shill-shillery, shill-shillery, shill-shill, sheroo...' You know the tune!
BGCmVDl46rY
:eyebrows: :D
Marco.
Marco, you are a very naughty boy!!! :rfl:
As an example Guy, Stanley Beresford and I have had a recent falling out over an issue. We both have entrenched opinions but neither of us are at each others throats about it and neither of us have been chucked off the forum because of it. It was and is a disagreement, that's all. On AoS members have that luxury as long as it does not descend into a slanging match. On certain forums the result would be very different... :eyebrows:
Hi Synsei,
Well being a fairly awkward/opinionated person myself, I have had arguments/disagreements regarding the EU, British empire, Linn, Naim and various other little things on HiFi Subjectivist and the most I have ever suffered is some (gentle) ribbing.
So I have to assume that you are thinking other places, when you refer to "certain forums" - Pink fish; some "situation engineer" responding with personal abuse to a simple question, which was asked of a friend of his.
Naim forum; having post removed for reference to "ebay" (not even an attempt to sell anything).
So far, so good here (if a bit paranoid if anything with a link to HFS surfaces :lol: )
Best wishes. Guy
Given where you've come from and your friends on the other forum, I guess that's not a surprise, though totally unfounded in my opinion.
Sorry but your opininion seems to be unfounded, rather presumptious as well . I have no "friends" on where I've come from. People I exchange views with, and some who I like reading post from, absolutely.
See previous post re paranoia :eek:
Guy
Hi Marco,
thanks for your good wishes, all fine as far as I am concerned, hope you are well too.
I seem to be noticing that you are beginning to get a bit "pissed off" with trade members not contributing much else to the forum though.
All the best. Guy
Some trade members and others of "us" no longer directly in the industry have many years of experience making, selling, owning and servicing much audio gear of many types and are able to comment with knowledge and expertise on a wide range of topics, whereas others are no doubt good business-people looking to realise a good opportunity when they see one, especially in the add-ons market, but may not be able to discuss much outside of their business-areas. I'm sure there's a good many in the middle too to be fair and I hope I'm not just stirring the pot in mentioning this..
Hi Guy,
Hi Marco,
thanks for your good wishes, all fine as far as I am concerned, hope you are well too.
We're fine, thanks - just a bit pissed off being snowed in. The scene at our house, as shown in my avatar, hasn't changed much in the last three days! You don't realise just how much you rely on your car, until you can't use it....
However, luckily, we had plenty of provisions in, and so have been using our stocks up until we can get to the shops again. We're going to try and dig the car out today and clear the driveway, so we can reach civilisation :D
That'll be quite a task, though, as the driveway is about 40 yards long and is currently covered in about three feet of snow, and the area around the car is not much better! Still, the exercise will give us a nice appetite for lunch!! Thank goodness we can mong out in front of the fire afterwards:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3193/img0112lt.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/145/img0112lt.jpg/)
You can't beat a log fire for toasting yer tootsies - and the cats seem to agree! :)
I seem to be noticing that you are beginning to get a bit "pissed off" with trade members not contributing much else to the forum though.
Yup, a bit... That's why botties sometimes have to be spanked, in the nicest possible way, in order to 'refocus' some people's attention! :spank: ;)
Marco.
So where's young Emrys then - toasting his tummy in front of the fire? :lol:
Sleeping, as usual, Dave! He's the proverbial wee sleepy head :D
Marco.
What speakers are those Marco? A new acquisition?
(Have you tried the Radford into your Tannoy/Lockwoods yet?)
Cheers
Hi Barry,
It's an old picture, matey. Those are my Celestion Ditton 15XRs, which you've heard before. The bigger 66s now live there.
Not had a chance to hook your amp up yet to my system - too many things going on at the moment to distract me, namely digging ourselves out of the snow! ;)
If I don't get a chance to do it before you come up, we can try it when you pop over, and then listen together :)
Marco.
Hi Barry,
It's an old picture, matey. Those are my Celestion Ditton 15XRs, which you've heard before. The bigger 66s now live there.
Not had a chance to hook your amp up yet to my system - too many things going on at the moment to distract me, namely digging ourselves out of the snow! ;)
If I don't get a chance to do it before you come up, we can try it when you pop over, and then listen together :)
Marco.
No problem, I can see from your photos that you have other things to distract you! :eek: The snow here is clearing and the roads are clear, but I'm not sure how things will be elsewhere in the country towards the end of the week.
In fact I may well abandon my plans to come up your way over Easter and defer arrangements to when it (hopefully) becomes a little warmer; say mid April.
I'm sure I could bribe you with a decent bottle of wine. ;)
Keep warm .....
To add to what others have said on here, I hope that my inclusion of my rather modest banner causes no offence. I would rather that folk knew who I was (ie no hidden agendas) but also that I do try and contribute to the general forum. I think that like some other trade members here, on balance, far more of my posts have been in general discussion with no self promotion evident as an attempt to be an inclusive and worthwhile member of AoS.
In the current economic climate, small cottage industries like my own find things difficult enough and it's refreshing to be part of a forum which doesn't treat you as the devil incarnate just because you happen to have "trade" after your name. The same cannot be said for some other forums which appear to be openly hostile to the very people who are involved in the research, development and ultimately supply of the kit that feeds their hobby!
I can understand where over promotion by some trade members is frowned upon as it does not seemingly sit well with the ethos or purpose of the forum, but to be fair, this type of activity does seem to be limited to a small minority. The other thing that I'm mindful of is that there are a fair few trade members on here who, like myself, do all their own work and sell directly, and that establishing solid reputations of which good customer service and helpful nature hopefully is reflected in some of the contributions to the forum. I think that there's room for all providing that people are honest and willing to contribute. It's a strength of AoS in my book that it is so accommodating and that it doesn't have over restrictive rules on the one hand, but also that it is not over commercialised on the other. Once a forum goes down that commercialised route I think that it tends to lose something of it's original ethos not to mention trust between trade and non-trade members and that's a great shame. Long may AoS continue in it's present well balanced form.
It doesn't bother me, Paul.
I'd agree too, group hug! :grouphug:
StanleyB
03-04-2013, 19:55
Let's face it: should we let one or two dissenting voices spoil the fun of an operation that has kept the forum at the forefront of progress? Every society has its own grumpy old men.
isuckedmandelsonslemons
04-04-2013, 05:09
Paul (Reffc) I'd say you certainly err on the right side of the line. Your logo is understated and you seem to contribute to the forum. Well done, I think you conduct yourself admirably.
Paul, you're a textbook example of what we expect from our trade members here, so keep up the good work, mate! :)
Marco.
Thanks chaps...I'll carry on as-is in that case :cool:
JazzBones
04-04-2013, 10:13
Let's face it: should we let one or two dissenting voices spoil the fun of an operation that has kept the forum at the forefront of progress? Every society has its own grumpy old men.
Whole heartedly with you on this one StanleyB, no one is forcing you or I to read these particular posts like no one forces a newspaper reader to read the adverts therein, yep I know that adverts in a newspaper help towards funding publication and continuity. Personally, every bit of info, or part thereof, may point me in the direction of a product I would like.
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